Talk:West Asia

Population in statistical data error

the population when arranged in ascending or descending order, it is arranged as if the digits after the point are decimal numbers Y Aquila (talk) 16:01, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Including Greece

I was wondering if you can include Greece as Greece does have territory in West Asia? Greece can be considered as a non-contiguous transcontinental country as the islands of Rhodes, Kos, Samos, Chios, Lesbos, Kastellorizo, Strongyli Megistis, and Ro are actually closer to Anatolia (which is an Asia) than mainland Europe. Even the Europe Asia division along to the Aegean Sea places these islands on the Asian side of the divide. Please take this into consideration and have a great day! TomTom7474 (talk) 02:45, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

That's not what sources do, so we don't do it either. Remsense ‥ 诉 02:48, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean? TomTom7474 (talk) 13:20, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

No other reference work would list Greece as a West Asian country, and we reflect what reliable sources say about a subject. Remsense ‥ 诉 13:21, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

On Wiki, Greece is mentioned as transcontinental TomTom7474 (talk) 23:47, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Does it cite a source? Remsense ‥ 论 00:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

There is absolutely nothing within the Greece or the Geography of Greece articles which state that the country is in West Asia or is transcontinental. Archives908 (talk) 00:32, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Wiki mentions it TomTom7474 (talk) 18:59, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Wiki is not WP:RS. Please cease your WP:OR claims. Archives908 (talk) 21:39, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

The inclusion of only the southern Caucasus is unfounded and controversial

I don't want to start an edit war so I'll post here. The claim that the Greater Caucasus Mountains are the accepted border between Europe and Asia was sourced, in other articles, from Encyclopedia Britannica - and yet, that source doesn't say that at all. Here, it isn't even sourced at all. Encyclopedia Britannica only says that it's one of many ways to separate the two... Considering the socio-political context of the North Caucasus, as well as the fact that other ways to define the border don't include it in Eastern Europe, that shouldn't be the deciding definition. If Azerbaijan and Georgia are here, there's no reason Dagestan and the rest of the Northern Caucasus shouldn't be included. @Remsense

Crystalmenta (talk) 08:06, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I do not get the impulse by editors on articles like this one to do anything but look at the polities mentioned in sources and repeat them. It matters vanishingly little whether we count Russia as a West Asian polity for either Russia or West Asia unless one is imbuing the characterization with some sentimentality—or perhaps conversely, some exactitude—far beyond what can be justified. Remsense ‥ 论 09:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

You're showing your bias. We're not talking about Russia. Russia doesn't need to count as a West Asian polity for the North Caucasian region that it is governing (in a limited fashion, as it is full of autonomous republics) to be recognized as West Asian. Crystalmenta (talk) 09:41, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, you didn't really address the geographical matter at all, just took an ad hominem jab at what you guessed I was trying to do... Crystalmenta (talk) 09:43, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Which part of the article is this meant to change? The Caucauses watershed is a common geographic boundary, although such boundaries are less in fashion these days. Teh only place entites are listed is Statistical data, and that is a grabbag of statistics that doesn't have much relevance to the article topic anyway. CMD (talk) 11:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

in the intro and in the countries, the north caucasus should be included. that's my take. Crystalmenta (talk) 17:05, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

This is based on standard definitions, not geographical pedantry. There's a map at the top of the page and you can see where the boundaries lie. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Standard definitions do NOT include Dagestan and Chechnya as places in Europe. If anything, geographical pedantry about the mountains is what caused this in the first place. I really don't understand why the status quo needs to be kept at all costs even when it's wrong. Crystalmenta (talk) 21:52, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Just repeat what sources say, no one cares about your or my opinions or deductions in addition to that. Remsense ‥ 论 21:53, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

The claim that it isn't in West Asia isn't sourced, and to the contrary, it's referencing other badly cited articles on Wikipedia. Crystalmenta (talk) 21:55, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Then feel free to remove unsourced material and replace it with material that is sourced. Remsense ‥ 论 21:56, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I added an additional source to the edit. Also, in the citations used at the top of the page, ending with "Caucasus", the entire Caucasus is mentioned multiple times as part of West Asia :) So there are now multiple sources corroborating this claim. Crystalmenta (talk) 22:13, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

It's extremely pedantic to have the article insist it's only the southern part of the Caucasus that's in Europe. None of it is. None of it ever was. Historically, politically, geographically - it's just flat out wrong. Crystalmenta (talk) 21:54, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

The source you cited does not define West Asia. This article isn't about Europe, which is what the source you cited defines instead. Remsense ‥ 论 22:10, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Have you actually read the source?! It clearly states where Europe ends and West Asia begins. The line described by the source ends far north of Chechnya and Dagestan... In addition, kindly look at the sources cited already. They have the whole Caucasus listed under Asian climates, in the borders of the Asian continents, etc. Crystalmenta (talk) 22:22, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

For reference to other readers, [1] is the source I'm citing. Crystalmenta (talk) 22:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

"In the main, this report uses the common geographical definition [of Europe] which excludes the trans-Caucasian republics, Greenland and Anatolia. The border with Asia is taken to follow the Ural mountains, the river Ural to the Caspian Sea, the Manych valley to the Sea of Azov and the Black Sea, and the Bosporus." Crystalmenta (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Is this source good?

"The most convenient geographic boundary—one that has been adopted by most geographers—is a line that runs south from the Arctic Ocean along the Ural Mountains and then turns southwest along the Emba River to the northern shore of the Caspian Sea; west of the Caspian, the boundary follows the Kuma-Manych Depression to the Sea of Azov and the Kerch Strait of the Black Sea. Thus, the isthmus between the Black and Caspian seas, which culminates in the Caucasus mountain range to the south, is part of Asia."

[2] Crystalmenta (talk) 22:31, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Again, that's not a source defining West Asia, but defining Europe in relation to Asia, so it's not actually a source here. Different geographical delineations have different parameters, so a definition simply drawing a line between Europe and Asia doesn't necessarily match up with the UN & others' geoscheme that creates divisions like "West Asia", etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:19, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

That's from the Encyclopedia Britannica page about Asia, not Europe. It's defining Asia. A border is always between 2 entities. I linked it.

And - I'll repeat once more that the sources already listed on the page define the entire Caucasus as part of West Asia. They're not repeated correctly. Crystalmenta (talk) 11:28, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Further down that page - "West Asia includes the highlands of Anatolia, the Caucasus, and the Armenian and Iranian highlands." Linking it again. Crystalmenta (talk) 11:30, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Did you look at the map, which clearly highlights nothing north of Georgia and Azerbaijan? Iskandar323 (talk) 13:06, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

which map? the first map on the page, under "asian soil groups" the entire caucasus is included. and the text says the same thing. you're reaching at this point. Crystalmenta (talk) 20:07, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The map on the original Britannia Asia entry that you pointed to as an apparent source. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:05, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

As I said, the first map on the page includes the entire Caucasus. Crystalmenta (talk) 18:20, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't know what you're referencing. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:24, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Ctrl+f "Soils" on the page, it comes up as the first map on the page. The entire Caucasus is included, which goes along with the text. Crystalmenta (talk) 18:28, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

the existing sources on the page already agree with me, two new sources i brought in agree with me, the existing text is wrong in its interpretation of the sources... what more do you want? should i pull up exactly where sources already cited in the page state the entire caucasus is in asia? Crystalmenta (talk) 20:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, if you can pull up a quote saying standard definitions of west Asia are typically delineated as including bits north of the Caucasus mountains and in Russia, that would be great. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:09, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

On this source, 6th currently in the West Asia article, page 121 - Asia includes the entire Caucasus. Same goes for the first map on the page I brought in from Encyclopedia Britannica that clearly states twice that the Caucasus is in West Asia. Crystalmenta (talk) 18:27, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Here: West Asia is used pragmatically and there is no one correct or generally accepted definition. The West Asia region overlaps with the Middle East region significantly, with West Asia including the Caucasus region and excluding North Africa. Also, it should be noted that while some include Egypt in West Asia, others argue it is in the Middle East. Crystalmenta (talk) 18:31, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

But the map doesn't include any part of Russia, so ... Iskandar323 (talk) 18:40, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Here: "In his article, Yarosh documents the role played by travel and mobility in the extension of Sufi brotherhoods across an expansive West Asian realm that incorporates the Muslim societies of the Russian Caucasus" Crystalmenta (talk) 18:35, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok, so cycling back to the core topic here – we're not trying to embrace every possible usage of the term in isolated sources. We're trying to present the academic or political mainstream, which the UN geoscheme indisputably is. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:42, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm bowing out. Thank you for your time. Crystalmenta (talk) 18:46, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

for someone who takes part in relevant wiki projects, i find it odd you'd be the one championing this idea that dagestan and chechnya are european areas and not west asian regions occupied by russia. nobody in the world but wikipedia would ever dare call these places europe. Crystalmenta (talk) 20:18, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The mountains are just the normal boundary, geographically, and these two regions are to the North. And this isn't about whether they are considered part of "Europe" in the general sense or cultural sense, but in the UN geoscheme of "West Asia". I don't think Kamchatka is Eastern Europe either, but the geoscheme is for grouping countries, not bits of countries, so there's no overlap. This is what makes it different from previous regional groups, such as "Middle East", which were horribly vague. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:18, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I get what you're saying, I find it unfortunate, however, that we rely on a geoscheme that looks at polities and not at geography along with geo-politics and geographical sociology. The mountain border is but one definition, another definition that isn't any less accepted puts the border at the river connecting the Black and Caspian seas (brought up previously in this discussion). Other definitions (which I may disagree with but are still championed) split the Caucasus from west to east, with Georgia and Armenia in Europe and Dagestan, Chechnya and Azerbaijan in West Asia. There is no consensus. However, insisting on splitting a region in half because of the regimes that control it seems... odd. And motivated by factors which should not concern an encyclopedia. Crystalmenta (talk) 18:42, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

It's perfectly valid to have this fine-grained discussion, but the better place for it is probably on the Caucasus page, and the discussion of where it falls based on different definitions. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:14, 6 September 2024 (UTC)