Talk:Zoran Đinđić/Archive 1
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Untitled
This article is a disgrace! People should have to learn some manners, I suppose. Red Berets, as mentioned, JSO in fact, they were not a paramilitary force but the special force of Serbian police. This was example about this person who wrote the article or that part of it. And if you ask decent people of Serbia - Đinđić was a notorious criminal who betrayed his country and his people. I will not describe details. All I will state about the quality of his work is that I was ambivalent when he was murdered. I was sad his DS would gain popularity on victim syndrome after his death but I still couldn't hide happiness because the traitor was history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paimonia (talk • contribs) 01:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for showing us what POV really means. If somebody wasn't aware what it is know he knows thanks to you. I suggest you go and read about POV and than come back. As for comments you gave, most are not worth a comment --Trigor 21:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
There are only two possibilities here: either this article is written by a very ignorant person or it is just another attempt to present his assassination as mafia retaliation. If the former is true then it is really shameful that someone who does not have a slightest idea about one of the most important politicians in the Balkans (not only Serbia) has taken on the role to write an article for Wikipedia. If the latter is true, I would be really amazed to realize that the "patriotic" influence (read: security-mafia structures of the Serbian extreme right led by Kostunica and his "advisors") is has reached even this medium.
I would tend to believe that the second option is probably more probable, because this article is very biased but in a subtle way. This can be written only by a professional who knows how to avoid too obvious lies.
In any case, I would urge who ever is managing this article to remove it as soon as possible. First, I thought I should provide comments on certain parts and try to correct it - but it is useless! The only way to go about it is to write a whole new article and support it with academic references - and avoid all that information that comes from the gossip newspapers/weeklies in Serbia finances by the security service
If this article is removed I would gladly like to write another one... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brigada~enwiki (talk • contribs) 19:30, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Djindjic's Political Identity
The article is biased. Room should be made in the text for the view that some Yugoslavs and others around the world regarded Djindjic as a modern day quisling. He was a supporter of and beneficiary of the Nato aggression against Yugoslavia, fleeing to Germany during the perpetration of that crime and subsequently acting as an agent of foreign powers in the final destabilisation of the administration that heroically resisted the fascist Rambouillet ultimatum and its military consummation. SMRT FASIZMU / SLOBODA NARODU.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadow partisan (talk • contribs) 09:25, 22 June 2005 (UTC)
As far as I know, Mr. Djindjic was not a separatist striving towards destroying Yugoslavia, nor making his people suffer, he was a rebel dissatisfied with the lack of freedom during the communist (and later Milosevic's) rule. The NATO bombing was the rock bottom Yugoslavia finally hit, after heading towards it face down for years. You have to agree that having a different opinion and be willing to express it in a peaceful manner is not considered a ticket to a one year jail sentence, which he received fairly quickly during his days in youth. Furthermore, your tendencies towards placing a "fascist" tag to everything that doesn't comply with your criteria don't really give you a good stance to present your accusations which require a higher level of neutrality, according to the Wikipedia guidelines.
I urge everyone who wants to represent Mr. Djindjic as a criminal on this article to back their claims with valid evidence, not with aggressive statements made by his political rivals nor with "hear-say" patriotic essays... --BureX
I agree, this text is extremley biased, Djndjic is represented like a saint. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.139.80.99 (talk • contribs) 13:46, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Time Will Tell
Well, I think that Djindjic wasn`t a saint, but was a reformer - a best one Serbia had so far.
For example agreement with Bill Gates
Lowered piracy from 100% of software 40% or so in companies Microsoft Yugoslavia, latter Microsoft Serbia nad Montenegro founded www.microsoft.co.yu Windows XP, Office 2003 and all newer MS products localized for Serbia Brought many other companies to Serbia once legal rights were protected
Djindjic didn't bring those companies to Yugoslavia. He delivered Yugoslavia to those companies. Not the same thing at all.
Very few portions of his works are shown: reform of economy (first tenders), social security
reform, introduction of church and completion of biggest Orthodox temple in region etc. for just
two years period. Yes, he wasn`t a saint, as none of our politicians are, but at least wasn`t
old Communist school, but a properly educated man. He never supported NATO agression but a fall
of Milosevic, these words are his propaganda. He had to flee not to be killed like some of
Milosevics opponents of that time, and he lived to see "the fall of the naked king" that never
finished any serious project and never understood that there is no more communism (Kept
us in chains). Well, I think that it is a worse to put country in such position that it can
be bombed, than not to inform your people in time, to use war time to kill your opponents and
eventually give more than you have been asked in the beggining. Think wisely - where
is your "Loan for restauration of Serbia", your money on bank accounts before 1991, who ordered
that so many people got beaten. who brought you Chineese imigration etc. etc. and eventually
who gave up Kossovo. Who protected criminals from interpol (exapmle: Arkan)
Who signed that we will extradict people to Hague in Deyton? Who is "Quissling then?".
And if you think that transition from communism to normal society is betrayal
look at all over East Europe. And if you think he was a good socialist, look
what real social democrats do in Sweden, Germany or UK (welfare state).
Look, I live in Belgrade, so I know. Yes, you have to go to Redmond
to drink whiskey with Bill, but it`s a positive move that brought
localization to the lammers. For me, I still use all kinds of sideways :-)
Belgrade is a strategical center of SEE region, and if we wern`t this
politicaly unstable, I am sure we will be a great trading center
and key base for the development of region. This was his project.
There are different things for criticism, like a comback of
religion to schools, he did just to satisfy Church, that
stabbed him in the back, or not banning the parties of the
old regime, which just got the votes of all the victims of transition.
But it`s very tragic that your first reformist gots assasinated
just after 2 years of rule, isn`t it? So his vision is incomplete,
his sucessors are none, but foundation is layed.
--Rastavox 05:14, 7 August 2005 (UTC) user:Rastavox
Just to explain a little about me briefly to all those who wrote before me, I am from Wales in the U.K and have no family from the former Yugoslavia. I have over the years taken an interest in that region for various reasons. I knew who Zoran Đinđić was, I first noticed him in the summer of 1999 when he was campaigning publicly to become the next president of Yugoslavia (this was of course, after the Nato bombing). At the time, like all naïve people, I developed a certain amount of trust in this gentleman; he certainly persuaded the predominantly young audience with his promise of a new post-Miloševiċ Yugoslavia. However, it was only after the 5th October revolution in 2000 that reality started to show. For business reasons, I was in Belgrade on that day and among the crowd too. Just yards away from the Republic Square, I could have been mistaken for one of the protesters but I really never knew what was happening just yet as the crowds began to emerge. Working for me at my advertising company are several young people from the Balkans, many worked for me before October 5th and many afterwards. My next trip to Belgrade was in February 2002 where I was shocked to see the huge rise in prices, particularly fuel, but people's wages being no different to what they were under the previous regime. With the former president now appearing daily in the Hague on R.T.S, the local media was now concentrating on dismanteling organized crime and punishing the criminals who were behind the activities. Sounds promising, but the reality was in fact something else. On October 5th 2000, though there were a handful of heavies doing their daily business, there were thousands of drug dealers, pimps, mobsters etc. imprisoned up and down the whole of Yugoslavia. By the time the warrants were made for the arrest of the outstanding gangsters (ie. those who succeeded in illegal activity under the old regime), most of those thousands of convicted criminals were released, and today it is THEY who have unlimited protection from the government and the police. Drug sales have never been so high in Belgrade - heroin and cocaine consumed like never before, burgarlies increased, rapes increased, violent crime on the rise, the list grows, the reports from the local people were appalling. Yet here you had a man who stood out openly, spoke of how his country is thriving, how things are looking better than ever before, the country now has opportunities which only months before, it never had. For me, the final nail in the coffin of my trust for Đinđiċ was when his comments and performances were aknowledged and accepted by high profile leaders from Westerm Europe and the United States, some of whom were in office when Nato attacked Yugoslavia - and this to me stunk worse than the urine-stained walls of Rome's metro stations. For my own reasons, I don't trust any of the Western leaders further than I can comfortably spit out a dead rat. Now I know how corrupt the previous system was and from the outsider's angle and I did not sympathize with Milošević. I do however have to make one note: with the economy of the Đinđiċ posthumous legacy continuing to worsten, should a miracle occur and the situation begin to reverse at the same pace as it has been dropping - and given that we are approaching 5 years since the fall of the old system - Serbs (and possibly Montenegrins if they are still there) will have to wait until 2010 before they wake up to find their economy as it was on the 5th October 2000 when the uprising took place. I know that Ružica Đinđić and her boys have done a lot better under the new system as I am sure that Miroljub Labus probably enjoys driving in his new car too - he too has done very well under the new system, but the poor hard-working locals of Novi Pazar and Vranje havn't. If anyone out there believes that he should be made a saint, I say they are only kidding themselves. User:Celtmist 4 September 2005
It is apparent that this guy doesn’t live here. I don’t know where did you get that mambo jumbo about salaries. As far I know they increased for more than 200% since PM took office. From less than 100 euros till more than 200 euros. As for the price hikes they were necessary but at least you could buy goods. Drug increases that honorable gentlemen described are false, and DS government certainly curbed mafia in Sablja. As for now NO evidence of corruption has been found in old government despite DSS holding all posts and trying. So all you said is blatant ignorance. But considering that you hate all western leaders of successful countries I am sure Djindjic would be honored. And don’t forget that Serbia has production rate now much much much higher than 5th October but from period of NATO aggression as well.
--Trigor 01:17, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I see that Trigor is one of these people who is either one of the few to benefit from the new system in Serbia & Montenegro (the elite), or is one of the young generation yet to be disillusioned by the whole new farse which all other eastern European nationals cottoned onto quite early. To be honest with you, talking to people from Belgrade after 5th October was like talking to Polish people after the fall of communism, talks of a 'bright new future', indeed they joined the European Union but like Slovakia, the Czech Republic and the Baltic countries, unemployment has risen and the standard of living had severely plummeted. To take the Czech Republic as an example, if you look at Prague away from the glamour of it's little old city crawling with tourists, you see another depressed city (as much I love that city), where-as once upon a time everyone maintained a certain standard of living but could not buy much from outside of Czechoslovakia, today everything is available but MOST people cannot affort it. These sentiments have been echoed accross the whole of the former eastern bloc: Bulgaria, Romania, the Ukraine etc. Perhaps in my original draft, I didn't make myself quite clear. Peoples wages have NOT risen in Serbia & Montenegro, they have declined. It's all good and well for Bulgarians who claim that they earn 200% more than five years ago, but when inflation has risen 500% then what's the catch? It seems we are playing number games. Fact: In Serbia & Montenegro has risen as Trigor has said. He said over 100%. I was in Belgrade in 1999 shortly after the air strikes, and again in October 2000, then in 2002 and again in 2005 and I will also be spending two weeks in Novi Sad on business early in the new year (2006). 100 Serbian Dinars does not have the buying power that 50 dinars did five years ago and I know all about this. In 1999 Serbia and Montenegro was like an E.U country by the standards of its neighbours in Romanania, Bulgaria, Macedonia and Albania with the road network, buildings, infrastrucutre, and by this I mean the developments since losing the other Yugoslav republics. Macedonia had at that time been falling economicly. Now in 2005 with Macedonia no better than then, with no rise in pay (not even pretend-rises like in Serbia and Montenegro) since 1997, I was amazed to discover that 100 Macedonian Dinars were equal to 116 serbian Dinars. In 1999 there were about 60 Serbian Dinars to Macedonia's hundred. It seems that even Romania has moved higher up the ranking ladder without actually getting any better. As for crime, I know full well that is being told on B.K and R.T.S and in B92 and Blic etc. 'A curb on the Mafia' etc. I accept that there are manhunts for criminals in the Milosevic era. But only a fool would now believe that this the country will extinguish organized crime: organized crime exists everywhere and always has done. Mafia activity has risen since the fall of communism in ALL former eastern Bloc countries. Search the web and you will find hard evidence that right now, thousands of drug dealing acencies operate up and down the whole of Serbia & Montenegro, and I mean - those who were supressed under the previous regime. I could even mention names but I won't do that, it is not my place. In fact, many of todays hard drug dealers in Belgrade ARN'T even native Slavs. For years, Kosovar Albanians have controlled the heroin markets in Budapest and (possibly because of tensions in Kosovo between Albanians and non-Albanians) would not have dared to take their filth over the border to travel to Hungary via Serbia. They found their own little routes (anti clockwise, Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary) - countries in which drugs have become a fashion with their new 'decomcratic' governments (not publicly of course), certainly where border police serve governments who in turn serve the U.S government will not make waves and interfere in the activities of these people who are doing what they are doing to buy weapons to cause atrocity which will in turn provoke reaction from Slobodan Milosevic at which point people in the west will be shown highlights of his resistence, calling for action to be taken, which will in the end overturn him and replace him with a system that is more loyal to U.S policy. Easily calculated and happening all over the world. Well thanks to the efforts of the new governments since the fall of Milosevic, you now have Albanian pimps and squimps operational in Belgrade and not just a few of them, but there now exists a network of crime and rival underworld gangs just like you do in the Ukraine, Romania, Lithuania, Russia, Croatia, Macedonia, Albania, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan to name but a few - and trust me, I know all these countries.
My message to you Trigor is this. If you are one of the new elite, congratulations to you, I don't blame you for supporting your new system and I am not being comical in this. In the U.K we say, 'if the cap fits, wear it', good luck to you for as long as it lasts. If, Trigor, you are one of the young people living in this dillusion, rub your eyes and look around you at the other new republics to form since the fall of socialism, and face it, Serbia and Montenegro has simply followed suit. To me, there is no distinction between the dreams of people in Belgrade those of people in Bakı, Tashkent, Kyiv, Astana, Bratislava, Tirana, Bishbek and Moscow. Sooner or later you realise its one big joke, you dod what you do to be closer the the U.S, well most of Sub-Saharan Africa is close to the west too and many of them have always have Zoran Djindjic has their leader, not THE Zoran Djindjic but I don't think that Festus Mogae of Botswana really is much different beyond physical appearance. Celtmist 9 September 2005
This is your opinion and you are fully entitled to it. I disagree. I have lived in this country whole my life and I know how it was before and after. I am not elite. I am just a member of a middle class family living in New Belgrade. Some of the things you said are truth. I agree that crime has risen under Kostunica government a lot and drug dealing has increased but that is benign compared to what it was during Milosevic. I have profited though from new government in many ways. Mostly through being able to communicate with people from government and to ask them to solve our problems. As for crime under Milosevic you are completely mistaken. Any statistic will tell you that most of the organized gangs and criminals started during his era, and most of them are people he has sent to go and kill people in other republics as well to kill political opponents and newspapers editors at home. After they finished their assignments they were virtually free to do everything they wanted. Most of them are now in jail. Few people would challenge that. As for Djindjic government, that scale of fight with organized crime is unprecedented in Serbian history and PM was killed because of that (operation witness). You have to accept that PM has a lot of respect here and IT is not only "naive" and profiteers. We are happy with what he has done and we support his results which is more than evident from results of recent elections. I hope that I who live here have the right to point out that in 2000 during Milosevic inflation was 70% (I should also mention 1000..% (world record for that mater) inflation in 1993) and now it is 12%. That is answer to price hikes you mentioned. It is not truth that things were cheaper because you couldn’t buy them. Simply they didn’t have them in the shops. Imagine situation where you couldn’t buy milk, cocking oil, bread, petrol… All too real for me in the past. Now we can buy it and most importantly we have money to buy it. (Average income up 4 times). Perhaps you still believe that under Milosevic was better. Tell that to those that have had 5 euros a month in 1993. Tell that to those who played 2000 000 000 dinars for a bread. Tell that to those who perished in his wars. Tell that to those who were brutally beaten and killed. Tell that to refugees he created. Tell that to lost generation in embargos and cheap culture he created. Of course you have the right to say that everything I say is something you are not agreeing on and that I have been privileged to live under Milosevic. That's OK. But please. Respect my opinion like I respect yours. For the end let’s take a look and compare some basic indicators from best of Milosevic era and past five years. If I were you I wouldn’t compare Milosevic with other communist regimes because he was something quite different.
Inflation rate DOWN Crime rate DOWN Tobacco and Oil smuggling DOWN National debt DOWN National deficit DOWN
And let’s take a look on what has gone up
Minimum wage UP Pensions UP Average wage UP Detection rate UP Criminal charges UP Drug sized UP (mostly thanks to reformed UBPOK and Sablja) Weapons sized UP (mostly thanks to reformed UBPOK and Sablja) GDP UP Growth rate UP GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) UP Investments UP Trade UP Export UP
Comparison between 2000 and 2005 (basically same for 2003)
References www.statserb.sr.gov.yu www.mup.sr.gov.yu
--Trigor 17:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I have to agree with trigor, Djindjic was a man of vision, whether you like him or not, he was a man who could have forseen many things to come.
celtmist, comparing pre and post milosevic era is absolutely imposible for many reasons. yes, we are still poor, probably going to be poor in european standards for many many years to come; still, we are in normal european currents, whether you accept those currents to be good or bad, we are not the black sheep anymore. Or at least trying not to be. MarkoBG
Unfortunately Zorane, you were wrong. The reforms stopped. Everything stopped. Serbia is back to Milosevic's era.
As I said before about Tadic Djindjic isn't from Bosnia.
Respect to Djindjic but Nikola Pasic is the greatest politician Serbia ever had.
--BoDu 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Killed instantly?
I seem to remember watching a documentary where they mentioned that Djindjic was able to walk without assistance for 20 minutes after he was shot. Is this just my bad memory, or does anyone else know anything about this? --GOD OF JUSTICE 04:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
As far as I know he fell down and didn't regain consciousness. His security adviser tryed to get him up and noticed large hole in the area of his back. He was tumbled to the car and rushed to the hospital immediately. Although I have some reservations about "instantly" claim since life saving treatment was attempted and hi was pronounced death during the treatmant which would imply that he was alive when treatment started. Just some food for thought. As for walking I don't think it was possible with such serious injuries and since he was tumbled to the car almost immediately. --Trigor 22:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Wow, it's been a while since I've last saw such a blatant POV-pushing. To give an example:
Đinđić thus was willing to do anything to achieve this goal. He was not constrained by law or the constitution and made it clear that to him, the ends justified the means. This was in marked contrast to Kostunica who always wanted to present the appearance that the law and constitution were being respected.
Đinđić's alliance with gangsters again shows his willingness to do dirty work to further his ends. Gangsters grew very powerful in Yugoslavia during the Milosevic era because of the economic sanctions imposed by Western powers and the United Nations. Though the Dayton agreement had committed the U.S. to lifting sanctions on Yugoslavia, United States President Bill Clinton immediately violated this with his "outer wall" of sanctions tied to other issues such as the fate of Kosovo. Đinđić understood the importance of using his ties to these gangsters to get them to support his efforts to have Yugoslavia join the West.
All written in a factual manner (not a single "it is believed/claimed by"), and no references too. And large parts of the article are like that.
Unless references start to appear, I'm afraid the article will have to be cut down significantly - simply because most of it will have to be changed to "it is believed that ...", and those are not supposed to be used without a specific indication of who believes, and a reference to back that, so the claims would have to be removed entirely. -- int19h (talk) 19:46, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Documentary - Killing of Zoran Djindjic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXoEBdKvuhk&feature=related
This is an English documentary that will shut up all the Serbian ultranationalists who live in a conspiracy theory world and hate Zoran Djindjic for cooperating with The Hague Tribunal (ICTY) --(GriffinSB) (talk) 23:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
religion of Zoran Djindjic
There is no single evidence that Zoran Djindjic was personally religious. Moreover, when asked about his religious attitudes, at national TV in Serbia, his answer was - I am not religious very much, actually I believe in the way that can be described as my own. I tried to find that video at you tube, but it is not available there. As pragmatic, he tried to be in 'regular' relation to Serbian Orthodox Church. However, they celebrated his assassination. I just want to ask you to remove data that indicates his religion, since there is no evidence for that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.105.41.97 (talk) 11:25, 13 May 2010 (UTC) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWWH3kCGNFM He says in the video that we are responsible to God to be champions, so think that you should put Christian or Orthodox Christian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.140.67.158 (talk) 12:23, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
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Zoran Đinđić war crminal?
Hello! I want to open a discussion about claims of Đinđić being a war criminal as i read this in an article; to be fair i was really surprised to read this since i had a good impression before. The article states: "In the same vain, not until the assassination of the Serbian Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic on March 12, 2003, Belgrade took significant steps to co-operate with the ICTY. Following Djindjic’s assassination, who was one of the three war criminals of ‘Vukovar Three’ and responsible from systematic ethnic cleansings, the remaining two, Miroslav Radic and Veselin Sljivancanin, were arrested by the Serbian authorities. In addition, Serbian State Security Chief Jovica Stanisic, who was the architect of the Serbian nationalist policy of ethnic cleansing, his deputy Franko Simatovic, who was the founder of the slayer Red Berets, and Radovan Karadzic were also arrested and transferred to the ICTY at The Hague. Since there is no common understanding between the EU member states, the war criminals case of Serbia is complicated and confusing." Source: Siret Hursoy, The European Union Foreign and Security Actions and the Western Balkans, Alternatives: Turkish Journal of International Relations, Vol. 9, No. 1, Spring 2010 I am sorry i can't provide the link but i retrieved it through my library account and it's only for its students. I do not know if this is true or not but i want to know the opinions of preferably not biased and detached people who have some information and can prove their claims. Thank you! Purusbonum (talk) 20:32, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
Article requires serious revision
There is still a wide debate in Serbia, concerning Djindjic legacy. I can speak of my own views here and nothing more. He was not a saint, and he was not perfect, yet he remains (together with his political and ideological rival, Kostunica) a real and serious politician with statehood capacity and integrity. His murder is maybe the most important date in modern history of Serbia, and in my own opinion March 12. 2003 represent a major turnover after October 5. There are still powerful structures within Serbia which hate Djindjic relentlessly, and have many reasons to do so. All in all, this article must be largely rewritten and expanded, in order to provide a wider and better picture of Djindjice's influence on modern Serbian politics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reollun (talk • contribs) 22:05, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed, adding POV tag — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prinsgezinde (talk • contribs) 08:31, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
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