Forum:General proposals/Archive 3

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Add Order Numbers from Ultimate's E3 video to character pages

Something I feel should be considered, since it more or less covered every character bar a small handful, is adding an entry in the info-boxes of the character pages providing their number (including Echo/Epsilon numbers where relevant). The numbers were so extensive and were pointed specifically by Sakurai, despite mostly just being the order characters appeared in (which only makes sense from one game to the next, but maybe there's a second layer to decide ordering of characters there?), so I feel that adding them is a good idea, though that's only my opinion.

After all, if no further mention of the numbers is made, they can always be removed later. Thoughts? Wixelt (talk) 18:55, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

I disagree that they have any importance outside perhaps trivia. It was just a gimmick to showcase how all characters are returning. Toomai Glittershine The Brass 18:56, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

Adding "Ultimate" as part of the stage game appearance section

I have already done this to a couple of pages, but before I continue, I would like to ask if it is okay to continue with this for all of the confirmed stages in Ultimate. I am aware that not everyone wants to know about stages or, more specifically, returning stages that are appearing in a title that has not been released yet. The main purpose of asking this is to make sure that it is okay to label these familiar stages as coming to Ultimate, knowing that some people would prefer not to know until its release. Runwaymadness55 (talk) 22:24, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

If your only concern is giving away spoilers, don't let it stop you from adding info to our pages. SmashWiki is not spoiler-safe. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 01:55, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

Gender-neutral writing

I've noticed there's been a bit of a flurry of edits lately regarding pronoun usage for characters with multiple genders (Wii Fit Trainer, Inkling, et al). The current style is using the pronouns of the default choice (so Robin uses male pronouns and Wii Fit Trainer uses female pronouns, for example). While I agree that the entries should probably be rewritten to be more gender-neutral, I think we should use the singular they rather than "(s)he", "his/her", etc. This would make the writing less clunky in comparison while still maintaining neutrality. Any thoughts? DryKirby64 (talk) 21:34, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

I'm on Team Keep-it-as-is. It's undeniable that there is a "default" gender for nearly all characters with multiple gender options, and it is also equally undeniable that "they" still carries a strong connotation of plurality that makes pages just that much clunkier to write. Should we also include multiple profile pictures for fighters? What about Bowser Jr., whose default form is a completely different character than the other options? Do we write his article in gender neutral language to reflect that? It seems like a lot of work that just doesn't have to be done. Toymaker's Creation "Thank you for your contribution." 21:45, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

The way Bowser Jr. is written about usually refers to him alone, with the Koopalings mentioned in plural as needed. They're undeniably separate characters, whereas Robin, Wii Fit Trainer, etc. have alternate genders for the same character. It's worth noting that the official wording is inconsistent; some trophies are written specifically reference the character's gender, like Robin's or Wii Fit Trainer's, while others go out of their way to write gender-neutrally, such as their Final Smash trophies and Corrin's trophies. The loading screen tips for these characters are all gender-neutral, as well. However, none of them use the singular they. There's probably not an elegant gender-neutral solution, so I'm not opposed to keeping it as-is; anything is better than "his/her". DryKirby64 (talk) 22:07, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

You're right about there being no elegant gender-neutral solution, which was likely why the wiki has the policy it has now. In Japanese, there are better nongendered pronouns than we have in English, so it would make sense for the people translating the loading screen tips and trophy info using gender neutral language. We on the wiki, however, are cataloging a lot more information, and readability is very important here. The official material may not be consistent, but we should be as often as we can. So we have to make a choice: be more accurate or be easier to read. It's a small trade-off, and I don't think the small amount of accuracy gained would be worth the loss and the effort. Toymaker's Creation "Thank you for your contribution."

Oppose, as per Toymaker. Plus, I also think that using either style of pronoun (they, his/her or [s]he) would impact the readability of each page. Plus, although this is probably a bad oppose reason - there's the many instances each character is talked about on other pages. Do you want to be going through all those and changing them? And will those chances retain the readability of each page? I think not. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 21:56, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

There's no need to change it. If we ignore all other concerns that gender-neutral pronouns bring such as readability, it eventually boils down to "is referring to X as 'they' absolutely necessary? If so, does that warrant appropriate changes to every character with multiple gender options?" it's been agreed that this isn't the case, and hasn't been since the rule was conceived 4 years ago. Unless more future cases show up that require the rule to be clarified (i.e. a new char. with gender variations is announced), this shouldn't be discussed again. Also, regarding how the official games handle these characters gender-wise, remember SmashWiki isn't official, so not all (in)consistencies from official sources regarding gender or w/e should be followed by the book. Nokii (talk) 22:34, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

Stop putting in frame data/damage values/etc. in Smash Ultimate's Changes sections

I noticed in the Changes sections on character pages, people are writing down changes about frame data/move speed, damage and knockback values, hitbox alterations, launch trajectories, all that specific move detail. A reminder that what we seen at E3 was just a demo and is not fully reflective of the released game; first we don't even know how old the demo was (stuff we seen may have already been outdated), and farther balance adjustments are going to be made. All these values are extremely liable to be altered by the actual released game (remember the Smash 4 E3 2013 demo match where Mega Man's down smash was multi-hitting and dealt over 40% uncharged?), and putting such values in now are misleading readers on how they will be in the released game. As such, any changes about these sort of details should be scrubbed from the character pages and kept off until we actually have the released game in our hands. Keep the changes limited to actual new moves, animations, and mechanical changes (e.g. a move no longer making a character helpless), stuff that will realistically not be changing by release. Omega Tyrant 23:18, 27 June 2018 (EDT)

This also goes for such changes seen in any of the trailers, those are footage from old versions of the game (with even some pretty apparent bugs seen like Lemmy's face disappearing in the roster reveal trailer) and a lot of the frame data observed is just as liable to be changed by the release version. Omega Tyrant 23:34, 27 June 2018 (EDT)

Support. Completely agree with you. Additionally, some people aren't even taking the increased damage in 1v1s into account when they list damage changes (not to mention it appears to not apply under certain conditions, and even this might change in the final game), and knockback changes are harder to determine with the new launch speed. DracoRex, Creator of the Land 23:40, 27 June 2018 (EDT)

Support. It was mentioned also on the first Nintendo Treehouse demo by Sakurai that those things "may" change in the future, which as shown in the past means they probably will change. [1] Unknown the Hedgehog (talk) 23:43, 27 June 2018 (EDT)

Support. I don't even think anything more even needs to be said. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 00:59, 28 June 2018 (EDT)

Oppose. I don't think not having detailed change data would be any better than having it. The demo is a good way to forecast what changes will be in the final product, and we might as well keep track of them here since this is a good place to store data for competitive players. If any changes are made to the demo, we can just update them, and if someone puts in misinformation then others can correct it. Fitzpeter (talk) 23:01, 28 June 2018 (EDT)

Oppose, it seems like by that logic we shouldn't have included any technical changes in SSB4 pages until the game was done being patched. If there are accurately measurable changes present in the E3 game, then why not list them, and amend anything that was changed when the game comes out. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 03:54, 29 June 2018 (EDT)

Part of the problem is that we have a lot of people adding changes and notes based on counting frames seen in the demo videos. Which is fair enough, those videos are in 60fps, and it's how we obtain frame data for a lot of things. But, Sakurai himself said that there will likely be some major changes, and even now, we're having a few people add a lot of things based on circumstantial evidence rather than scientific methods. Remember, there are added variables with 1v1 games due to the damage being amped up - we just simply don't have enough evidence to justify adding everything we can.

Furthermore, there is no implication that we shouldn't have waited until SSB4 stopped getting patches. If we did wait for that, we'd be waiting a long time due to the fact that nobody ever said that SSB4 would no longer be patched. We thought the game was done with getting patched before they updated to include the Corrin, Bayonetta and Cloud amiibo. We should indeed stay up to date on the game as patches get released, but before the GAME is released, we're having notes added based on circumstantial evidence that is highly likely to change - and there will be a lot of change. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 04:31, 29 June 2018 (EDT)

@Fitzpeter: As seen by the Mega Man down smash example or people who played Smash 4's E3 2014 demo claiming aerials there had a lot more landing lag, it's really not, and a lot of these values being put in have questionable authenticity to them (in the frame data counting, how do the people know there weren't any frame skips in the video or that the player acted as soon as they could, and how would one deduce a hitbox's size or actual knockback changes without being able to actually test the game?). Plus the game isn't even released yet, so there should be no rush to try getting specific frame data and the like down, no one is actually going to be able to utilize it.

@Alex: By that point the game is actually released, we were actually playing the game, actually able to datamine and thoroughly test stuff to determine accurate values, and there's quite a difference between playing a demo that's 6+ months out from release where so much is liable to change and is clearly not meant to be the final product, and a balance patch that adjusts some values to some characters and are never guaranteed to actually happen. Omega Tyrant 07:00, 29 June 2018 (EDT)

I don't think this is a problem, though. Detailed data is just better data. Any data can be changed, and we'll have to document it when it changes, and there's no practical difference between data with real values and data with vague wording except that numbers are a lot more satisfying. With recordings we can know damage and frame data precisely, and there's no point in not including it deliberately, and it would be silly to take it out. Fitzpeter (talk) 12:33, 30 June 2018 (EDT)

"Detailed data is just better data."

Except this isn't "detailed data", it's flawed data, as not only is a lot of it unprovable or from faulty sources, it's from a 6+ months old beta version of the game that will be adjusted farther before release. Not only are a ton of more minor adjustments going to happen, significant functional changes can occur (like what happened with Mega Man's down smash in Smash 4).

"With recordings we can know damage and frame data precisely"

Except a lot of the damages being put down aren't accounting for the 1v1 no items damage boost/freshness bonus/staleness, and with frame data, how do we know people are acting on the immediate first frame they can, as well as if the video recordings haven't had any frame skips occur? Camcorder recordings are especially dodgy.

"there's no point in not including it deliberately, and it would be silly to take it out."

There is a point when the game isn't released yet and it been made clear farther balance adjustments will happen. The information has no use to begin with, when no one is able to play the game yet outside of a few minutes at the occasional demo, and such information is misleading to readers, when a lot of the "information" may not be reflected in the final game. There is no rush, just put down information about the core mechanics and wait until the game actually releases before trying to get all the frame data and such down. Omega Tyrant 11:30, 1 July 2018 (EDT)

You keep saying the game isn't out yet, but why does that disqualify this data? It's still solid data if it's measured right. This data isn't going to mislead readers. They know this is speculation, but it's speculation by the developers, which definitely makes it worth noting on this wiki. In addition, I think you're overestimating how much of this data will be changed and how much of a problem that is.

Also, you can't assume that much of the data people enter is going to be false. Camcorders are faulty, but the solution is to look at multiple uses of the move to verify your data, or to use flawless vods downloaded from Twitch or other streaming services, like from the tournament at RAGE. Editors sometimes put in faulty data from bad or careless measurements, so some data entered is bad, but isn't that true of wikis in general? Other people that care can come in and fix it, or if no one cares then it'll stay bad forever, but since a lot of people care about Ultimate that probably won't happen in this case.

In addition, it's nice to know exactly how something has been changed. You can say Ivy's standing grab has less ending lag, but number will make that better. It went from a FAF of 50 to 43, so now it's less laggy than Lucas's annoying grab and it's not much worse than a normal grab. If you don't know those numbers, you don't really know much and it kind of sucks in comparison. I also want to tell people exactly how things have been changed, like how else will people know these things? It's lame to not tell people cool details.

Basically, I think it's not harmful to leave this data in, it's pointless to take it out, and a lot of people enjoy having it here. Fitzpeter (talk) 15:54, 1 July 2018 (EDT)

"It's still solid data if it's measured right."

If it's measured right. Solid data measuring isn't watching pre release demo clips that are subject to change, and hoping the video you're watching doesn't skip frames. I would argue that the one and only way data like dmg percent can be measured right is by datamining directly from the fished product. Also, damage in 1v1 matches is higher.

"This data isn't going to mislead readers. They know this is speculation, but it's speculation by the developers, which definitely makes it worth noting on this wiki."

Firstly, SmashWiki is not speculative, and as such it is not worth noting on the Wiki; If you do not have the raw data, you are speculating. Secondly, you don't know if readers will be mislead. It's not just a case of a simple update when a new patch comes out. It's adding information that is: 1) Highly subject to change and you only need to refer to past examples by Omega Tyrant to see that; 2) Pre-release "data" that could just as well be place holders until more fine tuning to balancing the game is made later (and was even confirmed by Sakurai that the data could change); and 3) Speculative at its core and nothing more. And with these three things, it only makes us look bad when that information is different after release. VoqéoT 02:46, 3 July 2018 (EDT)

Support I don't even see how this is debatable: the game is not out yet. We report on the technical stuff when the game comes out. That is how it has been, and how it needs to be. An unreleased game is an unfinished game. (Even though a released game can sometimes be unfinished too...) Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 15:48, 29 June 2018 (EDT)

Support. I agree 100%. I thought it was very odd to see such technical details on an unreleased game for which most of the video we have are off-screen phone recordings. Anthony1996 (talk) 02:02, 30 June 2018 (EDT)

Has consensus been reached? Seems like more supports than opposes, and, imo, the supports have a more compelling case. VoqéoT 09:43, 1 July 2018 (EDT)

I agree with Voqeo, and I motion to declare this proposal 'passed'. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 04:10, 3 July 2018 (EDT)

I don't think that's a good idea, as the consensus is rather weak as it stands. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 04:16, 3 July 2018 (EDT)

I fail to see how this proposal hasn't passed on consensus. As of this writing, it is 6-2 in favor of support for waiting until the game releases. And I will reiterate:

1. Technical data overrides fans slowing down videos.
2. The game is unfinished, so we don't know what could change.
3. The 1v1 damage increase could affect the data in any number of ways (this more so applies to damage percentage changes than frame data).

I too motion to declare this proposal as "passed". Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 20:11, 4 July 2018 (EDT)

Replace artwork from Mario Party 10 with artwork from Mario Party: The Top 100 where appropriate.

Mario Party 10 has been out for 3 years; Mario Party: The Top 100 is newer. In addition, it has just about the same quality images. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 01:03, 30 June 2018 (EDT)

This shouldn't need to be a proposal: if artwork is outdated, then update it. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 02:05, 30 June 2018 (EDT)

I was just making sure it was okay with everyone, especially the admins. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 12:34, 30 June 2018 (EDT)

Again, this isn't something you need approval for; it's how the wiki operates. We update the images based on the most recent artwork of a character (should it line up with their appearance in Smash); there's no one you need to ask or check with to go through with this. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 13:28, 30 June 2018 (EDT)

Done. The MP100 renders were uploaded now. Nokii ^ε (T · C · L) 13:13, 30 June 2018 (EDT)

The revival of galleries on tournament pages

For those unaware, in the past, at least for some tournaments, we've had gallery sections showcasing various photos relevant to the tournament. There was never really any talk about keeping or banning it, but it just faded away anyways. I'd really like to see this become a feature on notable major tournaments. My reason for coming here instead of just doing it anyways was so that we can come to a consensus on whether to allow this or not. I personally think it looks really nice and allows for people to see what the tournament looked like. A good example of a nice-looking gallery section would be Apex 2012. Should this become accepted, we should try to come up with a minimum amount of attendance before a tournament qualifies for a gallery section. Pokebub (talk) 02:25, 5 July 2018 (EDT)

Semi-protect all SSBU character articles

As per SmashWiki is not speculative: "Major articles about unreleased content (such as character articles) will be immediately semi-protected until release to prevent speculation." VoqéoT 03:09, 6 July 2018 (EDT)

And I would also like to add that this will help against random ips adding in their own "findings" on things like dmg percent based on pre release footage. VoqéoT 16:22, 7 July 2018 (EDT)

Support I think that the leaks of movesets aren't official until Nintendo announces them. George Jones 11:34, 17 July 2018 (EDT)

Support This also goes for if the starting roster will either be the Original 8 or 12, plus it’s tiring to revert the edits for the Original 64 unlockables' availability constantly. Like the previous comment, it's not official until Nintendo announces them to be. Speed48 11:41, 17 July 2018 (EDT)

Semi-protect Alternate costume (SSBU)

Alright, I've had enough. Let me be clear that I am sick of all the nonsensical edits made to this page, mostly claiming false resemblances, among other things. Also, all other alternate costume pages are protected, so why not this one? Plus, with Ultimate's sheer number of characters, it would be only harder to control when the game releases. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 03:03, 7 July 2018 (EDT)

Support Agreed! This'll only get worse if something doesn't happen soon! Speed48 03:15, 7 July 2018 (EDT)

Support: As per what has also been said here. VoqéoT 08:04, 7 July 2018 (EDT)

Using item / Pokémon / Assist Trophy artwork from the official SSBU website

Would this be alright to do? The official item artwork on the website is a bit small (240x240 for most), but I feel like it works for the thumbnail size. Bomberman already does this (but with slightly higher resolution artwork), and I've provided another example on Chef Kawasaki's page. I know it's probably a silly question, but I want to confirm if it's alright before I go through with it. DryKirby64 (talk) 18:42, 8 August 2018 (EDT)

Uploading Higher Rez Renders and Images

I happen to possess 4K renders of all the fighters, excluding shulk, falco, and palutena, as well as higher rez versions of all the key visual artwork. I did not resize the images or upscale them in anyway. I was wondering if the wiki would like these assets.--Leafpenguin (talk) 03:30, 20 August 2018 (EDT)

Don't take my answer as final, but we have no real need or use for 4K renders. These are not going to be displayed any larger than 1080p (if that), making the extra pixels a waste of space. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 05:52, 20 August 2018 (EDT)

Making a Shield Breaking Page

I've been on the the wiki for a while now, and can't seem to find a page that collectively shows all the moves that breaks shield. So I was wondering, why not make one. MantiCorgi (talk) 14:31, 4 October 2018 (MT)

Any attack can break a shield when it does enough damage. If you’re referring to attacks that do bonus shield damage, we already have an article for that. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 17:53, 4 October 2018 (EDT)

Remove Smash Blog quotes

I would like to propose that we remove the Smash Blog quotes from the top of Ultimate pages as I believe they create unnecessary clutter (especially on pages like Saffron City that have 2 quotes on top now), and they have a somewhat notorious history with typos (more infamously, Sheik's gender). VoqéoT 14:47, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

Oppose. It’s not really cluttered, that space is blank/filled with an ad when the quote isn’t there. Additionally, where else would we put it? We’re a Smash encyclopedia, and that is Smash information. Without it, we wouldn’t know the names of King K. Rool’s specials or any of that jazz. I don’t think some typos and onestupid Birdo type controversy should stop them from being there. Also ala Birdo, just because the controversy exists does not mean information shouldn’t be there. For instance, in Super Mario Party’s Manual (in the UK) Birdo is refereed to as male. Does that stop MarioWiki from including anything from SMP’s manual? Two letters for you: N O. 72.133.91.93 15:11, 10 October 2018 (EDT)Blueflame105

You must bold your vote. Also, it must be either Support or Oppose, exactly. I've done it for you, but remember to do it next time with three apostrophes around it like '''this'''. Awesomelink234, the Super Spooky Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 15:15, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

This is, to my knowledge, just a user-defined convention and not a strict or enforceable rule. Users should feel free to make whatever comments and/or votes as they like. – Emmett 15:57, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

Votes should be bolded, but they can say whatever the user wants, as long as it is clear which side of the argument they are on. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 20:32, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

Oppose They're as important as any other quote. Awesomelink234, the Super Spooky Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 15:15, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

Oppose Exactly what is so cluttered about them? Aidan, the Spooky Rurouni 15:19, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

Oppose As per the above statements, plus we wouldn't have known the name of Chrom's Final Smash if we removed the quotes. Sonic, the Speedy Spookable 15:20, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

I support in the case of more than one quote, which to me looks absolutely dreadful, but am fairly neutral about them in principle. They're no more "unnecessary clutter" than trivia sections, for example, but we keep those. – Emmett 15:57, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

Support. The typos and inaccuracies are really unsightly. And for people opposing, wouldn't you be okay with replacing them with relevant descriptions from official sources (such as the game itself) after release that aren't riddled with errors? SuperFalconBros (talk) 16:27, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

Oppose: They are needed and it's part of the game! Dragonfirebreath25 (talk) 17:05, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

Oppose In the case of there being only one quote at the top of the article, I personally think that's fine. The only articles that have more than one are the ones that quote multiple instruction books right? So what if instead of outright removing them, we actually make a section (and maybe a fancy table) for them towards the bottom of the article, like maybe after the trophy description in items' case, or before the origin section. Serpent  King 17:07, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

Most of the opposition responses here don't address issue of typos and inaccuracies. Whether it's at the top or bottom of the article, why should we include quotes that are riddled with errors? Where do we draw the line? If the blog post tomorrow says "Roy's sword is strongest at it's tip" or "Captain Falcon's Final Smash unleashes the devastating Warlock Punch on all opponent," are those essential official quotes we have to include? SuperFalconBros (talk) 17:15, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

While there may be some with errors, how prevalent are these mistakes really? Sheik (SSBU) is easily resolvable with a [sic] tag; how many are there that are so inaccurate that they'd be worth disqualifying? – Emmett 17:37, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

It's my opinion that official quotes are nice to have but not necessary to begin with, so any non-trivial percentage of errors ought to be enough to reconsider the source. There are numerous blog posts with typos (including the most recent one for a fighter, Dr. Mario) as well as mistakes like in Sheik's. Even in the absence of errors, you have blurbs like the most recent for Boxing Ring, which unhelpfully says "you'll have to wait and see" what happens if you attack the light fixture... There are even alternative, much cleaner sources with the same gist as the blurbs, such as the NintendoVS Twitter account. SuperFalconBros (talk) 18:08, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

Vehement support. These page-top quotes from manuals and the official site are the laziest kind of cruft and bloat, and do little but push down the actual article - especially on pages like Home-Run Bat which have several. I think we'd have a much cleaner, more legible set of page intros without these cluttering things up. Miles (talk) 18:03, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

For all those supporting for errors, you do know you can just slap on the [sic] tag, right? Sheik and Ganondorf's SSBU pages have it. Awesomelink234, the Super Spooky Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 18:11, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

What is the value added by including error-ridden quotes with minimal content? Why are we degrading the quality of our own articles with typos and inaccuracies, just because "hey, they exist and they're official so why not?" It should be a red flag if we have to add [sic] all over the place. If we really absolutely need some filler text, there are better quality versions of the same blurbs available on the NintendoVS Twitter. SuperFalconBros (talk) 20:17, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

Absolutely not. First off, there's no clutter about a properly-inserted quotebox, and second, a typo can be highlighted with a ^[sic] tag. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 18:35, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

Get pagetop quotes the hell off this wiki. They might deserve to be on the page, but nothing but maintenance templates should be above an article's introductory sentence. Toomai Glittershine The Cloronic 18:58, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

Move them to another part of the page like in a section of their own or something like that. Official quotes are interesting enough to be put in an article but should probably not be the first sentences you read in an article, especially if they're inaccurate. Ponyshment 19:07, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

Oppose, for the reasons stated above (I'll also be partially biased since I started this to begin with :P). I do support moving it, maybe on its own section along other quotes, since I'm having trouble figuring out where they otherwise fit in as the pages are currently. — Nokii (T·C·L) 19:58, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

Oppose, for the reasons stated above. I don't find it too cluttered if there's more than one quote, and if others believe so, there can always be a quote section. SugarCookie420 (talk) 22:03, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

Another blog post, another worthless and vague at best, simply incorrect at worst statement that we're enshrining in the wiki: "[Shulk] is the only fighter that can change his status during battle." Now what does that even mean? Well, by almost any definition, except "the only fighter that can use Monado arts," this is untrue. Wii Fit Trainer and Cloud can both change their character attributes. Can anyone opposing this proposal make an argument why this kind of nonsensical bloat deserves to be in the fighter articles? SuperFalconBros (talk) 22:47, 14 October 2018 (EDT)

If you were to make a more thorough read of the above to find what the arguments are:

• They offer a handful of info that wasn't covered before, including the name for some fighters' Final Smashes.
• A few typos or errors don't justify their removal. We cover stuff like site, manual and trophy descriptions, which are always prone to (and do) have errors. If you want the removal of one, you're also accepting the deletion of the rest, simply because they contain, in one way or another, some sort of error.
  • By extension, the Super Smash Blog quotes are no more "clogged" than any other descriptive text in terms of space. Thus, removing them on this bias is questionable.

We are a Smash wiki, and thus we cover any information provided by the adequate sources. Their coverage does not hurt our reputation as a wiki, neither has anyone claimed that the wiki holds any sources, primary or otherwise, as truthful or factual. It's their responsibility to provide information, and ours to preserve them.

Hopefully that sums it up. — Nokii (T·C·L) 23:39, 14 October 2018 (EDT)

Final Smash names and other mildly important tidbits will be provided by the game itself when it releases, at the very latest. And the rest of your arguments may be defenses against their removal from the wiki as a whole, but I'm not seeing any arguments for their inclusion particularly on the fighter pages in the first place. To be added to those articles, there should be some justification for how they the enhance article, enough to outweigh the negative of including vague/confusing/incorrect information about the fighters on some of those pages. If we put them in the article for the Smash blog, or in a "list of Smash blog quotes" article, then the argument about simply documenting official sources would be adequate, but not for the fighter pages. SuperFalconBros (talk) 11:20, 15 October 2018 (EDT)

Support per Miles and Toomai. I would suggest however, that we move all the Smash blog quotes and manual quotes onto their own pages. Something like "List of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate character quotes" and "List of Super Smash Bros. manual quotes". Even then, I still think that'd be a bit excessive, but a good midpoint for supports and opposers. Pokebub (talk) 00:45, 15 October 2018 (EDT)

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In the interest of facilitating discussion and finding a compromise, it seems that most users are against deleting the comments altogether, while most of the people who want them removed say they would support storing them somewhere else on the page. Does relocating them to a section lower down on the page, perhaps just above or below the Trivia section, have support? – Emmett 10:56, 15 October 2018 (EDT)

Support this idea, as already stated above. The quotes fit well in a section just above the Trivia, especially in the case of SSBU fighters, having the quote just below the character showcase video, which is also how it is on the blog itself. Ponyshment 11:16, 15 October 2018 (EDT)

I support putting them in their own article. I completely oppose having them anywhere on the fighter info articles. SuperFalconBros (talk) 16:41, 15 October 2018 (EDT)

Why are you opposed to them being on the same page? – Emmett 18:26, 15 October 2018 (EDT)

I've written at length above, but to summarize, the blog posts add no value to the fighter pages, and in several cases clearly detract value through vagueness, typos, and inaccuracies. You may argue there aren't that many errors, but any errors should be enough to push these quotes below the bar for inclusion on the dedicated fighter page, when at their best they're still just redundant filler. That said, I realize I'm fighting a losing battle, so I'll support this proposal to at least get them out of the article headers... SuperFalconBros (talk) 10:53, 16 October 2018 (EDT)

This gets my support! It will do just fine. Dragonfirebreath25 (talk) 16:44, 15 October 2018 (EDT)

Creating a page for Vergeben's Rumors

I kinda talked about it here, but I want some actual input. Vergeben's rumors is by far the most popular leak currently out there, since it is currently mostly accurate. Since Gematsu leaks and the ESRB leaks have their own page, why not Vergeben's? I honestly think we should wait, however, at the same time there is a lot of news in that section that could be placed in their own page. SugarCookie420 (talk) 22:10, 10 October 2018 (EDT)

Support - Vergeben's rumors have definitely reached the Gematsu and ESRB leaks' levels of discussion. I was going to suggest we wait, but I realized that it'd be kind of counter-intuitive considering the Gematsu leak page was created during it's period of relevancy. Pokebub (talk) 00:56, 15 October 2018 (EDT)

Support - As Pokebub said, the rumors are pretty huge and start to look like a real leak. -81.218.171.51 07:47, 15 October 2018 (EDT)

Assist Trophy infobox art

I'd like to propose that Assist Trophy characters have the art used on their pages' infoboxes be their home series official art, with their Smash art/renders, if available, under appropriate game-by-game subheaders. This would make them consistent in layout with the pages for playable characters and with each other. Right now our situations are very inconsistent; Alucard, for example, has his SSBU render in the infobox, Sablé Prince has his home series art in the infobox, Barbara has her Brawl art, etc. (This results form Brawl having art for all ATs, SSB4 none, and Ultimate only some.) This standardization would solve this issue. Miles (talk) 17:31, 19 October 2018 (EDT)

Sounds reasonable enough, but do we actually have outside artwork for some of these characters? (Ex. Actual artwork for the Infantry and Tanks from Advance Wars, or Jill from Drill Dozer)?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.133.91.93 (talk • contribs) 17:57, 19 October 2018 (EDT)

Jill already has her artwork from Drill Dozer in her page, and for the case of the Infantry, it's absolutely posssible to use sprites when official artwork cannot be found. This is the case for the Lucas page, for example.

Also, please remember to sign your comments by putting ~~~~ at the end. This helps others recognize who made each comment.

As for the proposal itself, I remember something like this already being proposed, but since nothing came out of it, I support it regardless. — Nokii (T·C·L) 18:26, 19 October 2018 (EDT)

Well, in Infantry and Tanks case (as well as Lucas, Ice Climbers and probably some others), I really would probably prefer their in-game renders over sprites, which I find ugly and unappealing to look at for the most part, and often also don’t resemble the character as they are portrayed in Smash. I guess I’m neutral on this at this point.

Support The system we have now is way too inconsistent. Awesomelink234, the Super Spooky Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 20:05, 19 October 2018 (EDT)

Bumping this; if there's no opposition, I'd like to work on it soon. Now would be the time for any objections. Miles (talk) 18:42, 22 October 2018 (EDT)

No objections from me. Might even help if I can. Aidan, the Spooky Rurouni 18:50, 22 October 2018 (EDT)

Missed this the first time, but I'll help out, too. Let's go for it. DryKirby64 (talk) 18:52, 22 October 2018 (EDT)

As DryKirby64 said literally a minute before I can, I missed out but I can help too if you need it. SugarCookie420 (talk) 18:54, 22 October 2018 (EDT)

Just started on this by changing the infobox art to official art in the cases where it's already available on the wiki. The next step is uploading official art for characters who don't have it here. DryKirby64 (talk) 18:47, 25 October 2018 (EDT)

Finished up on this, so every Assist Trophy should have official art of some kind. But there's a few where I couldn't really find suitable or high-quality official art (Andross, Excitebike, and Saki Amamiya namely), so if you have better pics for those, feel free to change them. DryKirby64 (talk) 23:28, 27 October 2018 (EDT)

I was wondering if it's possible to extend it to character pages as a whole, I have Pokémon pages in mind; if Assist Trophy pages can have it, why not every character? SugarCookie420 (talk) 19:07, 26 October 2018 (EDT)

I was about to start on Smash Run enemy pages, then the Pokémon pages. It's especially helpful in the latter case, though, since every Pokémon has well-documented official art. DryKirby64 (talk) 23:28, 27 October 2018 (EDT)

It's also convenient that most of the official art is in the "Origins" section. I was also thinking about adding pictures of the moves in Pokémon to that section, just to make up for the removal of the official art from that section. SugarCookie420 (talk) 23:35, 27 October 2018 (EDT)

(Retracted) Give E3 2018 presentation its own section

The way the Nintendo Direct page is set up, only "Super Smash Bros. Directs" have their own sections, while everything else gets a bullet point under the "Standard Nintendo Directs" header. This does a disservice to the E3 2018 presentation for Ultimate, which was about as long as most dedicated Smash Directs and revealed plenty of stuff. Is anyone opposed to moving it to its own section? We can leave the bullet point and add "see #E32018-Anchor" to it to point people to the full section. SuperFalconBros (talk) 14:33, 30 October 2018 (EDT)

Never mind -- better idea would be to just link those bullet points to the full sections on the E3 page. SuperFalconBros (talk) 14:38, 30 October 2018 (EDT)

Create a page on SSB4's Ice Climbers glitch

I think the Ice Climbers glitch (which allows players to control multiple characters with a single controller) should have a page or at least a section somewhere. I couldn't seem to find an existing one. This is just a suggestion. This was also my first fourm post; please let me know if I did something wrong. Everone123 (talk) 16:00, 1 November 2018 (EDT)

I don't see why not, it is a major glitch that's pretty well known in the community. SugarCookie420 (talk) 17:34, 4 November 2018 (EST)

Nobody seems to object, so I might go ahead and make it; I'm just worried because the wiki has a red status right now. Everone123, the one who edits on a flip phone (talk) 13:08, 12 November 2018 (EST)

The red status only affects userpages and forums, so it shouldn't be a problem. 50.205.200.10 13:13, 12 November 2018 (EST)

Woah there buddy, lack of consensus doesn’t mean you can just go through with something. Try and bump the proposal and get the input of other users. And also, I oppose. I’d never even heard of it before, and didn’t find many results when searching for it. 72.133.91.93 13:34, 12 November 2018 (EST)Blueflame105

Sorry! I'm still new here. However if you google 'ssb4 "ice climbers glitch"' with quotes you'll probably find more results. Everone123, the one who edits on a flip phone (sometimes) (talk) 08:06, 13 November 2018 (EST)

That very policy says you usually don't have to garner consensus to create in-scope articles. Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 10:36, 13 November 2018 (EST)

Support. See vote tweak further down. I'm pretty sure we have articles for glitches and concepts less notable than this. I'd be willing to help out with the article or even write it. However, I think it should be under a more descriptive name, such as "Multiple player slot glitch". Dr. HyperCake (talk) 09:00, 13 November 2018 (EST)

I've seen other names but "Ice Climbers glitch" is the most widely used as far as I can tell... Everone123, the one who edits on a flip phone (sometimes) (talk) 07:49, 14 November 2018 (EST)

Well, it's just that it's not very descriptive. The Ice Climbers themselves are not at all involved in the glitch (obviously) and are only mentioned due to the similarity to the two-in-one concept. I think it should be something that more closely and literally describes the effects of the glitch, even if it's something like (expanding on my previous) "Control multiple player slots glitch". That said, I do agree that the "Ice Climbers" name is a common name, common enough that it should at least be mentioned and should redirect to the article. I'm not completely opposed to it being the actual name used, but I don't think it's the optimal choice. Dr. HyperCake (talk) 17:11, 14 November 2018 (EST)

I'm neutral. I know of the glitch, and do think it's noteworthy somewhere, but idk about it having its own page. (That said, I can't really think of anywhere else to put it, so let's also say I'm leaning towards support.) Aidan, the Thankful Rurouni 08:19, 14 November 2018 (EST)

I have seen the glitch used in numerous YouTube videos, and given that there are glitches like this one that have their own pages, I think it deserves one. Everone123, the one who edits on a flip phone (sometimes) (talk) 13:04, 14 November 2018 (EST)

If it wasn’t clear in the below proposal, I still oppose this and support having a page for notable glitches, which this would definitely get a section on. 72.133.91.93 14:19, 14 November 2018 (EST)Blueflame105

After considering the "List of Major/Notable glitches" proposal, I'm in agreement with this. I Support the glitch being detailed somewhere on the wiki, but I Oppose the glitch having its own page if a list of glitches page is made and this glitch does not provide enough content to justify a full article, which I am thinking would be the case. If we don't make a proper list of glitches page, though, then I don't see anywhere else for this glitch than its own page. Dr. HyperCake (talk) 17:11, 14 November 2018 (EST)

The glitch would require at least a few paragraphs to explain how to do it for both versions of the game as well as all controllers, and then there's the overview and everything else Everone123, the one who edits on a flip phone (sometimes) (talk) 15:21, 16 November 2018 (EST)

Yeah, but the thing is, like Dr. HyperCake said, is the page wouldn't need to say everything about it. Especially notable glitches could still get their own articles. Also, the Wiki isn't a place for hosting just any information. I don't think it would need to say how to execute it. Also, having a section that's several paragraphs long is not unheard of, nor even abnormal, and you seem to be making a bigger deal out of it than it needs to be. 72.133.91.93 16:18, 16 November 2018 (EST)Blueflame105

Well, I think it's difficult to judge how much content would be in a theoretical article. We could try making a mock-up article in userspace to get an idea; I might do this soon if I find the time. If there turns out to be a lot of content, or no consensus is reached on the "list of glitches" proposal, then I would still support a separate article for this glitch.

As for detailing execution of the glitch, I think that's more or less essential. If we're documenting a glitch and it's reasonable to explain how to perform it, then we should.

Come to think of it, is it necessary to wait for the "list of glitches" proposal to pass before making an article on this? It seems pretty clear that this is more notable than several glitches that already have articles, and that proposal, while related, is separate from this one. If that proposal passes at a later time, and it's determined that this glitch's article would be better suited on the list, we can simply merge it in at that point. Dr. HyperCake (talk) 19:05, 16 November 2018 (EST)

The only opposition so far has been 72.133.91.93; does anyone else have input on this? Everone123, the one who edits on a flip phone (sometimes) (talk) 15:39, 14 November 2018 (EST)

My device can no longer properly edit this discussion due to its size. I will not be able to reply here from this point. Everone123, the one who edits on a flip phone (sometimes) (talk) 22:54, 17 November 2018 (EST)

I've made the article, Multiple player slot glitch. Further discussion on the article's name, or whether it should be an article (if aforementioned "list of glitches" proposal passes), would probably be best suited on its talk page. Dr. HyperCake (talk) 00:01, 18 November 2018 (EST)

spirits

This document contains some info on spirits https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IWYbSlTZ9lxXjjZFXetT3Y4irOTMl3KPCpToExcZBf0 --99.203.31.232 16:01, 11 November 2018 (EST)

List of Major/Notable glitches

So, I think we should have a page for list of well known/major glitches. As it stands, only a few glitches have pages, and the ones that do are incredibly short and don’t really deserve a page so much as a section on a page. This could cover well known things, like SSB4’s Ice Climbers and agh Lay glitches. Currently, a couple are mentioned on the glitch page, and a few have their own pages, but most aren’t mentioned as well. What do you guys think. Some that currently have them (ala this) have pages don’t really deserve them especially over things like the eponymous IC glitch. 72.133.91.93 14:17, 14 November 2018 (EST)Blueflame105

I Support the idea of a page for each game that contains a list of glitches (do we have anything like that already?). However, I believe that major glitches with a lot to be detailed, such as the Master Hand glitch, should retain their own pages; the list pages can have sections for them, providing a link to the main article of the glitch and giving a brief summary. Most glitches could be entirely contained within sections on the list pages, though. Dr. HyperCake (talk) 17:11, 14 November 2018 (EST)

New template for sidegrades

The wiki's current use of a single change template means that there is no way to provide a clear visual distinction between a mechanical sidegrade to a move and an aesthetic difference. It often gets even more confusing considering all of the pages have their own "aesthetics" section to begin with.

It seems very odd to effectively put descriptions such as these under the same "category":

Dr. Mario's head mirror now produces a reflection of the opponent's Social Security number when they are grabbed.

Clean neutral aerial does 0.01% more damage.

To this, I suggest that a new template, named "side," "sidegrade," etc. be added, colored yellow with a "=" sign, keeping in theme with buff and nerf and being visually distinct from change . Here's a mockup: https://imgur.com/cywaGPm (and if concerns arise about being too similar to bugfix , it may be purple, orange, whatever). Luigiofthegods

I would support a better distinction between cosmetic and mechanical changes, but I think an equal sign is perhaps the wrong symbol to use; a tilde (~) might be better, given its use to signify rough equivalence rather than strict? – Emmett 05:45, 16 November 2018 (EST)

New page for the Smash Bros. Countdown

Similar to the character posters from SSB4, the Japanese Smash Bros. Twitter is currently hosting a countdown where various series' official Twitter accounts participate with either new artwork, screenshots, or—in Mario's case—a promo video. I think it'd be ideal to host them on a page here for easy reference; would that be okay? It'd take a bit of work to get it up and running, but it would still be nice to have. DryKirby64 (talk) 22:17, 30 November 2018 (EST)

I support this idea! It'd be a shame for this art and such to be forgotten after the game comes out. I know some (like Cloud's) have been added to some of the SSBU character pages, but it'd be nice to have a page explaining what it was originally for if not just some supposed random art for the game from the companies. Wolff (talk) 15:09, 1 December 2018 (EST)

Music for Spirit Battles

I've noticed that Spirit battles have fixed music. Do you guys think we should add that as part of Spirit Battle info? CleffaGirl173 (talk) 09:55, 7 December 2018 (EST)

Absolutely. It's often a deliberate reference to the home series. Frankly, I'd even go so far as to say we should extend the description of each spirit battle to a short paragraph so it can better discuss references to the home series; at a minimum, though, we should definitely acknowledge the music as we currently do for event matches in previous games. Miles (talk) 10:02, 7 December 2018 (EST)

That'd be welcome as well. And maybe we should rename Unclassified Spirits to Master Spirits once the others have been sorted out. CleffaGirl173 (talk) 11:29, 7 December 2018 (EST)

Short hop damage multiplier template for Smash Ultimate

So, I think I'm the only person right now currently working on the moveset lists for all the newcomers, and I ran into this problem early on. Short hop attacks have a 0.85% damage multiplier in Ultimate, which means aerial attacks had to consist of both full hop and short hop damage numbers. After doing both K. Rool's and Inkling's, the aerial attack percentages got extremely cluttered due to the necessity of listing both types, which got worse when there's sourspots or different hitboxes to list.

What I did was edit the charged smash attack template from SSB4 and made a short hop damage template to fix this.

Now you won't see something like ...

• 12% (full hop, sweetspot), 10% (full hop, sourspot), 2% (full hop, body); 12% (short hop, sweetspot), 10% (short hop, sourspot), 2% (short hop, body)

But instead it's...

• 12% (sweetspot), 10% (sourspot), 2% (body)

I got yelled at for not proposing this before implementing it, but it's significantly better on readability. I'm putting this here for support because I definitely think it will help for future editors wanting to create moveset tables for this game. The format is already on King K. Rool, Inkling, and Simon's pages for reference. Mexi (talk) 21:08, 9 December 2018 (EST)

Here's why I think this requires discussion rather than an easy "yes". For smash attacks, the fact that they do more damage is a property of the move being a smash attack, and so it makes sense to include charged damage. But in this case, an aerial doing different damage is the product of a different action/mechanic altogether (the short hop). We wouldn't put 1v1 damage in all the moveset tables, or fully-inked-opponent damage in the Inkling's table, and I think this is a very similar case. Toomai Glittershine The Superlative 21:21, 9 December 2018 (EST)

My argument is both for the the whole "property" issue, and also for the sake of further additions down the line.

• Argument against "Property of Attack" issue: The 1v1/ink damage is a good argument, and I'd guess things like Aura would be included in this as well. However, while ink and aura are very character-centric mechanics, short hop attacks apply universally for every character. In addition, the short hop modifier is active regardless of the number of players, so it is essentially a property of the moves themselves as well. Basically, I feel that the short hop damage multiplier is as significant as the smash attack charging multiplier, and it requires listing out. This also bring up the second point...
• Edits on new moveset pages: I have seen new moveset tables (that have been added after my proposal) to have wildly incorrect percentages listed due to people not understanding that there is an actual new short hop formula active. The active people who have been fixing these movesets have actually either used my own guideline (Ridley's page) or had to manually remind the editors that the multiplier exists. In this case, the 1v1 multiplier is a good argument against having the short hop multiplier template, but that means our only other option would be to specifically note that the moveset list should only list non-1v1 and full hop damages.

Personally, since the short hop template wasn't too hard to implement and works nicely on the pages they're already on, I think it would be fine to keep this format going. Mexi (talk) 22:50, 16 December 2018 (EST)

Edit: the newly created Ganondorf moveset list has used my specified format, despite no suggestion to do so. Mexi (talk) 01:36, 17 December 2018 (EST)

Yeah, I have to agree with Mexi here. But for the most part I think none of these factors are really an argument against having the short hop template.

• While short hops indeed aren't a part of aerials like charges are of smash attacks, what still stands is the short hop multiplier exclusively affects aerials, and not other moves done out of a short hop like specials. It's still tied to them, just not as directly. That said, it does make sense to implement a template for it.
• 1v1 damage can still not be listed with the short hop template around, since again, the latter only affects aerials. The former affects any kind of damage taken, even from indirect sources.
• Also on that note, since we do have a template for Lucario's Aura, what would be wrong with having a template for Inkling's full ink damage once we know the exact multiplier? This actually works in favor of this proposal, since you have a template exclusive to one character, and this proposal is for a template that, like Mexi said, is universal.
• For a final argument, there may be people saying "what's the point of having the template if people can just calculate the damage with the multiplier?". In that case, what's the point of having the smash attack and Aura damage templates either if they can also be calculated? More points in favor, actually. (That's what we would end up doing for the 1v1 multiplier, I know, but to repeat myself, it's the only multiplier out of these that also affects indirect damage sources.)

That's my input on this. DracoRex, Creator of the Land 08:55, 27 December 2018 (EST)

Add Ultimate "Move List" descriptions to special move pages.

Ultimate has a "Move List" which can be accessed through the Help option on the dashboard or through an option while the game is paused. It gives a brief summary of each fighter's four special moves and Final Smash. I noticed that this is essentially the same thing as previous games' instruction manuals, which many special moves include descriptions from already. On this basis, I think we should add the special move descriptions from Ultimate's Move List to special move pages. They are fairly concise, so they should fit fine, and I think they are informative enough to justify their inclusion. Dr. HyperCake (talk) 12:48, 20 December 2018 (EST)

I will support on this one! We need more info on how each move works in Ultimate! Dragonfirebreath25 (talk) 12:50, 20 December 2018 (EST)

I also support this. Furthermore, I think old manual descriptions and such should be either removed or put in a new section towards the bottom of the page, as some (such as Fireball) are getting rather ugly. AmoongussForLife Talk 19:41, 21 December 2018 (EST)

I see what you mean about that. Would a page like "List of instruction manual descriptions (SSBx)" be a good idea, to avoid having too much clutter? Comparatively, we don't list tips about a move or other subject on their page, and just have "List of tips" pages instead.

Also, I have noticed that others have already begun adding Move List descriptions to some special move pages without opposition, and this proposal has recieved no opposition, so I think it's fine to add these descriptions at this point. Dr. HyperCake (talk) 17:42, 1 January 2019 (EST)

Monado Art/Vision Sliding technique page split

This has been on my mind for a very long time and has been noted multiple times on the Monado Art discussion page, and considering that the latest requests were completely ignored, I feel that it is justified to ask for this here.

I believe the "Monado Art Landing Lag Cancel" section and all its respective techniques of the Monado Art page and (for the same reasons) "Vision Sliding" on the Vision page should be given their own respective pages. I'm quite determined to make it happen since there's a few factors:

• It is a character-specific advanced technique
  • As a Shulk main, those abilities are pretty much the pinnacle of Shulk's advanced techniques. As much as people have mentioned it is "not notable and niche" (these comments were made in 2016, in the middle of the game's lifetime), the page already shows all sorts of things MALLC can do, including lagless ledge getups, instant turnaround, etc. It is not just for reducing landing lag, and the people who have opposed the split don't seem to main nor play Shulk at all, so they may be heavily underestimating the amount of techniques MALLC can do. Finally, it has returned, fully effective, in Ultimate. Thus I see no reason that it should be treated as niche, and they should be treated just like every other advanced technique in the game, a character-specific advanced tech listed on that page (like shellshifting or Lunar Landing).
• Linking "MALLC"/"Vision Sliding" on pages
  • Monado Art Landing Lag Cancel and Vision Sliding both don't count as its own advanced technique, so whenever it needs to be linked, it needs to be written as the rather tedious [Monado Arts#Monado Art Landing Lag Cancel|Monado Arts#Monado Art Landing Lag Canceling] and [Vision#Vision Sliding|Vision Sliding]. As easily as a redirect can solve this problem, splitting the page will allow a straight redirect to the technique's own page, and solve the next factor...
• "But the page is not bloated!" (comment from 2016)
  • Previously, one argument against a split was because the page "was not bloated". This is completely wrong, as the Monado Art page lists five Arts, each with its own attributes, situations that it can be used in, strengths and weaknesses, technical data (how long Arts last, how many intangibility frames are gained when activating an Art, etc), and even Kirby's own use of Monado Arts. Even the origin section takes up so much space since there's an explanation for every Art in the original game. Now Ultimate has arrived and there's a need to list the changes Arts gained from the transition. The page is 34,705 bytes large; it is extremely bloated. That can easily be fixed with a split, and seems logical.
• Author bias
  • As much as I don't want to let this be a factor, I'm the one who wrote majority of those pages (and was the one added the techniques in the first place). I even contacted the Shulk Discord's labbers just to get the info. Essentially at the end of the day, it would be weird for me to ask permission to edit something that I myself added and could modify to improve the wiki as a whole.

Thank you for reading and please show your stand on this. To be frank, as I was the author of the Shulk pages, I may go ahead and split the pages regardless as I put in all the effort to make them as they were now. All I wish to do is improve readability and give Shulk's techs credit where it is due. Mexi (talk) 00:30, 5 January 2019 (EST)

Use the Other Symbol instead of Special Stages

We've been using Battlefield (SSBM)'s unique symbol for minor universes that don't have a symbol. But now that Ultimate has a symbol representing the minor universes that is used in the music tracks and spirits, I think we should start using what's recognized as the "Other" series symbol instead of that one symbol from a Smash original stage. SeanWheeler (talk) 16:53, 17 January 2019 (EST)

Hazard Switch Details on Stage Pages

I was actually rather surprised to see that the information for what gets turned off when you play a stage in Ultimate with hazards switched off is only present on the page for Stage hazard itself. Considering it causes rather large changes to stages in some cases (such as both Pokémon Stadiums staying in regular mode forever and the Falcon Flyer being the only platform on Big Blue) and can influence what stages are viable competitively, I think it would be pertinent to host this information on the pages for the levels themselves. Mega Mario Man (talk) 22:48, 20 January 2019 (EST)

Here's a bit of mockup for what such a thing would look like. Mega Mario Man (talk) 20:36, 12 February 2019 (EST)

• 

  The contents bar, with new Hazards Off section.

• 

  Since Omegas were introduced in Smash 4 and BF Forms are grouped with Omegas, it would make sense to put the Hazards Off section below the Omega + BF Form section.

This info would be useful on each stage's page, but I don't think pictures are necessary, since the differences aren't easily expressed through still images; in many cases, such as the Pokémon Stadiums, they'd be identical to the default images. Besides that, I'm all for it. DryKirby64 (talk) 21:11, 12 February 2019 (EST)

Include global rankings on news template

This is a pretty short and simple suggestion. I think we should start adding global PRs to the news template here whenever the PR officially concludes revealing. This would include 64 League Rankings, MPGR, SSBBRank, PMRank, PGR Ultimate, and PGR Smash 4 if that ever makes a comeback for some reason. Pokebub (talk) 19:46, 1 February 2019 (EST)

Wouldn't it be too long though? All of these lists go to at least 50 places. SugarCookie 420 18:24, 15 February 2019 (EST)

Place alts that have their own costumes on the main section relating to the spefic game they’re in instead of the gallery

My proposal: as you can see here, Cloud’s advent children outfit is placed in Smash 4’s and Ultimate’s sections on his page. This will also be the case for Isabelle, Ike, Wario, Pokémon Trainer, Corrin, Robin, Inkling, and Wii Fit Trainer.

Arguements for: This displays the images muh larger without having to click on them and taking you to another page. Additionally, this also clears up organization. Ike’s gallery is literally only one image with his costume, so noving it to Ultimate’s section and completely ommiting the gallery should organize it a little better. Additionally, in the case of Isabelle and Inkling, they are mixed in with series-canon artwork, and the costumes have zero business being mixed in with those. I’ve made a similar argument referring to placing said costumes in their infobox in tabs, as Advent Cloud’s image (as well as the others I’ve mentioned) has absolutely no business being mixed in with the website images, and it can be displayed much larger.

Debunks: (add them here if you have any)

The current layout: This layout has Cloud’s advent children outfit in the gallery instead, along with the others I mentioned.

Arguements for: Placing another image in the main section stretches out the page with vertical whitespace, and does not conform well with the text on some devices. It also clutters up the page

• How about we not treat some characters differently/more special than others? (such as by uploading such images in the first place).

Debunks: While he whitespace is a problem, I’d argue that displaced and undersized images are more of a problem. Whitespace can be fixed by adding more text. Displaced images just make it look disorganized. While the size is a fixable issue, it will look horrible if they are enlarged while in the gallery. Additionally, I would argue that placing them in the gallery causes even more clutter, due to some of the characters I mentioned only having the costumes in their gallery, causing said pages to have an empty, barren section. In cases where this is not the case, it looks even worse when they are mixed in with series-canon artwork.

The intention was not to treat them more special (though I can understand why you would see it this way), but rather, to make the pages less cluttered and the images less undersized. And some costumes, such as genderswaps, are definitely notable enough to have their own image. Lou Cena (talk) 23:27, 20 February 2019 (EST)

Lou Cena (talk) 06:23, 19 February 2019 (EST)

Supporters of The proposed layout

• As the one who proposed this in the first place, I support changing it Lou Cena (talk) 06:23, 19 February 2019 (EST)

Supporters of the Current layout

• Miles of SmashWiki (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log · of SmashWiki WHOIS)
• How about we not treat some characters differently/more special than others? (such as by uploading such images in the first place). Toomai Glittershine The Chronicler 06:45, 20 February 2019 (EST)

Users who have been part of this argument, but have not expressed an opinion

• Wolff (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log · WHOIS)
• SugarCookie420 (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log · WHOIS)
• Aidanzapunk (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log · WHOIS)

Separate tournament news and news about Smash itself

It's clear that with the lack of major Smash news recently, the news box is going to fill up with tournament news, so I think it would be more convenient to have them separated. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 12:42, 21 February 2019 (EST)

Didn't a similar proposal like this fail before? SugarCookie 420 12:43, 21 February 2019 (EST)

Yeah this idea isn't new; every time it comes up we decide "no" because it's not really useful to have a tiny/empty section of non-tournament news. Toomai Glittershine The Xanthic 18:35, 22 February 2019 (EST)

Should we change the default pronouns on Robin, Corrin, Inkling, etc.’s pages to gender neutral pronouns?

The tips in Ultimate use gender-neutral pronouns (In their series” instead of “In his series”), so I feel like we might need to change the rules on this to be consistent with what the actual games say —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.181.102.188 (talk • contribs) 14:30, January 12, 2019

No, refer here to why. SugarCookie420 (talk) 14:39, 12 January 2019 (EST)

Also, I should probably state that SmashWiki is not official, judging how my previous explanation probably wasn't the best. SugarCookie420 (talk) 14:41, 12 January 2019 (EST)

I’m aware that SmashWiki is unofficial. However, in order to be more consistent with the source material, I’d suggest changing the rules on default costumes. I use all of the default genders except Corrin anyways. I just want this to be consistent with official info184.181.102.188 14:50, 12 January 2019 (EST)

I don't think this change would provide any useful benefit. Also note that your example is very limited; the tip text itself largely avoids using pronouns for many of the reversible characters. Toomai Glittershine The Resolute 15:53, 12 January 2019 (EST)

This would provide a useful benefit: being consistent with the ingame slurce material. Even if the tips largely avoid using pronouns in general, I’d say that still counts as treating them as gender-neutral 184.181.102.188 21:43, 12 January 2019 (EST)

Again, SmashWiki is not official. We don't have to change something just to match up with what the game does. Aidan, the Rurouni 22:08, 12 January 2019 (EST)

“Prioritize using official names unless a different name is much more widely used.” (The “Do” number 3 on that page) .Pronouns count as names, as they merely just replace the name with something easier to type. Nintendo officially calls characters with gender alts “they” and “them”. While a majority of fans use specific gendered pronouns, there are cases where the alt’s pronoun is used instead. To appease both ends, I believe that the rule on referring characters as their default gender should be changed, as not only does it use official terms, it also appeases fans of the alts (such as that crazy Corrin fan who keeps showing up) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.181.102.188 (talk • contribs) 22:19, January 12, 2019

Woah, at least watch the personal attacks. Anyways, the Do in number 3 is a rule geared towards smash terms such as "JV5" or "4-stock" and not really names of characters. SugarCookie420 (talk) 22:24, 12 January 2019 (EST)

Alright. Maybe I misunderstood that rule. However, despite SmashWiki being unofficial, I’d still suggest changing genderswap alts to use gender-neutral pronouns to be consistent with what Nintendo says. 184.181.102.188 05:18, 13 January 2019 (EST)

I actually agree with the suggestion that we should use gender neutral language. It avoids ambiguity on pages like this which are about a character not based in Smash and therefore having no default appearance to choose from, and also prevents the future problem of what to do if a character has different default appearances in different Smash games. – Emmett 05:47, 13 January 2019 (EST)

I'd argue that it's not really our problem if home series don't know what a character's default is, and we should just use ours. Regarding your future point, that would require a very specific circumstance of "character has no canon home series gender", "character can be either gender", and "character changes default Smash Bros. gender between games", which I don't think is likely enough to change policy now.

Now that being said, if someone writes an article such that it doesn't use pronouns (like the SSB4/SSBU tips do), that doesn't require this policy to change at all. Toomai Glittershine The Yellow 21:07, 13 January 2019 (EST)

Even if the fighter pages only use the default gendered variants, at least this should be changed from “his” to “their”, as it refers to Corrin in their series, and not as a fighter. The same goes to all other non-fighter pages.

Additionally, about your point about Emmets’s future point being too specific has most of those circumstances filled by half of the genderswap characters already. It’s much less specific than you think. Robin almost always used the female version for their possesed form as Grima (particularly on the trading cards). Villager uses both genders equally in everything but Smash. Lastly, Corrin actually already uses the female gender more often in lpretty much everything but smash (She was clearly the default in Warriors, and she was advertised significantly more in Heroes, to the point where she’s the on the icon for one of the chapters, and was given out for free for a brief period. She also is featured more often on the official Fire Emblem trading cards). The only crietria not filled is if any character has changed their default gender in between games. 184.181.102.188 23:13, 13 January 2019 (EST)

I'm making the assumption that the "changes between games" criteria is by far the least likely to occur. I'm also operating under the presumption that however the character appears in Smash Bros. is more important than how they appear in their home universe.

I should also note that I'm not against having an exception for the general character pages (for example, writing [Corrin] as gender-neutral, but writing [Corrin (SSBU)] and all other pages as SSB-default). Toomai Glittershine Le Grand Fromage 22:35, 15 January 2019 (EST)

I agree that the future-proofing condition is relatively specific and not overly likely, but what is the advantage of having universe-level pages for Corrin be neutral and game-specific pages e.g. Corrin (SSBU) be gendered? – Emmett 13:22, 16 January 2019 (EST)

I do agree that it won’t make too much sense if the universe-level is going to be gender-neutral and the fighter pages be gendered. Should we reopen discussion about this? Lou Cena (talk) 21:36, 10 February 2019 (EST)

It’s been roughly 24 hours. Have we all come to a consensus on if the “refer to characters with multiple genders by their default costume” rule should stay or go? Personally, I’d say remove the rule, as like Emmet said, it’s more consistent with non-fighter pages, and will become less confusing in case a character changes their default gender. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.203.11.147 (talk • contribs) 21:01, January 13, 2019

I think we should wait a bit more, no one has responded after Emmett's point, which to be fair is a pretty valid argument. SugarCookie420 (talk) 21:06, 13 January 2019 (EST)

I brought this up earlier (on the general proposals page) and was mostly met with opposition, but I still think going gender-neutral would be the better option. The "use the gender of the default costume" rule leads to a lot of confusion, and it wouldn't hurt the flow much to just use "they". DryKirby64 (talk) 22:30, 13 January 2019 (EST)

It’s been 48 hours after the proposition was first made. I’m curious to see if we’ve reached a consensus on whether this rule should be changed. If not, how long would the consensus take? Should we just leave it up to a vote? 184.181.102.188 22:59, 14 January 2019 (EST)

From what I have gathered:

Support: IP 184.181.102.188/Lou Cena, 99.203.11.147, Emmett, DryKirby

Oppose: Aidan, Toomai (?), Trainer Alex, SeanWheeler

Neutral: Me

I'd say there's a consensus, but don't take my word for it. SugarCookie420 (talk) 18:09, 15 January 2019 (EST)

Why do you all seem so desperate to push this through as soon as possible? This is a relatively major change that needs weeks to discuss from more than 6-7 people, not days. Toomai Glittershine The Free 22:26, 15 January 2019 (EST)

It’s actually a relatively simple change, which is why I’m scratching my head at it taking so long. Attempting to not break the rules, I actually edited the SSBU pages for Corrin, Inkling, Robin, Villager, and Wii Fit trainer to not contain pronouns at all (aside from the World of Light section, where I specifically state the default one). You can actually check out Corrin (SSBU), Inkling (SSBU), Robin (SSBU), Villager (SSBU), and Wii Fit Trainer (SSBU) to see if they look like the rule should be lifted or banned. Or heck, just replace the rule with a suggestion to avoid using pronouns at all, just like a all of the tips outside of the “In Their Series” section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.181.102.188 (talk • contribs) 00:59, January 16, 2019

I wouldn't support a rule removing all pronouns entirely. When used properly they greatly improve the flow of sentences. That said, while I think it's a simple change in terms of the complexity, it's also not a particularly urgent or important one, so I don't overly see the harm in waiting until discussion has progressed further. – Emmett 13:22, 16 January 2019 (EST)

To respond to Toomai, I was mainly just tallying up the consensus, since IP had asked whether we had one or not. SugarCookie420 (talk) 13:47, 16 January 2019 (EST)

I would like to add another point that might be lame or old-fashioned but I feel should be considered. Many style guides for formal writing continue to discourage or outright ban the singular "they". We shouldn't blindly follow this, but we do try to keep the wiki reasonably formal, and I am of the opinion that the singular "they" feels clunky and hard to grasp in the wiki context. Allow it as optional? Fine. Mandate its usage? No thanks. Toomai Glittershine The Loony 23:20, 22 January 2019 (EST)

I think that’s a good compromise actually. Allow the usage of both default-gender pronouns and gender-neutral pronouns, but don’t mandate the usage of either. To help keep the consistency, would suggesting to avaoid pronouns ad much as possible work, but allow either gender-neutral or default-gender when neccessary? 184.181.102.188 02:49, 23 January 2019 (EST)

I'm feeling a rule something like this:

Some fighters have no defined gender in their home series and change gender in some of their Smash Bros. alternate costumes (such as Robin and Inkling). When discussing these characters in the context of their home series, it is acceptable to refer to them with gender-neutral language. When discussing these characters as Smash Bros. fighters, it is preferred to use the gender of the default costume. In either case, omitting pronouns entirely is a valid style. Do not make edits simply to change one to the other.

Toomai Glittershine The Obfuscating 19:42, 23 January 2019 (EST)

That’s perfect actually. The last part could probably be worded a little better to sound a bit less threatening (“Making edits simply to change pronouns is heavily discouraged”). Otherwise, I think this is a perfect compromise. 184.181.102.188 00:37, 24 January 2019 (EST)

Should I move Toomai’s suggestion rule over to the general proposals thread, or should I wait until my other proposal has a consensus? I’m the IP who made this suggestion by the way. Lou Cena (talk) 19:58, 6 February 2019 (EST)

What “other proposal” are you referring to? – Emmett 04:41, 7 February 2019 (EST)

Currently, I have a proposal for major alternae costumes (such as Wario, Ike, Cloud, Isabelle, Plant Bayonetta, and the aforementioned genderswaps) to be placed in the main imagebox instead of the gallery. It’s kind of related to this one, but I’m not sure if we’re allowed multiple proposals at once. Lou Cena (talk) 12:06, 7 February 2019 (EST)

So is there a consensus here to change? SugarCookie 420 14:28, 9 February 2019 (EST)

Right now, me and Toomai agreed that removing pronouns entirely is a valid practice. Other than that, nobody else has come by to really give thwir opinion in weeks sadly. I remember that the admin Emmet was in support of hanging it to gender-neutral, and another user and another IP agreed on using gender-neutral pronouns. I’d say here is, but last time I changed the Manual of Style page to accompdate it, I was said to be too hasty. We may have to wait.

I don't really see any reason to change the policy regarding smasher pages at all. As far as I'm concerned the current policy works just fine, whereas gender-neutral terms like "they" tend to read rather awkwardly, and will probably just look out of place. Thus far I have not seen a single convincing argument for using gender neutral pronouns on smasher articles like Robin's that doesn't rely on breaking SW:NOT, so until such an argument can be brought forward I would strongly oppose any such change in this sub-policy. Now as for the general character articles I suppose it makes more sense seeing as there isn't really a strict "default" in the home games for many of these characters, but in the context of Smash, there absolutely is. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 14:42, 9 February 2019 (EST)

In the context of smash, some characters with multiple genders use their default less strictly than you’d think. Corrin, for example, is female on thr classic banner and a good portion of gameplay marketing. Additionally, she’s seen on the image label depicting CPU AI. Male Corrin is primarily used on the CSS and some of the marketing depicting all of the characters together (such as the release fay banner or the panoramic) Lou Cena (talk) 14:47, 9 February 2019 (EST)

I don't see the classic mode banner as all that convincing. It would be like saying that since there is a trophy depicting male Wii Fit Trainer that there is no default costume for Wii Fit Trainer. Miscellanea in the game should not say anything about what the default is, since alternate costumes are also depicted on miscellanea as well. In the context of being a playable character, male Corrin is the default costume, and the fighter articles specifically deal with the character as a playable character. As I said before, gendered pronouns read better than neutral ones, and thus I firmly believe that if there is a default gender, then said gender should be used. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 14:53, 9 February 2019 (EST)

The classic mode banner is admittedly weak proof that only applies to Corrin, since she’s the ONLY alt on the banner. Maybe you’re right that miscllanea shouldn’t count. But at the very least, would completely removing pronouns do it as well? That’s another suggestion being made in this thread.Lou Cena (talk) 15:50, 9 February 2019 (EST)

Oh definitely not, if anything sidestepping use of pronouns would make wording even more awkward, not to mention it would make editing the pages a nightmare... Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 15:58, 9 February 2019 (EST)

I can see your arguements very clearly, and I understand them. However, as said by the admin Emmet, I agree that the future-proofing condition is relatively specific and not overly likely, but what is the advantage of having universe-level pages for Corrin be neutral and game-specific pages e.g. Corrin (SSBU) be gendered? I don’t see any particular advantage over specifically stating a character’s gender. In fact, it may deter some users who prefer playing as alternate genders (such as Corrin or Robin). At least acknowledging their existence by not focusing on default gender pronouns should alleviate that. Lou Cena (talk) 02:28, 10 February 2019 (EST)

I may be a couple weeks late, but I would like to use the pronouns of the gender of the default. The singular they just feels like political correctness gone mad and it never made sense for me to use it for a single specific person. Personally I would have preferred if Pokémon used pronouns of their likely genders instead of the dehumanizing "it" like Pikachu is a he and Jigglypuff is a she. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:22, 23 February 2019 (EST)

Actually, now that I think about it, I might wxtwnd this scope to Alph and he Koopalings, and when referring to all characters whose alts include separate indovoduals, we use “they”. Lou Cena (talk) 22:28, 23 February 2019 (EST)

I’d like to make 2 more points in favour of using gender-neutral pronouns: 1. When is the last time you’ve seen somebody use Male Corrin in competetive? I normally see female Corrin, despite her being the alternate. You can’t say that “X mains Corrin because his combo game is incredibly powerful” if Corrin isn’t even a “he” in that context.

2. Now that we have infoboxes containing both genders, it would only make sense to use gender-neutral pronouns. Lou Cena (talk) 22:52, 23 February 2019 (EST)

As someone for whom english isn't a native language (and who got bold with such a sentence, did I get it right ?), I can tell you that the gender neutral "they" is nothing but confusing. When refering to Smash fighters, "he" and "she" feel way more natural, "it" is fine for non-gendered character like the Piranha Plant (or the Pokémons, even if it's a bit weirder), "they" suits plural characters (like the Ice Climbers) but doesn't feel right for actual gender swaping characters like Robin and Corrin, it does work however for characters like the Inklings because those ones feel don't feel as much as a gender swap as they feel like being several different characters, like the Koopalings (female and male Corrin are the same entity, while each Inkling is more of a separate entity). So in the end, while reading/hearing "they" for the Inklings feels fine, seeing people refering to Corrin as "they" feels way more uneasy than seeing them going back and forth between "he" and "she". But that's just an opinion.YoshiRyu (talk) 08:36, 27 February 2019 (EST)

So basically, you’re saying that only Corrin and Robin should still be given default pronouns? Odd, since those two are actually part of why I started the proposal in the first place (since I never see male Corrin used at all, it doesn’t make sense to refer to Corrin as “he” if it’s a “she” in those contexts. A similar, but less extreme thing can be applied to Robin.) Lou Cena (talk) 11:05, 27 February 2019 (EST)

Corrin and Robin, but also the Villager and the Wii Fit Trainer, even if for both of those two, the "they" doesn't feel weird to read because both "villager" and "trainer" are common names that have a plural form : you can say "the villagers" and "the trainers", but you can't really say "the corrins" or "the robins" (also I don't think what you "see" is relevant, SSBU sold millions, how big is the part of the community you can see ?) YoshiRyu (talk) 14:18, 27 February 2019 (EST)

I’ll state 3 sources for when I notnally see female Corrin and Robin: Tournaments, Online, and people I personally know. People I personally know is the least accurate group, since it’s the smallest spectrum, but nearly I know changes their costume to female whenever playing Robin and Corrin. The only time I’ve ever seen anyone pick the male variants is from selecting Random. Online, again, I encounter mostly female Corrin and Robin when facing those characters at all. Even in videos that show online gameplay, Robin and Corrin are female 90% of the time. Tournaments are the only time I see people truly pick male Corrin or Robin, but even then, it’s rare. About 75% of the tournament videos I’ve seen with either character use the female variant. Lou Cena (talk) 19:34, 27 February 2019 (EST)

I know many people have a hard time to understand it, but the competitive scene is not representative of the smash community. SSBU already sold 12 million copies, how many people play in tournament ? 1 000 ? 10 000 ? Even if there was like 100 000 people playing at a competitive level, that would still be less than 1% of the smash community. So even your most accurate source is still not accurate enough. So arguing about how the wiki should refer to either Corrin or Robin for "proper wiki" purpose is fine, but the whole "everybody use the female skin" argument has no weight. YoshiRyu (talk) 04:03, 28 February 2019 (EST)

Additionally, as I stated before, now that infoboxes can have alternate characters in them, I was thinking of actually referring to both Alph and the Koopalings now. As in, these actually will be plural, not a singular “they”. Only Corrin and Robin are arguably the same individual, and those could easily do with an alternate universe explanation (where multiple variations of the same individual can exist simultaneously, such as the 4 Peter Parkers in the new Spider Man movie) Lou Cena (talk) 11:05, 27 February 2019 (EST)

Honestly, if a first sentence talks about Bowser Jr, the following ones should be "he". If another sentence talk about the Koopalings, the following ones should be "they", it's just text consistency, it's that simple. So both "he" and "they" are fine, depending on if you last used "Bowser Jr" or "the Koopalings". YoshiRyu (talk) 14:18, 27 February 2019 (EST)

Example : Bowser Jr drop HIS clown car when HE use HIS up special. The koopalings all have the same up aerial, but THEY all use THEIR own wand when doing so. The use of "he" and "they" depending on the context, feels pretty natural to me here. YoshiRyu (talk) 14:29, 27 February 2019 (EST)

I’d like to make one more point: although Smashwiki is not official, there is almost never any reason to ignore something official and do something unofficial instead. Using pronouns regarding the default gender is one of those. Just because something is not the default option, doesn’t mean that it ahould be shoved aside. The FS meter is turned off by default. Stage Morph is turned off by default. Why should referring to the actual characters do that then? If they truly weren’t supposed to be referred to, they wouldn’t be in the game at all. Lou Cena (talk) 22:45, 27 February 2019 (EST)

1. I don't think it's a good idea reopening discussion here, especially since it seems like it's over. I may be wrong however.
2. Zackray uses male Corrin. There have been people who used Male Robin before (can't come up with it right now, not making an excuse however). Also I don't see how this connects with the gender-neutral argument.
3. Not trying to sound rude, but what does your final point (the one above) connect to your argument? From what I read it supports using the default gender. SugarCookie 420 23:13, 27 February 2019 (EST)

1. I’m not entirely sure if discussion even is over. YoshiRyu added his part to the debate just today.

2. I never said Male Corrin was absolutely never used. I said that in a almost every case I see, wheteher it be online, people I know, or many tournaments, Corrin is used as a female, so using male pronouns doesn’t make sense when Corrin isn’t even used as a male in many contexts

3. The final point is saying that just because something is the not the default, it shouldn’t be ignored on most of the page (I’m aware that the infobox proposal passed, but saying “he” when the infobox can now show female just doesn’t work anymore. I’m currently even working on changing Alph and the Koopalings to being mentioned on Olimar and Bowser Jr.’s pages. Saying “they” isn’t singular anymore. It’s plural.) Lou Cena (talk) 01:39, 28 February 2019 (EST)

I added my part yesterday because I discovered the discussion yesterday. I thought some non english native user point of view could be a nice input to add. YoshiRyu (talk) 04:03, 28 February 2019 (EST)

• I was just about to give my input on the topic. Using "they/them" pronouns is not only the official stance by Nintendo (even though SmashWiki is unofficial), but it feels more like it refers to the character in general as opposed to the specific default alt. I agree that the "everyone uses the female alt" argument holds no weight, as it is highly subjective; what matters is that alternate-gendered skins for the character exist in the first place, and as such, the character in general is "they/them" as opposed to "he/him" or "she/her" as those imply some form of "canonicity" regarding the default skins when it doesn't always hold (e.g. both genders of Inkling in World of Light, female Corrin in the Classic Mode mural). I understand that it's more difficult for non-native English speakers to understand, but English, as a language, is always growing and changing, and using "they/them" is proper grammar, and it never hurts to learn. For example, while there are no gender-nonbinary characters in Smash, many nonbinary people in real life use "they/them" pronouns for themselves in the singular and consider "he/him" or "she/her" to be incorrect. Just my two cents.--Darthrai (talk) 08:26, 28 February 2019 (EST)

Don't be condescending toward non native english speaker please, the point of this wiki is to provide informations about smash, not to teach english. Honestly, the singular "they" will always feel wrong, no matter how hard you want to justify it (they should have made up new words instead of recycling the plural ones). It would even be more natural to simply see "he/she" or "she/he" written everytime you refer to a gender swapping character like Corrin (so time to argue now about "she/he" being more relevant for Corrin than "he/she"). YoshiRyu (talk) 09:05, 28 February 2019 (EST)

I didn't mean to be condescending (and I apologize if I came across that way), and it would be best not to let this degenerate into irrelevant arguments. But as a native English speaker, I can confirm that "they/them" is proper grammar. The fact that one person (regardless of English proficiency) is not familiar/comfortable with the use of such a term does not invalidate that term, and whether that person claims that the term "feels" wrong or not shouldn't matter. (It would be a different matter if we were discussing language that delegitimizes or discriminates against certain groups, but nongendered pronouns do the exact opposite by being more inclusive.) --Darthrai (talk) 09:25, 28 February 2019 (EST)

They/them is moreso because there actually are two genders. Gender-neutral was probably not the best way of explaining it. Anyways, I notified Toomai before discussion spirals out of control (because we have an exact draw on who wants what, as seen by SugarCookie240’s coujt above, which includes everyone but Darthrai and YoshiRyu), and he told me that he would update he Manual of Style today. Basically, the new rule appears to be that both default gender and “they/them” are acceptable now, though which one is preferred is different per page. On non-fighter pages and origin sections, “they/them” will now be preferred, while default pronouns will now be preferred on XXX (SSBX) sections. In either case, using the non-recommended pronoun is fine, and removing pronouns entirely is also acceptable. Lou Cena (talk) 09:33, 28 February 2019 (EST)

That's a decent compromise, but it looks like you're trying to take control of the discussion, and please be careful with that "there actually are two genders" bit... --Darthrai (talk) 09:36, 28 February 2019 (EST)

This discussion has been going on for three months. I’d say it’s a good time to just roll with the conpromise for now, especially since that compromise has been completely ignored despite being one of the first thinga to come up during discussion. Also, don’t bring politics into this, and I was refereing to Corrin and Robin actually having two genders, rather than none. Lou Cena (talk) 09:46, 28 February 2019 (EST)

Got it, I totally agree with the compromise as stated (and, as previously stated, I'm aware that there are no nonbinary characters in Smash apart from Mewtwo arguably). --Darthrai (talk) 09:47, 28 February 2019 (EST)

I'm just providing my non native english speaker viewpoint (while being aware that I'm only one person in the vast internet) : "they" feels weird as it is naturally associated with the idea of plurality (and that's how my brain genuinely translates it in my own language), "he" doesn't, "she" doesn't, "he/she" wouldn't, "she/he" wouldn't. Now you can take my input and do whatever you want with it, I'm not gonna be the one fighting over wording ;) YoshiRyu (talk) 09:56, 28 February 2019 (EST)