Template:Did you know nominations/Ratnākara

Ratnākara

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... ~~that Ratnākara may have invented the poetic device of vakrokti ("verbal distortion")?~~

Source: Bronner and McCrea 2001 439–440.

ALT1: ... that Ratnākara's Vakroktipañcāśikā contains fifty verses of dialogue between Śiva and Pārvatī, employing the poetic device of vakrokti ("verbal distortion")?
ALT2: ... that a now-lost chronicle of the kings of Kashmir, covering two "gaps" in Kalhaṇa's Rājataraṅginī, is attributed to Ratnākara?
Reviewed:

Created by TryKid (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 07:48, 15 October 2024 (UTC).

A new hook with additional context might be needed here, as the typical reader might not understand the intended meaning of the hook. Essentially, it might not meet WP:DYKINT, specifically the part about specialist knowledge. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:29, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
@Narutolovehinata5:, I've expanded the hook to make it clearer, and added two alternative hooks. I have no significant preference for any of them over others; feel free to chose any or suggest improvements if this is still unsatisfactory. I could add a note in the article explaining vakrokti in detail if current wording feels too confusing. regards, TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 10:17, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

It might be better to just focus on ALT2 as ALT1 still seems to rely on specialist knowledge and not something that's self-evident from a reading. ALT2 is still slightly specialist but it's at least more understandable. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:02, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

The nominator has been given well over a month to propose a usable hook. The current hooks require specialized knowledge and fail the WP:DYKHOOKSTYLE guideline. Given how much time has passed since this issue was pointed out by Narutolovehinata5 to TryKid, it is time to pass on this nomination.4meter4 (talk) 18:01, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

4meter4, my understanding was that Narutolovehinata5 had passed on the review for someone else to do it, not that I was being asked to make a new hook! That's not what I expected "Symbol redirect vote 4" to mean. It's fine if it's too late to salvage this, but Narutolovehinata5 and other reviewers, please be clearer about this stuff, and clearly state what is expected from the nominators. TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 18:44, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

@TryKid I'm happy to hold off on a rejection if you still wish to try and propose a usable hook. Narutolovehinata5 has raised a WP:DYKHOOKSTYLE objection, which I agree with. You need to propose a hook that anyone can understand which means contextualizing the term "Ratnākara" (most people won't know what or who this is; ie its not clear this is even a person in the current hooks). I also would avoid using too many foreign language terms or names. "Kalhaṇa's Rājataraṅginī" for example will have no obvious context or meaning to the average English speaking person. You need to try and find a hook fact that someone who knows nothing about India or its history or its literature or its languages can understand. Best.4meter4 (talk) 18:56, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

@TryKid here is an example of a hook that would be understandable to an English reader: ...that the poet Ratnākara is credited with authoring a now-lost chronicle of the kings of Kashmir that fulfills two gaps in the historical chronicle of the north-western part of Indian sub-continent? Best.4meter4 (talk) 19:19, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

4meter4, I thank you for the suggestion, and for allowing the nom more time despite the initial miscommunication. How about ALT 0a: ... that the poet Ratnākara may have invented the Sanskrit-language poetic device of "willful misconstrucal" (vakrokti)?

I understand it's not immediately clear what "willful misconstrucal" is to a non-specialist audience, but it would be something that draws the audience in, rather than all of the interesting information being in the hook. The phrase is from the Bronner and McCrea, p.436: "This device, vakrokti – “verbal perversion” or, more literally, “distortive-talk” – is traditionally defined as one speaker’s willful misconstrual of what has been said by another."

If this still fails the "specialised knowledge" criterion, feel free to reject the nomination as you initially intended, I can't really think of anything much better. Articles like this might not be cut-out for DYK. There's a "longest extant Sanskrit mahākāvya" hook, but that already ran with Haravijaya itself. regards, TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 20:22, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

@TryKid I think it reads weirdly but a slight modification based on that quote would be better: ALT 0b: ... that the poet Ratnākara may have invented the Sanskrit-language poetic device of "verbal perversion" (vakrokti)? I think this is hookier because the language is much more provocative. It will grab a reader's attention.4meter4 (talk) 21:17, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

@4meter4 I don't think putting up suggestive stuff or innuendos even in a "bait and switch" contexts is a good DYK practice. Any of the other phrases from the paper—distortive talk, willful misconstrucal, intentional misinterpretation, verbal distortion—would be better. regards, TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 21:38, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

@TryKid That's fair. Based on that I think this would work: ALT 0c: ... that the poet Ratnākara may have invented the Sanskrit-language poetic device of "verbal distortion" (vakrokti)?

I am going to have another editor look at this alt since arguably I helped write Alt Oc.4meter4 (talk) 21:47, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Just need an editor to approve of Alt Oc.4meter4 (talk) 21:47, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

ALT0c fails WP:DYKDEFINITE as it is not a definite fact and would require attribution anyway.--Laun chba ller 12:13, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Launchballer, are attributed statments allowed on DYK? How about ALT 0d: ... that according to Yigal Bronner and Lawrence McCrea, the poet Ratnākara may have invented the Sanskrit-language poetic device of "verbal distortion" (vakrokti)?

Alternatively, a simpler version of alt2: ALT2b: ... that a now-lost chronicle of the kings of Kashmir is attributed to the author Ratnākara?

Even ALT1b: ... that the Sanskrit-language poem Vakroktipañcāśikā, authored by Ratnākara, employs the poetic device of "willful misconstrucal"? I believe these should be understandable by a lay Western audience. regards, TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 16:06, 29 November 2024 (UTC)