Jack Kirby Collector 065
Jack Kirby Collector 065
Jack Kirby Collector 065
SPRING 2015
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OPENING SHOT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2
(way to go, Marvel!)
HEAD-TO-HEAD . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3
(Alex Toth vs. Jack Kirby—who’s
the real King of Comics?)
UNEARTHED . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11
(planet of the Jack-An-Apes)
HOW2? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14
(Kirby’s slashes and squiggles
examined)
GALLERY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .18
(Jimmy Olsen vs. Kamandi)
KIRBY OBSCURA . . . . . . . . . . . . .32
(original, or Archive Edition?)
JACK KIRBY MUSEUM PAGE . . . .34 This issue’s
(visit & join www.kirbymuseum.org) cover is Jack’s
JACK F.A.Q.s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .35 unused Hulk
(in lieu of Mark Evanier’s regular Marvelmania
column, here’s his 2014 Kirby poster art. It
Tribute Panel from Comic-Con) seems Stan Lee
felt that too
KIRBY KINETICS . . . . . . . . . . . . . .48 many of the
(Norris Burroughs on Kirby’s long,
Marvelmania
cosmic journey)
posters were all
INNERVIEW . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .54 by Jack, so he
(a 1987 radio interview with Jack, chose to have
and special guest Stan Lee) some of them
INCIDENTAL ICONOGRAPHY . . . . .73 redrawn by
(Popeye goes socko) other artists who
were working on
RETROSPECTIVE . . . . . . . . . . . . . .74
(a look at key moments in Kirby’s those strips at
1950s career) the time, such
as John Romita
ANIMATTERS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .76 redrawing
(Kirby: King of Beasts) Kirby’s Spidey
KIRBY AS A GENRE . . . . . . . . . . . .82 poster. So Herb
(Kirby hits the stage) Trimpe got the
FOUNDATIONS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .85 nod, but unlike
(Surf’s up) Romita (who
completely re-
COLLECTOR COMMENTS . . . . . . .91 drew Jack’s),
PARTING SHOT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .96 Herb only
redrew the main
Front Cover inks: JACK KIRBY figure, leaving
Front Cover color: TOM ZIUKO the rest all-Jack.
Back Cover inks: MIKE ALLRED For more on
Back Cover color: LAURA ALLRED Herb’s career at
Marvel, check
If you’re viewing a Digital out our new bio
Edition of this publication, The Incredible
PLEASE READ THIS: Herb Trimpe, on
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Simon and Kirby Estates
Opening Shot
“We Are Groot!”
or: “Way to Go,
Marvel & Disney!”
mailed the first copies of
HEAD-To-HEAD
Jack Kirby Vs. Alex Toth
The definitive examination proving who’s the real King of Comics, by John “The MEGO Stretch Hulk” Cimino
3
Both of these creators at their best are unmatched by their
peers. When you look at their bodies of work today, you can
still see their lasting impact on comics, cartoons and creations.
When you ask creators who were some of their biggest influ-
ences, chances are Jack Kirby or Alex Toth will be on their lists.
How could they not be? These two creators have become the
standard and that will never change. Here are two examples of
their prestige by others.
The New York Times, in a Sunday op-ed piece written
more than a decade after his death, on Jack Kirby:
“He created a new grammar of storytelling and a cinematic
style of motion. Once-wooden characters cascaded from one frame
to another—or even from page to page—threatening to fall right out
of the book into the reader’s lap. The force of punches thrown was
visibly and explosively evident. Even at rest, a Kirby character pulsed
with tension and energy in a way that makes movie versions of the
same characters seem static by comparison.”
Journalist Tom Spurgeon on Alex Toth:
“He had an almost transcendent understanding of the power of
art as a visual story component, that he is one of the handful of
people who could seriously enter into Greatest Comic Book Artist of
All-Time discussions, and a giant of 20th Century cartoon design.”
Although I loved their art as a young kid reading comics and
watching cartoons, I didn’t know why I always returned to their
work time and time again. There was just something about it
that drew me in. As I grew older and became more aware, I got
educated by studying them and their work (a 20-year ordeal). I
noticed that they were so admired and heralded by their peers
but yet, so vastly different in art styles. Since both of their styles
intrigued me, I became curious to find out which one really
made more of an impact on the world of comics and popular
fiction. Who was truly better at their peak? Who was more
influential? Who was more creative? It kinda turned into an
obsession of mine... I had to know who has the right to be called
the true “King” of comics! In order to find out that answer, I had
to compare them and stack their talents up against each other
head-to-head.
Evaluating and comparing these two genius creators can
be purely subjective, especially to their fans—because let’s face and most influential creators in the history of the comic book medium
it, fanboys think that their creator of choice is the best at everything. (he’s been dubbed the “William Blake” of comics). He entered into
Hey, I get it, but it’s not really the truth (and I pride myself on the the nascent comic industry in the 1930s in which he drew various
truth). If you take a step back and compare each artist based on comic features under different pen names, ultimately settling on
their greatest strengths and weaknesses, an answer can be found “Jack Kirby.” In 1940, he and writer/editor Joe Simon created the
somewhere in the middle. I know this won’t be easy, but I want an incredibly popular character Captain America for Timely Comics
answer. And just to show the readers how difficult this is, see for (Marvel Comics). During the rest of the 1940s, the highly prolific
yourself how both artists compare to each other with similar action Simon and Kirby team created numerous characters for both Timely
sequences shown in the examples on these two pages. Both are liter- and National (now DC) Comics.
ally flawless... how do you compare perfection? After serving in World War II (fighting under General George S.
I didn’t write this article to disrespect either of these great cre- Patton and almost losing both his legs due to frostbite in the famous
ators. Truth be told, they are both my heroes (along with Stan Lee)! I battle of Bastogne), Kirby returned to comics and worked in a variety
couldn’t tell you how much their works have entertained and of genres. He produced work for a
inspired me throughout my life. It also saddens me that I never got a number of publishers, including DC
chance to meet either of them, to thank them for everything they’ve Comics, Harvey Comics, Hillman
given to me. So here is my chance. I hope you readers will enjoy it as Periodicals and Crestwood
well, because this is a monumental task that is a true labor of love. Publications, where he and Simon
Without further ado, let’s take an analytically-charged in-depth created the genre of romance comics.
look at Jack Kirby and Alex Toth, the two titans of comic book creators, They also launched their own short-
and find out who is really the best of the best! KAAA-POWWW! lived comic company, Mainline
Publications. Kirby ultimately went
on his own and found himself at
Tale of the Tape
orn Jacob Kurtzberg in New York City, Jack Kirby is regarded by
Timely’s 1950s iteration, Atlas
With that said, readers need to understand that this face-off isn’t just about style, it’s
about their brilliance. I compared each artist by analytically breaking their work down into
seven specific categories: Storytelling, Versatility/Detail, Dynamism, Simplicity, Imagination,
Prolificness, and Influence. I will explain how they
stack up to each other in that category, who
has the edge and why (not to mention, I put in
a few pictures of their work as examples). Then
I will do an overall analysis at the end, and try
to come up with a definitive answer.
1. Storytelling
This is the category that separates an artist
and a comic book artist. To be a great comic
book artist, you must adapt the script of the
writer and interpret it through art and panels
(known as sequential art). When it comes to
telling a story with art, Kirby and Toth are sim-
ply the best of the best. They have the visual
eye of a movie director, showing exactly what is
needed in the comic panel to stimulate the eye
and subconsciousness within the reader. They
are both so enormously influential at their abil-
ity to tell a story that it is truly impossible to
determine which artist has the edge. Both are
literally as good as it gets. RESULT: EVEN
2. Versatility/Detail
First off, both artists are completely versa-
tile; there is not much (if anything) that they
cannot draw. Kirby had such talent that most
of the time he came up with his own interpreta-
tions of a particular subject. Toth on the other
hand was a master at studying everything he
could. He was obsessed with knowing every
detail about things, how it worked, how it
moved, etc. He was known to have thousands
upon thousands of books and magazines in his
house (he was a huge fan of National Geographic
magazine). And when Toth drew something, it
was as perfect as it could be, down to the most
minute detail. Kirby wasn’t like this at all; he
was more of a visceral artist that came up with
impressions of things on his own. In this area,
Kirby was too imaginative, too creative and too
dynamic! So in essence, his versatility and
detail lacked due to his style, especially when
compared to Alex Toth. Kirby was known to
have a tough time drawing the specific details
on things, most noticeably on the characters
Spider-Man and Superman (the two biggest
(this spread) An example of multi-panel storytelling from each artist. Kirby used a slam-bang, in-your-face super-heroes ever). It was the inkers that had to
approach. Toth, on the other hand, took a more subtle approach, eschewing Kirby’s traditional layout, and letting
the word balloons become an integral part of the design. Hulk #1 (1962) vs. Detective Comics #442 (1974).
help him out considerably to get them right.
When a drawing called for something more
6
concrete, Toth
was better at it
because that
was his style.
This is a big
reason why
Kirby never
reached the
level Toth did
in the anima-
tion field.
Kirby’s ability
was much better suited for a comic book, while Toth’s
style could excel at both. RESULT: EDGE ALEX TOTH
3. Dynamism
When it comes to pure dynamic expression and
power in art, no one is on the level of Jack Kirby.
Exaggeration is the most time-honored technique for
dynamism in comic book art and Kirby was able to
hone this skill more than any artist before or since.
While this ability may have hindered Kirby in the
Versatility/Detail category above, this is where he
excels. Just about every panel Kirby drew (even if char-
acters were just
standing
around or sit-
ting) screamed
with electricity
and motion. It
was almost as if
the page itself
couldn’t con-
tain the art due
to the unbri-
dled power it
radiated. It was
with this skill
that Kirby
made heroes “super” and comic battles “slugfests.”
While Toth was grounded in reality and detailed-
oriented, he lacked the explosiveness that Kirby could
create. RESULT: EDGE JACK KIRBY
in—they had to step back and look at it for a few minutes to get it.
4. Simplicity Toth was so excruciatingly precise, with so few lines, that you could
Where Kirby excels at being the most dynamic artist ever, being see exactly what his picture was from just a glance. RESULT: EDGE
subtle was not one of his strong points. As for Alex Toth, he was a ALEX TOTH
total master of minimalism. He was a no-frills artist who stripped
out any and everything from a
picture that wasn’t necessary to 5. Imagination
get his point across; it was When you look closely at both
because of this exhaustive artists’ bodies of work, you can see
approach that Toth was such an how much imagination they both
incredible storyteller. It’s also possessed. They were able to come
this level of simplicity that up with ideas and concepts that
changed the entire industry of were so far ahead of their peers
animation as well because that it was truly amazing. Toth had
nobody could do it better or as come up with some of the best
meticulously. Kirby was never character designs, spaceships and
simple—his art and perspectives worlds ever to come out of a
were in different area codes. Saturday morning cartoon. About
Sometimes there was so much 90% of all Hanna-Barbera’s action-
going on in a picture that it was adventure toons from the ’60s and
hard for the reader to take it all ’70s were designed by Toth himself.
7
America in the 1940s was completely different from the way he drew
romance and monster comics in the 1950s. Then in the 1960s at
Marvel when he co-created the Fantastic Four, he went on a creative
binge producing his best work ever! And even more incredible, if
you look at his work from 1961 through 1966, it’s totally different
and better every time... and this is 30 years down the line from when he
became a comic book artist! For someone to have that much intense
creativity, for that long and for that many pages into his career, is
unprecedented. RESULT: EDGE JACK KIRBY
7. Influence
Both artists have legions of fans and their influence is legendary;
nobody can deny that. But Alex Toth is an interesting case because
his impression on other creators goes majorly unnoticed by the
masses (and sometimes even by the creators themselves). Jack Kirby
6. Prolificness
Both of these artists have had long and illus-
trious careers and have produced enormous
catalogs of work that crossed over many genres.
But Toth had a habit of bouncing around from
comic publisher to comic publisher; he never really
established himself on any titles before having a
healthy stay in the animation field (to his credit,
that’s what he liked to do). Jack Kirby on the
other hand produced many legendary title runs,
most famously his uninterrupted 102-issue stint
on The Fantastic Four with Stan Lee. He was a tire-
less workhorse that usually started drawing by
noon and worked until 4:00 in the morning,
seven days a week without any holidays, and
amazingly, he never missed a deadline. During
the 1940s he was known to draw up to an incredi-
ble five pages a day! Kirby was so insanely prolific
that he is the only artist that was the top man in
his field within three decades, and able to reinvent (above) Kirby pencils from Fantastic Four #90 (Sept. 1969), page 20. Jack originated the Skrulls, and it was
himself each time. The way he drew Captain up to Toth to adapt Kirby’s design for use in the 1960s Fantastic Four cartoon series (top left).
8
the “King” in that field), it still doesn’t match
up to the entire impact that Jack Kirby created
in the world of super-heroes. His style, skill and
limitless imagination were perfectly built for it.
His concepts and ideas are so incredibly popu-
lar that it’s making Hollywood billions today!
He just can’t be compared to anyone else for
sheer creative output, resulting in so many
enduring characters. Stan Lee dubbed Jack
“The King of Comics” as a nickname back in
the 1960s, but he was also telling readers the
truth. Even some of the greatest creators ever
went to Kirby for advice and tips to be shown
how to make a true super-hero comic or layout.
Lee was the first to tell his artists to give him
action, perspective and impact, “the way Kirby
does it.” That’s why Kirby would do the layouts
on so many comics for other artists’ during the
1960s; his style was Marvel Comics and they
crushed the competition because of it. In truth,
no one comes close and no one ever will.
But I must say that in the twilight of his
career, Alex Toth managed to get even better.
Most of his work during the 1990s was among
his most brilliant and flawless ever. Even before
his death in 2006, Toth was cranking out
absolute magic and not many other artists can
make that claim. Kirby on the other hand,
actually slowed down and fizzled a bit at the
end of his career, especially in the ’80s and ’90s
before his death in 1994. Regardless, they were
both so far ahead of their peers in terms of skill
and talent that they could never be seen as any-
thing less that two absolute geniuses.
Collaborative Effort
While Jack Kirby is, and will always be
considered “The King of Comics,” let’s make no
mistake, Alex Toth is right up their with him in
the creator hierarchy of the greatest comic book
artists ever. While this has been about them
head-to-head, how about them as a collaborative
team? Believe it or not, as long as they were in
the comics field, they have only worked with
Kirby’s pencils for DC Comics Presents #84 (1985), which started as a Toth Challengers tale (see next page). each other on two stories. The first was X-Men
#12 (1965, below) which saw Kirby do the lay-
doesn’t have this problem. When artists (as well as animators and outs and Toth do the finished art. Surprisingly, this issue is more
movie directors) come into the entertainment industry and want to renowned for being The Juggernaut’s first appearance, rather than
capture the “Supa-Dupa” magic and feel of super-heroes, they are the collaboration of two of the best comic book artists ever.
first told to look at what Jack Kirby brought to the table. It’s a no- The other issue was DC Comics Presents #84 (1985). This comic
brainer: all novices should become educated on his explosiveness, is a bit odd through and through. First off, Superman teams up with
excitement, and raw power because he is simply the master at it! the Challengers of the Unknown, which was unusual. Then Kirby
Kirby was the artist that put comic book art into the stratosphere penciled the first two pages and Toth penciled the next seven pages
and everybody pays homage to him for it (even Alex Toth himself ). for a flashback sequence. Finally, Kirby penciled the remaining 15
And with super-heroes bigger today than ever before with block- pages to finish the
buster movies and merchandise, you can still see Kirby’s influence on comic. It has been said
everything. The only other man who I can think of that can match that the Toth sequence
Jack Kirby in influence in the world of comics and super-heroes is his was originally supposed
partner Stan Lee. NUFF SAID! RESULT: EDGE JACK KIRBY to be a chapter in the
Bob Rozakis/Alex Toth
Overall
After comparing these two legends in this write-up, who do you
series that briefly ran in
Adventure Comics Digest,
and was modified to fit
think should be crowned the true “King” of comics? While Alex Toth
into this story.
has the edge when it comes to animation (and could be considered
9
Two super
artists depict
Superman—
Toth’s Super
Friends and
Kirby’s DC
Comics
Presents #84
(with interior
page by
Toth).
s many of you should know by now—and if not, shame on you—I’ve worked as an animator for the last 30 years. I
A did Scooby-Doo before Scrappy-Doo. I did Super Friends in the ’70s—that’s how far back I go. I’ve worked with
Alex Toth, Gil Kane, Mike Sekowsky, and of course
the great Jack Kirby.
Jack started working in
animation in California in
1978 with the Fantastic Four.
From 1979-85, he was in high
demand from studios like
Hanna-Barbera and Ruby-
Spears (both owned by the
same company, Taft
Broadcasting). Kirby
worked on shows you
wouldn’t believe he worked
on! He did design work on
Scooby-Doo, The New
Shmoo, The Thing (with a
1
teenaged Benjy Grimm
who presses two half-rings together and says,
“Thing Ring, do your thing!”), and even preliminary
(above) Non-Kirby designs for the Drak Pack.
model sheet for the Alex Toth’s Space Ghost (1966) was the show that
1980 Space Ghost
series in Space-Stars. inspired me to become an animator. Getting to work on
the new show (1980) was a dream come true. Getting to
work on it with Kirby was an added bonus.
I’d often run
into Jack while
going into H-B to pick up work. He’d always have a ready grin on his face when
we met and would say things like, “I can’t believe I got paid this much money
to do this work!”
I’d get the King’s designs after
they’d been approved by our bosses.
Jack’s drawings had to be simplified
into animation more so than, say,
Alex Toth’s, who knew animation a
2 little bit better than Kirby did (having
done it longer), but Kirby’s stuff was
excellent, such as these examples
from the Space-Stars episode “The
Starfly,” which first aired September
19, 1981 on NBC-TV.
12
PLATE 5: Blip, the Space
5
Monkey, runs away
from Space Ghost and
lands on “The Planet of the Space Monkeys” (a different episode, which first aired
October 24, 1981). These warrior apes were servants of the main villain of the entire
series, Uglor. (An anecdote: “The Planet of the Space Monkeys” had cities composed of
typical, giant hollowed-out trees. Well, by the time I got through with them, the tree-city
backgrounds looked more like ‘Habitat’, the tree-city from Kirby’s Jimmy Olsen run
[#133-134] where the Outsiders lived. So, even when Jack wasn’t trying to influence
something, he was influencing it. Cool, huh?)
PLATE 6: There
were good apes
6 and bad apes on
this planet. The
gorilla at the far
right was a
priest. (I named
him Judas. “Judas
Priest,” get it?)
Jack not
only worked on
the Space Ghost
segments (eight
minutes long) of
the hour-long
Space-Stars series
(Hanna-Barbera,
1980-81), but he
contributed to the Herculoids, Teen Force, and Astro and the Space Mutts series as well. (He
had warriors of all types on his mind!) This is a peek into one of the many worlds Jack
envisioned, and now you’re privy to it, too. ★
(left) While not done for Space Ghost, Jack did monkey around with this unused concept for
the galactic group “Gavillan’s Gorillas” around the same time, in 1980.
13
hen representing the heroic human form, most The common way of drawing a cylindrical shape in
14
Kirby’s
stress. But rather than draw a muscle that is anatomically correct, Let’s try another example.
Kirby’s drawing where light and shade may appear most powerfully Below is a powerful leg drawn for
on the form. the cover of Fantastic Four #65 (right).
(I’m not saying Kirby is slavishly reproducing any of this—just that Next to it is another Buscema drawing,
this may be a basis for what he’s doing. As with his figure proportions, he’s of a leg in the same position (from Sub-
exaggerating and beefing things up at every turn.) Mariner #5, page 19, shown below).
Next to that are diagrams of the termi-
Here’s an example. nators and highlights on Buscema’s
Below left is an outstretched arm drawn by John Buscema for more ‘anatomically correct’ leg.
Sub-Mariner #5, page 18. As always, Buscema was brilliant at styl- Notice, again, how those termina-
ized anatomy. Next to it are diagrams of the upper terminator lines tors and highlights are roughly com-
(shown in blue) and where highlights would approximately be bined to give what Kirby drew; some
(shown in red) on that arm. Below that is virtually the same arm ignored, others extended. Many super-
position that Kirby drew for the Thor poster done for Marvelmania hero artists would have drawn a calf
(previous page), and used most recently on the cover of Collected Jack muscle on the lower leg for Ronan, as
Kirby Collector, Volume 3. Buscema has done for Namor, even
Notice how the lines on Kirby’s arm are somewhere near a com- though such anatomy would never be
bination of the terminators and highlights we find on the more visible on an armored figure. Kirby did-
‘anatomically correct’ arm by Buscema. n’t draw that. Instead, he put a powerful
curved line there to show the form of
the lower leg instead. It not only repre-
sents shine, but gives the leg a solid
appearance, which is why these sort of
lines appear even when there would be little ‘shine’ per se.
I believe this ‘system’ Kirby used is part of the reason why his
figures, though often appearing anatomically insane, have a power
and solidity that others often don’t have. He’s creating a solid form,
not just representing muscles. And it is why it is often impossible to
16
A couple more examples at
right (Fantastic Four #65, page 17,
courtesy of the Jack Kirby
Museum’s Kirby Digital Archive).
Panel 3—Ronan’s legs. The
upper leg has the form-giving
terminator lines on the underside,
another line on the lower leg
suggesting the part closest to us,
then the feathered line at the top
where the shine would be.
His other leg is similar, except
that the shine line is not feathered
but solid. All the lines suggest
light and form, rather than direct
anatomy.
Kirby often drew so fast that
unnecessary lines appear. On the
lower calf, there is the feathered
shine on the left, then a line at the
closest point to us, then another
long wavy line. Then there’s a
form-giving terminator line on the
right. Either one of those two
middle lines, it seems to me, could
be eliminated with no detriment to
the strength of the figure.
Back to Panel 1: Ronan’s leg
has a heavy terminator line on the
underside, another line at the
point of the cylindrical leg closest
to us, then a lighter shine line
above. On many figures, those
two lines are reversed—they are
there, not to show anatomy, but to
suggest form.
On the lower leg there is a
form-giving line at the back of the
calf. The slash through the knee to
the ankle is harder to understand.
It is lines like this that make such
‘analysis’ difficult. Perhaps it shows
that my understanding is wrong?
Or is it, as I would suggest, just a
quick line with little thought?
Maybe if Kirby were to do it again,
the line would be bowed more to
the right, following the form more
precisely.
But hopefully my idea is
clear—I believe the lines are
mostly suggestive of highlights
and terminator lines, there to give
solid form to a two-dimensional
drawing. Also, notice that on many of Jack’s Golden Age characters,
Two final notes: those long black slashes appear on legs and thighs, but when he
When Kirby’s characters are clothed more loosely, form/shape inked himself, often there was added shading between the slash and
is shown by clothing pull lines and wrinkles, and there is a signifi- the outline. This adds weight to the suggestion that the slash is not
cant decrease in the use of these slash lines. The Fantastic Four fig- simply an anatomy line, but a terminator line of where shadow
ures were usually defined by Kirby by the wrinkle marks on their meets light. When no longer inking, or wanting an inking style
bodies. Apparently, Kirby thought those wrinkles gave enough solid- which had a lot of cross hatching (‘hay’ as Joe Simon put it), the
ity to their form, making his other marks unnecessary. When figures terminator line was kept, with the shading, more often than not,
had normal clothing and overalls on, he defined their forms by being deleted.
dynamic stretch lines and folds and wrinkles. So that’s how I’ve come to see it. Any other ideas out there? ★
17
Gallery
Commentary by
Shane Foley
18
19
(pages 20-21)
Exhibits 2a and 2b:
Kamandi #13, page
13, and Jimmy Olsen
#147, page 4.
(pages 22-23) Exhibits 3a and 3b: Kamandi #19, page 1, and Jimmy Olsen #143, page 12.
Now c’mon, John. Kirby put gangsters in everything he did. It’s only because the OMAC and Devil Dinosaur series were cut short that there
weren’t gangsters there too. Bzzzt! Court rules evidence inadmissible! (Note how in the Olsen page Kirby makes even a featureless wooden
corridor look exotic and interesting. And when it’s followed by a spectacular Kirby bomb it becomes a terrific page. Nice gangsters too!)
20
21
Gangsters!
22
23
Air Superiority!
24
(pages 24-25) Exhibits
4a and 4b: Kamandi #22,
cover and Olsen #148,
page 19.
Kamandi’s evidence for
‘air superiority’ is an
underwater scene? Well,
I suppose later in the
story the Red Baron did
actually fly! (Aren’t
Kirby’s plexi-glass
shields/windows/view
ports great? Often they
are actually way too
small and the perspective
is totally wrong—but
they are so effective.)
Now on the Olsen page, we
see real air superiority!
That Whiz Wagon design
is superb! How I wish I
had bought the first
Olsen issue with it (#133)
off the newsstand and
felt the adrenalin rush
from the shock!
But this is a similarity to
Kamandi? Sorry, John,
you are not doing well!
26
27
(pages 28-29)
Exhibits 6a and 6b:
Kamandi #3, page 8
and Olsen #145,
page 19.
No comment
needed for Kamandi,
since he met more
intelligent apes then
Tarzan did! (Okay,
one comment. Look
at that fantastic ape
face in panel 3!
Hasn’t Jack got so
much power and
emotion in it?
Wonderful!)
28
29
(pages 30-31)
Exhibits 7a and
7b: Kamandi #6,
page 1 and Olsen
#146, page 6.
Flower! You
chose Flower as
a ‘voluptuous
woman’? Very
feminine—yes.
But voluptuous?
You chose the
one female that
Kirby created who
was definitely
meant to be not
voluptuous?
(Well—apart from
Agatha Harkness.)
I quote a response
in the Kamandi
#11 letter column:
Voluptuous Women?!
30
“A few letters criticized the way Flower’s anatomy was displayed (or lack of same)…(snip)...Jack drew it that way because that’s the way some girls at age 15 look”.
Flower was (at 15 anyway) very different compared to Olsen’s Terry Dean, who, as we see on this page, was certainly voluptuous. Bzzzt! Sorry John, you failed
miserably. There’s no previously unknown Kirby conspiracy here. Pity. Thanks for the submissions though. Great art.
(Pam!! John had too much Kirby input again! Pa-a-a-a-a-m!!)
31
Barry Forshaw
Obscura
we also have some delightful material
from such books as Stuntman and
A regular
column focusing Boys’ Ranch, which over and over
on Kirby’s least again demonstrate the prodigal imagi-
known work, nation (and impeccable design sense) of King Kirby. And
by Barry Forshaw there is a bonus in this arm-straining volume; also included
is some of the work from the other talents in the Simon and
THE ART OF THE Kirby studio, such as Bill Draut and the matchless Al
Barry Forshaw is the SIMON AND Williamson, much renowned for his science-fiction work for
author of British Gothic KIRBY STUDIO: A EC Comics. Some might argue that Kirby’s work is best seen
Cinema and The Rough in the full-colour representations for which it was always
Guide to Crime Fiction DEFINITIVE
ultimately created, but the most dedicated followers of the
(available from COLLECTION artist will want to see this highly collectable volume, which is
Amazon) and the editor For those of us (such as this writer)
of Crime Time a reminder—if reminder is required—that in the whole che-
who have tested our financial resources
(www.crimetime.co.uk). quered history of comics, there was no one like Jack Kirby.
He lives in London. over the years by collecting the highly
distinctive comics work of Joe Simon and
Jack Kirby, the current embarrassment of
riches provokes a wry smile on our lips—all
those glorious books that we spent money (and
years) collecting are now readily available in hand-
some, fully restored reprint editions, usually between
hard covers and showcasing the work of the greatest
illustrator in comics in something close to Jack Kirby’s
original vision. But while the ongoing Simon & Kirby
Library series from the publisher Titan have made avail-
able such science-fiction titles as Race for the Moon and
The Art of the Simon
bizarre horror classics from Black Magic, they have
And Kirby Studio is
available now. At right is always been in something approximating the finished
an example of the work as they appeared in the original books—in other
reproduction you’ll find words, fully colored (usually, in fact, re-colorings by such
in the book—in this talented craftsmen as Harry Mendryk). But the American
case Double Life of
Private Strong #1 (1959) publisher Abrams, celebrated for its deluxe fine art books
from Joe Simon’s files. as well as its ventures into popular culture, has attempt-
(next page) To read from ed something special in this massive, oversized volume
the original, or the (coming in at nearly 400 pages); The Art of the Simon
Archive Edition? You and Kirby Studio reproduces much of the original pen-
decide! and-brush artwork, sans colouring and closer to the size
at which the duo originally
worked. While the publisher of
The Jack Kirby Collector, John
Morrow, has made a great deal of
original Kirby artwork available to
readers (and kudos to him for
that), there is much here—under
the stewardship of Kirby Expert
Emeritus Mark Evanier and Joe
Simon’s son Jim—that Kirby
And it’s safe to say that there will never be anyone like him
aficionados will not have seen—and
in the future. (The Art of the Simon and Kirby Studio is pub-
be assured that it is a veritable feast
lished by Abrams; ISBN: 9781419711602)
for the eyes.
INTRODUCING THE MEN LIVING
ADDED
ON BORROWED TIME
VALUE Here’s an esoteric debate which only those who care
The book includes many complete
about comic books of an earlier era will be concerned
Kirby classics from such books as the
with—the outside world would scratch its collective head in
aforementioned Race for the Moon
wonderment at the following issue. Here’s the debate: you
(the all-too-short run of which is a
possess the original issues of DC Comics’ Showcase which
particular favourite of this writer). But
featured Jack Kirby’s death-defying Challengers of the
32
Unknown, along with the two DC Archive Editions that collected the books. than anyone—although in so doing, he made the books as much
So… when a few years have elapsed since your last reading and the sto- Wood efforts as Kirby efforts; nothing wrong with that where this writer
ries have grown a bit hazy in your memory, which do you read? The fragile is concerned).
original books or the hardcover Archive reprints? The latter, of course, are I realized that although I’ve covered some Wally Wood Challengers
on glossy, quality paper and recolored, with none of the printing imperfec- issues for this column, I’ve never touched on the books which introduced
tions that blemished the original books—such as shifts in the colour regis- the team. And all the astonishing Kirby design sense and figure dynamism
tration (anybody who collects Mort Weisinger-era Superman will be well that makes Kirby’s work so memorable is on display here, starting from
aware that either the red or the blue of the Man of Steel’s costume would the very first cover for Showcase #6, in which Challenger Ace Morgan
almost invariably be shifted an iota, leaving a white blank space exposing smashes open a gigantic egg from which emerges a grotesque monster’s
his midriff or the area above his boots; one hoped that Kryptonians weren’t arm. The book-length story that follows, “The Secrets of the Sorcerer’s Box”
troubled by draughts). And the colours in the new Challengers Archive has the complexity and muscular narrative which distinguished all these
Editions positively leap off the page—but most importantly, all of the early Kirby efforts, and the writing is
matchless line work of Jack Kirby (or at least of his various inkers) is crystal ingenious (credited here to Dave
clear and pin-prick Wood, although as Kirbyites know
sharp—so why would there is some dispute about the
anyone want to read actual authorship—were Kirby
anything other than and Simon involved, as both
the deluxe reprint? claimed?).
What’s more, for some
people the reprint is IN-YOUR-FACE
all that they could SPLASH PANELS
afford to possess, The distinguishing aspects of
given the price of the many of these books are (story
highly collectable art apart) the phenomenal Kirby
original books— my splash panels. Interestingly, the
own collection of first chapter showing the
them took a while to Challengers for the first time is
compile, and they are nothing out of the ordinary, but
not in the best condi- in Chapter 2, “Dragon Seed”,
tion. they have a gigantic red stone
But here’s the rea- creature rising from the waves
son why one should and overturning boats—clas-
read the originals (if sic Kirby, as is the splash
one has to make that panel for Chapter 3, “The Freezing
case). The bright Sun”, which has a fireball-like apparition freezing the challengers
poster colours of the (interestingly, this is a clear case of the Archive Edition winning over the
reprints allow for very little nuance (despite the original, as the ‘bleedout’ effect of the colour in the recolored hardcover is
greater sophistication of the new medium), and everything has the flat, far more effective).
uniform impact of a Manga strip (and Manga strips are not noted for their Similarly striking is the second Showcase appearance of the
nuance). The original books utilised—perforce—softer colours which were Challengers in issue #7 with a gigantic walking computer, Ultivac, shown
often more natural. Ah, but wait! You have to put up with the imperfections carrying June Robbins (her debut in this issue, and the female Challenger
of the printing of the day and the poor quality paper that was used. In fact, is treated with the customary surprise that a woman could hold down a
the people behind recent hardback reprints—such as the wonderful series job as a scientist—but let’s not blame Jack Kirby for that). The splash for
of Simon & Kirby libraries from Titan—have become aware of this prob- this story, with the menacing computer smashing through a door as the
lem, and now routinely utilise matt, non-glossy paper to get a closer Challengers variously cling to it or shoot at it, is quintessential Kirby, and
approximation of the original books, while retaining the virtues of an by the time of issue #11, The King is firmly on a roll, even before Wally
enlarged size and crystal-clear printing. Wood’s appearance as inker. Take the cover, in which the Challengers
shrink back from an exploding model of the planet Earth while a bizarre,
SO—ORIGINAL OR ARCHIVE EDITION? spindly orange-skinned alien clutches its fist in the foreground: it’s Kirby
All of the above is a prelude to saying that I had something of a problem design at its most kinetic, and interestingly reminiscent of such Julius
when I realized it was time for me to read Jack Kirby’s run on Challengers Schwartz science-fiction books of the era as pre-Adam Strange Mystery in
of the Unknown again. Do I re-read the original books—the four issues of Space in which Gil Kane showed the Earth being subjected to some cosmic
Showcase in which the team had a try-out plus the Kirby-drawn issue of indignity. Inking here is Bruno Premiani, who imposes his own personality
the Challengers magazine before Bob Brown took over on art chores? Or to such an extent that some panels look like his own work—whereas
do I read the glossy DC Archive Editions which—in fact—I’ve never read? Wally Wood always allowed Kirby’s personality to shine through. But there
Having considered the options, I finally decided on the latter—the reprint are wonderful things here, such as the splash in which the Challengers
books—despite my arguments against doing this detailed above. The rea- and towering alien adversaries are seen floating down a gravity-free
son? My decision was based on the fact that this was, finally, the best way corridor. And it’s seen from above—another example of Kirby’s instinctively
to appreciate the actual artwork. And reading the first two Showcase finding the exact angle to show a scene. Seen from the side, it would not
issues (#6 and 7) was a revelation even though Roz Kirby and Marvin have had the sense of a vertiginous drop.
Stein’s inking for the first two issues, and Bruno Premiani’s inking for So far, I’ve only re-read these three issues; but they have made up my
Showcase #11 only hint at the exquisitely detailed glories which Wally mind. I think I can now unequivocally say to those who don’t have the
Wood was to unleash when he took over the inking of the book and took it original books—don’t worry about my strictures in the first paragraph;
to stratospheric heights (I’m prepared to bet that the inkers named above these handsome Archive Editions are the perfect way to read them. ★
would have been happy to concede that Wood finessed Kirby’s art better
33
www.kirbymuseum.org
Kirby @
Angoulême!
We were thrilled to
be asked to participate
in a Jack Kirby show at
the Angoulême comics
festival in France this
past January. Frédéric
Manzano pulled
together a great display
of Kirby pieces—many
Newsletter from our Original Art
Digital Archive—
and Jean Depelley con-
tributed a fine interpretation of Kirby’s life, work, and
career. Trustees Rand Hoppe and Tom Kraft attended the
festival, spending time with such Franco-Kirbyphiles
as Jean-Yves Mitton, Reed Man, and Jean Marie Arnon.
Other luminaries attending were Paul Gravett, Sofía
Carlota Rodríguez Eguren, and the folks from Neofelis (above, L to R) Rand Hoppe, Frédéric Manzano, Tom Kraft, and Jean Depelley
Editions (publisher of Jean Depelley’s massive two- at the Jack Kirby: King of Comics display at Angoulême.
volume French Kirby biography) and the folks from (below) The entrance to the show.
Album Comics (publisher of Kirby’s DC work in France, who co-sponsored the exhibit).
The Museum, once again, thanks all the collectors and dealers who have allowed us to scan their Kirby original art—it made a wonderful show
like this happen! The show may also travel within Europe, so don’t be surprised if it is mounted in Brussels, Berlin, or Barcelona!
TJKC Edition
Spring 2015
The Jack Kirby Museum
and Research Center is
organized exclusively
for educational
purposes; more
specifically, to
promote and encourage
the study, understand-
ing, preservation and
appreciation of the
work of Jack Kirby by:
• illustrating the
scope of Kirby’s
multi-faceted career,
• communicating
the stories,
inspirations and
influences of Have you seen...
Jack Kirby, ...Abrams Books’ The Art of the Simon & Kirby Studio? Mark Evanier, editor Charlie Kochman, and the Simon & Kirby estates pulled together a
• celebrating the life great book. Again, scans from our Original Art Digital Archive were used to help the project along. It’s a great book!
of Jack Kirby and his
creations, and
• building under-
We thank our new and returning members
standing of comic for their support: Annual Memberships
books and comic Craig Peters, Steve Coates, Antonio Iriarte, Don Rhoden,
book creators. Laura Knechtel, Wade Stewart, Alex Adorno, Bernard Brannigan, with one of these posters: $40*
To this end, the Russell Payne, Tom Kraft, Paul Gleave, Michael Ryan, Richard
Museum will sponsor Pineros, Andrew Bonia, Christopher Harder, Christopher Horan,
and otherwise support
study, teaching, Levi Bagwell, Christopher Boyko, Daniel Reid, Steve McFarland,
conferences, Glenn Garry, Tom Brevoort, Melvin Shelton, Patrick Markee, Bill
discussion groups, Kruse, Andrew Kolasko, Dusty Miller, Glen Brunswick, William
exhibitions, displays,
publications and Turner, Wendell Lowder, Steven Sherman, Kris Reiss, Corrina
cinematic, theatrical Dejong, Kevin Goring, Carlos Borrico, Richard Mancini, and Jung
or multimedia Hoon Kim. Captain America—23” x 29” Strange Tales—23” x 29”
productions. 1941 Captain America—14” x 23” Super Powers—17” x 22” color
Jack Kirby Museum & For their help with our programs, we’d like to with one of these posters: $50*
Research Center thank:
PO Box 5236
Hoboken, NJ 07030 USA
Richard Howell, Tod Seisser, Bechara Maalouf, Lisa
Telephone: (201) 963-4383 Rigoux-Hoppe, Bev Hoppe, Scott Dunbier, Albert Moy,
Mike Burkey, Hans Kosenkranius, Anthony Snyder, Frank Giella,
Kat Kraft, Mike Thibodeaux, Pete Koch, John Plauche,
Thanks to the Kirby Estate Srihari Naidu, and Scott Eder.
for their continued support!
All characters TM © their respective
*Please add $10 for memberships outside the US,
owners. to cover additional postage costs. Posters come
Marvel—14” x 23” Galactic Head— Incan Visitation—24” x 18” color
34
“as-is” and may not be in mint condition. 18” x 20” color
34
Mark Evanier
Jack F.A.Q.s
A column of Frequently Asked Questions about Kirby
disclosure, my attorney,
2014 Jack Kirby Tribute Panel
Held at 10:00am on Sunday, July 27, 2014 at Comic-Con
and he’s the attorney for
Lisa Kirby, and what’s the
International: San Diego. Moderated by Mark Evanier, and official title of this? It’s the
featuring Len Wein, Scott Shaw!, Charles Kochman, and Rosalind Kirby...
Paul S. Levine. Transcribed by Jon Knutson, edited by John PAUL S. LEVINE: The Rosalind Kirby Family Trust.
Morrow and copyedited Mark Evanier. Photos by Chris Ng.
MARK: This is Mr. Paul Levine. (applause) We will be
MARK EVANIER: joined by Len Wein, who is—I’ve never heard of this
I’m Mark Evanier. happening before—late! (laughter) One of the things I
This is the panel I like about this panel is that we have here a lot of Jack
look forward to Kirby fans. They’re a smarter, cleverer batch of people,
the most at this and I’m pleased that a lot of you keep carrying the torch
convention every for Jack. Seated somewhere down here is John Morrow
year, because of The Jack Kirby Collector. (applause) There’s Rand Hoppe,
this is the closest who’s running the Jack Kirby Museum. (applause) There’s
I can come these Tom Kraft, who’s also running the website What If
days to spend- Kirby.com and works on the Kirby Museum with Rand.
ing time with a A few years ago on this panel, I said, “Everything
man named Jack ever did that can be reprinted will be reprinted.”
Jack Kirby. It’s The other day, somebody calculated that the first ten
been 20 years issues of The Fantastic Four have now been reprinted 85
since we lost times in this country. I don’t know if that counts digital,
Jack, and as which would probably be another ten times right there.
I’ve said Jack’s work had a lasting quality, and on two levels—
before many first there was just those wonderful pages he worked on
times, there himself, and then how his work inspired other people to
isn’t a day I don’t do new series based on his characters and his concepts.
think of him, quote him, get asked about him, find They keep coming up, they keep coming out, and I
In lieu of Mark’s regular myself figuring out something that years ago, I didn’t don’t know any other creator in comics who had that
column this issue, we understand, and now I go, “Oh, that’s what he meant.” kind of track record and influence. I sometimes run into
proudly present his
2014 Kirby Tribute We’re going to talk about Jack for a while today. We will people who say, “Oh, I like the way John Buscema drew
Panel, featuring (below, not be discussing current legal matters. We’re going to the Silver Surfer more than Jack Kirby,” or, “I like some-
l to r) Mark, Len Wein, talk about Jack and his work. I’ve asked to join me here body else’s X-Men more than Jack’s X-Men.” Okay, fine.
Scott Shaw!, Paul a couple of people who knew Jack, and helped him out I don’t even have any interest in those arguments. The
Levine, and Charlie
Kochman.
over the years. This is my friend, Mr. Scott Shaw, thing that people sometimes don’t get is that John
ladies and gentlemen. (applause) On the far end is the Buscema, as brilliant and talented as he was, did not
publisher... not the publisher, what’s your title there? have the same job description that Jack assumed for
(above) Kirby is inter-
viewed by an unknown
himself. Jack’s job description was not filling pages with
CHARLIE KOCHMAN: Editorial director. beautiful drawings. Jack’s self-appointed job description
journalist at a mid-
1970s San Diego MARK: Editorial director of Harry N. Abrams Books, was always, “I’ve got to take comics to the next level.
Comic-Con. Photo by the company that published the Jack Kirby book I I’ve got to invent something brand new to build an
Shel Dorf. did a couple of years ago. This is Mr. Charles Kochman. empire on.” And he did it over and over again through-
(applause) The gentlemen between them is, full out his career, not always successfully... sometimes he
35
but thanks to Rand Hoppe and the Kirby Museum, and
Tom Kraft and everybody who generously supplemented
pages and stories, this is the book, it’s coming out in
October, it’s got commentary, Introduction by Mark, and
notes, and Jim Simon wrote a beautiful Afterword, sort of
talking about his dad, and talking about Joe and Jack.
MARK: And this is not just art by Simon & Kirby, we also
cover people like Bill Draut, and Joe Albistur, and Doug
Wildey, there’s a couple of Doug Wildey stories in there,
and Leonard Starr, Al Williamson, Mort Meskin are rep-
resented. We have this story that was in Joe Simon’s
archives. It was a Mort Meskin story called... it’s a horror
story, it’s kind of a grisly horror story.
CHARLIE: “Credit and Loss.”
MARK: “Credit and Loss,” and we have this story, and it’s
a beautiful story, it’s the best example we have of Meskin’s
work. But I said to Charlie, “This isn’t really a Simon &
Kirby story. This was done for one of Harvey’s horror comics
that Joe and Jack had nothing to do with.” And Charlie
said, “It was in Joe’s house, Joe had the original art. Doesn’t
that mean he had something to do with it?” So, I now had
this moral dilemma: do I put this in as the best example
we have of Mort Meskin work, or do I keep the book true
to Simon & Kirby, because it’s not a Simon & Kirby story?
I swear to you, this is true. I’m sitting there thinking about
it, and the phone rings. It’s Sid Jacobson, who was the edi-
tor of Harvey at the time. He called me up and said, “Can
you arrange for me to have a room for a panel? I’ve got
this new project I’m doing,” and I said, “I’ll arrange it if
you can answer a question for me, Sid. Do you remember
this story by Mort Meskin? Why would that artwork have
been in Joe Simon’s collection?” He said, “Give me the
issue number, I’ll look it up, and call you back.” He calls
me up ten minutes later, and says, “Oh, we bought that
story from Simon & Kirby.” (laughter) And that’s all he
Jack’s cover for the fanzine Aurora #4, edited by a young Len Wein. The October 1963 cover date knew. He was sure it came from Joe and Jack. Possibly it’s
means that Kirby drew this about the time Captain America got a try-out in Strange Tales #114 (which
would’ve come out around September 1963), and before he officially returned in Avengers #4 in 1964.
a story that they bought for Black Magic, and maybe they
thought it was a little too grisly for Black Magic, so they
was sabotaged, sometimes he was ahead of himself, sometimes he shunted it off on Harvey—Harvey was down the hall from
had some projects that maybe weren’t as good as others, but he did where they were working at that point. One of the reasons Sid knew
it more often than anyone else in comics, in terms of revolutionizing he didn’t commission that story was, he never met Mort Meskin in
and spotting something brand-new in comics. It always seemed to his life. So he knew it had to come from Joe for that reason alone. That
come from Jack. And it’s not a coincidence, I think, that comics took story is in there, I don’t think in the notes I even explained that.
an enormous downturn in sales right after Jack died. It was like he CHARLIE: In your blog, you gave that story.
left and took the business with him for a while.
I want to talk a little bit about upcoming Kirby projects. I’m MARK: Oh, I did. That
going to start with Charles. Charlie, tell us about this book that’s story is in there, I’m very
coming out. pleased that we’ve got it.
It’s a neat book, and it
CHARLIE: This is a dummy for the book, it’s 384 pages, and it’s called was put together lovingly
The Art of the Simon & Kirby Studio, and thanks to Mark Evanier, this by Charlie and his staff,
book will be coming out in October 2014. The genesis of this was, and I thank all the people
when Mark had done his Kirby: King of Comics book, we had a bunch that contributed artwork
of Fighting American pages that were shot off the original art. And to that.
when I went to drop the book off at Joe Simon’s house—coinciden- Does anyone else in
tally, he lived on the same block I lived on in Manhattan—he was the room have a Jack
looking through this book, and saw this Fighting American page and Kirby project? Barry?
suggested we do a book of all original art. He wanted to do a book that This is Barry Ira Geller,
was a reading book, complete stories, unpublished stories, covers, by the way, this is the
alternate covers, that would be in this format. This was before I even person responsible for
got the company started doing books of original art, and what’s the Lord of Light.
wonderful about this, again, it’s a reading book, and a chance to
show Joe and Jack as artists, and the people who were in the studio. BARRY: It’s been a full year
So, we put this together. Joe had thousands of pages of original art, since the announcement,
36
promoting the true Argo story. Last October, I was at ComicFest, CLAYTON MOORE: Down at the
again, giving a whole panel just on the creation of those prints when exhibit hall, there’s a new book at
I worked with Jack. A year has passed now, Tom Kraft has completed Jackie Estrada’s table, it’s called
two-thirds of a total digital reconstruction of the original negatives Comic Book People. It has pho-
that I made before I took the prints to Sotheby’s. So, that’s going to tographs of Jack and Roz dancing
be available now in two different sets, and at LordofLight.com, anyone at your party, and of the Inkpot
can buy that. But there’s a second announcement: I just signed a Awards, the Eisner Awards, those
deal with Heavy Metal Productions to take those prints and turn are in the book. Photographs like
them into variants. There’s a re-imagination by a real top artist, that are in the book.
Chris Burnham, who’s doing Batman, and that’s probably going to
MARK: Thank you. How many
come out in the next two or three months. Again, it’s taking Jack’s
people here were at that party?
work—it’s his only, I feel, architectural work, that was for sets; it was
©Jackie Estrada
Scott designed the cake for it.
for a theme park—into reality. I think I said that last year. The word
just gets out more and more that people are recognizing that that SCOTT SHAW!: I have that on my
happened, and it makes me so happy. resumé.
MARK: Thank you, Barry. (applause) Does anyone else have an MARK: Was it the 70th birthday, I think? We had a surprise party
announcement of that sort? Good, let’s move on. Clayton? for Jack at this comic convention that year, and it was kind of put
together sloppily, because I didn’t know how
to put together a party. I can’t put together a
lawn chair. We decided to have a party, and I
rented a room at the old Hotel San Diego,
which they tore down a few years ago in the
name of civic improvement. It was the kind
of hotel where people would wipe their feet
when they left the hotel so they wouldn’t
track up downtown San Diego. (laughter) We
rented this big room, and we snuck this flyer
out to different people, it said, “You’re invited
to the party, give Mark Evanier money
towards defraying the costs of the party.” I
walked around the San Diego Convention
that year, and people were just handing me
money. I would just say, “Thank you, thank
you,” and stuff money into my pockets. I got
fives and tens and twenties left and right. The
party was Saturday night. Friday night, Len
Wein and I were at a party at the Holiday Inn
down by the water, which was maybe a mile
from where we were staying at the convention,
and the only way to get back that night was
walking, for some reason. People were handing
me money at the party, and Len and I said,
“We’re going to walk back.” This is at 3:00
am, and we were walking back through
downtown San Diego, which is not what it is
now. There were tattoo parlors, and strip
joints, and a lot of sailors on shore leave, and
women who were catering to them in the
middle of the night, and I’m walking through
downtown San Diego with Len, with about
$4,000 in cash in my pocket in fives and tens!
(laughter) And that night, if somebody had
mugged us, he would’ve hit the jackpot, he
would not have believed how much cash I
had on me. The next morning, which was
Saturday morning, I took it all to a bank, and
I turned it into a money order, and I just was
standing there putting fives and tens on the
counter, and people were looking at me like,
“What kind of business are you in?” (laughter)
And we had that lovely party that night, and
when Jack came in, it was one of those
moments you’d never forget. We had hired a
For America’s 200th birthday, Kirby created this Colonial Cap pin-up.
Pencils from the Captain America’s Bicentennial Battles Treasury Edition.
band, we found this guy with a Hawaiian
37
three-piece band that played 1940s songs, because it
was for Jack and Roz. Jack and Roz were dancing. And
somebody came up to me and asked, “Why do you
have this square, awful band? You should have rock
here, we want to dance.” And about 50 people jumped
on him, screaming, “This is Jack’s party, this is his
music!” And he said, “Oh, I’m sorry, I’m sorry.” And
Jack and Roz had the best time. Jack went around and I
think he kissed everybody at the party, men and
women both, and he was just so happy that night. It
was one of those great memories I have of the two of
them. They just had a great time that night.
SCOTT: Can I just tell a short story about another
party? I believe this also was at a birthday party that
was put on by a company that designs theme parks,
and they had it at the Smokehouse, which was right
there in Burbank, across from where UPA used to be,
and they had a lot of people there: Neal Adams, of
course Mark was there, Steve Sherman... Dave Stevens
was there, Paul Power, just everybody in town that
loved Jack. And I’d heard that they were going to hire a
stripper for Jack. And I told the guys in charge, “That
doesn’t seem like a good idea.” I was probably being a
little too cautious, but the last thing I wanted to do was
see Jack embarrassed in front of everybody. Well, pre-
sentations came and went, and it was like a roast where
nobody was putting Jack down. Finally, here comes
Wonder Woman in, she’s not sleazy at all, she’s probably
a college girl, and came in, and took her top off, and
Jack reacted... he wasn’t embarrassed in the slightest,
but like Jack Kirby was, he also accepted this topless
Wonder Woman with dignity! In fact, he sounded like
he was accepting an award! (laughter) And he said,
“Well, you’re a beautiful young woman, and I certainly
appreciate this gesture,” he was looking her right in the
eye the whole time! (laughter) And then after things
had kind of calmed down, and she’d put her Wonder
Bra back on, and I asked Roz, I said, “Roz, I hope that
wasn’t offensive to you.” And she said, “Are you kidding?
When we get home, I’m going to take one of those photos of Jack thousands of dollars in cash on me, and you were my bodyguard.
with Wonder Boobs and I’m just going to paste a photo of my head LEN WEIN: Oh, yeah. If somebody had tried to mug us, you
on her body.” (laughter) So that, to me, was something that could’ve would’ve turned around, and I probably would’ve been back in
gone terribly wrong. The Kirbys just took it in stride according to Pittsburgh! (laughter)
their personalities, it was great.
MARK: You were never in Pittsburgh! (laughter) We’re just going to
MARK: And tell stories about Jack. You were on this panel a long time ago, and I
we are joined think you told that story then. I want you to tell the one about Jack’s
by Mr. Len beard.
Wein, ladies
and gentlemen! LEN: Oh, God. I met Jack when I was 13. It was a long progression of
(applause) I professionals trying to get rid of me and Marv Wolfman. It turned
talked about out my aunt lived next door to Mike Sekowsky, and we visited
you in your Mike—this was before fandom, this was back in the early days of...
absence. I “What the hell are you doing here?”
told the story MARK: How old are you in this story?
about us
having to walk LEN: Probably 12 when it starts. And then, to get rid of us, Mike
back, the sent me to meet Joe Giella, Frank Giacoia, and at that point, Frank
year of Jack’s was saying to me, “Meet Jack!” So Marv and I biked over to Jack’s
birthday house one Saturday afternoon, no appointment, just, “Hi, we’re kids,
party, through and we love your work,” and the others are passing us on to other
downtown people. We spent Saturday afternoons at their house, at least once a
San Diego month, watching Jack create universes as Roz fed us milk and cookies;
when I had it was really lovely. Because we had become friends for many years,
1975 photo of Kirby with Len Wein at Comic-Con. all those when I was 17, I had a very bad illness, I was in the hospital for
38
several weeks, and Jack and Roz decided to come visit me, which was MARK: Sergio, when he was just married to Charlene first, was shaving
wonderful of them. But Jack had decided for the first time in his life one day, and she said, “You know, I’ve never seen you without the
to grow a beard. It was the late ’60s, hippie era, all of that, and he mustache.” He goes, “Oh, okay.” He takes the mustache off, and
said, “I’m going to have a beard, I’m going to see what I look like in a Charlene goes, “Aaaggghh!” And she wouldn’t let him touch her until
beard.” It was a two-week growth probably at that point, and if any- it grew back. (laughter)
body’s seen a two-week growth of anybody’s beard, except an Italian,
SCOTT: Sergio needs to keep it shaved, but have a false one made,
it looks scraggly and horrible. Jack said, “All right, let’s go to the
because... I always sit next to him at the exhibit hall, and that poor man,
hospital,” and Roz looked at him and said, “We’re not leaving the
when he has to go to the bathroom, he’s stopped 40 times to get 100
house until you shave off that beard and look like a respectable
yards to the bathroom. But if he could just take that mustache off,
person again.” And so Jack did, he shaved the beard off, and came to
nobody would know him, and he wouldn’t have to worry about peeing
visit me, and Jack told me the story, and said, “So, you owe me one
himself. (laughter) He could commit a crime, and no one would ever
beard sometime.” (laughter) “I want the beard back!”
catch him!
MARK: So then, years later, you were visiting me when you were still
MARK: Len, you’ve worked on an awful lot of Jack’s characters at times.
living in the east, and Jack was in the hospital.
Talk a bit for a moment how, whenever you were assigned to write a
LEN: Yes, right. Jack Kirby character, what the value was, apart from the fact that he
gave you a lot of neat things to play with—about the inspiration,
MARK: And I’m driving you to the airport, and I suddenly said, “Do
and what you learned from Jack, maybe.
you want to go visit Jack in the hospital and shave your beard off?”
Do you remember this? LEN: It was always intimidating to work on one of Jack’s characters,
because they’re Jack’s characters. I think possibly my greatest contri-
bution to anything of Jack’s was, I actually designed the color schemes
for both the Demon at DC and Ikaris of the Eternals. In the case of
the Demon, I was walking through production at DC with Jack
Adler, who was one of the great colorists... Jack [Kirby] sometimes
did and sometimes didn’t have color schemes for his characters, and
when he did they were flamboyant, there was a lot of color. And I
guess Jack Adler was following Jack Kirby for inspiration, and I
walked by, there were 50 colors on this really simple character, and I
said, “Really?” That’s all I said. He said, “Can you do any better?” I
said, “I don’t know that I can do any worse.” So that’s how the
Demon got his colors.
(left) Jack’s original flamboyant color scheme for Mister Miracle. MARK: Jack Adler hated Jack [Kirby’s] coloring, and Jack Kirby hated
(above) The Demon made his first appearance in the last panel blurb in
New Gods #10, and Jack based his look on Hal Foster’s character from
Prince Valiant (below). But while the yellow face was established by Foster,
it was Len Wein who did the rest of the color scheme for the character (right).
MARK: There are probably now cover bands touring as the San CHARLIE: The first one?
Diego Five-String Mob. Has anyone ever brought them back into the MARK: Yeah, the first one.
comics, even for a panel?
CHARLIE: I’m the only one on the panel who, unfortunately, never
SCOTT: Like a lot of the things I’ve created, they’ve never been got to meet Jack, but growing up as a fan, obviously a huge fan grow-
brought back. ing up. I was at DC Comics and Mad Magazine, from ’93 to 2005,
42
then I came over to Abrams, which is an art book publisher, we first professionals, we would tell Jack our ideas—here’s what we have in
published Norman Rockwell, and Richard Avedon and really great mind, and Jack would volunteer concepts! He offered us the Mountain
artists, and one of my missions was to sort of do comics and treat it of Judgement... a number of things. These were all concepts he later
like art. I had a triumvirate of artists I wanted to do monographs on, used in his own books, and I was incredibly flattered... “Let’s get
and one was Harvey Kurtzman for humor and war comics, Will these ideas out there,” even if he didn’t do it himself.
Eisner for creating the graphic novel, and top of that, first of that,
MARK: It’s amazing. When Steve and I were working for him, we
was Jack Kirby, and I really felt like having a monograph on Kirby,
would come to him with an idea for something, and Jack would say,
published by a company like Abrams, putting him on the same shelf
“That’s great, that’s terrific, that’s brilliant. And here’s what else you
as all those other artists was really, really important. So, that was
can do with it,” and he’d give you a completely different idea. (laugh-
one of the first things I did when I came to Abrams.
ter) And you’d sit there going, “How did he just come up with that?
MARK: Did people from the art book community know Jack? Did How did he take our thing, our concept, take 10% of it and turn it
they know of him? into a completely different idea?” That’s how his mind worked, he
was always coming up with things on the spot that sounded so fully
CHARLIE: They didn’t, but what was really great is, because of
developed, you’d have thought he spent months coming up with them.
Abrams’ distribution for a lot of art books, what was really gratifying
was that all the museum shops we sell to—and that’s everything LEN: On the other hand, once my wife asked Jack—he liked my wife
from the Met to we have offices in France, our parent company’s in very much, because he was actually taller than her—she was reading
France—we were able to get the Kirby book into pretty much every the reprints of the New Gods stuff that I was giving her, and she
major museum, so it was in the Louvre, it was in the Met and said—and I don’t even know why she said it this way, but she said,
MOMA, and we really didn’t get much resistance. I think
people were a little confused by it. I remember one story
was, when I first pitched the book, we have a publication
board where I have to present the book that I want to do,
and somebody said to me, “You want to do a monograph
on an artist that nobody in this room has heard of but
you.” And I’m still employed there, but I did say to the
head of my company, “That’s a problem with the fault of
the room, not the fault of the artist.” (laughter, applause)
The good thing was, they sort of backed down, but it was
enough to just mention all the characters Jack created,
and all the work that he had done, and the fact that Mark
and I had done a book called MAD Art, it really helped to
sort of show that not only was it important to do a book
on Jack, it was important to do Mark’s book on Jack.
That was the other point, somebody said, “Maybe we
should get a really famous art writer or art critic to do it,”
and my point was that it wasn’t just a book on Jack, it
was Mark’s book on Jack.
MARK: Thank you, Charlie. I want to ask the panel, does
anyone have a Jack story we haven’t told lately in public?
Scott, Len? Do you have a story about Jack?
LEN: Aside from his tremendous generosity, when Marv
and I...
MARK: Oh, you left out the part of your story where Jack
called other companies! This was when Len was sick in
the hospital, and people thought he was dying.
LEN: Yes, that’s true! Jack being Jack, said to... I was very,
very sick. He did a Get Well card for me, which was a huge
Captain America drawing; it’s still on my wall, it’s just
amazing, but he called DC and said to them basically,
“One of your biggest fans is really sick in the hospital,
and you guys should do something to acknowledge him.”
And a week or so later, I’m still in the hospital, and I get
this huge art board about yay big, with a montage of
prime DC characters, penciled I think by Curt Swan and
inked by Murphy Anderson, and signed by the entire DC
staff. A Get Well card, and that’s because of Jack. I’ve still
got that somewhere too.
SCOTT: Now, DC sends out Get Sick cards. (laughter)
LEN: About Jack’s generosity, we didn’t stop showing up (previous page) Someone needs to bring back Magnar, a one-issue throwaway New God that
on Saturdays, Marv and I, and when we got older, and in Kirby used to humble Superman in these Jimmy Olsen #147 pencils (March 1972).
our late teens, when we were planning to become comics (above) Len’s pal Marv Wolfman wrote this text page for New Gods #1 (Feb. 1971).
43
professional society for cartoonists in
Los Angeles, and the less someone had
done, the more they tried to make noise
Jack did get Cap into the realm of outer space sci-fi in Captain America Annual #3. Who knows? and assert themselves as important in
Maybe his conversation with the kid mentioned here, sparked the idea in his head. the group. If you’re amidst a bunch of
people you don’t feel you belong among,
you’ve got to try to exaggerate your
importance so you feel like you belong
there. Jack showed up, no ceremony,
didn’t get a hand, didn’t shout “I’m Jack
Kirby, folks, created zillions of comics,”
completely unobtrusive, quiet. So we
had this little coffee room, Jack goes in
there, there’s a cartoonist in there, a
Hispanic gentleman who was drawing
for Disney and Hanna-Barbera—let’s
leave his name out of this...
SCOTT: But he was one of these guys
that always assumed that people had a
hard time communicating with him
because of his Spanish accent. But what
it really was, this fellow thought in the
most non-linear way, sort of the Bizarro
version of Jack’s non-linear thinking, so
it was like... I’ve been in situations where
you’re just saying the simplest thing
imaginable, and yet get this answer like
you’d hallucinated the whole thing. So
imagine Jack talking to this guy.
MARK: So, Jack had not put on his name
badge. We all had name badges, but Jack
had not put his on, because he didn’t
care if anybody knew who he was. Jack’s
pouring some coffee, and this cartoonist
says to Jack, “Oh, hello, who are you?”
And [Jack] says... what was it?
SCOTT: It was great, he says, “My name
is Ramon De Las Flores.” (laughter) Jack
is saying this to a guy from Mexico, and
it’s pretty good pronunciation! I think
that was the only Spanish stuff Jack
knew!
MARK: Jack used to listen to the Spanish
“I understand why the Black Racer is flying around on skis, but language TV station when he worked,
what’s with the medieval armor? Why are you putting him in two because he didn’t understand Spanish, so he didn’t have to listen to
different things at once?” And Jack said, “He wants to get noticed what they were saying; it was just like the equivalent of white noise.
that way.” (laughter) That was his whole explanation. So, then he says, “What do you draw?” And Jack says...
MARK: He’d tell things on the spot. A kid came up to him at a comics SCOTT: “Pornographic cartoons.” (laughter) And it was just matter-
convention one time and said, “What’s Captain America’s shield of-fact...
made out of?” And Jack had that moment where he thought, “That MARK: And the guy bought it! And he says, “Really?”
kid asked a question and deserves an answer,” and Jack stood And Jack starts this little discourse about drawing the
there and ad-libbed for ten, fifteen minutes a com- Tijuana bible cartoons and Maggie and Jiggs having sex,
plete story which I wish I’d been recording, about how and he goes on and on in great detail about, “Hey,
Captain America found a meteor one time and carved nobody wants the Alley Oop ones anymore, but there’s
his shield out of it, and he goes on and on, and it was a a resurgence of Maggie and Jiggs and Blondie, Blondie
story he was just making up on the spot, but you could and Dagwood are always selling...”
put that story in a comic immediately. It was a terrific
story. Scott was witness to one of Jack’s greatest moments SCOTT: He never mentioned the coming of Galactus.
of creativity, you saw this... we had a group called CAPS (laughter)
that was founded by Sergio Aragonés, and a wonderful MARK: [pause] ...two, three, four.
man named Don Rico who was a former editor at Marvel, and
myself. One of the interesting things about CAPS is that it was a SCOTT: [looking at warning printed on his name placard] Oh, “Please
44
be aware many members of your audience may be under 18 years of but I did something
age.” They aren’t now. (laughter) in Jack’s honor once,
because he had said,
MARK: It’s on the back of all these placards here, that tell us who we
“I like underground
are. So Jack goes on with this for about ten minutes, and the guy’s
comics,” and I didn’t
buying every bit of it, and I think what was going on in Jack’s mind
realize he meant, “I
was the fun of inventing a story, and just seeing how long he could
like the concept of
make it credible. He wasn’t trying to make fun of this guy. Jack didn’t
guys doing stuff in
have a mean streak in him. He wasn’t being mean to this guy. It was
their own style and
just an interesting experiment in his head, because he didn’t need to
owning it, and the
say, as somebody else might, “I’m Jack Kirby, I created Captain
stuff getting alter-
America.” He didn’t need that admiration or respect. He was just
nate distribution.”
amusing himself, and he goes on and on, and I’m listening to all
I thought he meant
this, you heard this, and finally we started laughing enough that we
he liked sex, drugs,
gave him away, and I introduced Jack.
rock ’n’ roll, and
SCOTT: Jack started laughing, and again... there was not a scintilla dirty pictures.
of meanness in Jack. (laughter) I brought
this poster to him,
MARK: I introduced him, and there was a moment here where this
and it was really
cartoonist thought, “Jack Kirby has been ghosting Jiggs and Maggie
offensive, and I
porn under the name Ramon De Las Flores?” (laughter) The thing
thought, “Hey, he
that struck me was this total lack of malice, there was no... Jack was
likes underground
capable of being very angry at certain people at certain times for
comics.” Jack didn’t
certain reasons, most of them good reasons, but this guy hadn’t Scott’s poster was a riff on this Strange Tales #98
get mad at me at all; splash, but with the word “off” added to the headline.
done anything to him, and he didn’t try to harm him in any way. I
I mean, if a kid
think he was trying to amuse him a bit.
brought me something like this, I’m sure I would get some sort of
SCOTT: Well, I’m not going to go into any great detail, obviously, legal action going there.
Pencils from the two-page spread in Captain America #207 (March 1977). All that Spanish TV in his studio may’ve inspired him to take Cap to Central America.
45
MARK: And it was a Kirby swipe.
SCOTT: It was a Kirby swipe, I’m not going to say any more about it, but it
was... I mean, I said, “Jack, this is in your honor,” and he just looked at me...
and says, “Well, I’m a family man.” (laughter) I said, “Well, you can hang it in a
closet.” (laughter) I swear, and I wasn’t joking, like that might work, he’d want
to open it up and look at it. (laughter) Then slam the door and shut it. They
were so nice to people, and they were so nice to crazy people. (laughter)
MARK: I think the next panel is starting to filter in, we’ve got about five minutes,
if anybody wants to shout out a question or two before we get out of here.
SCOTT: Can I get a real quick plug? I’ve got a couple of books, I didn’t want to
say anything at the beginning, I don’t know if Chris Wisnia is here, there he is,
he does all those Doris Danger comics. [Len’s cell phone rings] This is the craziest
book I’ve ever seen, that only people in this room would care about. It’s a
children’s alphabet book called ‘S’ Is For Spanko: A Frightening and Realistic
Giant Monster Alphabet Book, and it’s all made-up versions of the same kind of
monsters that Jack hated drawing so much back at Marvel. (laughter) I mean,
gasp, this is “Jiffy Juptoi,” “Clingo, the Monstrosity who Loves Climbing,” so
see that man if you like weird stuff like this. And I’ve been working on a thing
called “Annoying Orange” and in this story called “Transfarmers,” I did... I get
paid so little, I had to do things I really wanted to do, so this is a 25-page story
with food processors from outer space, and it’s called “Monsters on the Prowl
For Creatures on the Roam,” so kids aren’t going to get a thing out of this, but
if you’re reading it to your kid, you’ll laugh your butt off. (laughter)
MARK:
Thanks, Scott. [Len’s
phone rings again] We’ll take just two
questions here while Len takes some calls.
(laughter) Sir?
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you very much for
this great panel. Growing up reading comic books, I
just realized after going to college and taking classes
on Shakespeare, that I believe I might be right or
wrong, I don’t know how you guys feel about it, but
I believe the young Thor and the Warriors Three
and all that, wouldn’t you say that was basically
patterned after Prince Hal, and Volstagg instead of
Falstaff and all that?
MARK: Yes, it’s amazing how many Jack... one of
the core things that begins to explain Jack’s creativity
is that he had a tendency to put things together and
make odd associations. Last year, did I tell you my
odd theory about the Lava Men in Thor? Quickly,
the Stone Men from Saturn are in Thor, the first
Thor story... why
them? Why are
they the villains in
the first Thor
story? It has
something to do
with this, I’m sure.
Jack was very
intrigued by the
Stone Men of
Easter Island, and
one of the places
he read about
them was in the
book Kon-Tiki by
Thor Heyerdahl.
46
(laughter) Wow! And I can’t quite explain how you get from one to SCOTT: Xeen
the other, but if you said a name to Jack, or a word or a concept, or Arrow?
he came up with something, that’s how his mind went. It was grab-
MARK:
bing things all around, and putting things together that nobody else
We’re out of
would’ve put side-by-side. This is my theory that that’s why the
time here, I
Easter Island type guys were in the first Thor story.
want to
LEN: It feels to me like Jack’s mind worked like you were playing thank every-
Plinko. You drop a thought, it’d ricochet off of five other thoughts, body in this
and finally it’d get down to the place of something... [pauses, looks at room here
Mark] it’s no worse than yours! (laughter) who keeps
writing
MARK: But yours has Drew Carey in it! (laughter) Last question here.
about Jack,
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Related to that same question, Jack created a talking
vampire planet, and a last human boy in a world full of animals, and about Jack,
a surfer that heralded a cosmic god. What is the weirdest thing Jack keeping his
created to the people on the panel, what’s the weirdest thing that name alive. I
when you saw it, you went, “What?” Just one thing. The Surfer now don’t think
makes sense, but at the time... it’s necessary
for us to do
LEN: Don Rickles. (laughter)
that. I think
MARK: Jack once showed me a drawing of a new character, and he the work
started explaining it to me, and at the end of it, I said, “Let me see if keeps itself
I have this straight, Jack. He’s a black paraplegic on skis,” and Jack alive, but it’s
went, “No, no!... well, I guess so, yeah.” (laughter) And that concept very nice to
[the Black Racer] was originally a stand-alone concept. It was not make sure
supposed to be part of the Fourth World, but Carmine asked him to his name is
stick it in the Fourth World, and Jack said, “Okay.” He was very always attached to what he did, that people remember him, and that
accommodating. I think it would’ve been a much more intelligent some of the press lately has been quite wonderful reminding people
comic and made more sense as a concept if it had been done the way about Jack’s involvement in the Avengers and things like that, charac-
Jack originally explained it to Steve and myself. Anyone else? ters who are now gaining a much wider audience and such. I’ve got a
feeling the day is going to come when we will not need to do Jack
SCOTT: I don’t remember the name of the character, but when
Kirby Tribute Panels because the whole damn convention will just
Marvel was doing all these monster comics, they even extended it to
be considered a Jack Kirby Tribute Panel. (applause) Thank you, Len
their western comics, and there was a monster that was a totem pole
Wein, Scott Shaw, Charlie Kochman, Paul S. Levine for joining us
who was an alien from outer space. He had five faces going up his
this year. Friday night, Kevin Eastman asked if he could be on the
torso, he was like the prototype to Arnim Zola, but he was fighting
panel next year, so next year we’ll have Kevin Eastman up here.
the Rawhide Kid (Rawhide Kid #21, June 1961, shown at right).
Thank you. (applause) ★
LEN: Tim Boo Ba?
SCOTT: That wasn’t Timm
Boo Ba, that was another one.
MARK: Charlie, do you have a
weird favorite Kirby charac-
ter?
CHARLIE: I’m trying to
remember the name, it was
from Strange Tales, Googam
or something like that?
MARK: The son of something
like that, two gumdrop
monsters?
CHARLIE: Yeah.
MARK: Googam, son of
Goom. Paul, did you ever see
a Kirby character you thought
was really, really strange?
PAUL: Unfortunately, I think
I’ve told everybody this
before, but growing up I was
a DC fan, no Marvel comics
at all, so the answer is sorry,
but no.
47
An ongoing examination of Kirby’s art and compositional skills
In Kirby’s dualistic exploration of godhood there were in fact several races of higher
beings, co-existing beyond the earthly sphere. Orion represented the Cosmic Clear Light
of the Source. Here (at right), encircled by bands of energy which guide him, Orion
returns to his home planet. Having explored various magnificent depictions of a world
fit for gods in Thor with his designs for Asgard, Kirby gives us a new twist here. It is a
city that floats above a more pristine world below.
As I see this series as one of the last and certainly one of the least meddled
with, testifying to his preoccupation with the “Power Cosmic”, I feel that there is a
sort of culmination here as we near the end of Kirby’s career. Despite all, Kirby
never loses his sense of wonder. In that two-page spread we see the cosmos beck-
oning the young Captain Victory as it beckoned Orion the warrior of the Source,
The Fantastic Four, Thor and the space spanning Silver Surfer. It is no surprise that the mystery of the cosmos
beckons us as well as we follow the continuing adventures spawned by the magnificent mind of Jack Kirby. ★
53
Innerview
Kirby on WBAI Radio, 1987
Jack Kirby was interviewed on New York’s WBAI book; is that right?
(right) Wilton of the West KIRBY: Warren, it’s a pleasure talking to you and I want
detail by Kirby, some of to thank you for the picture and it was just beautiful.
his earliest comics work.
REESE: I couldn’t miss, Jack, because I say in all sincerity,
and I did try to do it in the period style, I learned how to
(bottom) This 1938 draw that way looking at things that you did. And as I’ve
model sheet for Betty
Boop gives you an idea said before, although people take formal lessons in art, I
of what Jack would’ve don’t think that the youngsters can catch on quickly
had to follow as an looking at classical paintings and classical illustration.
“in-betweener” on the But you have that magnificent fusion between cartooning
cartoon series. KIRBY: Stan Lee was the editor of Marvel and I had
and straight illustration that made it comprehensible so
worked at Marvel much earlier, and in fact when I first
that even a guy like me could at least begin to catch on. I
(next page) A 1980s went to work for Marvel, it was in partnership with Joe
know I waited years and years just to be able to maybe
private commission for a Simon, who was a fine artist and a fine storyteller and a
spend an hour with you sometime and so I gotta tell you,
fan. If Jack loved nature, wonderful guy. And we got along great and we sold
it didn’t get more natural I am thrilled to be able to share this moment with you
Captain America to Marvel, the idea of Captain America,
than this! like this.
and Captain America began what you might call the
KNIGHT: We’re also assisted in this program by Max comic revolution.
Schmeid and
REESE: Talk a little bit about your early days in the busi-
Creative Unity and
ness, and in fact take it from your early life as a tough
a lot of other people
member of the Newsboy Legion on the Lower East Side
who love the work
here in New York.
that you have done
over the years, Jack. KIRBY: Well, I thank you for asking. The Lower East Side
When you went to was a... well, it was a “people place.”
what became
REESE: You lived on Suffolk Street, didn’t you, Jack?
Marvel Comics, you
were something of KIRBY: Yes, I lived on Suffolk Street.
a pioneer in the way
REESE: Do you remember which number? We want to
that comics came to
put a bronze plaque out front.
be produced in
terms of the artist KIRBY: I believe it was 131 Suffolk Street.
having a controlling
REESE: And your brother Dave once told me, Jack, that
influence in the
your mother used to draw also. Perhaps you could clarify
direction of the
54
it for us, and then away you go waxing philosophical,
which I always find fascinating because I never even
wax my kitchen floor.
KIRBY: No, I’m not gonna wax philosophical right off
the bat, but I can tell you my mother was a marvelous
storyteller. The immigrants who came to the United
States were all storytellers because they came from a
storytelling heritage. The immigrants were all either
former peasants or former royalty. And they all had
stories to tell, and naturally coming from different
countries, this was their format for getting acquainted.
KNIGHT: While we’re in the early days, Jack, I’d like to
go to one of the things that you worked on with which
I have been most impressed, and that is back with Max
Fleischer; he is known, of course, among other things
for the Betty Boop cartoons. And you worked with him
in the animation of those, did you not?
KIRBY: Yes, I did. I was an animator. I certainly didn’t
hold any position of importance. I remember the man-
aging editor was a fellow called Seymour Kneitel, and I
possibly saw Mr. Fleischer just once. I think I saw Dave
Fleischer.
KNIGHT: Well, you were, I believe, what was called an
in-betweener, and that’s someone who makes the
panels of each frame of a cartoon move smoothly from
one to the other, or at least one of your applications for
the job involved doing that.
KIRBY: Yes, it did. And in those days, to make a figure
take one step took 16 pictures, and my job was to draw
one of the many in-between steps, and that’s why I was
called an in-betweener.
KNIGHT: Well, one of the most remarkable cartoons
to come out of the Betty Boop series, at least to my
mind is—well, there were several of them, that seemed
to almost combine live motion and animation. And
I’m thinking of one in particular, one that involved the
music of Cab Calloway, and I forget whether it was
Saint James Infirmary or the Hidey Ho song, but it was a
cartoon that involved the singer’s motion across the
stage in a backwards way that was exactly the moon-
walk step that is now so famous in the feet of Michael
Jackson. And so would this be the kind of thing that
you were involved in doing?
KIRBY: Well, you’re describing an entire story involvement and I was my figure anatomy. And I’ve faced those down with the knowledge
never subject to any storytelling sessions. My job was a particularly that my object in drawing was not to get the anatomy perfect, but to
poor one and a poorly paid one and I just did as I was told, and mirror the people themselves. And I believe I accomplished that.
therefore I considered it on a level with a factory job. KNIGHT: There is something striking about the anatomies that I
KNIGHT: Well, for so distinguished a career, the start cannot be as certainly remember in your various works, and that is a very strong
humble as you said, but where did you go from there? sense of perspective along the very frame of the body. You’ll see a
magnificent chest in the foreground trailing off into almost pointed
REESE: There was something important about that that he should feet at a greater distance. And I think that sense of perspective and
comment on. Jack, I know that you have said, though, in the past body form is something characteristic of your work.
that your work doing that gave you an appreciation of the figure in
motion, the grace of the human body moving. Am I correct, Jack? KIRBY: No, it’s characteristic of me. And it’s how I perceive things.
KIRBY: Well, it added to what I already felt strongly about. I love REESE: Do you have a big chest with little bitty feet?
people, I love nature. I love the things that nature produces. And KIRBY: No, but it’s how I personally perceive the world itself.
therefore I believe in it strongly and I try to mirror all that in my
work. I never contrive phony design or phony anatomy. I draw REESE: Well, you in effect had to reinvent the human figure, possibly
people as I see them. I’m not involved in making artistic masterpieces. because of the speed with which you had to work in the early days,
My object is to mirror people and I’ve always done that. Believe me, and we have a few more questions for you about some of your
there have been occasions when I’ve had to face severe criticism of favorite people from the early days. Now, after you did your work as
55
an editorial cartoonist and probably practically running the place
for the Lincoln Features Syndicate, you connected with Jerry Iger
and did Wilton of the West for him. How did you come to connect
with Jerry? I understand in the Iger shop you got to know Bob Kane
and Lou Fine, and I’m sure fans of the Golden Age would like to
know some of your reminiscences about that.
KIRBY: Yes, I did. I got to know Will Eisner as well as Jerry Iger, and I
believe they were partners at the time, and the others were working
with me as fellow artists.
REESE: How did it feel at the time? What do you remember about
working with those people and the feel of this comics industry
aborning? residual incomes from their work. But it would seem that you were
in a very pivotal period in the history, particularly with Stan Lee and
KIRBY: Remember, I was a very young man at the time. I was in my the Marvel days in changing that industry.
twenties. The people working with me were fellows of the same age,
and some of the people I worked for weren’t much older than REESE: And Joe Simon, I believe, had a lot to do with that because as
myself. Comics were just evolving. Remember, it takes time for any- I understand it, he became sort of the business liaison between your-
thing to evolve into a form where it’s accepted internationally. self and the publishers, so perhaps you can clarify all that for us now.
REESE: Yes. Now, I remember you telling me one time—I said that I KIRBY: Joe Simon was a little older and a lot taller than I was, and
used to live on Voorhees Avenue in Brooklyn, and at 1901 Voorhees Joe Simon made an impression on that rigid system and I became
Avenue—for ten years, I think until he died Joe Simon’s partner because, well, Joe Simon was a marvelous entrée
in 1934, Winsor McKay (left), the creator of into the field and all of us were not only friends, but we were learning
Little Nemo In Slumberland and Gertie the from each other, and Joe was certainly someone whose type was new
Dinosaur, one of the first animated cartoons, to me. He was not only a good friend, but he opened up the world to
lived there—and you told me that you me, and I began to see different types of people, different types of
knew Mr. McKay and Winsor McKay, Jr. systems. And I began to know new types of friends. Joe was just a
and I thought you might have some remi- wonderful symbol to me of a class that I’d never seen.
niscence of that. REESE: Now, some of your early work, I believe you did Blue Bolt,
KIRBY: Well, that was quite a long time ago, but I remember it—not right? And the Blue Beetle newspaper strip. And ultimately you’ve
too clearly—but I knew Winsor McKay, Jr. certainly and I knew of come to Timely to the Goodman family.
his father who I admired greatly. KIRBY: Yes.
REESE: Did you visit them at home or did you know them from work? REESE: And you worked on Marvel Science Stories at first, their pulp
KIRBY: I was too humble a person to get to that stage. You must magazine. What brought you to Timely; how did you become
remember the tenor of the times. They were more rigid and stricter involved, what are some of your early memories of your work? I
then, than they are today, of course. know you did the cover of Marvel Mystery #12 (left), a picture of the
Angel in I think October 1940, which I believe was your first comic
KNIGHT: You mean, in social customs, or how do you mean that? book work for them; then you did the Red Raven, of course, for
KIRBY: Well, social customs. Even professionally. The editor was an August 1940 (next page, bottom), the Vision in Marvel Mystery #13
almighty figure and the artist was a humble figure and it was not for November 1940 (next page, top), and then ultimately Captain
quite a caste system, but it was a system that was evolving. America. Your comments, please, your memories, Jack?
KNIGHT: That’s specifically what I’m interested in and what is so
remarkable about your career in terms of the state of the comics art
now, and the way that it
was then. It would
appear to me that at
that time, creative per-
sonnel were subservient
to the corporate entity;
that is to say, not all
artists and writers have
been able to receive
rewards commensurate
with their work. We
know of the famous
case of the creators of
Superman, for instance,
and with DC Comics.
Now, of course, at that
company and Marvel
and others, there is more
equity for the artist in
terms of royalties or
56
KIRBY: Well, my memories are of being with—remember, I was still in a partnership with Joe, and
Joe and the Goodmans were very good
friends. And therefore in those days it just
seemed to be part of the system where you
follow the people who know the people,
and of course today the lines are happily
looser and you can achieve much more
under today’s system than you could then.
And so you did the best you could. You
found ways of working yourself into the field,
and Joe Simon was a wonderful partner in
that respect because he had a wonderful
business sense, and he knew a lot more
about business than I did.
KNIGHT: If it’s not indiscreet, I’d like to ask
if you can recollect any particular turning
point or periods of transition from the artist
as humble and under-rewarded worker, to
the point where you became appropriately
something of an executive in the field.
KIRBY: Well, that was a matter of learning it (previous page, top) Will Eisner has dinner with
not only professionally, but socially. Jack and Roz at a mid-1970s San Diego Con.
Remember the field was like that. And you Photo by Alan Light.
had to become socially acceptable as well as (previous page, bottom) Jack and Joe Simon in
professionally acceptable. their home studio in the late 1940s.
57
which I believe was not one of your favorites, but still had some interesting scientific concepts in it.
For people who don’t know about the Red Raven, he was a human being adopted by a race of birdlike
beings who lived on an antigravitational island somewhere in the sky. Now, antigravity is science-
fiction. I think there was an antigravitational island in the old Flash Gordon stuff. And then of course
also in Red Raven, you had the spaceman, Comet Pierce, who went through space on a solar engine.
Now, we already have solar engines, we’re still working on antigravity, although I should imagine
that Dr. Mitch Iocaku who is on this station ought to have it ready for us in a few weeks. Could you
please tell us though what led you to those concepts, Jack?
KIRBY: Well, remember science-fiction was very new in those days. It had a limited audience but to a
young mind, it was very, very attractive. I think I oriented myself also to looking ahead and I read a
lot of science-fiction and began to evolve concepts of my own, and I adopted these concepts in
comics. And you’ll find that the early comics were universally based on some kind of science-fiction
concept. A science-fiction concept in those days was extremely attractive and salesworthy, and of
course these days, they’re certainly acceptable. But in those days, they were daring.
REESE: Especially daring on Suffolk Street where I understand if you would have gotten caught with
it, you’d have gotten a clobbering, but they’d have straightened out your jacket when they left you at
the door for your mother to find.
KIRBY: Exactly. It was a rough but a very polite crowd.
REESE: One of the more remarkable contributions to science-fiction that you made or attempted to
make was
with Starman
Zero (see next
spread) which
you proposed
as a newspa-
per strip in
1947. And
the outfit
that you pro-
posed for the
space traveler
in this is
virtually
identical to
the uniforms
that are worn
by NASA
personnel at
this time,
including
crossbars on
the helmet
which you
describe as
actually
being gun
sights with
calibration
marks on the
glass helmet.
Well, as you
know, Jack,
now there
are helmets
with motion
sensors and
infrared
detectors
that look at
where the eye
is focusing
and that
are used for
58
(this spread) In 1976, Kirby got to briefly revisit several
Golden Age Timely Comics characters, on these covers for
Marvel Two-In-One #20, Marvel Two-In-One Annual #1, and
Marvel Premiere #29, all featuring the Liberty Legion. No
doubt this was at the request of our pal Roy Thomas, who
was the Dean of Golden Age hero resurrections at Marvel.
59
Eyes, one of the characters you had proposed
for Starman Zero. Was this your way of using
this idea that had previously been set aside?
KIRBY: Well, no. It’s an idea that always
floats around in your mind. It’s something
that you play with and it’s something that
you can play with in many ways, and it’s a
way of testing your own mind. It’s a way of
testing your own creativity. One idea isn’t
certainly the ultimate idea. I’m not fool
enough to think that I can come up with
the ultimate idea. And so I’ll take one idea
and use it in many different ways knowing
full well that the idea itself still has a wide
range of use.
REESE: Well, even though we’re out of
sequence, the remarkable thing about the
human mind is its ability to process infor-
mation in parallel, so while we’re on the
subject of science-fiction, I can’t pass the
chance to ask you what your visions of the
field are today in terms of what could be
possible tomorrow.
KIRBY: I always tried to look 30 to 50 years
ahead, I always have. And I can tell you that
today I’m content to just not think about
that kind of thing. And leave it to younger
and fresher minds and in doing comics, I’ve
grown up I think as a human being and I’m
content to stay at the level where I am today.
KNIGHT: This is Earth Watch on WBAI in
New York. My name is Robert Knight. I’m
joined in the studio by Warren Reese and
by telephone with Jack Kirby.
REESE: Okay, Jack, I’m going to get out of
sequence a bit and follow up on what
Robert was saying. Jack, you told me a won-
derful story about how you do what you do,
and it tied into an experience you had in
the war. Do you recall the story I mean?
KIRBY: Oh, the white tape?
REESE: I don’t know about the white tape. Without springing the whole thing away, I’ll try to
refresh your memory a bit. I had asked you how do you do what you do, and you in your normally
modest way, not wishing to impose your standards or techniques on anyone else, you replied to
me, it’s done by privilege. Then you told me a story of something that happened to you in the
war where a man had gotten killed and what that got you to thinking about.
KIRBY: Yes, and it got me to think how valuable human beings are and at that moment I discov-
ered my own humanity. In that moment, I discovered everybody else’s. And when the man was
hit and he asked me what happened, I can only answer him—it was a man who was slipping
away, and I said, “You happened,” because to me, humanity is extremely important. And I couldn’t
say anything else, as a human being, I tried to tell this man what I really felt. And that’s what I
felt. I felt that he had happened and that was the most important event in the world, for him.
REESE: And following up on that, though, you told me, you said that it got you to thinking what
really happened. You said to me that they feed us a bunch of facts, a bunch of bull. In books and
school, what do all these facts mean? And you said it got you to thinking what really happened,
and your words to me were, “Did the Lord send angels in night shirts with feathered wings all over
the universe to spread His message,” and you didn’t think that that’s exactly the way it happened.
You said, “Did Joshua knock down the walls with 60 trumpets? What really happened?” And it
seemed to me that you had concluded that by people like this dying, it bought the rest of us—
including you, the master—the time to sit at a drawing board in a leisurely way and speculate on
60
the nature of the begins with motion. I believe in motion. I believe that essentially
universe and motion is life and it’s my way of portraying it.
humanity as to
REESE: You know that we’re gonna talk about Captain America for
what really hap-
at least a couple of minutes, don’t you?
pened and what is
really happening. KIRBY: If you want to, I’m at your service.
Did I draw the
REESE: Thank you, Jack. Now, the origin of Captain America, you’ve
right conclusion
discussed many times as he was the man for the times. But the way
there, Jack?
you handled how he became Cap was most interesting. The way
KIRBY: You did, Steve Rogers got this apparently potent endocrine chemical prepara-
and I can tell you tion that speeded up his metabolism and developed every cell in his
that that was part body—what inspired you to that? Robert here is a great expert in
of it, and I’m still trying to figure out what happened. I know I never science and I’m sure he would be interested in discussing with you
will. I don’t know if anybody else will. But I think the very question the scientific background for that. How did you do that, Jack?
itself makes our lives interesting. And I think that none of us really
KIRBY: Well, remember chemistry was a subject of mystery certainly
have the final conclusion. It’s just a personal opinion. And I think
to a fellow like myself. I hadn’t majored in chemistry although I took
living with questions is a lot more interesting than living with
it in school. I just skirted the subject. And like anything that was a
answers. So I think we all live with questions and it makes the world
mystery to me, it was fertile ground for storytelling, therefore in a
a lot more interesting for us.
chemical way I was able to originate or I helped to originate—
REESE: Okay, let’s zip along a little bit with
the Golden Age. You did Captain Daring in
Daring Mystery #7 (below) which was a story
about a guy under the earth, and the char-
acter seemed very similar, both the charac-
ter and his girlfriend, to Comet Pierce and
Red Raven. Similarly, “Mercury and the
20th Century” which you did in Red Raven
was very similar in appearance and powers
to “Hurricane” (above) which was the back-
up feature in Captain America. Can you
comment, please, on the similarity; how do
we fit these two sets of characters into the
grand scheme of the comics universe, and
was really one essentially a continuation of
the other?
KIRBY: Like I say, comics is a personal view
and certainly, remember my comics were
done at different periods and I can only
think in an individual way. And what
comes out of me at certain times is com-
pletely individual. What you’re reading is
Jack Kirby. What you’re looking at is Jack
Kirby. And it can be no one else. My style is
personal, my style of writing is personal,
and I believe in that. I believe what comes
out of me is an individual thing, and that’s
why I believe in the individual. I know that
whatever you write, I will recognize. I will
recognize it because you wrote it.
REESE: Well, I mean to say, though, since
Red Raven only went for one issue and then
you segued more or less into Captain
America, was that your way of more or less
continuing the character? I just wanted to
know about the name change really from
Mercury to Hurricane.
KIRBY: Mercury and Hurricane are essen-
tially a phrase that signifies some kind of
hurried motion. And if we think of hurried
motion, we’re either gonna think of mercury
or storm or hurricane or tornado, a big
wind or an element of that kind. And it all (previous page and above) Jack’s proposal for Starman Zero, an early attempt at a newspaper strip concept.
61
remember Joe Simon was in on this with me, and we both originated Captain America. We
talked it over and we decided to do it in a chemical manner. Because chemistry at that time was
about as mysterious as electricity still is. And remember there was very little thought given to
electronics, so it was a scientific age that was just beginning.
REESE: And when you revised his origin, by the way, you managed to stick in some electronics,
the thing about the Vita Rays. I would gather, Robert, you know a little bit about Einsteinian
physics, energy to matter conversions, to give Steve Rogers some mass while that chemical was
speeding up his metabolism.
KNIGHT: Well, that’s theoretically plausible.
KIRBY: Also remember that I was doing a lot of reading and a lot of research. There was a story
in Captain America which had an atom bomb and that story was done in ’41.
REESE: Which one was that, Jack? I don’t recall it.
KIRBY: Well, I forget the individual story myself. I forget the name of the story. But I remember
doing it because I saw an article in the paper where a fellow named Nikola Tesla [recording is
garbled here] and it became an atom bomb to me.
KNIGHT: That’s thoroughly remarkable because the first sustained nuclear chain reaction did
not occur until 1942 at Fermi Lab in Chicago, and this is at a time that the Manhattan Project
62
Captain America was rambunctious, he was willing
to fight anybody in sight, and reflected a differ-
ent area of society. If you ask your own father
and if he came from a large city, he would under-
stand Captain America very well. Captain America
reflected the type of people I knew and saw.
KNIGHT: He was not without problems.
KIRBY: He was always with problems because
people always are and Captain America resolved
them. He resolved my problems. If I was in a
fight with 25 men, I had to resolve my own situa-
tion. What would I do in a fight with 25 men?
And I had to get away with it too. I knew that in
real life I would be smeared but on that comic
page, I had to beat those 25 men and I choreo-
graphed that page so it would resolve itself in
the right manner.
KNIGHT: Before we resume the thread of
chronological continuity, I’d like to reflect on
this with a previous statement that you made;
that is to say, that your art is Jack Kirby. If it’s
successful, it’s because it’s Jack Kirby and so on.
And at the same time, some people would say
there is an influence that the publications have.
Others might say a resonance with some spirit or
aspiration in the children and adults that are
reading them. And I’m wondering to what
degree you consciously tempered or brought out
things in your writing and art to establish some
kind of moral base, or to point out things that
you thought were ethically important?
KIRBY: Well, remember, the period was a black-
and-white period. The years in which I was a
young man, a hero was a hero and a villain was
an evil man. And therefore I had to resolve it in a
black-and-white manner. And I did. It’s not
sophisticated in the kind of sense that we see
things today. It was all black-and-white.
Everything was either evil or it was good, and
therefore the stories had that kind of a basic
power and it came across to the reader. The Red Skull returns in Captain America Comics #7 (Oct. 1941).
REESE: Of course, though even then, Jack—again
not meaning to contradict you—you had Bill Everett doing the Sub- KIRBY: Yes, I was. I wasn’t a rabid baseball fan but I went to the
Mariner, who couldn’t quite make up his mind if he was a hero or a games often with friends. And I loved the Dodgers because, well,
villain, and when the Human Torch first started off in Marvel Mystery they’ll always be a colorful team for me. That’s a personal thing, of
Comics, the world’s first android was very much considered outside course. As for the Red Skull, I was growing up. It was a period when
the law until perhaps Marvel Mystery #7 where his undercover cop I was growing up and I finally asked myself, “Why am I making this
friend, Johnson, helped him become a member of the police force Red Skull so evil? Why is he such a bad guy?” And I felt there was a
and ultimately led to that titanic crossover with the Sub-Mariner. story behind the Red Skull, and I began to think of him as a person.
But I’d like to get back to Cap and to black-and-white and good and And remember in my early years, he was merely just a villain.
evil, and how better to exemplify that than to talk about the quintes- REESE: He had no origin at first. You gave him characterization, a
sential antagonist for Cap, the Red Skull. Now of course the Red Skull deeper characterization in the ’60s.
first appeared without an origin. You gave him an origin later in Tales
of Suspense #66 in 1965, although someone out there with a Marvel KIRBY: Well, I gave him deeper characterization because I was
index will probably find out that I’m off an issue. Talk please about growing up and questioning myself, and remember, I’m a child of
the Red Skull vis a vis Captain America, if you will, Jack, and why my own times. I was questioning my own times.
you first started him off without an origin, and then of course even- KNIGHT: Just as a footnote, one of the grails, you might say, in
tually over the years developed the concept that there had been in Captain America and the Red Skull during the ’60s was an object
fact the kind of decoy Red Skull, that George Max on the first Red called the Cosmic Cube, and I’m sure you must be aware, hopefully
Skull was not the real guy. And of course your wonderful story about with some pride, that now in the field of artificial intelligence and
the giant drill with the Red Skull on it that came up in the middle of parallel computer processing and new approaches to computing,
Ebbets Field and wrecked it. I know you were a Dodgers fan. that one of the new computing devices that is based on massive
63
parallel structure is called the Cosmic Cube.
KIRBY: Well, it flatters me for you to make the connection,
but however, I’m sure it’s a technical term today whereas
yesterday, where storytelling is concerned, it was a wonder-
ful keystone for many, many good stories. So I used the
Cosmic Cube as I would use any other gimmick on which to
base five or six stories or maybe more. The Cosmic Cube to
me was certainly a part of the mystery which we’re still try-
ing to solve. What is there out in space, and then the many
other questions that come with it. Are we the only form of
life? If there is life out there, what kind of life will we find?
And the Cosmic Cube is that little clue maybe left behind in
the human mind. Somewhere in the human mind, that
question is important. I was doing that sort of thing so it
became important to me and therefore I created the Cosmic Cube probably—it was material
from the same fountainhead from which I was asking questions.
KNIGHT: Speaking of cosmic parallel pipeheads, this is Earth Watch on WBAI in New York.
My name is Robert Knight, here with Warren Reese celebrating the 70th birthday of Jack
Kirby, live on the air. Also with us in the studio is the Dean of the Golden Age of radio here,
Max Schmeid.
MAX SCHMEID: Hi, Jack. I’ve been sitting in on this conversation and one or two questions
have occurred to me. We’re discussing now the war years of the ’40s, and you’ve been saying
that you write very often to explore your own feelings and
thoughts about things. But what market did you feel you
were writing for? Today the general thought is that comic
books are for children. Was that the thought at the time?
Did you feel you were writing for a children’s audience?
KIRBY: Oh, that was not true at all. I was writing for every-
body. I was exploring everybody. I wanted to know about
everybody. And I’m still doing that today. As I said before,
people were always important to me. I wanted to know
more about them. And in creating those stories, I was
exploring people and I was exploring the questions that
people ask. I was exploring my own self in reality. And I’m
still doing that today.
REESE: We’ve got some follow-ups on that in a minute
specifically about your years doing the science-fiction stories
about the aliens. But I just had a couple more quickies about
your work on Cap. When you did the covers of Captain
America #7 and Young Allies #1, I have line art from house
ads that shows that they were redone. The changes that
were made on the cover of Young Allies made sense (right).
The Allies char-
acters were
made larger and
Joe Stalin was
omitted from
the cover,
presumably
because the
non-aggression
pact with Hitler
fell through and
he became one
of the Allies. But
on the cover of
Captain America
#7 (above),
which promi-
nently featured
the Red Skull (above) Covers sometimes changed between their appearances in house ads,
on the inside, and when they were actually published.
64
the figure of the Red Skull cutting a spiked ball down
over Betty Ross was changed on the cover to look like an
ordinary Nazi. That’s always been a mystery to me and I
was wondering if you could clarify anything about that.
KIRBY: Well, I can’t recall that particular issue well today.
I’d have to take more time than you give me to define it,
however I can tell you that whatever I drew there made
sense to me at the time and they reflected the times. I
can’t recall the particular story, however, if I drew Betsy
Ross doing that, it was an essential part of that story and
something to keep the reader interested, and it never
meant anything more than that.
REESE: Let’s just flip up there, I notice the early Caps from
1941 and ’42 smacked of your influences of film. The
characters and the stories seemed to be involved often
with movie-making or using projection techniques, but I
also noted that some of the costuming—for example, in
one story that you did with Ivan the Terrible—was very
authentically Russian. Were you influenced by any of
Sergei Eisenstein’s films like Alexander Nefsky—and just
the overall use of film-type characters in Captain America?
“The Phantom Hound of Cardiff Moor” which was like
Hound of the Baskervilles. “The Hunchback of Hollywood”;
all these things.
KIRBY: Well, I can tell you that you said it all for me. I
always was and I always will be a moviegoer, essentially
what I’ve always done was a kind of a still movie. And it
was the reason I dropped editorial cartoons to do comic
strips, because comic strips gave me more room to do a
movie. When the comic strips became limited, I did
comic books because they gave me more room to do a
movie, and I suppose I’m the type that will probably work
on an endless movie which I’ll never finish, I suppose.
But essentially that’s what I’ve always tried to do, from
my very early years. I’ve been an inveterate moviegoer
and still am and I love the medium. So what I draw and
what I’m still doing is part of that particular orientation.
REESE: Also in that time, in Captain America #7 (below),
you had a villain who was called the Toad in the story, Kirby’s cinematic influences were clearly showing in this Captain America #7 page.
wore a bat-like costume, but I caught something on the
contents page: he was called a Bat there. Was anybody worrying KIRBY: Everybody was always worrying about something, I can tell
about troubles with the Batman people at the time? you. And I never tried to get too close to anybody’s costume.
However, I tried to do the kind of character
that was being done at the time. Remember,
at that time everybody was thinking alike.
Super-heroes resembled each other in one
way or another. However, we did our best to
make them as different as possible.
REESE: Up to the foundations of the ’60s,
around 1959 you started doing a lot of these
wonderful stories about monsters which I
found coincided with the release of a lot of the
classics on Channel 9 here in New York: King
Kong, Son of Kong, Godzilla. And then some of
my favorite things were about these aliens, for
example, The Electronic Monster, The Blip,
who was really a benevolent alien enraged by
human savagery. Please comment on your use
of the monster—and of course the monster is
either the benevolent being or the misunder-
stood monster, which is the foundation of the
Hulk and the Thing and characters with
65
which the public is all the more familiar today.
KIRBY: Well, I don’t think that monsters are ever mysterious. Monsters in human or inhuman
form are living things with problems which vex them sorely in some way, and therefore they’re
inevitably involved in some sort of conflict in which anybody can get hurt. I don’t think monsters
zero in on any one in particular, and I think that’s why they are generally pitied more than feared,
and I felt the same way about them. I felt that monsters in some way have problems.
REESE: Yes. Let’s get right into the Marvel days now and the Fantastic Four. The powers of the
Fantastic Four with which everyone is already familiar, seemed to be reflections of the personalities
of each of them. Would this be some manifestation of how the mind that held them together during
a cosmic accident that should have disintegrated them, subconsciously guided the instability of their
cells, their molecules, to produce this monster that was the gruff personality, this totally flexible
man who had the totally flexible mind. This hot-headed teenager who literally becomes, you
know, a hot-head, and in the pre-Women’s Lib days, the defensive female who had the invisibility
to hide, and then later the invisible barrier. Were these manifestations of the personalities, Jack?
KIRBY: Well, I think they were manifestations of my own, and they were manifestations of the
times. Remember, we were absorbed with the possible and catastrophic results of radiation.
Remember, we didn’t know how radiation would affect anybody and being involved in the sale of
comics, I used it in that manner, to sell comic books. And I used it in as entertaining a way as
possible. Psychologically, whatever characters emerged were possibly the way I personally would
imagine them.
REESE:
Yeah, for example, Dr. Doom would seem to show how
evil he was, and indeed even nobility could come out
of the mistreatment of a human being, or the Hulk
who was the misunderstood monster. Maybe you
could talk with us just for a couple of minutes about
the genesis of the Hulk, of Dr. Doom, of a few of
your—you know, gee, everything by you seems like a
major creation to me, but you know what I mean.
KIRBY: There are Dr. Dooms and Hulks in all of us.
And if you read any dramatic news story, you’ll find
there were human beings involved. And you know as
well as anybody else that there have been some pretty
weird news stories in our times, and yet human beings
are involved in them. And when you dissect the stories
themselves, you’ll find that they’re not really dramatic
at all, that the most dramatic part about them was
that inside a human being, there is some sort of prob-
lems that we’re constantly trying to solve. And I felt
that my villains as well as my heroes were human
beings and therefore could have very bad problems. I
had a villain called Dr. Doom and Dr. Doom had a
severe problem. He was a perfectionist, and perfec-
tionists never solve their problems. It’s a belief of my
own, that none of us can be perfect, and if you’re a
perfectionist, you’ve got them in a conflict which can
never be solved.
KNIGHT: This is Earth Watch on WBAI. I’m Robert
Knight here in the studio with Warren Reese and with
Jack Kirby, live on the phone celebrating his 70th
birthday. And now comes the question about one of
my favorite Marvel comics, Spider-Man, who was not
exactly neurotic but had enough problems to have
justifiably been so. How in the world did Spider-Man
come into being?
KIRBY: Well, Spider-Man was also a creature of radiation.
And another version of that type of situation creating
a hero instead of a villain. And so Spider-Man became
a hero and he dealt with his own conflict in a very
From Timely to Marvel, the Ringmaster of Death became the Ringmaster of Crime, spanning the decades heroic manner and he still does today. I think Spider-
from his debut in the Golden Age in Captain America, to his return in Thor in the 1960s. Man is a lesson for all of us, that no matter what our
66
problem is, it’s our problem and if we make a heroic effort, we possibly may not solve it, but we can live
with it. And Spider-Man lives with his problem.
REESE: Quick follow-up. Jack, you were involved I know creatively at the genesis of Spider-Man—
KIRBY: Yes.
REESE: —and then legend has it that you of course making everything look so much bigger and better
and more wonderful than life, Stan wanted him to look like the guy in the street and therefore Steve
Ditko did the interiors, but I know they used some of your covers. Maybe you could clarify for us, although
I know how modest you are, try to solve for us without hurting anybody, some of the mystery of your
involvement at that time in the genesis of Spider-Man and Amazing Fantasy #15, and then of course it
departed and went another way. But you were there at the beginning. Please tell us about it, Jack.
KIRBY: I can tell you that I was deeply involved with creating Spider-Man. And I can’t go any further
than that, really. Because there’ve been so many variations and different things done with Spider-Man.
But I can tell you at the beginning I was deeply involved with him.
KNIGHT: Well, let’s turn then to the environment which may be
equally as important, the environment out of which Spider-Man was
created. And of course you were involved in the historic partnership
with Stan Lee at Marvel, and so what was the working environment
like there? How was it different from the other companies? What was
the Merry Marvel Marching Society like?
KIRBY: Well, I
didn’t consider
it merry. In
those days it
was a profes-
sional type
thing. You
turned in your
ideas and you
got your wages
and you took
them home. It
was a very
simple affair.
It’s nothing
that could be
dramatized or glorified or glamorized in any way.
It was a very, very simple affair. I created the
situation and I panelized him, I did him panel by
panel and I did everything but put the words in
the balloons. But all of it was mine except the
words in the balloons.
REESE: But Jack, what about these legendary
story conferences of you and Stan or Stan and
whomever acting the stories out in the office,
jumping up on the desks and so forth, making
things considerably more lively than when it was
just an office consisting of Stan and fabulous Flo
Steinberg, having people stick their faces in the
door from Magazine Management, going, “Hurry
up, little elves, Santa will be coming soon.”
KIRBY: I’d have to disagree with that. It wasn’t
like that at all. It may have been like that after I
shut the door and went home.
KNIGHT: Well, listen, we’re gonna open a door, a
very special surprise to Jack and let me mention
this is Earth Watch on WBAI in New York. I’m
Robert Knight here with Warren Reese and also
with Max Schmeid in the studio, and we’re
speaking with Jack Kirby live. And now we can Jack’s Ringmaster page from his Valentine’s Day sketchbook for wife Roz, and (above) two storyboard concepts
announce the very special surprise guest that we for a never-produced Roxie’s Raiders animated series.
67
proud of, and I’m proud of you for it.
KIRBY: I have to thank you for helping me to keep that style, Stanley,
and helping me to evolve all that and I’m certain that whatever we
did together, we got sales for Marvel and I—
LEE: I think it was more than that, Jack. We certainly got the sales but
whatever we did together and no matter who did what—and I guess
that’s something that’ll be argued forever—but I think that the product
that was produced was really even more than a sum of its parts. I
think there was some slight magic that came into effect when we
worked together, and I am very happy that we’ve had that experience.
KIRBY: Well, I was never sorry for it, Stanley. It was a great experience
for me and certainly if the product was good, that was my satisfaction,
and I’ve felt like that and I think it’s the feeling of every good profes-
sional. And one of the reasons I respect you is the fact that you’re
certainly a good professional and you’re certainly fond of a good
product, and I feel that’s the mark of all of us.
LEE: You notice I never interrupt you when you’re saying something
nice about me.
REESE: Let me say something nice about Stan Lee, the editorial piston
behind the motor of Marvel Comics, and of course Stan Lee has
been active in so many other areas. Stan, what are some of the
things that you are proudest of and what are you involved in now?
LEE: Well, actually, I guess I’m proud of just about—I’m the kind of
guy I’m proud of everything that has succeeded and I have totally
forgotten anything that might have failed. Right now I’m—New
World Pictures has bought Marvel Comics and they’re really a great
outfit. Obviously they do motion pictures. In fact, they changed
their name recently to New World Entertainment. They do television
series, video cassettes, and I’ve gotten involved in all of those aspects
have for tonight’s program, your colleague in arms, Stan Lee. Good of the business as well as their animation studio, so I’m only really
morning, Stan, are you— peripherally involved in the comics and I’ve never been happier
because I guess I like being busy and I’ve never been busier.
STAN LEE: Hi, how you doing? I just, I want to wish Jack a happy
birthday. This is a helluva coincidence. I’m in New York and I was REESE: And out of the fairness doctrine, what Jack are you currently
tuning in the radio and there I hear him, talking about Marvel and I doing?
figured well, I might as well call and not let this occasion go by with- KIRBY: I’m probably involved in the same sort of thing.
out saying many happy returns, Jack.
REESE: Oh, my God, that means that the two of you who indelibly
KIRBY: Well, Stanley, I want to thank you
for calling and I hope you’re in good health
and I hope you stay in good health.
LEE: I’m doing my best, and the same to
you. You know, you were talking earlier
about your drawing and people sometimes
criticized your figures and so forth. I always
felt that the most important thing about
your drawings—I remember when I was a
kid and I first saw Captain America, it
wasn’t the correctness of the anatomy, but
it was the emotion that you put in. To me,
nobody could convey emotion and drama
the way you could. I didn’t care if the drawing
was all out of whack because that wasn’t
important. You got your point across and
nobody could ever draw a hero like you
could. And I just want to say without getting
too saccharin, that one of the marks I think
of a really true great artist is he has his own
style. And you certainly had and still have
your own style and it’s a style that nobody
has even been able to come close to. And I (top) Stan Lee’s earliest work was writing filler text pages for Timely’s comics, often adorned with Kirby art.
think that’s something you can be very (above) Creepy two-page spread by Kirby, for Captain America #8 (Nov. 1941).
68
changed the history of comics when you were both in that field, have motion pictures of today are so much different than they were then,
a shot at changing the course of animation perhaps. and the same evolvement has really taken place in comic books.
KIRBY: Well, I feel that productive people are always doing something KIRBY: Well, I think Stanley is correct on that and of course, the
productive, and speaking for myself I’ve never stopped. standards have changed, and the standards have changed in all the
fields. And I’ll agree with what Stanley says of all the facets of enter-
REESE: Well, let me now desaccharinize the conversation and let’s
tainment because he understands it as well as I do. Whatever is evolving,
get down to both of your assessments of the state of comics today. I
I couldn’t put my finger on it but it’s certainly different from the
mean, enough can never be said about what you have done in the
black-and-white type of thing that we did in what you refer to as the
history of comics,
Golden Age.
but I’d like for
some specific com- REESE: Are there
ments, naming of things that you
names in regard to look at with inter-
the changes that est these days?
have taken place in
LEE: Oh, sure.
comics such as the
Now there’s a DC
new approach to
series called the
Batman, for
Watchmen which I
instance. The, the
think was
current Spider-
absolutely superb.
Man series. The
There’s the work
introduction of
that John Byrne
ambiguity, conflict
has been doing,
and contradiction
the work that
in issues and ethics
Frank Miller has
today. Do you have
been doing. There
any views on that?
are so many new
LEE: Who do you artists coming up
want first? that are very
sophisticated and
REESE: You, since
they’re very dra-
you spoke first.
matic and they’re
LEE: Okay. Well, very cinematic. A
actually, I think lot of them write
that we had plenty and draw, they
of conflict and have their own
when we were styles. And my big
starting our early regret really is I
strips, certainly don’t have time to
there was conflict read the books the
in the Fantastic way I used to.
Four and Spider-
KIRBY: Yeah, but
Man and all of
the younger peo-
them. And I think
ple have absorbed
Marvel sort of
a lot more than we
pioneered playing
did, Stan. I think
up the characteri-
that’s what it’s all
zation more and
about today. Their
playing up the
understanding of
personal problems
life and they’re a
of the heroes,
lot more under-
making the heroes
standing of them-
more believable
selves and what
because they were
they produce is on
more realistic and
a very realistic
more human. (above) Jack’s Spider-Man page from the Valentine’s sketchbook he drew for wife Roz in the late 1970s.
scale. And I don’t
However, today
think there is anything visually around us that the younger people
what has happened—and it’s a natural evolution—today they’ve
haven’t noticed. That’s why I respect the younger people.
gone many steps beyond what we started doing in those days. I
think the stories primarily are much more complex, they’re more LEE: You know, it’s much more a visual era that we live in now than
adult, they tackle subjects that we couldn’t dream of tackling in the it was when we were starting because with television today—I don’t
early days. When Marvel started, our stories were very much like the know if anybody has brought this up, but comics are like the last
motion pictures of those days. Today the comics, especially Marvel bastion, the last defense against creeping illiteracy. If not for comics,
comics, are very much like the motion pictures of today. Well, the I don’t know how many young people there would be who just
69
Kirby’s late 1960s Marvelmania
buttons, and (below) his Dr. Doom
ad art to promote them.
[Editor’s Note: Here is the crux of the Lee/Kirby “Who did what?” dispute, clearly
spelled out, thanks to Jack and Stan conversing. While both men, at least initially,
were involved in the plotting (later, it was mostly Jack doing plotting on many occa-
sions), Jack saw his own margin notes as “writing the story”, since he was directing
the action and attitudes of the characters. Stan saw his dialogue as “writing the
story”, since he added the characterization to the images on the page, fleshing out
the characters and making them come to life during the reading process.
Both men are right! You could argue that it’s still a story without the other man’s
input (ie. Jack’s drawing and rough notes alone could be viewed as the equivalent
of a silent movie—he commented in this interview about how his comics have
always been silent films—while Stan’s finished dialogue and captions could certainly be turned into a
standalone novel, sans art). But the combination is what made it so special, and so much more than it
would’ve been with only one man’s input. Stan’s comment, “Did you ever read one of the stories after it was
finished?” is telling, as was Jack’s about, “...it was the action I was interested in.” Both men saw their input
as invaluable, and the other’s as, if not secondary, certainly something that could’ve been done effectively by
someone else. If you look at each man’s work with others—and by themselves—it’s clear they both were
wrong: when Lee and Kirby worked together, there was nothing else like it.]
70
just as Jack and I did years ago, you try to keep your stories contem- KIRBY: I wasn’t allowed to write—.
porary and if something is happening that you’re involved in or you
LEE: —did you ever read one of the stories after it was finished? I
think the public is involved in, it’s very hard to keep a smattering of
don’t think you did. I don’t think you ever read one of my stories. I
that out of what you’re writing.
think you were always busy drawing the next one. You never read
REESE: First of all to both of you gents, I have regards from fabulous the book when it was finished.
Flo Steinberg who is too shy to be in the studio today. She lives
KIRBY: Dialogue, Stanley.
about ten blocks from here, but sends happy birthday wishes to you,
Jack, and love to both of you. LEE: Huh?
LEE: Ah, that’s terrific, and the same to her. Fabulous Flo thought it KNIGHT: Let me get in there with—.
was merry when we were working there.
KIRBY: I wrote my own dialogue. And that, I think that’s the way
REESE: Yes, she did. Now, both of you before were talking a bit people are. It was insignificant... So whatever was written in them
about the responsibility of creators as they create. There is much was—well, you know, it was the action I was interested in.
controversy going on these days over company-imposed ratings
LEE: I know, and I really think—and look, Jack, nobody has more
systems which do not say that people cannot have explicit sex and
respect for you than I do, and you know that. But I don’t think you
violence, but simply have to have a warning on the cover. And these
ever felt that the dialogue was that important. And I think you felt,
people seem to be very alarmed as though nobody in history every
“Well, it doesn’t matter, anybody can put the dialogue in, it’s what
produced a good story without having that type of material in there,
and I submit that they need only look back to what you
wonderful gentlemen did together, to what Bill Everett
did on the Sub-Mariner, indeed what some other people
of contemporary times are doing. I would like your com-
ments on that. I would also like to put to you gentlemen
that what made your work so tremendous—when it
comes right down to it, it doesn’t matter who exactly did
what, although it would be interesting to know whether
or not Galactus’ exit speech in FF #50 was an example of
Jack’s dialogue or Stan’s, but you—
LEE: Oh, I’ll say this: Every word of dialogue in those
scripts was mine. Every story.
REESE: And I don’t want to get into controversy about
that. What I want to stress to you and to anyone who
would be hearing this is that you two gents together,
when you said the whole equals more than the sum of its
parts, it is very true. I think that that was the success
behind the Beatles, behind the Byrds, behind many of the
rock groups. There seems to be—
KIRBY: I can tell you that I wrote a few lines myself above
every panel that I—
REESE: Yes, I’ve seen those.
LEE: They weren’t printed in the books.
REESE: All right, look, both of you, hey, kids, both of you
guys—.
LEE: Jack isn’t wrong by his own rights because Jack,
answer me truthfully—
Unused Kirby layouts for John Romita, for Daredevil. This falls somewhere between page 8 of DD #13, and page 11 of DD #14.
Stan wrapped up Kirby’s sub-plot about Matt Murdock being dead in just one panel (shown here), perhaps due to Romita no longer needing Jack’s layouts.
71
Jack and I did the strips, there was no ego problem; we were
just doing the best we could at the time.
KNIGHT: Well, ego is the fuel of creativity, and I’m very
proud to have been able to have both Jack Kirby and Stan
Lee live on Earth Watch on WBAI in New York. My name is
Robert Knight joined by Warren Reese and Max Schmeid
and as we close this program, I would like each of you to
make a concluding statement. First you, Stan, and then
you, Jack, because it’s your birthday.
LEE: Okay. Well, since it is Jack’s birthday, I want to make–
I wish I had had time to prepare something. I didn’t. But I
just want to say that Jack has, I think, made a tremendous
mark on American culture if not on world culture, and I
think he should be incredibly proud and pleased with him-
self and I want to wish him all the best, him and his wife
Roz and his family, and I hope that ten years from now I’ll
be in some town somewhere listening to a tribute to his
80th birthday, and I hope I’ll have an opportunity to call at
that time and wish him well then too. Jack, I love you.
KIRBY: Well, the same here, Stan. Thank you very much,
Stan. But Warren, are you there?
REESE: Yes, I am, Jack.
KIRBY: Now, listen, you can understand now how things
really were, and of course I want to thank you for inviting
me on your show. Thank everybody for their courtesy and
it was very pleasant to talk to you.
At the time of this interview, Jack had mostly
stopped creating new characters, but a REESE: Well, I, I must inject this one point of disagreement
wealth of unused ones were still in his files, with you, Jack Kirby. And that is, it is we who have you to
such as this one, “DAMID.” thank, you and Stan.
SCHMEID: Amen for that. Happy birthday, Jack, and thank
you Stan.
KIRBY: Thank you, guys, you’re really great and if I said
I’m drawing that matters.” And maybe you’re right; I don’t agree anymore it would be—oh, listen, you guys are wonderful.
with it, but maybe you’re right. KNIGHT: All right. Thank you both. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby on
KIRBY: No, I’m only trying to say that I think that the human being Earth Watch. ★
is very important. If one man is writing and drawing and doing a [Barry Pearl, who transcribed this interview, has released The Essential
strip, it should come from an individual. I believe that you should Marvel Age Reference Book, 1961-1977. This 1250-page PDF covers
have the opportunity to do the entire thing yourself. every single comic and every story of the Marvel Age. Along with over 1000
REESE: Gentlemen, what we’re seeing here— images from the actual comics there are: title, date, number, summary,
related links and full credits (editor, author, artists, plotters, letterers, etc.)
KIRBY: Create your own story. to all the stories and covers of the Marvel Age, plus comments from the
REESE: —is part of the inner dynamics, the bit of conflict from creators themselves. There’s
which obviously you complemented one another, held one another a chronological 130-page
in check and a great product emerged. I submit not only on behalf history of the Timely/
of you but to creators of today that the success of Marvel and the Atlas/Marvel Era (1900-
success of Bill Everett’s Sub-Mariner and the success of almost any- 1976) which features the
thing that was really great had to do with the attention to science, publication dates for every
to characterization, to detail, to verisimilitude, to keeping a greater comic starting with
attention to the characters than to the egos of the people creating Marvel Comics #1. It also
them and, you know, signing autographs at conventions. And that features a separate list of
that pretense, trying to make the thing seem as real as possible, the guest appearances of
having characters grow, having characters die, having Reed and Sue every Marvel hero and
get married and have a child—whom by the way should be adult by villain in their published
now and dating one of the X-Women—is not only showing the chronological order, plus a
attention to the detail of the characters, but as an insurance that full list of creators’ credits,
readers will not outgrow the comics and will stay with them, because audio video presentations,
it is not an immutable fact of life that you outgrow comics at 13. and much more. The
digital book is $29.99 and
LEE: You know, when you mention an ego problem, the funny thing is available at http://for-
is, I’m afraid those problems are only cropping up now. I think when bushman.blogspot.com/]
72
An Eye- evolution!
popping
Incidental
Iconography
An ongoing analysis of Kirby’s visual shorthand,
and how he inadvertently used it to develop his characters,
by Sean Kleefeld
ot a lot is said about Jack Kirby’s early comic strip work that he any further changes or, apparently, arguments from Elmo.
N did for H.T. Elmo and the Lincoln Features Syndicate. Jack
himself didn’t talk about it much (understandable in light of
his long list of more impressive creations later in his career) and it
This taller version of Socko was more conducive to Jack’s
drawing style anyway. With the relatively stubby legs and arms,
actions scenes seemed stiff and awkward. A more lithe Socko
simply wasn’t that large or accomplished of an outfit for many other allowed Jack a greater fluidity of motion and, while most of the
people to discuss it either. But let’s take a look at one of the strips strip’s jokes were verbal, Jack was able to add some more punch to
Jack created while he was there: Socko the Seadog. them with exaggerated actions and expressions.
Elmo’s general approach was to duplicate something that was
popular, but syndicate it at a much lower cost than the original. That
the quality that made the original popular often wasn’t there was
immaterial; it was a cheap alternative for smaller newspapers with
smaller budgets. It must have been a no-brainer for Elmo, after
hiring an artist who just came from working on the insanely popular
Popeye cartoons (a 1938 poll ranked Popeye more popular than
Mickey Mouse), to have Jack develop a Popeye knock-off strip.
In the initial strips, Socko looks and acts almost exactly like
Popeye. He wears the exact same dark sailor uniform and, with the
exception of not having overly-developed forearms, has the same
build. The only appreciable difference between the
two is in the face; Socko wears a very full beard.
(As an aside, the Socko strips were sold as
a complete package to these smaller
papers. Whenever a new paper signed
on, they would be sent everything,
starting with the very first strip. Thus, Also of note is that Jack was just entering his twenties when he
different papers carrying Socko might worked on these strips. He was far from the master comics creator
publish the same stories months apart. I that we often recognize him as. This is particularly noticeable in the
found one running the strip as late as changes to Socko’s beard. In the initial strips, it’s bushy and drawn
1941, two years after Jack had left Lincoln! with a very scratchy, uneven quickness (above). It changes style and
Fortunately, Jack numbered all of the strips, length from panel to panel. Just a bunch of slashes around where
so their order is easy to determine.) Socko’s chin might be. As time goes on, though, Jack stylizes it a bit
Interestingly, in Socko’s first appearances, his more. It’s shortened and trimmed, and the lines become more
bulbous nose is drawn very similarly to Popeye’s. But deliberate and regular (as shown at left). I suspect this comes more
within a few strips, Jack redraws it in a manner more akin to Olive from Jack still learning his craft, and streamlining how he works
Oyl’s, much longer and thinner. Presumably, Elmo was concerned against daily deadlines, as opposed to a design decision like the nose
that it bore too much of a resemblance to E.C. Segar’s character, and was. Ultimately, it gives Socko a bit more distinctiveness, and makes
might lead to legal action. Given how early in the strip’s run this Jack look more like a professional artist.
changed, I doubt anyone representing Segar and/or Fleischer Studios This is essentially Jack’s first professional work as a comic artist.
had actually seen the strip, much less threatened legal action. For whatever he may have learned working at Fleischer Studios
However, as Jack continued with the strip, he deviated more and before, his Lincoln strips are where he really seems to learn a lot
more from the original “inspiration.” Socko’s body as a whole grew about actually making comics. His work
taller and leaner, coming closer to typical human proportions, though gets more and more polished as the strip
he kept his somewhat uncomfortably over-sized hands throughout goes on and, while he doesn’t get to play
the strip’s run. Jack also had Socko ditch the Navy blues he (and much with the layout or formal structure of
Popeye) started with, and gave him a striped shirt with a slightly the medium, we can see how he began his
undersized peacoat that allowed his long shirt sleeves to stick out a approach to designing his own characters
bit. These changes were evidently enough that Jack returned to and streamlining them for the stories he
drawing Socko with the bulbous nose reminiscent of Popeye without was trying to tell. ★
73
Retrospective
Key ’50s Career Moments
by John Morrow
1957 1960
• April-May: A combination of an economic downturn and • June: Sick Magazine #1 is published, edited by
the loss of his distributor causes Martin Goodman to Joe Simon.
cancel all but 16 of Atlas’ • September: Daughter Lisa
titles, and to stop assigning Kirby is born.
new jobs for several months
until existing inventory was
used up. This event came to 1961
be known as The Atlas • Early 1961: Kirby produces
Implosion, and the loss of work for Classics Illustrated.
work greatly affected Kirby.
• August 8, 1961: Fantastic
• July: Alarming Tales #1 is Four #1 is published.
published by Harvey Comics.
1962
1958 • June (August cover date):
Amazing Fantasy #15
• Early 1958: An agent from
the George Matthew Adams published, featuring a Kirby
Service asks DC Comics cover, on the first appear-
editor Jack Schiff for a ance of Spider-Man. ★
science-fiction comic for his
syndicate. Schiff would bring
in Kirby and Dick and Dave
Wood to create Sky Masters
75
Animatters
Kirby... King of Beasts!
by Marc Nadel
77
First on the scene, in issue #35, was Dragon Man (left), but he
didn’t really come into his own until issue #44, as he pursued
Medusa and battled Gorgon. Combining mythology, paleontology,
zoology, and genetic engineering, Kirby’s android looked like no
character before or since. Perhaps 12 feet tall, with a massive ptero-
dactyl-like wingspan and a tail as long as his height, he sported a
scaly version of the Hulk’s torso, including those omnipresent
shorts. But it’s his magnificent head that is a triumph of Kirby’s
design sense and imagination, plus, I suspect, some research. His
Surfer, wielder of the Power Cosmic (as he keeps telling us) tried to attacked the Surfer, as well. The Inhumans and Silver Surfer story-
retrieve it, but couldn’t pull it from those jaws. In order not to hurt lines were the comics that redefined the medium. Jack and Stan
the contrarian canine’s canines, the metallic messiah finally blasted packed in more action, exciting new characters, and no-limits
the board to make him let go. Luckily, Lockjaw was just playing tug plotlines than ever before.
of war, because he could have teleported and buried the board any- Time marched on, and Jack Kirby marched on over to DC. His
where in the solar system, where it might never have been unearthed, Fourth World epic expanded the mythic quality of that universe, and
or un-Saturned. That is, unless Lockjaw got really hungry. it inspired storylines that are still rolling out today. The revitalized
This issue also had never-before-seen anthropomorphized Newsboy Legion had a monstrous mascot appropriately named Angry
Inhumans: The centaur Stallior, a Lion Man (predating Kamandi’s Charlie, and the new Sandman had his own nightmarish nemeses.
cast), and Timberius, an Ent-like creation. Later in the book, two But it was in the world of Kamandi that Jack dreamed up new animal
unnamed avian characters, one songbird-like, and one more hawkish, characters. Part Planet of the Apes, part Tarzan, but all Kirby,
Kamandi’s anthropomorphized supporting cast was as
distinctive in personality as it was visually. Prince Tuftan,
tiger pirates, thuggish apes, menacing man-bats, and
brigadier bulldogs were more or less Moreau-lads with
animal heads. Harkening back to Atlas monsters and early
Challengers stories, there were colossal crabs and oversized
octopi. But one completely original character in this opus
was given a memorable Kirby name, and unique Kirby
anatomy: the giant grasshopper, Kliklak. It is his stream-
lined design (combining an immense insect head, a torpedo-
like torso and somewhat humanoid, muscular legs) that
makes him so memorable. In a sequence involving the
serpentine, Scrooge-like storeowner Sacker, Kliklak was first
79
introduced as a dangerous captive called “Devil”. But when
Kamandi enters the scene, the storyline becomes a cinematic
pastiche, beginning with the equine classics Black Beauty and
National Velvet: boy meets untamable steed, boy gains the
animal’s trust, and they enter the big race. Then it morphs
into Ben-Hur and Spartacus, with a deadly rigged race that
devolves into gladiatorial combat. Sadly, the final movie
homage is to Old Yeller. Jack created an outrageous, almost
alien character, but there is real emotional impact when
Kamandi shoots the wounded beast to end his suffering.
One other DC sequence that should be noted is in the
one-shot Atlas. Despite the title character’s mythological ori-
gins in ancient Greece, Kirby created an earlier, unspecified
era as the setting. Otherworldly architecture and costuming
abound, of course, but Kirby placed the time frame well
before the parameters of any known civilization. A prehis-
toric brontops (a rhino with a slingshot horn) attacks the
mighty Atlas in a splash page which pulsates with the impact.
Drama King
Jack Kirby created stories that can be told into eterni-
ty—since he saw beyond reality, beyond the future
(right) Ryan Dunlavey’s
kracklin’ show poster. any of us lives in. The tales he heard his imagination
telling are still continuing, on worldwide movie-
screens this year, from the microcosm of Ant-Man to
(next page, top)
Dapper Stan brainstorms the grand galactic canvas of Avengers 2. But the
while Kirby does the story he lived himself can be told from new perspec-
planet-lifting tives for every generation he means something to,
(Steven Rattazzi and and it was told in 2014 not in a multiplex but on an
Nat Cassidy, from left).
Photo: Hunter Canning
intimate stage.
Crystal Skillman & Fred Van Lente’s play King
(next page, bottom) Kid Kirby debuted at Brooklyn’s indie theater, The
Kirby back-in-time to the Brick, last summer, and brought Kirby, his contem-
drawing board, Fleischer poraries and their wartime and mod-midcentury
Studios, 1937 (Rattazzi). context to life in a way to match the worlds Kirby
Photo: Crystal Skillman
himself fashioned from nothingness to greatness.
(below) Cosmic Cubicle: Skillman’s name is well-known to followers of
Skillman and Van Lente leading-edge drama, a frenetic and empathic
(left to right) create playwright who understands the inner lives of
on a stage of sorts, the outcasts in the geek world and many other
Drama Book Shop’s 2014
social fringes. Van Lente is a familiar name to
window-based Write Out
Front event in NYC. most people reading this magazine, a rediscoverer of the
Photo: Micheline Auger same wonder that Kirby tapped to create his own characters
and stories, from fascinating re-creations of them like Van over again and, for the real people who
Lente’s X Men Noir to revitalizations of other preexisting lived it and those they’re heroes to, get the story very right.
properties as varied as Magnus, Robot Fighter and even The Jack Kirby Collector spoke with the playwrights at a
“characters” like Plato and Ayn Rand (in Van Lente’s award- Korean restaurant and outside Madison Square Garden in the
winning edu-comic Action heart of Kirby’s multi-ethnic, entertainment-mecca
Philosophers with Manhattan on January 14, 2015.
artist/co-creator Ryan THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: In some ways, the past can
Dunlavey), as well as change, with shifting perspectives and new knowledge coming
creator-owned originals to light. King Kirby painted a vivid portrait of what was at
like the current multi- stake for Kirby the man—his determination to be a provider,
generational (and and to be reasonable, drawn from his deprived tenement
incarnational) childhood and the murderous WWII experience he had trouble
romance/thriller making sense of, even when his family may have wanted him
Resurrectionists. to fight the corporations and his sense of self may sometimes
Van Lente have been too stubborn. The play also put the Kirby family
researched Kirby’s life lawsuit in context for many people who may have heard that
and Skillman chan- Marvel/Disney was going to court but not been familiar with
neled Kirby’s and his what was behind it—right before the settlement happened.
foes’ and loved ones’ Is King Kirby an evolving document, based on what we come
character in the to understand of Kirby and what happens with his legacy?
married couple’s first
full collaboration, to sold-out houses, added FRED VAN LENTE: I don’t think the settlement really changes
performances and acclaim in The New York Times and else- the action or the point of the play that much. The settlement
where. It’s a tale you’ve seen parts and aspects of told many doesn’t do Kirby much good since he didn’t know about it and
times in this publication, and from many points of view; it’s a wasn’t able to participate in his lifetime. That’s not to say
story that can only go one way for Kirby, and Stan, and Roz that what Marvel/Disney did wasn’t a good thing, it definitely
and the others, but can be understood more by us as we go was, and is something they should be commended for. But I
through history. In King Kirby, Skillman & Van Lente tell it all think the play can stay the way it is—the play is about him,
82
after all; it’s not about his legacy, or about the cosmic significance of what
happened to him; it’s just about this guy and what he did…which is not to
say the play won’t change [in other ways] moving forward...
CRYSTAL SKILLMAN: We’re thinking of working on the play, we have some
notes; we’re talking to a few theaters and if we have a different run where
it’s not part of a festival, we have more time. [King Kirby debuted as one of
many parts of the Brick’s fast-paced Comic Book Theater Festival Issue 2.]
A lot was packed into the storytelling in the beginning, and it was amazing
how it flew, and in a way captured Kirby’s frenetic way of drawing and story-
telling, so we don’t want to lose that. But we also want to spend a little
more time in discovery moments with him. It’s more about how people will
listen to it, understand [his life]. Perception is important; the dramatic
question of the play is, What is creation. Collaboration is very important to
creation; [who contributed what] is a tense question between collaborators.
Here what makes it so compelling is that Kirby’s artwork is what we
remember more than the actual words. And I love words, I’m all about the in the portrait of Kirby in that it shows him talking about this hero as if to
words, I’m a dramatist, but I did go to visual art school and I understand him, the hero is a real guy, as if he’s someone Kirby knows. And what
the power of an image, and it’s very true, it is worth a thousand words. So Kirby’s saying is about what the hero’s personality traits are, not what his
when you think “Fantastic Four” you think of Jack’s artwork, and that is “powers” are, which is a strength of this play; we see Kirby’s character-
storytelling, and that’s what the conversation is—drawing is storytelling, and istics—including the pictures in his own mind, like the dream-scene
what does that mean? That question still remains and is very exciting; even where Stan is even much more of a celebrity-hound than he was, through
more exciting with the [settlement], which sheds a whole new light on it. Jack’s not always reliable eyes.
TJKC: Was that visuality that’s central to comics a challenge in framing the SKILLMAN: For me, the conversation of comics in this play is less of a
story, or did the visual aspect of most theater itself make it natural? fantasia and a little more life-based. People who knew nothing of comics,
coming to the play, just really took to the character and spirit of Jack Kirby.
VAN LENTE: There was a version of the play that was a lot more meta; I
He’s just this dynamic, exciting character. And people listening to the podcast
originally wrote the play in 2002 when it incorporated these sort-of pseudo
[see below!] say, okay, [Rattazzi] doesn’t “sound” like Kirby—but he is
New Gods characters and was more “comic-booky,” but Crystal helped as
Jack Kirby, he has an essence, a spirit. That’s what we want to capture.
co-writer in stripping it down to its essence, since, again, it really is about
Steven isn’t imitating Jack, he’s evoking his spirit, and feelings. Seeing him
this one guy. Our director, John Hurley, had a lot of great ideas; we had some
struggle, and seeing why he struggles, in a very grounded way, is exciting.
projected images; our lead, Steven Rattazzi [the voice of Doctor Orpheus
on Venture Bros.] went to animation school so he can actually draw very TJKC: You spoke before about the cadence of the play’s storytelling
well, and drew onstage at the drawing table as Kirby. For a proposed new matching the slam-bang rhythms of a Kirby story…
production [location to be announced!] the director has a great idea involving
SKILLMAN: Fred helps with that; I trust him as a sounding-board to really
using the drawing board onstage as a projector, and projecting images
understand how much the audience needs to read or hear at what
upward onto the ceiling, which I thought was a super-clever idea.
moment. Exposition can be too much or too little. Fred’s storytelling is very
SKILLMAN: When people read the script it’s evoking a lot of thought as to clear but never hits you over the head; there’s always a lot of discovery and
what directors want to do with it, and we’re excited to see other interpre- maybe that’s why we enjoy writing together so much, we both like writing
tations with other companies and other countries. But the script is strong to make the scene about discovery for the reader or the audience—we
with it resting on the human emotion. It’s about your imagination bringing don’t want the reader or the audience to say, “Great, this scene has started,
it to life onstage. There are these moments where, you know, Jack’s drawing I know how it’s going to end!” — then we are pretty unhappy with ourselves.
and all of a sudden feels like he’s fighting, and his earlier moments on the
TJKC: There are special sensitivities involved in fiction that features real
Lower East Side come
people who are still with us or in many people’s recent memory. What is
back to him while he’s
your approach to that, and what can you even afford to be concerned
creating Captain
about for this creative, historical document?
America, and we’ll
probably see many VAN LENTE: Jack’s son Neal wrote us a very nice e-mail when our New
different versions of York Times review came out; this play is open for the family to read when-
that same image, and ever they want to, we welcome that.
that will be pretty excit-
SKILLMAN: From that I feel like it was very clear that the story being told
ing for us.
was important [to them], and I can’t even imagine the joy from the settle-
TJKC: This reminds me ment and what that means, it’s just really important for the legacy and for
of how imagination fills the family. Also, how the Stan-and-Kirby relationship is treated in the play,
in the details of the I think it’s really…you like the character of Stan, even when he’s very mat-
final scene, where he’s ter-of-fact about the mistakes Kirby made that he felt led him to where he
envisioning a Cosmic is; it’s a very balanced play where also you see someone who so badly
Carson story, and we are wants to be a part of this and has a skill, and what that means to him. And
not seeing what he’s because you can see both sides, even though the play is through Kirby’s eyes,
drawing, but he’s setting Stan as a character is very dynamic and not villainized in any way. People
forth the whole story, who don’t read the play assume that, but people who have seen the play
which goes beyond understand that’s not true. And that there’s very much a mentorship-like
“painting a picture in thing I think Stan was looking for from Kirby, and whenever he talks about
our mind,” it really fills Kirby he gets that look in his eye; I assume that that’s still there because
83
he really SKILLMAN: You have to research just enough to let your imagination then
admired Kirby, soar and capture what the play is saying.
so I hope the
TJKC: Early on you had expressed concern about whether the WWII parts
play captures
of the play overwhelmed it, which I didn’t think at all; people tell about
that as well,
Kirby’s constant war-stories and how he would startle out of his sleep with
because I think
WWII nightmares for the rest of his life, so it took up more of his life than
that’s very true
it does of the play—so, a good balance, and showing something that
and very beau-
defined him.
tiful, and it’s
very true to art. SKILLMAN: Especially that, to really understand Captain America is to
understand that time. That’s a huge wealth of history to understand. We
TJKC: Roz is
had a war with a lot of shades to it, but there was very much Evil and trying
an invincible
to stop the Evil, and if anything, we were too late to that battle. We don’t
presence in the
have that anymore; the world is a lot harder to discern and understand, so
play—we see
to know that Captain America came from this time, when Good vs. Evil was
her taking on some of Kirby’s inking in the 1950s and believing in him and
actually a conversation…what is that when we evoke that now? We can
trying to strengthen him—and you’ve talked about being excited to discover
evoke it in a way that maybe isn’t accurate. But when you’ve gone to war
more about her in the story of these lives you were telling.
you have a completely different experience, and I just really love those
SKILLMAN: I was surprised to learn of her contribution; she didn’t actually stories. This amazing story of the hotel, I couldn’t get enough of listening
say “I’m an inker,” it wasn’t like that, she was more like “It was my birthday to it; to me, it was really about his spirit of endurance. [The play portrays a
and all the inkers threw a party because we were all there inking,” and I private struggle for territory as Kirby and a German private fight for the
was like, “What does this mean!” and I was looking back and thinking, this right to rest in a bombed-out deserted hotel; already more saddening and
makes sense, she was a part of all this. And I thought, how exciting. She surreal than any dramatization.] There’s no particular agenda or mission,
was such a dynamic character, the more I read about her. I hope to go it’s simply about survival. Even Kirby in that story makes light of it but as
more into her and Kirby’s relationship because I just think it’s lovely. It was he does so you just get a sense of, I know what it’s like, to see this other
very inspirational how supportive and amazing she was. She also seemed side, and let’s escape into something else, let’s use it and make it some-
to just love artwork; she was very knowledgeable about the other artists thing better. That’s what he always wanted to do, and that’s what I relate
and their work. I was stunned by how in- to, because life is so hard, and if only the artist
depth she was involved with the business, can make it something transcendent. ★
and going to the cons, and her dedication
to the family. They were quite a tight-knit
[King Kirby will hopefully be marching into a the-
group, so to get that e-mail from Neal
ater near you soon and through the years; for
was a big deal, because I feel like it’s just
now, the comic retail & culture powerhouse
a lovely thing where, sometimes comic
Midtown Comics has an audio podcast of the
book creators might be more about the
entire play at this address to give an idea and
art, and [for Kirby] it was about the art
spark more dreaming: http://blog.midtown-
for the worlds he was creating, with the
comics.com/midtown-comics-podcast-king-kirby-
people he loved.
audio-play/8544/]
TJKC: To what extent did the actors
research their characters, and to what
degree did they use their imagination to build these personalities?
VAN LENTE: Steven, from his work on The Venture Bros. and others, (top) Martin Goodman ponders whether Hitler can sue a comic company as Simon &
knows quite a lot about vocal acting, and I think he definitely made a con- Kirby think not (Joseph Mathers, Rattazzi and Timothy McCown Reynolds, from left).
Photo: Crystal Skillman
scious decision that he wanted to create Kirby as a character in the play,
which is what he is; when you put him in the play, you’re not bringing him (center) This man’s artform: Private Kirby gets a lecture in heroics from Patton
himself (McCown Reynolds and Rattazzi, from left). Photo: Hunter Canning
back from the dead, [laughs] this is a character in a fictional piece.
(bottom) The real-life romance of Roz and Jack (Amy Lee Pearsall and Rattazzi,
SKILLMAN: He was excited about the play. We knew each other from a from left). Photo: Hunter Canning
play-reading we did a while ago, he was in a reading of The Vigil
[Skillman’s fascinating drama about medieval torture and modern-day
terrorism], and I kept thinking of him in this role, I was kind-of obsessed,
praying and lighting candles, [laughs] and then he was captivated by Jack
Kirby as a person and then he loved the play. That’s when Fred and I got
super-excited, because when Steven said “This is amazing,” we knew we
were on to something. Now Fred, who had often asked, “Why are ya going
to rehearsal all the time?” [laughs] for my other plays, grew to love the
rehearsal process, and I think a big part of it was, he was their access to
research. Fred would bring in Kirby Collectors, he would bring in panels, all
sorts of artwork that would help inspire the actors, and they absolutely
devoured that, it was very important to them.
VAN LENTE: My buddy Paul Tobin tweeted out a video of Jack talking
about some of his wartime experience, and I know Steven listened to that
and paid quite a bit of attention to it. The stuff’s out there, the challenge is
always not drowning in it.
84
Foundations
The Mysteries of the Deep
by John Morrow
ew teams in the history of comics have produced work as beautiful as Jack Kirby and
(below) Jack had
Wally Wood ink the first
two weeks’ strips, so
syndicates could see a
finished product.
F Wallace Wood. On the surface, they would seem to be a mis-match: Kirby with his bold,
blocky anatomy and in-your-face action, and Wood (right), with his delicate linework and
detailed and dramatic lighting effects. But put them together, and you have what might be
consider exactly half of each artist—they play off each other’s strengths perfectly.
85
On these pages, you’ll
see all the Surf Hunter
samples I’ve found, in the
order they seem to read
best. Syndicates wanted
two to three weeks of
Monday-Saturday continu-
ity to evaluate new strips, so
assuming the handwritten
numbers (ie. 2-1, 3-1, etc.)
on some of these accurately
correspond to weeks and
days, the first strip shown
is Saturday of Week One,
and several strips are still
missing. On Friday of
Week Two, Moby spits out
his coffee, but at least one
strip is missing before we
get into Week Three’s
series of uninked strips on
the next page.
I’ve also found one
lone existing fragment of a
Surf Hunter strip—a single
Wood-inked panel, but
where are the other panels
that went with it? I suspect
they were repurposed for
Challengers of the Unknown
#7 (April 1959), also inked
by Wood. The Challengers
page below has some odd
balloon placement, overlapping the borders—and note how the panel borders don’t form a
perfect grid. Also, compare Rocky in Panel 2 with the last panel of the second Surf Hunter
strip—almost a dead ringer, so maybe there are other missing Surf Hunter panels that made it
into Challengers, possibly as far back as Challengers #5’s Wood-inked underwater sequence.
As an experiment above, I’ve omitted all the Challengers dialogue, and added Panels 4
and 6 to the leftover Surf Hunter panel I found. This seems to bridge the gap between the
inked samples, and the uninked pencil strips on the next page. But if you know of any other
Surf Hunter strips, send them in, so we can definitively solve this mystery of the deep.
(Just for fun, I’m also presenting Jack’s comedy story in From Here To Insanity #11 (Aug.
1955), spoofing the film 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea. For comparison, Wood did his own
take on 20,000 Leagues in Panic #11 (Oct. 1955), and his last panel is shown below.) ★
86
Many of these Surf Hunter scans are courtesy of the Jack Kirby Museum’s Kirby Digital Archive.
Our thanks to the Museum for its continued support of our research.
87
3-4 3-3 3-2 3-1
88
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90
Send letters to: THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR
Collector Comments c/o TwoMorrows Publishing • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614
E-mail: [email protected] • See back issue excerpts at: www.twomorrows.com
Got anything to write? Send it!
TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.
that reads like, “Hey! Would Galactus, Wanda and Pietro have been in
Why don’t we do THOR #134? Would the Tana Nile resolution, as
this...?” Rather, it noted by Lee, have been included, and if so,
reads like a reminder would it have been in the romantic way Lee sug-
of basic ideas gested? Would it have mattered? What would his
already thrown Cap story in SUSPENSE #84 have been like with-
around, with a few out these notes from Lee? Does this note show
(Long letters and little space, so to fit it all in, more ideas and comments added. If the actual that Lee and Kirby colluded more on some strips,
no art in the letter column this time, except for story plot details had been discussed before- like “Cap,” than others, like the FF? Or does the
this piece we just had to show, which isn’t even hand, it seems strange to me that what is writ- lack of FF notes just show the state of it that
by Jack:) ten here is so vague. I think it shows the nuts month?
and bolts story plotting is being left As expected, this piece doesn’t settle anything
entirely to Kirby. beyond what we already knew about the
For whatever reason, Lee here is Lee/Kirby work practice, simply because Lee
giving more suggestions about Thor gives quite a deal of direction for one strip
and Cap than the FF. I wonder if this (“Cap”), some ideas for another (THOR) and next
was always the case, or whether it’s to nothing for another (FF).
just the way it was for this month? That Lee intended to be directly involved in
Possibly, Lee wrote down the elements each strip’s direction to some degree is clear.
that he felt Kirby would be prone to Whether he was actually guiding it or simply try-
TM & © Marc Brown.
DIGITAL
#10-12, and a tour of Jack’s home! #13-15, plus new art! #23-26, plus new art! #27-30, plus new art!
ART, plus regular columns by
MARK EVANIER (160-page trade paperback) $17.95 (176-page trade paperback) $19.95 (288-page trade paperback) $29.95 (288-page trade paperback) $29.95
ISBN: 9781893905016 ISBN: 9781893905023 ISBN: 9781605490038 ISBN: 9781605490120
and others, Diamond Order Code: MAR042974 Diamond Order Code: APR043058 Diamond Order Code: JUN084280 Diamond Order Code: DEC084286
and presentation of KIRBY’S UNINKED
NS
PENCILS from the 1960s-80s (from EDITIO BLE
photocopies preserved in the KIRBY AVAILANLY Go online for other issues, and an ULTIMATE BUNDLE
ARCHIVES). Now in FULL-COLOR, it FOR O $4.95
showcases Kirby’s art even better! $1.95 - with all the issues at HALF-PRICE!
KIRBY COLLECTOR #32 KIRBY COLLECTOR #33 KIRBY COLLECTOR #34 KIRBY COLLECTOR #35 KIRBY COLLECTOR #36
KIRBY’S LEAST-KNOWN WORK! MARK FANTASTIC FOUR ISSUE! Gallery of FF FIGHTING AMERICANS! MARK EVANIER GREAT ESCAPES! MISTER MIRACLE pencil THOR ISSUE! Never-seen KIRBY interview,
EVANIER on the Fourth World, unfinished pencils at tabloid size, MARK EVANIER on on 1960s Marvel inkers, SHIELD, Losers, and art gallery, MARK EVANIER, MARSHALL JOE SINNOTT and JOHN ROMITA JR. on
THE HORDE novel, long-lost KIRBY INTER- the FF Cartoon series, interviews with STAN Green Arrow overviews, INFANTINO inter- ROGERS & MICHAEL CHABON interviews, their Thor work, MARK EVANIER, extensive
VIEW from France, update to the KIRBY LEE and ERIK LARSEN, JOE SINNOTT view on Simon & Kirby, KIRBY interview, comparing Kirby and Houdini’s backgrounds, THOR and TALES OF ASGARD coverage, a
CHECKLIST, pencil gallery of Kirby’s least- salute, the HUMAN TORCH in STRANGE Captain America PENCIL ART GALLERY, analysis of “Himon”, 2001 Kirby Tribute look at the “real” Norse gods, 40 pages of
known work (including THE PRISONER, TALES, origins of Kirby Krackle, interviews PHILIPPE DRUILLET interview, JOE SIMON Panel (WILL EISNER, JOHN BUSCEMA, KIRBY THOR PENCILS, including a Kirby
BLACK HOLE, IN THE DAYS OF THE with nearly EVERY WRITER AND ARTIST and ALEX TOTH speak, unseen BIG GAME JOHN ROMITA, MIKE ROYER, & JOHNNY Art Gallery at TABLOID SIZE, with pin-ups,
MOB, TRUE DIVORCE CASES), westerns, who worked on the FF after Kirby, & more! HUNTER and YOUNG ABE LINCOLN Kirby CARSON) & more! KIRBY/MARSHALL covers, and more! KIRBY covers inked by
and more! KIRBY/LADRONN cover! KIRBY/LARSEN and KIRBY/TIMM covers! concepts! KIRBY and KIRBY/TOTH covers! ROGERS and KIRBY/STEVE RUDE covers! MIKE ROYER and TREVOR VON EEDEN!
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KIRBY COLLECTOR #37 KIRBY COLLECTOR #38 KIRBY COLLECTOR #39 KIRBY COLLECTOR #40 KIRBY COLLECTOR #41
“HOW TO DRAW COMICS THE KIRBY “HOW TO DRAW COMICS THE KIRBY FAN FAVORITES! Covering Kirby’s work on WORLD THAT’S COMING! KAMANDI and 1970s MARVEL WORK! Coverage of ’70s
WAY!” MIKE ROYER interview on how he WAY!” PART 2: JOE SINNOTT on how he HULK, INHUMANS, and SILVER SURFER, OMAC spotlight, 2003 Kirby Tribute Panel work from Captain America to Eternals to
inks Jack’s work, HUGE GALLERY tracing inks Jack’s work, HUGE PENCIL GALLERY, TOP PROS pick favorite Kirby covers, Kirby (WENDY PINI, MICHAEL CHABON, STAN Machine Man, DICK GIORDANO & MARK
the evolution of Jack’s style, new column list of the art in the KIRBY ARCHIVES, ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT interview, GOLDBERG, SAL BUSCEMA, LARRY SHULTZ interviews, MARK EVANIER, 2004
on OBSCURE KIRBY WORK, MARK MARK EVANIER, special sections on Jack’s MARK EVANIER, 2002 Kirby Tribute Panel LIEBER, and STAN LEE), P. CRAIG RUSSELL Kirby Tribute Panel (STEVE RUDE, DAVE
EVANIER, special sections on Jack’s TECH- technique and influences, SPEND A DAY (DICK AYERS, TODD McFARLANE, PAUL interview, MARK EVANIER, NEW COLUMN GIBBONS, WALTER SIMONSON, and PAUL
NIQUE AND INFLUENCES, comparing STAN WITH KIRBY (with JACK DAVIS, GULACY, LEVITZ, HERB TRIMPE), pencil art gallery, analyzing Jack’s visual shorthand, pencil art RYAN), pencil art gallery, unused 1962
LEE’s writing to JACK’s, and more! Two HERNANDEZ BROS., and RUDE) and more! and more! Kirby covers inked by MIKE gallery, and more! Kirby covers inked by HULK #6 KIRBY PENCILS, and more! Kirby
COLOR UNPUBLISHED KIRBY COVERS! Two UNPUBLISHED KIRBY COVERS! ALLRED and P. CRAIG RUSSELL! ERIK LARSEN and REEDMAN! covers inked by GIORDANO and SCHULTZ!
(84 tabloid pages) $9.95 (84 tabloid pages) $9.95 (84 tabloid pages) $9.95 (84 tabloid pages) $9.95 (84 tabloid pages) $9.95
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KIRBY COLLECTOR #42 KIRBY COLLECTOR #43 KIRBY COLLECTOR #44 KIRBY COLLECTOR #45 KIRBY COLLECTOR #46
1970s DC WORK! Coverage of Jimmy KIRBY AWARD WINNERS! STEVE SHERMAN KIRBY’S MYTHOLOGICAL CHARACTERS! Jack’s vision of PAST AND FUTURE, with a Focus on NEW GODS, FOREVER PEOPLE,
Olsen, FF movie set visit, overview of all and others sharing memories and never- Coverage of DEMON, THOR, & GALACTUS, never-seen KIRBY interview, a new interview and DARKSEID! Includes a rare interview
Newsboy Legion stories, KEVIN NOWLAN seen art from JACK & ROZ, a never-pub- interview with KIRBY, MARK EVANIER, with son NEAL KIRBY, MARK EVANIER’S with KIRBY, MARK EVANIER’s column,
and MURPHY ANDERSON on inking Jack, lished 1966 interview with KIRBY, MARK pencil art galleries of the Demon and other column, two pencil galleries, two complete FOURTH WORLD pencil art galleries
never-seen interview with Kirby, MARK EVANIER on VINCE COLLETTA, pencils-to- mythological characters, two never-reprinted ’50s stories, Jack’s first script, Kirby Tribute (including Kirby’s redesigns for SUPER
EVANIER on Kirby’s covers, Bongo Comics’ Sinnott inks comparison of TALES OF BLACK MAGIC stories, interview with Kirby Panel (with EVANIER, KATZ, SHAW!, and POWERS), two 1950s stories, a new Kirby
Kirby ties, complete ’40s gangster story, SUSPENSE #93, and more! Covers by KIRBY Award winner DAVID SCHWARTZ and F4 SHERMAN), plus an unpublished CAPTAIN Darkseid front cover inked by MIKE
pencil art gallery, and more! Kirby covers (Jack’s original ’70s SILVER STAR CONCEPT screenwriter MIKE FRANCE, and more! 3-D cover, inked by BILL BLACK and con- ROYER, a Kirby Forever People back cover
inked by NOWLAN and ANDERSON! ART) and KIRBY/SINNOTT! Kirby cover inked by MATT WAGNER! verted into 3-D by RAY ZONE! inked by JOHN BYRNE, and more!
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KIRBY COLLECTOR #47 KIRBY COLLECTOR #48 KIRBY COLLECTOR #49 KIRBY COLLECTOR #50 KIRBY COLLECTOR #51
KIRBY’S SUPER TEAMS, from kid gangs KIRBYTECH ISSUE, spotlighting Jack’s high- WARRIORS, spotlighting Thor (with a look KIRBY FIVE-OH! covers the best of Kirby’s Bombastic EVERYTHING GOES issue, with
and the Challengers, to Fantastic Four, tech concepts, from Iron Man’s armor and at hidden messages in BILL EVERETT’s 50-year career in comics: BEST KIRBY a wealth of great submissions that couldn’t
X-Men, and Super Powers, with unseen Machine Man, to the Negative Zone and Thor inks), Sgt. Fury, Challengers of the STORIES, COVERS, CHARACTER DESIGNS, be pigeonholed into a “theme” issue!
1960s Marvel art, a rare KIRBY interview, beyond! Includes a rare KIRBY interview, Unknown, Losers, and others! Includes a UNUSED ART, and profiles of/commentary Includes a rare KIRBY interview, new inter-
MARK EVANIER’s column, two pencil art MARK EVANIER’s column, two pencil art rare KIRBY interview, interviews with by the 50 PEOPLE MOST INFLUENCED BY views with JIM LEE and ADAM HUGHES,
galleries, complete 1950s story, author galleries, complete 1950s story, TOM JERRY ORDWAY and GRANT MORRISON, KIRBY’S WORK! Plus a 50-PAGE PENCIL MARK EVANIER’s column, huge pencil art
JONATHAN LETHEM on his Kirby influ- SCIOLI interview, Kirby Tribute Panel (with MARK EVANIER’s column, pencil art gallery, ART GALLERY and a COLOR SECTION! galleries, a complete Golden Age Kirby
ence, interview with JOHN ROMITA, JR. ADAMS, PÉREZ, and ROMITA), and covers a complete 1950s story, wraparound Thor Kirby cover inked by DARWYN COOKE, story, two COLOR UNPUBLISHED KIRBY
on his Eternals work, and more! inked by TERRY AUSTIN and TOM SCIOLI! cover inked by JERRY ORDWAY, and more! and introduction by MARK EVANIER. COVERS, and more!
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(Digital Edition) $3.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95 (Digital Edition) $7.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95
ISBN: 9781893905894
KIRBY COLLECTOR #52 KIRBY COLLECTOR #53 KIRBY COLLECTOR #54 KIRBY COLLECTOR #55 KIRBY COLLECTOR #56
Spotlights Kirby’s most obscure work: an THE MAGIC OF STAN & JACK! New inter- STAN & JACK PART TWO! More on the “Kirby Goes To Hollywood!” SERGIO “Unfinished Sagas”—series, stories, and
UNUSED THOR STORY, BRUCE LEE comic, view with STAN LEE, walking tour of New co-creators of the Marvel Universe, final ARAGONÉS and MELL LAZARUS recall arcs Kirby never finished. TRUE DIVORCE
animation work, stage play, unaltered pages York where Lee & Kirby lived and worked, interview (and cover inks) by GEORGE Kirby’s BOB NEWHART TV show cameo, CASES, RAAM THE MAN MOUNTAIN,
from KAMANDI, DEMON, DESTROYER re-evaluation of the “Lost” FF #108 story TUSKA, differences between KIRBY and comparing the recent STAR WARS films to KOBRA, DINGBATS, a complete story from
DUCK, and more, including a feature (including a new page that just surfaced), DITKO’S approaches, WILL MURRAY on New Gods, RUBY & SPEARS interviewed, SOUL LOVE, complete Boy Explorers story,
examining the last page of his final issue “What If Jack Hadn’t Left Marvel In 1970?,” the origin of the FF, the mystery of Marvel Jack’s encounters with FRANK ZAPPA, PAUL two Kirby Tribute Panels, MARK EVANIER
of various series BEFORE EDITORIAL plus MARK EVANIER’s regular column, a cover dates, MARK EVANIER’s regular col- McCARTNEY, and JOHN LENNON, MARK and other regular columnists, pencil art
TAMPERING (with lots of surprises)! Color Kirby pencil art gallery, a complete Golden umn, a Kirby pencil art gallery, a complete EVANIER’s regular column, a Kirby pencil galleries, and more, with Kirby’s “Galaxy
Kirby cover inked by DON HECK! Age Kirby story, and more, behind a color Golden Age Kirby story, and more, plus art gallery, a Golden Age Kirby story, and Green” cover inked by ROYER, and the
(84 tabloid pages) $9.95 Kirby cover inked by GEORGE PÉREZ! Kirby back cover inked by JOE SINNOTT! more! Kirby cover inked by PAUL SMITH! unseen cover for SOUL LOVE #1!
(Digital Edition) $3.95 (84 tabloid pages) $10.95 (84 tabloid pages) $10.95 (84 tabloid pages) $10.95 (84 tabloid pages) $10.95
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KIRBY COLLECTOR #57 KIRBY COLLECTOR #58 KIRBY COLLECTOR #59 KIRBY COLLECTOR #60 KIRBY COLLECTOR #61
“Legendary Kirby”—how Jack put his spin LEE & KIRBY: THE WONDER YEARS! “Kirby Vault!” Rarities from the “King” of FANTASTIC FOUR FOLLOW-UP to #58’s JACK KIRBY: WRITER! Examines quirks of
on classic folklore! TONY ISABELLA on Traces their history at Marvel, and what led comics: Personal correspondence, private THE WONDER YEARS! Never-seen FF Kirby’s wordsmithing, from the FOURTH
SATAN’S SIX (with Kirby’s unseen layouts), them to conceive the Fantastic Four in photos, collages, rare Marvelmania art, wraparound cover, interview between FF WORLD to ROMANCE and beyond!
Biblical inspirations of DEVIL DINOSAUR, 1961. Also documents the evolution of the bootleg album covers, sketches, transcript inkers JOE SINNOTT and DICK AYERS, Lengthy Kirby interview, MARK EVANIER
THOR through the eyes of mythologist FF throughout the 1960s, with plenty of of a 1969 VISIT TO THE KIRBY HOME rare LEE & KIRBY interview, comparison of and other columnists, LARRY LIEBER’s
JOSEPH CAMPBELL, a complete Golden Kirby art, plus previously unknown details (where Jack answers the questions YOU’D a Jack and Stan FF story conference to scripting for Jack at 1960s Marvel Comics,
Age Kirby story, rare Kirby interview, MARK about Lee and Kirby’s working relationship, ask in ‘69), MARK EVANIER, pencil art Stan’s final script and Jack’s penciled pages, RAY ZONE on 3-D work with Kirby, com-
EVANIER and our other regular columnists, and their eventual parting of ways in 1970. from the FOURTH WORLD, CAPTAIN MARK EVANIER and other columnists, paring STEVE GERBER’s Destroyer Duck
pencil art from ETERNALS, DEMON, NEW AMERICA, MACHINE MAN, SILVER gallery of KIRBY FF ART, pencils from scripts to Jack’s pencils, Kirby’s best promo
(160-page trade paperback) $19.95
GODS, THOR, and Jack’s ATLAS cover! SURFER GRAPHIC NOVEL, and more! BLACK PANTHER, SILVER SURFER, & more! blurbs, Kirby pencil art gallery, & more!
(Digital Edition) $7.95
(84 tabloid pages) $10.95 ISBN: 9781605490380 (104 pages with COLOR) $10.95 (104 pages with COLOR) $10.95 (100 FULL-COLOR pages) $10.95
(Digital Edition) $3.95 Diamond Order Code: SEP111248 (Digital Edition) $4.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95
KIRBY COLLECTOR #62 KIRBY COLLECTOR #63 KIRBY COLLECTOR #64 KIRBY COLLECTOR #65 KIRBY COLLECTOR #66
KIRBY AT DC! Kirby interview, MARK MARVEL UNIVERSE! Featuring MARK SUPER-SOLDIERS! We declassify Captain ANYTHING GOES (AGAIN)! A potpourri DOUBLE-TAKES ISSUE! Features oddities,
EVANIER and our other regular columnists, ALEXANDER’s pivotal Lee/Kirby essay “A America, Fighting American, Sgt. Fury, The issue, with anything and everything from coincidences, and reworkings by both Jack
updated “X-Numbers” list of Kirby’s DC Universe A’Borning,” MARK EVANIER Losers, Pvt. Strong, Boy Commandos, and Jack’s 50-year career, including a head-to- and Stan Lee: the Galactus Origin you
assignments (revealing some surprises), interviews ROY THOMAS, STAN GOLD- a tribute to Simon & Kirby! PLUS: a Kirby head comparison of the genius of KIRBY didn’t see, Ditko’s vs. Kirby’s Spider-Man,
JERRY BOYD’s insights on Kirby’s DC BERG and JOE SINNOTT, a look at key interview about Captain America, MARK and ALEX TOTH! Plus a lengthy KIRBY how Lee and Kirby viewed “writing” dif-
work, a look at KEY 1970s EVENTS IN late-1970s, ’80s, and ’90s events in Kirby’s EVANIER and other columnists, key 1940s- interview, MARK EVANIER and our other ferently, plus a rare KIRBY interview,
JACK’S LIFE AND CAREER, Challengers vs. life and career, STAN LEE script pages, ’50s events in Kirby’s career, unseen pencils regular columnists, unseen and unused MARK EVANIER and our other regular
the FF, pencil art galleries from FOREVER unseen Kirby pencils and unused art from and unused art from OMAC, SILVER STAR, Kirby art from JIMMY OLSEN, KAMANDI, columnists, unseen and unused pencil art
PEOPLE, OMAC, and THE DEMON, Kirby THOR, NICK FURY AGENT OF SHIELD, CAPTAIN AMERICA (in the 1960s AND MARVELMANIA, his COMIC STRIP & from FANTASTIC FOUR, 2001, CAPTAIN
cover inked by MIKE ROYER, and more! and FANTASTIC FOUR, and more! ’70s), the LOSERS, & more! KIRBY cover! ANIMATION WORK, and more! VICTORY, BRUCE LEE, & more!
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CAPTAIN VICTORY:
JACK KIRBY GRAPHITE EDITION
CHECKLIST: GOLD KIRBY’s original CAPTAIN VICTORY
Lists EVERY KIRBY COMIC, GRAPHIC NOVEL presented as created in
BOOK, UNPUBLISHED 1975 (before being modified for the
WORK and more! 1980s Pacific Comics series), reproduced
(128-page trade paperback) from his uninked pencil art! Includes
$14.95 Jack’s unused CAPTAIN VICTORY
(Digital Edition) $5.95 SCREENPLAY, unseen art, an historical
ISBN: 9781605490052 overview to put it in perspective!
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Raleigh, NC 27614 USA depth exploration of DC’s 100-PAGE SUPER age of the Avengers/Defenders War, JLA/JSA X-Men, Global Guardians, Captain Canuck, and 1980s adventures, including her death in
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giants, DC indexes galore, and a salute to Legends, Millennium, Invasion, Infinity Man in the UK and more. Also: exclusive Plus: an ALAN BRENNERT interview, behind
E-mail: “human encyclopedia” E. NELSON BRID- Gauntlet, and more! Featuring the work of interview with cover artists STEVE FASTNER the scenes of the Supergirl movie starring
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ICK, RICH BUCKLER, FRANK FRAZETTA, McFARLANE, GEORGE PÉREZ, JOE STATON, JOHN BYRNE, CHRIS CLAREMONT, DAVE look at the DC Superheroes Water Ski Show.
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BRICKJOURNAL #35 ALTER EGO #133 ALTER EGO #134 ALTER EGO #135 ALTER EGO #136
History in LEGO Bricks! LEGO pro RYAN Gentleman JIM MOONEY gets a feature- Celebrates SOL BRODSKY—Fantastic Four LEN WEIN (writer/co-creator of Swamp BONUS 100-PAGE issue as ROY THOMAS
McNAUGHT on his LEGO Pompeii and length spotlight, in an in-depth interview #3-4 inker, logo designer, and early Marvel Thing, Human Target, and Wolverine) talks talks to JIM AMASH about celebrating his
other projects, military builder DAN conducted by DR. JEFF McLAUGHLIN— production manager! With tributes by about his early days in comics at DC and 50th year in comics—and especially about
SISKIND on his BrickMania creations, and never before published! Featuring plenty daughter and Marvel colorist JANNA Marvel! Art by WRIGHTSON, INFANTINO, the ‘90s at Marvel! Art by TRIMPE,
LASSE VESTERGARD about his historical of rare and unseen MOONEY ART from PARKER, STAN LEE, HERB TRIMPE, STAN TRIMPE, DILLON, CARDY, APARO, GUICE, RYAN, ROSS, BUCKLER,
building, JARED K. BURKS on minifigure Batman & Robin, Supergirl, Spider-Man, GOLDBERG, DAVID ANTHONY KRAFT, THORNE, MOONEY, and others! Plus FCA HOOVER, KAYANAN, BUSCEMA, CHAN,
customizing, step-by-step “You Can Build Legion of Super-Heroes, Tommy TONY ISABELLA, ROY THOMAS, and (Fawcett Collectors of America), MR. VALENTINO, and others! Plus FCA, MR.
It” instructions by CHRISTOPHER DECK, Tomorrow, and others! Plus FCA, Mr. others! Plus FCA, MICHAEL T. GILBERT, MONSTER’s Comic Crypt, the Comics MONSTER’s Comic Crypt, AMY KISTE
BrickNerd DIY Fan Art, MINDSTORMS Monster’s Comic Crypt, BILL SCHELLY, BILL SCHELLY, and more! Cover portrait Code, and DAN BARRY! Cover by DICK NYBERG on the Comics Code, and a cover
robotics lessons by DAMIEN KEE, and more! and more! by JOHN ROMITA! GIORDANO with BERNIE WRIGHTSON! caricature of Roy by MARIE SEVERIN!
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BERNIE WRIGHTSON interview on Swamp MIKE ALLRED and BOB BURDEN cover JOE STATON on his comics career (from How-to demos & interviews with Philadelphia TWOMORROWS CATALOG
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