Talk:Lipan Apache people

page creation

this page was created with the following note of authorship:

Enrique Maestas, Ph.D. Historian, Cuelgahen Nde Lipan Apache of Texas Anthropologist, Lipan Apache Band of Texas, Inc. [email protected]

– ishwar  (speak) 23:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

--72.144.166.214 (talk) 00:31, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

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Commas in serial sequences

With the utmost respect for Dr Maestas, it seems to me that we have missing commas in a couple of places, on this page, and I shall add them.

It may be argued that these are merely serial commas, and therefore the article should be left as it already is, in that respect.

My answer to that would be twofold:

1. The series to which I'm adding the commas are not merely series, in themselves, but are elements of compound indirect-object phrases, and thus require commas, for standard usage;
2. The subject of this article is a thoroughly American topic, and, as such, the American standard of comma-use applies, as per the Wikipedia Manual of Style.

catsmoke (talk) 14:00, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Need too know

My father went to the heavens in October of last year and for most of my adult life he has stated that a word he told us was the meaning behind who he was A”Shishinda; A MAN OF THE MOUNTAIN ! )please let me know if this is an Apache plains Indian saying Reach me @ Piñ[email protected] 2601:281:D47E:36C0:D1F7:2A4A:7044:BA8C (talk) 16:31, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Status

The 2009 and 2019 concurrent resolutions are honoric and non-binding. Further discussion at Talk:State-recognized_tribes_in_the_United_States#Lipan_Apache_Tribe_of_Texas. Yuchitown (talk) 14:38, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

I have just to to publish the following additions to the page (with the references not shown below). These edits keep all of your information but adds referenced information that was not previously there since this page suffers additional information and citations and it takes out the reference to NCSL list since this organization has removed the page. Since your input is needed before the edits are allowed to be published, please review and comment.

The Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas is headquartered in McAllen, Texas. The National Congress of American Indians identifies them as a state-recognized tribe. On March 18, 2009, the Texas Legislature passed congratulory resolutions HR 812 and SR 438 honoring the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas for being the present-day incarnation of the clans, bands, and divisions historically known as the Lipan Apache, who had lived in Texas and northern Mexico for 300 years and for having a culture rich in tradition and a heritage that had been handed down from one generation to the next, maintaining their sense of community from the days of treaties until the present day despite social, economic and military instabilities. In 2019, the Texas Legislature passed concurrent resolutions HCR171 and SCR 61 that restated the Legislature's sentiment expressed in the 2009 resolutions. These companion bills were signed by Governor Greg Abbott on May 25, 2019, and June 3, 2019, respectively. In January 2021, Texas Senate Bill 274 was introduced to formally recognize the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas; however, the bill died in the Senatorial State Affairs committee without discussion. Texas has "no legal mechanism to recognize tribes" with the closing of the Texas Indian Commission in 1989. Lwalkingwoman (talk) 00:00, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Disruptive edits and revert-warring

I have restored the page to the Nov. 11 version, from before the disruptive edits and revert-warring began. I strongly suggest that people wait for consensus to be reached at Talk:State-recognized_tribes_in_the_United_States#Lipan_Apache_Tribe_of_Texas before editing further. Best, - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:04, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice. I made the following revisions by added new information to the page and removed a link to the NCSL since the webpage does not exist anymore. Lwalkingwoman (talk) 23:26, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

In the new edits, I do not remove information, except for the error, but instead add more to the article. I request that you undo the changes and evaluate what has been added. Lwalkingwoman (talk) 23:28, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

The edits you are making are with the same POV push - though you are doing it in different places in the article, you are changing the text to say the same things, and all the removals and additions are having the same result. You were told to stop editing until consensus was reached.[1] You acknowledged receiving the message, yet proceeded to edit anyway.[2] You are in violation of 3RR and clearly engaged in an edit war. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 23:40, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Which edits are you referring to? The following is the information I just tried to publish:

The Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas is headquartered in McAllen, Texas. The National Congress of American Indians identifies them as a state-recognized tribe. On March 18, 2009, the Texas Legislature passed congratulory resolutions HR 812 and SR 438 honoring the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas for being the present-day incarnation of the clans, bands, and divisions historically known as the Lipan Apache, who had lived in Texas and northern Mexico for 300 years and for having a culture rich in tradition and a heritage that had been handed down from one generation to the next, maintaining their sense of community from the days of treaties until the present day despite social, economic and military instabilities. In 2019, the Texas Legislature passed concurrent resolutions HCR171 and SCR 61 that restated the Legislature's sentiment expressed in the 2009 resolutions. These companion bills were signed by Governor Greg Abbott on May 25, 2019, and June 3, 2019, respectively. In January 2021, Texas Senate Bill 274 was introduced to formally recognize the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas; however, the bill died in the Senatorial State Affairs committee without discussion. Texas has "no legal mechanism to recognize tribes" with the closing of the Texas Indian Commission in 1989. Lwalkingwoman (talk) 23:47, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

I am not here to argue content with you. Continue the discussion at the link above, where others editors in good standing, including another longstanding admin, have also told you to reach consensus on this content before proceeding. I am only here in an admin capacity. I reverted back to the version earlier in the month, before the edit warring began. I am making no call on which is the preferred version. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 23:51, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. It has been helpful. Lwalkingwoman (talk) 23:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Focus of this article

I don't want to duplicate any conversation about state recognition that is currently taking place at Talk:State-recognized_tribes_in_the_United_States#Lipan_Apache_Tribe_of_Texas. If my recent edits need to be reverted back to the November 11, 2022 version for the time being, that's fine by me. This article is about all Lipan Apache people throughout history, which is why I moved the mention of the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas to a section for the 21st century. I'm fine with reinserting mentions of the 2019 congratulatory resolutions mentioning this group. Yuchitown (talk) 16:06, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

The ideal situation down the road would be to create an article for the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas. Yuchitown (talk) 17:55, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Overhaul

If it's okay to edit it, this article is a trainwreck and needs a massive overhaul. I'd like to move the lengthy lists of bands lower down. Besides a self-published deadlink from chiricahuaapache.org, those sections are unreferenced and might need to be deleted soon if they can't be referenced. I'd like to break the history section into centuries and summarize what is published in historical literature. The published accounts largely agree with each other. Yuchitown (talk) 18:42, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Bands

The section below is insanely long for an unreferenced section. If anyone cares to provided references for this material, they are welcome to return it to the article. Yuchitown (talk) 23:23, 27 November 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

The Lipan Apache are divided into several regional divisions comprising several bands, including the Forest Lipan division — Chishîìhîî, Chishį́į́hį́į́, Tcici, Tcicihi (People of the Forest) — or Western Lipan, and the Plains Lipan division — Goãgahîî, Golgahį́į́, Kó'l kukä'ⁿ, Kó´l Kahäⁿ (Tall Grass People), High Grass People, "Prairie Men" — or Eastern Lipan.

Eastern Lipan

Eastern Lipan Apache are also known as Lipanes de Arriba, Upper Lipan, Northern Lipan, and Plains Lipan.

• Tséral tuétahä, Tséral tuétahäⁿ ("Red Hair People"): merged later with the Tche shä and Tsél tátli dshä, lived south of the Nueces River in Texas, about 1884 extinct.
• Tche shä, Tche shäⁿ ("Sun Otter People"): lived from San Antonio, Texas, south to the Rio Grande.
• Canneci N'de, Connechi, Chawnechi Nde' ("People Of The Pines", "Red Clay People", "Tall sticks in a row stand"): made up of many bands and ENIMES groups that joined together after being forced into and escaping slavery. Lived from Louisiana to East Texas along the Red River.
• Kó'l kukä'ⁿ, Kó´l Kahäⁿ, Cuelcahen Ndé ("Tall Grass People", "High Grass People"): lived on the Central Plains of Texas along the upper Colorado River and its tributaries southward to the Pecos River.
• Tchó'kanä, Tchóⁿkanäⁿ ("Pulverizing People", "Rubbing People"): merged later with the Tcha shka-ózhäye, lived west of Fort Griffin, Texas, along the upper Colorado River towards the western side of the Rio Grande, about 1884 extinct.
• Kóke metcheskó lähä, Kóke metcheskó lähäⁿ ("High-Beaked Moccasin People"): lived south of San Antonio as far as northern Mexico.
• Tsél tátli dshä, Tsél tátli dshäⁿ ("People of the Green Mountain"): merged later with Kóke metcheskó lähä, lived east of the Rio Grande along the lower Guadalupe River and Nueces River in Texas.
• Ndáwe qóhä, Ndáwe qóhäⁿ, Ndáwe ɣóhäⁿ ("Fire People", "Camp Circle People"): lived southeast of Fort Griffin, along the Colorado, San Saba and Llano Rivers towards the upper Nueces River and its tributaries the Frio River and Atascosa River in Texas.
• Shá i'a Nde, Shá'i'ánde, Nde 'Shini, Shä-äⁿ ("Northern People"): most northern group of the Lipan, sharing contacts with the Kiowa-Apache. They were forced to relocate 1884, when 300 people were moved to the Washita Agency in Oklahoma)
• Tsés tsembai ("Heads of Wolves People", "Bodies of Men People"): lived between the upper Brazos River and the Colorado River towards the west.
• Te'l kóndahä, Te'l kóndahäⁿ ("Wild Goose People"): lived west of Fort Griffin in Texas, along the upper Colorado River and its tributaries, were renowned and fierce warriors.

Western Lipan

The Western Lipan Apache are also known as Lipanes de Abajo, Lower Lipan, Southern Lipan, and Forest Lipan.

• Tu'tssn Ndé, Tùn Tsa Ndé, Tú sis Ndé, Kúne tsá, Konitsaii Ndé, Kónitsàà, Kónitsàà-hîî ("Big Water People", "Great Water People"): formerly a Natage band, they lived in the Gulf Coastal Plains towards both sides of the Rio Grande into Coahuila; in 1765 the greater part of them left San Lorenzo de la Santa Cruz mission (near Camp Wood in modern-day Texas) and went into Mexico. Their territory stretched deep into Coahuila, and was called Konitsąąįį gokíyaa ("Big Water People Country"). Magoosh's band Tú sis Ndé would later merge with the Mescalero as the "Tuintsunde".
• Tsésh ke shéndé, Tséc kecénde ("Painted Wood People"): perhaps lived formerly along the upper Brazos River, later moved down to live near Lavón, Mexico, about 1884 extinct.
• Tindi Ndé, Tú'e Ndé, Tüzhä'ⁿ, Täzhä'ⁿ ("People of the Mountain", "Uplanders"): lived along the upper Rio Grande, in southern New Mexico and in northern Mexico; about 1850 they were in close contact with the Mescalero.
• Tcha shka-ózhäye, Tchaⁿshka ózhäyeⁿ ("Little Breech-clout People"): lived along the eastern shore of the Rio Pecos in Texas, were close allies of the Nadahéndé or Natage (who later became the Mescalero and Salinero).
• Twid Ndé, Tú’é'diné Ndé ("Tough People of the Desert", "No Water People"): moved north and therefore away from the gulf area, later they lived between the Rio Grande and the Pecos River, near the juncture of the two. There they became much mixed with the Mescalero and merged later as Tuetinini with the Mescalero. The Tú sis Ndé ("Big Water People"), who tried to remain nearer their old territory on the Gulf but who were finally driven over into Mexico, are sometimes quite critical of the Twid Ndé because of their apostasy and mixture and classify them as a Mescalero or part-Mescalero group.
• Zit'is'ti Nde, Tséghát’ahén Nde, Tas steé be glui Ndé ("Rock Tied to Head People"): wearing a red turban-like headdress like the neighboring Mescalero, lived in the deserts of northern Mexico.

In addition, these bands were recorded:

• Bi'uhit Ndé, Buii gl un Ndé ("Many Necklaces People"): lived in the deserts and high plains of New Mexico and northern Mexico.
• Ha'didla 'Ndé, Goschish Ndé ("Lightning Storm People"): lived from the lower Rio Grande Valley in southern Texas into the Mexican state of Tamaulipas, today Dene Nde' descendants are still living in the Lower Rio Grande area (El Calaboz Rancheria)and a branch re-settled in British Columbia, Canada.
• Zuá Zuá Ndé ("People of the Lava Beds"): lived in the lava beds of eastern New Mexico and northwestern Texas and their descendants live today in Mescalero as well as South Texas.
• Jumano Ndé, Suma Ndé (Jumano Apache – "Red Mud Painted People"): have continued to live in the lands of the Lower and Middle Rio Grande, the Nueces River, the Frio River, and the Conchos River watersheds; today descendants live in the Middle-Upper Rio Grande, West Texas (El Polvo (Redford), El Mesquite, El Conejo, El Mulato Chihuahua).
• Indantųhé Ndé, Nakaiyé Ndé ("Mexican Clan People"): Mexicans who intermarried with Lipan bands who sought refuge in Mexico.

The Spanish associated these groupings with the Lipan:

• Lipiyánes (also Lipiyán, Lipillanes): a coalition of splinter groups of the Nadahéndé, Guhlkahéndé and Lipan of the 18th century under the leadership of Picax-Ande-Ins-Tinsle (Strong Arm), who fought and withstood the Comanche on the Plains.
• Natagés (Nah-tah-hay, also Natagees, Apaches del Natafé, Yabipais Natagé, Natageses, Natajes, from Nadahéndé – "People of the Mescal"): original Apachean group who would become the Mescalero and Salinero; were often called by the Spanish and Apaches themselves true Apaches, which had had a considerable influence on the decision making of some bands of the Western Lipan in the 18th century.
• Ypandes (Ypandis, Ipandes, Ipandi, Lipanes, Lipanos, Lipaines, Lapane, Lipanis, Lipan): they once travelled from the Pecos River in eastern New Mexico to the upper Colorado River, San Saba River and Llano River of central Texas across the Edwards Plateau southeast to the Gulf of Mexico, were close allies of the Natagés, therefore it seems certain that they were the Plains Lipan division (Golgahį́į́, Kó'l kukä'ⁿ – "Prairie Men"), not to be confused with Lipiyánes or Le Panis (French for the Pawnee). They were first mentioned in 1718 records as being near the newly established town of San Antonio, Texas.
• Llanero (Spanish meaning "plains dweller"): the name was historically used to refer to several different groups who hunted buffalo seasonally on the Great Plains, also referenced in eastern New Mexico and western Texas. (See also Carlanas.)
• Pelones (Bald Ones): lived far from San Antonio and far to the northeast of the Ypandes in the Red River of the South country of north central Texas. Although able to field 800 warriors, more than the Ypandes and Natagés together, they were described as less warlike because they had fewer horses than the Plains Lipan. Their population was estimated between 1,600 and 2,400 persons. The Forest Lipan division (Chishį́į́hį́į́, Tcici, Tcicihi – "People of the Forest"): after 1760 the name Pelones was never used by the Spanish for any Texas Apache group. The Pelones had fled the Comanche south and southwest, but never mixed up with the Plains Lipan division, retaining their distinct identity, so that Morris Opler was told by his Lipan informants in 1935 that their tribal name was "People of the Forest".

Their kin, west and southwest of them, sometimes allies and sometimes foes, the Mescalero, called them after their location and living conditions:

• Tú'édìnéõde or Tuetinini ("The People of No Water", "No Water People"), called by the Lipan Twid Ndé, Tú’é'diné Ndé ("Tough People of the Desert", "No Water People"), "Western Lipan", because they lived most of the time in deserts, steppes and Mountains.
• Túntsaõde or Tuintsunde ("The People of Big Water", "The Big Water People"), called by the Lipan Kónitsàà, Kónitsàà-hîî ("Big Water People", "Great Water People"), "Eastern Lipan", because they lived in the river valleys of the southern Texan Plains against the Gulf of Mexico.

References

Recognition from other federally recognized Apache tribes.

I've edited the Wiki page to include the fact that the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas has been recognized by recognized Apache groups at the Apache Alliance Summit and has shown support for the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas in gaining federal recognition. since people need clarification. Let me know if I need to revise my edits.Madigoosh (talk) 03:54, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Facebook and a self-published blog are not reliable sources for such claims. You will need to find independent reliable sources which state this as fact. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of all details about a subject and due weight is giving according to the sources cited and how reliable they may be per policy. --ARoseWolf 19:17, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I added a post from San Carlos chairman Terry Rambler about the official Apache Alliance Summit. If you think that isn't reliable, as it is from the chairman of San Carlos, then either go talk to the Apache Alliance, Terry Rambler, or show me evidence disproving my claims. Madigoosh (talk) 13:58, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

It is a facebook post and a self-published blog. By Wikipedia policy on reliable sources those are deemed unreliable. It isn't a matter of what I think is reliable or not. Who makes the statement is of no particular value to me but where that statement is made is of value. --ARoseWolf 14:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

This new citation I added is not facebook or the blog, I removed those two and added entirely different ones, If you checked. The two I added is from the official chairman page of San Carlos and a wmicentral article about the Apache Alliance Summits. Hopefully those are more trustworthy? Madigoosh (talk) 14:24, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Instagram is not an ideal source generally but I think in this case is acceptable for stating the subject organization attended the summit. It is verified they attended by the second cited source (White Mountain Independent). --ARoseWolf 14:35, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification, I appreciate it. Madigoosh (talk) 14:53, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:INSTAGRAM states about social media posts as sources:

"As a reliable source: Nota bene Sometimes. The official page of a subject may be used as a self-published, primary source, but only if it can be authenticated as belonging to the subject. (See Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources.)"

The linked Instagram belongs to Terry Rambler, chairman San Carlos Apache Tribe, so it's a personal account not an official account of the Apache Alliance (they don't have one) or even the San Carlos Apache Tribe. Then "Lipan Apache" does not necessarily refer to the "Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas".

News articles about the Apache Alliance Summit clearly list the nine Apache member tribes of the organization, all of whom are federally recognized. From the White Mountain Independent newspaper (2021): "The Apache Alliance is made up of nine tribes, the White Mountain Apache Tribe, San Carlos Apache Tribe, Yavapai-Apache Nation, Ft. Sill Apache Tribe, Jicarilla Apache Tribe, Mescalero Apache Tribe, Apache Tribe of Oklahoma, Tonto Apache Tribe and Fort McDowell Yavapai Nation." "Lipan Apaches" are mentioned as having attended, but which group of Lipan Apache is not specified. In 2020, the Fort Sill Apache wrote that "The Apache Alliance is comprised of nine Apache tribes from the states of Arizona, New Mexico and Oklahoma. The other tribes are the San Carlos Apache Tribe, Yavapai-Apache Nation, Ft. Sill Apache Tribe, Jicarilla Apache Tribe, Mescalero Apache Tribe, Apache Tribe of Oklahoma, Tonto Apache Tribe and Fort McDowell Yavapai Nation."

Indianz.com reported that the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas attended the 2014 summit (but their site is temporarily down). Cougar Vigil (Jicarilla Apache) wrote on his personal blog in 2014, "A tenth seal may be added with the addition of the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas in 2014" but that clearly did not happen as found in the 2014 and 2021 news articles about the Apache Alliance Summit. These articles are clear in relaying that the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas is not a member tribe of this organization, whether their members attend the meetings or not. Yuchitown (talk) 17:50, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

Yuchitown, I think it should be changed to state that the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas attended the summit but we can not say they are members per policy. And then I question whether them attending the summit is WP:DUE. --ARoseWolf 17:59, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Madigoosh, I meant to tag you. Unless you can provide further evidence I'm afraid Yuchitown is correct. We have no verification the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas is a member of the Apache Alliance. --ARoseWolf 18:02, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

@ARoseWolf, I changed it to reflect exactly what was in the cited news source, "Lipan Apache people have attended Apache Alliance Summits" since the article doesn't mention the "Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas". But yes, probably WP:UNDUE. Yuchitown (talk) 18:09, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

Understood, I think because we can not specify which group or groups attended it is undue content. It adds nothing to the article and so I removed it. I'm not against re-adding if the specific group or groups of Lipan Apache can be determined. --ARoseWolf 18:19, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I can add into about the nonprofit to the Apache article. Yuchitown (talk) 18:44, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

Read through this, and it's all valid. There is no official source allowed on wiki where it states any specific Lipan tribe are members, so in this case, they just attend those meetings. Thank you for the clarification. Madigoosh (talk) 00:41, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Madigoosh, You are edit warring in content that you can not provide a source for. It is not the original Lipan Apache tribe this article is about that attends meetings, only one or more of the groups claiming to descend from the original people. Claims that are not proven by reliable sources. I am removing once again. You do not have consensus to re-add. I suggest you WP:Drop the stick. --ARoseWolf 12:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

No idea what you're talking about. I put what the conclusion was under this discussion, that Lipan Apache PEOPLE attend those meetings, not any specific tribe or band. Madigoosh (talk) 23:53, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

That is WP:UNDUE and also WP:OR as explained.

Let me break it down like this. If I found a source that stated Cherokee people attended a meeting or summit I couldn't very well associate that with Cherokee people and add that to the article. It would be undue. I would need a source stating which Cherokee people and add it to that specific article. Being federally recognized, state recognized or self-identified makes no difference. --ARoseWolf 13:12, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

This page is dedicated to all Lipan Apache people, the article states "Lipan Apaches have also attended the summit meetings." If it can't be added here because of issues with specification of bands, then it should instead be added to the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas because they were the specific ones attending (Vice-chairman Soto and other members of council.) Madigoosh (talk) 13:31, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Nothing we are saying is getting through, so it feels pointless to repeat. There are plenty of actual news items that specifically mention the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas. Why not add that published, secondary information about the LATT to that article? Yuchitown (talk) 16:16, 14 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

Lipan Apache people

This article about the Lipan Apache people. The Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas has mentioned and linked multiple times. Put information about them on their page. And please for the love of all that is holy, stop trying to use Wikipedia to promote this organization. See WP:NOTADVOCACY. Yuchitown (talk) 15:20, 29 February 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown