Dragonbones

{helpme}

(see bottom for help me request)

Welcome

Hello, Dragonbones, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. If you are stuck, and looking for help, please come to the Newcomers help page, where experienced Wikipedians can answer any queries you have! Or, you can just type {{helpme}} on your user page, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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Chinese characters

I saw your note on the simplification of Chinese characters (many being pre-20th century). I agree that the current statement is rather broad brush. If you want a more sophisticated explanation, why not Be Bold! (a principle of Wikipedia) and make the changes yourself?

Bathrobe 01:49, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Dragonbones 你好！ 欢迎你来Wikipedia. 我看你的Userpage text... hehe, 我的中文还不好 Well I just wanted to ask if you're interest to participate in my Project since I read that you are also dissapointed in the handling of Chinese things in Wikipedia. I'd be happy if you join. User:LiangHH/Chinese Romanization Saludos de Alemania. 亮HH 09:15, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi Dragonbones. Your referencing and source noting is detailed and exemplary. Click on my name and look at my user contributions in regard to Chinese topics I have written and feel free to expand and correct. I notice your detail about oracle bones in the article on stroke order (which seems highly inappropriate hidden away only on the talk page). May I suggest you expand the section on oracle script. I am in the process of reading Keightley's Sources of Shang History at present. However, I'm too busy to edit much on wiki anymore. As it seems you have the same interests in this direction as I have, I wish you well. Dylanwhs 19:49, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Goose-tail

Calligrapher Qu Leilei called it a 'goose-tail' stroke when I had a calligraphy workshop with him on the 18th March at the Royal Academy of Arts in London at the Three Emperors exhibition. He also called the beginning backward stroke 'silken-hands' or something which I can't remember so I didn't put that in there. That's why I put it there; because he called it that so it must be a correct term for the stroke. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 17:36, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Tone marks debate

The tone marks debate has been moved to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Titles of articles to include tone marks?. While I don't necessarily agree with your position, I think you should be aware that the debate is ongoing.

Kelvinc 05:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Historical Atlas of China

Hey! I had did a few maps, please visit my site and correct me I'm wrong [1]. You are welcome! 08:41, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Send your regards ... Thanks!

Warning placement

Yes, there is a standard for placement of vandalism warnings. They should go on the talk page only. Let me know if you have any other questions. — Scm83x ^{hook 'em} 06:24, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Please unblock

Please unblock ASAP so that I can remove racist vandalism to my user page and continue with my editing work. The block was presumably just an error. In the meantime, could sb (even non-admin.) pls revert the vandalism to my user page ASAP and report the vandal? Thanks,Dragonbones 02:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

You aren't blocked, so there is no error in the block. What you maybe is using the same IP as someone who is blocked, so either the IP address is blocked or you got caught by the auto blocker. The block message gives the details, since we don't mind read you need to tell us that detail before we can do anything. --pgk^(talk) 10:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks; finally got unblocked just now; I'll remove this section in a couple days. Dragonbones 14:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Greetings. As pgk mentions above, you must have been caught out by 211.72.108.18's block. I believe it was an unfortunate side effect of the autoblocker. I apologise for the inconvenience, as the block certainly wasn't directed at you. --Fire Star 15:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism on your userpage

If you would so wish, I think semi-protecting your userpage could prevent vandalism (where only users who have been registered for a short time may edit), could help prevent vandalism of your userpage. If you would like such protection, I see no reason why I couldn't add it with your permission. Ian13/talk 17:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and semi-protected your user page. Please let me know if you want it lifted. --Nlu (talk) 17:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Pls unblock me (again)

{{unblock|UNBLOCK pls; apparently side effect of autoblocker on ISP 211.72.108.18}} Blocked again, apparently a repeat of yesterdays error. Pls help! If possible I would also like to see something done to avoid recurrence of this. Dragonbones 08:25, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I've removed that block so you should be ok now --pgk^(talk) 13:38, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Tks! Can anything be done to prevent recurrence? I don't know how the autoblocker works, but can an "except usernames A-Z" be added to the code? How exactly does this autoblocker thing work, and why does it hit me too? Dragonbones 13:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, currently the software causes blocking of everyone trying to edit from an IP that is blocked, automatically or not -- and the auto blocker works by blocking, for a short duration, the IP of someone who is blocked, so that he/she can't bypass the block by simply logging out. This means we're goingto have collateral damage at times. A lot of us have called for the feature you're asking, but so far, we've received no indication that it will be implemented. --Nlu (talk) 14:44, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

This is weird. I didn't re-block the IP, although the original block was for 48 hrs. Maybe your ISP is rotating every time you sign in, and you are randomly being assigned the address. If it happens again, try turning everything off and signing back in again, it may rotate you to another IP. Very strange... --Fire Star 14:49, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

AFAIK, I'm not on a variable IP address. But I'm not tech-savvy enough to even know how to check that. I'll try it though, thanks. Dragonbones 14:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I just checked my computer's info and it says Server IP address 220.137.88.254, Client IP address 220.137.105.138. Now I'm signing out and back in -- Server unchanged, Client IP address now different. My server appears stable but the client IP is changing. Is this relevant? Dragonbones 15:38, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not much of a techie, myself. What I am saying is from memory of similar problems others have had in the past. It is rare, mostly affecting AOL clients, but other people are sometimes affected, too. Signing out and in again should take care of this if it recurs, apparently. Fun with computers! Cheers, --Fire Star 16:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Shuowen changes

Since you've frequently contributed to the Shuowen article, I wanted to let you know that I've roughly reorganized it into sections. Please take a look and edit whatever you think needs to be changed. Best wishes. Keahapana 00:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

You can be interesting by this

• Origins of Chinese characters

If you can do better, feel free to delete all this and to put something better. Yug (talk) 17:21, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Stroke order and history

Hello Dragonbones,

I'm sorry to don't have a perfect English, but I wrote this Stroke_order#Read_the_Stroke_order_from_the_graph & Stroke_order#Three_National_stroke_order_schools on the stroke order article. Actually, I have no teacher and no book teaching this to me, but crossing many reading, this is the current opinion that I have about Stroke order. If you may give your opinion (you seem to know really more than me about Chinese characters) that will be really welcome. I think all this is accurate (or close to be), but I need the opinion of an "expert". ;) Yug (talk) 17:08, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your contibution ! I will try to rewrite it to be shorter, but if I can't I will keep your text as it is. Many thanks ! --Yug (talk) 01:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

No problem. Please note that I really didn't want to go off topic into discussions of oracle bones. What I've written there was to correct an error in the original, which said Chin. char. were originally carved, and only later written on bamboo, etc.. That's wrong; they are thought by scholars to have been brush-written first, and even the earliest brush-written characters (like bridge notations on some early oracle bone pieces) are said to show signs of brush stroke order; I've referenced this in detail. If you want to shorten it, that's fine. :) Dragonbones 08:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I come back to ask again your help.

I´m re-writing the article Stroke order, with the aim to make is shorter, clearer, and more "right". But doing so, I write many ¨french-glish¨, and I come here to ask you to correct the 2 last sections (newly added).

Moreover, I have some questions :

• Archaic VS ancient, this words seem to don´t have the same use in french and in english :

Évolution du caractère [馬] Error: {{Lang}}: unrecognized language tag: Han-t (help) ma, cheval * Jiǎgǔwén Jīnwén Dàzhuàn Xiǎozhuàn Lìshū Kǎishū (t) Kǎishū (s) french Archaïque (=:en:Archaic?) Ancien (=:en:ancient?) actuel english Ancient ? nowadays

Do you confirm/support that english Ancient apply on french [ Archaic + Ancien ] ?

• I look for an english word, really close but different from "radicals". In example, 区 is the compound of two [elements ? graph ?] (x is not a radical). What is the best word for this ? (change need here)

Feel free to directly edit the article Stroke order.

--Yug (talk) 18:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi Yug, I'm happy to help. First, when you break a compound character down into parts which by themself have either meaningful or phonetic value, you can call those parts 'components' or 'elements' (regardless of whether they are phonetic or semantic in role within the character, and regardless of whether they serve as the dictionary index key, aka bu4shou3 (commonly called 'radical', unfortunately). If you break the components down any further then they are just strokes or groups of strokes. 乙 in 九 is just a stroke, for example, and not a legitimate component, even though it has been (artificially) extracted for use as the bushou of this character. In 雙 shuang1 'pair', there are three components or elements: two zhui1 birds and one you4 hand.

Second, there isn't a very clear difference between the words 'archaic' and 'ancient' in English. They both roughly mean 'very very old'. Here is a quote from the American Heritage Dictionary:

"SYNONYMS: old, ancient1, archaic, antediluvian, antique, antiquated These adjectives describe what belongs to or dates from an earlier time or period. Old is the most general term: old lace; an old saying. Ancient pertains to the distant past: “the hills,/Rock-ribbed, and ancient as the sun” (William Cullen Bryant). Archaic implies a very remote, often primitive period: an archaic Greek bronze of the seventh century b.c. "

Distant and remote of course mean the same thing, so you can see that there's no obvious, inherent order to ancient and archaic. Perhaps some will feel ancient precedes archaic (the opposite of what you've used) -- I'm not sure though. I might call OB through middle Zhou bronze 'ancient', and late Zhou bronze (not far removed from small seal) to seal and clerical as 'archaic', but this isn't a very clear or useful distinction; such nomenclature would not really add any value. Certainly 'actual' is not the right word for the modern standard script.

It would be far more precise and objective to divide into stages such as 'pre-Qin' (= OB to middle Zhou), 'Qin' (including the Qin state's pre-dynastic use of the evolving small seal script from the 7th to 3rd centuries BC) and 'post-Qin' (including both clerical, which is still legible to modern readers, and kaishu). If you read Qiu Xigui's important book, "Chinese Writing" (highly recommended!), you'll see he divides the evolution of Chinese writing into two stages, 'ancient' (he could have just as easily chosen the word 'archaic', btw) vs. 'clerical and standard scripts'.

There are some other basic problems in your terminology here. Jin1wen2 is a medium (characters cast in bronze). There are some which predate the oracle bones (middle Shang bronzes), some before, during and after the Dazhuan, and all the way down to Qin and post-Qin times. If you are using 'jinwen' in a chronology, it is highly imprecise, since cast bronze inscriptions (and engraved ones, actually) span the entire period.

It is far, far better to use the period name to limit your meaning, e.g., early to mid Zhou bronze script.

Dazhuan is also a problematic term. The small seal script did not acquire its name (小篆 xiǎozhuàn ‘small seal’ or 'seal' script) until the Hàn dynasty, because by then its use would be largely restricted to personal and official 篆 zhuàn signets (seals, or name chops, aka 印 yìn, now 印章 yìnzhāng) and a few other extremely formal uses. The diminutive 小 xiǎo ‘small’ was to contrast the standard Qín characters with earlier writing which Hàn people had occasion to see, and which at this point in time acquired the name 大篆 dàzhuàn or ‘large seal’ forms. The term dazhuan has been widely misunderstood as referring to all writing before the smal seal script, i.e., including the oracle bone writing as well as early bronzes. However, as 段育裁 Duàn Yùcái concluded, it instead referred to *Qín system* characters preceding the small seal script, essentially the script between the archaic middle Zhou Qin system forms and small seal. 唐蘭 Táng Lán’s explanation of 大篆 dàzhuàn as the somewhat older Qín system graphs encountered by Qín to Hàn dynasty people is also reasonable. The only obsolete graphs likely to be seen to any significant extent by that time would have been only slightly older, more complex or variant forms from the Qín lineage, from rarely seen early forms of perhaps around 800 BCE (including perhaps the surviving portions of the 籀文 Zhòuwén compendium) to perhaps more commonly encountered variants which had been excluded from the standardized version of small seal script in the 3rd BCE. Thus, there is no reason to extend the meaning of this already imprecise Hàn dynasty term to include Western Zhoū bronze examples or OB; it is equally imprecise to view dazhuan as a stage between jinwen and xiaozhuan; rather. It is much better to avoid this confusing term, and it is more accurate to refer instead to the periods: "Shang Dyn. OB and bronze inscriptions", "Western Zhou writing on bronzes and from the 籀文 Zhòuwén compendium", "Qin system writing from the Middle Zhou to Qin Dyn. on bronzes, stone inscriptions and via textual transmission", and so on.

Note also that some bronze characters precede the oracle bone examples, so it is dangerous to automatically assume they belong after the OB in a chronology.

Finally, to place the scripts in a discrete order -- OB, bronze, seal, clerical, etc. -- is a bit misleading, since each of these really overlapped. I'd strongly suggest reading and rereading Qiu's book to gain a better understanding of the complexity of the situation.

Dragonbones 08:58, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Wow... this is interesting (and futher than what I previously knew). I haven't time to remember all this, but I will come back to read again all this, and to understand clearly all this.

For the stroke order issue, if you have time to help me, your contribution is welcome on User:Yug/Stroke order (draft) to improve my [medium] english.

Thanks for your previous answer. Yug (talk) 22:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Nice to see you back

Hi DB, nice to see you back here. I'm elsewhere, as a new lang wiki has recently been set up, so don't edit here much now. Keep up the good stuff :D Dylanwhs 07:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Yug's request

Hello Dragonbones,

I'm currently in Taipei being the recipient of a 9 month Taiwan gouverment scholarship. Since you seems to live in Taipei, please can you contact me (via email) to enable me to meet you in October 2007. I'm interesting to get place names where I will be able to buy cheap Cambridge history of China or other books ; to make some talks with you ; and to take a (some ? O.o) looks on your own library which seems to have some unfoundable books (Keightley 1978), always to improve my understanding of stroke order and calligraphy.

Regards

Yug 11:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello Dragonbones,

Sorry for all the time I made you lost about this issue (want to meet you and take a look at your books), I was finaly lock/overbooked by personnal troubles. After an operation in June 2007, my girlfriend joined me in Taiwan (she is also a scholarship recipient), but arrived in Taiwan she had minor but continous complications, that amazingly continued untill February 2008. Accordingly, the priority ranks in my "to do list" changed, I had to spend 3 hours a days to support and give basic medical care to my girlfriend, to continue to study Chinese, and to try to have some enjoying time in Taiwan (travel to Taizhong, Hualian, Lukang, etc.).

Also, I throwed away all my Stroke-order relate funny researchs, and didn't insisted any more to come to see you.

May be next time I come to Taiwan (probably in the 3 next years).

Regards,

Yug 16:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

{helpme} The label affixed to my user page regarding its protection says "Editing of this page by new or unregistered users is currently disabled to prevent Dragonbones (talk • contribs • block logauto) and other new users from making disruptive edits." However, this makes it appear as if I, Dragonbones, have been making disruptive edits to my own page, which is misleading, as it was I who requested the protection to prevent editing by others. So I would like to suggest that the string "Dragonbones (talk • contribs • block logauto) and other new users from making" be deleted from this label, leaving "to prevent disruptive edits". Thanks! Dragonbones (talk) 02:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Jiangzhai pottery symbols.gif

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Chinese alphabet

please create a seperate article for Chinese alphabet, becaues there is an alphabetic scripts that has been in use recently for helping foreigners learn chinese.162.83.161.190 (talk) 22:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

• Hi, thanks for posting here! Just to make sure we're on the same page, you know that Chinese is not an alphabetic language, right? If you mean the (non-alphabetic) Chinese script, the article is already at Written Chinese. If you mean the Roman alphabet being used to write the sounds of Chinese, the modern international system is called Hanyu Pinyin, or Pinyin for short, and the article is here: Hanyu Pinyin. I'm guessing you mean the latter and simply don't know that we already have an article on it. Also, there is an EXCELLENT website [2] by Mark Swofford of Banqiao, Taiwan which you can go see. The chap really knows his stuff. Cheers! Dragonbones (talk) 02:03, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

i found the alphabet i was looking for, zhuyin. since it is phonetic, "chinese alphabet" should redirect there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.131.194 (talk) 22:13, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I changed the redirect to a disambiguation page, because while some may have zhuyin in mind when they type 'Chinese alphabet' to do a search, others may have one of the various Romanization systems in mind, and some users (e.g., kids) might even have the Chinese writing system in mind. Since different people may have different things in mind, it should not be a redirect to just one of those. Now when you type that, you get a list of pages to choose from.Dragonbones (talk) 03:12, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Your recent report to AIV

Thank you for your recent report to AIV. However, please ensure that a user is actively vandalizing at the time of the report and has vandalized after their final warning. Thanks, and keep up the good work. xenocidic (talk) 14:26, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

DeFrancis states that 70%+ of the Chinese population can speak "Mandarin"?

Re: your recent edit to Chinese language:

Can you confirm that DeFrancis was talking about Putonghua, not Beifanghua? -- ran (talk) 11:15, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Response

Dragonbones, I responded to your post on the Jia Gu Wen.

Dude, we're like kindred spirits or something! I'm totally interested in Oracle and Bronze Scripts too and the etymology and variations of the Modern Chinese Script. Keep in touch, let's keep on good terms.

How many scholars/enthusiasts of the Oracle Bone are there? What do you think about me starting a Yahoo Group on it? Or is there some group and/or online forum for the organization of Oracle Bone enthusiasts? We should totally get this ball rolling. I mean, look at the development of Egyptian Hieroglyphic in the intellectual and cognitive tradition of the West. If we get this out there to meet the coming wave of young people interested in learning Chinese as a 2nd language, I say we could make an absolute killing, professionally and in terms of book sales.

Though I'm really in it for the satisfaction and enjoyment. To hell with the money. I could've been a petroleum engineer. What do you think?

Epigraphist (talk) 06:11, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Amazing, Dragonbones, your work is amazing. You may want to site your resources, though, at least in the Chinese Bronze Inscriptions article. Still, excellent.

Epigraphist (talk) 19:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

help making a table

please help me turn the mess at the bottom of my page into a tableㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ (talk) 01:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

never mindㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ (talk) 21:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Jiangzhai_pottery_symbols.gif

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Keep in Touch

It's my last year of this undergrad Linguistics degree and I'm thinking of grad school. I'm going to try to contact Keightley and see if he'll help steer me. Me, I'm not sure if I should get a graduate degree in Linguistics or Sinology, if you understand. Send me an e-mail if you could, roger158 at msu.edu.

Epigraphist (talk) 00:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Did I tell you I read his "Sources of Shang History" last spring?

Epigraphist (talk) 00:12, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

File:Ye3 also seal.jpg listed for deletion

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How have you been?

Please e-mail me, I wonder how your studies are progressing. roger158 at msu.edu

Epigraphist (talk) 00:39, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

East Asian Calligraphy

Dragonbones, I don't know if you're still around, but I'm currently engaged in a discussion with user Asoer on whether East Asian Calligraphy is "calligraphy" or not. You've contributed to discussions on East Asian Calligraphy before, so I wonder if you could have a look in. [3]

Bathrobe (talk) 05:28, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

File source problem with File:Jiangzhai pottery symbols.gif

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E-mail me

It's Epigraphist from a few years back. E-mail me please and tell me how you are. I spent a year in Changchun picking up Chinese. roger158 at msu.edu

Glyphist (talk) 04:36, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Banpo symbols.gif

⚠

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Trying to add images to Wiki has turned out to be far too much of a hassle and has really turned me off from doing editing on the site. Dragonbones (talk) 02:37, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I've given up doing that for exactly the same reasons. I'm sorry you feel like that too, but, we're in the same ship, hopefully not of fools, lol :) Dylanwhs (talk) 22:22, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, I guess I'll still edit when I see a need, such as building the Guitalele pages, but I'm not even going to try pictures. Cheers! Dragonbones (talk) 07:57, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Nice work on Chunqiu_shiyu

I liked this article, and would like to see more like them. Also, it would be nice to have more details about the content, if you have them. Cheers! 98.210.208.107 (talk) 20:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Merge discussion for Plastromancy

An article that you have been involved in editing, Plastromancy, has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going here, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Vmenkov (talk) 04:59, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

One of your references is missing

You mention this source: "Xǔ Yǎhuì, p.12" but it is missing in the literature list. Larsbo c (talk) 09:05, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!

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