Talk:Christian Church

Requested move 27 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. There is a clear consensus that the undiscussed move should be reverted and the old title restored, at least for the time being and pending further discussion about the article's scope and title. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 (talk) 09:55, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

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Christian Church (Protestant ecclesiology) → Christian Church – This article should be moved back to its original title "Christian Church" as it was only controversially moved out of process to the new title on 22 June 2021‎ without discussion or consensus. Some editors, including myself, have expressed that the new title improperly narrows the scope of this article to only one branch of Christianity. Anupam^Talk 03:33, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support: This article was moved to its present title out of process, without any discussion, on 22 June 2021. Its scope is much broader than just Protestantism, and includes Catholicism and Orthodoxy too, which are the two other major branches of Christianity. There are several sources, such as this one that demonstrate that the term "Christian Church" is used by Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox Christians. A discussion above had at least a couple editors supporting the fact that the scope of this article includes all of Christianity. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 03:37, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support for now, this brings the title back in line with the content of the entire article. Note that I am neutral wrt underlying discussions about whether the article should be this broad or even whether the article should exist at all. We also have Ecclesiology for that matter. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:14, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support: since the lead has been changed and is properly sourced, the page move I made is not needed anymore. Veverve (talk) 11:31, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
• Comment: after checking the references given, none of them seem precise enough. The first reference, the OCA article, is about Early Christianity, and the second reference is about the Protestant concept; the problem is that none of those define clearly the expression "Christian Church" as "the body of true Christians." I think whatever is the result of the page move, we must have a thorought discussion about the content of this article, and even if its very existence is suitable since there seems to be no consensus on the meaning of the article's title in reliable sources. Veverve (talk) 11:46, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support speedy This is an absurd narrowing of a very general article—blindlynx (talk) 17:27, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support The title is a general term that means different things to different religious traditions. Ltwin (talk) 20:58, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support Seems to clearly realign the title with the actual article. Maybe it is a good idea to have specific articles going into depth about different views and then summarizing them here with a link to the main article, but that is a separate conversation. SamStrongTalks (talk) 21:07, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
• Procedural support I think some move from Christian Church is probably necessary (that title should be a DAB), but the move was out-of-process and the current title is worse. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 23:27, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

@力: If you think it does, I proposed it in the conversation just below, so feel free to join it, as me and Anupam are not able to find people to talk about the future of this page. Veverve (talk) 23:35, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discussion about the subject of this article

@Anupam: I think it is not too soon for a discussion to take place concerning the subject of this page. The way I see it, this page should either be deleted, or turned into a disambiguation page. I think so, because the subject of this page is too imprecise, and that all subjects are covered.

1. If the article is about the Protestant concept that the Church is bigger than a visible, hierarchical church, or that the Church of Christ is an entity which incarnates iself in muliple churches with different dogmas and hierarchies, and that therefore there is numerous divided legitimate continuations of the Church(es) that Jesus Christ would have founded, we already have Invisible church, One true church, and Branch theory
2. If it is a designation of Christianity, we already have Christianity.
3. If it is about a group of people meeting for religious purpose, we already have Church (congregation).
4. If it is about the building, we already have Church (building).
5. If it is about the groups of people identifying themselves as part of one doctrine, current, or hierarchy, or the three of those, we aleady have Christian denomination.
6. If it is about denominations or hierarchical structures claiming to be the only legitimate continuation of the Church that Jesus Christ would have founded, we already have One true church.

@Elizium23: could you give some feedback on my proposition? Veverve (talk) 23:39, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

User:Veverve, I do not feel that this article is imprecise at all; it explains how different denominations understand the "Christian Church", a term which is also used by academics, especially in reference to early Christianity. The Eastern Orthodox Church understands the Christian Church to be itself while many Protestant Churches, such as the Reformed Church, might see the Christian Church as consisting of those truly saved, for example. Given the fact that the above move discussion sees no issues with the article as it was under its previous title (it appears that it will soon be moved back there as well as your vote was the only one opposed to it), the article as it stood was fine. Besides, this article has the status of being a vital article so turning this into a dab page or deleting it are not options at all. User:Ltwin seemed to echo similar sentiments above. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 03:22, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

@Anupam: For now, you have not provided a source stating clearly that "Christian church" is "what different Christian denominations conceive of as being the body of true Christians". There is dozens of pan-denominational theological dictionaries, so if this definition could be found, I think it would be easy to find.

Moreover, I think that all visions of what Christianity is, is already covered in the 6 points I enumerated. Veverve (talk) 10:50, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

The lede of an article actually doesn't need a source per WP:LEDE, but summarizes the points of an article. The first sentence reflects a reality that represents the different views on what the Christian Church is. As mentioned before, the Orthodox Church sees itself as the true visible Christian Church while the Reformed Churches would hold that the Christian Church has both a visible and invisible nature. Kind regards, Anupam^Talk 17:06, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Are you really asking me to have a look a each source to check if "Christian Church" is effectively used this way? And even if it does, then as I said we already have One true church and Invisible church. As for the Reformed tradition, we already have Protestant ecclesiology#Visible and invisible church (which is currently totally unsourced). As for now, until a third party cares enough to intervene in this discussion, I will stop participating in this discussion which is only stagnating. Veverve (talk) 20:34, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

• I know very little about this topic area, and am not entirely sure the intended scope of the article. I believe it refers to "a philosophical construct of all Christian believers", and not "specific organizations claiming apostolic succession", but am not even sure of that. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 23:40, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

@力: The subject of the article is both, because it encompasses numerous meanings of the expression "Christian Church"; i.e. the subject is any group or institution being considered as legitimate Christians by any group or institution including themselves. The fact the title of the article is so vague - and is also, as I claim, unjustified - does not help understand the topic. Veverve (talk) 23:52, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

I've asked for help at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard as I am unable to even propose an alternative title. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 00:00, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Etymology

I am removing the following sentence from the Etymology section:

Some grammarians and scholars say that the word has uncertain roots and may derive from the Anglo-Saxon "kirke" from Latin "circus" and the Greek "kuklos" for "circle", which shape is the form in which many religious groups met and gathered.

Here is the source text for reference:

The derivation of the word is generally said to be from the Greek kuriakon (kuriakon) “belonging to the Lord.” But the derivation has been too hastily assumed. It is probably connected with kirk, the Latin circus, circulus, the Greek kuklos (kuklos) because the congregations were gathered in circles.

The reasons that I'm removing it include:

1. The source is from 1884 and, given the fact that linguistics has advanced a lot since then, is probably out of date.
2. The source text makes it sound like it's just William Smith's opinion. I mean he basically admits the kyriakon derivation, but then he dismisses it without really giving a reason other than the fact that "the congregations were gathered in circles".
3. The source text reads "kirk", not "kirke". And it's not clear that this is specifically an Anglo-Saxon word. It's also not clear that it's related to Latin circus or Greek cyclos. (I think "kirk" itself just comes from Greek kyriakon.)
4. The source text says that "the congregations were gathered in circles", but it's not clear that this means they were shaped like circles. I mean it kind of does sound like he's saying that, but it's not clear. Historically though, congregations did not gather together in the shape of a circle. If he's saying that they all stood around in one big circle, this just sounds like nonsense. The earliest Christians gathered in house churches and then basilicas. The congregation gathered in a large open "nave" area and worshipped facing "liturgical east", the same as they do today (except without pews or seating).

If anyone thinks it's salvageable and wants to add it back in then go ahead. I'm not trying to vandalize the page or start an edit war or anything. But this to me just looks like misinformation. 2601:49:8400:26B:1921:3F36:9E7D:CACA (talk) 18:38, 30 April 2024 (UTC)