Talk:Sarasadat Khademalsharieh

Article name

She is known by the vast majority of sources as "Sarasadat Khademalsharieh". This page was moved by the same user who some months ago also moved Salem Saleh to "Salem Abdulrahman", although no source cites him with the latter name. (This move was soon reverted). I think it's better to move this page title back to "Sarasadat Khademalsharieh". Sophia91 (talk) 18:59, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Happy to see them both moved. With Khademalsharieh I can understand why there may be the alternative version Khadem-al-sharieh that I have seen about somewhere, which could explain the page move, but the media reports go with the full name. Perhaps as she progresses she might prefer to be known alternatively and we can move the article as and when. Jkmaskell (talk) 20:29, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

I just tried to move the page title back to the old title, but it doesn't work as "A page of that name already exists, or the name you chose is invalid". That's strange, as the move is just a redirect to the old title. Does anyone know how to procede? Sophia91 (talk) 19:13, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

It's a bother, since the WikiMedia software won't allow us regular folk to move pages over redirects that have been edited even once. This happens often when the redirect has been edited to add a template classifying the redirect. I think Mohsen1248 knows this and deliberately poisons the redirects so his damage can't be easily repaired. (The {{R from move}} he added to the redirect is pointless and unnecessary, except to screw with other editors.) For help you have to follow the process at Requested Moves. Quale (talk) 02:04, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

I have reverted the latest page move made by Mohsen1248, though they have simply deleted a message left on their Talk page. I don't think this is the end of it. Jkmaskell (talk) 20:10, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

The user protested at the time that the name is inaccurate. To quote part of it from my Talk page, "Anybody who understand her mother language know her name is Sara Khadem, this is also what she uses for her facebook page. specially that word "Sadat" is a title, not an actual part of her name. that was a mistake to not put a space between Sara and Sadat and since FIDE uses her official passport, they spread the mistake. and I am trying to improve wikipedia by correcting that mistake.". As much as I'd love to just blatantly ignore it given sources do use the full name as it is on the article, the user may have a point. Can anyone shed any light on this? It would be nice to have this settled. Jkmaskell (talk) 19:27, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

In my opinion WP:COMMONNAME settles it. Use the title that an English speaker would expect, and that is the name that English-language sources use. Given this I think the complaint is irrelevant. We don't need to adjudicate disputes about what a person's "true" name is, especially when that name is natively written in Arabic script. If there was variation in English sources then we would need to make a determination, but as far as I can tell, in this case there isn't. Quale (talk) 02:21, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree that "We don't need to adjudicate disputes about what a person's 'true' name is", and particularly enjoyed reading that, after scratching my head over the "true" name in another Wiki article. I would like to add a couple of observations:

I went to the Persian language Wiki article for S.K., and copy-pasted her name into Google Translate, and it came out as the full name, not as the short name. So if some Iranian guy would like to persuade us to use the short name, he might want to drag the Persian article in that direction first.

I just read an (English language) Al-Jazeera interview with S.K. in which they used the short name. You can find it by typing the short name into Google. So perhaps the day is not far off when the short name is commonly seen in English-language sources. Bruce leverett (talk) 03:35, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Quoth WP:COMMONNAME: "When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others." The anonymous user has raised a problem with the name Sarasadat – nobody who is familiar with her culture would call her that. (Recall the first WP:NAMINGCRITERIA: "The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize.") Sara introduces herself in English as "Sara Khademalsharieh", and is introduced by other English speakers as Sara. The Guardian calls her Sara Khadem. That's enough for me to support dropping "Sadat" from her name. FIDE messes up player names all the time; we should be wary not to perpetuate their mistakes. Cobblet (talk) 05:09, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Both names are actually double-barreled I think, i.e. Sara-Sadat Khadem-al-Sharieh. "Sara Khadem" is obviously easier for us westerners but would she use this form of her name in Iran? MaxBrowne (talk) 01:59, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 7 March 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:34, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

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Sarasadat Khademalsharieh → Sara Khadem – Since there is some dispute about this, we should get it settled by a formal move request. FIDE (the international chess federation) does use her full name, but a number of sources, including Al-Jazeera and the Guardian, call her Sara Khadem. See [1]. PatGallacher (talk) 22:23, 7 March 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:28, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• Support per my comments in the previous thread. Cobblet (talk) 05:16, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose She's mostly known for chess, and chess's international governing body lists her under this name. Nothing wrong with a redirect of course. MaxBrowne (talk) 10:28, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia diverges from FIDE's naming practices in numerous cases. This is yet another case where there are good reasons to do so. Cobblet (talk) 17:23, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

The English language Iranian source presstv gives Sarasadat Khademalsharieh. I am presuming Iranians know how to spell the names of their own people when writing in English and this should be given some weight. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:04, 9 March 2017 (UTC) Here's another presstv article where they go for "Sara Sadat Khadem al-Sharieh". MaxBrowne (talk) 02:07, 9 March 2017 (UTC) edit: I asked for help at the Persian wikipedia, we'll see if anything comes of that. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:32, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMMONAME. Al-Jazzara even introduces her as Sarasadat Khademalsharieh, better known as Sara Khadem! Google hits for "Sara Khadem" are 35,900 compared to just 6,600 for "Sarasadat Khademalsharieh.". The player uses "Sara Khadem" on her Instagram page and her Facebook page. Respected sources such as The New York Times and The Guardian use "Sara Khadem."--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:15, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose I have just read the wikifa's discussion page regarding this article. I am a native Farsi (Persian) language speaker and active in wikifa as well. I support the current Sarasadat Khademalshrieh as this is her full name and as she is a chess champion she is known by fide under this name. That some media call her by a short name Sara Khadem (maybe the media made this short name to make it easier to print or pronounce) is not the case for wikipedia to follow.Gharouni ^Talk 12:38, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Have you read WP:COMMONAME? We go by the most common rendering of the name, not the "full" name. Bill Clinton is at Bill Clinton, not "William Jefferson Clinton."--Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:21, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

There are also many reliable sources that use her full name, Times of India and other English language Indian media for example. I'm sure she would be very flattered to be compared to Bill Clinton but she is far from a household name, giving WP:COMMON less weight. WP:COMMON also says "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." MaxBrowne (talk) 23:47, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

It's not inaccurate though - it appears to be the name she uses for English-speaking audiences.Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:00, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the WP:COMMONAME. I agree with the rationale behind Bill Clinton's case. However, I believe it is not the case for this article. Bill Clinton was known by this name since childhood and all people in the world know him by the same name not the full name. But Sarasadat was known by this name from her childhood and even in Farsi media she has been mentioned by this name because Sara Khadem can refer to another person not this person. Khademalsharieh is one name like Clinton. Khadem is a family name but it is too different from Khadealsharieh. Assume we move Farsi title to sara khadem (it was and I transferred it to current full name) then many readers think it is not her page because the name was shorten and is unknown to many readers.Gharouni ^Talk 01:11, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

I wonder how Alajazeera reports she was "better known" by Sara Khadem? were is their reference?, As I have mentioned before It is not the case for Wikipedia to follow what Media suggests. This can be added to the article that "she is known by some media (refer to Aljazeera and ...) as Sara Khadem."Gharouni ^Talk 01:26, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps you can educate us on Iranian naming conventions? "Sara" is a familiar personal name in many countries, including English speaking countries. Is "Sadat" (which I think means something like "leader" in Arabic) a part of her name, or is it some kind of title? Should it be written as one word ("Sarasadat") or two ("Sara Sadat")? Khadem I think is her family name, is "al-Sharieh" a part of this too? Should it be written as "Khademalsharieh" or "Khadem al-Sharieh"? MaxBrowne (talk) 08:26, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your interest to learn Iranian naming conventions. Firstly, in regard to names like Sarasadat in a nutshell they belong to Sayyids meaning Descendants of Muhammad so for this reason her name is sarasadat you cannot put away sadat. Yes there are many females in Iran as well their names is Sara but they are not sayyids. Khademolsharieh is her family name in one word. to make it easy you can put dash in between al and so on but in farsi writing it writes in one word at least a half space between words. I Refer you to farsi article (Title). However, sarasadat can be written as Sara Sadat. Regarding other persian names if you have questions I am more than happy to answer if I know anything or I can ask other farsi speaking users.Gharouni ^Talk 15:02, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

So, is she a descendant of Muhammad? That might be worth mentioning in the article? PatGallacher (talk) 15:17, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Based on her name she is. Because it is illegal to add Sadat (plural of sayyid) to your name or family name if you are not a Sayyed. I don't see any good reason to mention her being a descendant of Muhammad in the article. It is not necessary.Gharouni ^Talk 15:34, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Interviewer: "Could you tell us your name, your age, and which country you represent?" S. K.: "I'm Sara Khademalsharieh, I'm 17 years old and I'm playing for Iran."[2] Who are we to say we know better what to call her? Cobblet (talk) 19:40, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

I appreciate your discussion. However, you might have read the title of your youtube reference ironically reads "A quick chat with Sarasadat Khademalsharieh". Anyway, based on wiki policies I am totally oppose to transfer to Sara Khadem, but based on youtube link I agree to drop sadat. We all know her full name is sarasadat khademolsharie with no doubt. she introduced herself as sara is to make it easier for English speaking people to understand her name or mention her in reports etc. I give you an example, my name is like her name is a 4 part name (like A B for first name and C D for family name). My first names are made of 9 English letters because it is a 2 name and my family name made of 16 letters. I live in an English speaking country. In official documents my full name is used. If someone asks me what is may name I only say my name is A C not A B C D. I make my name shorter to be mentioned easier but if an article is going to be created about me in wiki it should be A B C D because many people in Iran are with the same name like my short name but the only person with this full name is me. I hope my explanation makes sense.Gharouni ^Talk 15:03, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Even if you could somehow be certain that S. K. is the only person with her full name, that is missing the point of WP:COMMONNAME: "Wikipedia generally prefers the name that is most commonly used" in "independent, reliable English-language sources;" that is, those "with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" (which FIDE is demonstrably not, IMO). If your full name only appears on official documents, and you only use your shorter name in public rather than your full name, and if there is no other Wikipedia article about a person with the same name as your shorter name, then the correct title for your article should be your shorter name, just like Bill Clinton. For S. K. the matter is not so clear, since (as you pointed out) both forms of both of her names are used. It's not so clear to me which form of her last name is more common (and to break the tie I would go with what she chooses herself), but Sara is clearly preferred, especially in contexts where S. K. herself is present. She didn't write the title of the YouTube video. Cobblet (talk) 20:13, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. I absolutely agree with what you have mentioned and what WP:COMMONNAME points. Looking at your reasoning, wikipedia policies, references given here and in the article and my search for other interviews with Farsi media I believe we only can drop sadat from the article and keep the family name Khademolsharieh.Gharouni ^Talk 01:04, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

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