Talk:Aiden McGeady

National team source

The only source given in this article (his autobiography) does not mention his ever playing for any Scottish national team, please provide a source for this extra information as this relates to quite a controversial subject! - Terence Gunning, 29 March, 2006, 9:45pm, AEST

Terence, you could try here

It mentions "He represented Scotland at a secondary school international tournament in Paris against Brazil, Argentina and England before France 98 while still at primary school"

this one mentions "The facts, as far as can be established, are that Aiden was almost 12 when he was picked by the SSFA selectors in 1998 to play in an under-13 World Cup tournament in Paris. Scotland lost to England in the final, but McGeady was a stand-out and, in the words of one SSFA official, was earmarked as one for the future."

this one says much the same.

--TheMadTim 13:51, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

National Team

I edited the sentence in the first line of the article regarding his choice to represent Ireland. We should state that he represents Ireland at the international level. If the issue of his choosing Ireland is necessary then a seperate section should be created. Lochdale 23:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Trying to find a source that notes he declared for Ireland due to his closeness with family in Donegal. Lochdale 03:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

There is a long interview, I think by the BBC, with is usually on youtube. Journalistic interviews are citable sources. See Wikipedia:Citation templates for the relevant template. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

POV

In the opening paragraph: "He is blessed with blistering pace and quick feet." Someone want to take a stab at re-writing that a little more objectively? VincentValentine29 (talk) 04:06, 28 February 2008

This article completely overates him and practically kisses his ass. VincentValentine29 (talk) 09:56, 7 September 2008

RfC: McGeady's Nationality

How should the issue of McGeady's nationality and the team he chooses to play international football be phrased? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

NOTE

See also the sister RfC at talk:James McCarthy#RfC: McCarthy's Nationality.

Opinion by Chris Cunningham

My opinion, as given in the previous section, is that due to the disputed nature of nationality (especially as it pertains to sports representation) that we should not use broad terms such as "Irish" or "Scottish-born" to refer to the McGeady's nationality. Instead, we should simply explain, in a couple of sentences, exactly what the facts are: that McGeady was born in Scotland, but has chosen to play for the Republic of Ireland. This revision contains wording that seems appropriate.

The same compromise was reached (after considerable debate) on Giuseppe Rossi, who is in an almost identical situation.

Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Opinion by Vintagekits

My opinion, as given in the previous section, is that due to the fact that nationality with regards football pertains to what country they play for - where they were born is not a defining factor. Both McCarthy and McGeady hold Irish passports and choose to play for Ireland - therefore making them Irish - simple as that no matter what bigots think. The Irish diaspora is very strong and it is hardly uncommon to for 2nd, 3rd or 4th generation Irish people to still consider themselves primarily Irish - given the fact that both of these players actually hold Irish passports and play for Ireland just rubber stamps that.

The same situation arises with Richard Gough, who is in an almost identical situation.

I actually think that the current wording which states he is an "Irish international footballer" with a link to the article on the Irish team is a fair compromise.

--Vintagekits (talk) 10:41, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

As stated on the other RfC, Gough has (a) a direct parental Scottish birthright and (b) self-identifies as Scottish. There is no indication (through reliable sources) that your assertion that "2nd, 3rd or 4th generation Irish people ... still consider themselves primarily Irish" applies to McGeady, who is currently still a British citizen with a British passport in addition to his (purported) Irish nationality. The revision I linked to in my argument also contains a link to the ROI national team, without wikilinking using the phrase "Irish international" which could easily be construed by readers as being two separate statements. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:58, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

"McGeady, who is currently still a British citizen with a British passport in addition to his (purported) Irish nationality." - The article states he self identifies as Irish - and he holds an Irish passport making him what? Irish!--Vintagekits (talk) 11:01, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I see no indication that you wish the word "British" to be included in the lede, even though McGeady is at least as "British" as he is "Irish" (having been born a British subject to British parents and lived in the United Kingdom for his whole life). I would rather include neither, and word the section to be exact, rather than having this discussion. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:17, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Does he hold a British or Scottish (*cough*laugh*cough*) passport? Why would he need to? He has an Irish wan! If you want to remove that term "American", "English", "Irish", "French" from the lead paragraph of everyone sports person who has ever represented "their country" then I think you are running into a brick wall. despite the protestations of Scottish bigots, they choose to represent their country - over their country of birth - their country is Ireland - they are Irish - they should be described as such. Just have a look at all the Surinam born players for Holland like Mark de Vries, Aron Winter, Regi Blinker, Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink all referred to as "Dutch" because they played for Holland - the same goes for pretty much every other player.--Vintagekits (talk) 11:25, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

The presence of counterexamples does not indicate a settled precedent. I could likewise point to (and have already pointed to) examples where it was settled the other way. I have certainly already argued to remove the term "Scottish" from the ledes of those self-identifying Englishmen as Kris Commons who happen to have Scottish caps. As for Suriname, considering that it only became independent of the Netherlands in 1975 then it seems rather likely that the players listed were actually born Dutch subjects anyway (indeed, Winters's infobox says as such already). Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:00, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

The article clearly states that McGeady self identifies as Irish (not that he needs to once he pulled on the green shirt!) - therefore Irish - it doesnt get more simple.--Vintagekits (talk) 12:03, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Notice how the BBC cleverly describes McGeady...GiantSnowman 13:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Opinion by GiantSnowman

I believe the info should read something like this:

Aiden McGeady is a professional footballer who plays for Celtic. Although born in Scotland, McGeady is third generation Irish [1] and as such he is eligible to represent the Irish football team at international level, which he has done on 26 occasions since making his international debut in 2004.

Or something similar. GiantSnowman 11:55, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm fine with that wording. Note that the source in question specifically notes that McGeady has not cited self-identification as Irish as being his reason for choosing to play for ROI. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:04, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

That said, there's a video in the article itself where his father says the exact opposite. Which doesn't help. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:11, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Of course you are fine with that disgustingly POV and weasel phrasing from your canvassing croney from the FOOTY Project. Why purposefully try and denegrate his choice to play for his country with such a weaselish phrasing? He holds an Irish passport, he plays for Ireland, he self identifies as Irish. simples.--Vintagekits (talk) 12:06, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Just how is my phrasing - which I viewed as neutral and fair - full of POV and weasel words? You need to calm down, seriously, and stop thinking that there's a big conspiracy against you and/or Irish football. GiantSnowman 12:09, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Well when a guy that holds an Irish passport, chooses to play for Ireland over the country of his birth and self identifies as Irish - cant be described as Irish then can you blame me?--Vintagekits (talk) 12:11, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, but surely you can that see the problems in describing an Irish-international player who was born and raised in Scotland to Scottish parents, for those not familiar with the intricacies of football nationality laws. GiantSnowman 12:19, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Or indeed, for those attempting to write articles using a neutral point of view, which does not present material solely from the perspective of the subject itself. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:24, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Wait a minute - isnt it hypocritical that you are fine with Richard Gough being described as "Scottish" because he self identifies as such but not McGeady as "Irish" even though he self identifies as such?--Vintagekits (talk) 12:29, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Gough's nationality is not disputed. You'd maybe have more of a point with Andy Goram (though that's another debate), but I've never seen any reliable source question Gough's nationality, much as they don't question Terry Butcher's for having been born in Singapore. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:35, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Ask yourself why?--Vintagekits (talk) 22:09, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think he should be referred to as either Scottish or Irish (given it's just provoking idiotic arguments from people who clearly have some sort of agenda on this subject) and we should just list the basic facts.

1. He was born and raised in Scotland, by Scottish parents.

2. He has Irish ancestry and therefore qualifies to play for Ireland's football team.

Seriously, what is the objection to that? How can simply listing the facts become "POV"? Blankfrackis (talk) 19:06, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I've changed the description to something close to Giant Snowman's version. The only dissenting party here (Vintagekits) seems to be a banned account and there isn't anyone else arguing against changing it. Blankfrackis (talk) 02:13, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Opinion by Deacon of Pndapetzim

The guy is Scottish but plays for the Republic of Ireland. Many Scotsmen have. Ray Houghton, Tommy Coyne, Owen Coyle, all played for Ireland because at the time they didn't have much chance of playing for Scotland. He was born and raised in Scotland to parents born and raised in Scotland. Of his four grandparents, one was born in Ireland. That makes him Irish not Scottish? Ehm ... Aiden McGeady would probably have had more chance to play for Scotland than Ireland, as these days Ireland are normally better, but choose Ireland for a variety of other reasons, probably most of which he has not disclosed. At any rate, he [also?] self-identifies as Scottish, as he has frequently made clear in interviews. A Scottish footballer who plays football for the Republic of Ireland is pretty NPOV in this case, as is a phrase which states he is both Scottish and Irish. Sporting teams don't define nationality, birth and heritage do. He is both, so define him as both. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:21, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Do you have some suggested wording? GiantSnowman 12:24, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

He has choosen - purposefully to not be defined as one of those. That was made clear in the DVD called "Celtic - The Irish Connection" - in which his father outlined that he always considered himself Irish and never had any intention of playing for Scotland - cant really blame the guy to be honest.--Vintagekits (talk) 12:27, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, as Vintagekits pointed out, the article contains a video where his father states that "he made his decision on the basis of a very rich heritage of Irish culture... passed down from father to son... and he's... ensconced in the Irish way of life", and Peter Byrne states that he "had always regarded himself as Irish". So that should be taken into consideration, at least, although again I'm wary about presenting articles from the subject's point of view. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:31, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd personally take that with a pinch of salt. I mean, after you've made your decision, you can really reveal any real reasoning without undermining your credibility ... that is unless the real reasoning makes you an undivided patriot Irishman. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:35, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

(@snowman, e/c) Well, what do parallel articles say? E.g. Vinnie Jones (as much Welshness in him as Aiden has Irishness), Ray Houghton (Glaswegian footballer who played for Ireland), Eduardo da Silva (Brazilian footballer nationalised as Croation, N/A?), and so on. In my experience, a good way to achieve neutrality is ban any mention of his nationality outside the cats (which no-one ever seems to care about)... as in Nicolaus Copernicus.Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:32, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

If the boy wants to self identify as Irish I say let him. I don't understand why he would, but that's his choice. All the newspapers I read now refer to him as Irish. Why don't we say he is a Scottish born Irish footballer who qualified to play for Ireland through an Irish grandparent, but has never resided in Ireland. Sounds silly? It does, but it happens to be truth. Jack forbes (talk) 21:27, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Scottish born Irish footballer seems about right. McGeady is Scottish, but has an Irish passport. So does Mel Gibson. Now I am happy for good players to play for Ireland, but we do not want to get into a situation like there is in Northern Ireland where people born and raised on the island of Ireland (Loyalists) deny they are Irish. McGeady is a born and bred Scot whether he has Irish blood or not. He is also an Irish international footballer. But that doesn't eradicate his Scottishness.

"Scottish born Irish footballer" implies that he's an Irish person, who plays football, but was born in Scotland. That's clearly not actually the case. By no standard, other than playing for the Irish football team, is he any more Irish than he is Scottish/British. He was born and brought up in Scotland, to Scottish parents: playing for a football team is essentially irrelevant when you're talking about his actual nationality. We're also going off into a strange tangent about him holding an Irish passport - nobody has produced any evidence that he holds an Irish passport instead of a British one and even if he did it wouldn't change his citizenship (many British people do not hold British passports).

Personally, I don't really care if he plays for Scotland or Ireland, all I care about here is that it's a misleading description. It's based on a flawed piece of logic which seems to place the national football team you play for as more important in determining your nationality than the country you were born and raised in or the nationality of your parents. Blankfrackis (talk) 18:59, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

The Final say on this is Aiden mcgeady qualifies for Ireland through his Irish Grandparents and has a Irish Passport has played for Rep of Ireland from Under 15s to full international making 42 caps.He considers himself Irish and supported Rep of Ireland in The Touraments they played.Aiden McGeady is a Irish citizen through his Donegal born grandparents. In a interview Aiden called himself a Irish Catholic even though he was born in scotland he is very proud of his Irish connections and chose to be Irish and play for Rep of Ireland at every level and we have to respect his opinion. McGeady’s decision to play for the Republic of Ireland made him a target for a heightened level of abuse from the stands. “There are a lot of horrible places in Scotland for that type of thing: Tynecastle, Ibrox obviously is always going to be bad with the Celtic-Rangers rivalry, Motherwell, Falkirk. Some fans there hate everything Celtic stand for and everything I stand for as an Irish Catholic playing for Celtic.” Source http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/celtic/exclusive-aiden-mcgeady-explains-how-leaving-glasgow-is-the-most-eloquent-answer-to-his-detractors-1.1048663 --86.44.69.166 (talk) 23:26, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

He is Irish, by some measures. He is Scottish, by some measures. He is British, by some measures. To describe him uniquely as one of these is simplistic, and prone to undue emphasis by those who would like to bolster their own national pride. What cannot be dealt with in a couple of words should not be in the lead sentence. He is a footballer who plays for Spartak and for RoI: let's simply and uncontroversially state that. Kevin McE (talk) 14:02, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

He is an Irish footballer, and he is notable for being a footballer and nothing else. So he is an Irish footballer. Adam4267 (talk) 14:28, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

No, he is a footballer who is notable for being a footballer and nothing else. So he is a footballer. Half-truths, such as a partial description of his nationality, are not helpful. Kevin McE (talk) 14:37, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Aiden Mcgeady Rep of Ireland's Best Player

The Euro 2012 Tournament starts For Rep OF Ireland vs Croatia and I Predict Aiden Mcgeady will be the best Irish player out there and take the world stage by storm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.69.166 (talk) 22:49, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM Kevin McE (talk) 14:37, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

This Page should be Locked vandalism

I had a link Aiden McGeady calling himself a Irish Catholic and someone did vandalism on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86 D (talk • contribs) 14:14, 3 June 2012 (UTC) −

How ****ing dare you suggest that it was vandalism? It was an edit returning the article to the state that it was in before you added disputed information, and was fully explained in the editnote. You then restored your reverted edit with a clear disregard for WP:BRD. Despite your arrogantly phrased claim above signed as an IP, you do not have the final say on anything. Kevin McE (talk) 14:37, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:BITE. Adam4267 (talk) 14:46, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

I like you but your not allowed curse and you can't be warring — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86 D (talk • contribs) 14:54, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps the new editor would like to explain his description of my edit. If someone has the arrogance to declare their opinion as the final word, they should expect to be challenged, newcomer or not. And the addition of Irish here, where it is controversial, is diametrically opposed to his only other edit to date, the removal of the same adjective, from an article in which it is entirely uncontroversial. I did not curse, and editwarring is what you have done by ignoring the WP:BRD cycle. Kevin McE (talk) 14:59, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

You should be apologising to him rather than demanding an explanation. That outburst was unnacceptable. Adam4267 (talk) 15:01, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

I will not apologise to anyone who has made an unfounded allegation against me. It is the person making such an allegation who must either substantiate it, or withdraw it and apologise. Kevin McE (talk) 15:05, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

If someone has sources and writes them down,In wikepidia laws you should leave them there and can't be deleted ,Aiden Mcgeady has stated he is an Irish Catholic and will hopefully represent his country for many years,when he retires from being an Irish International footballer ,you can change or dispute his Nationality and he is a Irish Citizen from irish grandparents.If you try to delete sources ,you could blocked by wikepidia ,nice to talk to you.--86 D (talk) 15:42, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

No. You have failed to understand that Wikipedia is a collaborative project, in which the appropriateness of proposed content is subject to discussion. Edit warring against consensus is likely to lead to a ban: deleting material that has been determined to be inappropriate, no matter how thoroughly referenced, will not. In the above RfC, only one editor was arguing for the position that you are taking, and he has been banned for the last 16 months. Kevin McE (talk) 16:10, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Aiden McGeady is a Irish Footballer and the other wikipedia users agree ,you should apoligize to me and stop vandalizing,Aiden McGeady has stated he is a Irish Catholic and He wants to to called an Irish Footballer.--86 D (talk) 17:59, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

No, the other Wikipedia users as a body do not agree. You have not answered the questions that I have put to you, have not addressed the issue of the consensus above. Deleting questions and issues from your talk page does not render them invalid, but calls into question your willingness to be an editor who understands the concept of consensus. His religion is entirely irrelevant to this discussion: his nationality is a complex issue that cannot be dealt with in one word, regardless of anything that he may have said. Identify one occasion on which I have edited in a way that is vandalism as defined at WP:Vandal and I will withdraw from this thread entirely: otherwise retract that accusation and apologise. Kevin McE (talk) 18:55, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Your making yourself look stupid not once has Aiden called himself scottish but he has called himself Irish.Check Rep of Ireland current Squad and every player is called Irish footballer regardless of what country they were born in and Aiden is a citizen of Ireland ,go try to change Kevin Foley natonailty he was born in Ireland and is called Irish because of his descent like McGeady.Aiden Mcgedy has made 42 caps for Ireland and will probably make over 100 caps by the end of his Irish career and when people refer to him they call him Irish footballer,Aiden Mcgeady even in a interview with bill o'herlihy he say he was Proud To represent Ireland and is very proud to be an Irish footballer playing for Spartak Moscow in Russia.Stop talking Nonsense and move on he was born in scotland but prefers to be called Irish ,his parents were Irish immigrants who settled in Scotland.McGeady holds an Irish passport and choose to play for Ireland - therefore making him Irish.Plus you can't delete sources,which you did once,if you did it again i would be glad because your reputation as a Wikepidia User would be tarnished and you will eventually will be blocked.Aiden Mcgeady hates racism and he has suffered sectarian abuse in the past for being an Irish player playing for Scottish Club Celtic. --86 D (talk) 20:02, 3 June 2012 (UTC) By The way User:Adam4267 has a great reputation and awards all over his page and is a great help to me and others.Kevin McE is breaking every rule on a talk page and You are here to purely disrupt.If you have a problem write it on the talk page and people will probably ignore it or listen to it.Stop harassing me and others and don't write on my talk page anymore friend. Stop disrupting and learn the guidelines of Wikipedia.--86 D (talk) 20:19, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

I'll ask here the question that you deleted, as I anticipated, on your talk page. Do you believe that Aidan McGeady's nationality issues can be adequately described in one word?

And I'll ask again that you either uphold your accusation against me, or that you retract it and apologise. Kevin McE (talk) 21:03, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Ireland task force is working on improving this article and supporting its Fellow Irish footballer Aiden Mcgeady.--86 D (talk) 21:30, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Certain Ip Address Vandalising Page

Aiden Mcgeady is called an Irish foootballer and calls himself that ,maybe this page should locked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86 D (talk • contribs) 16:32, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Odd statement, the only IP address used on this article in more than 32 months is that used by the complainant before he registered. Kevin McE (talk) 17:15, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

"Irish-Scot"

This is a confusing description to non Irish/Scottish people. Can I suggest that it is changed to of Scottish and Irish descent or similar? The page gives a good clear description of how McGeady qualifies to play for Republic of Ireland through his Grandparentage without refering to the player as Irish/Scot. Mrspy (talk) 16:51, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I think the best description of him is as a "Republic of Ireland (or Irish) International footballer". The lead, as it is, is very amateur and not written in a way conforming to the standards of Wikipedia at all. This page has become a place for editors to fight over nationality wording when it isn't what McGeady is known for. He is a footballer and as a footballer is unquestionably Irish. Adam4267 (talk) 21:30, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

I am in agreement that really he should be described as Irish as this is the nationality he has chosen to represent. I would say he isn't unquestionably Irish as he was born in Scotland to Scottish parents, however in footballing terms he is Irish but it should be noted in the article that he was born in Scotland (which I think it is). Mrspy (talk) 16:49, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

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