W3C

– DRAFT –
Trust the Origin, Trust the Content - Originator Profile

25 September 2024

Attendees

Present
Anthony_Nadalin, Bert, Chris_Needham, Daisuke_Kodajima, dom, Dominique Hazael-Massieux, duga, dynamis6, estark, gendler, hiroki_endo, Jay, Jun, Kaz_Ashimura, Kazuhiro_Hoya, kurosaka, Leonie_Watson, Louay_Bassbouss, Martin_Thomson, Max_Gendler, mgarrish, oomata, osamu, rbyers, Rick_Byers, ryuichi, sheistyle, shiestyle, shigeya, Takahiro_Aritaki, tantek, tzviya8, Tzviya_Siegman, Wendy_Reid, wendyreid
Regrets
-
Chair
Michiko Kuriyama, Shigeya Suzuki
Scribe
naomi, kaz

Meeting minutes

Organization

Michiko: welcome to OP breakout session
… to our discussion we welcome your input
… to explore our solution

[Michiko explains slides]
… if this fake informatioon distributed, people will get trouble
… how we can avold this kind of situation
… technology can and should help that
… OP collabolated with partnership, established 2023
… including local newspapers, publishers, etc
… global orgs are participating as well

[Michiko shows an example of Yomiuri shimbun online]
… in a further small window, you can see info which can be seen easy way with safe way

[we are watching a video how OP works]

<mt> was that 2 trillion USD or JPY? big difference between the pictures and words

Michiko: mt, 2 trillion is JPY. We will share the video and materials later

Technical explanations

Shigeya: about design of OP
… we are adding content attestation, not only the entire web page
… 1, identity, data model and presentation
… government info as well
… OP is bit generalize to the web pages
… inside of content attesttation set, it provides proof and link to sites
… which consists of Core Profile, Web Media Profile and one more Profile Annotations

<mt> is this technical material available anywhere? The o-p website still says that English material is not available yet

shigeya: (talks about the key points)
… Identity
… OP includes both human redable and machine processable information
… consisting of Core Profile, Web Media Profile and Profile @@@
… Presentation
… implemented as browser extension
… Baseline Governance Framework
… profile issuers for initial deployment
… core profile, app-specific profile and organization profile
… JP newspapers, 3rd-party embership certification
… Chain of Trust and Machine Processing
… designed to allow lightweight decision making
… OP consumers can decide whether accept of reject
… Gaps OP fils
… identity vs X.509 PKI
… scalability challenges there
… Development Status
… initial development done
… 3 phases
… 1. limited number of media outlets
… 2. outlet via aggregators, digital ads
… 3. local gov outlets
… Standardization and Discussions
… data, identity and presentation
… when to start verification?
… SRI for external resources and SRI extension (1)
… content attestation includes integrity property
… select HTML elements with CSS selectors
… SRI for external resources and SRI extension (2)
… support SRI for additional external resource types
… define integrity property for multiple resource with single tag

michiko: (notes we'll share the slides later)

wendy: any example?
… curious about how it works

shigeya: can't provide resources in English, sorry...
… to be provided soon

martin: tx for the explanation
… helpful to see documentation
… would ask what the goal is
… trying to create a governance system to determine what truth is?
… sounds kind of ambitious and possibly dystopian

tatsuya: would like to introduce the technology today

<mt> let the minutes reflect that I used the word "dystopian"

tatsuya: Web contents to be verified by all the users
… using 3rd-party certification, etc.
… it's just launched
… try to start certification providers

shigeya: we don't think we're creating dystopian world
… not going to become so
… we need to verify authenticity of the originator
… we dont have that yet
… we're not aiming entirely controlled world

chris: we should be winding back to the use cases
… would like to hear about use cases we have
… one of the things we do as the owner of our web site
… would like to do some indication
… the content genuinely comes from us
… trust relationship of BBC
… would like to see possible solution for that purpose
… the other view on news distributor
… difficulty of service verification
… any sort of technical indication
… what the content comes from is important
… having indication where the information comes from
… identify those kinds of problems

jun: OP doesn't care about whether the information itself is true or false
… handles the originator of the information
… some kind of mechanism provided to the end user to verify that

shigeya: how the fragments of the news to be handled
… some news from Yomiuri or Yahoo news to be distributed
… aggregator mechanism can identify which comes from which

tatsuya: we're focusing on simple problems
… regarding your concerns
… may related to ads
… e.g., many natural disasters there in Japan
… we can see many fake news sites
… we need to clarify which information is really provided by Yomiuri
… we can split the definitions
… just started to verify the originator

rbyers: important problem
… not sure f possible to handle each component within the Web content
… different level of trust mechanism included there
… authentication for the headline and the content

michiko: (shoes an example)
… each part handled separately

rbyers: actual story inside of the extension window?

shigeya: the content is not shown in the extension window
… don't have the live demo at the moment
… extension just shows which part comes from where

rbyers: have done penetration tests?

shigeya: the extension is implemented as a browser extension using JS
… so could be attacked
… the verification of where the content comes from is done here
… it's not good enough from security viewpoint at the moment
… but the functionality is useful

rbyers: very bad attacker can handle that

tzviya: very interesting presentation

<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to clarify trust model

tzviya: similar to Chris

<tzviya8> https://www.w3.org/2018/10/credibility-tech/

tzviya: credible web did something also
… related to reputational risks
… trying to create some mechanism attackers can't make spoof
… millions of fake books there
… cheaper content might be fake
… also would like to see examples

<Zakim> wendyreid, you wanted to ask about whether threat modelling has been conducted

wendy: wanted to talk about threat modelling
… many of encryption/authentication for publishing also
… any resources on that?

tatsuya: let me clarify the question

wendy: challenges on different components introduced within one page, etc.
… resources are broaden
… wondering about threat model

tatsuya: tx
… my opinion is...
… same answer to the previous questions
… spoofing is a big problem to us too
… heard some news from Forbs
… huge web site providing huge contents
… some of them as fake
… difficult to recognize which content comes from Forbs actually
… very important to show that
… we have 2000 local govs in Japan
… fighting with fake information
… we're now trying to work for that

jun: local gov responsibility is largely about disaster handling
… distribute information for every disaster situation

emily: 2 questions
… key differences from extended validation certificatess, C2PA, etc.

shigeya: C2PA based on X.509
… has their own trust framework
… EB certificate is not enough
… some of the certification for news outlet association can be used additionally
… seems to be useful

emily: have you tested with users how they interpret information?

shigeya: source information is verified by OPCIP
… we can view the certification information
… but how to present the results is a question
… no good way on browser yet
… need some good mechanism

martin: still unclear about the property and the system
… is this about some sort of secondly entity itself?
… content produced, e.g., by BBC?

shigeya: both

martin: goal to be applied to social media, messaging service also?

shigeya: not to be applied to them yet
… they have different characteristics
… this is the first session about OP (at W3C)
… next step to show more details
… let us know about your opinions

tatsuya: looking for opportunity to join the CG
… practical CG

kaz: which CG?
… Credential CG?
… or some other possible CG(s)?

shigeya: would like to start to work within the Credible Web CG

Credible Web CG

[adjourned]

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 229 (Thu Jul 25 08:38:54 2024 UTC).