Talk:Robert Hale (bass-baritone)/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: UndercoverClassicist (talk · contribs) 06:19, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I can take a look at this one. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:19, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

• Initial comments below. Mostly fairly small matters of phrasing, particularly to get the feel of English word order. A few suggestions about wikilinks and points where things could be more clearly explained or defined for non-operatic readers. As ever, please do shout if I've been unclear or unfair, or if I've misunderstood something. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:56, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments

• "heavier roles" might be a touch idiomatic: what exactly does it mean here? See later Hale shifted towards heavier repertoire.

  If you read bass-baritone you are taken to baritone which uses "light" and "heavy". I think even without instructions it may be understood what the difference of a light voice and a heavy voice is. --GA

  I wasn't sure if it meant something like "more substantial" or "roles with more gravitas" (in other words, bigger parts): if it has a specific musical meaning, might be worth an EFN? I appreciate that the information is on the baritone page, but ideally we shouldn't rely on other pages to explain this one. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

  Learning. No, it doesn't mean more substantial but a different voice type, which is, however, already in bass-baritone. Should we perhaps say that he was a bass-baritone only then? I specified baritone for the City Opera, hope that helps. I doubt, though, that we should be that specific in the lead. --GA

  I think the categorisation of his voice is fine, we just need to keep the description of the roles in language likely to be understood by most readers. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:46, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  repeated bass-baritone with the first such roles --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:07, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

• It's general practice to begin a biography's body text with the subject's full name, but that's a convention rather than any sort of rule.

  Practices seem to differ by topics, but I'm happy to do that. (I find it even more important for the sentence telling of death, and have often be reverted to just surname.)

  More generally: this article has a long history, begun as a translation from German. I met it only recently, on the sad occasion of his death. A user watching asked if I'd take him to GA, and I thought why not - now is the time to improve, now that he is on the Main page and interest high. The history explains a certain unevenness, and the recent additions were made in some haste. --GA

• Per MOS:ENDURE, rather than saying "now Southern Nazarene University", we may wish to give the year at which it changed.

  "some haste": it was there before me, and not any of my priorities when making the biography fit for the Main page, and even now I don't think it matters for him. I believe it simply serves those who may know it under the new name. --GA

  Not a major issue: presumably they're not likely to change their name again any time soon. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

• in the category Singer of the Year: more usual as in the Singer of the Year category

  I am German as such things tell, - it probably came with the translation from German, but I still don't notice, - fixed --GA

• where he was awarded the artist diploma: this sounds like it might have been slightly lost in translation: what is the artist's diploma?

  sorry, I don't know, - it even was a red link. I thought it came from German, but the German article doesn't have it. I know that students of German Musikhochschule can graduate as teachers, or with a concert exam, but have no idea of American studies, and the exact terms of graduation. --GA

  Fair enough: is there a source we can go back to here? I wonder if it's just the same as saying a BA degree, for example? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

  Possibly, but I really don't know. Should we just say "graduated"? --GA

  Sounds fine to me. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:46, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  dropped it all - we said already bachelor and masters --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:07, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

• Suggest explaining briefly what the Metropolitan Opera National Council Auditions, as they don't seem to be auditions in the usual sense of the word.

  While true that they no auditions in the usual sense, they are perhaps the best-known singing competition for opera, and an explanation would hold up readers who know that, no? --GA

  As I understand it, the usual idea here is to err on the side of explaining the obvious: granted, many of the readers of this article will be opera fans, but people will come to it through Random Article, link-chasing and so on without any operatic expertise. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

  I don't see any "operatic" expertise needed to understand that when the sentence begins with "won" it might be a competition, so I feel adding an extra word "competition" would just state the obvious. --GA

  To my eyes, having not initially heard of them, it looked like a mistake (as if he had auditioned for a part, and then been given it). It would help many readers a lot if we were able to say something like "regarded as one of the world's most prestigious operatic competitions" or similar. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:46, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  explained on my talk that the pompous title suggests already that it is not simply an audition --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:07, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

• Very nit-picky, but can you have a title role in an opera where only part of the opera is a name?

  I think yes when your role is mentioned, and a repetition would be - a repetition. In most cases, it also implies that it's a lead role. --GA

  I'd prefer lead role, I think, but what you say here is perfectly sensible. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

  If I said lead role, I'd still have to name it, as a repetition. --GA

  Fair enough. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:46, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

• He remained with the company for 10 years, where was often seen alongside Beverly Sills: missing a he, I think. Can we briefly introduce Sills (e.g. by voice type?)

  the source calls her Prima donna, and she was in more than respect, not only singing the most complex coloratura lead roles but (later) also managing the company, and the Metropolitan Opera, - that can't be said briefly, and is rather well-known. Would it help to say "as the leading lady"? --GA

  I'm not sure how well known it is outside opera circles: "the noted prima donna" or similar? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

  tried "starring", because prima donna may again be unfamiliar to readers not used to opera speak --GA

  Very true. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:46, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

• Would any of these operatic characters and composers merit a link?

  I'd say no. They are in the operas' articles and would create a sea of blue. We (project opera) link to a composer if the opera has no article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:46, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

• the then neglected belcanto: hyphenate then-neglected as a compound modifier.

  not convinced, but if you say so --GA

• also Opernhaus Zürich, Deutsche Oper am Rhein and Oper Frankfurt, among others.: this doesn't quite read right in English. Suggest starting a new sentence: "he also performed the role at..."

  I tried it differently, because we'd loose the connection to the others that came surprisingly the same year as the first, and the ref says so. The others can't have been much later if at all, - he met his wife at the Oper Frankfurt, and they married that same year, but that would be OR ;) --GA

• again first as the Holländer: comma after again, I think.

  the comma belongs before the again - thank you for noticing something was wrong --GA

  Not sure it's quite idiomatic: do we mean that his first appearance in New York was a reprisal of his role as the Hollander? If so, perhaps something to that effect? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

  I don't follow, sorry. It wasn't his first in New York, of course. He sang for 10 years at the NYCO. But it was his first at the Met. The Holländer again, that he had sung (almost) all over Europe, and finally brought home, so to speak. How would you say that? --GA

  Seems to be in a good place now. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:46, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

• Reviewer John Rockwell from the New York Times noted about his 100th performance in the role that he made great impact: better ordered as something like "Reviewing Hale's 100th performance in the New York Times, John Rockwell noted that...". The quotation that follows doesn't, on its own and out of context, say "great impact" to me: it almost reads as if it's going to be followed by a "but...".

  I put the 100th in the previous sentence, how is that? - I also quote the whole passage, - there's no "but", knowing to declaim a Wagnerian phrase is a rare thing ;) - problem of that review is that it compares to a previous performance, which makes is difficult to extract something meaningful. - The reviewer has an article, so his words count, it seems ;) --GA

• Link Wotan?

  no, as above --GA

  I wonder if this is a bit of a special case in that the character (god) exists beyond the operas, but not a huge deal. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

  This is actually true for many roles. People unfamiliar with the topic should first read about the stage works. Reading about Odin is a long detour, which can be taken from the opera by those who want it. --GA

• (the Wanderer in its part Siegfried): this one took me a minute. Suggest "and the part of the Wanderer...".

  (I said "part" for the longest time - because the German word is "Partie" - but was trained that in opera it's "role".) tried something --GA

• at Hessisches Staatstheater Wiesbaden: in English, use the Hessisches Staatstheater...

  well, that's hard for a German, because "Hessisches Staatstheater" is equal to "Das hessische Staatstheater", - it has the article in the name, leading to saying "the the" in a way. Take "La Scala", - we say "at La Scala", not "at the La Scala", and it's just more obvious. --GA

  The more you know... seems that not all English HQRS know that, but happy to defer here: I'm not going to argue with you about German grammar! UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

  thank you, only: it's not at all about German grammar, - I'd just like as much respect for German grammar as we have for Italian ;) --GA

• Explain briefly what the Jahrhundertring was (MOS:NOFORCELINK).

  impossible to say that briefly, just take the legendary DYK: ... that a French team created the Jahrhundertring (scene pictured) of Wagner's Ring Cycle at the centenary Bayreuth Festival in 1976, causing "a near-riot"? - Which part of that would you suggest to include? --GA

  Well, that page has this as a short desc: Centenary production of Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen at the Bayreuth Festival. Would that be a start? Could always cut "at the...". UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

  well, taking it, but I'd prefer readers to visit one of the articles I'm really proud of ;) --GA

• He came to regard the company as his artistic home, where he learned not only the music of great roles but also meaning and pronunciation of the text, and acting: and acting sits oddly here. Suggest where he learned not acting and the music of great roles, but...

  I don't follow why "acting" would move to the front. - I found it hard to paraphrase, so use the full quote now, please check if that's better. --GA

  It's good, but I think it should be attributed: are these his own words? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:46, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

• The Ring production: should Ring be italicised?

  yes --GA

• Hale appeared as Wotan and Holländer: and the Holländer?

  not convinced, "Der fliegende Holländer" is a name rather than a person from a country (Dutchman) --GA

  Ah, I'd misunderstood: his name is Holländer? There were quite a few uses of the Holländer elsewhere in the article: might be worth a check that these are all correct? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

  Well, it's not like a surname, it's a mythology character "Der fliegende Holländer" (The Flying Dutchman), but colloquially shortened to "der Holländer" (the Dutchman), not meaning someone from the Netherlands but this character. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:07, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  OK: so it should be the Dutchman (der Holländer), rather than simply "Dutchman" or Holländer, surely? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 22:35, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

• Suggest saying where the Royal Opera House is: there might (?) only be one actually known by that name, but most readers won't know that.

  yes, I had forgotten that this was the first mentioning of the house in this article. In the previous article, it came sooner in the career. --GA

• Royal Danish Opera, Finnish National Opera,: the in both cases. This sentence seems to imply that the Royal Opera House, the Vienna State Opera and so on are not leading opera houses: could perhaps add an "other leading opera houses".

  the the and other added, - however, the last mentioned was San Diego ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:46, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

• he was Pizarro in Fidelio: I think we need he played rather than he was. Ditto He was Wotan

  problem is that we don't have many choices besides "appeared" and "performed", and "played" is impossibly for that bad guy, - nothing playful about the character, and the word misses the singing aspect - trying "portrayed" --GA

  Happy with that. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

• sang the solo in Beethoven's Ninth Symphony: this reads oddly to me, but I think it's grammatically fine as long as the whole sympathy was performed (that is, he was essentially one of the orchestra). Perhaps sang the solo in a performance of...?

  looks like I missed "bass" --GA

• Could perhaps do with a bit of explanation of the plot of Salome in order to explain the "killing my husband" joke. The title also seems to be linked on second mention.

  well, not only opera goers but also bible readers and museum goers are familiar with Salome wanting the head of Jochanaan, - explaining makes jokes not always better ;) - added Tosca, where she herself kills, with a knife meant for fruit --GA

  At the risk of beating this drum too many times, if we're not going to assume that readers know who the Pope is, we can't assume that they know who Salome was. It's quite an opaque line if you don't know either of those stories. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:46, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  We talk about one funny line by his first wife. The specific plot (one relationship with one killing in one example) is not relevant to his biography (as explained on my talk). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:07, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

• Hale was a National Patron: I think MOS:CAPS would like this decapitalised. Worth clarifying that he was the national patron for the US, as so much of the above has focused on central Europe?

  I'd like to know when he became a resident of the U.S. again, but didn't find it, - ok. --GA

• all three issued on compact discs: this seems like an esoteric detail to include? Ditto with its soundtrack also issued on CD

  gone --GA

• Decca seems to be linked on second mention.

  fixed --GA

• The article has one image: nothing wrong with that, but could perhaps add images of some of these opera houses, or of the characters he played?

  opera houses no, not specific to his bio, characters no, because we sadly don't have them - I'm so happy that Storye book managed to find his photograph. --GA

  if more images they could perhaps be of Sills and Friedrich, people with impact on his career. --GA

Thank you for your attention to detail! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:46, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the responses, - replied. I changed indenting for clarity about who said what, all my later replies on level 3. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:30, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay: I've made a few replies. We're certainly very close here: let me know what you think of the above. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:46, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, busy all day weekend, but no rush --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:48, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.