Talk:Mauro Cichero (footballer, born 1951)

Requested move 20 July 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus is for option 2. i.e. Rename father's article to Mauro Cichero (footballer, born 1951) and rename son's page to Mauro Cichero (footballer, born 1995) .  — Amakuru (talk) 10:57, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

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Mauro Cichero → Mauro Cichero (footballer) – This footballer has a son with the same name: Mauro Cichero (soccer). Requesting move due to the same name. The father's page was a one sentence stub before I improved it, so I don't really think either is WP:PRIMARYNAME. Originally when I created the page for the son, I thought he was American-born, hence why I named the page with the soccer tag instead of footballer. The son was born in Venezuela, but moved to the US at age 4 and played college soccer and now professionally in the USA. Soccerway also lists his nationality as American with a birth nation of Venezuela, but the USL League website lists his nationality as Venezuelan and a reference does quote him as saying he would like to represent the Venezuelan team like his brothers did. It could perhaps be changed to footballer or remain as soccer - I'm not sure which is more appropriate. So I propose two options:

Option 1: Rename father's article to Mauro Cichero (footballer) and leave son's page as is at Mauro Cichero (soccer).

Option 2: Rename father's article to Mauro Cichero (footballer, born 1951) and rename son's page to Mauro Cichero (footballer, born 1995)

RedPatchBoy (talk) 02:15, 20 July 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 08:22, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. RedPatchBoy (talk) 02:16, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Thanks for your expansion work - great job! Doesn't the current setup work fine, with the hatnotes pointing back-and-forth? Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 08:05, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
  • No, it's an incomplete disambiguation. They are both "soccer" players.--Ortizesp (talk) 13:49, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support Option 1 - that is sufficient disambiguation where there are only 2 players by the same name. GiantSnowman 11:47, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support Option 2, since both are technically Venezuelan footballers per FIFA standards, and more complete disambiguation.--Ortizesp (talk) 13:48, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support Option 2, since both are technically Venezuelan footballers per FIFA standards, and more complete disambiguation.--Bob247 (talk) 22:30, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support Option 1, as per WP:NCPDAB - "Years of birth and death are not normally used as disambiguators (readers are more likely to be seeking this information than to already know it)" Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 07:55, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support Option 1, as per WP:NCPDAB - "Years of birth and death are not normally used as disambiguators. I also propose to move this content without disambiguator to a DAB page because a DAB page is not yet created. 180.242.8.27 (talk) 12:12, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment To be fair, per WP:NCPDAB you both quoted the beginning of the sentence, but the full sentence at WP:WCPNAB reads "Years of birth and death are not normally used as disambiguators (readers are more likely to be seeking this information than to already know it), although this may be necessary when there are multiple people with the same name and tag. Where the disambiguation can't be resolved in a straightforward manner by such more specific qualifiers, e.g. for the two notable poker players called David Baker, date of birth can be added in this format: Name (qualifier, born YYYY)."
    This supports the use of birth year. The key part of the renaming of these articles pertains to the younger Cichero. WP:FOOTBALL typically says people gets disambiguated with footballer, unless they are Armerican, Canadian, or Australian - in which case they get soccer. So the issue really should be weather he should be called footballer due to being born in Venezuela and spending some of his formative years in Spain or soccer due to spending some childhood and his entire playing career to date in the United States, rather than personal preference to appearance of a year given Wikipedia specifically allows it in this situation. A DAB page can and likely will be set up for these players anyways at Mauro Cichero once the elder's page is moved RedPatchBoy (talk) 12:31, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support Option 2 is my official position. Not sure if nominator is allowed to vote though RedPatchBoy (talk) 12:31, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support Option 2 they say football in Venezuela not soccer. Year isn't an issue. If you get to a disambiguation page and see 1951 and 1995 as options, you'll know which page you're looking for. AussieBoy5 (talk) 23:04, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support Option 2. "Soccer" and "footballer" are no disambiguators at all, given soccer is used as an alternative name for football and also given that both are Venezuelan, where "footballer" is the usual term. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:49, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

—Relisting. RedPatchBoy (talk) 20:54, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

• Support Option 2 per Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (sportspeople)#RfC: Does WP:ENGVAR suffice for disambiguating footballers from soccer players? DrKay (talk) 16:51, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support Option 2 - Although they're different words, "soccer" and "footballer" are functionally the same as disambiguators. The better move is to use their year of birth. – PeeJay 20:58, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support Option 1 - the son is considered American, where soccer is the more common term for the sport. Hatnotes should be sufficient. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 20:59, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Also, do note that Bobby Wood (footballer) and Bobby Wood (soccer) exist (though the American looks to be the primary topic to me). Would the decision here apply to all cases like this? Microwave Anarchist (talk) 21:04, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

• Support Option 1 - younger Cichero's notability is through playing in the USA. Also, has American citizenship having moved at a young age. --SuperJew (talk) 21:01, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support Option 2 - Mauro Cichero (soccer) as a title isn't entirely obvious to the casual reader that it refers to the player raised in the USA, rather than his father (who uses the disambiguator "footballer"). For an American, both are "soccer players", meaning that, since neither is WP:PRIMARYNAME, it wouldn't make sense to not disambiguate them using Option 2. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 21:28, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Comment I also feel it is worth noting that the father was a 'soccer' coach at a college/university in the United States. While it wasn't a prominent school, it adds to the ambiguity of the two words as well. RedPatchBoy (talk) 21:34, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

• Support Option 2 per arguments above. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 09:47, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support Option 2 Venezuelan player not USA -User:CharBatt1987 — Preceding unsigned comment added by CharBatt1987 (talk • contribs) 14:56, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.