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Thanks for your action. At some point you may want to email me with some feedback on why you struck your support and how this might be better dealt with in the future. However, I'll be taking the rest of the day off any such serious matters. --Fæ (talk) 11:22, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
This was rather nasty and almost impossible to follow. It does not seem right and I am disappointed it happen here. Best wishes. --Jarekt (talk) 15:00, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for your thoughts, the tag-teaming was ridiculous and I understand the worst that has been seen on Wikimedia Commons for any such request. --Fæ (talk) 17:50, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
I do not frequent as many RFA as I should be, but I have seen my share and I agree that this one takes the prize. --Jarekt (talk) 18:24, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Header change
In the interest of being more on topic and less distracted by other problems, can I (or you, or someone else) change the title from "Delicious carbuncle tag team" of the section on AN to something like "Wikipedia Review canvassing"? That would be more appropriate as I see DC if involved would be very minor. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:21, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
You have added a category to the image after I left the message above, so I assume you have seen it. I don't think anyone would object to having your comment on the talk page, but as an image repository, I don't think that adding to the description a reference to a book where an image is used (but not as the source) is appropriate. I know you are likely to take this as some kind of provocation, but I have attempted to discuss the situation with you here and gotten no response. I will be removing your comment if you aren't willing to discuss it. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:10, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Carbuncle, Can you point me toward some policy, guideline, or discussion which would prohibit adding additional information about sources where image was used. I personally also add info about publications using well known images also hosted on Commons. Often I add additional descriptions using other sources, so such additions serve role of the references. --Jarekt (talk) 19:10, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
No, I can't, but neither am I the one performing the action here. The fact that you also do it does not make it something that is welcome here. I think I am asking a reasonable question. Do you have an answer to my question, or are you merely providing moral support for Fæ? That's fine if you are, but I'm looking for something more concrete than the opinions of those who watch Fæ's talk page. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:34, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Hi Fae, in relation to the image linked above, I think having the book is a good idea in order to give our reusers an extra line of defence in trusting our assessment of the PD status of our files. The file as we have it on Commons and the file from the other website are obviously the same image, but are different in appearance. Having a published book which references and discusses the image would make me, if I were to reuse it, more comfortable in known that the PD status is correct. This type of information obviously would belong on the file page, not the talk page, in order for it to be visible. Hope this helps. russavia (talk) 18:54, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Why do we need a single URL source? It is PD-Old based on the original book (Sawaqub al-Manaquib) this is published in. A URL source establishing age is useful but not mandatory as it could very well be a personal scan from the original book. -- とある白い猫ちぃ？ 21:06, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Maps and photoshopping
Hi
This has been a pretty long term thing, I asked for Seiko to remove the offending text, they got all defensive and attacked me, I left it with them to sort out User_talk:SeikoEn#Map_of_Kievan_Rus.27. Seiko did not correct the problems, Dbachmann tried to get them cropped, that got heated it seems User_talk:SeikoEn#Civil_reply, but assuming that Dbachmann did crop them and create them under new names, it would seem futile to repeat the croppping. I enquired again some six months later when a map re-appeared with the copyvio in it User_talk:SeikoEn#Maps and still no action was taken.
I am just trying to get them deleted once and for all so that the copyvio no longer re-appears in Ukraine and Kievan Rus' articles. It has gone on for long enough now, but yes, cropping them (if not already done by Dbachmann) would remove one issue - though it seems there is another issue with the base map not being attributed properly. Chaosdruid (talk) 12:15, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback. Considering some of the names I am seeing dropping into this discussion I have decided to not offer any more help or opinions. There comes a point when my personal capacity to enjoy contributing to Wikimedia projects in the future ought to have a priority over engaging with people who seem incapable of treating others with respect. To be honest, that such people even exist scares me. --Fæ (talk) 12:22, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Could you please explain precisely why this move is against policy and which others are also not compliant? I believe your revert of this move was unnecessary. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 16:39, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
(EC) Your moves were unnecessary. That was corrected now by me. Please read COM:RENAME and tell me under which point you think those two moves are okay. Similar: File:Underwater bondage.jpg → File:Bathtub bondage.jpg. Renaming should be used sparsely! Underwater is not wrong. Renaming should not be done just because you had used better (in your opinion) names than the uploader has used. --Saibo (Δ) 16:44, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
In the single example you have given, "underwater" is wrong and misleading. The woman is partially in water lying in a bathtub, not underwater which gives a different context. These three images you have reverted are subject to multiple complaints and criticism, principally due to misleading names. --Fæ (talk) 16:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
What is misleading with "underwater"? She is underwater. If you continue to use the move tool that way (to undermine COM:NOTCENSORED and to push POLA to Commons) you will loose it. Thanks for understanding. --Saibo (Δ) 16:55, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Sure, as you have immediately resorted to declaring sensible file names (not deletion!) as "censorship" rather than being able to discuss the changes, I'll raise the matter at the Village Pump for discussion instead. Thanks for your interest. --Fæ (talk) 16:57, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
I did not say it was "censorship". Read again. You made moves against policy which I have reverted (consuming my time). --Saibo (Δ) 17:03, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
You have given me an immediate warning rather than attempting discussion. You have accused me of pushing POLA. You have accused me of "undermining" NOTCENSORED. This is not discussion. I am sorry you feel your time is being wasted, perhaps you should concentrate on something else more useful. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 17:07, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I gave you a warning. I did not think that you need a "pre-warning" (you are a very experienced user and I hope you had read COM:RENAME in the past). Regarding "discussion": there is nothing to discuss - the policy is clear. Also you can see the comments at the VP section. And: you can discuss now - no need to do that while your wrong moves are prevailing. --Saibo (Δ) 17:20, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Please do not request speedies in those cases: [2][3]. Redirects are meant to alleviate the effects of a move. I also note that you removed "Cucumber" form the title. Why (so I do not have to think about what could be your intention...)? It is a cucumber which is one of the two main protagonists of the image, isn't it? --Saibo (Δ) 17:40, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
The word in the original language used in the information supplied was used. The cucumber was incidental, not a "main protagonist" as there is only one subject, a nude woman with a sex-slave collar on. In fact if there is a second "protagonist" it would be the sofa she is lying on which also fills the image but fails to be mentioned in the filename.
Are you dropping your accusations that I am attempting to "undermine" NOTCENSORED or "pushing" POLA? Thanks --Fæ (talk) 17:48, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
The cucumber is no "protagonist"? Why had the uploader then even put it in the file name? May it be that you are annoyed instead that this image violates POLA (in your presumed (by me) view) since it is correctly found by a text search for "cucumber"? Similar to the dog with a cucumber (do you want to rename it to "Dog looking around"?).
No, I am "dropping" nothing. You do not give better explanations, so I have stick to my own presumptions based on your actions, sorry. --Saibo (Δ) 18:33, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Your comments here seem very confrontational to me. I may be over-sensitive, so I'm going to take a break for a day or two before considering any further replies intended to make you happy. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 18:38, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Did some bluenoses complain again because of unexpected results when searching for toothbrushes? Or what else is the ulterior motive behind those unrequested moves? --Vydra (talk) 18:40, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
What is a "bluenose", are you being racially offensive? You appear to be accusing me of ulterior motives, perhaps a little good faith would be a better way to start asking me questions on my talk page. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 18:44, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
en:Bluenose (disambiguation). And yes, I do not believe the strange reason given when moving an image ("Reflect original language description and remove random photo number.") was the real reason for doing so. Not with all those other, similar moves. --Vydra (talk) 18:52, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
As you only seem interested in making unsubstantiated allegations rather than discussing anything, I suggest you take the matter elsewhere, perhaps you have a blog to write such things on? To clarify, I am not Canadian, even so, racial slurs against me or anyone else remain unwelcome, particularly on my talk page. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 19:18, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
I suggest to fully read the disambig page - there may be other fitting meanings. I won't point out one myself. --Saibo (Δ) 19:36, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
As Vydra chose to only vaguely point to a disambiguation page, which did nothing to refute racist implications, I'm not sure there is anything useful to add here. Whatever the intention, as an opening statement on my talk page it is hard for anyone to interpret this as a purely good faith comment. --Fæ (talk) 21:45, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Moved back per Vydra's request. The speedy by Fæ on the original file page ("Not a well used or useful redirect") got deleted in that course. Note that the file indeed was even inwiki linked... --Saibo (Δ) 18:52, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
I should just mention that while I disagree with Fae's moves of these pages, I think they were done in good faith with the intent of making the search more usable; I just don't think this is the right way. No "warning" is needed here. Wnt (talk) 06:29, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Hi Fæ,
I don't understand why would you like to delete this file. On Flickr, this image is under free content ! Thanks for your answer.--Nevertime (talk) 06:31, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
The license on Flickr is the photographer giving permission for reuse of the photograph. Unfortunately in this case, there is no evidence that I can see that the photographer had permission from the artist (or the artist's estate) to take photographs of the painting for free commercial reuse. Both the photograph and any creative work being photographed need to be released (with some exceptional circumstances, such as freedom of panorama, which does not seem to apply here). Cheers --Fæ (talk) 06:36, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
I just noticed you labeled "Dunky Fivérek" as a Turkish photographer. Are you sure this is the case. The name does not sound Turkish at all. He may be Hungarian based on my google search. -- とある白い猫ちぃ？ 22:46, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
You may be correct, I was only going by how http://www.flickr.com/photos/23912178@N08/6231642253 was written in Turkish. I would be happy for someone who knows a bit more about this sort of thing to puzzle it out and correct it. The back of the photograph (displayed as a Flickr comment) with what appears to be a company design might help pin it down. --Fæ (talk) 23:08, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
I am unable to read any Turkish on any of the pages you linked. I see on the page that "This photo was invited and added to the Early Photography in Austria-Hungary group." which is consistent with my assessment. It is Austria-Hungarian not Turkish. Austria-Hungary dissolved before some of the dates on the page so multi-category may be preferred. -- とある白い猫ちぃ？ 22:17, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
Just a quick heads up that I have suggested an amendment to the editing restriction on FtO, and have made a note of it here. I am advising you as you have provided an opinion in that thread, and may wish to take this into account if any concerns you may have raised are addressed with it. russavia (talk) 13:48, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue. Please see Commons:But it's my own work! for a guide on how to address these issues.
Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!
If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue. Please see Commons:But it's my own work! for a guide on how to address these issues.
Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!
I'll take a look, I could do this in a clunky way or I might think about it a bit longer and do it in a less clunky way; but after Monmouth and after I've had a chance to get back to candidate questions. Cheers --Fæ (talk) 23:07, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Less clunky would be fine, I'm a bit busy between now and early May, but mid May I might have time to do a serious amount of these Geograph images. WereSpielChequers (talk) 23:17, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Hello, I see, it will take a while, but the progress is evident. I just wanted to let you know that -before I asked for help of a bot- I changed some (aprox. 200) of my pictures in this way. Since I don't know what is the exact logic you follow to identify my arthicles, I thought that this information could be useful for you. All the best and thanks for all, Poco a poco (talk) 17:19, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
Yes, those will be skipped for the moment. You can add a category to the template so the image gets automatically categorized. I'd leave it until the script is finished (at the rate it's going it'll take several more days) and then maybe fix it by hand. It's a good thing as we'll want to add the credit template to every file in the user category, and it makes it easier not to add the credit template twice. --Fæ (talk) 17:23, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
I just realized that the amount of categorised images here is by far lower than what I would expect (currently about 1600 articles and the script is working the articles begining with "P"). By the "P" I had expected about 3 times more articles. I just did some spot checks and found out that articles like this or this are not categorized. Thanks and regards, Poco a poco (talk) 21:13, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
Annoyingly, I slipped up on the script search, it is only looking at "author=" and missing cases of "Author=" which seems to be the source of the problem as the code is case sensitive but the information template is not. Rather than cancelling the current process, I have kicked off a second which limits itself to "Author=". This may take the same number of days as the other run, so I'd prefer to let these finish before considering any others that might be missed. Cheers --Fæ (talk) 07:42, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
I've had to put a pause on this Python script for the moment. It was gradually causing my main machine to reduce to crawling speed and as my laptop has some intermittent memory problems I've not got much alternative to park these. I'll look again at running an alternative from where these have stopped, though due to other commitments probably not until next week and I'll probably try to launch them from my laptop which I can leave devoted to finishing the job for several days. The first script got as far as "Yaneka" and the second as far as "Dresden"; probably about half way through the job I guess. Each script has to process 5 million pages, which means a rather large local cache which is probably the issue for funking up my old Mac. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 10:28, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Okay, it is re-running as a single process. I'm hoping to leave it alone to finish the job. As I don't want to take a massive image dump, there is no easy way of re-setting it to start half way through. --Fæ (talk) 00:19, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
I think that the bot is done. I made aprox. 20 spot checks and didn't find any uncategorized files (although I expected more). I think that the only once remaining task is the inclusion of the template in the categorized images. Thanks and regards, Poco a poco (talk) 14:08, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I'll standardize the few with your custom credit template back to standard, and then add the template to all these images under the licensing section as suggested. If some get missed, could be possible due to variations in layout, leave me a note and I'll look into it. --Fæ (talk) 15:00, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi Fæ, it looks good! Just one last question, do you know a way to include the template in the License section when uploading files with the Upload Wizard (without having to edit every uploaded file later on)? Poco a poco (talk) 12:38, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. As for upload wizard, not really. You can keep a bit of preprepared text with your credit template and a standard CC template handy to paste in to the Wizard on the right box for adding your own license. I use iMacros to edit the page and paste in my own attribution after an upload is complete, I don't know of a smart way of doing this by customizing your commons setup. --Fæ (talk) 16:17, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi Fæ, would you be able to delete this copyvio at the English Wikipedia ? Fair use rationale seems completely inappropriate. --Claritas (talk) 10:56, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
I have put it up on a speedy and given the uploader a final warning as there seems to be an obvious pattern of NFCC violations and prior warnings. --Fæ (talk) 11:13, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Your statements regarding me and undisclosed "threats" made to you or your husband ([4] & [5]) may be interpreted as suggesting that I am somehow involved or complicit in those threats. I am not. I suggest that you either strike those statements or make a further statement which unambiguously clarifies your position. I am giving you the opportunity to withdraw your comments before I act on this. Please do so as soon as possible. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:40, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Fæ, since you have edited this page since my request (to separate Rd232's complaint from my own), I think it is reasonable to assume that you have read my request. Since you have neither acted on it nor replied, I think it is reasonable to assume that you have chosen to ignore it. In effect, you have chosen to let libellous remarks stand by failing to correct the negative interpretation which was of concern to me. It is not too late to reconsider. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:22, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
On a similar theme, I asked you to strike the remark you made in the RFC saying that I was a Commons trusted user so involved in off-wiki attack websites. This phrasing repeats your theme that I am responsible for everything that happens on every website I post on (as well as mischaracterising a general discussion forum as an "attack website"), and I've had enough of it. Please stop this. Rd232 (talk) 12:10, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Rd232, I am unclear what you are objecting to in your partial quote. You do not contest that you contribute to Wikipediocracy and have done so over an extended period; that would count as "involved" no matter the nature of your contributions. That same website has included extended discussions searching for material to attack, out and canvass against Wikimedians, including calling me a member of the Gestapo, a "fae got" and making allegations about my sex life; it does not make it unreasonable to consider that this fact makes it an "attack website". Unless you have an example where I am making false allegations about you, such as claims that you have attacked me, there seems little for me to strike. Your inference seems the issue rather than my statement. If you do not want to be seen as a member of Wikipediocracy, perhaps you should consider not being a regular contributor there and instead consider raising issues you might have related to Wikimedia on-wiki. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 12:29, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
You are a native speaker of English - don't pretend you don't see the problem with your statement I quoted above. Furthermore characterising a general discussion forum as an "attack website" is dangerously close to libelling anyone who posts there. Wikipedia is constantly used to attack people - that doesn't make it an "attack website" either. As for your final sentence: I am not a "regular contributor" and I have never raised an issue on another site that should have been raised here. Not once. Not ever. I have posted there to respond to others, and in one case to point out a violation of a CC license of a Commons image. Rd232 (talk) 14:54, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Threats
If anyone has information about the threats made against me earlier this year, you should contact the Metropolitan Police Service[6] quoting crime reference 3004667/12. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 23:56, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
I remember your previous account also alleged real life threats too. What became of the police investigation I assume you requested (given the danger you suggested you and your family were facing)? The police in your jurisdiction should have quite a file by now, given your obvious concerns.Bali ultimate (talk) 04:06, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Fae, I'm reasonably certain that nobody from that/those forums has any idea who threatened you... in fact, we're not at all clear about whether this was an actual threat or just a "wiki-threat". Please keep your sense of humor (or is it humour?) about you while viewing the conjectures... nobody there means you harm, no matter how much some of them dislike you (and you keep giving them reasons to dislike you, I hope you'll admit!). --SB_Johnnytalk22:13, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
That was a mistake. I was trying to pick up duplicated links within an English description field. This was not fully automatic but I obviously misread what was going on there. --Fæ (talk) 18:09, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Ah, in which case, the pywikipedia module "cosmetic_changes.py", dated 2012-04-25 needs revising. It's a standard fix at the moment. --Fæ (talk) 18:17, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
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Warning: Wikimedia Commons takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing.
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Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!
Hi Fæ, thanks and congratulations to you and your colleagues at Wikimedia UK for achieving this. Best wishes, AFBorchert (talk)
Much appreciated. I am really looking forward to the project running over the rest of the year, and volunteers (internationally) having a lot of fun with their collections. :-D --Fæ (talk) 08:54, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue. Please see Commons:But it's my own work! for a guide on how to address these issues.
Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!
If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue. Please see Commons:But it's my own work! for a guide on how to address these issues.
Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!
Thanks for pointing it out. I don't have SVN access I'm afraid, but this does look like a simple change. In the meantime, I have not been using cosmetic_changes.py for fear that the results seem controversial, a pity as it is conceptually a good way of organically implementing minor fixes in a single change when doing other more significant work. If we really like the idea, I think we might need to establish a clearer consensus for its use rather than having to block future bots when they are simply being applied in good faith.
I would be tempted to get SVN access and sort this out, but unhappily I'm in the middle of a indef ban proposal against me by Arbcom. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 12:35, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
{{autotranslate|1=Category:Images_by_Dr_Neil_Clifton|2=Commons:Categories for discussion/2012/09/Category:Images_by_Dr_Neil_Clifton|base=Cdw}}<!-- --> Andy Dingley (talk) 12:25, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Just a note that your bot seems to be adding this cat (and others) to images, but not fully creating the cats. I've done this one, but I leave it with you. Cheers. Rodhullandemu (talk) 16:41, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for that. I was creating each category as the bot went along populating it, and was cautious about creating the category before anything was in it, as this may tempt others to delete it as empty before the bot had a chance to get around to it. Perhaps the answer is to create the category a day or so in advance, as I was in a conference all day today (and will be tomorrow), I'm not sure how else to prepare for this.
Below is a list of categories that will be created eventually, unless some have no matching uploads on Commons (which is possible). They will be created in this order (from the top down, you should see the pattern though a few well populated categories already exist). I'll create in advance in this way, though if anyone else wants to step in and create categories using the others as a template, that's all good stuff too, though I think we should avoid creating anything more than a day or two in advance (i.e. around 2 or 3 categories at a time). In practice I'm not more than a couple of hours late creating the category as I keep an eye on this stuff (this weekend being AFK most of the day is unusual). :-)
In the long term, having these categories created means I'll be able to let the bot periodically re-fresh without worrying about creating new categories, or at least probably no more than one or two new Geograph contributors. Cheers --Fæ (talk) 21:22, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue. Please see Commons:But it's my own work! for a guide on how to address these issues.
Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!
Yes it is awful (you did refresh the page, right?)... Though I think it can be made near perfect with a bit more digital attention, as the glitch itself is machine made and therefore probably completely reversible. I'm not sure we have a good policy on this area, but my intuition is that if an image has a prospect of being in scope based on a later digital fix, then we should preserve it, and make it available for eager volunteers to fix. I think glitches like this should go on an open backlog. This reminds me of some of my earliest digital photos in the Highlands where, unknown to me, my camera was packing up. The images from a couple of days were badly streaked with colour distortions, but these were cherished memories so I have hung on to them and added them to my archive. It turns out, that when desaturated, they are perfect and maybe, one day, I'll sit and work out how to set up a macro to digitally reverse the colour oddities from the batch. Not for one moment do I regret preserving them. :-) --Fæ (talk) 10:03, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Please stop carrying out this particular routine, it is returning incorrect information in a substantial number of cases. I have reviewed your 20 most recent edits of this nature, against OS mapping:
Of the 20: 12 are correctly placed, 8 are incorrect. 1 has not been given a valid localisation, 1 is in the wrong county, 1 in the wrong district. The other 5 all identify towns/villages in the wrong parish. The ones that pick out Tewkesbury might be associating that with Tewkesbury District, however if you are using address info, its identifying these with the town of Tewkesbury, not the district. A 40% error rate isn't acceptable.
Incidentally, this one is interesting - the parish boundary is the road in the image, and the building is on the Elkstone side of the line. That's one where MapIt fails due to the difference in subject/camera location - which suggests two wrongs are cancelling each other out!
As I have said previously, nearest address is a problematic routine and cannot be relied upon to give correct location info - simply because postal geography doesn't match administrative geography. Postal geography is defunct (RM no longer uses post towns to sort mail) and has oddities like post towns being in a different county to the delivery point. Administrative geography is typically a lot older too - many parishes date to before the Norman Conquest.--Nilfanion (talk) 12:55, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
To be clear this is not an automatic routine. What I have been doing is using the OSM address to select an image and an existing Commons regional child category which I look at by hand. I was not aware of a Tewkesbury district vs. Tewkesbury town problem, so that's my understanding that is lacking for this region.
The manual process I have been following is to accept what appear obvious changes to me and then investigate others that I am less sure about by looking at the image and its location on Google Maps. As a result some of these are not marked as being from an OSM recommendation, for example see here as I did not accept any default suggestions. I think the best way forward is to do a few more carefully by hand (I have to pay more attention to the definition of the existing sub-category) and then come back to you for a review to see how accurate they are. Would you be up for that? One conclusion might be that this is an impossible job for someone who is not personally familiar with a specific region, or is something to be done by my bot publishing a report on-wiki with suggested sub-categorizations which can be done by volunteers and we probably have to expect this to only realistically improve thousands of images rather than hundreds of thousands. --Fæ (talk) 13:24, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
OK, this isn't an automated review - fair enough - mistakes are human :) If you were purely using data from MapIt, then 19 of the 20 would be right (the exception is Elkstone one and an unavoidable subject/camera error).
This certainly doesn't require local knowledge to do correctly. My fully manual routine is to click back to Geograph and use the OS map widget there to explore area and determine the parish (which is marked on map), though I'm always looking for shortcuts which don't degrade accuracy. I'm fine with helping you there.
One thing that I will work on is to sort out the categories. Category:Devon has every CP in Category:Civil parishes in Devon, and every CP is in its respective district category (eg Category:West Devon). All categories for specific location are also in the correct parish categories. This certainly isn't true in other areas, like Gloucestershire, where only 20 civil parishes are in Category:Civil parishes in Gloucestershire. Some CPs don't even have categories, or even an article on WP. If all the counties have a structure similar to Devon's then this will ease the localisation process for all.--Nilfanion (talk) 13:35, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
I'll have a think/tinker with MapIt fields as an alternative to OSM address recommendations. As uk-postcodes seems back up, I might fall back on that for xml calls giving OS data rather than the overly nested JSON data from mysociety (which makes my brain ache). This might defer for a while as my unpaid but intense WCA/WMUK Chapter commitments are ramping up just at the moment.
Could you link me to something about the OS widget you mention. I have vaguely been thinking about how cool it would be to have some sort of widget showing location or a pop-up mini-map on Commons without navigating between windows or tabs, this might be interesting and not too hard to create as a Greasemonkey script or similar that even relatively novice users could take advantage of. --Fæ (talk) 14:02, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
Concept test using Shetland
I had a fiddle with MapIt but the wards etc. seem fairly useless, giving regions like "North Shetland" and the Civil Parishes being absent and no equivalent. Going back to Open Street Map gives some interesting matches (for Shetland at least) of towns/villages/hamlets (ignoring the rest of the address components). A run through the first 100 images in Category:Geograph images in the Shetland Islands looking for village or hamlet name matching a category name in Category:Towns and villages in Shetland suggested the following matches (stopping at the first match of town then village then hamlet) —
Faebot proposed category improvements out of 100 selected Geograph images using OSM location data
Suggestions for the first 100 [16 recommendations]
Does this look like a reasonable? There are 6,000+ images in the Geograph category for Shetland (now I have finished the bot run) and the existing top region category Shetland has a ridiculous 3,500+ images in it, so this would make a good test case for either a fully automated sub-categorization sort or a partial one that generates a report with recommendations for volunteers to have a crack at. I could fairly easily let the bot run through all 6,000+ images and produce a table of suggestions without committing anything if that would be a useful test of the idea. --Fæ (talk) 13:03, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
I set the first 1,000 up to tick over in the background, I think it took around an hour for Faebot to check them all out:
(Table updated and moved below)
Interestingly, based on a quick sample, many of the discrepencies of location based on coordinates versus pre-existing location categories seem to be the object vs. camera location problem. Many could probably be addressed by adding a {{Object location dec}} template in addition to the {{Location dec}} template. Perhaps this is something we should have an issue template of some sort for, which would then generate a backlog of images requiring object location geocoordinates? --Fæ (talk) 19:35, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
My chief concern here is philosophical: Should location categories purely show images of the subject, or of things close to their subject too? IMO, the first is what we should aim for - nearby places are outside the cat's scope. This means any nearest-village routine is flawed, as the fact its close to X doesn't implyits of X.
In England and Wales, the parishes provide a good level of precision. The Old Man of Coniston isn't in the village of Coniston, but is within Coniston CP. If the scope of Category:Coniston, Cumbria is the CP, it contains both the village and the mountain. A CP has a boundary that can be used to automatically determine if an image is in or out. The village is not the same as the parish, but the two overlap (WP articles are focussed on the settlements, but facts like population are derived from CP-level info). In the long run, it would be useful to split these topics into two cats, but has to be a lower priority.
When there are no parishes (mostly Scotland) the obvious scope of the village cat is the settlement plus any nearby features intimately associated with the settlement (eg the beach outside a coastal village), but not the general countryside in the vicinity. Without a formal boundary for a script to compare against, working out if an image is of the village or not is subjective and needs a human eye.
A nearest-village routine needs to be used with caution. A recommendation reported somewhere is much more appropriate than a bot-added cat, despite reduced throughput, as it ensures human review. However, if you can provide a distance measure this opens the door to automation: "If <200m from village, then its of village. If >2km from village, then its not. If from 200m to 2km, then not sure and ask for human support.". This becomes apparent when you consider truly remote features: Carn Eige is in Glen Affric, but has nothing to do with the village of Affric (and the nearest postcode is somewhere else again).
As for the Shetlands specifically, the first step in localising is to specify which island. Its perfectly possible for an image to be of one island, and the nearest settlement is on another. In principle, island detection can be automated - if you can find a source. The limitation there is that the Mainland is a large area so this doesn't help much for the majority of Shetland imagery. Several of the above files have location cats but, correctly, this isn't associated with a village (eg for File:Broch of Culswick, Shetland - geograph.org.uk - 2715.jpg "add Category:Skeld" is a bad idea).--Nilfanion (talk) 00:51, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
There seem to be two separate issues, both probably addressable. Here are two actions that I'll take a while to ponder how to address:
For regions with Civil Parishes defined there may be far less of an issue with accepting automatically recommended Parish. This has been automated in the past, and my scripts could be fully automated to do similar for Geograph images.
As you say above, I think this would be just in parts of England or Wales. They are in the OS data (type=CPC) and therefore ought to be available by JSON query to MapIt; see this example.
For other regions, such as Scotland, distance from the image coordinates to a recommended region centrum should be possible to calculate,‡ or point to a visual map of the two points and a route between them for a volunteer to check by hand. It may be possible to query Google Maps to return travel distance rather than geometric distance, though there may be benefits in not tying ourselves to Google application availability or accuracy. With a routine to return distance, it may well be reasonable to automatically add recommended categories with very close coordinates and then leave others as a flagged recommendation for volunteers to check. By very close, we might mean within half a kilometre, but this can be decided with a few example runs to see what works in practice.
I think we are a lot closer to finding a solution to automatically classify a lot of images (hundreds of thousands I would hope). Based on attempting to get a consensus previously, I remain unsure of the best place to do this to get engagement. However, if we can agree something for a serious trial run, I would add it as a project to User:Faebot/Geograph and at least highlight it for comment on the Village pump rather than risking complaints after having changed so many image pages. Cheers --Fæ (talk) 07:58, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree, and that's basically the way I'm inclined to go as well.
The majority of England is covered by CPs, and all of Wales is covered by the equivalent (communities).
Unparished land in England is usually, but not always, associated with major towns/cities - in which case the district is the location. For instance, Southsea is a CP in Portsmouth. If its in Southsea its of Southsea. If its somewhere else in Portsmouth, we can still say its of Portsmouth. Electoral wards may be useful to subdivide the urban areas further, but I'm dubious, as wards are somewhat variable, arbitrary and only have a loose correlation to the distinct areas of a city - no part of Portsmouth is called "Charles Dickens". Likewise in Scotland, for the urban council areas, that's the location (Glasgow, Dundee etc). Again, this is using administrative boundary data.
When administrative geography isn't good enough (eg no parishses), then proximity testing is obvious, and should be geometric distance, not travel time: It doesn't make sense to evaluate road travel time from off-road locations, and there's no way to tell if the image is of a road or not. I suspect that town, village, and hamlet should have distance parameters set seperately - 500m out from the centrum of a town is probably still in the town, 500m out from a hamlet is likely to be well outside. If the distance is too high, it should not attempt to match to a location, or even inform humans of it (as they might accept when its clearly invalid). Proximity detection handles case where the image is of a village with no category, it doesn't get falsely placed in the nearest village with a cat.
A critical preparatory task is to ensure we have all relevant cats, and a robust mapping from parish names to category names. This can also identify those districts where proximity-detection makes sense and will be used (in Highland, not in Glasgow). As there are c10,000 parishes this will take some time. Will populating something like User:Nilfanion/Parishmap help there?--Nilfanion (talk) 11:05, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Shetland test update with distances in meters against recommendations
I have added proximity tests, here is the same test as run before with the distance between the coordinates given for the photograph to the centrum of the suggested location. Some interesting examples and glitches apparent. It would be worth pointing out any examples of inappropriate locations being suggested with distances less than 500m or 200m as these could be the basis of an automated run. Automatic location might vary depending on whether the place is a hamlet, village or town in the data - for example being within 1km of a town might still be a reasonable category. A further improvement would be to add warnings on the talk pages for images with doubtful locations (such as being more than 5km away from the subject), if, that is, we can trust the OSM data providing this information :-)
By the way, where there are more than one places returned for a place name, the script assesses all of them and picks the nearest. For example at least one "hamlet" (a couple of hundred of meters away) had the same name as the nearby "village" (several kilometres away) ...
By the way, I have realized that Category:Islands of Shetland and its children & grandchildren has not been taken into account in the way my script sniffs out existing directories. There might be a rather better job done if it is included. --Fæ (talk) 16:22, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Could you re-sort the list by distance rather than alphabetic, as that should make it easier to check and determine at what point things start to get unreliable? Multiple settlements with the same name is another problem of course. One possibility is to get the cats properly geocoded, and if the OSM location isn't close to the cat's, reject it as that indicates the two are different settlements of same name.--Nilfanion (talk) 22:17, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
I'll look into sorting it, the script is a bit messy so I might need to rethink what data I'm pulling together as when processing a large number of images it might be an idea to shove the lot in a file so the queue of proposed changes can be processed separately, particularly if it would be useful to separate an automated run of good matches from pitching the remaining results back to a human in some form. I like the idea of adding geocoordinates to the location categories, now I have a routine to check distances between images and possible locations, it suddenly becomes rather useful. --Fæ (talk) 22:31, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Done I have sorted the list into a sortable table format. I have not changed my script, however it would not be a massive headache to format the log into a wiki table rather than indented lines.
By the way, please avoid annotating the table itself. I am trying an update including the above islands category to see if this make much of a difference to the result; if it works then I'll probably overwrite the table again. --Fæ (talk) 12:37, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Done The bot script now gives this type of wiki table report automatically, so it would be a doddle for me to create similar tables for other interesting large parent categories. The table has been updated with children of categories checked in this order (hand-picked based on whether they contain useful child categories):
This resulted in an additional 51 results, pushing the percentage of the first 1,000 images found with category recommendations to a third. Even if we take a highly conservative approach using distance, this probably means we could add justifiable pre-existing location categories to around 20% to 25% of images in a similar set of random images with coordinates where a decent set of properly named location sub-categories exist.
There are other improvements on my mind, though let's consider these on the back burner as better scripts can always be re-run on the same source category...
(a) At the moment the script searches for places in OSM near the coordinates in the order (town, village, hamlet) this could be extended to other types, at the moment I have no definitive list but can see (administrative, island) as further place types.
(b) The script runs in this place type hierarchy and looks no further, it would be more robust to check *all* possible type matches by distance rather than defaulting to the hierarchy; this way a town 4,000m away would not take precedence over a village 500m away just because it was either found first or has been set as "more important" if one best category is to be chosen.
(c) If the script finds a town and a village, it may be right to pick the closest by distance, however it may be perfectly valid to add both (1 of town, village or hamlet) and island categories if they exist, or some other combination such as Civil Parish and county. Getting the decision hierarchy right, might take more examination of how Open Street Street map has established type definitions by country in the UK.
(d) Categorization would go hand in hand with improving the categories themselves. It may be useful to consider an automated analysis of towns, villages, parishes, cities, islands for a given ceremonial county and start making new category recommendations for all those missing. With an intelligent manual re-mapping of categories, including systematically adding category co-ordinates to avoid any doubt about multiple similar names, any automated process will be far more successful. It could well be that setting best practice rules on Commons for naming of UK regions might be another useful long term outcome.
Let's try and break this down into manageable tasks and not run before we can crawl? This is a much more complex area of categorisation than adding date or county-level cats. There are many more things that can cause problems: Inaccurate geocoding on Geograph, subject/camera location errors, ambiguous place names, inadequacies in our category structure. The list goes on and on. The end result of (d) will massively improve our category structure, but its not there yet. There's 300 images that need to be reviewed (I will do this at User:Nilfanion/Shetlands) for a start.--Nilfanion (talk) 17:49, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Don't worry, I'm not going to claim the war will be over by Christmas :-) I'm thinking this is all good stuff for a hearty, and hopefully non-contentious, background project lasting throughout 2013 and my ideas above are just vague ideas that I don't want to lose track of, particularly thinking about better use of OSM fields and tweaking better recommendations from my script. --Fæ (talk) 18:10, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
OK I've done review - overall accuracy is 27% and my conclusions are here. Some of the points there relate to (a)-(d) above:
(b) 4km is just too far (except for large towns and cities maybe), a much lower radius should reduce conflicts. Nearest hamlet/village/town is probably the best.
(c) In most cases, a bot should only ever add 1 cat, typically a settlement. Reason is - the settlement should be categorised to the island its on. That is when Civil Parish doesn't take priority (which it should - known boundaries are better than inference).
(d) Getting the categories correctly nesting would be good. In parished areas it will be county->district->CP->settlement/other location. In the Shetlands it will be Shetlands->island->settlement/other location. If we can work out what the Shetland parishes are, they can be inserted into that too.
It goes without saying that this will need a new full bot-req, with posting over at Commons talk:Batch uploading/Geograph. You should skim through that page, as most of the posts there relate to localisation errors, any attempt to work in this area is likely to be contentious unless its done right. I'm going to work through the existing Shetlands cats, adding geocodes and proper cat linking. It doesn't make much sense to attempt another test run before that is done.--Nilfanion (talk) 22:15, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. As I'll have to include a category check for coords, I have gone ahead and generated an indented descendant table of categories of Shetland at User:Faebot/SandboxS, it does not include duplicated category names, goes down to the level of great-great-great-grandchildren and it highlights which categories have coordinates, so you may find it useful as a checklist. Don't edit that table though as it will overwrite itself every 3 hours while there are changes to include. Cheers --Fæ (talk) 16:11, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
Next test stage with geocoded categories
I've added geocoding to all appropriate categories in the Shetlands tree. In the absence of areas with defined borders, the most realistic objective is to sort out the urban images. As images of towns and village are a large chunk of the whole, that can only be a good thing. For the really rural stuff, topographic features should be used as the basis of the cats and not settlements - images of Ronas Hill shouldn't be placed in a settlement. Getting those cats right is a hard job for a human, never mind a bot.--Nilfanion (talk) 02:28, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
I have kicked off an update to User:Faebot/SandboxS to give me a useable list to pull into an update of the script. I'll consider how to redo the test run with some rules along the following lines for matching category names to place and historic types in Open Street Map data (refer to [7]):
The hierarchy of types (for Shetland only for the moment) takes this precedence depending on associated distance rules:
(best match) city < town < village < hamlet < suburb < neighbourhood < isolated_dwelling
Not used/matched: country, county
Others to consider: palaeontological_site, outcrop; key tags from tourism such as museum, viewpoint, attraction — if a better geographically close match than the city - village place matches.
Distance rules:
island: 3000m 30,000m
city - town: 2000m
village: 1000m
suburb - neighbourhood: 500m
isolated_dwelling: 250m
historic features: 500m
(others): 500m
Commons hierarchy of categories
Yet to work this out, but I'll try to compensate for preferring a topographic feature category over a detailed place category when both are matched.
As a consequence an image might have more than one proposed category (to replace the top category, in this case of Shetland), as an example the same image of some archaeological site might have a recommended island name, village and name of the ruins. If ina similar scenario there was a town name rather than a village name, then the island category would be dropped. --Fæ (talk) 12:14, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
500m will be too high for point features - like individual buildings. That's the limit for broad areas like villages, so is clearly much too broad for individual buildings. That said, setting the distance too high is good for testing, as we can see where it breaks down. IMO sort to topographic-feature really has to be done by human, as that is much more subjective than "how close is it?". Using 3km for island testing isn't ideal - it can verify the right island/category match has occurred, but as the majority of Shetland Mainland is further than 3km from its centre and the islands can be much smaller than that, I'm not sure that will be useful outside a 30 sq km area in the middle of the larger islands.--Nilfanion (talk) 12:44, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
I'll up the ante on island to 30km. In theory it should not get mismatches as this should never happen in the OSM data and the nearest geographic island name would be taken if islands are that close together. It seems a good compromise that no image would have both Category:Shetland Mainland and Category:Lerwick on it at the same time following the hierarchy rules. We'll see where the test takes us (may not be programmed and run until next week at this rate anyway). As suggested we need a nice way for Faebot to both make the obvious non-controversial categorizations and then come back to humans with a backlog of good suggestions [possibly by adding templates of some sort to the images, similar to the Geograph automated backlogs]. Ideally we need a way that does not entail a lot of work for each region in terms of preparation, whilst the preparation of adding coordinates to categories would be a good stage to apply, I would hope that each time the script is run it can follow generic rules rather than region specific ones (though it may be reasonable for it to vary in configuration by country) - otherwise we get rather too dependent on the same volunteers being available to see it through to the end ;-) Fæ (talk) 13:35, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
Geocoding cats should be easy enough - two ways: First use WP. Follow interwikis if available, if not check if there is a enwp article with the same. If there's geocoding, extract it. Secondly, check the images in the cat. If the geocoded files are in one tight group, can extract location from that. If multiple distinct groups are present, flag for a human to check as its likely multiple locations have been mixed up. With regards to island data: Why did the first run match Uyea for all those images on Unst, and can that be avoided this time?--Nilfanion (talk) 22:07, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
A couple points with regards to the current run for the South West:
Devon, and adjacent areas, has been very thoroughly sorted. In particular, the Geograph files in Category:Bere Ferrers and Category:Calstock should be a good test of the localisation - the boundary between the two is the Devon/Cornwall boundary and is exceptionally convoluted. GeographBot had problems there, so it should show if your localisation method is sound.
Great, thanks, these will be a good test of the data I am relying on. The counties are coming from OS data so I'm hoping that is very accurate. Once we have sufficient images, it will be very interesting to examine the boundaries, this will be as simple as looking at the images as points on the map and we can do that easily for an entire category at once. I have now added {{GeoGroupTemplate}} to both Devon and Cornwall, something I was planning to do for all the place categories once they were populated.
If we get some patterns of glitches, then I will be happy to cover any dodgy boundary with a geo-bounding box and create some sample tables of results with OSM, OS data and Google Maps to see which is more accurate. Hopefully it will not come down to this... --Fæ (talk) 01:14, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
You mention breaking Cornwall down at some point, and mention the constituencies. I'd suggest it would be much better to break down to use the administrative geography of districts and civil parishes. These are more stable than constituencies (which can change every few years) and better reflect how the files should be categorised in practice.--Nilfanion (talk) 23:50, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
I agree, these are only vague thoughts. From WSC's early comments, there may be good reasons to leave the Geograph bit of categorization at the high level. It may well be that London is the only region to break down to the 3rd administrative level, but I'm open to ideas and would welcome a credible consensus process before launching into this sort of detailed work that may take several months to finish off. --Fæ (talk) 01:14, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
I don't think there is much point splitting the hidden Geograph cats too far. However, if you can prove the routine works (presumably using OS data), then it will be good to add the best possible real locality cats (not hidden Geograph ones) to the great mass of unlocalised files. For most of England and Wales, the practical limit is parish-level (4th admin level). If you can get that reliably, then its only the subject/camera location issue that's left. A bounding box covering the two parishes I mentioned would be a good test: Its a known trouble-spot, the files in the categories are all correctly placed, and will be easy to identify subject/camera errors due to the nature of the border.--Nilfanion (talk) 11:01, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
All good things to try; any of these knotty problems might be an interesting challenge, though anything less than several hundred might be as easy to do by hand, particularly if being actively checked on an automatically generated map. I would hope we can attract those that enjoy using cat-a-lot or other tools to have a go at comparing the hidden Geograph by place categories with other categories for anomalies. I agree about finding a better way of automatically adding some detailed location categories and once we are really confident about accuracy of the data and reliability of the scripts I'm using, I think we can run some pretty cool experiments along these lines. :-) --Fæ (talk) 11:19, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
A couple misunderstandings on your summary page:
Regarding the Isles of Scilly and this edit: The Isles of Scilly are part of the ceremonial county of Cornwall, but are not part of the administrative county. Therefore its correct to say the Isles of Scilly is the lvl-2 admin area, and a query of their administrative geography should say UK -> England -> Isles of Scilly with no mention of Cornwall. However, both en.wp and ourselves should work in terms of the ceremonial counties - so the Isles of Scilly should be categorised as part of Cornwall.
The same applies to for all the unitary authorities on the mainland - Derby is not part of Derbyshire administratively. However it is ceremonially, and that is why following the ceremonial county boundaries is clearly the right approach - to say Derby is not in Derbyshire is downright confusing and not helpful to anyone.
I'll correct my comments on that page later on. I did find the definitions of councils hard to follow in the South West and the MapIt definitions seem mostly political [refer to <http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.politics.democracy.mysociety.general/2946>, which itself recommends Wikipedia!]. Having grown up in Cornwall I understand a bit of it, but the context will be harder for me to follow as we start categorizing Scotland or Wales. See my reply below. --Fæ (talk) 12:28, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
Regarding User:Faebot/Geograph#3a: Dumfries and Galloway: Wigtownshire, Kirkcudbrightshire and Dumfriesshire are not counties now, but were historically. As they are historical areas, and not current ones, they should not be used as primary location categories. The primary localisation should be done on the current admin area Dumfries and Galloway - which isn't a "county" either (or a "council"), but is a "council area" - as Scotland does not have counties today. I'd strongly oppose using historical areas as the primary localisation method (as adding opposed to adding it as supplementary info). Abingdon handles that correctly, as it makes clear the distinction between current and past.--Nilfanion (talk) 11:52, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, I'm gradually tackling the issue of ceremonial counties and I certainly did not appreciate the differences at the start of the project. One source of confusion is what the categories in the source websites {Google Maps, OSM and OS data via MapIt} really mean, particularly as the areas defined appear to disagree with each other. The Isles of Scilly is an easy example as the geographic and historical boundary is clear cut, even though the political area it may be claimed to be part of has varied over the decades. If we end up with ceremonial counties as the most useful area definition then this might take a bit of mapping between what the websites can provide (such as "Borough Council" or "Unitary Authority") plus we might have a bit of a headache finding any reliable source that can provide a definitive precise and accurate boundary definition for the ceremonial county.
I don't think any of this is reason to pause the current categorization, though let me know if you think it might help to pause a specific area and get a consensus first (it would be nice to find somewhere other than the Village pump to try to get a credible consensus - that would not take months to finish :-) ... perhaps we could do with a specific policy document on what types of regional definitions are preferred for the UK, such as parish, ceremonial county, top level postcode?). For example, if I had included the Isles of Scilly under Cornwall, it would be easier to later separate it out from a 'Geograph images in Cornwall' category than do this from scratch so the categorization work is unlikely to ever be wasted. --Fæ (talk) 12:28, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
If the data is based on postal address information, I wouldn't trust it (as I explain in thread below about a different task). I think Google uses OS data as its primary data source (it certainly uses the correct OpenData attribution). I'm not sure what underlies the OSM data. MapIt is obvious - its using OS OpenData boundary sets - which I know intimately. The OS data sets use the administrative boundaries, not the ceremonial ones. So Plymouth and Torbay aren't in the administrative county of Devon. However, its easy to construct a map from the districts to ceremonial counties (just parse this list). Defining the boundary of a ceremonial county is easy and comes directly from legislation: The ceremonial county of Devon is "the administrative county of Devon plus Plymouth and Torbay". The only complication is Stockton-on-Tees, which is split ceremonially, but the boundary is obvious (the River Tees).
I agree none of this is reason to stop the current Geograph in X categorisation, the second point relates to final destination cats.--Nilfanion (talk) 13:06, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
OK, now that a major portion of the SW England run is done I've been able to identify a number of errors. Some images of West Devon (and have been correctly located in a Devon location cat), but are in Category:Geograph images in Cornwall. The following are definitely not of Cornwall:
I haven't analysed other pairings around the Devon border yet. There are a number of other images of West Devon in the Cornwall cat too, but these could be due to things like subject/camera location error, incorrect geocoding on Geograph and being categorised in cross-border categories like Category:Calstock Viaduct. These 3 possibilities do not apply to the 6 above, so they are certainly the result of an error in the algorithm. For some reason, the first two got placed in both Devon and Cornwall... I was half-expecting the 3rd one due to the topography of that area. What queries did the script run for the above - and what answers did it get from the various services?--Nilfanion (talk) 00:51, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
I would love to. My request has been pending since I first requested it on 6 August 2011, nearly 11 months ago. You can read my extensive log of bot related activities and express your own opinion (hopefully supporting the need to have a bot flag) at Commons:Bots/Requests. As I stated there a few weeks ago "Until I am advised otherwise, I can start using my main account for these types of edits using Python. It will be easier for me to keep track of issues and if someone objects to that solution I can refer to the ten months of dialogue here." Thanks --Fæ (talk) 22:11, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
To me these edits look good, but the point has been made that without the bot-flag they can cause some people trouble, so I've supported your request, but I think it would be best to shut down the bot and focus on actually getting it enacted rather than ignored. Either that or maybe try to change the bot policy to say that if a request is left open for a full year without action, it should be counted as formally accepted and any admin can give out the bot-flag! Wnt (talk) 15:45, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
P.S. It is at least possible, though more wearying for the servers, to do this without bots - just take Template:Geograph and replace the "2 is set, that's ok" comment with a biiiiig ugly switch with a table of all the names. (Or make it a separate template, so you can call it once to get the name to display on the page, and once to put it in a category... shudder...) Wnt (talk) 16:08, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Actually "some people" is one person who then dropped the objection. Thanks for supporting the bot request, I'll consider letting the bot wind down, though attempting to change bot policy, considering I have been waiting for a year for this first step to happen, seems a very remote possibility of a solution. In the meantime all changes are marked as minor, so easy to turn off from your watchlist, and very, very, few people have many of the 1.9 million Geograph photographs on their watchlists. --Fæ (talk) 19:07, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Some of that isn't so certain to me, and putting author categories on posts doesn't seem very important - not as important as unclogging the mess on the bots request page. Since you are experienced with bots, why don't you comment on some of the other requests and help get them sorted out also? Wnt (talk) 23:03, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
I have been helping with Commons:Bots/Work requests, check the archives, just been quite busy lately with some (for me personally) rather serious real life concerns; as you may be aware. As for tweaking Geograph, it remains the largest single project Commons has ever seen, and remains the largest untapped reserve of images for other projects, both seem good reasons to try to improve categorization, even if only in relatively unimportant minor ways. Some may well find that following a photographer who provides either a good quality and variety of images, or one that reflects their own personal interests (being churches or train stations or similar location based themes) would be a good way of engaging with this huge collection.
BTW, with regard to solving the user categorization challenge by making the Geograph attribution template more complex, that is not always a popular solution (I did something similar elsewhere) as it leaves a long term issue if others want to either use bots to do standard recategorization or want to use a tool such as HotCat which will not recognize the transcluded category. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 23:18, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Good point about your help ... anyway, I inserted some headings to emphasize which requests are especially backlogged [8] - if you want you could take this up at the Village Pump and try to get some eyes on it. Given the situation, I wouldn't trust to mythical rules like IAR and not-a-bureaucracy to keep away the creep brigade (you know they already mentioned it in WO some time ago), so why not tackle the problem head-on?
I agree about the switch solution being bad - some people were complaining about it on the PubMed and DOI templates at Wikipedia AFAIR ... still, it isn't subject to quite the same level of bureaucratic regulation. Wnt (talk) 23:31, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
{{Autotranslate|1=File:Voidokilia naturists.jpg|2=|3=|base=Idw}} [[User:Lexein|Lexein]] ([[User talk:Lexein|<span class="signature-talk">talk</span>]]) 05:01, 15 August 2012 (UTC) - Deletion nom withdrawn by nom. --Lexein (talk) 05:34, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Request for clarification
Hi. :) Because this is kind of off-topic, I thought I'd bring it here; I don't really understand what you mean by this: "I had never seen the AGFC shortcut on en.wp until you linked to it here. I have seen the WP:CV policy it points to, but that is not quite the same thing as the case made in the behavioural guideline." Can you expand on that? --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:54, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
AGFC (guideline) links to CV (policy), CV itself is directed (primarily) at the person raising a copyright concern rather than the person uploading an image and so does not really support the main point of the AGFC paragraph of AGF, for example the excellent phrase 'good faith corrective action' or the consideration, or not, of intent, a point that AGFC makes but CV does not. As for not seeing the AGFC shortcut, I just had never seen someone use this shortcut in a discussion or dispute resolution before.
With regard to how to interpret the good points made in AGFC, I believe it entirely possible to make the same points appropriately in a context within Commons by using well understood Commons policies. Off the top of my head, COM:Mellow (essay) in conjunction with the Evidence section of COM:Scope (policy) may be helpful, and in practice more helpful for the user in question as these are directed at the uploader rather than someone interested in reviewing potential copyright problems. Providing a rationale that is underpinned by a behavioural guideline that is only well known on the English Wikipedia is likely to continue to be a distraction in a Commons discussion with an international community who may be more familiar with de.wp or fr.wp, for example. --Fæ (talk) 22:05, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
Thanks; that makes sense. :) In this particular case, I was more trying to communicate with him. I don't like him for him to think I'm assuming he's operating in bad faith. As you probably know after our work together on that Bollywood mess, I try to keep people active and editing without the issues. Unfortunately, I'm finding that hard to communicate. :/ I didn't even know that somebody had imported the language from w:WP:AGFC to Commons:AGF. I've always liked that language; hopefully, at some point, it'll be officially adopted. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 22:14, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
Personally, I would avoid that angle as it really is unlikely to gain traction. Promoting (or improving) Mellow is a good way to go to achieve the same positive outcome. There are many in the active Commons community that value the visible differences between this project and others. In the long term I believe we all should cherish the differences between Wikimedia projects as the totality for the open movement makes us more robust and a launchpad for greater innovation. Some say en.wp is a madhouse and others claim that Commons is a sin bin, in general it would be good to tackle these problems, or perceived problems, while holding onto our diversity of approach. --Fæ (talk) 22:22, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
No problem Roger, I was fiddling around Geograph automating some user categorization. If you have an idea in the future for how Faebot might help with some non-controversial categorization across the Geograph photos, drop me a note. I can't promise to do anything quickly but tweaking a bit of Python is something I keep on my back-burner (when not worrying about Arbcom, the chapters, the future of the Foundation and my increasingly annoyed husband). Cheers --Fæ (talk) 22:49, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Nuther Geograph problem
Hi Fae, we have another Geograph problem in the form of grossly undercategorised images where the removal of the Geograph uncategorised template with the category for the grid square was premature. I'm thinking that any geograph image with only hidden categories probably benefits from the templates that add the grid square etc. WereSpielChequers (talk) 20:00, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
FaeBot & geolocation
Hi, I see Category:Pubs in London has 3471 entries- also that your bot can locate images within London Boroughs. Is there a way that the bot can also add the London Borough bit of Category:Pubs in the London/Royal Borough of...? Thereafter, it's a simple case of going through each borough manually sorting out the Category:Former pubs in... Cheers. Rodhullandemu (talk) 16:35, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
Faebot can do that for all those images with coordinates, this might be the minority of files in that category though. I have a lot of chapter stuff on right now, so it might take me a fortnight to take a look at it. --Fæ (talk) 17:37, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
By the way still vastly over-committed on chapter stuff, this bot-work is still on my back burner but I may be slow to get on the case. --Fæ (talk) 18:54, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
Thank you
Thanks for all your help. Also I love the notes you have been adding with the images to the tops of my categories. :) MaybeMaybeMaybe (talk)
No worries, glad to help out. Keep up the good work of looking for more and better Commons content, and stay as mellow as possible when others are looking for unnecessary dramah. --Fæ (talk) 11:54, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi Fæ I just wondered if you would be willing to do a batch flickr upload? I have agreed on my talk page to not add any more myself until my backlog is sorted but this seems like the sort of content you often deal with anyway. http://www.flickr.com/photos/fearlessian/sets/72157624834168406/ this set here is a huge batch of photos of Pride Manchester 2010 which commons currently doesnt have many photos ofCategory:Manchester_Pride_2010. If you can't/won't its cool as you have already done lots for me. Best wishes x MaybeMaybeMaybe (talk) 22:56, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
No problem, thanks for asking, I'll find time to take a look tomorrow. I can only see two of fearlessian's Flickrstream photos on Commons, so I doubt there are any duplicates and, in my view, preserving reasonable quality media coverage of LGBT demonstrations and Gay Pride parades is well within the project scope. The quality varies from great along with a lot of similar shots of the same subject, and some photos that are probably a bit too vague to bother with, so this is the sort of set to walk-through and pick out which are worth uploading. I have uploaded quite a few of my own photos of Gay Pride marches from my personal archives dating back to the last century, perhaps some of my stalkers would think me topic biased, though being LGBT is not normally seen as a conflict of interest . Appealing for coverage of similar diversity related public events is the sort of thing that the outreach project m:Wikimedia LGBT could do more actively to encourage under the banner of preserving a wide range of human knowledge. Cheers --Fæ (talk) 00:03, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I think working in areas where people have experience and insight is hardl a negative and some critics are best ignored. Mainstream material is preserved in so many places whereas material regarding minorities is often in danger of being lost often so helping to preserve is vital I think. One flickr account getting hacked or deleted and suddenly most record of a day could be gone.MaybeMaybeMaybe (talk) 13:22, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I have set f2c to process around 1/3 of the photos and they will be appearing at Category:Manchester Pride 2010 as you suggested. I had to put in new names as they seemed to be just index numbers on Flickr and if you have some time, it would be great if categories and descriptions could be checked and made more useful. Once upload is complete, I'll look at trimming naff and surplus parent auto-categories that f2c has added to some images, based on Flickr tag names (such as Gay and Pride). There's no way I can see of switching this feature off, so the this is where a tool like Help:VisualFileChange.js shows its strength for tidying up.
I'm glad a good amount of them are usable:) I will have a look through them and tidy with hotcat any problems I see as they come in.MaybeMaybeMaybe (talk)
By the way, I think one of the tricks to avoid duplicate uploads is to leave f2c running when it appears to have locked up. I am not sure why some runs can take hours, it might be some issue with queuing jobs at the toolserver side. --Fæ (talk) 10:03, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I noticed that as well, for ages it just seemed to be doing nothing but I left it on when I went to sleep and nearly everything uploaded in the end.MaybeMaybeMaybe (talk) 13:22, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I would strongly recommend that the cause of these errors are identified before this work being done by Faebot is expanded to further parts of the UK. I'm half-inclined to block the bot if this task is continued without working out what's going on with these files. However, this is a significantly lower error rate than has been attained by bot to date.--Nilfanion (talk) 22:56, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
I'll investigate the examples above. For the moment I'll stop the Geograph categorization until I've had a chance to look in detail (chapter stuff has been distracting me from following up). As you say, the error rate must be very low indeed, so these glitches could be something to do with the coordinate distance calculation which might be hard to diagnose. Could you estimate the error rate at the moment? If it is down at the 1/10,000 level, it might not be worth an indefinite pause. As said before, I'm not against any timetable to implement this stuff and I'm quite happy for this to tick over throughout 2013. My only concern would be over-reliance on my time (and interest), so if it is buggy and can't be left to churn through the counties without a lot of attention the project may never be completed. Cheers --Fæ (talk) 23:05, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Error rate is approx 0.15%. The Lights, Camera, Action example is just bizarre. The double county ones also seem odd. On the other hand, this one is likely the result of the script going awry. Juding from the links at [10]: GeoNames, Google, OSM, UK-Postcodes get it wrong and say Cornwall. Geograph gets it wrong too. MapIt gets is the only look-up service to get it right and say Devon. With the way the algorithm is setup, its being out-voted by the wrong answers.
A quick fix might be to change the algorithm from: If OSM and Mapit agree, use that, if not refer to Google and use majority, to: Use Mapit. If Mapit gives no answer, refer to others. (I'm just going to check the MapIt results for the above.)
I certainly agree with you that the real risk here is it taking too much of your time and needing manual intervention constantly.--Nilfanion (talk) 23:30, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for that, I would like to see a much lower error rate than 0.15% as due to the large number of images, the error would be generally a major irritation. Changing the logic to prefer Mapit is easy (OSM seems the most buggy data), though I found that categorization was mainly political on Mapit, rather than being able to furnish historic counties without a lot of up front analysis—see Wales/Monmouthshire example on the project page. Again I'll dry run through some of the failures and see what is possible, though I might need to set aside a day to think about it properly rather than 15 minutes here and there. Sort of worth it though, I think this is one of my most important contributions around here, albeit one that only a handful of folks will notice :-) --Fæ (talk) 23:43, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Ok of the 73: MapIt got 68 right, gave no data for 2, and got 3 wrong (93% right). OSM got 18 right, and 55 wrong (25%). On that basis, preferring MapIt gets the overall error rate to ~0.01% (good enough :). OSM error account for the Lights, Camera, Action too - for some reason OSM thinks Midsomer Norton is in Dorset... An interesting case is this which both MapIt and OSM get wrong. This seems to be a problem with converting co-ordinates. The transformation is accurate within to ~100m, and in that case the error is at the upper end of that and is just enough to switch counties. I think we will just have to accept those errors, as the transformation was done by Geographbot on upload and we can't readily redo it.
Regarding Wales, I'd strongly prefer using the modern political boundaries for primary categorisation. Historical information should be in addition to the present day situation, not instead of it. That also mirrors en.wp's approach. The chief complication with historical data is county boundaries were not static. This list has some of those changes. This means extracting historical info requires significant research. As the transfers affected significant chunks of land, that would be done best at village category, not file, level. For instance, Category:Werrington, Cornwall was in Devon until 1966; it would be good to have concepts like "historically in Devon" and "changed counties in 1966" added as categories. As that applies to every file, there's little point to adding those concepts to all 54 files, when it could just be done to the category.--Nilfanion (talk) 00:31, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
I doubt my husband will let me work on this on Sunday, so I'll leave this parked for the moment until I set up a decent test with a re-write. Is there a test county you would like to choose for a test using the new logic, apart from doing Cornwall/Devon again? I'm wondering if I should take the area of Monmouthshire/Torfaen/Newport as a key test so we can judge the error rate fairly? Newport was going wrong so the photos need to be rechecked anyway. My Wales file has 178,000 Geograph images, so it could be a useful full soak test over a few days, with probably significantly more than 10,000 matches, I hope. --Fæ (talk) 00:43, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Monmouthshire/Newport/Torfaen should be a decent test. Ideally, could you also do the adjacent bit of Gloucestershire too? The Monmouthshire/Gloucestershire border is very convoluted and that makes for a good test area. A bounding box a few km either side of the Wye from Monmouth to Chepstow would do that.--Nilfanion (talk) 01:47, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Soak testing shows that the MapIt data is annoyingly inconsistent on 'level' of classification. I have tried UK Parliament area, County council, played with Civil Parish and settled on Unitary Authority. Civil Parish is probably the most reliable, but to roll this up to County level would be massive amounts of work for each region. The problem appears to be that the higher levels tend to swap down to Parish or similar if not found, rather than leaving it blank. The challenge here is setting up good logic so we can neatly map 99%+ of images without having a massive complex region name mapping exercise. The following shows MapIt only matches for our test region on a sample of 4,000 images:
Set up an obvious mapping list for the highest returns in the soak test (e.g. Stroud, Bristol City, Gloucestershire County)
Rerun soak test to check
Set up the Wanted list as a simple set of strings (e.g. Monmouthshire, Newport, South Gloucestershire, Cardiff, Bristol, Caerphilly, Torfaen)
Set up an obvious Not Wanted list of likely returns (e.g. Powys) if this avoids excessive processing
Run main categorization script
Where MapIt gives a return, check against the Wanted list and Not Wanted list and finish if a match
Where there is no return from MapIt or the area is no match for Wanted and Not Wanted lists, check against OSM and Google maps, go for 2/3 match and check again.
There are a few tweaks I need to make before doing this for real, such as improving the soak test routine to give me a nice list to reuse in the main script (hm, I could even let GMaps make a county mapping suggestion automatically to then be hand-checked and used in the main script...). A few more days delay I would guess, depending on any Christmas priorities.
I would hope that a process like this would mean that I could set up a County (or a couple together) with around 20 or 30 minutes of work, and then processing runs itself for a week, without any more intervention. Knocking these off once a week during next year would not seem too much of a burden, once the routines were nicely established. --Fæ (talk) 12:52, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Parliamentary constituencies should be avoided as they can and do cross admin borders. For instance, Newport East covers parts of (modern) Monmouthshire as well as Newport proper.
Unitary Authority ought to work for Scotland and Wales, and a fair chunk of England. It won't match all of England, as not all of England is covered by them. However, if there is no UA there will be a County Council (or vice versa). So just checking for those two things ought to catch everything: Check for UA, if none check for county.
Could you give an example where MapIt fails at high-level and goes down to parish level? And how exactly are you grabbing the MapIt data - is it via the JSON info (which is a pain to read compared to xml)?
Civil Parish level will be far too tedious for this job, but in longer term if we can figure out a Civil Parish data -> Category mapping, that will facilitate full localisation to (more or less) village level.--Nilfanion (talk)
I think you've given me exactly the right direction. Looking at [11] gave me "St Briavels" whereas if I had checked UA then county, I would have been given "Gloucestershire". Similarly Stroud would become Gloucestershire and Newland would also be returned as Gloucestershire.
I am getting the MapIt data in JSON format, it was a real drag to debug my routine to read it, but that does seem to work okay though I will look again at what happens when it fails to return the search-for field.
Okay, I'll redo my MapIt reading routine and redo the soak test; might run out of time to finish it today though. Thanks for your help, it makes all the difference to be able to bounce it off someone else, particularly for someone as ignorant on geography as me. --Fæ (talk) 13:59, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
wanted=['Monmouthshire','Blaenau Gwent','Bridgend','Caerphilly','Cardiff','Carmarthenshire','Ceredigion','Conwy','Denbighshire','Flintshire','Gwynedd','Isle of Anglesey','Monmouthshire','Neath Port Talbot','Newport','Pembrokeshire','Powys','Rhondda Cynon Taf','Swansea','Torfaen','Vale of Glamorgan','Wrexham','Gloucestershire','Herefordshire','North Somerset','Bristol'] (unnecessarily long, but doesn't hurt).
So that looks like a sensible set of results for a sample of 4,000. Over the next few days, I'll update my main script with the same logic and I'll probably limit changes to matches to Monmouthshire, Torfaen, Newport and Gloucestershire to complete this test in full. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 22:45, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
A couple comments: UAs are not necessarily counties, and are sometimes contained within them. eg North Somerset is in the county of Somerset (and within the scope of Category:Somerset), but as a UA is not administered by Somerset County Council. Treating North Somerset separately is fine (provided Category:Geograph images in North Somerset is a subcat of Category:Geograph images in Somerset), as is mapping North Somerset to Somerset directly. Not a big deal either way.
More seriously, UA+County Council isn't enough for all of England. Metropolitan Districts (eg Manchester) and London Boroughs (eg Camden) are distinct from those. The settings above will be fine for test area, but will fail in the big cities. A fuller London Borough > Metropolitan District > UA > County test will capture everything - with one exception.
The exception is the Isles of Scilly, which are unique. However, an additional check shouldn't be needed there - the MapIt test will fail, it will drop to the fallback tests and those will sort it out.--Nilfanion (talk) 22:24, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
London Boroughs are indeed very different, and I have been using the special fields for London available in the OS data, similarly I have already done the Isles of Scilly separately, so these may yet stay special cases. I agree that it would be nice to create a generic script that follows the logic you suggest and it could even cater to trap any special case (like IoS or London) rather than over relying on OSM/GMaps as the fall-back. It strikes me that once this work has covered all the of UK, decisions such as how to structure the categories for Somerset will be done, so future re-runs or the creation of related non-hidden categories will be far less problematic.
I like your suggested flow of "London Borough > Metropolitan District > UA > County" and I'll look at implementing it. However, if the current "UA > County" is sufficient for Wales, then I suggest this is worked out in parallel to finishing off that case, as well as the other areas (Cornwall/Devon, London and the Isle of Wight) that are currently 'paused' and can shift over to the logic of preferring OS as a priority, even though I might re-run these sets from the start just to take advantage of slightly better accuracy. That way, if I get busy before Christmas, Faebot can be left occupied nicely finishing off these regions before I start some real testing on large chunks of, say, West Scotland or Ireland.
In the longer term (well into 2013), I would like the bot to be nice enough to polish off the code so that someone in the future might re-use it or it can become a regularly running bot, plus I can then look at the possibilities of extending beyond Geograph and similarly thinking about how to drill down into Civil Parishes and applying non-hidden place categories. Baby steps first though. --Fæ (talk) 22:47, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Agree with that lot :) Once the localisation script is proven robust it would be good to extend it to non-hidden cats, and non-Geograph files.--Nilfanion (talk) 23:07, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Duplicate image(s)
Hi, Fae, I've just seen a recent Flickr upload by your script: File:Anchor, Bankside, SE1 (2587601649).jpg. However, we already have this image as File:Anchor Bankside SE1.jpg in Category:Pubs in Bankside. Now, I've managed to reduce Category:Pubs in London from over 3500 images to under 200, so if your script is checking that category for duplicates, it shouldn't- it should be checking subcategories. I've already found several duplicates uploaded by others, and this is even before I start on the Pubs by London Borough & Pubs in London by area categories. Is there a sensible way of avoiding duplicates? Cheers. Rodhullandemu (talk) 23:53, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi, this duplicate was created when I used Flickr2Commons (the newer version) on a handful of SE London pubs that appeared to have been missed. F2C seems to check if a file with the same name already exists and if the Flickr URL is back linked from Commons, it doesn't check any particular category. Most of the past duplicates I have noticed that were created using the tool were when it appeared to stop working and I restarted it; I don't try that any more, but leave it running overnight if necessary, even then some images that appear to not have been uploaded actually have been when I check up. At the moment, I'm unsure of the exact scenarios by which duplicates can be created, but with the steps I have taken my sample uploads have not been problematic. For example Category:Photos by AfghanistanMatters and Category:Photos by antwerpenR seem to have passed off without any problem. I am left with the view that F2C is only really useful for Flickrstreams where there is none currently uploaded from that user, a great pity.
I am left with the view that F2C is a great tool but it needs more polishing with respect to defensive design, and to really ensure we avoid automatic duplicates. For example, rather than just creating "<filename> (2).jpg", it would be great if the tool triggered a checksum comparison and forced another check for the user where they visually checked the images side by side. I have also been in the bizarre situation of unknowingly uploading lower resolution versions of an image that already exists on Commons, so a way of finding identical images at different resolutions would be terribly useful, even if this were some sort of sweeping-up daemonic process. --Fæ (talk) 11:12, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
I have written a Python script that can sniff through a category or user contributions, find any with the doubtful " (2)", or 3 to 9, in the image title (which is what Flickr2Commons does when creating a duplicate) and work out if there is an original that currently exists and has the identical checksum. I have run this for MaybeMaybeMaybe to create a table of suggested deletions and I have done this for my own uploads below, which only showed up one image that I had not already flagged as a duplicate on the same day I uploaded it. This could be smarter and more wide-ranging (such as picking up your example), but it'll do for the moment. If there is a category you would like me to point Faebot at to do the same check, I'll happily run this for you. Cheers --Fæ (talk) 14:03, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, I've nearly finished dispersing Category:Pubs in London and will go on to Category:Former pubs in London. Thereafter, it's a case of going through each borough and dispersing to sub-areas. As regards duplicates, they will all have to be checked for correct categories anyway (bots add the most bizarre categories!), so maybe it's not yet appropriate to flag duplicates. Rodhullandemu (talk) 16:30, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
This belongs to a tradition of Louis-Wain-type anthropomorphized cat art without attributed funny quotes which predates LOLcats by at least a hundred years, so your categorization is inaccurate and anachronistic. AnonMoos (talk) 01:48, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
The original is more likely to pre-date Louis Wain, who did not start his drawings of cats until 1886. I would class this as more general Kitsch which is far more wide ranging in subject matter than Wain's work. As for Lolcats, the Wikipedia article about the meme includes photographs as early as 1905 which are used to illustrate the topic, even though the phenomenon is only traced back to 2006. There is no rule that says the image of a cat has to be contemporaneous with the creation of the text that goes with it or even that it has to be a cat. The fact that I put text against the image, on the internet, has made it a Lolcat. Cheers --Fæ (talk) 06:10, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
According to your criteria, if someone puts white text on a JPEG of the Mona Lisa and posts it to 4CHAN, that makes Michaelangelo's painting a LOLcat. P.S. Why do you have so much garbage on this page (which my browser refuses to fully load)? AnonMoos (talk) 07:42, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
No that would be a LOLangelo. Happy to go with your judgement either way. Yes this page is on the long side, I'll look at doing a bit more archiving this week. --Fæ (talk) 10:31, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
If you spot another like that just drop me a note, it's an easy fix with Help:VisualFileChange.js - in this case they seem to have already been moved. Whilst a batch upload is on-going there's not much point in moving them until all the files are uploaded. At the current time tools, like F2C don't have a way of switching off the auto-categorization based on tag name, which often means a small amount of tidying up afterwards. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 09:19, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Except that's not a batch upload - that's a problem with Faebot's Geograph script. That needs a tweak so that Newport maps to the right category.--Nilfanion (talk) 11:36, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Oops, well spotted, I'm grateful for this being pointed out. I was confusing this with a Rhode Island set of photos I uploaded this week and as someone had already done the housekeeping there was not an exemplar to look at. I have halted the Geograph script (it's less than halfway through at the moment) and will add a Newport trap to ensure it goes to Category:Newport,_Wales (it can only be that one in my current county mappings). Good grief, the lack of systematic category naming makes these incredibly hard to predict in advance. --Fæ (talk) 11:42, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Newport should now be categorized correctly, let me know if any more unpredicted oddities are spotted during this test run and I'll happily try to adjust for them.
Here is a first example. Note that the category is only added to images where my script spots that there are no other visible categories on the image, consequently adding the county is a reasonable basic improvement. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 13:29, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
That looks fine - and I agree with that additional job. A more advanced check would be add if not in any location-based category: So if its in a village cat don't add, if it's in topic-in-county don't add, but if the only cat is a plant species one, add the county.
With regards to the lack of systematic names, there are a number of other county cats that will have the same problem if this isn't accounted for (eg Category:Norfolk). It would be sensible to get a bit of prep done, and sort out the mapping from county name to category name - I can assist there.--Nilfanion (talk) 22:02, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
I guess RD beat me to it, but 500k edits is definitely something special, so I thought I'd still leave a small token of recognition. Anyways, happy holidays and best wishes for 2013! INeverCry08:10, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks INeverCry, your name is good advice for Commons and I appreciate how you keep this place running by skilfully wielding the mop of administration. Cheers --Fæ (talk) 08:57, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
The mop-wielding analogy is especially fitting considering my chief area of activity here. It'
s too bad you're not a fellow "janitor" (why isn't there a better word for those who mop, like mopper, moppist, or mopsman)? The title "administrator" suggests suits and ties rather than cleaning implements and coveralls doesn't it? INeverCry09:56, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Yes, something like "caretaker" would be nicer and more accurate than admin. As for why I'm not a janitor, you may want to dig out my Commons RFA from a year ago, which I closed early on advice, after a series of abusive off-wiki allegations and a blackmail threat, that resulted in me reporting the facts to the Metropolitan police for investigation. I am sad to say that malicious scare tactics and cyberbullying are effective, cause massive personal distress, drive well intentioned contributors away and threaten the reputation of this project. --Fæ (talk) 10:10, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
I saw it a while ago, but I didn't quite make it to the bottom. ;) I wasn't into such things back when that RFA took place, but I would've voted Support. INeverCry18:41, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
However, finding and uploading great photos like these below in the last 24 hours, cheer me up no end. --Fæ (talk) 12:04, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Yes, it's an interesting problem. Commons does accept this sort of licence at the moment. In this case the archives at the LSE do a good job assessing what they release. Having been involved in the Hall-Carpenter Archives which are now part of their collection, I am familiar with the material and their methods. Photographs such as this one, have been donated by folks that were part of the GLF and other groups who wanted to pass their papers and photos on for the public benefit. Any risk here is borne by the LSE and their methods, it would be a bit odd for Commons to second-guess the assessment of the archivists, and any assessment we make does not supersede the release on Flickr, or on their own website, that they will stand by. --Fæ (talk) 22:29, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
OK, fair enough. I thought the quoted phrasing sounded a bit "we don't really know"; maybe it's just hedging of bets. Rd232 (talk) 22:54, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Alan Light images
Hi, Fæ. You may know from Alan Light's Flickr pages that his preferred attribution is "photo by Alan Light". I haven't used Flickr2Commons so I don't know how feasible this is, but is there any way to replace the generic license tag {{cc-by-2.0}} with {{cc-by-2.0|photo by Alan Light}} at the time of upload? I've been trailing along behind you making the changes using VisualFileChange, but is there any way to make that change on the front end? Cheers. Rrburke (talk) 15:17, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Not with F2C, it's a bit limited. I'm almost done with uploads from Alan Light's Flickrstream for now, but I'll just sweep up this generically for all his images with a tiny bit of Python. So hold on for a few minutes and it'll happen automagically. Good spot and I'll make sure this happens for any future uploads. --Fæ (talk) 15:20, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Done, a few waiting for the API to process them, but 80-odd images needed attribution across all images in Category:Photographs by Alan Light (nearly 4,000). Let me know if something has been missed. F2C will add whatever categories you fancy, but only take the standard licence as it exists on Flickr, so this sort of better attribution would need to be after upload. There is a general field that gets added to the bottom of the description, but this would be in addition to the imported licence. Thanks for pointing this improvement out for me, and doing a bit of housekeeping with VFC. --Fæ (talk) 15:33, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Ah, had I but known: I think I've done everything except whatever was uploaded very recently.
I have gone with whatever Alan Light called the event in his photos. There is no convention for naming of these events and "official" names can vary from "Pride", "Pride March", "Gay Pride", "Pride Parade", etc. I would avoid renaming across the board unless you have double checked against some official site or there are banners in the photos to make sure. In the case of the London Pride event, I recall many heated debates (not on Commons) about naming the 'festival' versus the 'march' (one was effectively a commercial event, the other purely political) plus advocates of "LGBT Pride" vs. "Gay Pride" getting very heated; this is probably why neither Gay nor LGBT is used in the event title these days. Your call, I'm not too worried so long as folks can find the photos, but don't be surprised if it becomes a discussion at some point... --Fæ (talk) 15:44, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
I don't want to stir up a bees nest, naturally, but I think consistent categorization would actually make the files easier to find and use. However, you're right, I think, that consistency should be subordinated to accuracy when the celebration's name takes a different form from the conventional [City X] Pride. Chicago's is called The Chicago Pride Parade, which is straightforward enough and matches the current category name. SF Pride's official name, incidentally, is San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Pride Celebration, although it is typically referred simply to as San Francisco Pride. OTOH, Los Angeles Pride's official name is LA Pride. I think renaming probably creates more problems than it solves. Cheers. --02:49, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm not going to worry too much. If Hipcrime comes after me more persistently, then I'll think about it. Sadly, using my time to justify blocking one or two accounts is unlikely to make any difference to the real life damage and distress this person and their cohort has already caused me on other projects and off-wiki, or may create in the future. Me being openly gay seems a key point of motivation for these people persisting with me as a target, an observable fact which speaks volumes. --Fæ (talk) 19:09, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi Cirt; yes, that comment was by a sock of Badmachine (talk·contribs) whom I blocked indefinitely for harassing Fae; the IP address was also blocked by myself for two hours (and I see it has not edited since, so I assume that it was a good decision). odder (talk) 22:17, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
This DR nomination has been closed, and I'm not in a position of having too much free time, so I am going to answer your message here instead of continuing the discussion about the image. The problem with that image is that (1) it isn't important who nominated it for deletion, (2) it isn't important how the person has been behaving in relation to you for the past year or so, (3) it isn't important which edit it was for you, but (4) it is important who the original creator and copyright holder of the picture was.
When uploading the image onto Commons, you wrote that you were the original creator of the image; this came not to be true, and you admitted that both during our IRC conversation last night as well as on the DR page itself.
Seriously, this is not a way that such an experienced user like you should act when uploading stuff on Commons; I guess you know all the basic rules by heart, and you should know that derivative work of a copyrighted work is also copyrighted, and that the same scheme works for works released under copyleft licences, too — so that when you claim that a scan of a picture is released under CC-BY-SA 3.0, it means that the original work was also released under that licence (or that the copyright was passed to the person who decided to release it under this licence).
I see that you managed to change the file description by now, and I'm really glad you did so, but my point remains: why did you give false information about the author of the picture when uploading the file in the first place? Should I assume that you forgot who the original author was, and only remembered it when the picture was nominated for deletion?
And by the way: I've mentioned this before, and I'll repeat it again: you are focusing too much on the person that started this nomination instead of focusing on the points being raised; I would really like not to get involved in the whole harassment issue, and I don't want to be accused of being on one side or the other, so you can consider this a third-party opinion. odder (talk) 22:16, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
I am unsure how to answer your question. I was perfectly honest with you on IRC and perfectly honest in the DR. You are highlighting that I am focusing on the person and at the same time you are accusing me of lying, which appears very personal to me. I used the standard setting for uploading the photo and as I fully own the copyright never thought it needed a great deal of explanation. The DR is closed, the image amended to be super, super clear as to legal status, you can be assured that my experience with you has been painful enough for me not to forget this in a hurry. What else are you looking for here? Thanks --Fæ (talk) 22:24, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Well, let's just have this clear: I am not accusing you of lying — I think I have already proven that you gave false information when uploading the file in the first place. I am also unsure whether I can trust your claim that you used the standard settings when uploading the file; at least for me the UploadWizard suggest choosing This file is not my own work in step 2, and that's the setting I choose when I upload works created by someone else.
And thank you for being so frank in your last sentence — I now see that you really do prefer to focus on the person instead of the point; rest assured that I don't have a problem with you not forgetting the painful experience with me in a hurry.odder (talk) 22:34, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. I think I understand you better now and hopefully we both appreciate the distinction between the accusations of lying and the less personal issue of how to provide sufficient information on upload. It seems odd to me why clarifications cannot be politely requested by discussion rather than rushing to a formal adversarial deletion request which may include bad faith allegations, but then that is just my mellow point of view rather than the established norm on Commons. --Fæ (talk) 22:43, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Comment I personally think the reasoning behind the above DR was weaker than a casino cocktail. People take snapshots of their buddies all the time, and they usually don't spend even a single second thinking about the copyright status of such photos. The above DR concerns an image where I wouldn't begin to think there was some kind of dishonest intention involved. What the hell would Fae's motivation be? INeverCry02:20, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Help ?
Hello!
I'm not very experienced with Commons and I've uploaded 2 files today, one is the original from Flickr, and the other one is a cropped version. I didn't know how to upload the 2nd photo correctly and I see some bot failed to recognise it as a legit upload. I've seen you're active round here and I was wondering if you could help me with this one. Lucian C. (talk) 18:03, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
No worries, marked as reviewed and sorted out the description a little. You may want to try derivativeFX which makes a good job of creating a new image page for you, when you have a file you have worked on and the original exists on Commons, oh, and I vaguely recall it is a feature in the upload wizard (you can say the photo is not yours, and link to where it came from on Commons). Cheers --Fæ (talk) 18:17, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for letting me know. I haven't heard anything back yet, though with Flickrmail these can easily be overlooked by users who are less active. I'll remember to drop you a note if this Flickr user gives us the nod. --Fæ (talk) 22:26, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Geograph in county - December
I've started to analyse the latest run, at the time I took my capture there were about 18K in the relevant Geograph in county cats. I'm about 1/3 of the way through now and I'll give some initial results:
15 images appear to be in the wrong Geograph in <county> cat. I will study these more fully when I'm done and try to identify why. However, I expect most of these can be explained away (error on Geograph, subject/camera precision, poor geocoding on Commons as in the earlier Monkton Wyld example) and are not the result of a script error.
I have identified more than 1,000 images with the correct Geograph in <county> cat, but had cats for the wrong county previously added (primarily by Geographbot).
This second point is worse than I was expecting (c20% of the total have the wrong district?) and probably reflects the confusing geography of SE Wales. I dread to think what accuracy at village level is like - it may well be over 50% wrong! I've also found a prime example (this) of why I'm so concerned about getting it right. That pub is definitely in Cardiff, however GeographBot misplaced it in Newport. This was accepted by the first human editor, who also removed the check template. Once the template is gone its all but impossible to identify a location error.
I will complete my check, and feedback full results when I'm done. However, I can say your script now appears both reliable and accurate in nearly all cases (and is orders-of-magnitude better than the previous situation). I think I can use this accurate info to use my own bot and correct many of the cat errors. In short: It works :)
All that's needed now is to ensure the correct mapping from county/UA/MB to Commons category, and avoid any disambiguation errors (as reported above). The same basic concept should also work at the parish-level, but will be much more prone to disambig errors.--Nilfanion (talk) 21:31, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
Great, thanks for all the work going into double checking. I'm particularly pleased that my work in getting this script working will flush out existing errors. Christmas seems to be rolling on with incredible speed, so no hurry in finishing the testing, I like the cautious approach we have taken on this, so that the outcome is as good as the data allows. --Fæ (talk) 21:43, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
Update The test set of 25,300 images finished today at 11:29 UTC, so the full set is ready for checking through. Cheers --Fæ (talk) 11:50, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
I don't think that error is possible in the new script. This change was made before the test run started, so it looks like an old glitch. I'll consider making the current script more defensive - it currently skips categorization if a geograph place categories is found, I think it would better if it stripped them out and replaced them if they differ from the county/place being recommended. --Fæ (talk) 11:56, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
OK, completed my analysis. Faebot detected 2,800 files in the wrong county cats (~17% of my sample), and placed 66 (~0.3%) in the wrong county. There are 4 causes of these errors:
A few were due to an errors on the older run not being corrected.
In one case (File:Denny Island - geograph.org.uk - 98769.jpg), MapIt returned nothing useful. This meant the script went to the other sources, which assign it to North Somerset (closest address to location), but both the foreground and the island are in Monmouthshire.
Subject/camera error and some poor geocoding by Geograph users in some. For instance, File:A view of Garway Hill - geograph.org.uk - 1192882.jpg is obviously a picture of the ruin in the foreground, but the location provided is well beyond it.
The largest issue affects 50-60 of the files, and overlaps somewhat with the above. For most files in the batch upload Geograph provides the location as a 6 figure grid ref (100m precision). Allowing for minor errors by the Geograph user, the location reported by Geograph may be as much as much as 200m from the location intended by the Geograph user.
Its notable that, with the exception of the first two error type above, all the misplaced files are within 200m of the border (and typically closer, sometimes as little as a stone's throw away). File:Brockweir Moravian Church - geograph.org.uk - 204791.jpg is in Glos, on the bank of the River Wye, and the error in grid ref is enough to get into Monmouthshire. That's wrong, but its where the geolocation is. A script cannot do any better than this, so I'd say the bot is good to go! :)
One thing we could do about the border zones, where errors occur, is to categorise in a temp cat for human review. In theory, this should be possible (though I'm not sure how to do it in practice). The human can then fix the geocoding and the categories when necessary.
Geograph is now using 8 figure grid refs (10m precision). Some of the early files on geograph are only to 1km precision. So more recent files, not those from the batch upload, will have many fewer errors. Collaborating with Geograph to improve the locations seems sensible, if we notice an error we could feed it back to them, as we correct it ourselves here.
And a final comment - it should be obvious that things will get worse at the parish level. Only a tiny area is within 200m of a county border, but a much larger area is within 200m of a parish boundary. But even if the error rate is as high as 5%, its well worth doing, as that's a massive improvement on a 50% error rate! Just need to make sure the process ends with a human review.--Nilfanion (talk) 12:24, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
The feeling I get as Faebot's operator when he's performing better than expected. Thanks for the thumbs up. I have restarted the far South West Geograph place categorization and will cautiously see this ticking over with the new logic, treating Mapit/Ordnance Survey data as the priority, before kicking off the other categorization sub-projects. Cheers --Fæ (talk) 12:52, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
FYI - I've just used some of the data from the Wales check to do a bot run. [12] is an example of the easy improvements I can make with a known county. I'll resist temptation to carry out more of those runs until the main runs get somewhere (as there may be errors in Wales still). The example I linked also shows a problem I can't readily correct - Abertillery the wrong locality, in the wrong county. A bit harder to identify those to remove, never mind correct.--Nilfanion (talk) 00:00, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm looking forward to all the corrections that can be teased out making for some neat bot/categorization tool runs. Thanks for crediting Faebot on the change, nice. I am behind on Christmas stuff, but hope to revise one of the other scripts that should be re-started later next week, and hopefully start making the code generically easy to reuse (well, for me at least for the moment). Cornwall/Devon et al, is back up to image 47,169 of 147,957. I originally paused it on 54,231, so it should be about to restart on untouched images rather than just the odd correction; enough on its own to keep Faebot busy for several weeks I would guess. I would probably want to restart London, Isle of Wight then hit Wales again. Wales needs some attention checking the disambiguation categories and so forth, so I might restart it with a sub-region rather than hit the whole of Wales in one massive bite, I'll ponder it. --Fæ (talk) 00:15, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
I'll do a quick listing of the various districts of UK (listing name, category name, and type (UA/LB etc)). List is at User:Nilfanion/Districts. Those in bold are where the Commons cat doesn't match the simple name. I've left a column for the ID on MapIt, if that is useful I can populate it.--Nilfanion (talk) 00:20, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Category:Uploads by High Contrast
Hello!
I think you should ask me first before you create a category called "Category:Uploads by High Contrast". I disagree with this creation. Regards, High Contrast (talk) 23:00, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi High Contrast, sorry for not getting around to drop you a note on your user talk page to explain. I have been looking at accidental duplicates created through use of the Flickr upload bot and as you are a reasonably significant user, I have created this category. After the experience of MaybeMaybeMaybe and my own accidental duplicates created by Flickr2Commons, I have been considering a wider discussion about using categories like this as good practice, particularly as most users (including admins) find it difficult to examine an uploader's pattern of work. I can remove it shortly after running the duplicate diagnostic if you prefer, or keep the information as an upload report rather than a category. What is it that concerns you about using hidden user categories of this type using the public information already available?
BTW, as it has finished populating, I am just running the duplicate check script now. You can find a useful example of what it can find at User talk:Oxyman#Duplicate analysis.
The category has been deleted in the meantime. Good for now. Firstly, I think that active users should be contacted if a user related category is wished to be created. Secondly, such a category (esp. the one you have created of me) cannot be complete - many of my flickr uploads did not appear in it. Thirdly, I regularly do duplicate checks of my flickr transfers. And finally, I also have a user related upload gallery - interferences can appear when a comparable category gets greated without informing the user. Regards, High Contrast (talk) 18:28, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
I agree, it was an oversight on my part for which I apologise. I'll ponder what good practice should be for these things as feedback on the VP looks generally positive. Cheers --Fæ (talk) 19:42, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi MPF, thanks for pointing these out, I had missed the problem with the text as I had assumed this was their own. I suggest you hold off spending time on fixing these for a day or two; I'll write a short script to systematically yank out all the suspect text, probably leaving in the bit before the overview. Should not take long for me to sort out, but don't want to upset my hubby by playing around with Python on Christmas day. If you notice any more crap tags, let me know and I'll yank these out at the same time. Happy holidays! --Fæ (talk) 17:12, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Excellent, thanks! If you can set it to leave just the scientific name (Emberiza citrinella in the above example), or see my edits on the ones I did complete already (e.g. here), that'd be best. Happy Hols for you too! - MPF (talk) 17:48, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Have fiddled with this, but wanted to improve it a little before letting it loose. May take another day or two due to finishing off the Christmas turkey et al, taking priority. --Fæ (talk) 22:54, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
I have kicked off the trimming, you can see an example at Blue Tit. When I have encountered questions about extracting simple text from factual databases (such as the British Museum on-line catalogue), limiting the extract to a small number of words is considered by most to be a sufficient action to avoid any copyright challenge or issue with the source institution. I am limiting the extract to less than 80 characters from any paragraph, hopefully this will be seen as reasonable by any on-looker, though I would be happy to raise the question on the VP or the CP noticeboard. I will return to the Latin name category - I think we could automatically add the category, but this might have to wait until a week or so's time when I return from visiting relatives. Cheers --Fæ (talk) 12:09, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
I realized that VFC could do the Latin name thing. I used /(Latin name\n([\w ]{3,50})\n[\w\W]*)/gmi but it was a mistake to automatically removed the uncategorized template, though I suspect those that did not have the Latin name will be quickly re-marked by the bot. If this has caused any other errors, give me an example and I'll try to work out how to fix the remainers or exceptions. --Fæ (talk) 12:56, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! My preference would be to strip out the entire RSPB text, not just because of the copyright, but also because it is out of scope for Commons, per COM:NOT; all that's needed is the identity and location (a location name picked up from the coordinates would be good: in the above Blue Tit example, "Broadmeadows, Derbyshire, UK"), and any other information directly relevant to that photo, rather than to the species as a whole. So thus I'd replace the entire text with: "Blue Tit ''[[Cyanistes caeruleus]]'' at a nestbox, Broadmeadows, Derbyshire, UK". The code stuff /(Latin name\n([\w ]{3,50})\n[\w\W]*)/gmi I'm afraid means absolutely nothing to me ;-) Hope you have a nice trip! - MPF (talk) 01:38, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
*cough* I like the top hat, I'm thinking of a resolution to make them mandatory for chapter meetings next year, just so we remember we are British. All I need to go with it is a Union Jack shirt, I'm sure there'll be plenty cheap on eBay after the Olympics. :-) --Fæ (talk) 12:46, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Done Thanks for the tip, OTRS flag now added. --Fæ (talk) 15:29, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
--Fæ (talk) 11:54, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
. Appealing for coverage of similar diversity related public events is the sort of thing that the outreach project m:Wikimedia LGBT could do more actively to encourage under the banner of preserving a wide range of human knowledge. Cheers --Fæ (talk) 00:03, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Cheers --Fæ (talk) 23:05, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
INeverCry 09:56, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Support. INeverCry 18:41, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
--Fæ (talk) 12:04, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Uber-happy
Uber-thonged
Uber-proud
Comment I personally think the reasoning behind the above DR was weaker than a casino cocktail. People take snapshots of their buddies all the time, and they usually don't spend even a single second thinking about the copyright status of such photos. The above DR concerns an image where I wouldn't begin to think there was some kind of dishonest intention involved. What the hell would Fae's motivation be? INeverCry 02:20, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
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