Etd 2017 8048

CONTEMPORARY+BIG+BAND+MUSIC+
By+
JASON+SLAUGHTER+
A+dissertation+submitted+to+the+
Graduate+SchoolENew+Brunswick+
Rutgers,+The+State+University+of+New+Jersey+
In+partial+fulfillment+of+the+requirements+
For+the+degree+of+
Doctor+of+Philosophy+
Graduate+Program+in+Music+
Written+under+the+direction+of+
Christopher+Doll,+Ph.D.+
And+approved+by+
__________________________________________________+
__________________________________________________+
__________________________________________________+
__________________________________________________+
New+Brunswick,+New+Jersey+
May+2017+
+
ABSTRACT!OF!THE!DISSERTATION!
CONTEMPORARY!BIG!BAND!MUSIC!
By!JASON!SLAUGHTER!
Dissertation!Director:!
Christopher!Doll,!Ph.D.!
This!study!seeks!to!illuminate!a!largely!unknown!yet!vibrant!contemporary!
music!scene,!that!of!the!big!band,!and!distance!this!current!scene!from!the!nostalgia!
associated!with!the!swing!music!of!the!1930s!and!1940s!while!respecting!the!depth!
of!the!ensemble’s!history.!Given!the!scarcity!of!academic!research!available!in!this!
area,!interviews!have!been!conducted!with!leading!composers,!bandleaders,!
performers,!and!educators!in!order!to!supplement!the!modest!available!research.!
These!interviews!form!the!foundation!of!the!study,!and!are!both!quoted!throughout!
and!included!in!full!in!the!Appendix.!Rather!than!seeking!to!be!a!comprehensive!
investigation!into!the!current!big!band!scene,!this!study!instead!focuses!on!several!
issues!that!arose!during!the!research!and!interview!processes.!These!issues!include!
the!economics!of!running!a!big!band!and!the!effects!of!funding!sources,!the!use!of!
new!media!technologies!for!the!dissemination!of!big!band!music,!the!role!of!the!
university!system!in!big!band!and!jazz!music,!and!the!connection!between!the!
ensemble!and!musical!conservatism.!The!study!concludes!with!a!survey!and!
analysis!of!six!big!band!charts!written!by!living!composers!in!order!to!explore!the!
music!itself,!complementing!the!exploration!of!the!scene.!
! ii!
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS!
I!would!like!to!thank,!first!and!foremost,!my!dissertation!advisor,!Dr.!Christopher!
Doll,!who!has!provided!invaluable!feedback!and!encouragement.!I!would!also!like!to!
thank!Area!Coordinator!of!the!Musicology!Program!and!member!of!my!committee,!
Dr.!Douglas!Johnson!for!his!help!navigating!the!updated!process!of!the!musicology!
program.!I!am!grateful!to!committee!member!Dr.!Eduardo!Herrera!for!his!
knowledge!and!assistance!with!the!Institutional!Review!Board,!and!for!his!tough!
questioning!at!my!colloquium!–!my!dissertation!is!certainly!better!for!it.!
I!am!incredibly!grateful!to!the!many!amazing!players,!bandleaders,!and!composers!
who!agreed!to!speak!with!me!as!part!of!my!research.!These!are!the!very!people!who!
inspired!this!project,!and!it!is!an!honor!to!play!a!small!role!in!drawing!attention!to!
this!vibrant!music!scene.!
I!would!also!like!to!thank!my!parents,!Darrell!and!Becky!Slaughter,!for!all!of!their!
support!throughout!my!life.!When!I!approached!them!at!age!eight!with!the!idea!to!
start!piano!lessons,!there!was!no!reason!for!them!to!think!my!interest!would!
continue!for!any!period!of!time.!Nonetheless,!they!allowed!me!to!try!lessons,!and!it!
was!a!decision!that!changed!the!course!of!my!life.!Finally,!I!would!like!to!thank!my!
closest!friend,!Derrick!Johnson,!for!always!being!willing!to!take!my!late!night!phone!
calls!and!discuss!whatever!ideas!were!keeping!me!awake.!
! iii!
TABLE!OF!CONTENTS!
Abstract .............................................................................................................................................ii!
(
Acknowledgements................................................................................................................... iii!
(
List(of(Figures ................................................................................................................................vi!
(
Preface............................................................................................................................................. vii!
(
Chapter(1:(Introducing(the(Ensemble(&(a(Review(of((
(((((Existing(Big(Band(Scholarship.........................................................................................1!
! Defining!the!Ensemble!and!Parameters!of!the!Project ....................................3!
! Types!of!Bands!Currently!Active ...............................................................................5!
! The!Current!State!of!Big!Band!Scholarship........................................................13!
! Economic!Challenges...................................................................................................19!
(
Chapter(2:(Methods(of(Dissemination(&(Their(Effects(on(the(Music ...........26!
! Distribution!vs.!Circulation.......................................................................................26!
! Participatory!Culture...................................................................................................30!
! Creating!a!New!Moral!Economy!Based!Around!Free!Content...................35!
(
Chapter(3:(Big(Bands(in(the(University.........................................................................49!
! Apprenticeship...............................................................................................................50!
! University!Big!Bands!as!Music!Laboratories.....................................................55!
! Jazz!Education!as!a!Business....................................................................................57!
! Homogenization.............................................................................................................61!
! Changing!Sounds!and!Changing!Faces .................................................................63!
! A!Way!Forward? ............................................................................................................69!
(
Chapter(4:(The(Ensemble’s(Ties(to(Musical(Conservatism ................................72!
! Defining!the!Issue..........................................................................................................72!
! Authenticity!of!Expression........................................................................................74!
! Mistaken!Views ..............................................................................................................76!
! Nostalgia ...........................................................................................................................78!
! The!Role!of!Repertory!Bands ...................................................................................80!
! The!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center!Orchestra ...................................................................83!
! The!Dangers!of!Establishing!a!Big!Band!Canon ...............................................85!
! The!Mingus!Big!Band:!A!Conundrum ...................................................................88!
! Differing!Approaches:!The!JLCO!and!Mingus!Big!Band’s!
Treatment!of!Mingus’!“Dizzy!Moods” ....................................................91!
! Balancing!Innovation!with!Preservation ............................................................97!
(
(
(
(
! iv!
Chapter(5:(Six(Faces(of(the(Contemporary(Big(Band(Scene............................ 101!
! Carla!Bley!(b.!1936) .................................................................................................. 102!
! Maria!Schneider!(b.!1960)...................................................................................... 107!
! Jim!McNeely!(b.!1949).............................................................................................. 115!
! Gordon!Goodwin!(b.!1954) .................................................................................... 122!
! Alan!Ferber!(b.!1975)............................................................................................... 130!
! Darcy!James!Argue!(b.!1975) ................................................................................ 136!
(
Conclusion.................................................................................................................................. 145!
(
Citations....................................................................................................................................... 148!
(
Bibliography ............................................................................................................................. 155!
(
Appendix:(Interviews(with(Contemporary(Big(Band(
(((((Leaders,(Composers,(and(Performers................................................................... 164!
! Helge!Albin.................................................................................................................... 164!
! Darcy!James!Argue..................................................................................................... 167!
! Carla!Bley....................................................................................................................... 174!
! Michael!Breaux............................................................................................................ 177!
! Billy!Drewes ................................................................................................................. 190!
! Steven!Feifke ................................................................................................................ 200!
! Alan!Ferber ................................................................................................................... 210!
! Heinrich!von!Kalnein ................................................................................................ 224!
! Nate!Kimball................................................................................................................. 227!
! Tom!Kubis ..................................................................................................................... 238!
! John!La!Barbera .......................................................................................................... 244!
! Ralph!Lalama................................................................................................................ 251!
! Stephen!Norfleet......................................................................................................... 263!
! Bruce!Paulson .............................................................................................................. 267!
! Dave!Pietro.................................................................................................................... 279!
! Monika!Roscher .......................................................................................................... 288!
! Rich!Shemaria.............................................................................................................. 293!
! Julian!Tanaka................................................................................................................ 302!
! Frank!Vaganée............................................................................................................. 310!
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! v!
LIST!OF!TABLES/FIGURES!
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Table!1:!typical!big!band!doubles ............................................................................................4!
Table!2:!ensemble!names .........................................................................................................77!
!
Fig.!1:!“Hello!and!Goodbye”!excerpts ..................................................................................64!
Fig.!2:!opening!measures!of!“Dizzy!Moods”......................................................................92!
Fig.!3:!JLCO’s!orchestration!of!Mingus’!introductory!bass!solo ...............................94!
Fig.!4:!“Beads”!opening!motive ........................................................................................... 103!
Fig.!5:!chord!root!relationships!in!“Beads” .................................................................... 104!
Fig.!6:!“Beads”!B!section!melody........................................................................................ 105!
Fig.!7:!“The!Pretty!Road”!“dream!sequence”!themes ................................................ 110!
Fig.!8:!“The!Pretty!Road”!P1!variants................................................................................ 111!
Fig.!9:!“The!Pretty!Road”!P2!variants................................................................................ 113!
Fig.!10:!“The!Pretty!Road”!secondary!theme ................................................................ 113!
Fig.!11:!“The!Pretty!Road”!!“car!theme” .......................................................................... 114!
Fig.!12:!“Lickety!Split”!head.................................................................................................. 117!
Fig.!13:!“Lickety!Split”!opening!tone!row ....................................................................... 118!
Fig.!14:!“Lickety!Split”!bass!line!at!m.!257 ..................................................................... 118!
Fig.!15:!“Lickety!Split”!m.!266i273.................................................................................... 118!
Fig.!20:!“Hunting!Wabbits”!timeline!of!events ............................................................. 123!
Fig.!21:!“Hunting!Wabbits”!a!motive ................................................................................ 124!
Fig.!22:!“Hunting!Wabbits”!b!motive................................................................................ 125!
Fig.!23:!“Hunting!Wabbits”!m.!43....................................................................................... 126!
Fig.!24:!“Hunting!Wabbits”!m.!83!&!169 ......................................................................... 128!
Fig.!25:!“Hunting!Wabbits”!m.!127 .................................................................................... 129!
Fig.!26:!“March!Sublime”!ostinato!figure........................................................................ 131!
Fig.!27:!“March!Sublime”!tenor!saxophone!ostinato!in!m.!13................................ 132!
Fig.!28:!“March!Sublime”!trombone!ostinato!melody ............................................... 132!
Fig.!29:!“March!Sublime”!opening!section!melody..................................................... 134!
Fig.!30:!“March!Sublime”!m.!161!melody........................................................................ 135!
Fig.!31:!“The!Neighborhood”!4!eighth!pattern!&!sixteenth!ostinato .................. 138!
Fig.!32:!“The!Neighborhood”!opening!section.............................................................. 140!
Fig.!33:!“The!Neighborhood”!first!phrase!of!the!primary!melody....................... 141
! vi!
!
PREFACE(
! The!contemporary!big!band!scene!occupies!a!very!small!niche!within!the!
global!music!community,!and!yet!within!this!microcosm!there!exists!a!surprisingly!
diverse!number!of!musical!approaches.!Current!big!band!composers!utilize!styles!
and!techniques!from!an!incredible!variety!of!sources,!and!a!small!but!dedicated!
audience!has!helped!the!scene!thrive!in!the!last!couple!of!decades!in!a!way!it!never!
has!before.!Despite!the!recent!success!of!many!ensembles,!an!often!more!
sophisticated!approach!to!composition,!and!a!higher!standing!within!the!jazz!
community,!there!is!little!academic!research!available!on!the!topic.!Having!spent!a!
significant!amount!of!time!living!on!both!coasts!in!or!near!the!two!largest!centers!of!
big!band!music,!New!York!and!Los!Angeles,!and!having!interacted!with!many!of!the!
key!figures!in!the!current!scene,!I!found!myself!in!a!privileged!position!to!conduct!
this!much!needed!research.!
Over!the!course!of!several!years,!I!interviewed!prominent!big!band!
composers,!leaders,!players,!and!educators,!as!well!as!some!leaders!of!smaller!
regional!bands.!Care!has!been!taken!to!assure!a!representative!mix!of!interviewees!
in!terms!of!location,!background,!affiliation!and/or!noniaffiliation!with!the!
university!system,!race,!and!gender.!The!interviews!consist!of!questions!pertaining!
to!the!personal!background!of!each!interviewee!and!how!they!became!involved!in!
the!big!band!scene,!and!specific!questions!related!to!several!issues!that!form!the!
basis!of!the!dissertation!chapters,!outlined!below.!The!interviews!are!presented!in!
full!in!the!Appendix,!and!will!be!cited!throughout!the!study
! vii!
Chapter!1!begins!by!defining!the!standard!instrumentation!of!the!ensemble.!
It!includes!a!description!of!the!types!of!bands!currently!active,!which!include!
professional!big!bands,!university!ensembles,!reading!bands,!legacy!bands,!and!
recording!bands.!Professional!and!university!ensembles!will!form!the!majority!of!
the!groups!engaged!by!the!study,!as!these!two!types!of!big!band!are!most!frequently!
the!sites!of!contemporary!big!band!music.!After!a!review!of!the!current!scholarship!
available,!the!remainder!of!the!chapter!is!dedicated!to!the!economic!issues!that!arise!
when!attempting!to!fund!a!large!ensemble,!and!what!impacts!the!lack!or!presence!of!
funding!(and!the!source!of!this!funding)!might!have!on!various!bands!and!their!
music.!
Chapter!2!addresses!media!technologies!used!in!the!dissemination!of!big!
band!music,!and!particularly!the!difference!between!the!models!used!by!big!bands!
of!the!1930s!and!1940s!and!those!employed!by!current!bands.!The!earlier!bands!
relied!on!a!broadcast!model,!and!this!oneitoimany!approach!only!allows!for!a!select!
few!creators!to!gain!a!large!audience.!This!created!a!situation!with!a!few!bands!in!
New!York!becoming!incredibly!successful!to!the!detriment!of!the!territory!bands.!So!
even!at!the!height!of!its!popularity,!there!were!fewer!big!bands!working!than!before!
or!after.!The!spreadable!model!employed!by!contemporary!bands,!in!which!media!is!
spread!among!people!via!social!networks,!allows!for!more!variation,!and!in!fact!
encourages!a!plurality!of!styles.!Such!diverse!approaches!are!not!supported!in!a!
broadcast!model,!which!seeks!to!attract!mass!audiences.!The!ease!of!sharing!media!
through!social!networks!allows!niche!music!like!that!of!big!bands!to!be!spread!
among!more!people.!Relevant!issues!connected!to!the!spreadable!model!are!
! viii!
discussed,!including!participatory!culture,!the!inequality!of!access!to!social!
networks,!and!various!approaches!to!financial!reward!when!content!is!often!spread!
freely.!
The!role!of!the!university!system!in!the!proliferation!of!big!bands!and!its!
effect!on!them!is!discussed!in!chapter!3.!Almost!all!current!big!band!composers!
studied!jazz!in!the!university,!and!this!has!had!a!significant!impact!on!both!the!
ensemble!and!the!music!written!for!it.!The!trend!in!recent!years!shows!big!band!
charts!becoming!much!more!harmonically!sophisticated,!but!often!at!the!cost!of!the!
swing!feel!and!the!sonic!power!that!can!be!achieved!through!simpler!harmonies!
played!at!higher!volumes.!The!big!band’s!move!into!the!university!(along!with!the!
majority!of!jazz)!also!influenced!a!shift!in!demographics,!with!many!more!white!
musicians!getting!involved!in!the!scene!while!their!black!counterparts!became!much!
more!scarce.!Additionally,!in!recent!years!more!women!have!become!involved!in!the!
big!band!scene,!and!this!is!likely!in!part!due!to!their!increased!presence!in!the!
university!system.!
Chapter!4!deals!with!the!connection!between!big!bands!(or!at!least!the!
popular!image!of!them)!and!musical!conservatism.!The!rough!definition!of!musical!
conservatism!in!this!case!refers!to!a!musician!or!band!that!either!plays!older!tunes!
exclusively,!or!play!in!an!older!style.!There!is!a!debate!in!the!jazz!community!
concerning!the!validity!of!many!styles!of!jazz!after!the!hard!bop!of!the!1960s,!
particularly!styles!incorporating!rock!influences.!Wynton!Marsalis!has!become!
somewhat!of!a!figurehead!in!this!discussion,!and!the!chapter!includes!discussion!of!
his!role!with!the!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center!Orchestra,!as!well!as!his!involvement!in!the!
! ix!
Ken!Burns!documentary,!Jazz.!Additionally,!an!inidepth!comparison!is!made!
between!the!JLCO!and!the!Mingus!Big!Band’s!approach!to!playing!Mingus’!music,!
comparing!each!band’s!recording!of!the!tune!“Dizzy!Moods.”!
The!final!chapter!contains!analysis!of!six!representative!charts!in!the!
contemporary!big!band!repertory!in!an!effort!to!show!the!diversity!of!approaches!to!
the!ensemble!in!the!current!scene.!The!charts!included!are!“Beads”!by!Carla!Bley,!
“The!Pretty!Road”!by!Maria!Schneider,!“Lickety!Split”!by!Jim!McNeely,!“March!
Sublime”!by!Alan!Ferber,!and!“Brooklyn!Babylon!1.!The!Neighborhood”!by!Darcy!
James!Argue.!
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1!
CHAPTER(1:(INTRODUCING(THE(ENSEMBLE(&(
A(REVIEW(OF(EXISTING(BIG(BAND(SCHOLARSHIP(
! The!contemporary!big!band!scene!contains!an!incredible!variety!of!musical!
voices!with!a!multitude!of!approaches!to!writing!for!the!ensemble.!Younger!
composers!are!crafting!new!sounds!and!textures!for!this!welliworn!ensemble,!
proving!that!far!more!can!be!done!with!this!nimble!assortment!of!instruments.!
Despite!the!numerous!thriving!big!band!scenes!in!the!United!States!and!parts!of!
Europe,!many!erroneous!assumptions!and!conclusions!have!been!made!pertaining!
to!the!music!of!big!bands!and!the!state!of!the!current!scene.!The!ensemble!has!been!
so!closely!tied!to!the!swing!music!of!the!late!1930s!and!1940s!that!the!term!“big!
band”!is!often!used!as!more!of!a!genre!marker!than!as!an!indication!of!the!
performing!forces!in!use.!Modern!bands!defy!genre!classification,!and!in!fact!there!
are!at!least!as!many!bands!currently!active!and!as!many!albums!being!released!as!
there!were!during!the!heyday!of!the!ensemble.!What!is!true!is!that!the!music!is!not!
nearly!as!popular,!and!the!functional!purpose!of!the!ensemble!has!changed!from!
providing!music!for!dance!to!more!serious!concert!functions.!Writing!in!1972,!Jim!
Szantor!explains!the!decline!in!popularity!of!big!band!music:!
“What,!then,!decimated!the!ranks?!Band!singers!gave!rise!to!the!age!of!the!
vocalist;!there!was!bebop!and!resultant!trends!to!small!groups;!television!
and!maybe!just!plain!changing!public!taste.!There!are!other!reasons,!of!
course.!Johnny!came!marching!home!from!war!and!wanted!to!spend!some!
time!at!the!hearth.!Thus,!the!ballrooms,!clubs,!and!movie!theaters!all!gave!
way!to!the!electronic!age,!which!seems!to!be!further!expanding!with!cable!
and!cassette!TV.!Also,!the!increase!in!the!quality!of!phonograph!records!and!
equipment!may!be!partially!to!‘blame.’!If!the!medium!had!not!advanced!as!it!
has,!people!might!be!going!out!a!little!more!often!to!hear!the!real!thing!in!
person.”1!
!
2!
!
The!move!away!from!live!entertainment!is!certainly!a!large!factor!in!the!
decrease!in!popularity!of!the!bands,!but!the!emergence!of!bebop!as!an!alternative!
can!hardly!be!blamed.!Bebop!has!never!been!widely!popular,!and!its!more!angular,!
aggressive!style!and!increasingly!complex!chord!changes!were!in!fact!absorbed!into!
the!big!band!tradition.!If!the!bebop!style!had!anything!to!do!with!the!fall!of!the!big!
bands,!it!was!due!to!its!inclusion!in!new!big!band!music.!The!rise!of!the!singer,!
concurrent!with!a!recording!fiasco!perpetrated!by!the!musician’s!union,!may!also!
have!had!a!significant!impact.!George!Simon!described!this!in!a!1977!Down(Beat!
article,!in!which!he!argued!that!the!recording!ban!by!the!musicians’!union!(which!
mostly!represented!instrumentalists)!in!1942!did!nothing!to!stop!studios!from!
continuing!to!record.!Instead,!they!simply!hired!the!singers!that!had!previously!been!
promoted!by!the!big!bands,!this!time!recording!with!vocal!groups!rather!than!
instrumental!ones.2!After!the!ban!was!lifted!in!1944,!there!was!a!small!resurgence!in!
popularity,!but!by!then!big!band!style!had!begun!to!shift!away!from!danceable!tunes!
to!a!more!concert!oriented!style.!Without!the!regular!dance!gigs,!running!a!big!band!
was!no!longer!economically!viable!in!most!cases.!Album!sales!and!what!concert!
attendance!remained!was!simply!not!enough!to!support!all!of!the!bands!active!at!
that!time.!The!late!1940s!and!1950s!are!generally!viewed!as!the!low!point!in!the!
history!of!the!ensemble,!both!in!terms!of!popularity!and!the!number!of!bands!
working.!
Essentially,!the!death!of!the!big!bands!would!more!accurately!be!called!the!
death!of!the!dance!bands.!Many!involved!in!the!current!scene!express!optimism!
regarding!the!future!of!the!ensemble.!In!their!book,!Jazz(Composition(and(Arranging(
!
3!
in(the(Digital(Age,!Richard!Sussman!and!Michael!Abene!argue!that!although!big!band!
musicians!are!not!making!large!sums!of!money!from!participating!in!the!scene,!there!
are!thriving!big!bands!in!virtually!every!city!and!many!smaller!towns.3!It!is!
important!to!note!that!musicians!have!kept!this!ensemble!alive!despite!the!fact!that!
there!is!no!major!money!to!be!earned!in!it.!It!has!become!a!connoisseur’s!ensemble,!
and!attracts!more!sophisticated!writers!who!want!to!explore!the!possibilities!and!
intricacies!of!a!large!group.!That!being!said,!big!band!leaders!remain!active!in!trying!
to!promote!the!ensemble!to!a!wider!audience.!In!a!letter!to!the!editor!in!Down(Beat,!
big!band!leader!Bob!Mintzer!writes:!
“Big!bands!are!alive!and!well,!albeit!in!a!different!form!than!previous!days!
when!bands!could!tour!all!year!and!make!great!strides!in!the!music.!
University!big!bands!are!making!great!strides!as!vehicles!for!talented!young!
players!and!writers!alike.!The!radio!bands!of!Europe!are!recording!
compelling!specialty!projects!with!jazz!greats!on!a!regular!basis.!There!are!
countless!big!bands!springing!up!around!the!world!with!aspiring!young!
composers!and!players.!I’ve!worked!with!many!of!them.!There!are!other!
bands!that!have!cultivated!a!sound!and!style!through!years!of!perseverance,!
determination!and!consistent!personnel.!I’m!particularly!referring!to!the!Bill!
Holman!Big!Band,!the!Vanguard!Jazz!Orchestra,!Clayton–Hamilton!Jazz!
Orchestra!and!my!own!band.!Please!support!these!organizations!through!
buying!their!CDs!and!attending!their!concerts.”4!
!
The!ensemble!has!had!a!tenuous!existence!for!decades,!but!there!is!no!sign!of!its!
imminent!disappearance.!
Defining(the(Ensemble(and(Parameters(of(the(Project(
! For!the!purposes!of!this!project,!a!big!band!is!defined!as!a!14i18!piece!
ensemble!consisting!of!5!saxophones!(2!altos,!2!tenors,!1!baritone),!3i4!trumpets,!3i
4!trombones!(2i3!tenors!and!1!bass),!guitar,!piano,!bass,!and!drums.!Some!groups!
omit!either!the!guitar!or!piano!from!the!rhythm!section,!while!others!add!a!
!
4!
percussionist!in!addition!to!the!drummer.!Most!contemporary!big!band!composers!
also!make!frequent!use!of!instrument!doubling.!There!is!an!undocumented!tradition!
of!typical!instrument!doubles!that!can!be!expected!in!a!big!band!setting!(see!table(1).!
Instrument( Standard(Doubles(
Alto!Sax! Soprano!Sax,!Flute,!Oboe!(uncommon)!
Tenor!Sax! Clarinet,!Flute!
Baritone!Sax! Bass!Clarinet,!Flute!
Trumpet! Flugelhorn,!Cornet!
Trombone! Euphonium!(uncommon)!
Bass!Trombone! Tuba!
table(1:(typical(big(band(doubles(
There!are!other!doubles!frequently!used!in!certain!bands!(e.g.!cimbasso!and!
Electronic!Wind!Instrument!in!the!Westdeuscher!Rundfunk!Big!Band),!but!these!are!
dependent!on!the!individual!players!and!cannot!be!expected!in!a!general!setting.!
! Medium!sized!ensembles!(sometimes!referred!to!as!“little!big!bands”),!such!
as!septets,!octets,!and!nonets!will!not!be!included,!except!as!background!information!
in!the!case!that!a!big!band!chart!originated!in!a!medium!sized!ensemble!(as!is!the!
case!in!some!of!Alan!Ferber’s!big!band!compositions).!Large!jazz!ensembles!
consisting!of!dramatically!different!instrumentations!(e.g.!Michael!Brecker’s!
quindectet!from!Wide(Angles)!will!also!be!excluded,!as!the!relationship!among!the!
instruments!and!scoring!is!significantly!different!in!these!groups.!
! In!terms!of!scope,!this!study!will!focus!on!the!period!beginning!with!the!
resurgence!of!big!bands!in!the!1990s,!particularly!after!the!landmark!release!of!
Maria!Schneider’s!first!album,!Evanescence,!in!1994,!and!continue!to!the!present!
day,!with!a!particular!focus!on!the!current!scene!and!related!issues.!Geographically,!
the!focus!will!be!on!the!two!largest!producers!of!big!band!music,!the!United!States!
!
5!
and!Western!Europe.!Latin!big!bands!will!not!be!included!in!the!project!for!several!
reasons.!These!bands!have!developed!along!a!different!lineage!and!have!their!own!
set!of!relevant!issues!that!do!not!always!correspond!with!the!rest!of!the!big!band!
scene.!Big!bands!led!by!vocalists!will!also!be!excluded,!as!they!too!have!evolved!
along!a!different!path.!
Types(of(Bands(Currently(Active(
! For!the!purposes!of!this!study,!active!big!bands!will!be!divided!into!five!
general!categories!(although!it!should!be!noted!that!these!categories!are!fluid):!
rehearsal!bands,!studio!bands,!repertory!bands,!working!bands,!and!school!bands.!
Each!plays!an!important!and!distinct!role!in!the!modern!big!band!scene.!
Rehearsal!Bands!
! Rehearsal!bands!offer!musicians!a!chance!to!network!with!one!another,!keep!
players’!reading!and!improvising!chops!fresh,!and!provide!opportunities!for!
composers!to!hear!their!works!performed.!The!term!“rehearsal!band”!is!actually!a!
misnomer,!as!these!bands!do!not!generally!rehearse!tunes.!Rather,!the!bands!usually!
meet!weekly!and!read!through!a!combination!of!standard!arrangements!and!new!
tunes!written!by!composers!who!typically!play!in!the!band.!Although!rehearsal!
bands!are!generally!viewed!as!inconsequential!to!the!overall!big!band!scene,!in!fact!
they!are!very!important!sites!for!sharing!the!love!and!excitement!that!many!feel!
towards!the!ensemble.!They!frequently!offer!amateurs!the!experience!of!playing!
with!professionals,!and!this!experience!helps!grow!the!ensemble’s!niche!fan!base.!
!
6!
Historically,!rehearsal!bands!have!also!helped!to!connect!various!highpoints!in!big!
band!output,!particularly!during!the!low!following!the!fall!of!dance!bands,!and!the!
low!point!between!the!first!resurgence!in!the!1970s!and!the!second!resurgence!in!
the!1990s.!
Studio!Bands!
! Studio!bands!were!also!an!important!connective!tissue,!especially!in!the!
1960s.!Alex!Stewart!clarifies:!
“Studio!bands!were!among!the!most!important!entities!for!the!propagation!of!
orchestral!jazz!after!the!decline!of!the!fullitime!bands.!!Most!were!assembled!
for!specific!recording!projects!and!had!no!life!outside!the!recording!studio.!!A!
look!at!the!personnel!on!these!sessions!reveals!the!same!names!cropping!up!
time!and!time!again!–!players!with!similar!competencies!who!were!
accustomed!to!working!together!and!thus!required!little!or!no!rehearsal!
time.!!Composeriarrangers!such!as!Oliver!Nelson,!Nelson!Riddle,!Henry!
Mancini,!Gerald!Wilson,!Billy!May,!and!Quincy!Jones!relied!on!these!networks!
of!musicians!to!produce!their!albums!of!big!band!jazz!in!the!1950s!and!
1960s.!!Their!style!of!writing!usually!adhered!to!certain!conventions!of!
phrasing,!articulation,!and!swing!that!facilitated!recording.!!As!described!by!
the!players,!‘the!charts!played!themselves.’!!This!form!of!praise!signified!that!
the!music!flowed!naturally!and!presented!little!in!the!way!of!pretentiousness!
or!artifice.!!Unlike!writing!that!demanded!extensive!rehearsals!and!frequent!
performance,!this!style!was!matched!to!the!competencies!and!conventions!of!
the!collaborative!art!worlds!that!performed!it.”5!
!
Stewart!does!overstate!the!stylistic!simplicities!of!music!written!for!studio!bands,!as!
many!were!the!first!to!incorporate!bebop!and!other!styles!not!usually!heard!in!prior!
big!band!arrangements.!
! The!1960s!is!generally!known!as!the!last!golden!age!of!studio!recording!in!
New!York!City.!According!to!Kenny!Berger,!most!top!performers!would!book!three!
recording!sessions!per!day,!each!session!typically!lasting!three!hours.!These!
performers!would!be!required!to!play!in!any!style!at!any!time,!so!they!had!to!be!
!
7!
nimble!and!well!versed!in!many!types!of!music.6!!Much!of!the!music!recorded!was!
commercial!in!nature,!so!the!musicians!relished!any!opportunity!to!play!serious!
music.!
One!jazz!composer!who!took!advantage!of!this!situation!was!Oliver!Nelson.!
Nelson!had!a!history!playing!with!big!bands,!and!was!a!welliknown!composer!for!
film!and!television.!The!big!band!music!he!recorded!in!New!York!in!the!1960s!
combined!various!styles!and!made!high!demands!of!the!players.!Because!of!this,!he!
put!together!bands!made!mostly!of!friends!who!he!knew!would!be!able!to!interpret!
his!arrangements!quickly!and!perform!them!well!under!pressure.!In!the!liner!notes!
to!an!Oliver!Nelson!big!band!compilation,!Kenny!Berger!notes!that!the!bands!on!
Nelson’s!sessions!were!not!bands!that!played!weekly!live!gigs,!and!never!rehearsed!
before!a!session.!Because!many!of!the!parts!contained!highly!difficult!passages,!
Nelson!had!to!hire!players!he!knew!were!capable!of!not!only!reading!the!charts!well,!
but!who!could!also!match!styles!and!interpretation.!For!this!reason,!Nelson!often!
used!the!same!players!on!multiple!sessions!over!many!years,!and!this!consistency!
allowed!him!to!write!solo!and!ensemble!parts!with!individual!players!in!mind,!much!
in!the!way!Duke!Ellington!did.7!
! A!jazz!composer!who!utilized!the!studio!system!quite!differently!in!the!1970s!
was!Charles!Tolliver.!Tolliver!had!been!a!small!group!player,!and!while!he!achieved!
some!success,!he!found!it!difficult!to!get!studio!time!with!Blue!Note!Records.!
Because!of!this,!Tolliver!and!Stanley!Cowell!started!their!own!label,!StrataiEast.!
Tolliver!decided!that!the!first!release!of!his!new!record!label!should!be!a!big!band.!
Tolliver!had!previously!written!some!big!band!charts!for!Gerald!Wilson’s!orchestra,!
!
8!
and!thought!that!the!larger!format!would!help!draw!attention!to!the!release.8!The!
concept!behind!Tolliver’s!album!was!notably!different!from!earlier!approaches!to!
big!band!writing.!In!this!case,!the!big!band!would!frame!his!quartet.!While!all!the!
tunes!contained!the!typical!ensemble!parts,!only!members!of!the!quartet!took!solos.!
This!served!a!dual!purpose!of!making!the!record!stand!out!while!capitalizing!on!the!
cachet!of!a!small!group!record.!The!band!never!performed!live,!because!Tolliver!and!
Cowell!lacked!the!major!financial!backing!needed!to!tour.!Tolliver!claims!that!he!and!
Cowell!never!had!any!ambitions!to!tour!with!the!band,!and!that!the!album!was!
simply!to!satisfy!their!own!desires!to!write!and!record!with!the!ensemble.9!Although!
Tolliver!performed!in!small!groups!for!the!next!several!decades,!he!assembled!a!big!
band!again!in!2006,!and!has!released!two!albums!with!his!new!band.!
Television!shows!have!incorporated!big!bands!into!their!programming!since!
the!birth!of!the!medium.!Many!of!the!late!night!shows!employed!a!big!band,!the!
longest!running!of!these!being!Doc!Severinsen’s!Tonight(Show!Band.!Beginning!in!
the!1960s,!many!television!soundtracks,!including!Ironside,!Columbo,!and!Hawaii(
FiveEO,!utilized!a!big!band!with!a!small!string!section.!Although!the!ensemble’s!
popularity!in!television!music!declined!in!the!1980s!and!1990s,!recent!television!
productions!–!Family(Guy!and!American(Dad!in!particular!–!have!used!big!bands!as!
an!integral!part!of!the!soundtrack.!The!band!for!these!shows,!led!by!Walter!Murphy,!
consists!of!top!studio!professionals!who!also!play!in!many!of!the!Los!Angeles!area!
big!bands.!Murphy’s!background!includes!several!years!as!the!arranger!for!Doc!
Severinsen!and!the!Tonight(Show!Band.!While!the!band!has!maintained!a!relatively!
stable!roster!since!it’s!inception!in!1999,!and!the!shows!have!become!quite!popular,!
!
9!
this!band!represents!an!anomaly.!Further,!the!band!functions!less!like!a!
contemporary!big!band!and!more!like!a!Broadway!pit!orchestra.!
! Another!band!that!started!as!a!studio!project,!but!eventually!transformed!
into!a!working!band!was!led!by!Toshiko!Akiyoshi!and!Lew!Tabackin.!According!to!
Leonard!Feather,!like!the!Thad!Jones/Mel!Lewis!Orchestra!in!New!York,!it!had!a!dual!
leadership,!and!contained!mostly!studio!jazz!musicians!looking!for!an!opportunity!
to!play!music!that!was!not!commercial!in!nature.10!Akiyoshi!originally!wanted!to!
start!a!big!band!in!New!York,!but!the!cost!of!renting!a!rehearsal!space!prohibited!the!
venture.!When!Tabackin!was!hired!for!the!Tonight(Show!Band!in!Los!Angeles,!
Akiyoshi!began!working!on!big!band!charts!for!a!band!to!be!started!there,!where!
rehearsal!spaces!were!(and!still!are)!more!affordable.!After!the!success!of!her!first!
two!studio!albums,!Kogun!and!Long(Yellow(Road,!Akiyoshi!and!Tabackin!began!
slowly!booking!tour!dates!for!the!band,!and!in!a!short!amount!of!time!the!studio!
band!became!a!working!band!on!the!success!of!its!albums.!
Working!Bands!
! Working!bands!make!up!the!smallest!portion!of!currently!active!big!bands.!
For!a!band!to!be!considered!a!proper!working!band,!it!must!either!tour!regularly!or!
have!an!established!weekly!gig.!Working!bands!are!typically!subdivided!into!road!
bands!and!bands!that!have!a!residency!at!a!jazz!club!or!other!venue.!Although!road!
bands!are!increasingly!rare,!there!were!several!groups!in!the!1960s!and!1970s!that!
toured!frequently.!The!most!significant!of!these!were!the!Woody!Herman,!Buddy!
Rich,!Count!Basie,!Toshiko!Akiyoshi/Lew!Tabackin,!and!Stan!Kenton!bands.!
!
10!
Herman’s!band!was!one!of!the!few!that!were!consistently!on!the!road!
throughout!the!low!period!that!began!in!the!1950s.!After!several!live!recording!
fiascos!and!not!being!able!to!sign!with!a!major!label!in!the!1950s,!Herman!
approached!Mercury,!and!found!support!from!Jack!Tracy.!Tracy!stated!that!he!
received!permission!to!sign!Herman!from!Mercury!president,!Irv!Green,!on!the!
condition!that!he!did!not!do!any!big!band!recordings,!given!the!high!expense.!Tracy!
recorded!several!quartet!albums,!but!after!hearing!the!big!band!live!was!convinced!
to!record!them.!He!was!informed!that!if!he!went!“over!budget!on!this,!it’s!your!
ass.”11!The!initial!record!sold!well!enough!that!the!label!signed!the!band!to!three!
more!albums.!In!a!2010!interview!with!Down(Beat,!John!Fedchock!shared!his!
thoughts!on!the!Herman!band!from!this!period.!Fedchock!worked!with!Herman!for!
seven!years,!serving!as!his!chief!arranger!and!musical!director,!so!he!was!quite!
familiar!with!the!various!incarnations!of!the!band.!He!claims!that!the!inclusion!of!
bebop!and!hard!bop!in!both!the!solos!and!charts,!as!well!as!the!cohesiveness!of!the!
players,!made!the!band!“plain!scary.”12!Herman!was!able!to!keep!his!band!fresh!in!
this!way,!adapting!the!vocabulary!of!bebop!and!hard!bop!to!the!large!group!format.!
! Other!bandleaders!in!the!1960s!and!1970s!used!various!approaches!to!keep!
their!bands!on!the!road.!Stan!Kenton’s!band!played!at!universities,!attracting!
younger!audiences.!Kenton!also!approached!the!big!band!with!more!of!an!ensemble!
focus.!Writing!in!1979,!John!McDonough!commented!on!the!difference!of!Kenton’s!
approach,!remarking!that!Kenton’s!approach!was!similar!to!Ellington’s,!in!that!it!
focused!on!ensemble!unity!rather!than!using!the!sections!as!backdrops!for!a!series!
of!solos.13!While!there!was!certainly!room!for!improvisation!in!Kenton’s!band,!the!
!
11!
focus!was!on!large!ensemble!sound!(which!often!included!extra!trombones,!
trumpets,!tuba,!and!French!horn),!while!Herman’s!band!retained!a!more!traditional!
instrumentation!and!used!arrangements!as!vehicles!for!individual!improvisation.!
The!Basie!band!of!the!1960s!and!1970s!lacked!a!unified!direction,!with!an!
assortment!of!different!composers!and!arrangers!providing!tunes!for!the!band.!That!
being!said,!most!of!the!tunes!incorporated!the!Basie!style,!with!simple!textures!and!
a!basis!primarily!in!the!blues.!The!success!of!the!Buddy!Rich!band!was!due!chiefly!to!
its!aggressive!playing!style!and!Rich’s!technical!prowess.!In!his!article,!“Some!
Straight!Talk!about!Big!Bands,”!Jim!Szantor!commented!that!in!the!case!of!the!Buddy!
Rich!band,!“the!leader’s!dynamism!and!charisma!are!perhaps!the!only!reason!the!
band!got!off!the!ground.”14!
! The!two!most!prominent!working!bands!with!established!gigs!in!the!late!
1960s!through!the!1980s!were!Doc!Severinsen’s!Tonight(Show!Band!and!the!Thad!
Jones/Mel!Lewis!Orchestra.!The!Tonight(Show!band!became!a!staple!of!the!Johnny!
Carsoniera!version!of!the!popular!late!night!television!program,!and!many!of!the!
players!on!the!band!also!worked!with!Buddy!Rich,!Woody!Herman,!and!Toshiko!
Akiyoshi.!The!Thad!Jones/Mel!Lewis!Orchestra,!established!in!the!midi1960s,!began!
as!a!rehearsal!band!to!read!new!arrangements!by!Jones.!The!band!eventually!
secured!a!regular!Monday!night!gig!at!the!Village!Vanguard,!and!became!an!almost!
instant!success!due!to!the!quality!of!Jones’!compositions!and!arrangements!and!the!
unique!approach!to!ensemble!textures.!Jones!and!Lewis!insisted!that!each!player!
maintain!their!own!individual!sound,!and!the!consistent!roster!of!the!band!allowed!
them!to!create!a!unique!blend!of!texture!made!up!of!personal!timbres.!In!Szantor’s!
!
12!
1979!article,!he!argued!that!although!Jones!for!the!most!part!utilized!the!basic!
format!of!a!big!band!chart,!his!innovations!in!voicing!and!melodic!construction!
proved!that!there!was!still!room!for!progress!within!the!traditional!big!band!chart.15!
After!the!departure!of!Jones!and!the!death!of!Lewis,!the!band!continued!as!
the!Vanguard!Jazz!Orchestra.!For!a!few!years,!the!band!lacked!direction,!until!Jim!
McNeely!accepted!the!position!of!resident!composer.!McNeely!has!continued!the!
tradition!of!innovative!arrangements!and!a!similar!approach!to!ensemble!textures!
that!had!defined!the!band!for!decades.!The!current!VJO!is!more!of!a!combination!of!a!
studio!band!and!a!rehearsal!band,!with!the!band!reading!charts!each!week!and!
trying!out!new!compositions!by!McNeely.!Once!the!band!is!comfortable!with!a!new!
set!of!charts,!they!will!record!them!for!a!new!album.!This!approach!has!both!
strengths!and!significant!drawbacks.!At!any!given!performance,!there!can!be!both!
the!excitement!of!a!band!reading!new!compositions,!but!also!a!possible!lack!of!
precision!that!comes!with!a!wellirehearsed!band.!
School!Bands!
! Many!big!band!players!moved!into!education!in!the!1950s!and!1960s!when!
regular!big!band!work!became!more!scarce,!and!this!began!a!trend!in!which!all!
forms!of!jazz!became!much!more!prominent!in!the!school!and!university!system.!
This!has!benefitted!jazz!in!general,!and!helped!younger!players!learn!various!styles!
and!begin!to!establish!networks.!According!to!Alex!Stewart,!“School!bands!have!
helped!to!structure!the!social!networks!of!New!York!City!big!bands!as!bonds!among!
players!often!lead!to!lasting!professional!relationships.”16!This!has!been!the!case!not!
!
13!
only!in!New!York!City,!but!in!other!urban!areas!as!well.!The!university!system!has!
also!provided!an!outlet!for!jazz!composers!and!arrangers,!and!in!fact!many!of!the!
current!leading!arrangers!are!tenured!professors!at!major!universities.!Arrangers!
and!composers!frequently!have!their!works!recorded!by!university!big!bands,!many!
of!which!release!albums!on!a!yearly!basis.!The!ensemble’s!relationship!with!the!
university!system!and!the!resulting!musical!and!cultural!changes!will!be!discussed!
in!a!separate!chapter.!
Repertory!Bands!
! As!the!name!would!imply,!repertory!bands!perform!canonical!big!band!
compositions.!Many!of!these!bands!focus!on!swing!era!music!and!appeal!to!a!certain!
nostalgia!associated!with!the!ensemble.!Repertory!bands!are!different!from!other!
types!of!big!bands!in!that!many!not!only!perform!strictly!older!compositions,!but!
also!often!attempt!to!mimic!the!original!source!exactly.!In!some!cases,!performers!
play!transcribed!solos!from!swing!era!musicians.!Many!of!these!bands!are!not!really!
considered!jazz!bands,!as!they!are!missing!one!of!the!most!important!elements!in!
jazz!–!improvisation.!Some!repertory!band!members!consider!the!groups!show!
bands!rather!than!jazz!bands.!These!bands!will!be!discussed!in!more!detail!in!the!
chapter!concerning!conservatism!in!big!band!music.!
The(Current(State(of(Big(Band(Scholarship(
! As!jazz!scholarship!began!to!emerge!in!the!1950s!and!1960s,!it!became!clear!
that!small!groups!were!viewed!as!the!vehicles!for!the!most!significant!advances!in!
!
14!
the!genre.!This!assumption!was!perhaps!due!to!the!decline!in!the!popularity!of!big!
bands!in!the!late!1940s!that!followed!a!decline!in!the!sophistication!of!the!music.!
The!tremendous!success!of!the!bands!of!the!1930s!inspired!many!imitators!who!
aimed!to!attract!larger!audiences!–!the!sophistication!of!the!Duke!Ellington!and!
Benny!Goodman!bands!became!the!bland!simplicity!of!the!Glenn!Miller!band.!At!the!
same!time,!small!groups!were!the!center!of!important!advances!in!jazz!style,!
creating!the!bebop,!cool,!and!hard!bop!styles!all!within!a!decade.!In!the!mid!to!late!
1950s,!when!jazz!studies!was!beginning!to!become!a!legitimate!part!of!the!
university!music!system,!not!only!were!big!bands!at!their!lowest!point,!but!some!of!
the!most!revered!small!group!recordings!were!being!made.!In!New!York,!Miles!Davis!
was!leading!his!first!great!quintet!(which!included!John!Coltrane!on!tenor!
saxophone,!Red!Garland!on!piano,!Paul!Chambers!on!bass,!and!Philly!Joe!Jones!on!
drums)!and!Art!Blakey!had!just!started!the!Jazz!Messengers!with!Horace!Silver,!
while!on!the!West!coast!Clifford!Brown!and!Max!Roach!(along!with!Sonny!Rollins!on!
tenor!saxophone,!Richie!Powell!on!piano,!and!George!Morrow!on!bass)!were!
recording!their!seminal!albums.!This!environment!permeated!the!beginnings!of!jazz!
scholarship,!and!in!many!ways!still!shapes!it!today.!
! This!focus!on!the!small!group!by!jazz!scholars!as!the!most!fertile!area!of!
innovation!may!result!from!a!bias!toward!certain!aspects!of!jazz.!!Alex!Stewart!
comments!that!this!may!have!something!to!do!with!an!implied!philosophical!stance!
that!has!become!increasingly!popular:!
“Contributing!to!the!marginalization!of!orchestral!jazz!has!been!the!tendency!
of!jazz!writers!and!scholars!to!prioritize!characteristics,!such!as!
improvisation!and!swing,!that!clearly!differentiate!jazz!from!classical!music.!
From!the!earliest!years!of!jazz,!emphasis!on!its!‘otherness’!has!extolled!the!
!
15!
oral!mode!over!written!texts,!the!‘freedom’!of!small!group!over!the!
‘regimentation’!of!the!large!group,!the!spontaneity!of!improvisation!over!the!
fixedness!of!the!composition.”17!
!
Because!music!performed!by!a!larger!number!of!musicians!must!necessarily!contain!
more!prewritten!sections,!the!role!of!improvisation!is!often!overlooked.!Likewise,!
the!approach!to!ensemble!textures!–!with!bands!typically!attempting!to!achieve!a!
cohesive!sound!that!does!not!deny!the!individuality!of!each!member!–!has!been!
ignored!by!scholars,!who!seem!to!believe!that!individual!sounds!are!subsumed!into!
the!larger!texture.!
! Much!of!the!big!band!scholarship!that!does!exist!comes!from!disciplines!
outside!of!jazz.!Historians!have!studied!the!cultural!aspects!of!jazz,!as!in!Lewis!
Erenberg’s!book,!Swingin’(the(Dream:(Big(Band(Jazz(and(the(Rebirth(of(American(
Culture.18!Erenberg!is!admittedly!not!a!musician,!and!while!his!historical!and!
cultural!analyses!provide!insight!into!the!period!of!the!early!big!bands,!his!
occasional!forays!into!musical!analysis!(or!rather!musical!description)!are!lacking!in!
any!precision!or!sophistication.!Scholars!in!the!field!of!African!American!Studies!
have!also!provided!valuable!insight!into!the!early!big!bands,!although!the!subject!
matter!is!overwhelmingly!the!Duke!Ellington!band.!The!importance!of!Ellington’s!
band!cannot!be!overstated,!but!there!are!several!other!bands!of!the!period!that!had!
at!least!as!much!influence!on!later!big!bands!(particularly!those!of!Benny!Goodman!
and!Count!Basie).!Ellington’s!position!as!a!cultural!icon!is!likely!the!reason!for!his!
seeming!monopoly!of!what!is!essentially!cultural!(more!so!than!musical)!research.!
For!instance,!Harvey!Cohen’s!article,!“The!Marketing!of!Duke!Ellington:!Setting!the!
Strategy!for!an!African!American!Maestro,”!published!in!The(Journal(of(African(
!
16!
American(History,!illuminates!the!particular!racial!challenges!in!selling!Ellington’s!
music!to!a!wider!audience.19!David!Metzer’s!“Shadow!Play:!the!Spiritual!in!Duke!
Ellington’s!Black(and(Tan(Fantasy,”!too,!is!more!a!study!of!the!spiritual’s!continuing!
place!in!black!culture!than!it!is!a!study!of!the!music!itself!or!the!ensemble.20!These!
studies!in!culture!are!certainly!valid!and!much!needed,!but!the!big!band!is!only!a!
side!note;!it!just!happens!to!be!the!ensemble!utilized!by!Ellington.!A!notable!
exception!is!Wolfram!Knauer’s!“’Simulated!Improvisation’!in!Duke!Ellington’s!Black,(
Brown,(and(Beige,”!in!which!he!details!how!Ellington!scored!the!arrangements!in!
such!a!way!to!give!an!improvisatory!feel!to!a!highly!organized!and!preicomposed!
work.21!The!real!problem!with!this!research!in!terms!of!the!current!project!is!that!it!
all!posits!big!band,!either!implicitly!or!explicitly,!as!a!singular!period!in!music!that!
existed!only!in!the!past,!ignoring!the!long!and!rich!history!of!the!ensemble!that!
continues!onward.!
Scholarship!of!a!more!practical!sort!is!found!in!the!field!of!music!education.!
Articles!such!as!Andrew!Goodrich’s!“Peer!Mentoring!in!a!High!School!Jazz!
Ensemble,”!published!in!the!Journal(of(Research(in(Music(Education,!touch!on!
important!issues!in!big!band!(apprenticeship!in!this!case),!but!do!so!in!a!practical!
sense!so!that!teachers!may!implement!the!principles!into!daily!rehearsals.22!The!
compendium,!Teaching(Music(Through(Performance(in(Jazz,!offers!many!articles!on!
jazz!education!from!leading!jazz!artists,!and!background,!performance!tips,!and!
analysis!of!65!big!band!charts.23!Again,!the!analysis!and!background!in!this!case!is!
tailored!toward!educators,!with!the!analysis!being!more!of!a!description!of!musical!
events!that!allows!a!director!to!decide!whether!or!not!the!piece!in!question!will!
!
17!
work!with!his!or!her!band.!In!terms!of!analysis,!the!only!real!source!with!any!depth!
is!the!text!by!Rayburn!Wright,!titled!Inside(the(Score:(a(detailed(analysis(of(8(classic(
jazz(ensemble(charts(by(Sammy(Nestico,(Thad(Jones,(and(Bob(Brookmeyer.24!While!
this!text!is!clearly!an!attempt!to!sell!more!charts!(since!the!book!and!the!scores!are!
all!published!by!Kendor),!it!is!also!the!most!inidepth!analysis!of!any!big!band!charts!
currently!published,!and!will!provide!some!of!the!foundations!and!techniques!for!
analysis!utilized!in!this!study.!
The!only!proper!scholarship!concerning!contemporary!big!bands!is!
musicologist!Alex!Stewart’s!book,!Making(the(Scene:(Contemporary(New(York(City(Big(
Band(Jazz!(and!a!related!article!published!in!Ethnomusicology),!which!documents!
the!New!York!big!band!scene!in!the!1990s.25!Stewart!offers!many!sound!insights!into!
the!big!band!world!of!New!York,!and!his!work!covers!a!number!of!relevant!topics!in!
detail,!including!repertory!orchestras,!styles!ranging!from!conservative!to!avanti
garde,!women!in!jazz,!and!the!musical!personalities!of!several!prominent!big!band!
composers.!His!work,!however,!does!not!explore!some!key!issues.!Perhaps!the!
largest!is!the!role!of!the!university!in!contemporary!big!bands.!It!is!quite!possible!
that!Stewart!intentionally!avoided!this!issue,!as!his!work!primarily!focused!on!
professionals.!However,!most!of!the!professionals!he!included!not!only!worked!in!
the!university!system,!but!many!of!them!were!a!product!of!it!(some,!in!fact,!the!first!
generation!to!learn!jazz!in!this!way).!Also,!his!own!entry!into!the!New!York!scene!
came!via!connections!formed!through!local!universities.!It!is!curious!that!he!decided!
not!to!explore!this!aspect!of!the!scene,!but!it!was!perhaps!too!large!a!topic!to!add.!
His!analysis!is!also!lacking!in!depth,!although!he!only!used!the!analytical!sections!to!
!
18!
illustrate!the!differing!musical!personalities!of!the!composers!he!profiled.!It!is!also!
difficult!to!know!what!copyright!issues!may!have!prevented!him!(and!others)!from!
deeper!analysis.!Regardless,!his!techniques!and!approaches,!as!well!as!the!areas!he!
chose!not!to!explore,!will!certainly!inform!the!present!project.!
Although!there!has!been!a!lack!of!engagement!with!big!band!music!in!
academic!publications,!there!have!been!several!jazz!magazines!to!cover!big!band!
music,!including!Metronome,!Jazz(Times,!and!most!notably,!Down(Beat!magazine.!
Since!the!decline!of!the!big!bands!in!the!late!1940s!and!1950s,!Down(Beat!has!been!
the!primary!source!for!big!band!articles,!mostly!written!by!a!small!group!of!
dedicatees.!One!of!the!early!regular!writers!about!big!band!was!Leonard!Feather,!
who!was!an!editor!at!Metronome,!jazz!critic!for!the!Los!Angeles!Times,!and!regular!
contributor!to!Down(Beat.!Feather!also!released!a!series!of!records!titled!Leonard(
Feather’s(Encyclopedia(of(Jazz,!the!first!volume!featuring!big!band!works!by!Oliver!
Nelson.!His!colleague,!Jim!Szantor,!also!wrote!several!articles!about!big!bands!in!the!
1970s,!including!the!previously!referenced!piece!titled!“Some!Straight!Talk!about!
Big!Bands,”!published!in!the!April!1972!issue,!in!which!he!outlines!some!of!the!
problems!with!big!bands!of!that!era,!as!well!as!new!currents!and!meditations!on!the!
future!of!the!ensemble.26!One!of!the!primary!champions!of!contemporary!big!band!
music!is!John!McDonough,!who!has!been!a!contributing!editor!for!Down(Beat!
magazine!since!1968.!McDonough’s!articles!have!anticipated!many!of!the!trends!that!
have!helped!the!ensemble!survive,!including!a!piece!on!the!Stan!Kenton!band!in!
1979!in!which!he!praises!Kenton’s!multifaceted!approach!in!connecting!with!fans.27!
!
19!
Recent!Down(Beat!writers!contributing!articles!on!contemporary!big!bands!
include!Dan!Ouellette,!who!has!written!articles!on!Maria!Schneider,!the!Mingus!Big!
Band,!Wynton!Marsalis,!and!Monika!Roscher;!Ted!Panken,!who!has!contributed!
articles!on!older!musicians!making!new!contributions!in!big!band,!including!Toshiko!
Akiyoshi!and!Dave!Holland;!and!Howard!Mandel,!who!has!written!about!new!media!
technologies!and!composers’!utilization!of!these!technologies!to!spread!their!music.!
In!particular,!Mandel!has!written!about!Darcy!James!Argue’s!use!of!blogs,!email,!
Facebook,!and!Twitter!to!engage!his!fans!directly,!essentially!continuing!the!work!
McDonough!began!with!the!Stan!Kenton!band!decades!earlier.28!
Economic(Challenges(
! Large!ensembles!naturally!face!economic!challenges,!and!given!the!niche!
appeal!of!contemporary!big!band!music,!maintaining!a!professional!ensemble!is!a!
difficult!task.!However,!according!to!John!Clayton,!coileader!of!the!ClaytoniHamilton!
Jazz!Orchestra,!funding!a!professional!big!band!is!no!more!difficult!in!present!times!
than!it!was!in!the!1930s.29!In!fact,!it!would!appear!that!low!points!in!the!American!
economy!seem!to!correspond!with!an!increased!level!of!big!band!activity!and!
output.!A!potential!reason!for!this!is!that!in!times!when!there!is!less!work!available!
for!performing!musicians,!players!are!more!willing!to!take!low!paying!gigs!that!offer!
the!benefit!of!building!networks,!given!the!large!number!of!musicians!involved.!
When!compared!to!small!group!jazz!gigs,!the!big!band!also!offers!wind!players!the!
opportunity!to!network!with!people!who!play!their!own!instrument.!This!
opportunity!is!not!typically!present!in!small!group!gigs,!where!there!is!rarely!more!
!
20!
than!one!of!each!type!of!wind!instrument.!Further!quantitative!research!is!needed!in!
order!to!objectively!verify!this!trend,!accounting!for!several!statistical!issues,!
including!the!number!of!professional!bands!active,!the!frequency!of!performances!of!
each!band,!the!number!of!recordings!released!during!a!given!period,!etc.!It!should!
also!be!noted!that!there!are!many!other!factors!that!contribute!to!the!ensemble’s!
level!of!popularity.!
! The!inability!of!the!ensemble!to!generate!enough!revenue!to!provide!the!
primary!financial!support!of!all!of!its!members!also!creates!more!vibrant!scenes!in!
areas!with!a!strong!presence!of!alternate!forms!of!performance!work.!In!the!United!
States,!the!cities!with!the!most!prevalent!big!band!scenes!are!New!York!and!Los!
Angeles.!Both!of!these!cities!have!their!own!industries!that!draw!musicians!and!give!
them!the!financial!backing!that!allows!them!to!participate!in!ensembles!for!
enjoyment!that!do!not!offer!high!compensation.!In!New!York,!there!are!Broadway!
shows,!recording!gigs,!and!a!large!number!of!venues!for!small!group!gigs.!When!I!
spoke!to!New!York!based!composer!Alan!Ferber,!he!stated!that!his!compositional!
output!increased!while!playing!for!a!touring!Broadway!production.!Playing!the!same!
show!on!a!daily!basis!can!become!somewhat!monotonous,!and!most!show!
performers!seek!creative!outlets!during!their!off!time.!For!Ferber,!composing!
became!an!important!outlet!–!“therapy,”!as!he!called!it!–!and!he!was!able!to!enlist!
the!help!of!other!performers!from!the!show!who!were!also!looking!for!a!chance!to!
do!something!different.30!The!Los!Angeles!scene!is!primarily!supported!by!the!film,!
television,!and!video!game!music!industries.!In!an!article!for!Down(Beat!magazine!in!
2004,!Josef!Woodard!noted!that!Los!Angeles!based!Gordon!Goodwin’s!Big!Phat!Band!
!
21!
“is!made!possible!by!the!gainful!employment!of!the!mainstream!entertainment!
industry.”31!Goodwin!stated!that!although!he!wanted!to!start!a!big!band!for!years,!he!
had!put!it!off!in!order!to!focus!on!his!more!lucrative!film!and!television!projects.!
Like!Ferber,!his!desire!to!create!something!outside!of!his!dayitoiday!work!
eventually!led!to!the!founding!of!the!Big!Phat!Band.!According!to!Woodard,!the!
members!of!the!band!have!two!musical!lives,!one!in!the!commercial!recording!
industry!and!the!other!performing!music!they!find!personally!rewarding.32!There!
are!other!cities!in!the!United!States!that!have!large!enough!populations!to!support!a!
big!band!scene,!but!without!these!other!supporting!industries!many!are!unable!to!
attract!enough!working!jazz!performers.!!
Several!countries!in!Europe!have!widespread!thriving!big!band!scenes!
without!as!large!a!presence!of!other!performance!industries,!and!they!are!able!to!do!
so!because!of!government!and!radio!sponsorships!of!big!bands!(among!other!
ensembles).!German!expatriate!Chris!Walden!commented!in!a!2007!interview!with!
Down(Beat!magazine!that!although!the!United!States!is!the!birthplace!of!big!bands,!
Europeans!have!been!adding!their!voice!to!the!ensemble!over!the!past!several!
decades.!Walden!notes!that!although!the!European!bands!are!still!viewed!as!
secondary!to!their!American!counterparts,!they!do!not!struggle!as!much!with!
financial!issues!thanks!to!the!available!funding.33!While!Walden!is!generally!correct!
about!the!comparatively!generous!funding!of!European!big!bands,!it!should!be!noted!
that!maintaining!government!sponsorship!is!not!entirely!certain.!One!of!the!most!
famous!European!big!bands,!the!Vienna!Art!Orchestra,!suffered!from!decreased!
funding!following!the!world!financial!downturn!in!2008,!and!finally!disbanded!in!
!
22!
2010,!after!33!years!in!existence!and!releasing!36!albums.!If!a!group!as!well!known!
and!successful!as!the!Vienna!Art!Orchestra!can!lose!funding,!it!is!clear!that!public!
funding!does!not!provide!the!complete!safety!that!some!might!imply.!
! In!the!United!States,!where!public!funding!for!the!arts!in!general!is!relatively!
sparse,!many!bandleaders!personally!provide!all!of!the!funding!for!their!ensembles.!
In!a!2007!interview!with!Down(Beat!magazine,!John!Clayton!stated!that!most!of!the!
funding!for!the!ClaytoniHamilton!Jazz!Orchestra!comes!from!arranging!and!touring!
with!Diana!Krall,!as!well!as!a!number!of!small!band!gigs!and!teaching!jobs!outside!of!
his!fullitime!position!at!the!University!of!Southern!California.34!Likewise,!when!I!
interviewed!Nate!Kimball,!he!stated!that!the!funding!of!his!recent!album,!Gaea,!came!
from!a!number!of!different!sources,!including!grants,!sheet!music!sales,!and!real!
estate!commissions.35!U.S.!bandleaders!often!must!make!many!personal!sacrifices!in!
order!to!fund!their!ensembles.!Darcy!James!Argue!pointed!out!to!me!that!there!are!
both!positive!and!negative!aspects!to!this!situation.!The!“romanticization!of!the!
starving!artist,”!as!he!puts!it,!has!a!negative!impact!on!the!arts.!He!states!that!artists!
should!not!suffer,!and!suffering!does!not!have!a!positive!impact!on!an!artist’s!work.!
However,!he!does!find!inspiration!from!the!sacrifices!being!made!by!bandleaders:!
“[T]here’s!something!to!the!idea!of!people!who!believe!in!something!so!
strongly!that!they!are!willing!to!make!personal!sacrifices!in!order!to!make!it!
happen,!and!big!band!is!kind!of!the!epitome!of!that.!There’s!no!one!who’s!
doing!this!who!isn’t!fully!committed!to!the!idea!of!big!band!as!a!
contemporary!venue,!as!a!setting!for!contemporary!music,!and!to!me!that’s!
so!exciting!that!there!are!people!who!believe!in!it!so!strongly.”36!
This!extreme!dedication!to!creating!contemporary!music!for!the!ensemble!
and!willingness!to!make!many!sacrifices!to!do!so!is!shared!by!most,!if!not!all,!
bandleaders!in!the!United!States.!One!might!wonder!what!about!the!ensemble!
!
23!
would!trigger!this!level!of!dedication.!Alan!Ferber’s!description!to!me!of!his!big!
band’s!first!gig!provides!an!answer!that!many!other!leaders!have!echoed.!Ferber!
described!the!high!associated!with!hearing!his!music!played!by!the!ensemble,!and!
he!compared!the!addictiveness!of!this!feeling!to!a!bad!drug!–!there!is!no!money!or!
fame!to!be!found!in!leading!a!big!band,!but!the!feeling!alone!is!worth!the!hard!work!
and!long!hours.37!Gordon!Goodwin!echoes!Ferber,!suggesting!that!the!lack!of!
funding!in!the!United!States!means!that!the!musicians!involved!are!pursuing!the!
music!for!strictly!artistic!reasons!rather!than!seeking!financial!gain.!He!states,!“My!
band!members!make!a!lot!of!sacrifices!to!play!this!music.!There’s!something!about!
18!guys!pulling!on!the!same!end!of!a!rope!that’s!its!own!compensation.”38!
In!my!interview!with!Darcy!James!Argue,!he!noted!that!the!musicians!in!
many!American!big!bands!play!essentially!as!a!favor!to!the!bandleader.39!This!
results!in!bands!with!very!distinct!musical!personalities!that!emanate!from!the!
bandleader/composer,!as!most!working!bands!only!have!one!or!two!primary!
composers.!This!is!in!contrast!to!the!homogenization!of!big!band!styles!that!
occurred!in!the!late!1930s!and!early!1940s,!a!time!when!musicians!from!popular!
bands!were!able!to!make!a!living!touring.!Courting!a!larger!audience!for!financial!
rewards!meant!that!bands!were!primarily!concerned!with!maintaining!their!
popularity.!The!niche!appeal!of!modern!bands!creates!a!scene!in!which!unique!
personal!expression!is!the!ultimate!goal!and!reward.!
! The!presence!of!full!funding!has!had!varied!effects!on!big!bands!in!Europe!
and!the!United!States,!in!large!part!due!to!cultural!differences.!The!majority!of!
European!big!bands!receive!government!sponsorship,!and!it!has!allowed!them!the!
!
24!
security!to!create!much!more!experimental!music.!The!Monika!Roscher!Big!Band!
incorporates!electronic!instruments,!drum!machines,!and!popular!musiciinspired!
vocals!processed!with!effects.!Jazz!Bigband!Graz’s!2009!release,!Electric(Poetry(and(
LoEFi(Cookies,!takes!the!implementation!of!electronics!and!effects!a!step!further,!
using!studio!effects!to!essentially!remix!and!rework!the!sounds!of!the!band!into!
music!that!is!essentially!disconnected!with!the!stylistic!tradition!of!the!ensemble.!In!
the!United!States,!the!only!bands!to!receive!this!level!of!funding!are!the!military!big!
bands!(most!notably!the!Airmen!of!Note)!and!the!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center!Orchestra.!
In!contrast!to!their!European!counterparts,!these!bands!tend!to!have!musically!
conservative!tendencies.!The!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center!Orchestra!in!particular!is!known!
for!its!conservative!agenda,!ignoring!most!musical!developments!in!jazz!after!the!
hard!bop!of!the!1950s!and!modeling!itself!after!the!Duke!Ellington!band.!The!band!
was!introduced!in!1988!during!a!series!of!concerts!that!were!even!labeled!“Classical!
Jazz.”!This!association!with!classical!music!in!the!United!States!mirrors!the!
conservatism!within!the!classical!music!scene.!It!is!difficult!to!place!a!direct!
relationship!between!funding!in!the!United!States!and!musical!conservatism,!but!
trends!certainly!seem!to!suggest!a!connection.!
!
25!
! Despite!the!economic!difficulties!in!maintaining!a!big!band,!the!community!of!
individuals!who!continue!to!write!and!perform!in!these!ensembles!remains!
dedicated!to!creating!innovative!new!music.!One!outside!influence!has!not!only!
made!it!easier!to!get!this!music!out!to!its!audience,!but!has!had!an!impact!on!
Western!culture!and!in!some!ways!encouraged!the!acceptance!of!these!many!
different!voices:!new!media!technologies.!
!
26!
CHAPTER(2:(METHODS(OF(DISSEMINATION(
&(THEIR(EFFECTS(ON(THE(MUSIC(
! In!his!famous!book,!Understanding(Media,!Marshall!McLuhan!stated!that!the!
“medium!is!the!message,”!meaning!that!any!medium!for!the!dissemination!of!media!
texts!will!have!an!effect!on!the!texts!themselves.1!This!is!certainly!the!case!with!big!
band!music,!both!in!the!early!years!of!popularity!and!in!the!current!scene.!As!stated!
earlier,!the!economic!situation!in!the!United!States!was!similar!in!both!the!early!to!
mid!1930s!during!the!Great!Depression!and!in!the!posti2008!recession,!with!most!
people!facing!economic!hardship!and!limited!employment.!Maintaining!a!big!band!in!
such!tough!economies!is!a!difficult!enterprise,!and!in!both!cases!big!bands!made!use!
of!new!technologies!for!dissemination!to!foster!the!tradition.!Although!the!current!
level!of!popularity!of!big!bands!certainly!does!not!approach!their!popularity!in!the!
early!1930s,!the!niche!approach!of!big!band!leaders!and!the!pluralism!encouraged!
by!online!circulation!nonetheless!keeps!more!groups!working!than!in!the!heyday!of!
big!bands.!The!differences!in!the!technologies!used!for!dissemination!–!radio!in!the!
1930s!and!the!internet!in!the!current!scene!–!have!had!an!impact!not!only!on!the!
number!of!bands!working,!but!the!musical!styles!employed!by!composers!and!
bandleaders.!
Distribution(vs.(Circulation(
! In!their!book,!Spreadable(Media,!Henry!Jenkins,!Sam!Ford,!and!Joshua!Green!
posit!that!we!are!amidst!a!change!in!the!model!of!dissemination!of!media!content,!
!
27!
from!a!broadcast!model!to!a!spreadable!one.2!This!change!can!be!represented!by!
two!types!of!stage!lighting:!the!spotlight!and!the!scoop!light.!The!spotlight!focuses!
attention!on!a!single!subject,!with!a!clearly!defined!boundary!between!who!or!what!
is!illuminated,!while!everything!else!is!in!darkness.!One!is!clearly!either!in!the!
spotlight!or!not.!The!scoop!light!casts!a!softer!diffused!light!over!a!larger!area,!with!a!
much!less!defined!boundary.!Radio,!like!other!broadcast!media,!is!like!the!spotlight!
in!that!it!utilizes!a!oneitoimany!approach.!This!is!also!sometimes!referred!to!as!the!
stickiness!model!–!content!is!available!from!a!single!source,!and!the!hope!is!that!if!it!
is!compelling!to!a!mass!audience,!people!will!come!to!this!single!source.!The!
spreadable!model!is!like!the!scoop!light!in!that!the!way!media!spreads!is!fueled!by!
the!actions!of!fan!communities.!The!relationships!between!content!producers!and!
audience!members!are!also!drastically!changed!in!the!spreadable!model.!Jenkins!
and!his!colleagues!elaborate,!stating!that!the!roles!of!producer,!marketer,!and!
audience!are!quite!clear!and!separate!in!the!stickiness!model.!In!the!spreadable!
model,!however,!there!is!a!blurring!of!the!distinctions!and!often!collaboration!across!
the!various!roles.3!!
The!broadcast!model!benefits!the!few!who!are!able!to!stay!in!the!spotlight,!at!
the!detriment!of!others.!In!1930s!big!bands,!this!not!only!meant!that!few!bands!
were!able!to!stay!in!the!spotlight!and!continue!working,!but!it!also!led!to!a!
homogenization!of!style.!Lewis!Erenberg,!author!of!Swinging(the(Dream:(Big(Band(
Jazz(and(the(Rebirth(of(American(Culture,!explains!that!with!the!birth!of!radio!and!the!
popularization!of!big!band!jazz,!the!once!thriving!territory!bands!were!the!ultimate!
victims.!Before!this!change,!many!bands!worked!in!different!regions,!each!with!their!
!
28!
own!distinct!style.!The!overwhelming!popularity!of!the!New!York!bands!via!radio!
caused!many!of!the!territory!bands!to!mimic!their!musical!style!in!a!desperate!
attempt!to!remain!relevant!(and!keep!working).!While!this!was!ultimately!
unsuccessful,!the!end!result!was!that!the!New!York!style!replaced!the!various!
regional!approaches.4!
So!while!the!popularity!of!the!ensemble!was!at!its!peak!in!the!1930s,!there!
were!actually!fewer!successful!bands!than!in!the!years!prior,!with!only!national!
stars!like!Duke!Ellington!and!Benny!Goodman!making!enough!money!and!gaining!
enough!exposure!to!keep!their!bands!running.!These!few!bands!dictated!the!styles!
of!music!performed!by!the!ensemble,!with!smaller!bands!attempting!to!emulate!one!
of!their!more!successful!counterparts.!Even!when!the!Kansas!City!riffibased!style!of!
Count!Basie!was!“discovered”!by!John!Hammond,!the!band!immediately!moved!to!
Chicago,!and!to!New!York!shortly!thereafter.!This!is!not!to!say!that!there!were!not!
significant!differences!in!the!approaches!of!each!nationally!known!band,!but!their!
popularity!certainly!reduced!the!number!of!regional!variations.!
! By!contrast,!the!pluralism!encouraged!by!the!spreadable!model!allows!for!
more!stylistic!variation.!Maria!Schneider’s!narrative!forms!and!extensive!use!of!
woodwind!doubles,!Darcy!James!Argue’s!use!of!minimalism!and!leitmotif,!Alan!
Ferber’s!reiimagining!of!both!the!music!of!Bjork!and!oddimeter!Balkan!melodies,!
and!Gordon!Goodwin’s!big!band!arrangements!of!classical!pieces!all!represent!
individual!approaches!to!the!ensemble!that!defy!genre!classification!(some!of!this!
music!will!be!explored!in!more!detail!in!the!final!chapter).!Such!diverse!approaches!
are!not!supported!in!a!broadcast!model,!which!seeks!to!attract!mass!audiences.!The!
!
29!
interactions!of!fans!and!other!musicians!in!the!spreadable!model!allows!this!music!
to!be!shared!among!networks!of!people!who!would!have!had!more!difficulty!
connecting!with!one!another!before!the!internet!allowed!for!niche!social!networks!
to!share!content!more!easily.!
! Bertolt!Brecht!envisioned!this!type!of!interaction!between!creators!and!
listeners!in!1932,!suggesting!that!there!should!be!a!way!to!make!radio!
communication!two!sided!rather!than!one.!He!argued!that!changing!radio!from!a!
system!of!distribution!to!one!of!communication!would!allow!the!transmitter!and!the!
listen!to!have!a!relationship,!rather!than!isolating!the!two!from!one!another.5!
Although!the!technology!did!not!exist!in!Brecht’s!time!to!achieve!such!a!thing,!social!
media!has!finally!made!this!type!of!relationship!between!musicians!and!listeners!a!
reality.!Spreadability!understands!the!importance!of!relationships!between!people,!
which!are!not!only!made!more!apparent!by!social!media!platforms,!but!also!
broadened!and!deepened.6!
In!order!for!media!to!be!spreadable,!it!also!must!be!in!an!easily!shared!
format.!This!concept!is!called!“grabbability”7!by!Jenkins!et!al.,!and!is!also!designated!
as!“permeability”8!by!Jean!Burgess!and!Joshua!Green.!Grabbability!is!perhaps!the!
better!term,!as!it!emphasizes!the!actions!of!people!sharing!content,!while!
permeability!suggests!that!the!material!itself!has!some!agency.!With!the!popularity!
of!YouTube,!Spotify,!Pandora,!and!other!media!hubs!with!easily!linked!embed!codes,!
people!can!share!recordings,!live!performances,!lectures,!interviews,!and!other!
materials!related!to!big!band!music.!While!the!sharing!of!recordings,!videos,!etc.,!is!
certainly!not!a!new!phenomenon,!the!convenience!of!sharing!material!via!social!
!
30!
media!invites!people!to!share!more!material!with!more!people.!Embeded!codes!also!
provide!many!access!points!to!the!same!content!in!a!number!of!places!across!the!
internet,!making!it!easier!to!spread!content!more!quickly.9!This!is!a!key!point!in!
differentiating!the!broadcast!model!from!the!spreadable!one:!broadcast!requires!
people!to!come!to!a!single!place!(often!at!a!specified!time)!to!access!content,!while!
the!spreadable!model!allows!for!many!points!of!entry!available!at!any!time.!The!
appeal!of!this!model!to!a!niche!genre!like!big!band!is!clear.!Spreadable!media!allows!
for!content!to!engage!more!deeply!within!a!particular!community.!While!this!
engagement!is!not!enough!to!qualify!for!a!mainstream!viral!phenomenon,!the!
content!producer!is!able!to!reach!more!people!in!the!intended!audience.10!Big!band!
music!that!would!have!a!limited!reach!within!the!traditional!broadcast!and!
distribution!model!is!thus!spread!among!fans.!It!is!also!able!to!reach!new!audiences!
serendipitously,!as!shared!music!and!videos!on!social!media!will!reach!a!person’s!
various!networks,!some!of!which!do!not!consist!of!big!band!enthusiasts.!This!lateral!
movement!creates!new!fans,!who!may!eventually!become!part!of!the!niche!
community!and!engage!with!other!big!band!content!producers.!
Participatory(Culture(
! The!proliferation!of!spreadable!media!has!made!culture!more!participatory.!
Where!the!distribution!model!isolated!both!content!producers!and!audience!
members,!the!circulation!model!encourages!active!participation,!and!this!
participation!is!not!simply!limited!to!a!mere!“thumbs!up”!or!“thumbs!down.”!People!
are!not!only!sharing!media!with!one!another,!but!also!refashioning!and!remixing!it!
!
31!
as!well,!actually!changing!the!substance!and!perspective!of!the!original!content.!This!
new!way!of!interacting!with!media!is!happening!on!a!global!scale,!with!reiformed!
content!spreading!far!beyond!an!individual’s!local!community.11!It!should!be!noted,!
however,!that!while!it!is!certainly!true!that!there!are!more!ways!to!directly!interact!
with!media!texts!today!than!there!were!before!the!rise!of!digital!circulation,!culture!
has!always!been!participatory!to!some!degree.!
Speaking!about!the!early!big!band!audience,!Lewis!Erenberg!notes!that!most!
historians!have!viewed!the!young!crowds!as!passive!recipients!of!the!music,!rather!
than!active!participants!in!it.!He!argues!that!despite!objections!from!the!elder!
generation,!the!young!big!band!audience!sought!to!express!themselves!through!
music!and!dance,!regardless!of!the!difficulties!of!living!during!the!Great!Depression.!
In!fact,!these!difficulties!reduced!the!differences!among!the!youth,!even!across!racial!
and!ethnic!lines,!and!helped!revitalize!the!idea!of!mass!culture.12!So!while!
participation!has!always!been!an!important!factor!in!any!culture,!there!are!perhaps!
more!measurable!ways!to!participate!in!a!networked!society.!The!tools!of!
participation!also!provide!niche!communities!with!ways!of!interacting!with!one!
another!that!effectively!erase!geographic!distances.!In!the!case!of!contemporary!big!
bands,!many!fans!might!have!only!a!few!people!they!see!on!a!daily!basis!who!are!
also!fans,!but!social!networking!platforms!–!Facebook,!Twitter,!internet!forums,!etc.!
–!allow!fans!who!may!never!meet!in!real!life!to!connect!with!one!another.!Daily!
contact!with!other!fans!acts!to!strengthen!the!community.!
! The!sharing!of!content!among!the!big!band!community!also!creates!cultural!
capital!for!the!sharers.!Sharing!videos!or!audio!files!of!songs!that!others!have!not!
!
32!
heard!affirms!that!the!sharer!is!a!connoisseur!of!the!genre,!and!earns!them!respect!
in!the!community.!Jenkins!and!his!colleagues!explain!this!dynamic!in!niche!
communities,!stating!that!the!perspectives!held!in!niche!communities!are!rarely!
represented!in!mass!media,!and!the!content!produced!and!shared!in!this!DIY!fashion!
provide!a!way!to!express!those!perspectives.!Further,!since!members!of!niche!
communities!are!spreading!material!that!is!personally!meaningful!to!them,!there!is!
special!importance!in!the!circulation!of!this!material,!which!encourages!more!honest!
and!meaningful!interactions!with!family!and!friends.13!
In!addition!to!facilitating!communication!among!fans,!new!technologies!allow!
for!fans!to!communicate!directly!with!creators.!Perhaps!the!most!adept!at!fan!
communication!in!the!current!big!band!scene!is!Darcy!James!Argue.!When!Argue’s!
Secret!Society!began!performing!in!2005,!he!also!created!a!blog!to!share!not!only!
concert!reviews!and!upcoming!gigs,!but!also!to!share!his!thoughts!and!feelings!
about!performances,!running!a!big!band,!and!eventually!other!topics.!Through!this!
blog,!his!fans!were!able!to!get!to!know!him!in!a!way!that!most!fan!communities!are!
not!able!to!connect!with!artists.!In!an!interview!with!Howard!Mandel!for!Down(Beat!
magazine,!Argue!stated!that!blogging!was!a!way!of!humanizing!his!music!and!
insuring!that!he!did!not!appear!distant!or!unwelcoming.14!Argue!closed!the!blog!site!
in!2013,!but!continues!to!interact!directly!with!fans!via!Twitter!and!Facebook.!The!
deeper!engagement!fans!have!with!him!and!his!music!help!foster!a!community!
around!the!band!and!keeps!fans!involved!with!new!developments.!
! There!is!a!precedent!for!this!type!of!fan!engagement!in!the!Stan!Kenton!band!
of!the!1970s.!The!ensemble!had!been!in!decline!for!decades,!yet!Kenton’s!band!
!
33!
remained!hugely!successful!due!to!the!inclusion!of!the!fans!in!the!inner!workings!of!
the!band.!Jim!Szantor!outlined!Kenton’s!method!in!his!“Straight!Talk”!article!on!big!
bands!in!1972:!
“The!return!of!Kenton!to!the!wars!fullitime!has!been!encouraging!on!many!
fronts.!First!and!foremost,!the!accent!has!been!on!music,!new!music,!and!the!
band!is!clearly!a!band!of!today.!Also,!Kenton,!thanks!to!both!the!band’s!
excellence!and!his!close!ties!with!music!education!through!his!famous!clinics,!
has!perhaps!the!youngest!(and!fastestigrowing!youngest)!following!of!all!the!
bands.!But!equally!important!is!the!success!of!Kenton’s!Creative!World.!
Unless!you’ve!been!totally!out!to!lunch!for!about!two!years,!you!know!Kenton!
is!producing!and!selling!his!records!through!his!own!company,!which!has!a!
growing!‘membership’!that!receives!monthly!newsletters!in!which!band!
news!and!itinerary!plus!catalog!information!are!made!available.!Kenton,!then!
has!accomplished!two!things:!he!has!expanded!his!fandom!while!ridding!
himself!of!the!problems!involved!with!being!attached!to!a!commercial!label!
and!he!has!seemingly!found!a!very!nice,!simple,!and!logical!way!of!bringing!
that!fandom!closer!to!the!dayitoiday!operations!of!the!band.!Every!band!has!
its!loyal!following!but!too!often!these!loyalists!don’t!have!the!foggiest!notion!
of!where!the!band!is!or!what!it’s!doing!(or!what!the!record!companies!will!
put!out!next).!There’s!also!a!psychological!factor!here.!The!Kenton!fans!feel!
like!they’re!a!part!of!things!and!what!could!be!nicer!than!that?”15!
!
Like!Argue,!Kenton’s!inclusion!of!the!fans!in!more!than!just!albums!and!
performances!helped!build!a!community!around!the!band!and!create!deeper!
engagement!with!the!music.!
Access!
! A!key!issue!in!any!discussion!of!technology!that!facilitates!interaction!is!who!
has!access!to!this!technology.!Some!technologists!promote!a!fully!networked!future!
as!a!utopia!where!information!can!be!shared!with!everyone!and!connections!can!be!
made!among!diverse!groups!of!people.!The!problem!with!this!vision!is!that!many!
people!are!excluded!from!the!online!activities!most!of!us!take!for!granted.!The!
largest!barrier!to!participation!in!networked!society!is!an!economic!one.!The!cost!of!
!
34!
internetienabled!devices!and!the!accompanying!internet!service!is!too!high!for!
many!poor!families.!Tablets!and!smartphones!have!increased!access!due!to!their!
lower!cost,!but!there!is!still!progress!to!be!made.!Economic!divisions!sometimes!also!
run!along!racial!borders,!as!a!legacy!of!racial!inequality!in!the!United!States!results!
in!people!in!minority!communities!being!more!likely!to!be!among!the!poor.!
Additionally,!people!learn!how!to!use!social!media!from!friends!and!family,!meaning!
a!person!from!a!poor!community!is!less!likely!to!know!how!to!use!these!
technologies.!Even!if!they!do!have!the!opportunity!to!participate!in!online!culture,!
without!family!and!friends!to!act!as!digital!role!models,!it!is!highly!unlikely!that!
someone!could!learn!to!effectively!navigate!social!media!platforms.!
! The!technology!of!dissemination!of!big!band!music!in!the!1930s!had!a!direct!
effect!on!race!relations,!due!to!the!fact!that!the!race!of!band!members!was!not!
immediately!apparent,!given!the!audio!only!formats!of!records!and!radio.!Lewis!
Erenberg!notes:!
“A!combination!of!ready!access!and!the!mechanical!reproduction!of!music!
removed!some!of!the!sacredness!surrounding!works!of!art,!enabling!young!
fans!to!treat!swing!as!particularly!theirs…!At!the!same!time,!swing!musicians!
operated!nationally,!in!more!open,!democratic!spaces.!Those!spaces!now!
included!greater!interaction!between!whites!and!blacks!than!ever!before.!As!
aural!media,!radio!and!records!removed!some!of!the!visual!definitions!of!
race,!allowing!music!played!by!blacks!or!whites!to!reach!the!senses!in!direct,!
unrestricted!ways.!The!swing!era!thus!witnessed!the!possibility!for!mass!
personal!liberation!and!the!democratization!of!cultural!connoisseurship.”16!
!
Radio!helped!democratize!big!band!music!in!terms!of!race!and!allowed!more!people!
access!to!it.!Those!who!could!not!afford!to!buy!records!or!a!phonograph!could!listen!
to!regular!offerings!on!the!radio,!as!radios!were!cheap!and!readily!available.!
!
35!
Stripping!the!music!of!racial!associations!also!allowed!people!from!diverse!ethnic!
backgrounds!to!engage!with!it,!as!it!was!not!marketed!to!a!specific!race.!
! Radio!also!offered!access!to!rural!populations!who!previously!would!not!
have!had!access!to!music!created!in!urban!centers.!Online!circulation!has!had!a!
similar!effect,!granting!people!in!many!areas!of!the!word!access!to!media!that!
previously!might!have!only!been!available!in!certain!countries!or!major!urban!areas.!
The!spreadable!model!goes!a!step!further!by!not!only!allowing!rural!populations!
access!to!urban!material,!but!also!allowing!material!created!outside!urban!centers!to!
be!spread!among!various!communities.!While!most!big!bands!are!still!located!in!
large!cities!(primarily!New!York!and!Los!Angeles),!bands!situated!in!smaller!cities!
are!now!able!to!play!a!role!in!the!national!scene.!These!bands!include!the!Airmen!of!
Note!in!Washington,!D.C.,!The!John!Labarbera!Big!Band!in!Louisville,!The!Captain!
Black!Big!Band!in!Philadelphia,!and!many!others.!
Creating(a(New(Moral(Economy(Based(Around(Free(Content(
! Although!media!is!more!accessible!to!target!audiences,!an!issue!for!content!
creators!is!how!to!monetize!their!content.!Bandleaders!obviously!want!people!to!
hear!their!music,!but!most!spreadable!formats!typically!do!not!generate!significant!
revenue.!Erenberg!describes!a!parallel!situation!of!the!early!1930s,!stating!that!
radio!offered!a!free!alternative!to!purchasing!records.!Surpluses!of!records!clogged!
warehouses,!and!sales!remained!low!even!after!prices!were!lowered!from!75!to!35!
cents!because!people!would!not!(and!in!some!cases!could!not)!pay!for!something!
they!could!get!for!free.17!Similarly,!the!recording!industry!has!experienced!a!decline!
!
36!
in!recent!years,!with!50%!fewer!albums!sold!in!2014!than!in!2000.!iTunes,!the!
largest!source!of!paid!downloadable!music,!experienced!a!drop!in!downloads!of!
13%!in!2014!alone.18!At!the!same!time,!the!music!streaming!service!Spotify!reported!
in!November!2014!that!it!had!50!million!users,!40!million!of!them!using!the!free!
version!of!the!service.19!While!Spotify!does!offer!royalties,!many!industry!experts!
argue!that!the!royalties!are!too!little!and!do!not!provide!the!same!level!of!return!as!
traditional!album!sales.!
! Jaron!Lanier!and!Mark!Helprin!also!warn!that!aggregators!such!as!Spotify,!
Pandora,!and!YouTube!in!particular,!have!used!the!ubiquity!of!their!services!to!
leverage!payment!away!from!artists.!YouTube’s!business!model!allows!users!to!
place!advertisements!on!uploaded!content!(provided!the!user!owns!the!copyrights!
to!the!content).!YouTube!collects!45%!of!this!revenue,!with!the!remaining!55%!
going!to!the!content!creator.!When!full!albums!began!showing!up!on!YouTube,!
obviously!not!uploaded!by!artists!or!their!record!labels,!some!worried!that!YouTube!
was!becoming!the!new!Napster!(a!file!sharing!service!popular!in!the!late!1990s!that!
was!mostly!frequently!used!for!free!sharing!of!music).!YouTube!responded!in!2011!
by!implementing!the!Content!ID!System,!which!allowed!content!creators!to!claim!
ownership,!with!an!algorithm!finding!any!instances!of!the!same!content!uploaded!by!
other!users.!The!content!creator!could!choose!to!have!YouTube!delete!these!videos!
or!divert!some!of!the!ad!revenue!to!the!copyright!holder.!Copyright!holders!could!
also!file!a!claim!against!a!specific!video.!In!an!article!for!Forbes!magazine,!Paul!Tassi!
explained!some!of!the!misuse!of!this!system,!as!predatory!users!filed!false!claims!
against!videos.!The!issue!was!that!YouTube!automatically!diverted!the!ad!revenue,!
!
37!
while!the!user!who!uploaded!the!video!in!question!was!left!to!file!a!counter!claim!in!
hopes!of!recouping!the!lost!revenue.!In!the!mean!time,!YouTube!was!still!collecting!
its!45%,!so!there!was!no!incentive!in!resolving!these!conflicts!quickly.20!YouTube!
has!since!implemented!more!stringent!requirements!for!potential!copyright!holders,!
but!the!underlying!problem!remains.!In!November!of!2014,!YouTube!announced!
that!it!would!soon!begin!offering!its!own!streaming!music!service,!with!premium!
subscriptions!costing!$9.99!per!month!(the!same!as!Spotify’s!premium!service).!The!
royalty!agreements!have!not!been!released,!but!one!can!assume!they!will!be!similar!
to!Spotify’s!royalties.!In!the!case!of!big!bands,!the!higher!cost!of!maintaining!and!
recording!the!ensemble!means!that!big!band!leaders!will!have!a!much!more!difficult!
time!making!any!profits!from!the!current!royalty!agreements.!
Exposure!
! While!many!see!the!practices!of!aggregators!as!predatory,!the!argument!in!
favor!of!such!arrangements!is!that!services!with!the!high!visibility!of!YouTube!and!
Spotify!offer!greater!exposure!for!artists!than!traditional!album!sales.!Niche!genres!
stand!to!gain!the!most!from!increased!exposure,!and!as!Jenkins!et!al.!note,!niche!
artists!have!little!to!lose!financially!from!a!change!in!the!current!system,!so!many!
are!willing!to!lose!complete!control!of!their!material!and!accept!the!spreadable!
model!in!order!to!further!the!circulation!of!their!work.21!Big!band!leaders!certainly!
fall!into!this!category,!considering!the!old!system!rarely!allowed!a!leader!to!break!
even!on!an!album.!In!an!article!for!Down(Beat,!Paul!de!Barros!cites!Maria!Schneider’s!
first!album,!Evanescence,!as!an!example,!stating!that!she!invested!$30,000!into!the!
!
38!
recording!of!the!album.!Although!her!label!paid!her!$10,000!and!offered!a!
reasonable!royalty!rate,!she!never!recouped!her!original!investment!despite!selling!
around!20,000!copies.22!Production!costs!are!naturally!higher!for!a!big!band!record,!
so!while!small!groups!may!be!able!to!get!by!on!the!old!system,!a!new!arrangement!
needed!to!be!made!for!big!band!leaders!to!make!any!money!from!their!albums.!
While!free!circulation!would!seem!to!be!a!step!in!the!wrong!direction,!Nancy!
Baym!points!to!a!model!for!niche!genres!in!the!independent!Swedish!music!scene.!
The!idea!is!that!smaller!bands!with!small!budgets!are!unlikely!to!be!promoted!by!
any!mainstream!media!sources,!and!therefore!are!unlikely!to!be!heard!by!many!
people.!By!allowing!people!to!access!the!music!for!free!and!giving!them!an!
opportunity!to!financially!reward!the!artists!in!some!way,!bands!are!able!to!reach!a!
much!larger!audience!than!they!would!otherwise.!Even!if!most!of!these!new!
listeners!do!not!pay!any!money!to!listen!to!the!music,!the!end!result!is!that!the!
artists!still!end!up!making!more!money.!According!to!Baym,!for!many!of!the!smaller!
Swedish!labels,!embracing!spreadability!has!dramatically!increased!CD!and!mp3!
sales,!with!between!half!and!twoithirds!of!all!sales!coming!from!places!outside!of!
Sweden,!places!that!would!not!have!had!access!to!this!music!had!the!labels!used!the!
traditional!methods!of!publicity.!While!the!artists!lose!some!control!in!how!their!
music!is!spread,!that!loss!of!control!allows!it!to!be!spread!to!audiences!they!might!
not!have!found!otherwise.23!A!similar!approach!may!be!effective!in!the!big!band!
genre,!as!many!people!who!might!not!buy!a!big!band!CD!would!at!least!give!the!
music!a!listen!if!there!were!no!cost!involved.!If!a!portion!of!these!people!then!
purchased!an!album!or!contributed!to!the!band!in!some!other!way,!the!overall!
!
39!
revenue!might!be!more!than!the!traditional!system!would!bring!in.!The!one!big!
problem!remaining!is!once!again!the!exorbitant!costs!of!recording!such!a!large!
ensemble.!
SelfiPublishing!and!Voluntary!Payments!
! Another!option!for!established!musicians!is!starting!a!record!label.!Selfi
publishing!ensures!that!the!artist!collects!an!appropriate!amount!of!royalties,!as!the!
apparatus!of!production!is!tied!directly!to!them.!One!artist!to!take!advantage!of!this!
option!is!Dave!Holland.!Holland!stated!that!his!“30!years!with!ECM!Records!have!
been!great,!and!they’ve!been!very!supportive!to!me!over!that!time,!but!it’s!time!to!do!
something!for!me!and!my!family.”24!Although!Holland!is!indirect!(likely!to!maintain!
good!relations!with!his!former!label,!from!whom!he!still!earns!royalties),!it!is!
implied!that!he!stands!to!make!more!in!returns!on!his!own!label.!This!also!gives!him!
complete!control!of!his!copyrights.!
! While!this!chapter!has!focused!primarily!on!recordings,!another!source!of!
revenue!that!benefits!from!selfipublishing!is!the!selling!of!scores!and!parts.!With!the!
rise!of!sophisticated!notation!software,!composers!no!longer!need!to!rely!on!
traditional!publishers!to!sell!scores.!Many!big!band!composers!offer!scores!and!
parts!for!sale!as!pdf!files,!and!with!little!production!costs!involved,!they!are!able!to!
do!so!at!reduced!prices!while!still!collecting!more!revenue!per!sale.!Alan!Ferber!and!
Darcy!James!Argue!even!offer!pdf!downloads!of!their!scores!for!free,!as!well!as!
accompanying!mp3!files.!Many!local!big!bands!and!universities!run!on!limited!
budgets,!so!new!music!must!be!chosen!carefully.!Being!able!to!see!the!scores!for!free!
!
40!
allows!local!bandleaders!to!assess!the!compatibility!of!the!given!chart!with!the!
players!and!resources!they!have!on!hand.!This!allows!them!to!choose!charts!wisely,!
and!they!will!be!more!likely!to!purchase!the!parts!from!new!composers!if!they!can!
be!assured!that!the!money!will!not!be!spent!on!a!chart!that!will!be!unusable.!
! Offering!free!downloads!of!recordings!and!scores!amounts!to!a!type!of!gift!
giving!that!is!becoming!increasingly!popular!among!musicians,!writers,!filmmakers,!
and!other!artists!who!circulate!material!online.!These!gifts,!however,!are!not!
necessarily!free!content,!as!it!is!implied!that!if!a!fan!enjoys!the!content,!they!will!
show!their!appreciation!monetarily.!Two!contrasting!examples!of!this!type!of!gift!
giving!(with!very!different!outcomes)!are!the!preemptive!release!of!Radiohead’s!In(
Rainbows!and!the!free!download!of!Nine!Inch!Nails’!The(Slip.!In!2007,!Radiohead!
announced!that!their!new!album,!In(Rainbows,!would!be!available!for!download!in!
advance!of!the!traditional!release.!Fans!could!pay!whatever!price!they!chose,!from!
£0!to!£99.99.!Despite!the!option!to!pay!nothing,!Thom!Yorke!stated!that!Radiohead!
made!more!money!from!digital!downloads!of!In(Rainbows!than!any!of!their!other!
albums.25!This!is!due!to!a!combination!of!fans!choosing!to!pay!for!the!album!and!not!
having!to!split!the!profits!with!a!record!label!or!distributor.!In!fact,!purchasing!the!
album!directly!from!the!band!may!have!inspired!fans!to!pay!more.!What’s!more,!the!
popularity!of!this!model!created!market!expansion,!leading!to!higher!digital!sales!of!
the!album!after!the!official!release.!By!contrast,!Nine!Inch!Nails!allowed!fans!to!
download!the!2008!album,!The(Slip,!for!free,!with!no!option!of!payment.!The!free!
download!remained!available!after!the!traditional!release,!and!sales!of!the!album!
were!significantly!lower!than!previous!releases.!In!their!study!of!these!two!
!
41!
examples,!Marc!Bourreau,!Pinar!Dogan,!and!Sounman!Hong!suggest!that!the!lagging!
sales!of!The(Slip!were!not!due!to!fans’!lack!of!desire!to!pay.!Instead,!fans!who!would!
have!paid!downloaded!the!album!for!free!(having!no!option!to!pay),!and!once!the!
traditional!release!occurred,!had!no!reason!to!download!or!purchase!the!album!
again.!By!not!allowing!for!reciprocity,!Nine!Inch!Nails!made!it!more!difficult!for!fans!
to!show!monetary!appreciation.!It!should!also!be!noted!that!the!Radiohead!release!
received!far!more!media!attention!than!the!Nine!Inch!Nails!release,!so!there!may!
also!be!other!factors!that!contributed!to!the!difference!in!outcomes.26!
! In!another!study!of!the!pick!your!own!price!model!that!is!perhaps!more!
relevant!to!big!band!music,!Tobias!Regner!and!Javier!Barria!use!data!gathered!from!
online!music!website,!Magnatune.!The!site!specializes!in!niche!artists,!providing!full!
access!to!albums!before!purchase!and!allowing!users!to!pay!anywhere!from!$5!to!
$18!to!download!an!album,!an!approach!very!similar!to!the!more!popular!website,!
Bandcamp.!Regner!and!Barria!stress!that!utilizing!this!method!for!niche!artists!will!
be!more!successful!than!established!ones,!as!fans!are!more!likely!to!donate!to!artists!
who!are!not!millionaires.27!They!do!mention!that!the!Radiohead!example!
contradicts!this,!but!insist!that!other!factors!account!for!the!discrepancy,!namely!the!
fair!sharing!of!revenue!with!the!artist.!Nonetheless,!they!found!that!the!average!
customer!paid!more!than!the!recommended!amount!($8),!and!they!attribute!this!to!
a!combination!of!engaging!with!the!music!prior!to!payment,!thus!creating!value,!and!
the!ability!of!the!customer!to!show!support!for!a!relatively!unknown!artist.!This!
voluntary!support!contributes!to!what!they!refer!to!as!the!“warm!glow”!effect.!They!
note!that!neoclassical!theory!predicts!that!most!people!would!pay!as!little!as!
!
42!
possible,!but!actual!results!show!that!most!paid!more!not!only!because!paying!the!
artist!increases!the!possibility!of!future!releases,!but!because!it!makes!them!feel!
good!to!contribute!to!something!they!see!as!a!good!cause.!This!feeling!is!the!“warm!
glow”!effect,!and!they!show!it!to!be!a!powerful!motivating!force!in!the!success!of!the!
voluntary!payment!model.28!
The!desire!to!contribute!to!artists!who!will!directly!benefit!from!the!support!
may!be!a!good!model!for!circulating!niche!cultural!goods!such!as!big!band!music.!
Animator!Nina!Paley,!who!posts!her!videos!for!free!on!her!website!and!allows!fans!
to!make!donations!or!buy!DVDs,!refers!to!the!traditional!methods!of!distribution!as!
“coercion!and!extortion.”!She!believes!that!if!her!fans!value!her!works!and!take!
enjoyment!from!it,!they!will!reward!her!by!paying!for!those!works.29!Regner!and!
Barria’s!research!suggests!she!is!correct,!as!do!her!financial!reports!–!she!reported!
making!$119,708!directly!from!fans!between!2009!and!2010,!while!she!made!only!
$12,551!from!theater!and!broadcast!distribution.!Under!the!right!conditions,!the!
spreadable!model!can!work!for!niche!and!relatively!unknown!artists.!
The!ValueiAdded!Model!
! Another!possibility!in!online!circulation!is!the!valueiadded!model,!in!which!
additional!content!is!included!with!the!purchase!of!an!album!or!score.!In!his!first!
book,!You(Are(Not(a(Gadget,!Jaron!Lanier!suggests!one!option!for!valueiadded!
content:!the!songle.!The!idea!is!that!in!order!to!play!a!certain!song,!you!would!need!a!
physical!key!(a!dongle).!The!songle!could!come!in!many!different!forms,!from!
necklaces!to!coffee!mugs,!but!would!create!artificial!scarcity!for!the!music.!Lanier!
!
43!
insists!that!this!could!be!a!green!technology!as!well,!since!all!the!present!ways!used!
to!convince!people!to!pay!for!music!involve!the!manufacture!of!new!hardware,!such!
as!iPods.30!There!are!a!few!problems!with!Lanier’s!idea.!First,!the!infrastructure!
required!for!this!to!work!would!entail!a!standardization!that!would!almost!
necessarily!come!from!one!company.!This!puts!the!control!of!the!content!into!the!
hands!of!an!aggregator,!something!Lanier!opposes!in!this!and!his!other!book,!Who(
Owns(the(Future?!If!a!company!like!Apple!controls!the!market!this!way,!power!is!not!
given!to!the!artist,!which!is!Lanier’s!intent.!Also,!the!hardware!created!for!the!
implementation!of!the!songle!would!be!no!different!than!the!extra!hardware!Lanier!
mentions!in!current!distribution!schemes.!
! In!her!book,!Playing(Along:(Digital(Games,(YouTube,(and(Virtual(Performance,!
Kiri!Miller!suggests!another!valueiadded!possibility:!adding!a!performance!aspect!to!
the!content.!She!suggests!this!specifically!with!reference!to!the!popular!video!game,!
Guitar(Hero.!Miller!proposes!that!new!music!be!sold!as!downloads!to!be!played!in!
the!game.!The!value!added!in!this!case!is!being!able!to!“perform”!the!music,!creating!
an!active!engagement!rather!than!passive!consumption.!Miller!argues!that!this!is!no!
different!than!piano!arrangements!of!large!ensemble!works!in!the!19th!century.!A!
fourihand!arrangement!of!a!Beethoven!quartet!allows!amateur!pianists!to!engage!
the!work!directly,!which!in!theory!leads!to!a!deeper!appreciation!of!the!music.!The!
principle!problem!with!her!idea!is!that!music!that!does!not!include!guitar!might!
provide!for!an!odd!experience!in!this!format.!Nonetheless,!utilizing!a!more!abstract!
form!of!rhythm!game!might!be!a!means!to!approach!the!valueiadded!model!in!this!
way.31!
!
44!
! Maria!Schneider,!in!her!partnership!with!ArtistShare,!has!perhaps!pioneered!
the!best!option!in!the!valueiadded!model!for!contemporary!big!bands.!In!an!
interview!with!Down(Beat!magazine!in!2004,!Schneider!voiced!her!dissatisfaction!
with!the!traditional!recording!industry.!Schneider!stated!that!everyone!in!the!music!
industry!profits!before!the!artist,!and!she!began!to!understand!over!time!that!she!
was!essentially!giving!her!music!away.!The!real!benefit!of!having!a!record!deal!is!
recognition,!Schneider!claims,!and!without!the!accompanying!financial!reward,!that!
is!simply!not!enough!compensation!for!the!people!creating!the!content.32!As!stated!
previously,!Schneider!never!made!the!money!back!from!her!first!album,!which!was!
distributed!in!the!traditional!way.!Schneider!partnered!with!ArtistShare!in!2004,!
which!not!only!offers!music!for!download!and!on!CD,!as!well!as!scores!(both!printed!
and!pdf),!but!also!includes!additional!content!with!every!purchase.!This!content!
ranges!from!pdfs!of!sketches!to!interviews!to!Maria’s!analysis!of!her!own!work.!As!
Schneider!asked,!“What’s!the!one!thing!that!can’t!be!duplicated?...!It’s!not!the!
recording,!but!the!artists!themselves.”33!By!allowing!unprecedented!access!to!
Schneider!and!the!process!that!goes!into!her!compositions!and!recordings,!
ArtistShare!offers!a!valueiadded!product!that!offers!deeper!engagement!with!her!
music.!As!De!Barros!stated:!
“You!don’t!just!see!albums!for!sale,!you!see!Schneider!sitting!at!the!piano,!
demonstrating!how!the!flamenco!chords!develop!in!her!new!piece,!‘Bulería,!
Soleá!Y!Rumba,’!Schneider!talking!with!Ed!Baker!about!composing,!
Schneider’s!musicians!talking!about!playing!in!the!band,!even!video!of!
Schneider!skydiving.!For!$10.95,!you!can!download!Concert!in!the!Garden!as!
MP3!files!and!print!out!the!liner!notes.!For!$16.95,!plus!shipping,!you!can!
order!the!CD.!An!assortment!of!packages,!with!names!like!‘Composer!
Participant’!and!‘Friend!Participant’!offer!various!combinations!of!
recordings,!scores,!parts!and!an!impressive!catalog!of!streamed!material.!You!
can!buy!all!her!old!CDs,!too,!since!she!bought!back!the!masters!from!enja.”34!
!
45!
The!ArtistShare!approach!is!much!more!convenient!than!either!Lanier!or!
Miller’s!suggestions!and!does!not!necessitate!new!systems!or!physical!devices.!In!
fact,!the!lack!of!physical!devices!is!one!of!its!strong!points.!The!ArtistShare!model!
also!does!not!rely!on!creating!artificial!scarcity,!instead!relying!on!supplementary!
content.!This!is!ultimately!a!better!solution,!as!fans!are!more!likely!to!appreciate!
added!content!that!deepens!engagement!over!scarcity.!The!royalty!agreement,!in!
which!the!artist!gets!half!of!all!revenue,!is!also!a!much!better!arrangement!than!the!
previous!agreements!in!the!record!industry,!and!far!superior!to!the!royalties!offered!
by!aggregators.!Brian!Camelio,!creator!of!ArtistShare,!also!notes!that!it!is!easier!to!
reach!fans!of!a!niche!genre!like!big!band!when!the!artist!can!communicate!directly!
with!them.!He!explains!that!if!an!advertisement!goes!out!to!10,000!people!and!
reaches!2!percent!of!them,!200!CDs!are!sold.!When!the!next!album!is!released,!there!
is!no!better!way!of!advertising!it!because!it!is!impossible!to!know!who!those!200!
people!are!who!responded!to!the!last!album.!But!with!direct!marketing,!the!200!
people!who!bought!the!last!album!will!receive!an!email!about!the!new!one,!making!it!
easier!and!cheaper!to!target!advertising.35!Customers!who!purchase!Schneider’s!
recordings!and!scores!receive!regular!emails!from!Schneider!herself!about!
upcoming!projects,!concerts,!lectures,!etc.!This!approach!is!somewhat!analogous!to!
the!blogging!and!Tweeting!of!Darcy!James!Argue,!and!has!proven!incredibly!
successful.!
In!addition!to!purchasing!recordings!and!scores,!fans!can!support!Schneider’s!
future!projects.!Howard!Mandel!describes!this!support!at!the!recording!sessions!for!
Schneider’s!2007!album,!Sky(Blue,!describing!the!executive!producer!as!an!older!
!
46!
man!who!prefers!to!remain!anonymous.!He!came!to!the!recording!project!through!
ArtistShare,!and!donated!$18,000!to!the!budget!simply!because!he!respected!
Schneider’s!work!and!wanted!to!help!facilitate!the!realization!of!her!ideas.36!So!not!
only!is!Schneider!able!to!profit!from!her!album!sales!while!communicating!more!
effectively!with!her!audience,!but!she!is!also!able!to!attract!funding!for!future!
projects,!a!key!advantage!over!the!voluntary!payment!model.!
! Los!Angeles!big!band!leader,!Gordon!Goodwin,!illustrates!another!approach!
to!the!valueiadded!model.!Goodwin’s!2008!album,!Act(Your(Age,!was!released!as!a!
traditional!CD!with!a!supplemental!DVD.!The!DVD!included!5.1!mixes!of!all!the!
tracks!on!the!album!with!higher!sample!rates,!the!intention!being!to!give!the!listener!
the!perception!of!sitting!in!the!middle!of!the!band.!Also!included!on!the!DVD!were!
live!concert!footage,!band!member!biographies,!solo!transcriptions,!an!interview!
with!Goodwin!and!producers!Dan!Savant!and!Lee!Ritenour,!and!commentaries!on!
each!track.!Additionally,!the!DVD!allowed!fans!to!adjust!the!mix!of!each!track,!
emphasizing!certain!sections!while!turning!down!the!main!mix.!For!big!band!fans,!
this!ability!to!remix!the!tracks!in!order!to!hear!sections!more!clearly!encourages!a!
more!in!depth!appreciation!of!the!performances.!Goodwin!had!previously!created!a!
contest!called!the!“Big!Phat!Jam,”!in!which!up!and!coming!jazz!players!could!record!
themselves!playing!with!the!Big!Phat!Band!recordings!and!post!them!to!Goodwin’s!
website.!In!each!round,!visitors!to!the!website!could!vote!on!their!favorite!in!the!five!
available!categories!(brass,!saxophone,!piano,!bass,!and!vocal),!and!the!winners!
would!progress!to!the!next!round.!Members!of!the!band!critiqued!the!final!round.!
The!winners!are!featured!on!the!DVD,!with!biographies!and!their!final!recordings.!
!
47!
This!promotion!of!up!and!coming!jazz!performers!helped!build!the!community!
around!the!band!and!developed!a!sense!of!goodwill!toward!Goodwin!as!he!helped!to!
elevate!young!jazz!artists.!In!terms!of!album!sales,!it!is!difficult!to!determine!what!
effect,!if!any,!the!supplemental!DVD!had!on!album!sales.!Act(Your(Age!peaked!at!
number!15!on!the!Billboard!jazz!charts.!This!is!higher!than!the!previous!album,!The(
Phat(Pack,!which!peaked!at!number!20,!but!lower!than!the!subsequent!album,!That’s(
How(We(Roll,!peaking!at!number!6.!That’s(How(We(Roll!was!released!without!any!
supplemental!content,!implying!that!the!band’s!popularity!has!been!steadily!rising!
regardless!of!the!supplemental!materials!included.!
! Goodwin!had!previously!released!the!band’s!first!album,!Swinging(for(the(
Fences,!as!a!DVD!with!5.1!audio,!but!chose!to!release!it!separately!from!the!CD.!This!
DVD!contained!many!of!the!same!features!as!the!bonus!DVD!for!Act(Your(Age,!but!
many!fans!were!disappointed.!Some!felt!that!the!$25!price!point!was!too!high!for!a!
DVD!that!contained!little!video!(a!slide!show!played!during!the!5.1!tracks),!and!
although!the!increased!fidelity!of!DVD!audio!(with!a!96!kHz!sample!rate!versus!44.1!
kHz!for!a!standard!CD)!may!have!been!enticing!to!audiophiles,!the!majority!of!
people!lack!the!proper!equipment!to!take!advantage!of!the!superior!sound!quality.!
DVD!audio,!along!with!its!cousin,!the!SACD,!never!established!strong!sales,!with!the!
trend!toward!more!portable!(albeit!lower!quality)!formats!clearly!gaining!control!of!
the!market.!While!the!inclusion!of!the!DVD!with!Act(Your(Age!garnered!a!more!
positive!reaction,!the!ubiquity!of!downloadable!and!streaming!content!indicates!that!
this!approach!to!the!valueiadded!model!is!not!sustainable.!
!
48!
! New!technologies!of!dissemination!not!only!allow!for!wider!circulation!of!
media!texts,!but!also!affect!the!texts!themselves.!Radio!offered!early!big!bands!
widespread!exposure!for!the!first!time!and!helped!generate!the!interest!in!the!
ensemble!that!led!to!the!peak!of!its!popularity.!However,!the!broadcast!model!also!
decreased!the!number!of!regional!variations!and!styles!and!only!allowed!a!select!
few!bands!the!popularity!and!economic!rewards!to!continue!to!be!successful.!By!
contrast,!the!spreadable!model!encourages!unique!approaches!and!regional!
differentiation.!Additionally,!the!ability!to!communicate!directly!with!fans!and!
circulate!recordings!and!scores!digitally!allows!big!band!leaders!to!forego!
traditional!record!labels!and!publishers,!keeping!more!revenue!per!purchase!than!
was!previously!possible.!With!the!rise!of!free!content,!bandleaders!must!continue!to!
build!rapport!with!their!audiences!and!experiment!with!new!systems!of!circulation.!
It!is!evident!from!the!success!of!properly!implemented!voluntary!payment!and!
valueiadded!models!that!fan!communities!have!a!desire!to!support!these!niche!
artists,!and!big!band!leaders!would!be!well!served!to!continue!engaging!these!
communities!and!utilizing!innovative!systems!of!circulation!for!fans!to!show!
reciprocity.!
!
49!
CHAPTER(3:(BIG(BANDS(IN(THE(UNIVERSITY!
! As!the!popularity!of!big!bands!was!in!decline!in!the!late!1940s!and!1950s,!
jazz!education!slowly!became!a!part!of!university!music!departments.!Early!jazz!
programs!were!small!and!generally!did!not!award!degrees,!with!the!first!
undergraduate!degree!in!jazz!being!offered!in!1947!at!the!North!Texas!State!
Teachers!College!(which!became!the!University!of!North!Texas).!Most!of!the!early!
jazz!programs!focused!on!small!group!playing!and!improvisation,!and!big!bands!did!
not!become!a!regular!feature!of!jazz!departments!until!the!late!1950s,!particularly!at!
the!Berklee!School!of!Music,!Westlake!College!of!Music!(until!its!closing!in!1961),!
Los!Angeles!City!College,!California!Polytechnic!State!University,!and!the!
aforementioned!University!of!North!Texas!(called!North!Texas!State!University!
during!this!period).!Departments!began!to!incorporate!big!bands!as!a!lab!ensemble!
for!learning!various!jazz!styles,!with!older!students!in!the!ensemble!passing!on!
knowledge!of!phrasing!and!articulation!to!younger!students.!
The!relationship!with!the!university!system!was!well!established!by!the!
1970s,!with!ensembles!in!almost!all!jazz!departments.!Professional!big!bands!also!
added!universities!to!their!performance!routes,!often!giving!workshops!for!the!local!
students.!In!an!article!on!the!workshops!of!Woody!Herman,!Jim!Szantor!described!
the!congenial!atmosphere!between!the!players!and!students,!arguing!that!as!
exciting!as!the!concerts!were,!music!is!learned!through!experience,!and!that!
experience!is!elevated!by!having!professionals!on!hand!who!can!relate!to!the!
students’!struggles.1!This!tradition!continues,!with!major!jazz!performers!and!
!
50!
composers!visiting!universities!regularly!to!work!with!the!students!and!have!their!
works!performed.!Alex!Stewart!notes!that!there!is!a!cultural!benefit!to!these!
workshops,!keeping!jazz!current!and!allowing!students!to!work!directly!with!master!
musicians,!rather!than!relying!on!recordings!or!books.2!This!is!an!important!step!in!
creating!the!notion!of!big!band!as!a!vibrant,!living!tradition.!
! The!leader!who!utilized!this!relationship!to!the!fullest!and!fostered!an!entire!
generation!of!big!band!players!was!Stan!Kenton.!Kenton!began!playing!universities!
in!the!late!1960s!when!it!was!hard!to!get!enough!bookings!to!keep!the!band!on!the!
road.!As!discussed!in!the!previous!chapter,!he!created!his!own!record!label!and!
mailing!list!to!keep!fans!apprised!of!the!latest!happenings!within!the!Kenton!band.!
Keeping!students!–!his!largest!audience!–!involved!with!the!workings!of!the!band!
during!the!interim!between!school!visits!is!one!of!the!most!important!factors!in!
Kenton’s!success.!The!most!successful!modern!bands!have!continued!to!use!this!
model,!utilizing!social!media!to!keep!fans!apprised!of!new!releases!and!
performances,!and!maintaining!a!close!relationship!with!many!universities!in!order!
to!expose!the!next!generation!of!jazz!musicians!to!their!music.!
!
!
Apprenticeship(
! Jazz!is!still!very!much!an!oral!culture,!and!even!interpreting!the!written!
music!is!something!that!can!only!be!learned!through!apprenticeship.!The!big!band!
provides!the!ideal!format!for!young!players!to!play!alongside!more!experienced!
practitioners!of!their!instrument!and!absorb!stylistic!intricacies.!Gary!Giddins!
remarks!that!there!are!very!few!famous!jazz!musicians!that!did!not!have!big!band!
!
51!
experience,!and!mentions!Charlie!Parker,!Dizzy!Gillespie,!and!John!Coltrane!as!
examples!of!jazz!innovators!who!started!in!big!bands.3!When!I!spoke!to!Ralph!
Lalama,!he!noted!that!young!players!without!big!band!experience!are!often!
technically!proficient,!but!lack!the!ability!to!blend!and!match!style!even!in!small!
group!settings.!He!stated!that!the!big!band!is!the!only!place!for!young!players!to!
learn!these!skills!that!are!important!in!all!types!of!settings!within!jazz.4!
Even!players!who!were!not!initially!interested!in!big!band!have!extolled!the!
virtues!of!the!experience.!A!notable!example!is!Lew!Tabackin,!who!was!not!
interested!in!big!band!at!first,!but!changed!his!stance!toward!the!ensemble.!He!
found!that!playing!in!the!ensemble!caused!him!to!try!harder!to!come!out!of!the!
music!when!soloing,!rather!than!forcing!his!own!style!on!the!music.5!Joe!Lovano,!a!
tenor!saxophonist!who!only!became!popular!in!jazz!circles!after!recording!several!
small!group!albums,!exhibits!the!same!sentiment:!
“When!I!started!to!really!emerge!in!some!of!these!bands!I!had!had!already!a!
kind!of!a!history!playing!in!more!free!music!and!in!the!bebop!school.!!When!I!
started!to!play!in!a!big!band,!I!absorbed!the!music!around!me!that!other!
people!were!playin’!and!started!to!really!feed!off!the!energy!and!the!ideas!
that!other!cats!were!playing.!!It!gave!me!a!lot!of!inspiration!about!how!to!
approach!my!little!solo!moment,!playing!with!a!sense!of!orchestration.!!When!
I!could!come!out!of!an!ensemble!part!and!how!I!could!use!that!as!a!
springboard!into!my!solo!excursions!and!then!knowing!what!was!gonna!
follow,!or!what!background,!that!gave!me!a!conception!about!leading!
somewhere,!developing!solos!within!the!framework!of!the!piece.!!That’s!
always!been!a!strong!foundation!of!my!playing.!!Playing!in!big!bands!helped!
crystallize!a!lot!of!that!stuff.!!And!gave!me!a!conception!of!how!to!play!and!
not!just!deal!with!what!to!play.”6!
!
This!idea!of!“how!to!play”!versus!“what!to!play”!is!a!recurrent!notion!among!big!
band!improvisers.!The!solo!breaks!in!a!modern!big!band!arrangement!sometimes!
occur!between!contrasting!sections!of!a!tune,!and!creating!a!bridge!between!the!two!
!
52!
sections!helps!improvisers!shape!solos!and!develop!directional!improvisation.!In!
tunes!that!do!not!have!contrasting!sections,!it!becomes!even!more!important!for!the!
soloists!to!determine!how!to!take!the!listeners!on!a!journey!away!from!the!tune!
without!violating!its!sonic!world,!and!then!how!to!bring!them!back.!If!background!
figures!are!present,!these!allow!the!soloist!to!interact!with!yet!another!element,!
either!choosing!to!let!the!background!figures!push!the!solo!forward!or!in!some!cases!
offering!a!confrontational!voice!against!the!background!figures.!All!of!these!skills!
learned!in!big!bands!transfer!to!all!other!forms!of!jazz!and!help!players!have!a!more!
sophisticated!dialogue!with!one!another!in!small!groups.!
! Jazz!educators,!many!of!whom!learned!their!craft!in!this!earlier!
apprenticeship!style!outside!of!academia,!have!sought!to!bring!this!style!of!learning!
into!the!university!while!maintaining!academic!standards.!Rich!Shemaria!described!
this!approach!to!me,!in!use!at!New!York!University:!
“I!love!the!master!and!apprentice!approach!to!learning!things!that!the!world!
has!used!for!hundreds!and!hundreds!of!years.!That’s!one!thing!I!like!here!at!
NYU,!is!that,!as!you!know,!we!basically!have!that!kind!of!thing!happening!
here!in!the!jazz!department.!There’s!a!real!close!affinity!between!the!
students!and!the!teachers,!and!they!get!to!play!with!us,!they!get!to!write!
alongside!us.!There!are!one!or!two!other!places!in!the!world!that!I!know!of!
that!have!this!kind!of!thing,!and!that!whole!process!is!time!tested,!and!it!still!
stands!up.”7!
!
When!I!interviewed!Billy!Drewes,!he!echoed!this!sentiment,!although!he!admitted!
that!the!style!of!learning!is!not!exactly!the!same!because!of!the!setting.!Nonetheless,!
he!asserts!that!the!best!way!of!preserving!the!traditions!of!jazz!without!arresting!its!
evolution!is!to!continue!passing!the!music!down!while!being!open!to!all!of!the!new!
ideas!and!approaches!emerging!from!academia.8!
!
53!
! One!of!the!challenges!jazz!educators!face!is!how!to!evaluate!students’!
progress!in!a!way!that!meets!with!the!standards!of!the!university!system.!Dave!
Pietro!commented!to!me!that!learning!music!is!not!something!that!can!be!easily!
graded!or!tested,!and!worries!that!teaching!to!the!test!runs!counter!to!how!we!learn!
anything,!not!just!music.9!Certainly!there!are!elements!of!learning!music!that!can!be!
assessed!(e.g.,!scales,!theory),!but!the!danger!is!that!these!quantifiable!attributes!
become!the!primary!focus,!while!individual!expression!–!perhaps!the!most!
important!aspect!of!jazz!–!becomes!secondary.!This!emphasis!on!easily!assessed!
skills!could!also!create!an!environment!that!does!not!allow!for!as!much!creativity!if!
students!are!directed!to!learn!specific!things!at!specific!times,!rather!than!letting!
each!student!determine!his!or!her!own!path.!
! The!solution!to!this!problem!seems!to!be!a!combination!of!maintaining!a!base!
curriculum!to!satisfy!the!university’s!standards!and!professors!teaching!in!a!noni
scholastic!manner.!Alan!Ferber!described!to!me!his!experience!in!the!jazz!program!
at!the!University!of!California,!Los!Angeles,!as!one!that!taught!him!jazz!through!the!
joy!of!playing!it!rather!than!through!traditional!lecture!courses.!He!specifically!
pointed!to!a!class!taken!with!Billy!Higgins,!in!which!the!class!members!played!
Thelonious!Monk!tunes!every!week!without!much!discussion,!as!one!of!the!reasons!
he!wanted!to!continue!playing!jazz.10!Learning!through!direct!experience!and!
finding!one’s!own!voice!is!perhaps!the!best!method!for!learning!jazz.!In!this!way,!the!
long!used!system!of!apprenticeship!is!maintained!within!the!university!setting!and!
what!is!passed!on!is!not!only!the!quantifiable!knowledge!required!to!play,!but!also!
the!uniquantifiable!feeling.!In!an!email!interview!with!me,!Julian!Tanaka!suggested!
!
54!
that!in!addition!to!the!knowledge!and!feeling!inspired!by!the!music!itself,!important!
life!lessons!are!learned!through!the!apprenticeship!approach,!and!these!lessons!are!
just!as!important!when!making!one’s!own!music!as!technique!and!style!issues.11!
! In!addition!to!teaching!in!a!nonischolastic!manner,!many!jazz!educators!
provide!a!point!of!entry!into!professional!and!semiiprofessional!circles!in!which!a!
student!may!continue!to!learn!in!a!more!direct!manner.!Michael!Breaux!described!to!
me!an!early!experience!in!which!his!teachers!gave!him!access!to!a!local!big!band:!
“‘And!come!to!the!back!door!of!Toby’s!Oak!Grove,!have!your!mom!and!dad!
drop!you!off!at!9:00.!They!can!stay!there,!and!we’ll!bring!you!in!and!let!you!
play!on!the!bandstand.’!So!in!front!of!all!these!drunken!customers,!I!was!
playing!‘Stella!by!Starlight’!on!my!tenor!saxophone,!and!they!went!wild.!That!
was!the!first!time!I!got!a!taste!of!it!–!doing!it!myself!–!and!it!snowballed.”12!
!
This!sort!of!early!direct!experience!with!the!ensemble!and!the!music!is!common!
among!many!professional!jazz!musicians.!In!addition!to!the!experience!provided!by!
educators!themselves,!introductions!into!the!professional!world!can!facilitate!
further!progress.!
! Many!successful!jazz!musicians!also!agree!that!it!is!up!to!each!player!and/or!
composer!to!seek!out!mentorship!and!other!opportunities!outside!the!university.!
Steven!Feifke!encourages!students!to!introduce!themselves!to!experienced!jazz!
musicians!and!educators,!and!notes!that!it!is!not!a!university’s!responsibility!to!
provide!introductions!or!mentorship.13!While!the!university!can!provide!an!
environment!conducive!to!learning!and!making!connections,!the!ultimate!
responsibility!is!on!the!individual.!Nate!Kimball!also!pointed!out!to!me!that!some!
opportunities!to!gain!experience!may!not!be!paid!ones,!such!as!rehearsal!bands.!He!
argues!that!these!gigs!should!not!be!approached!with!only!financial!gain!in!mind,!
!
55!
but!also!as!opportunities!to!grow!as!a!musician!and!make!connections!needed!for!
future!success.14!
University(Big(Bands(as(Music(Laboratories(
! University!big!bands!offer!student!composers!the!opportunity!to!try!out!new!
compositions!on!a!regular!basis.!This!gives!students!a!chance!to!take!risks!one!might!
not!take!on!a!paid!commission,!as!there!are!no!significant!consequences!for!failure.!
Writing!new!music!for!the!ensemble!on!a!regular!basis!ideally!produces!composers!
who!have!found!their!own!style!and!are!confident!and!experienced!by!the!time!they!
graduate.!Darcy!James!Argue!described!to!me!his!experience!at!Boston!
Conservatory,!stating!that!he!had!access!to!a!big!band!every!week!that!did!nothing!
but!read!new!music!written!by!the!composition!students.!Argue!realized!that!having!
that!sort!of!weekly!feedback!from!both!the!band!and!a!worldiclass!teacher!(Bob!
Brookmeyer)!was!a!rare!situation,!and!one!that!he!would!utilize!to!the!fullest.15!
Argue’s!decidedly!unique!style!can!be!at!least!partially!attributed!to!his!access!to!a!
big!band!on!such!a!frequent!basis.!Through!his!successes!and!failures,!he!was!able!to!
develop!a!personal!sound!that!works!for!the!ensemble.!
! In!addition!to!offering!student!composers!a!laboratory!to!test!out!new!ideas,!
university!ensembles!also!keep!players!in!touch!with!the!current!jazz!composers!–!
not!only!their!own!classmates,!but!also!faculty!members!and!visiting!composers.!
Perhaps!the!most!welliknown!university!ensemble!is!the!University!of!North!Texas!
One!O’Clock!Lab!Band.!The!band!was!created!in!1947,!the!year!that!the!University!of!
North!Texas!(then!known!as!North!Texas!State!Teachers!College)!became!the!first!
!
56!
institution!to!offer!a!degree!in!jazz!studies.!After!a!request!for!a!professional!
recording!to!be!broadcast!on!the!radio!in!1967,!the!band!began!recording!albums!on!
a!yearly!basis,!and!became!the!first!student!ensemble!to!be!nominated!for!a!Grammy!
in!1975!for!an!album!consisting!of!music!written!by!future!Pat!Metheny!Group!
member!Lyle!Mays,!who!was!then!a!student.!The!band’s!repertoire!consists!of!
student!and!faculty!compositions,!as!well!as!compositions!from!leading!big!band!
composers,!many!of!whom!have!residencies!with!the!ensemble.!Bringing!
professionals!in!to!work!with!the!students!not!only!helps!them!develop!their!
musicianship,!but!also!helps!to!build!networks!that!the!students!may!use!to!become!
successful!themselves!when!they!finish!their!education.!In!fact,!many!successful!jazz!
musicians!are!alumni!of!the!band.!
! While!the!freedom!to!fail!in!big!band!writing!can!be!a!great!opportunity!for!
young!jazz!composers!learning!their!craft,!there!is!also!a!danger!of!not!getting!the!
proper!feedback!in!order!to!prevent!future!problems.!Julian!Tanaka!elaborates:!
“One!of!the!major!negative!effects!university!has!had!on!big!band!music!is!
that!the!pragmatism!of!the!music!is!lost.!Ellington's!music!has!that!radiance!
and!natural!vibration!because!he!wrote!shit!that!was!playable.!It!seems!that!a!
lot!of!academic!writers!don't!think!about!that!too!much.!It!is!up!to!the!player!
to!make!the!composition!sparkle.!That's!not!to!say!that!hard!music!is!bad.!It's!
just!that!there!aren't!tremendous!consequences!for!writing!bad!music!in!
college.!Back!in!the!day,!you!wrote!a!shitty!chart!and!you!were!fired!or!the!
players!in!your!band!could!find!some!other!band!to!play!in.!Today,!you!get!a!
college!degree!in!jazz!composition.”16!
!
Tanaka’s!point!also!brings!up!another!issue!that!has!arisen!since!big!bands!moved!
into!the!university!system:!the!relationship!between!the!composer!and!the!players!
has!changed!dramatically.!Mirroring!a!similar!shift!in!classical!music!from!more!
than!a!century!earlier,!composers!have!become!increasingly!specific!about!how!they!
!
57!
want!their!compositions!performed.!This!is!not!necessarily!bad,!but!sometimes!
performers!feel!that!they!do!not!have!the!opportunity!to!put!their!own!
interpretation!on!the!music.!Combine!this!with!overly!complex!changes!in!solo!
sections!and!overiwritten!background!figures,!and!the!experience!for!the!performer!
becomes!a!much!less!enjoyable!one.!Bruce!Paulson!noted!during!our!conversation!
that!jazz!composer!Tom!Garvin!solved!this!problem!by!writing!complex!tunes!with!
simplified!solo!sections.!The!simpler!form!during!the!solo!allowed!the!players!to!
express!themselves!more!freely,!and!in!the!end!both!the!voices!of!the!performers!
and!the!composer!were!heard.17!
Jazz(Education(as(a(Business!
! An!increasing!concern!within!jazz!education!is!businessioriented!composers!
who!write!charts!with!specific!criteria!in!mind.!The!ensembles!looking!to!perform!
these!charts!are!more!likely!to!be!at!smaller!colleges!and!some!high!schools,!where!
most!of!the!students!do!not!learn!to!improvise!and!parts!are!sometimes!taught!by!
rote.!Alan!Ferber!expressed!his!thoughts!to!me!on!this!type!of!composition:!
“I!think!where!the!danger!comes!in!is!when!people!write!big!band!music!for!a!
school!and!they!start!putting!grade!levels!on!it,!and!it’s!specifically!for!a!
school.!Then!you’re!getting!into!the!business!side!of!things,!you’re!writing!it!
as!a!business!choice!rather!than!an!artistic!choice,!and!to!me!that’s!reflected!
in!the!music.!If!your!motivation!is!to!write!a!chart!so!you!can!sell!it!and!make!
money,!then!it’s!going!to!sound!like!that!in!a!way.!If!your!motivation!is!just!to!
simply!write!a!great!piece!of!music!that!makes!a!really!honest!artistic!
statement,!then!I!think!the!university’s!role!in!playing!that!kind!of!music!is!a!
valuable!one:!to!help!disperse!good!music.”18!
!
This!is!not!to!say!that!writing!charts!specifically!to!sell!or!on!commission!detracts!
from!their!ability!to!be!personal!artistic!statements!of!high!quality.!Certainly!many!
!
58!
of!the!big!band!writers!of!the!1960s!and!1970s!who!wrote!to!order!for!Count!Basie,!
Buddy!Rich,!or!Doc!Severinsen!did!so!to!make!money.!The!problem!Ferber!refers!to!
is!specific!to!music!written!for!school!bands.!There!are!an!increasing!number!of!jazz!
festivals!at!which!bands!compete!with!one!another!and!are!judged.!A!win!at!one!of!
these!festivals!can!be!important!for!the!school,!as!it!might!draw!more!attention!to!
the!department,!encourage!more!funding,!etc.!Judges!score!sheets!often!include!
specific!criteria!they!are!to!judge,!and!business!oriented!composers!will!write!charts!
that!cater!to!these!criteria.!The!problem!is!not!so!much!what!is!included!in!these!
works!as!what!is!missing.!Often!there!is!no!improvisation!and!the!rhythm!section!
parts!are!completely!written!out,!which!would!never!be!done!in!a!professional!big!
band.!Realizing!a!typical!rhythm!section!chart!takes!years!of!experience!and!many!
mistakes,!but!directors!looking!to!win!festivals!sometimes!trade!the!opportunity!to!
educate!–!which!includes!the!possibility!of!failure!–!for!a!seemingly!more!polished!
result!and!greater!chance!of!winning.!
! Another!problem!related!to!treating!jazz!education!as!a!business!is!the!
existence!of!jazz!educators!with!no!real!world!experience.!The!university!system!has!
become!increasingly!business!oriented!in!the!past!several!decades.!According!to!a!
2014!article!in!Time!magazine,!tuitions!have!risen!1120%!in!absolute!dollars!since!
1978.19!In!modern!academic!culture!where!students!are!sometimes!viewed!more!as!
customers,!attracting!more!of!these!customers!to!a!business!that!will!likely!not!
increase!their!salary!but!certainly!increase!their!debt!is!difficult,!so!university!
rankings!have!become!an!important!tool!in!recruiting!more!students.!Many!
university!ranking!systems!take!into!account!the!number!of!publications!per!year!
!
59!
from!the!faculty,!as!well!as!degrees!held.!For!this!reason,!departments!necessarily!
look!to!hire!professors!with!impressive!academic!pedigrees.!Unfortunately,!some!of!
these!people!do!not!have!the!level!of!real!world!experience!in!jazz!to!match!their!
academic!accomplishments.!Dave!Pietro!told!me!that!while!he!attempts!to!recreate!
the!apprenticeship!environment!for!his!students,!it!is!not!entirely!possible!within!
academia.!He!said!he!is!troubled!by!the!fact!that!at!many!schools,!“the!people!who!
are!teaching!are!people!who!haven’t!had!that!experience,!so!they’re!going!from!
academic!experience!to!academic!experience.”20!When!I!interviewed!Tom!Kubis,!he!
noted!that!many!schools!seem!to!be!“more!about!theorists!than!actual!players.”21!He!
worries!that!younger!players!going!through!the!university!system!may!be!missing!
the!opportunity!to!learn!from!some!of!the!great!players!who!do!not!also!have!the!
proper!pedigree!to!be!hired.!
! There!is!also!a!large!business!in!writing!for!beginner!big!bands,!as!essentially!
the!entirety!of!the!big!band!repertoire!is!too!difficult!for!these!young!players.!Many!
writers!choose!to!create!simplified!arrangements!of!big!band!standards!in!order!to!
give!students!something!they!can!play!that!is!also!exposing!them!to!the!history!of!
the!ensemble.!Some!professional!writers!also!write!multiple!versions!of!the!same!
chart,!as!is!the!case!with!Sammy!Nestico’s!Samantha,!The(Queen(Bee,(Fancy(Pants,(
and!BasieEStraight(Ahead.!Occasionally!professional!writers!are!commissioned!to!
write!a!tune!for!beginner!bands.!In!1990,!the!Penfield!Music!Commission!Project!
commissioned!a!beginner!work!from!Maria!Schneider,!which!resulted!in!Baytrail(
Shuffle.22!There!are!a!few!professional!big!band!writers!with!an!interest!in!education!
who!write!tunes!specifically!for!younger!bands.!One!of!the!most!well!known!writers!
!
60!
to!do!this!is!Bob!Mintzer,!and!given!his!2009!letter!to!the!editor!in!Down(Beat!
magazine!declaring!big!bands!to!be!alive!and!well!and!asking!for!fans’!continued!
support,!it!is!no!surprise!that!Mintzer!invests!time!and!effort!in!the!future!of!the!
ensemble.23!Writing!original!charts!for!a!beginning!band!does!have!an!incredible!set!
of!challenges!that!keep!most!composers!away.!In!our!interview,!Nate!Kimball!
expressed!some!of!the!frustrations!that!accompany!writing!for!young!bands,!stating!
that!it!is!almost!impossible!to!focus!on!the!artistic!side!of!writing!when!writing!
charts!for!grade!1!and!grade!2!middle!school!big!bands.!Kimball!says!he!tries!to!
write!a!simple!catchy!melody!that!is!singable,!and!hopes!for!the!best!beyond!that.24!
Keeping!the!music!simple!enough!to!be!approachable!for!a!beginner!big!band!while!
maintaining!some!musical!interest!is!indeed!difficult,!but!thanks!to!the!efforts!of!
Kimball,!Mintzer,!and!others,!many!educators!are!pleased!to!see!an!increasing!
number!of!quality!charts!available!for!developing!musicians.!
In!addition!to!breeding!new!jazz!musicians!and!jazz!lovers,!there!are!plenty!
of!reasons!to!continue!to!support!these!young!bands.!Dave!Pietro!pointed!out!to!me!
the!importance!of!keeping!these!ensembles!(and!music!in!general)!in!schools:!
“[I]n!any!large!ensemble!it's!crucial!to!listen!to!one!another!and!to!interact.!
This!is!why!I!think!it’s!critical!to!keep!music!in!schools.!It’s!science.!It’s!social!
science.!!It’s!not!about!entertainment.!The!argument!in!a!lot!of!schools…!is!
that!music!is!entertainment,!and!that’s!how!it’s!treated!by!the!
administrations.!But!to!me,!music!is!social!science,!and!especially!in!the!
school!systems,!because!music!(and!team!sports!falls!into!this!category)!
teaches!you!many!things.!In!a!large!ensemble,!in!any!one!piece!of!music,!your!
part!may!require!you!to!take!the!lead,!to!support!someone!else,!to!blend!with!
someone!else,!to!solo,!and!it’s!constantly!moving.!You!have!to!be!listening!all!
the!time!and!know!what!your!role!is!at!that!moment.”25!
!
Pietro!implies!that!being!involved!in!musical!ensembles!such!as!big!bands!increases!
interpersonal!skills!and!perhaps!might!create!better!citizens.!For!these!additional!
!
61!
reasons,!it’s!important!that!composers!like!Bob!Mintzer!and!Nate!Kimball!continue!
to!write!quality!music!to!keep!young!players!engaged.!
Homogenization!
! In!the!decades!since!jazz!moved!into!the!university!system,!the!
standardization!of!a!jazz!curriculum!has!led!to!an!unfortunate!subconscious!
attitude:!that!graduates!should!be!fully!developed!professionals.!The!idea!is!that!if!
students!go!through!the!entire!curriculum!of!a!jazz!department!–!which!is!designed!
to!be!exhaustive!–!they!should!have!absorbed!all!of!this!material!and!found!their!
own!voice.!The!problem!with!this!subconscious!attitude!is!that!it!takes!many!years!
to!truly!absorb!the!music!in!the!jazz!tradition!(or!any!tradition!for!that!matter).!In!
fact,!it!would!be!difficult!to!absorb!the!music!of!the!big!band!tradition!alone,!much!
less!the!entirety!of!jazz.!Finding!one’s!own!voice!from!there!also!takes!many!years!of!
experience!and!a!certain!amount!of!failure!from!trying!new!ideas!and!taking!new!
risks.!Darcy!James!Argue!pointed!out!to!me!the!severity!of!this!problem,!lamenting!
that!musicians!are!expected!to!arrive!on!the!scene!fully!formed!with!their!musical!
identity!firmly!in!place.26!Graduates!are!expected!to!have!the!experience!needed!to!
be!comfortable!and!confident!in!their!own!identity!in!order!to!play!gigs,!but!in!
reality!need!to!play!more!gigs!to!find!their!identity.!
There!is!also!a!danger!in!sounding!too!different!in!the!world!of!mainstream!
jazz!gigs,!which!has!led!to!what!some!view!as!a!certain!amount!of!homogenization!
among!players.!The!attempts!by!jazz!departments!to!make!the!curriculum!thorough!
might!also!be!partially!to!blame,!and!many!believe!that!the!more!haphazard!and!less!
!
62!
exhaustive!method!of!learning!jazz!in!the!past!resulted!in!more!stylistic!variation!
among!players.!Bruce!Paulson!elaborated!on!this!problem!in!our!telephone!
conversation:!
“[I]n!the!past!I!think!players!were!much!more!individual!because!there!was!
no!pedagogy,!no!curriculum.!I!think!the!one!thing!that!has!happened!with!the!
university!bands!is!that!even!though!many!players!are!probably!more!adroit!
–!they’re!technically!better!and!have!more!musical!knowledge!–!they!tend!to!
sound!the!same!in!certain!senses.!So!I!think!that!old!system!where!we!were!
all!self!taught!–!I!didn’t!have!any!jazz!education!per!se,!I!learned!it!all!sitting!
in!bands!with!other!guys!–!I!think!it!created!a!more!personal!approach,!and!I!
think!one!of!the!biggest!compliments!that!I!ever!got!was!that!a!guy!said!he!
heard!a!recording!on!the!radio!and!he!knew!it!was!me.!Somebody!could!
identify!your!style.”27!
!
In!addition!to!university!curriculum!being!comprehensive,!technology!has!given!
musicians!access!to!so!much!more!music!than!was!previously!available.!It!is!difficult!
to!digest!this!volume!of!music,!and!it!is!entirely!possible!that!while!today’s!
musicians!have!a!much!broader!range!of!influences,!the!depth!of!any!one!of!these!
influences!might!not!match!previous!generations,!who!spent!more!time!listening!to!
less!music.!Dave!Pietro!pointed!out!that!there!was!a!real!relationship!with!the!music!
when!people!only!had!a!few!recordings!to!listen!to,!and!listening!to!these!recordings!
repeatedly!created!a!depth!of!knowledge!that!is!difficult!to!attain.28!When!I!spoke!to!
Billy!Drewes,!he!took!a!slightly!different!position!than!that!of!Pietro!or!Paulson,!
stating!that!there!was!an!overwhelming!amount!of!music!available!even!decades!
ago,!and!musicians!like!Kenny!Dorham,!Charlie!Parker,!and!John!Coltrane!were!so!
accomplished!that!naturally!players!wanted!to!emulate!them.29!The!desire!to!sound!
like!one!of!the!great!players!is!present!within!every!generation,!and!with!so!much!
music!available!now!there!is!even!more!to!emulate,!but!the!challenge!of!finding!
!
63!
one’s!own!voice!is!essentially!the!same.!It’s!a!challenge!that!not!every!musician!is!
able!to!face!successfully,!but!this!has!always!been!the!case.!
Changing(Sounds(and(Changing(Faces!
! Since!jazz!entered!academia,!the!music!written!for!big!bands!has!seen!a!
dramatic!shift!in!style.!Most!big!band!composers!since!the!1970s!have!studied!jazz!
in!the!university!setting,!which!has!had!a!significant!impact!on!both!the!ensemble!
and!the!music!written!for!it.!Stylistically,!perhaps!the!most!prominent!development!
in!big!band!music!has!been!the!dramatic!increase!in!harmonic!sophistication.!This!is!
certainly!due!to!the!codification!of!jazz!harmony!that!naturally!came!about!as!jazz!
educators!sought!to!establish!a!curriculum.!The!detailed!study!of!established!big!
band!charts,!along!with!solo!transcriptions,!not!only!clarified!the!theoretical!
underpinnings!of!earlier!jazz!musicians,!but!also!led!to!the!discovery!of!new!
possibilities!and!an!overall!depth!of!knowledge!that!previous!jazz!musicians!could!
not!achieve.!In!our!interview,!Ralph!Lalama!noted,!however,!that!as!this!increasingly!
sophisticated!harmony!has!been!incorporated!into!big!band!composition,!the!
ensemble!has!lost!its!swing.!He!states:!
“But!it’s!swinging![the!music!of!Thad!Jones]!–!that’s!another!thing!that’s!
missing!from!a!lot!of!newer!stuff.!That’s!just!my!opinion,!of!course.!I’m!
digging!some!of!the!harmony!–!it’s!getting!more!modern,!and!there!are!more!
layers!in!the!sound!–!but!it’s!more!about!orchestration!rather!than!swing.”30!
!
In!this!case,!the!swing!that!Lalama!refers!to!is!not!only!the!use!of!trochaic!eighth!
notes,!but!also!the!attitude!of!the!music.!There!is!certainly!evidence!for!this!in!the!
music,!but!it!may!be!a!necessary!trade!off!–!denser!harmony!requires!purer!timbres!
and!softer!dynamics.!When!played!aggressively,!the!harmonies!are!often!lost!to!the!
!
64!
ear.!The!result!is!that!during!these!moments!of!dense!harmony,!composers!often!ask!
the!band!to!play!softly!and!to!blend!their!timbres!(which!is!not!always!the!standard!
case!in!a!big!band!–!it!is!often!an!accumulation!of!individual!timbres!more!so!than!an!
evenly!blended!ensemble,!although!not!all!bands!subscribe!to!this!notion).!A!brief!
example!of!this!principle!can!be!seen!in!Bob!Brookmeyer’s!“Hello!and!Goodbye.”!At!
rehearsal!C,!Brookmeyer!employs!cluster!voicings,!and!he!uses!several!techniques!to!
keep!the!harmonies!intelligible!(see!fig.(1).!
!
fig.(1:(Hello(and(Goodbye(excerpts(
! In!the!first!two!measures,!although!the!entire!13ipiece!horn!section!is!voiced!
within!a!12th!in!each!chord!(from!F3!to!C5!in!the!first!chord),!the!voicings!within!
each!section!(saxophones,!trumpets,!trombones)!are!not!overly!dissonant.!In!this!
way,!the!voice!leading!within!each!section!can!be!parsed!by!the!ear!and!the!resulting!
clusters!maintain!coherence.!In!the!following!four!measures,!the!chords!further!
!
65!
collapse!to!the!point!of!maximum!dissonance,!with!the!horns!playing!8!notes!in!the!
space!of!a!minor!7th.!This!is!accompanied!by!a!decrescendo,!which!keeps!the!
extreme!dissonance!from!becoming!overwhelming.!The!voicings!slowly!open!back!
up!over!the!next!6!measures,!until!they!return!to!standard!voicings!in!m.!61,!
accompanied!by!an!increase!in!dynamic!to!forte.!This!shift!back!to!standard!voicings!
is!then!confirmed!stylistically!with!a!rhythmically!characteristic!big!band!phrase!to!
end!the!section!starting!on!the!upbeat!of!3!in!m.!64!and!continuing!until!the!
downbeat!of!the!next!section!at!the!Coda!sign!in!m.!71.!This!type!of!aggressive!
musical!gesture!would!not!work!with!the!previously!used!cluster!voicings,!as!the!
dissonance!would!undermine!the!strength!and!vitality!of!the!line.!Brookmeyer!also!
presents!the!melody!at!the!beginning!of!the!tune!in!simple!octaves,!then!gradually!
adds!harmony!during!the!B!section.!When!the!A’!section!occurs!at!rehearsal!C,!the!
cluster!voicings!sound!like!a!natural!evolution!of!the!tune,!and!the!familiar!melodic!
patterns!and!extra!space!between!the!top!two!voices!keep!the!lines!intelligible.!!
Brookmeyer’s!many!students!at!the!Boston!Conservatory,!several!of!whom!are!
current!leading!big!band!composers,!have!continued!to!utilize!and!develop!this!sort!
of!harmonic!sophistication,!but!some!would!argue!that!the!power!and!attitude!of!
more!traditional!big!band!lines!and!voicings!has!been!diminished!in!the!process.!
! Although!there!may!be!less!swing!incorporated!in!the!music!of!contemporary!
big!bands,!one!could!argue!that!the!styles!of!individual!composers!have!become!
more!personal!and!varied!than!in!the!decades!prior.!While!one!might!
understandably!not!be!able!to!tell!the!difference!between!a!Sammy!Nestico!and!Neal!
Hefti!tune,!even!a!casual!listener!would!hear!a!drastic!difference!between!the!music!
!
66!
of!Maria!Schneider!and!that!of!Darcy!James!Argue!(two!big!band!composers!who!
both!studied!with!Bob!Brookmeyer).!The!outside!influences!incorporated!in!the!
music!are!also!increasingly!diverse,!perhaps!as!diverse!as!the!elements!that!
originally!formed!jazz.!One!finds!guitar!techniques!from!rock!and!heavy!metal,!
electronic!instruments!and!sampling,!pop!style!vocals,!pulsing!postiminimalist!
rhythms,!and!even!arrangements!of!classical!music!in!modern!big!band!
compositions.!This!wideiranging!field!of!influences!may!partly!be!due!to!the!
comprehensive!nature!of!music!education,!encouraging!exploration!of!many!
different!forms!and!styles!of!music.!So!while!students!may!or!may!not!absorb!
influences!with!the!depth!of!their!predecessors,!who!had!a!more!limited!access!to!
different!kinds!of!music,!they!certainly!are!making!use!of!a!wider!variety!of!
influences,!often!in!a!cavalier!fashion!that!results!in!a!very!personal!style.!
! The!change!in!style!reflects!another!significant!shift!in!the!ensemble!since!it!
moved!into!the!university!system.!Nate!Kimball!made!a!point!to!me!about!the!
stylistic!change!in!music!written!for!the!ensemble,!commenting!that!music!changes!
as!the!people!who!create!it!change,!and!that!placing!blame!on!universities!for!
changing!styles!is!an!oversimplification.31!While!in!this!case!Kimball!is!speaking!
more!to!the!responsibility!on!each!student!to!put!in!the!work!to!develop!his!or!her!
own!voice,!it!brings!to!mind!the!change!in!the!demographics!of!big!band!players,!as!
well!as!jazz!musicians!in!general.!Perhaps!the!most!notable!effect!is!the!influx!of!
white!musicians!to!jazz.!While!there!have!always!been!white!jazz!musicians,!it!has!
traditionally!been!a!genre!predominately!populated!by!black!musicians.!The!legacy!
of!institutional!racism!in!the!United!States!has!created!a!system!in!which!many!black!
!
67!
musicians!who!lack!the!same!financial!and!educational!opportunities!as!their!white!
counterparts!are!often!excluded!from!the!genre!simply!because!they!are!unable!to!
pursue!higher!education.!In!an!article!from!2010!titled!“Addressing!Institutional!
Structural!Barriers!to!Student!Achievement,”!Eustace!Thompson!attributes!the!
achievement!gap!between!white!students!and!students!of!color!to!three!forms!of!
racism:!personal,!structural,!and!institutional.!Personal!racism!is!defined!as!the!
underlying!attitudes!of!teachers!that!white!students!will!perform!better!than!noni
white!students.!Structural!and!institutional!racism!are!related!issues.!Although!
segregating!schools!is!no!longer!a!legal!practice,!the!segregation!of!black!and!white!
communities!often!leads!to!schools!that!are!highly!segregated!and!varying!in!quality.!
This!structural!racism!is!compounded!by!institutional!racism,!in!which!policies!
created!by!government!and!school!systems!often!favor!white!students.!The!
combination!of!these!three!forms!of!racism!makes!it!increasingly!difficult!for!
students!of!color!to!achieve!academic!success,!leaving!many!without!the!option!to!
attend!college.32!Julian!Tanaka!commented!on!this!situation!in!an!email!to!me:!
“The!university!system!makes!jazz!far!less!accessible!as!a!career!choice!to!
certain!people.!It!is!near!impossible!to!make!a!living!just!playing!jazz!these!
days.!Attending!a!university!as!a!jazz!major!not!only!provides!students!with!a!
possibility!of!graduating!with!a!degree,!thus!increasing!the!potential!for!
getting!a!teaching!gig;!it!also!is!a!place!where!one!will!make!connections!with!
other!musicians.!I!am!not!qualified!to!analyze!how!and!why!a!lot!of!people!
get!shafted!the!opportunity!to!attend!college!(especially!the!
"conservatories").!All!I!know!is!that!almost!all!jazz!majors!I!have!ever!met!
have!been!wellitoido!white!people.”33!
!
Alan!Ferber!noted!that!the!business!of!jazz!education!is!larger!than!the!business!of!
jazz!itself,!and!Tanaka!rightly!points!out!that!it!is!nearly!impossible!to!make!a!
sustainable!living!simply!as!a!player.34!Teaching!is!a!necessary!part!of!a!career!in!
!
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jazz,!if!only!for!financial!reasons,!but!many!creative!people!are!not!well!suited!for!a!
career!in!academia.!It!would!be!difficult!to!imagine!a!jazz!great!like!Miles!Davis!in!an!
academic!setting,!and!it!is!unfortunate!that!so!many!are!excluded!from!participating.!
It!should!be!noted!that!this!is!not!the!only!reason!for!the!racial!shift!–!jazz!is!no!
longer!a!major!part!of!the!black!community!that!it!was!in!the!early!half!of!the!
twentieth!century.!Hipihop,!which!grew!out!of!the!funk!of!the!1970s,!has!become!
the!predominant!music!present!in!the!black!community.!The!shift!in!tastes!is!a!
complex!issue,!but!it!seems!that!jazz!and!the!American!black!community!
simultaneously!retreated!from!one!another.!
At!the!same!time,!the!role!of!women!in!jazz!has!increased!significantly,!and!
this!is!no!doubt!a!result!of!their!increasing!presence!in!the!university!system.!In!fact,!
many!of!the!most!prominent!living!big!band!composers!are!women.!Maria!Schneider!
has!noted!that!composition!might!be!the!easiest!entry!point!for!women!in!jazz,!as!it!
is!a!role!that!is!still!outside!the!“boys!club”!atmosphere!of!jazz!performance!and!
improvisation.35!It!is!difficult!to!assess!this!statement!in!the!current!scene!–!perhaps!
it!was!true!during!the!1980s!when!she!began!her!career!in!jazz,!but!it!is!hard!to!find!
a!working!big!band!without!at!least!a!couple!of!women.!In!2000,!the!National!
Endowment!for!the!Arts!commissioned!a!study!of!jazz!musicians!in!four!cities:!New!
York,!New!Orleans,!Detroit,!and!San!Francisco.!This!study!found!that!women!make!
up!roughly!20!percent!of!jazz!musicians.36!However,!it!is!only!recently!that!women!
have!begun!participating!in!jazz!on!all!instruments.!Saxophones,!brass,!and!drums!in!
particular!are!stereotypically!masculine!instruments,!leading!most!women!in!jazz!to!
piano!and!composition.!In!order!to!achieve!more!diverse!horn!sections,!children!
!
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need!female!role!models!in!order!to!overturn!gender!biases!toward!certain!
instruments,!and!thankfully!the!number!of!those!potential!role!models!has!been!
increasing.!The!university!system!offers!women!access!to!jazz!that!might!not!be!
found!as!readily!in!the!often!maleidominated!networks!of!performers.!That!said,!
there!is!still!far!from!equal!representation!in!both!the!ensemble,!and!jazz!as!a!whole.!
Ultimately,!most!women!in!jazz!would!like!to!be!known!as!great!musicians!first,!but!
this!cannot!be!accomplished!until!more!gender!diversity!normalizes!women’s!
presence!in!the!big!band!community.37!
A(Way(Forward?(
Most!would!agree!that!the!diversity!of!voices,!in!terms!of!both!race!and!
gender,!is!integral!to!the!genre!moving!forward,!but!solutions!to!the!problem!of!
exclusion!within!the!university!system!are!uncertain.!In!our!interview,!Darcy!James!
Argue!commented!on!the!situation:!
“[U]ltimately!what’s!the!alternative?!If!there!aren’t!those!gigs!and!aren’t!
those!opportunities!to!learn!on!the!bandstand,!something!has!to!take!its!
place.!Academia!has!taken!its!place,!so!I!think!everyone’s!trying!to!figure!out!
how!to!make!their!peace!with!this!situation.!Everyone’s!trying!to!figure!out!
how!to!make!it!better,!how!to!bring!more!diverse!voices!back!into!the!
equation,!and!how!to!make!sure!that!AfricaniAmericans!–!who!created!this!
music!–!can!still!play!a!really!vital!voice!and!be!represented!at!all!levels,!
including!in!university!programs.”38!
!
Certainly!including!the!voices!of!all!people!of!color!is!important!to!the!future!of!big!
band!music,!as!well!as!jazz!music!as!a!whole.!Jazz!is!often!referred!to!as!“America’s!
music”!because!it!reflects!the!story!of!the!United!States:!people!from!many!places!in!
the!world!arrived!here!under!dramatically!different!circumstances!and!melded!all!of!
their!native!traditions!into!a!new!culture.!Jazz!is!the!musical!representation!of!this!
!
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blending!of!traditions,!incorporating!rhythms!and!blue!notes!from!the!African!
tradition!(both!directly!and!combined!with!Hispanic!influence!via!the!Caribbean),!
forms!and!harmony!from!European!marches,!and!elements!of!the!blues!(itself!a!
blending!of!African!work!songs!and!folk!music).!Jazz!finds!its!strength!in!the!
diversity!of!the!voices!within!it,!and!if!jazz!is!to!primarily!exist!within!the!university!
system,!the!university!system!must!continue!to!increase!the!diversity!of!its!students.!
Wynton!Marsalis!compares!jazz!to!the!ideals!of!American!democracy,!in!which!every!
person’s!humanity!is!embraced.39!Progress!has!certainly!been!made!in!gender!
diversity,!but!there!is!still!much!work!to!be!done!to!increase!racial!and!economic!
diversity.!
! Additionally,!if!jazz!is!to!continue!to!exist!primarily!within!academia,!
educators!must!endeavor!to!maintain!the!apprenticeship!style!of!teaching!as!much!
as!possible,!sitting!in!with!their!students,!working!with!them!directly!on!their!
compositions,!and!giving!them!life!lessons!at!the!same!time.!Administrators!need!to!
allow!faculty!enough!freedom!to!teach!in!this!way,!rather!than!implementing!a!
purely!testibased!curriculum.!Further,!professors!must!encourage!risk!taking,!both!
in!playing!and!composing,!and!allow!for!a!certain!amount!of!failure!in!order!to!give!
students!a!better!chance!at!finding!a!unique!voice.!Universities!should!maintain!
close!relationships!with!professional!jazz!players!and!big!band!leaders,!and!should!
continue!to!bring!these!professionals!in!to!interact!with!students.!Students!in!big!
bands!should!not!only!be!learning!classic!tunes,!they!should!be!playing!new!music!
by!living!jazz!composers.!Nate!Kimball!remarked,!“I!know!there!are!a!lot!of!bands!
that!are!really!on!the!cutting!edge,!and!everything!they!do!ultimately!is!preserving!
!
71!
history!through!progress.”40!Keeping!students!engaged!with!these!composers!keeps!
the!history!of!the!ensemble!alive.!Perhaps!most!importantly,!jazz!educators!need!to!
pass!on!the!joy!of!the!music.!The!university!setting!has!a!tendency!to!focus!too!much!
on!quantifiable!elements!that!can!be!tested,!but!in!music!(as!in!many!other!creative!
disciplines)!often!what!is!most!important!for!the!later!careers!of!students!are!the!
intangible!elements!passed!on!directly!from!the!professors,!the!love!and!joy!of!the!
music.!For!the!ensemble!and!the!music!to!continue,!there!must!be!enough!space!
within!the!curriculum!for!educators!to!pass!on!this!joy!and!deep!appreciation.!
!
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CHAPTER(4:(THE(ENSEMBLE’S(TIES(TO(MUSICAL(CONSERVATISM(
Defining(the(Issue(
! One!of!the!largest!issues!keeping!contemporary!big!band!music!from!
reaching!new!audiences!is!the!ensemble’s!connection!with!musical!conservatism.!
Big!bands!are!typically!associated!with!swing!music!that!was!tremendously!popular!
in!the!1930s!and!early!1940s.!This!early!success!has!contributed!to!the!myth!that!
big!bands!are!an!anachronism!and!that!the!ensemble!died!out!decades!ago.!The!
Grove!Dictionary!of!American!Music!defines!big!band!as!“A!type!of!dance!band!
popular!especially!in!the!1930s!and!1940s,!typically!consisting!of!ten!to!15!
instruments,!predominantly!wind.”1!This!definition!clearly!applies!only!to!a!small!
number!of!bands!from!a!certain!time!period!playing!a!specific!genre!of!music,!with!
most!contemporary!bands!falling!well!outside!the!stylistic!and!functional!
constraints!of!this!characterization.!Within!certain!parts!of!the!big!band!community,!
accusations!of!musical!conservatism!can!be!a!particularly!biting!insult,!but!the!issue!
is!complex!and!has!a!history!that!encompasses!even!the!early!years!of!the!ensemble.!
! Simply!defining!musical!conservatism!as!it!relates!to!big!band!is!a!difficult!
task,!and!its!meaning!may!change!depending!on!context.!Generally!what!is!meant!is!
that!a!musician!or!band!plays!either!canonic!tunes!exclusively!(like!some!of!the!
repertory!orchestras),!or!they!play!in!an!older!style,!even!if!some!of!the!tunes!are!
newly!composed.!Most!musicians!labeled!as!conservative!will!include!all!the!jazz!
styles!up!to!the!hard!bop!of!the!1960s.!It!was!after!this!point!that!rock!and!pop!
elements!began!to!enter!jazz,!and!the!inclusion!of!these!outside!influences!is!treated!
!
73!
by!some!as!a!dilution!of!jazz.!Perhaps!the!musician!most!frequently!accused!of!
musical!conservatism!is!Wynton!Marsalis.!Composer/arranger!David!Berger!
defends!Marsalis,!and!recasts!the!accusation!in!a!positive!light,!stating!that!
conserving!means!keeping!quality!music!while!creating!new!music!rooted!in!its!
predecessors.2!This!statement!is!not!at!odds!with!the!opinions!of!more!progressive!
big!band!leaders!and!players,!but!most!would!add!that!the!individual!composer!
must!find!his!or!her!own!voice,!which!might!include!other!musical!influences.!In!a!
1992!interview,!Marsalis!himself!even!said!that!jazz!should!“evolve!through!a!
certain!type!of!individuality,”!but!just!how!it!should!evolve!this!way!is!unclear,!given!
that!Marsalis!had!just!stated!that!jazz!is!not!supposed!to!develop!like!European!
music,!that!the!earliest!jazz!should!stay!modern.3!
A!middle!way,!suggested!by!Rich!Shemaria!in!our!interview,!would!be!to!
argue!that!learning!and!respecting!the!history!of!big!bands!and!the!history!of!jazz!in!
general!helps!preserve!the!depth!of!the!music,!a!depth!to!which!each!new!voice!is!
added.4!Likewise,!Alan!Ferber!asserted!that!it’s!incredibly!important!to!gain!
experience!with!the!history!and!tradition!of!the!ensemble,!but!that!in!order!for!it!to!
survive,!composers!must!bring!their!own!personalities!and!own!music!to!the!group.!
In!this!way,!the!music!stays!current!and!relevant.5!Ralph!Lalama!argued!that!if!the!
future!of!big!band!music!is!to!be!of!a!high!quality,!it!must!be!rooted!in!the!past,!but!
added!that!this!does!not!mean!that!modern!composers!should!simply!emulate!their!
predecessors.6!It!is!unlikely!that!there!are!any!current!big!band!composers!who!
would!argue!against!knowing!about!the!traditions!of!the!ensemble,!but!the!primary!
divide!between!the!more!progressive!leaders!and!the!more!conservative!ones!are!
!
74!
where!one!draws!the!line!in!terms!of!outside!influences.!Conservativeileaning!
leaders!tend!to!focus!on!older!styles,!excluding!rock,!pop,!hipihop,!avantigarde!
classical,!electronic,!and!other!outside!influences.!Musically!progressive!composers!
tend!to!freely!integrate!music!from!many!genres!into!their!compositions.!
Authenticity(of(Expression(
! A!related!issue!to!defining!the!boundaries!of!musical!conservatism!(or!at!
least!presenting!a!spectrum!of!possible!views)!is!the!depth!and!authenticity!of!the!
music.!Some!composers!and!bandleaders!deemed!conservative!argue!that!what!is!
missing!in!some!of!the!more!recent!music!that!includes!many!outside!influences!is!
the!depth!of!expression!available!in!simpler!forms!and!traditional!styles.!In!essence,!
they!argue!that!jazz!musicians!have!traded!depth!for!breadth.!In!defense!of!his!
brother,!Branford!Marsalis!stated!in!a!Down(Beat!interview:!
“Today’s!musicians!are!far!more!versatile!in!the!things!they!can!do!but!have!
light,!compact!sounds!and!massive!limitations!in!terms!of!swing.!The!
emphasis!of!the!songs!becomes!harmony!and!oddimeter!forms.!It’s!more!of!a!
race!toward!scholarship.!Wynton’s!band!was!the!absolute!antithesis!of!that…!
Neither!the!song!forms!nor!the!meters!were!complex.!It!sounds!simple!until!
you!get!your!ass!on!the!stage!and!try!to!do!it…!There!was!an!easier!and!more!
difficult!way!of!playing!back!then,!and!we!gave!it!up!for!a!more!difficult,!
easier!way!of!playing!now.”7!
!
Wynton!would!likely!agree!with!this!assessment,!given!his!recurring!statements!that!
all!jazz!is!modern!music.!This!issue!is!also!related!to!the!issue!of!the!homogenization!
of!style!discussed!in!the!previous!chapter.!As!forms!and!changes!become!more!
complex,!it!is!possible!that!individual!expression!during!solos!can!be!lost.!While!the!
more!progressive!bandleaders!would!agree!with!learning!the!roots!of!big!band!jazz,!
one!of!the!specific!complaints!about!Marsalis’!music!is!that!it!lacks!a!unique!voice.!In!
!
75!
a!2004!Down(Beat!article,!Dan!Ouellette!wonders!whether!Marsalis!might!be!the!
Salieri!of!his!time,!building!a!strong!band!and!presence!in!New!York,!but!never!
creating!music!that!is!unique!or!even!emulated!by!younger!contemporaries.8!
In!a!2007!interview!with!Christian!Scott,!Marsalis!also!reveals!that!the!notion!
of!the!authenticity!of!expression!found!in!simpler!forms!may!not!be!the!true!reason!
behind!his!championing!of!traditional!big!band!music.!In!the!interview,!Marsalis!is!
asked!if!he!listens!to!hip!hop!music.!His!response!is!that!he!has!listened!to!some!(he!
gives!the!example!of!50!Cent)!with!his!sons.!He!stated!that!he!analyzed!the!music!
and!talked!with!them!about!the!key,!form,!and!other!musical!factors.!He!then!
proceeded!to!play!classical!sonatas!and!Duke!Ellington!tunes!for!them!to!
demonstrate!the!superiority!of!these!pieces.!He!goes!on!to!say!that!not!one!“piece”!of!
hipihop!music!“satisfies!all!the!requirements!of!contemporary!AfroiAmerican!
experience.”9!Marsalis’!reception!of!hipihop!seems!somewhat!narrow,!and!his!
methodology!for!rejecting!the!entire!genre!belies!an!academic!approach.!Even!the!
designation!of!a!hip!hop!song!as!a!“piece”!carries!certain!connotations!that!are!at!
odds!with!valuing!authentic!expression!through!simple!means.!His!true!opinions!
and!motivations!are!always!difficult!to!ascertain,!and!Marsalis!himself!has!often!
stated!that!he!sometimes!says!things!in!an!exaggerated!way!in!order!to!stir!up!
emotions!and!get!a!conversation!started.10!This!issue!will!be!further!explored!after!
detailing!the!history!and!programming!of!the!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center!Orchestra.!
!
76!
Mistaken(Views(
One!of!the!factors!in!the!persistent!myth!that!the!big!band!is!an!ensemble!of!
the!past!is!the!focus!on!the!small!group!by!jazz!scholars!as!the!most!fertile!area!of!
innovation,!as!outlined!in!the!introductory!chapter.!Prewritten!large!ensemble!
music!naturally!connects!big!band!music!to!classical!music,!overlooking!the!freer!
aspects!of!the!music.!The!use!of!the!term!“jazz!orchestra”!by!many!big!band!leaders!
in!more!recent!times!may!have,!in!fact,!further!cemented!this!spurious!connection!
with!classical!music.!In!terms!of!ensemble!blend,!some!big!band!writers!do!take!a!
more!generalized!approach,!but!many!write!with!specific!players!in!mind,!so!that!
each!individual!maintains!his!or!her!musical!personality!within!the!texture!of!the!
larger!ensemble.!Duke!Ellington!famously!wrote!the!name!of!the!player!on!his!parts.!
More!recently,!the!Mingus!Big!Band!openly!encourages!players!to!play!in!a!
confrontational!style,!and!musicians!whose!sounds!do!not!blend!well!are!often!
booked!for!this!reason.!Michael!Phillip!Mossman,!longtime!arranger!for!the!band,!
says!that!the!band!is!more!successful!when!all!of!the!players!are!exuberant!and!
sometimes!clashing!with!one!another,!rather!than!subduing!themselves!and!trying!
to!blend!sounds.11!
! Additionally,!the!term!“big!band”!has!been!so!deeply!connected!with!older!
styles!that!many!composers!refuse!to!use!this!label!with!their!ensembles.!Alan!
Ferber!points!out!that!it!is!a!problem!that!exists!on!a!larger!level!in!jazz!as!well:!
“When!you!just!say!the!word!‘big!band,’!there’s!a!crusty!connotation!to!that.!
It’s!like!the!word!‘jazz.’!People!refer!to!it!as!a!fouriletter!word.!People!are!
afraid!to!use!the!word!‘big!band’!when!they!actually!put!together!their!own!
big!band,!because!they!don’t!want!people!to!think!that!it’s!like!Shiny(
Stockings,!you!know.![laughs]!As!long!as!people!keep!doing!new!things!with!
it,!I!think!that!those!two!words!will!hopefully!regain!some!kind!of!hipness!
!
77!
factor![laughs],!you!know,!where!people!won’t!be!like,!‘Oh!god,!big!band!is!
boring,’!or,!‘Big!band!is!for!my!grandparents,’!but!will!be!like,!‘Oh!yeah,!big!
band’s!cool.!I’m!going!to!go!check!that!out.’”12!
!
Freeing!the!label!of!its!baggage!might!be!an!impossible!task,!but!many!big!band!
composers,!including!Gordon!Goodwin,!Dave!Holland,!and!Monika!Roscher,!have!
recently!reclaimed!the!term.!Throughout!the!1990s!and!well!into!the!2000s,!many!
bandleaders!released!albums!under!their!own!names,!with!no!mention!of!the!
ensemble!used.!If!the!ensemble!was!identified,!it!was!usually!referred!to!as!a!jazz!
orchestra.!Sometimes!that!“fouriletter!word”!was!dropped!as!well!and!the!groups!
were!just!labeled!orchestras.!Taking!a!look!at!the!big!band!recordings!released!in!
1993,!only!2!of!the!11!recordings!released!were!specifically!labeled!as!big!bands,!
with!3!jazz!orchestras!and!6!big!band!leaders!releasing!the!albums!under!their!own!!
Ensemble!name! 2013! 2003! 1993!

Big!Band! 12! 7! 2!
(Jazz)!Orchestra! 5! 10! 3!
Other! 5! 10! 6!
table(2:(ensemble(names(
names!with!no!mention!of!the!ensemble!used.!By!2003,!the!jazz!orchestra!label!
clearly!had!gained!some!popularity,!with!10!out!of!the!27!albums!released!falling!
into!this!category.!7!of!the!albums!released!in!2003!were!labeled!as!big!band,!which!
is!roughly!the!same!percentage!as!1993,!while!10!were!either!under!the!leader’s!
name!or!called!something!else!entirely.!The!releases!of!2013!show!that!many!more!
people!are!becoming!comfortable!with!using!the!term!“big!band”!once!again,!with!12!
out!of!the!22!albums!being!labeled!as!such.!In!addition,!part!of!the!reason!the!term!
may!be!growing!in!popularity!again!is!the!increasing!number!of!albums!being!
!
78!
released!in!Europe,!where!both!the!term!and!the!ensemble!are!not!as!closely!
associated!with!the!past.!
Nostalgia(
! Perhaps!the!most!prevalent!issue!regarding!conservatism!in!big!band!music!
is!the!nostalgia!associated!with!the!popular!swing!bands!of!the!1930s!and!1940s.!In!
a!recent!letter!to!the!editor!in!Down(Beat!magazine!(labeled!“Chords!&!Discords”),!
Herb!Stark!remarks!remarked!that!while!he!enjoyed!the!yearly!Readers’!Poll,!he!
suggested!adding!a!“Nostalgia”!category!that!would!honor!the!early!big!band!
years.13!The!results!of!the!Readers’!Poll,!along!with!the!yearly!Critics’!Poll,!are!
intended!to!represent!some!of!the!best!jazz!of!the!year,!including!polls!for!individual!
instruments,!ensembles,!and!composers.!There!is!already!a!big!band!category!in!the!
Readers’!Poll,!but!the!winners!are!active!big!bands!that!play!mostly!new!music.!
While!Stark’s!fond!recollections!of!the!early!years!of!big!band!music!are!certainly!
understandable,!it!is!difficult!to!justify!a!category!in!a!yearly!poll!in!which!no!new!
entries!are!allowed!from!one!year!to!the!next,!and!such!a!category!would!further!
reinforce!the!idea!that!the!term!“big!band”!denotes!a!specific!style!and!time!period,!
rather!than!simply!designating!the!ensemble.!
! Thankfully,!there!are!others!who!are!aware!of!the!full!history!of!big!band!
music.!In!another!recent!letter!to!the!editor!in!Down(Beat,!Gordon!Webb!chastises!
the!magazine!for!not!having!enough!variety!in!an!article!written!by!FrankiJohn!
Hadley!titled!“My!Favorite!Big!Band!Album:!25!Essential!Recordings”:!
“I!was!disappointed!with!your!“My!Favorite!Big!Band!Album”!article!(April).!
When!12!of!your!list!of!25!essential!big!band!albums!are!from!the!same!three!
artists!(Duke!Ellington,!Count!Basie!and!Miles!Davis),!it!makes!having!a!list!
rather!pointless.!Also,!I!was!shocked!not!to!find!any!mention!of!Toshiko!
!
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Akiyoshi.!The!Akiyoshi–Tabackin!big!band!ruled!the!’70s!and!beyond,!with!
Akiyoshi!becoming!the!first!woman!and!first!Asian!to!win!a!Down!Beat!
award.”14!
!
Each!album!listed!in!the!article!is!accompanied!by!praise!from!jazz!musicians,!and!
all!are!arguably!masterpieces,!but!Webb’s!critique!addresses!the!fact!that!half!of!the!
entries!are!taken!by!three!artists,!while!many!later!big!band!composers!were!not!
represented.!In!fact,!only!two!big!band!composers!on!the!list,!Kenny!Wheeler!and!
Maria!Schneider,!are!still!living.!
! Tied!in!with!the!issue!of!nostalgia!is!the!related!issue!of!audience!
expectations.!Given!the!connection!of!the!ensemble!with!the!early!swing!genre,!
there!is!an!instant!mental!association!that!can!make!it!difficult!to!court!younger!
audiences.!Some!bands!(particularly!the!repertory!and!legacy!bands)!use!this!to!
their!advantage,!playing!welliworn!tunes!for!older!audiences!who!expect!to!hear!
what!they!know,!rather!than!be!exposed!to!new!music.!The!modern!bands!that!play!
almost!entirely!new!music,!on!the!other!hand,!tend!to!be!aimed!at!younger!
audiences!who!are!interested!in!new!music!that!reflects!contemporary!culture.!As!
stated!earlier,!many!of!these!bands!forgo!the!term!“big!band”!in!order!to!stay!clear!
of!the!genre!association.!Even!bands!that!lie!somewhere!in!between,!such!as!the!Jazz!
at!Lincoln!Center!Orchestra,!find!that!the!audience!often!appears!to!enjoy!the!
standard!tunes!more!than!new!compositions!(even!if!those!new!compositions!are!in!
an!older!style).!After!a!week!on!tour!with!the!band,!journalist!Paul!de!Barros!
describes!the!audience!reaction!to!a!new!tune!by!Andy!Farber!as!lukewarm,!while!a!
performance!of!“Take!the!A!Train”!elicits!cheers!and!inspires!many!to!dance.!While!
it!is!likely!that!the!primary!reason!for!this!difference!in!audience!reaction!is!the!
!
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recognition!of!the!tune,!a!secondary!reason!might!be!that!the!Farber!tune!was!
written!in!the!Ellington!mold.!Although!both!tunes!were!similar!in!style,!the!Farber!
tune!might!have!been!lacking!in!authenticity!or!individual!character.!This!provides!
another!counterpoint!to!Marsalis’!assertion!that!the!older,!simpler!styles!allow!for!
more!authentic!expression!–!when!it!comes!to!soloing,!perhaps!the!older!styles!do!
allow!more!room!for!personal!expression,!but!authenticity!through!composition!
may!require!a!more!up!to!date!approach.!Alan!Ferber’s!statement!about!creating!a!
unique!voice!and!keeping!the!music!relevant!by!being!of!our!time!rather!than!
mimicking!earlier!styles!may!be!the!better!route!to!authenticity!when!it!comes!to!
creating!new!works.!
The(Role(of(Repertory(Bands(
! Repertory!bands!are!both!a!prevalent!and!sometimes!contested!institution!in!
the!larger!big!band!scene.!While!there!is!an!admitted!need!for!continuing!
performances!of!standard!tunes,!scholars,!critics,!and!musicians!alike!are!divided!on!
how!standard!tunes!should!be!approached,!and!whether!or!not!special!big!bands!
need!to!be!established!to!perform!this!repertory.!Some!might!argue!that!repertory!
tunes!should!be!incorporated!into!performances!given!by!modern!bands;!however,!
most!modern!bands!will!only!include!a!small!number!of!standard!arrangements!in!a!
performance!(if!they!include!any).!Many!bands!only!play!new!compositions!by!the!
bandleader,!with!the!goal!of!creating!a!unique!sound!that!sets!the!band!apart!from!
other!acts.!
!
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! One!of!the!largest!issues!when!approaching!standard!tunes!is!how!a!band!
should!interpret!the!music.!Chuck!Israels!explains!the!issue,!outlining!two!
approaches:!a!band!can!either!try!to!sound!like!the!recordings!of!the!band!they!are!
trying!to!emulate,!or!they!can!reinterpret!the!tunes!with!their!individual!players!in!
mind.!So!a!repertory!band!has!to!decide!whether!to!mimic!the!approach!or!the!
sound!of!the!original!band.15!Bands!that!attempt!to!recreate!the!exact!sound!of!the!
original!recording!(even!playing!transcribed!solos)!are!often!disparaged!by!jazz!
critics,!some!of!whom!feel!that!taking!away!the!improvisational!element!and!active!
interpretation!sterilizes!the!music.!That!said,!there!is!also!danger!in!reinterpreting!
classic!tunes.!During!its!short!existence,!the!Carnegie!Hall!Jazz!Band!often!
performed!new!arrangements!of!standard!tunes!that!were!so!different!from!the!
originals!they!might!be!considered!recompositions.!The!band!was!routinely!
criticized!for!this!practice,!and!eventually!lost!funding!after!the!ascendance!of!the!
more!conservative!Lincoln!Center!Jazz!Orchestra.!
! A!subcategory!of!the!repertory!band!is!the!soicalled!“ghost”!band.!Ghost!
bands!(also!called!tribute!or!legacy!bands)!are!bands!that!play!only!the!music!of!a!
single!big!band!whose!leader!is!no!longer!living.!For!the!most!part,!the!bands!aped!
are!the!white!big!bands!of!the!late!1930s!and!early!1940s,!such!as!Glenn!Miller,!
Tommy!Dorsey,!and!Benny!Goodman,!although!Count!Basie!also!has!a!popular!ghost!
band.!These!bands!often!work!more!than!their!contemporary!counterparts,!but!the!
nostalgia!that!feeds!ticket!sales!is!on!the!decline,!as!the!generation!that!grew!up!
with!the!swing!music!of!the!1930s!and!1940s!passes!on.!The!first!ghost!band!was!
the!Glenn!Miller!Orchestra,!and!the!precedents!set!by!this!band!largely!influenced!all!
!
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the!ghost!bands!to!follow.!!The!band!began!in!1946,!shortly!after!the!death!of!its!
leader.!It!was!led!by!Tex!Beneke,!and!consisted!mostly!of!Miller!band!veterans.!
Beneke’s!initial!idea!was!to!continue!the!band!in!a!natural!way,!incorporating!new!
tunes!and!moving!in!a!direction!he!thought!would!have!been!favored!under!Miller.!
The!Miller!family!disagreed!with!Beneke’s!approach!and!promptly!fired!him.!Since!
then,!the!Miller!band!continues!to!tour!48!weeks!a!year,!and!has!performed!the!
same!book!for!over!60!years.!Playing!a!book!for!that!long!is!not!a!problem!in!itself;!
the!real!issue!with!the!ghost!bands!is!that!the!most!successful!of!them!are!modeled!
after!mediocre!bands!of!the!1930s!and!1940s.!!John!McDonough!clarifies:!
“Ironically,!it!was!precisely!the!Miller!band’s!lack!of!individual!strengths!that!
made!it!possible!to!continue.!For!there!was!nothing!in!the!Miller!cocktail!that!
could!not!be!easily!substituted!or!replaced—even!Miller!himself,!who!had!no!
particular!stage!excitement!or!gifts!on!the!trombone.!His!great!achievement!
lay!in!a!collective!scoring!gimmick!that!any!group!of!good!musicians!can!
approximate—a!clarinet!lead!on!top!of!a!quartet!of!saxes!and!framed!in!soft,!
muted!brass!strokes.”16!
!
In!fact,!when!new!players!are!auditioned!for!the!band,!more!individualized!sounds!
are!discouraged!(sometimes!costing!a!player!the!job),!and!one!is!expected!to!be!able!
to!mimic!the!exact!width!and!rate!of!the!vibrato!used!by!the!original!band.!One!
would!expect!jazz!musicians!to!be!irritated!by!this!lack!of!individual!expression,!but!
the!musicians!in!the!Miller!band!see!it!differently.!Although!many!of!the!musicians!
in!the!band!are!true!jazz!musicians,!they!view!the!Miller!band!concerts!as!shows,!in!
the!same!way!they!might!view!a!Broadway!production.17!Former!lead!trombonist!of!
the!Miller!band,!Bruce!Paulson,!echoed!this!understanding!that!the!band!“wasn’t!a!
real!jazz!band”!during!our!conversation.18!!
!
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The!real!problem!with!this!approach!is!not!that!the!Miller!band!is!a!show!
band,!but!that!the!typical!audience!member!does!not!think!of!it!as!a!show!band,!and!
assumes!that!it!is!representative!of!all!big!bands.!There!is!certainly!nothing!wrong!
with!being!a!show!band!performing!older!tunes,!but!it!is!unfortunate!that!the!ghost!
bands!are!placed!in!the!same!category!as!a!contemporary!big!band,!being!that!the!
two!groups!have!little!in!common!in!terms!of!intentions,!working!methods,!or!even!
basic!sounds.!The!end!effect!is!that!the!contemporary!bands!might!not!receive!the!
right!kind!of!exposure!because!it!is!assumed!that!because!they!are!big!bands!that!
the!music!performed!will!be!canonic!swing!music.!
The(Jazz(at(Lincoln(Center(Orchestra(
! One!very!famous!band!that!has!walked!a!careful!line!between!repertory!band!
and!working!band!is!the!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center!Orchestra.!Established!in!1988!by!
Wynton!Marsalis,!the!band!was!initially!composed!of!older!players,!many!of!them!
alumni!of!the!Ellington!band.!The!initial!concerts!were!part!of!the!Lincoln!Center’s!
“Classical!Jazz”!series,!and!in!the!early!years!the!JLCO!was!essentially!a!repertory!
band.!Marsalis!was!influenced!by!Albert!Murray!and!Stanley!Crouch,!two!leading!
jazz!critics!who!held!very!specific!(and!notably!conservative)!beliefs!about!the!
definition!of!jazz!and!what!big!bands!should!perform.!Jazz!scholar!Alex!Stewart!
notes!that!the!rhetoric!used!during!the!inception!of!the!JLCO!matched!up!with!an!
“era!of!ascendant!neoconservative!values.”19!
Rob!Gibson,!the!original!director!of!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center,!stated!in!an!
interview!that!such!a!program!had!been!suggested!as!far!back!as!the!1960s,!but!was!
!
84!
never!able!to!find!funding.!He!suggested!the!fact!that!Wynton!Marsalis’!early!career!
consisted!of!both!classical!and!jazz!performances!was!key!in!convincing!primarily!
conservative!donors!to!sign!on!to!the!project.20!One!of!Marsalis’!early!statements!
confirm!the!musically!conservative!agenda,!in!which!he!says!the!freedom!in!jazz!is!
with!restraint,!and!when!played!properly!within!the!structure,!a!person!can!put!
their!freedom!at!the!service!of!the!larger!group.21!This!statement,!in!combination!
with!Murray’s!direction!to!improvisers!“not!to!violate!the!beat”!established!the!
rhetoric!behind!the!JLCO,!which!sought!to!create!an!image!opposite!that!of!the!rival!
Carnegie!Hall!Jazz!Band.22!If!the!Carnegie!Hall!Jazz!Band!insisted!on!playing!new!
music!and!drastic!reinterpretations!of!standards,!the!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center!
Orchestra!would!not!only!recreate!the!performance!traditions!of!its!preferred!
models!–!the!Ellington!orchestra!in!particular!–!but!also!include!Ellington!veterans!
in!the!band!itself.!
! After!the!initial!success!of!the!JLCO,!Marsalis!began!to!move!the!band!away!
from!standards!and!into!new!music!(still!written!in!a!conservative!style).!Around!
this!time,!he!also!fired!all!of!the!older!band!members,!who!were!replaced!by!
inexperienced!players!from!outside!New!York.!Marsalis!claims!that!his!interest!is!in!
continuing!the!tradition!of!apprenticeship,!but!many!of!his!critics!viewed!it!as!a!
consolidation!of!power!over!the!ensemble.!David!Berger,!one!of!Marsalis’!allies!and!
a!longtime!supporter!of!the!repertory!movement,!admitted,!“He’d!rather!have!young!
cats!that!don’t!have!a!style!so!they!can!develop!one.!If!he!thinks!you’re!rushing,!he!
wants!to!be!able!to!say!you’re!rushing!and!you’ll!do!what!he!says!and!not!question!
it.”23!
!
85!
! In!an!interview!with!Down(Beat!magazine!in!2008,!Marsalis!claimed!that!
some!of!his!past!controversial!statements!and!decisions!were!meant!to!incite!the!
press,!and!that!his!goal!was!always!to!spread!the!love!of!jazz.24!He!also!began!to!
focus!more!on!the!new!directions!of!the!orchestra!and!the!variety!of!current!
programming.!In!another!interview!with!Down(Beat!in!2010,!he!continued!to!
emphasize!the!amount!of!new!music!being!produced!by!the!orchestra,!pointing!out!
that!they!were!helping!showcase!jazz!to!new!audiences!and!raise!funds!for!future!
endeavors.25!It!should!be!acknowledged!that!regardless!of!any!agenda!behind!the!
group,!the!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center!Orchestra!has!led!the!effort!to!give!big!bands!a!
more!sophisticated!and!refined!musical!image.!Alex!Stewart!judges!the!effort!to!be!a!
success,!noting!that!Marsalis!was!the!first!jazz!musician!to!be!awarded!a!Pulitzer,!an!
honor!that!was!denied!Ellington!when!he!was!nominated!in!1965.26!
The(Dangers(of(Establishing(a(Big(Band(Canon(
! The!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center!Orchestra!has!been!tremendously!successful,!but!
questions!arise!concerning!the!motivations!of!its!leader,!Wynton!Marsalis.!One!of!
Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center’s!known!goals!is!to!construct!a!jazz!lineage!and!establish!a!
canon!within!the!big!band!world.!During!the!early!19th!century,!as!the!orchestra!
became!one!of!the!preferred!ensembles!for!serious!music!and!the!genre!of!the!
symphony!rose!to!prominence,!there!was!a!need!to!establish!a!lineage!and!add!
legitimacy!to!the!genre.!The!works!of!Mozart!and!Haydn!were!chosen!to!represent!
this!Classical!era!of!the!symphony,!and!these!works!began!to!be!looked!at!much!
!
86!
more!seriously!than!they!would!have!been!during!the!composers’!lifetimes.!
According!to!Rob!Gibson,!the!original!director!of!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center,!the!classical!
canon!was!used!as!a!model!for!the!establishment!of!a!similar!jazz!canon.!Marsalis!
and!Gibson’s!reasoning!behind!the!creation!of!a!jazz!canon!were!both!to!elevate!the!
status!of!the!music!and!to!offer!a!guide!for!future!jazz!education.27!
The!“Classical!Jazz”!concerts!that!marked!the!arrival!of!the!Jazz!at!Lincoln!
Center!Orchestra!became!an!effort!to!posit!Duke!Ellington!in!particular!as!the!
Mozart!of!jazz!(a!statement!that!is!made!in!the!Ken!Burns!documentary,!Jazz).28!
Marsalis’!choices!of!which!jazz!artists!to!include!in!his!canon!results!from!drawing!a!
lineage!back!from!himself!to!some!of!the!early!greats,!such!as!Ellington!and!Louis!
Armstrong.!The!danger!in!this!exercise!is!that!any!musician!or!composer!that!falls!
outside!of!this!specific!line!of!descent!is!left!out!of!the!canon.!Classical!music!has!
experienced!this!same!problem,!as!the!countries!containing!the!greatest!number!of!
revered!composers!(namely!Germany,!France,!and!Italy)!happened!to!be!the!same!
countries!where!those!who!pieced!together!the!classical!canon!resided.!In!Marsalis’!
jazz!canon,!he!is!well!aware!of!the!music!he!is!excluding.!One!famous!example!of!this!
comes!from!the!previously!mentioned!Ken!Burns!documentary,!Jazz.!Marsalis!was!
the!primary!collaborator!on!this!film,!and!while!the!early!history!is!covered!with!
depth!and!insight,!the!later!developments!are!either!entirely!missing!or!mentioned!
with!derision.!
According!to!the!narrative!of!the!film,!somewhere!around!the!late!1960s!jazz!
is!“corrupted”!by!outside!musical!influences.!The!savior!of!jazz!does!not!arrive!until!
the!1980s,!in!the!person!of!Wynton!Marsalis.!Marsalis!certainly!deserves!to!be!
!
87!
represented!in!the!documentary,!but!it!is!unfortunate!that!so!many!jazz!musicians!
were!excluded!because!they!fell!outside!of!this!specific!lineage.!One!of!the!musicians!
left!out!of!the!interim!span!in!particular!was!Stan!Kenton.!On!the!surface,!the!music!
Kenton’s!big!band!created!in!the!1960s!and!1970s!would!appear!to!fall!well!within!
the!type!favored!by!Marsalis.!Kenton!expanded!the!lush!orchestrations!of!Ellington!
(or!rather,!the!composers!and!arrangers!he!employed!did),!and!most!importantly!
Kenton!was!one!of!the!pioneers!of!jazz!education,!a!topic!that!Marsalis!claims!is!
central!to!his!goals.!The!Kenton!band!traveled!to!schools!in!every!part!of!the!nation,!
giving!clinics!and!performances.!Michael!Breaux!described!to!me!the!inspiration!of!
meeting!the!Kenton!band!members!and!being!enthralled!by!their!performance,!and!
credits!it!with!being!one!of!the!key!moments!in!determining!the!course!of!his!life.29!
The!impact!of!the!Kenton!band!on!a!generation!of!jazz!musicians!is!well!
documented,!and!Kenton!clearly!deserves!a!place!in!any!comprehensive!history!of!
jazz.30!
! It!is!unclear!why!exactly!Marsalis!would!purposefully!exclude!such!an!
important!figure!in!jazz!history!(and!someone!whose!goals!seem!to!be!in!line!with!
his!own).!Some!have!suggested!a!racial!agenda,!although!this!does!not!seem!to!be!
the!case,!given!that!the!documentary!as!a!whole!seems!to!be!organized!around!the!
theme!of!jazz!as!a!multicultural!music!reflecting!the!unique!makeup!of!American!
society.!It!is!more!likely!that!Kenton!simply!did!not!fit!the!narrative!Marsalis!and!
Burns!constructed!for!this!time!period,!one!in!which!jazz!was!dying!and!being!
overtaken!by!rock!music.!A!significant!portion!of!this!final!chapter!in!the!
documentary,!in!fact,!is!dedicated!to!the!passing!of!Louis!Armstrong!and!Duke!
!
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Ellington,!an!unusual!choice!since!this!one!episode!covers!almost!as!many!years!as!
the!prior!nine.!Jazz!educator,!George!Colligan,!notes!that!at!this!point!the!
documentary!gets!“preachy,”!with!Marsalis!taking!center!stage!and!almost!single!
handedly!determining!the!future!of!jazz.31!
! The!other!major!issue!with!Marsalis’!canon!is!that!its!limited!scope!almost!
ensures!the!demise!of!jazz!as!a!relevant!art!form.!As!Alan!Ferber!stated!in!our!
interview,!“If!it!became!museum!music,!it!wouldn’t!last.!It!would!become!petrified,!
and!that!would!be!that.”32!New!works!must!continue!to!incorporate!outside!
influences!and!encourage!unique!musical!personalities!in!order!to!stay!current!and!
have!an!impact!with!new!audiences.!Alex!Stewart!notes!that!the!repertory!available!
to!big!bands!is!minimal!when!compared!to!the!classical!symphonic!canon,!and!
certainly!not!enough!to!sustain!the!ensemble!for!a!longer!period!of!time.33!Again,!
this!is!not!to!say!that!young!jazz!players!should!not!learn!classic!charts,!but!the!type!
of!historicism!Marsalis!has!employed!in!his!attempt!to!establish!a!canon!does!not!
allow!for!more!current!influences.!Perhaps!the!best!way!forward!is!to!eschew!metai
narratives!in!favor!of!microinarratives,!meaning!that!it!is!okay!to!trace!influences!
from!one!composer!or!musician!to!the!next,!but!there!are!many!such!lineages,!and!
choosing!one!to!the!exclusion!of!all!the!others!is!a!far!too!narrow!approach.!
The(Mingus(Big(Band:(A(Conundrum(
! The!Mingus!Big!Band!has!gained!significant!notoriety!in!recent!years,!and!its!
leader,!Sue!Mingus,!has!positioned!the!band!in!many!ways!as!the!antithesis!of!the!
Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center!Orchestra.!Many!big!band!fans!believe!that!the!band!has!
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brought!a!fresh!sound!into!the!genre,!and!the!group!has!won!both!the!Down(Beat!
Readers’!and!Critics’!Polls!a!number!of!times!in!the!past!two!decades.!The!irony!of!
the!Mingus!Big!Band!being!a!source!of!fresh!material!and!innovation!in!the!genre!is!
that!it!is!essentially!a!repertory!band.!As!Geoffrey!Himes!notes,!“No!other!dead!jazz!
composer!has!benefitted!more!from!repertory!bands.”34!While!the!Mingus!Big!Band!
is!fundamentally!a!repertory!band,!there!are!some!important!differences!in!the!way!
the!band!operates!and!the!way!the!music!is!handled!when!compared!to!the!average!
repertory!band.!Charles!Mingus!never!led!a!big!band!of!this!sort!during!his!lifetime,!
and!left!no!charts!for!this!instrumentation.!All!the!music!played!by!the!band!is!
arranged!by!its!members,!with!the!majority!of!the!arranging!work!done!by!Michael!
Phillip!Mossman.!Mossman!has!stated!that!he!tries!not!to!change!too!much!from!the!
small!and!medium!group!originals,!which!sometimes!necessitates!more!doubling!
than!would!normally!happen!in!a!big!band!score.!This!gives!the!opportunity!for!
players!to!create!tension!through!multiple!interpretations!of!a!line!all!being!played!
at!once,!which!fits!with!the!Mingus!aesthetic.!Mingus’!widow,!Sue!Mingus,!runs!the!
band!and!books!the!players.!Sue!Mingus!is!not!a!musician,!and!has!a!very!
unorthodox!management!style,!often!booking!players!who!do!not!match!styles!(and!
sometimes!do!not!get!along).!Some!of!the!musicians,!notably!Howard!Johnson,!a!
tuba!player!who!actually!played!with!Charles!Mingus!during!his!lifetime,!have!stated!
that!they!would!prefer!someone!with!more!musical!knowledge!take!control!of!the!
band.35!Alex!Stewart,!however,!believes!that!this!disjunct!and!chaotic!method!to!
booking!the!band!and!hiring!players!is!essential!to!the!sound!and!success!of!the!
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group.36!The!chaos!is!a!necessary!ingredient!to!keep!the!performers!on!edge,!which!
some!define!as!a!prerequisite!for!performing!Mingus’!music.!
! This!chaos!in!many!ways!allows!for!an!authenticity!of!expression!that!is!
absent!in!many!repertory!bands.!In!a!way,!each!band!member!adds!their!own!
unique!voice!to!the!already!unique!compositional!voice!of!Mingus.!Mingus’!
idiosyncrasies!are!what!keep!his!output!sounding!fresh!decades!later,!and!adding!
new!and!younger!voices!to!his!music!(many!of!whom!were!born!after!Mingus’!
death)!might!be!the!proper!way!of!updating!the!tunes!in!the!way!Stewart!suggested!
to!keep!orchestral!jazz!vital!and!relevant.!While!the!band!does!not!have!the!polished!
sound!of!the!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center!Orchestra,!this!quality!is!sacrificed!for!the!feeling!
of!immediacy,!which!may!be!the!principal!reason!the!band!elicits!such!a!strong!
response!from!listeners.!
! The!other!question!regarding!conservatism!and!the!Mingus!Big!Band!that!
deserves!attention!is!a!much!broader!issue!that!also!affects!classical!music:!is!the!
performance!of!avantigarde!music!from!the!past!immune!from!accusations!of!
conservatism?!Patrons!of!contemporary!classical!concerts!have!become!accustomed!
to!the!idea!of!“new”!music!as!more!of!a!genre!marker!than!an!indication!of!a!recently!
written!piece,!as!many!concerts!feature!new!music!that!is!more!than!a!century!old.!
In!many!ways,!this!does!a!disservice!to!the!many!great!living!composers!of!classical!
music,!much!in!the!same!way!as!focusing!primarily!on!the!jazz!greats!hinders!the!
creation!of!new!great!jazz!composers.!In!the!case!of!the!Mingus!Big!Band,!the!music!
they!play!is!that!of!an!outsider!not!as!accepted!by!the!jazz!establishment!as!
Ellington,!Basie,!or!Armstrong,!so!in!some!ways!it!remains!new.!The!full!
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participation!of!the!band’s!members,!as!arrangers!and!performers!maintaining!their!
own!unique!voice,!further!allows!this!music!to!retain!its!vitality!and!relevance.!How!
long!this!can!continue,!however,!is!uncertain.!
Differing(Approaches:(the(JLCO(and(Mingus(Big(Band’s(
Treatment(of(Mingus’(“Dizzy(Moods”!
Members!from!the!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center!Orchestra,!led!by!Wynton!Marsalis,!
performed!the!music!of!Mingus!in!celebration!of!his!80th!birthday!on!November!10,!
2001,!at!a!children’s!concert!with!Sue!Mingus!in!attendance.!Dan!Ouellette!describes!
the!chaos!section!of!“The!Shoes!of!the!Fisherman’s!Wife”!as!being!“rendered!with!
kid!gloves,!unlike!Mingus’!own!barreling!outbursts.”37!The!children!were!apparently!
fidgety!during!the!concert,!a!fact!that!Marsalis!apparently!associated!with!the!avanti
garde!nature!of!the!music,!but!Ouellette!seems!to!suggest!might!be!because!of!the!
inauthentic!performance.!Regardless!of!what!caused!the!children’s!fidgeting,!the!
suggestion!of!a!lack!of!authenticity!is!echoed!by!James!Hale!in!a!review!of!the!Jazz!at!
Lincoln!Center!Orchestra’s!2005!album,!Don’t(Be(Afraid…(The(Music(of(Charles(
Mingus.!Hale!compared!the!performances!to!a!Madame!Tussaud!wax!figure,!noting!
that!this!sort!of!museum!treatment!and!careful!planning!does!not!work!with!the!
spirit!of!Mingus’!music.!Hale!continues:!
“Their!handclaps,!yelps!and!precision!tempo!shifts!sound!premeditated.!
Their!collective!weight!keeps!them!flatfooted!when!the!music!demands!
butterfly!moves.!And,!above!all,!they!lack!the!danger!of!implosion!that!
Mingus’!music!must!carry!in!its!DNA!to!sound!authentic.!Trombonist!Ron!
Westray’s!arrangements!often!go!the!other!direction,!reducing!‘Black!Saint!
and!the!Sinner!Lady’!to!a!pleasant!suite!with!a!series!of!tight!solos!with!none!
of!the!passion!and!pain!of!its!source!material.!Worse,!‘Don’t!Be!Afraid,!the!
Clown’s!Afraid!Too’!sounds!like!slick!formulaic!big!band!music.”38!
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Since!these!two!bands!are!often!put!at!odds!with!one!another,!it!is!often!overlooked!
that!many!of!the!JLCO!members!have!also!played!extensively!with!the!Mingus!Big!
Band,!including!some!of!the!members!on!this!recording.!The!difference!appears!to!
be!in!the!approaches!of!the!leaders.!Marsalis’!tightly!controlled!band!is!certainly!
more!polished,!but!this!approach!drains!Mingus’!music!of!its!vitality.!A!comparison!
of!the!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center!Orchestra!and!Mingus!Big!Band’s!handling!of!the!same!
tune!will!illuminate!the!vastly!different!approaches!taken!by!the!two!ensembles.!
! Charles!Mingus!recorded!“Dizzy!Moods”!in!1957!with!his!sextet,!consisting!of!
himself,!Shafi!Hadi!on!alto!and!tenor!saxophone,!Clarence!Shaw!on!trumpet,!Jimmy!
Knepper!on!trombone,!Bill!Triglia!on!piano,!and!Dannie!Richmond!on!drums.!It!
appears!on!the!album,!Tijuana(Moods,!which!was!released!in!1962.!The!tune’s!name!
comes!from!the!fact!that!the!changes!are!based!on!the!Dizzy!Gillespie!tune,!“Woodyn!
You.”!Rather!than!simply!starting!the!tune,!Mingus!employs!an!introduction!that!
features!all!of!the!players!in!the!sextet.!The!three!horns!begin!with!a!standard!jazz!
figure!that!is!made!unusual!by!the!voicing!and!the!style!of!performance.!The!chords!
are!all!voiced!as!root,! 5,!and!11,!leaving!out!the!3rd!and!7th!of!the!chord!(see!fig.(2).!
b 4 > >#œ > > > nœ > > > > > >
Tenor Saxophone & b b 4 #œ œ œ œ œ œ #œ œ œ œ œ œ nœ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ nœ ˙ ™
° bb 4 nœ >œ œ >œ œ >œ œ œ >œ œ >œ œ >œ œ œ >œ œ >œ bœ >œ œ >œ bœ >œ ˙ ™
Trumpet in Bb & b 4
? b b 44 nœ >œ œ >œ œ >œ œ œ >œ œ >œ œ >œ œ œ >œ œ >œ œ >œ œ >œ œ >œ ˙™
Trombone
¢ bbb
!
fig.(2:(opening(measures(of(“Dizzy(Moods”(
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A!more!traditional!approach!would!have!been!to!simplify!the!chords,!but!this!
voicing!conveys!Mingus’!complex!harmonic!language!within!the!limitations!of!three!
pitches.!In!addition!to!the!nonitraditional!voicing,!the!horns!play!this!figure!straight,!
with!heavy!accents!on!the!upbeats.!This!is!followed!by!a!four!bar!bass!solo!in!which!
Mingus!swings!the!eighths,!but!maintains!the!upbeat!accents!to!provide!a!transition!
to!a!more!standard!swing!feel.!A!four!bar!drum!solo!and!four!bar!piano!solo!that!is!
played!as!if!it!were!a!solo!break!finish!the!introduction.!
! The!form!of!the!tune!is!AABA,!but!as!expected,!Mingus!includes!some!
surprises.!The!A!section!is!a!cool,!bluesy!melody!played!in!unison!by!the!horns!(save!
for!the!last!note,!which!breaks!into!a!chord).!On!the!repeat,!rather!than!play!the!
melody,!Mingus!instructs!the!horns!to!improvise!collectively.!This!room!for!both!
conversation!and!confrontation!in!the!music!is!an!important!aspect!of!Mingus’!work.!
The!B!section!is!somewhat!of!an!offikilter!waltz.!The!use!of!a!hocket!technique!in!
combination!with!purposefully!loose!rhythmic!playing!provides!a!fresh!contrast!
with!the!tight,!bluesy!A!section.!Even!the!drummer!plays!with!the!time,!thwarting!
our!musical!expectations!given!the!content!of!the!A!section.!It!is!apparent!that!this!
loose!playing!is!on!purpose,!as!the!B(sections!during!the!solos!are!rhythmically!tight.!
At!the!end!of!the!solos,!rather!than!bring!back!the!head!directly,!Mingus!chooses!to!
use!the!horn!intro,!but!has!the!horns!play!it!several!times!and!twice!as!fast.!
! The!handling!of!this!tune!by!the!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center!Orchestra!and!Mingus!
Big!Band!is!quite!different,!and!reveals!differing!attitudes!toward!the!source!
material.!The!Mingus!Big!Band!recorded!the!tune!in!1998!on!their!Que(Viva(Mingus!!
album,!while!the!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center!Orchestra!recorded!it!seven!years!later!for!
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their!Mingus!tribute!album.!In!the!introduction,!the!JLCO!chooses!to!swing!the!horn!
figures!and!remove!the!accents.!This,!in!combination!with!the!harmony!being!filled!
in,!essentially!normalizes!this!passage!and!gives!it!a!more!traditional!sound.!
Westray!even!adds!horns!to!the!original!Mingus!bass!solo,!but!again!the!accents!are!!
JLCO
b b 4 œ œ nœ œ bœ œ nœ œ œ œ nœ bœ nœ œ ™™ œœj œœ ™™ œœj Ów œ nœ œ
& b b b 4 bœœœœœœnn œœœœœœbbnœœœœœœnn œœœœœœ bbœœœœœœnn œœœ bbnœœœ nn œœœ bbœœœ ™™ œœ œœ ™™ œœ ww
w
. > .
Mingus Original
œ >œ n œ >œ b œ >œ n œ >œ œ >œ n œ >œ b œ >œ n œ >œ œ
? bb4 4 œ ˙™~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
bbb ~~ w
!
fig.(3:(JLCO’s(orchestration(of(Mingus’(introductory(bass(solo(
left!out,!and!the!line!is!modified!to!become!a!somewhat!hackneyed!big!band!figure!
(see!fig.(3).!Westray!does!incorporate!the!horn!voicings!from!the!beginning!to!give!
the!introduction!coherence,!but!the!predictability!of!this!figure!undermines!the!
strangeness!of!the!original!introduction.!Instead!of!the!four!bar!piano!break!at!the!
end!of!the!introduction,!the!JLCO!plays!the!opening!eighth!notes!of!the!melody!in!a!
hemiola!over!three!bars,!followed!by!three!random!notes!divided!among!the!
sections.!One!would!assume!this!final!bar!is!to!try!to!recapture!some!of!the!
peculiarity!that!is!integral!to!Mingus,!but!it!is!so!obviously!planned!and!cleanly!
executed!that!it!falls!flat.!
! The!Mingus!Big!Band!opens!the!tune!with!a!metrically!ambiguous!Latin!
groove.!This!is!quite!a!change!to!the!introduction,!but!it!sets!up!the!B!section,!which!
has!been!altered!from!odd!waltz!to!odd!Latin!groove.!The!rhythm!is!tight!in!the!B!
section,!but!increased!hocketing!helps!maintain!the!chaotic!nature!of!the!section.!
The!strangeness!of!this!groove!is!certainly!in!the!spirit!of!Mingus,!and!it!was!no!
doubt!added!because!the!album,!Que(Viva(Mingus!,!is!intended!to!be!a!celebration!of!
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Mingus’!exploration!of!Latin!music.!The!presence!of!the!Latin!groove!in!the!
beginning!and!in!the!B!section!helps!unify!the!arrangement,!rather!than!having!a!
new!element!added!that!sounds!out!of!place.!In!the!JLCO!version,!Westray!adds!
some!fauxiodd!figures!to!the!end!of!the!tune!that!are!not!only!extraneous,!the!forced!
nature!of!the!figures!is!almost!patronizing!to!the!listener.!After!the!opening!Latin!
groove!in!the!MBB!arrangement,!the!horns!play!the!intro!figure,!but!twice!as!fast,!
like!the!return!in!the!original.!They!also!only!use!three!horns,!keeping!the!voicing!
the!same!as!the!original.!The!bass!solo!is!extended!to!eight!bars,!and!John!Benitez!
improvises!his!own!solo!rather!than!copying!the!original.!The!JLCO’s!rendition!of!the!
B!section!is!closer!to!the!original,!but!is!so!tightly!controlled!that!the!effect!of!the!
section!is!lost.!The!hocketing!in!the!melody!is!changed!so!that!the!primary!melody!
comes!in!on!the!downbeat!rather!than!the!upbeat,!and!the!trombones!play!upbeats!
to!simulate!the!original!effect.!However,!with!the!melody!line!normalized,!the!almost!
out!of!control!original!is!turned!into!a!standard!jazz!waltz.!
The!solo!sections!are!handled!in!a!traditional!format!by!the!JLCO,!with!
soloists!playing!over!the!form.!Westray!includes!background!figures,!which!are!to!be!
expected!in!a!big!band!chart!–!after!all,!if!most!of!the!players!are!barely!used,!there!is!
no!point!in!a!chart!being!written/arranged!for!a!large!ensemble.!While!there!is!
nothing!wrong!with!doing!this,!Westray’s!background!figures!are!far!too!traditional!
for!Mingus!and!sound!out!of!place.!The!Mingus!Big!Band’s!arrangement!(this!
particular!tune!is!a!collective!arrangement)!also!includes!backgrounds!during!the!
piano!solo,!but!they!are!short!and!quite!simple.!These!backgrounds!do!not!violate!
the!spirit!of!Mingus’!music,!but!they!do!not!add!any!interest!to!the!arrangement!
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either.!The!MBB’s!handling!of!the!solo!section!is!quite!different,!alternating!between!
doubleitime!swing,!the!Latin!groove,!and!the!original!tempo.!This!holds!the!
listener’s!interest,!and!is!naturally!the!part!of!the!tune!where!it!is!perfectly!
reasonable!to!expect!the!band!to!allow!room!for!their!own!voices.!
Perhaps!the!largest!and!most!significant!difference!in!the!handling!of!“Dizzy!
Moods”!is!in!the!A!section.!The!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center!Orchestra!swings!the!eighths!
much!harder!than!in!the!original,!almost!resulting!in!a!triplet!feel.!The!coolness!of!
the!melody!from!the!original!becomes!almost!too!snappy.!This!style!of!swing!was!
more!popular!in!the!1930s!and!1940s,!and!given!that!the!JLCO!plays!more!Duke!
Ellington!than!anything!else,!it!is!possible!that!this!older!style!of!swinging!has!
become!the!standard!for!the!ensemble.!The!MBB’s!A!section!is!swung!in!the!style!of!
the!original,!and!on!the!repeat!they!forgo!collective!improvisation!for!call!and!
response!figures!between!the!trumpets!and!trombones.!This!is!probably!a!practical!
choice,!since!collective!improvisation!would!sound!cacophonous!here!and!violate!
the!laid!back!spirit!of!the!section.!That!said,!it!does!normalize!the!section!and!
diminishes!the!eccentricity!of!the!original.!When!the!JLCO!repeats!the!A!section,!the!
band!plays!the!melody!again!while!Wynton!Marsalis!solos!over!it.!This!would!be!a!
perfectly!acceptable!solution,!but!Marsalis!blows!over!every!occurrence!of!the!A!
section!for!the!rest!of!the!tune.!Not!only!does!this!replace!the!musical!conversation!
and!confrontation!that!is!so!important!to!Mingus’!music!with!monologue,!but!at!a!
certain!point!a!listener!would!be!right!to!wonder!who’s!tune!this!really!is.!Marsalis!
remakes!Mingus’!music!in!his!own!image,!which!somewhat!ironically!is!giving!his!
own!authentic!interpretation!of!the!music.!However,!it!violates!the!preservation!he!
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supposedly!seeks,!whitewashing!Mingus’!music!of!its!confrontational!style.!The!
Mingus!Big!Band’s!treatment!includes!more!drastic!changes,!but!all!are!done!with!
the!spirit!of!the!original!in!mind,!and!in!this!way!they!are!able!to!add!their!own!
voices!to!the!music!without!simply!recreating!it.!
Balancing(Innovation(with(Preservation(
! So!how!should!bandleaders,!composers,!and!players!balance!the!preservation!
of!the!big!band!tradition!with!continuing!to!push!the!ensemble!forward?!Most!agree!
that!there!should!be!some!element!of!both,!but!there!is!a!wide!spectrum!of!opinions!
pertaining!to!exactly!what!that!balance!should!be.!At!the!center!of!that!spectrum!is!
Carla!Bley,!who!argues!that!the!balance!between!preservation!and!innovation!is!
essential,!if!difficult.!In!an!email!to!me,!Bley!made!a!comparison!to!the!classical!
world,!noting!that!some!of!the!best!orchestras!program!both!canonic!repertoire!and!
new!music.39!Several!classical!orchestras!have!used!this!technique!of!programming!
both!new!and!old!music!together!to!great!success,!most!notably!the!Los!Angeles!
Philharmonic!and!the!San!Francisco!Symphony.!This!approach!is!one!used!by!many!
university!ensembles,!which!is!also!useful!in!teaching!students!the!music!of!the!
tradition.!Frank!Vaganée,!leader!of!the!Brussels!Jazz!Orchestra,!told!me!that!this!
study!of!earlier!big!band!charts!by!students!helps!better!prepare!them!for!the!
performance!of!contemporary!big!band!music.40!Tom!Kubis!agreed,!adding!that!if!
students!are!considering!working!in!a!studio!environment!at!any!point,!
comprehensive!knowledge!of!prior!styles!is!a!necessity.41!
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! At!the!other!end!of!the!spectrum,!Heinrich!von!Kalnein,!one!of!the!leaders!of!
the!ofteniexperimental!Jazz!Bigband!Graz,!stated!in!an!email!that!he!sees!no!reason!
for!maintaining!traditions!beyond!jazz!education,!arguing!that!as!long!as!something!
valid!is!created,!innovation!is!the!most!important!part!of!any!tradition.42!How!one!
would!determine!whether!a!creation!is!valid!or!not!is!unclear.!Kalnein’s!opinion!
might!seem!a!bit!harsh,!but!he!certainly!does!not!mean!for!all!learning!of!traditional!
practices!to!be!removed!from!jazz,!but!rather!for!innovation!to!be!the!primary!focus!
outside!of!jazz!education.!Many!of!his!fellow!Europeans!have!similar!opinions!
regarding!the!preservation!of!tradition,!and!tend!to!produce!music!of!a!more!
experimental!nature.!Wynton!Marsalis!points!out,!however,!that!there!is!more!than!
one!path!to!innovation:!
“Someone!can!be!creative!inside!or!outside!the!mainstream!of!a!tradition.!
Inside,!you!create!new!ways!to!do!existing!things!better.!Outside,!you!create!a!
new!world.!Both!options!can!be!innovative.”43!
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This!approach!allows!for!a!multitude!of!musical!personalities!to!approach!the!music!
with!their!own!particular!leanings,!although!it!should!be!noted!that!Marsalis!has!
often!been!critical!of!those!outside!the!mainstream.!
! At!a!professional!level,!perhaps!a!good!balance!between!innovation!and!
preservation!is!the!approach!outlined!to!me!by!Nate!Kimball,!in!which!the!composer!
openly!discusses!his!or!her!influences!with!the!audience.!If!a!particular!tune!is!
specifically!influenced!by!a!previous!jazz!composer,!the!audience!gets!to!hear!a!new!
composition!while!planting!seeds!of!interest!in!the!older!composers.44!Ralph!Lalama!
stated!in!our!interview!that!all!the!best!composers!and!arrangers!have!a!solid!
foundation!built!upon!their!predecessors:!
!
99!
“If!you!listen!to!any!great!jazz!arranging,!they’re!influenced!by!the!past.!It!
gives!the!music!a!core!that!you!can!add!to.!A!tree!has!a!trunk;!a!house!has!a!
foundation.!You!don’t!hang!your!house!on!a!tree!limb,!you!dig!into!the!
ground!and!build!it!up.!It’s!the!same!in!music.”45!
!
This!type!of!innovation!on!a!foundation!keeps!the!music!fresh!while!acknowledging!
influences!and!maintaining!a!connection!with!the!tradition.!However,!it!is!important!
not!to!merely!ape!earlier!composers!and!styles.!Alan!Ferber!argued!that!new!
relevant!music!keeps!the!ensemble!relevant,!and!is!essential!to!its!survival.46!
Although!he!does!not!go!so!far!as!to!directly!make!this!point,!his!statement!also!
suggests!something!that!is!not!typically!considered!about!the!future!of!the!big!band:!
not!all!of!the!music!written!for!the!ensemble!has!to!be!jazz!as!traditionally!defined.!
In!fact,!many!of!the!currently!active!big!band!composers!write!music!that!would!
hardly!be!considered!jazz!if!it!were!not!performed!by!an!ensemble!so!tightly!linked!
with!the!jazz!tradition.!
! Big!Band!music,!and!jazz!in!general,!has!arrived!at!a!point!in!its!history!when!
it!is!important!to!make!at!least!preliminary!decisions!about!what!music!from!earlier!
years!should!be!kept!alive!in!performances,!and!what!approach!would!best!serve!the!
music.!Given!the!emphasis!on!individual!musical!personalities!(both!in!
improvisation!and!composition)!essential!to!the!immediacy!that!grants!power!to!the!
art!form,!simply!recreating!the!sounds!of!earlier!bands!is!certain!to!drain!the!music!
of!its!vitality.!Tunes!must!be!updated!to!maintain!their!relevance!and!perhaps!even!
provide!a!point!of!entry!for!new!listeners!to!discover!classic!arrangements!and!
compositions.!New!music!must!also!be!given!an!appropriate!chance!to!thrive.!The!
various!outside!influences!available!to!today’s!composers!should!be!absorbed!into!
the!works!written!for!big!band,!so!that!the!ensemble!may!move!beyond!its!ties!with!
!
100!
1930s!and!1940s!swing!music.!In!the!following!chapter,!we!will!take!a!closer!look!at!
some!of!the!musical!personalities!of!several!contemporary!big!band!composers!and!
observe!how!each!incorporates!influences!from!both!inside!and!outside!of!jazz!to!
create!his!or!her!own!unique!voice.!
!
101!
CHAPTER(5:(SIX(FACES(OF(THE(CONTEMPORARY(BIG(BAND(SCENE(
! Speaking!with!optimism!about!the!current!big!band!scene,!Alan!Ferber!noted!
to!me!that!there!is!a!greater!diversity!of!approaches!to!writing!for!the!ensemble,!and!
he!sees!a!good!possibility!of!this!diversity!continuing!to!increase.1!With!these!new!
voices!and!new!approaches!to!the!big!band!format,!the!flexibility!and!range!of!the!
ensemble!is!not!only!revealed,!but!also!further!expanded.!In!our!interview,!Dave!
Pietro!observed!that!a!big!band!can!create!large!orchestral!sounds,!but!also!is!small!
enough!to!allow!for!individual!expression,!both!in!improvisation!and!interpreting!
written!parts.!Pietro!praised!this!“combination!of!the!individual!and!the!society!all!
in!one.”2!The!everiincreasing!number!of!instrument!doubles!available!also!adds!to!
the!flexibility!of!the!ensemble,!giving!it!a!more!varied!timbral!palette!than!any!group!
of!its!size.!A!number!of!contemporary!big!band!composers!have!continued!to!push!
the!timbral!and!stylistic!variety!by!incorporating!techniques!and!sounds!from!many!
different!genres!of!music,!including!rock,!avantigarde!classical,!pop,!electronic,!and!
film.!This!chapter!will!seek!to!offer!a!snapshot!of!six!contemporary!big!band!
composers!through!the!exploration!of!one!composition!from!each.!The!six!
composers!included!are!Carla!Bley,!Maria!Schneider,!Jim!McNeely,!Gordon!Goodwin,!
Alan!Ferber,!and!Darcy!James!Argue.!They!have!been!chosen!to!represent!a!number!
of!current!approaches!to!writing!for!the!ensemble.!Given!that!there!is!no!method!to!
impartially!choose!six!individuals!to!represent!many,!one!should!not!view!this!list!as!
totalizing,!but!rather!as!a!sample!of!some!of!the!current!active!composers!for!the!
ensemble.!It!is!intended!to!serve!as!a!tasting!of!the!current!scene,!designed!to!
!
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inspire!hunger!in!the!reader!for!more!of!the!sonic!flavors!offered!by!the!modern!big!
band.!
Carla(Bley((b.(1936)(
! Carla!Bley!is!one!of!several!jazz!performers!and!composers!who!increased!
the!visibility!of!women!in!jazz!in!the!1960s!and!1970s.!Although!women!had!been!a!
part!of!jazz!from!its!inception,!the!majority!were!involved!as!singers,!and!there!were!
very!few!who!were!accepted!as!instrumentalists!and!composers!(Mary!Lou!Williams!
being!one!of!the!few!notable!exceptions).!Bley’s!style!is!experimental!and!at!times!
confrontational.!Her!early!works,!in!particular,!utilize!a!large!amount!of!dissonance!
and!abrupt!meter!changes.!She!became!involved!with!the!big!band!(as!well!as!other!
large!ensemble!formats)!relatively!early!in!her!career,!and!founded!the!Jazz!
Composers’!Orchestra!in!the!late!1960s!along!with!her!second!husband,!Michael!
Mantler.!The!Jazz!Composers’!Orchestra!provided!an!outlet!for!avantigarde!
composers!to!work!with!a!large!ensemble!at!a!time!when!there!were!few!working!
big!bands.!
After!the!Jazz!Composers’!Orchestra!disbanded!in!1975,!Bley!only!worked!in!
the!big!band!format!occasionally!until!the!1990s.!Much!of!her!work!since!then!has!
been!for!the!ensemble,!and!her!style!has!evolved!to!be!more!controlled!and!less!
brash.!She!has!stated!that!in!her!early!work!she!was!simply!trying!out!every!
possibility,!and!after!seeing!what!works!for!her!she!has!a!much!clearer!sense!of!
what!types!of!musical!ideas!to!use.3!Bley!has!also!admitted!that!her!personality!has!
softened!as!a!result!of!regular!work!with!a!big!band.!At!one!point,!she!even!jokingly!
!
103!
claimed!that!she!became!“Countess!Basie.”4!Jazz!scholar,!Lewis!Porter,!notes!that!
Bley’s!strengths!include!a!natural!rhythmic!flow!(despite!odd!meters!and!phrase!
lengths),!surprising!harmonies,!and!the!ability!to!transform!a!short!motive!into!an!
engaging!theme.5!Some!of!Bley’s!techniques!seem!to!be!derived!from!classical!
practices,!but!she!maintains!that!she!has!had!no!formal!training!and!little!knowledge!
of!music!outside!of!those!she!has!worked!with!or!heard!directly.6!She!also!does!not!
consider!herself!a!jazz!musician,!but!rather!a!composer!who!writes!for!jazz!
musicians.7!Although!she!rarely!solos!on!her!albums,!it!is!quite!clear!that!she!is!a!
capable!improviser.!She!has!stated!that!soloists!who!can!maintain!an!audience’s!
attention!over!an!extended!period!of!time!are!rare,!which!is!why!she!prefers!a!
certain!amount!of!prewritten!music!to!keep!a!tune!going.!This!is!perhaps!the!reason!
for!her!infrequent!solos!and!refusal!to!call!herself!a!jazz!musician.!
“Beads”!(1996)!
! The!1994!tune,!“Beads,”!first!recorded!on!the!album,!The(Carla(Bley(Big(Band(
Goes(to(Church,!provides!an!example!of!Bley’s!mature!style.!The!form!of!the!tune!is!
essentially!AiBiA,!with!each!24!bar!A!section!containing!two!subsections.!The!
opening!melody!is!built!from!a!three!bar!motive!(see!fig.(4)!that!is!then!repeated!
fig.(4:(“Beads”(opening(motive!
twice,!transposed!a!whole!step!higher!each!time.!The!line!suggests!a!diminished!
scale!(octatonic!in!classical!nomenclature),!but!never!allows!a!single!diminished!
!
104!
scale!to!be!completed!due!to!the!half!step!relationship!between!the!C#!at!the!end!of!
the!first!iteration!and!the!D!at!the!beginning!of!the!second.!The!notes!of!the!melody!
do!not!correspond!to!the!underlying!harmonies!in!any!predictable!way,!sometimes!
falling!within!the!harmony!while!at!other!times!not.!With!its!two!against!three!
rhythmic!design,!this!slinking!melodic!figure!would!seem!to!undermine!both!the!
harmony!and!rhythm,!but!its!internal!coherence!and!occasional!alignment!with!the!
harmony!provide!an!ebbing!tension!that!drives!the!music!forward.!The!b!section!
melody!is!also!derived!from!the!six!note!motive,!but!is!only!repeated!twice!before!
making!a!final!four!bar!descent.!
!!!!!!!!!!!!A!
a!
F## Eb# F## B# Ab# B# Bb# G# Bb# A#
# ↓m3# ↑m3# ↑P4# ↓m3# ↑m3# ↓m2# ↓m3# ↑m3# ↓m2#
#
b!
D# B# D# G# E# G# F## Eb# C# B#
# ↓m3# ↑m3# ↑P4# ↓m3# ↑m3# ↓m2# ↓m3# ↓m3# ↓m2#
!
!!!!!!!!!!!!B!
Bb# A# D# Db# C# F# E# Eb# Ab# G#
# ↓m2# ↑P4# ↓m2# ↓m2# ↑P4# ↓m2# ↓m2# ↑P4# ↓m2#
!
!!!!!!!!!!!!A'!
a!
D# B# D# G# E# G# F## Eb# F## B#
# ↓m3# ↑m3# ↑P4# ↓m3# ↑m3# ↓m2# ↓m3# ↑m3# ↑P4#
#
b!
Bb# G# Bb# Eb# C# Eb# Ab# F# D# Db#
# ↓m3# ↑m3# ↑P4# ↓m3# ↑m3# ↑P4# ↓m3# ↓m3# ↓m2#
# !
fig.(5:(chord(root(relationships(in(“Beads”(
!
105!
The!underlying!harmony!in!the!A!sections!consists!entirely!of!dominant!
seventh!chords!with!a!lowered!fifth.!If!this!occurrence!of!the!tritone!in!every!chord!
were!not!strange!enough,!the!relationship!between!almost!all!of!the!chords!is!either!
mediant!or!chromatic!(see!fig.(5).!In!order!to!create!some!sense!of!coherence,!Bley!
once!again!employs!repetition,!with!the!a!and!b!sections!within!each!A!section!
essentially!utilizing!the!same!progression,!only!transposed!down!a!major!third!(with!
the!exception!of!the!penultimate!chord!and!two!fourths!in!the!closing!section).!The!
descending!third!motion!between!these!sections!creates!an!overall!descent!of!an!
augmented!fifth.!Additionally,!the!a!and!b!melodies!start!an!augmented!fifth!apart!
(C/G#!and!B/G).!This!creates!a!structural!contrast!with!the!overwhelming!amount!
of!lowered!fifths!present!in!the!individual!chords.!
! The!B!section!provides!both!melodic!and!harmonic!contrast!(see!fig.(6).!This!
section!contains!the!only!major!seventh!chords!in!the!entire!tune,!save!for!the!final!
fig.(6:(“Beads”(B(section(melody(
!
106!
chord.!That!being!said,!there!are!still!many!lowered!fifths!present.!This!balance!
keeps!the!aesthetic!of!the!tune!unified!while!providing!contrast.!The!flowing!eighth!
note!lines!act!to!counter!the!slinking!A!section!melody.!The!diminished!scale!
suggested!by!the!A!section!motive!is!fully!present!here,!used!to!accompany!the!
lingering!b5!chords.!For!the!remaining!major!seventh!chords,!Bley!uses!a!mixture!of!
major!scales!and!Lydian!modes.!Given!that!each!Lydian!mode!used!either!starts!or!
ends!on!the!second!degree!(depending!on!whether!the!line!is!ascending!or!
descending),!and!starts!or!ends!on!the!raised!fourth!degree,!these!passages!sound!
tonally!ambiguous.!If!the!lowest!note!of!each!scale!were!taken!as!the!root,!one!could!
alternately!interpret!the!scales!as!Locrian!mode,!or!even!as!the!altered!scale!with!
the!missing!fourth!added.!Bley!is!able!to!utilize!just!enough!of!this!ambiguity!
without!the!music!becoming!incoherent.!The!final!chromatic!descent!in!the!harmony!
of!the!B!section!coupled!with!the!rising!melody!line!suggests!an!approaching!climax.!
This!suggestion!would!seem!to!be!confirmed!by!the!presence!of!the!altered!chord!(a!
dominant!seventh!chord!with!added!b9,!#9,!#11,!and!b13)!at!the!end,!a!chord!that!is!
strongly!dominant.!Bley!voices!these!final!four!measures!with!trumpets!screaming,!
only!to!drop!the!melody!two!octaves!and!return!to!the!A!section!motive.!The!effect!
of!this!sidestepped!climax!is!one!of!surprise,!but!not!disappointment.!Bley!has!in!
many!ways!prepared!the!listener!for!the!unexpected!through!subtle!sleight!of!hand!
throughout!the!tune.!
! Bley!incorporates!the!full!instrumentation!of!the!big!band!to!provide!counter!
melodies!and!keep!the!solo!sections!moving!forward.!The!saxophones!have!the!
melody!throughout!the!head,!and!Bley!utilizes!short!motives!in!the!brass!similar!to!
!
107!
the!construction!of!the!primary!melody,!but!at!half!the!speed!and!in!conjunction!
with!the!chord!changes.!This!increases!the!apparent!disconnect!between!the!melody!
and!the!accompanying!chords.!At!the!end!of!both!solos,!the!remaining!horns!enter!
with!punchy!background!figures!to!spur!the!soloist!on.!This!may!be!Bley’s!way!of!
reconciling!the!need!for!solos!without!completely!leaving!the!pacing!up!to!the!
soloist.!After!a!brief!interlude!between!the!two!solos,!consisting!of!more!punchy!
figures!and!a!chordal!section!built!from!motivic!cells!similar!to!the!ones!used!in!the!
head,!the!trumpet!soloist!seems!to!preemptively!respond!to!the!punchy!background!
figures!by!beginning!his!solo!with!isolated!staccato!jabs.!Following!the!trumpet!solo,!
Bley!utilizes!more!punchy!figures!in!sequence!to!finally!circle!back!to!the!head.!
“Beads”!provides!an!apt!example!of!Bley’s!compositional!style:!tightly!controlled,!yet!
still!transgressive.!
Maria(Schneider((b.(1960)!
! Perhaps!one!of!the!most!well!known!figures!in!the!current!big!band!scene!is!
Maria!Schneider.!After!completing!a!degree!in!theory!and!composition!from!the!
University!of!Minnesota!and!a!Master’s!from!the!Eastman!School!of!Music,!Schneider!
was!hired!as!a!copyist!for!Gil!Evans.!Evans!was!a!master!orchestrator!and!often!used!
instruments!that!are!not!often!present!in!jazz,!such!as!the!French!horn!and!tuba.!He!
is!best!known!for!his!work!with!Miles!Davis,!first!in!the!late!1940s!on!what!became!
known!as!The(Birth(of(the(Cool,!and!then!again!on!a!series!of!albums!in!the!late!
1950s!and!early!1960s,!including!Miles(Ahead,!Porgy(and(Bess,!and!Sketches(of(Spain.!
Schneider!also!studied!with!Bob!Brookmeyer,!then!composer!in!residence!for!The!
!
108!
Vanguard!Jazz!Orchestra!and!Professor!at!New!England!Conservatory.!Both!mentors!
encouraged!Schneider!to!express!her!own!style!and!disregard!conventions.!
According!to!Schneider,!Brookmeyer!helped!her!move!past!the!typical!jazz!template,!
convincing!her!that!by!using!it!she!was!relinquishing!control!over!her!own!music.!
Over!time,!much!of!Schneider’s!music!has!come!to!embrace!smooth!orchestral!
textures!and!mostly!consonant!sounds.!David!Hajdu!noted!that!after!attending!a!
performance!of!hers!in!1994!with!Bob!Brookmeyer,!he!was!asked!his!opinion!of!the!
music.!He!noted!that!it!was!“much!more!than!beautiful,”!(emphasis!in!original)!to!
which!Brookmeyer!responded,!“Isn’t!beautiful!enough!for!you?”9!Hajdu!goes!on!to!
articulate!a!point!that!many!have!noted!about!Schneider’s!music:!creating!
something!new!and!fresh!does!not!necessarily!mean!that!it!has!to!be!avantigarde.!!
“The!Pretty!Road”!(2007)!
! “The!Pretty!Road,”!from!Schneider’s!2008!album,!Sky(Blue,!showcases!her!
compositional!style.!!Like!many!of!Schneider’s!works,!the!piece!is!programmatic!and!
does!not!contain!the!stylistic!markers!of!jazz.!Schneider!does!not!seem!to!be!
concerned!with!typical!jazz!performance!practices,!including!trochaic!eighth!notes,!
multiple!solo!sections,!and!standard!forms.!In!fact,!since!the!2000!album,!Days(of(
Wine(and(Roses,!she!dropped!the!term!“jazz”!from!the!name!of!her!group,!and!it!is!
now!simply!known!as!the!Maria!Schneider!Orchestra.!Schneider!has!said!that!she!
does!not!want!her!band!to!sound!like!a!traditional!big!band!because!while!the!
traditional!music!is!powerful!and!fun,!she!feels!that!it!lacks!more!nuanced!
expression.10!However,!she!does!borrow!one!convention!from!earlier!big!bands,!
!
109!
which!is!the!use!of!a!wordless!vocal!line.!This!was!a!popular!device!used!frequently!
in!the!Ellington!band,!but!she!often!doubles!the!vocal!line!with!accordion,!an!
instrument!not!often!seen!in!current!jazz,!to!create!an!entirely!different!timbre.!
! The!piece!is!about!a!memory!from!Schneider’s!childhood!growing!up!in!
Minnesota:!
“[The]!song!transported!me!back!to!our!family!station!wagon,!driving!home!
on!any!of!many!nights!on!a!flat,!twoilane,!corn!and!beanilined!highway!from!
a!country!restaurant!five!miles!outside!of!Windom,!Minnesota.!Somehow!this!
tune!conjured!up!the!excitement!of!approaching!town!with!Dad!at!the!wheel,!
who,!if!convinced!by!his!three!begging!daughters,!would!take!an!alternate!
route!into!town.!This!alternate!road!landed!us!on!a!hill!(a!word!used!liberally!
here)!that!overlooked!all!the!sparkly!lights!of!Windom.!We!named!it!The!
Pretty!Road!(with!an!emphasis!on!‘Pretty’).!In!those!moments!I!secretly!
dubbed!Windom!the!most!beautiful,!magical!place!on!earth.!There’s!a!wide!
gap!between!the!place!I!see!now!when!I!stop!at!The!Pretty!Road!and!my!
distant!but!colorful!memories.!I’m!not!sure!I’d!even!qualify!it!as!a!hill!
anymore.!They!say!that!the!view!from!The!Pretty!Road!changed!with!the!
trees!that!now!block!the!view.!I!feel!the!hill!somehow!shrank.!But!whether!
the!geological!shift!is!based!in!reality!or!perception,!I!remember!it!as!hearti
stoppingly!spectacular.”11!
!
The!piece!is!really!about!a!feeling!in!time!and!recapturing!the!wonder!of!a!youthful!
gaze!more!so!than!it!is!an!exact!recollection!of!events.!She!also!allows!for!others!in!
the!band,!particularly!trumpet!soloist!Ingrid!Jensen,!to!put!their!memories!into!the!
piece!as!well,!and!hopes!that!the!sounds!will!evoke!similar!feelings!contained!in!
memories!of!the!listener.!
! One!of!the!most!unique!features!of!“The!Pretty!Road”!is!a!sequence!during!
the!solo!in!which!Schneider!allows!for!much!free!improvisation.!Within!this!section,!
Schneider!also!creates!a!collage!of!sounds!that!represent!different!parts!of!her!
childhood,!including!church!bells,!children!running,!her!crow,!a!meadow!lark,!a!
friend’s!mother!calling!for!her!in!a!peculiar!way!(Hopey!),!and!the!tune,!“As!Time!
!
110!
Goes!By,”!a!favorite!of!her!parents,!and!perhaps!a!reference!to!the!temporal!distance!
between!the!composition!and!the!original!memories!(see!fig.(7).!Those!not!playing!
one!of!these!themes!are!asked!to!improvise!freely!in!A!Ionian,!with!the!instruction!
“Everyone!think!‘twinkly!lights.’”!Added!to!this!is!the!continued!solo!of!Ingrid!
Jensen,!who!utilizes!a!delay!effect!on!her!trumpet!to!fit!into!the!shimmering!sound.!
!
fig.(7:(“dream(sequence”(themes(
This!free!section!acts!almost!as!an!auditory!dream!sequence,!in!which!fragments!of!
remembered!sounds!are!reassembled!into!something!resembling!Schneider’s!
memory,!presented!to!let!the!audience!experience!the!memory!of!the!feeling!she!had!
as!a!child!directly.!At!the!end!of!the!dream!sequence,!Schneider!transitions!back!into!
the!tune!through!repetition!and!harmonization!of!the!“Hopey!”!theme.!
! Stylistically,!Schneider!states!that!“The!Pretty!Road”!is!essentially!a!pop!tune.!
One!should!be!warned!not!to!associate!pop!style!with!a!lack!of!sophistication,!and!in!
fact!without!her!advanced!compositional!techniques,!something!written!in!this!style!
could!easily!become!vapid!kitsch.!She!says!that!the!piano!opening!was!the!first!thing!
!
111!
she!wrote,!and!its!pop!style!reminded!her!of!home.!The!theme!in!this!opening!can!be!
divided!into!two!phrases,!which!will!be!referred!to!as!P1!and!P2!(see!figs.(8!&!9).!
Although!the!piece!is!through!composed,!this!particular!theme!is!found!throughout!
the!piece!in!an!everievolving!form.!Schneider’s!choice!of!instrumentation!for!this!
!
fig.(8:(P1(variants!
!
112!
theme!throughout!is!unique!for!the!ensemble,!with!the!voice,!accordion,!and!piano!
being!the!primary!voices!used.!It!is!highly!unusual!for!the!saxophones!and!brass!not!
to!carry!the!tune!at!any!point!during!a!big!band!composition.!Schneider!does!allow!
the!second!reed!to!accompany!the!trio!on!alto!flute!at!m.!37,!and!a!tenor!and!bass!
clarinet!join!at!m.!210,!but!the!darker!and!less!assertive!timbres!of!these!
instruments!make!it!clear!that!the!voice!and!accordion!are!still!the!lead!voices.!
In!the!first!phrase!of!the!theme!(P1),!Schneider!intended!the!original!
presentation!to!pause!momentarily!at!the!end,!as!if!letting!out!a!sigh!after!
remembering!something.12!This!moment!of!pause!evolves!over!the!course!of!the!
piece,!first!by!eliminating!the!suspension!figure!and!shortening!the!bars!at!m.!73.!It!
is!notable!that!this!is!the!fifth!presentation!of!P1,!and!the!last!before!the!solo!break!
and!dream!sequence.!P1!is!quite!consistent!in!the!first!half,!but!the!second!half!
brings!new!variants!entering!much!more!often,!sometimes!one!directly!following!
the!other!(with!no!statement!of!P2).!This!almost!obsessive!reiteration!of!P1!suggests!
that!the!direct!contact!with!the!memory!in!the!dream!sequence!blurred!the!filtered!
memory!of!the!remainder!of!the!piece.!P1!tries!to!discover!itself!through!many!
variations,!finally!settling!into!a!version!that!is!rhythmically!similar!to!the!opening!
presentation!(and!melodically!similar!until!the!last!three!notes)!in!m.!252.!P2!
evolves!much!more!during!the!opening!section,!providing!three!different!variations!
that!are!paired!with!the!four!iterations!of!P1!unchanged.!In!fact,!it!is!when!P1!
changes!for!the!first!time!that!P2!is!absent,!and!P2!does!not!return!until!P1!has!
essentially!returned!to!its!original!form!in!m.!252.!
!
113!
!
fig.(9:(P2(variants(
Two!other!motives!are!significant!in!the!development!of!the!piece.!The!first!is!
the!melody!that!first!appears!at!m.!21!(see!fig.(10).!Schneider!says!she!created!this!
melody!to!allow!the!primary!theme!to!breathe,!with!the!long!notes!allowing!for!lush!
orchestrations!and!the!bass!clarinet/trombone!countermelody!to!be!heard.!This!
!
fig.(10:(secondary(theme(
secondary!theme!only!appears!three!times!in!the!piece,!but!provides!an!important!
contrast!to!the!primary!theme,!particularly!in!the!second!half.!The!second!variant!of!
the!theme!appears!in!m.!226,!temporarily!breaking!up!the!chain!of!P1!variants!
(appearing!in!m.!210,!212,!214,!219,!221,!and!223).!Without!this!secondary!theme,!
!
114!
the!second!half!would!be!in!danger!of!monotony,!due!to!the!frequent!recurrence!of!
P1.!The!other!significant!motive!is!what!will!be!referred!to!as!the!“car!theme”!(see(
fig.(11).!On!a!behind!the!scenes!video!that!is!bundled!with!the!purchase!of!the!score!
!
fig.(11:(“car(theme”!
via!her!Artistshare!website,!Schneider!states!that!when!she!hears!this!motive,!she!
feels!like!she!is!in!the!car!with!her!dad.13!It!is!significant!that!this!motive!is!the!least!
varied!of!all,!perhaps!representing!the!safety!and!stability!of!being!in!the!family!car!
with!her!father.!It!should!also!be!noted!that!this!theme!is!the!last!thing!heard!from!
the!wordless!vocal!part!in!m.!260.!The!voice!part!throughout!the!piece!almost!
always!has!the!melody!line,!suggesting!that!it!might!represent!Schneider’s!own!
voice.!Shortly!after!the!voice!sings!this!as!its!last!melodic!passage,!a!flute!and!
clarinet!play!it!one!after!the!other!as!the!last!melodic!lines!of!the!piece,!with!the!
other!musicians!producing!light!“chatter”!that!fades!out.!Since!the!return!of!what!is!
essentially!the!initial!version!of!P1!happened!only!eight!bars!before!this!ending,!it!
perhaps!suggests!that!we!have!recovered!the!memory!and!are!back!in!the!car,!with!
the!sparkling!view!from!the!Pretty!Road!fading!into!the!distance.!
!
115!
Jim(McNeely((b.(1949)!
! Jim!McNeely!is!renowned!as!both!a!jazz!composer!and!pianist.!He!started!his!
career!in!New!York!in!1975,!and!played!with!many!of!the!leading!jazz!performers!of!
the!time,!including!Phil!Woods!and!Stan!Getz.!He!was!also!a!member!of!the!Thad!
Jones/Mel!Lewis!Orchestra!from!1978!to!1984.!Although!McNeely!has!a!degree!in!
composition!from!the!University!of!Illinois,!much!of!his!style!can!be!attributed!to!his!
absorption!of!the!New!York!jazz!scene!of!the!1970s.!He!describes!listening!to!Red!
Garland!voice!a!chord!with!a!9!in!the!right!hand!and!a!b9!in!the!left!(which!was!
against!the!rules!being!established!in!jazz!education),!and!after!studying!some!of!the!
scores!of!Thad!Jones,!McNeely!said!he!realized!that!so!many!great!jazz!musicians!
and!composers!not!only!broke!traditional!rules,!but!the!way!they!violated!standard!
procedures!was!what!helped!create!their!own!unique!voice.14!McNeely!also!credits!
Bob!Brookmeyer!for!encouraging!his!composition.!Brookmeyer!was!the!musical!
director!for!the!Mel!Lewis!Band!after!the!departure!of!Thad!Jones!in!late!1978,!and!
after!working!with!the!WDR!(Westdeutscher!Rundfunk)!Big!Band!for!several!years,!
Brookmeyer!convinced!them!to!do!an!album!of!McNeely’s!compositions.!According!
to!McNeely,!this!led!to!a!chain!of!opportunities!that!brought!him!back!to!the!
Vanguard!Jazz!Orchestra!(as!the!group!was!renamed!after!the!death!of!Mel!Lewis)!as!
the!composeriiniresidence,!a!position!he!still!holds.15!McNeely’s!style!is!complex!
and!decidedly!serious,!utilizing!dense!harmonies!and!structures,!and!can!be!
aggressive!and!confrontational!at!times.!In!fact,!Down(Beat!magazine!once!referred!
to!Up(From(the(Skies,!a!Vanguard!Jazz!Orchestra!album!of!his!works,!as!“concert!jazz!
at!its!headiest.”16!
!
116!
“LicketyiSplit”!(1996)!
! “LicketyiSplit,”!the!title!track!from!the!first!release!of!the!Vanguard!Jazz!
Orchestra!under!the!present!moniker!and!the!first!recording!released!by!the!band!in!
seven!years,!demonstrates!Jim!McNeely’s!ability!to!utilize!complex!compositional!
procedures!to!create!music!that!is!both!sophisticated!and!accessible.!According!to!
the!album’s!liner!notes,!the!genesis!of!“LicketyiSplit”!was!a!thought!experiment:!
“What!if!the!baritone!saxophone!player!in!James!Brown’s!band!started!to!o.d.!on!
Woody!Shaw,!Sun!Ra,!and!Witold!Lutoslawski?!And!one!night!he!lost!it!and!went!
completely!over!the!line?”17!McNeely!filters!these!dramatically!different!influences!
through!his!own!sensibilities!to!create!a!tune!that,!while!still!clearly!showing!the!
source!material!in!its!DNA,!is!a!new!synthesis!of!his!own!creation.!
! The!head!of!the!tune!is!in!an!AiBiA!format!(see!fig.12).!The!A!section!contains!
the!homage!to!Woody!Shaw:!the!lines!are!highly!chromatic!and!angular,!yet!the!
resulting!sound!is!not!overly!dissonant.!The!melody!is!split!between!two!instrument!
pairs,!tenor!sax!and!trumpet!4!in!the!first!half!and!soprano!sax!and!trumpet!2!in!the!
second.!The!wide!range!of!the!melody!coupled!with!the!succession!of!fifth!and!
tritone!leaps!in!m.!22!would!make!this!incredibly!difficult!for!a!single!player!to!
perform,!so!McNeely!wisely!creates!a!composite!melody!by!having!the!instrument!
pairs!overlap!on!the!Bb.!Underlying!the!melody!is!a!James!Brown!style!vamp!that!is!
loosely!adapted!from!the!song,!“I!Got!the!Feelin.’”!The!B!section!is!more!typical!of!
McNeely’s!style,!with!dense!voicings!consisting!mostly!of!minor!seventh!chords!with!!
!
117!
!
fig.(12:(“LicketyESplit”(head(
the!root!in!the!lead!voice!and!the!seventh!in!the!lowest!voice.!The!simplicity!of!the!“I!
Got!the!Feelin’”!bass!vamp!allows!space!for!this!added!complexity!in!the!B!section!
melody.!At!m.!188,!rhythmically!augmented!versions!of!the!B!section!lines!are!
introduced!as!background!figures!that!eventually!lead!to!the!pseudo!saxophone!soli!
at!m.!205,!which!is!similar!in!character!to!the!A!section.!In!both!cases,!the!“reprise”!
of!each!section!is!somewhat!of!a!caricature,!with!its!notable!features!exaggerated.!
! The!tune!opens!with!a!shocking!six!measures!that!present!a!tone!row!in!
staggered,!overlapping!entrances.!This!row!will!become!involved!in!an!increasingly!
dramatic!back!and!forth!with!another!James!Browniesque!bass!line!that!accounts!
for!the!latter!third!of!the!tune.!This!final!section!begins!in!m.!257,!with!a!bass!line!
!
118!
!
fig.(13:(opening(tone(row(
presented!by!the!bari!sax!(the!featured!soloist),!piano,!and!bass!(see!fig.(14),!with!no!
competing!figures.!Although!there!is!a!certain!amount!of!chromaticism!in!this!line,!
the!aural!effect!is!to!suggest!that!we!are!at!least!centered!on!D.!
!
fig.(14:(bass(line(at(m.(257!
What!follows!is!a!continuing!back!and!forth!between!the!rhythm!section!with!
bari!and!the!remainder!of!the!horn!section!playing!material!developed!from!the!
opening!tone!row!in!a!style!McNeely!refers!to!as!“swinging!pointillism.”18!This!
material!is!abrupt,!syncopated,!and!takes!the!horn!section!to!extremes!of!register,!
spreading!the!lines!between!sections!for!maximum!distance.!The!first!of!these!
sections!begins!in!m.!266,!where!McNeely!presents!the!row!in!prime!form!with!an!!
!
fig.(15:(m.(266E273(
!
119!
added!major!third!below,!followed!by!R1.!There!are!a!few!deviations!that!should!be!
noted,!including!two!instances!where!McNeely!used!the!added!third!below!to!
account!for!one!of!the!row!pitches!(the!Eb!and!B!in!m.!268,!and!the!E!and!G#!in!m.!
271)!and!the!octave!C’s!in!m.!270.!Also!of!interest!is!that!what!should!be!the!first!
note!of!R1!in!m.!270!(Eb)!is!missing,!instead!replaced!with!an!F#.!It!is!difficult!to!
determine!what!McNeely’s!motivations!were!for!changing!this!one!note,!but!it!is!
likely!that!he!just!preferred!the!sound!of!the!F#.!
Following!another!statement!of!the!bass!line!in!the!bari!and!rhythm!section,!
the!pointillism!returns!in!m.!281.!It!is!presented!first!in!prime!form!transposed!a!
tritone!(P6),!and!then!in!retrograde!(R7),!but!this!time!McNeely!adds!a!minor!third!
below!each!pitch.!Once!again,!there!are!two!places!where!he!uses!the!lower!note!to!
express!a!row!pitch!–!the!simultaneous!Bb!and!C#!in!m.!282!and!B!and!F!in!m.!285.!
These!occurrences!are!in!similar!places!within!the!siximeasure!phrase!as!the!ones!in!
m.!266i273.!After!having!two!presentations!of!the!swinging!pointillism,!the!bass!line!
reienters,!but!it,!too,!has!been!adapted!to!fit!the!serial!practices.!In!fact,!it!is!an!exact!
!
fig.(16:(m.(281E287!
!
120!
presentation!of!Ro!that!has!been!adapted!to!be!in!a!similar!rhythmic!and!registral!
configuration!as!the!original!bass!line!from!m.!257.!The!row!is!presented!up!until!
the!last!note,!which!is!withheld!in!m.!293.!Instead,!McNeely!repeats!the!phrase,!
adding!a!bar!to!allow!for!the!final!A!to!be!presented.!This!process!is!repeated!in!
!
fig.(17:(m.(289E297!
m.!313i321.!The!bass!line!changes!again!at!m.!302,!offering!a!four!bar!presentation!
of!RI4,!minus!the!final!note!as!before.!Instead!of!adding!a!bar!to!allow!for!the!
resolution,!McNeely!has!the!pointillism!interrupt!after!seven!measures.!In!this!
interruption!at!m.!309,!R8!is!presented!with!more!varied!accompaniment!intervals!
and!in!an!increasingly!agitated!yet!concise!fashion;!McNeely!is!clearly!signaling!an!
!
fig.(18:(m.(309E312(
approaching!climax.!The!final!entry!of!the!swinging!pointillism!in!m.!337!is!the!most!
dramatic!and!extended!appearance!of!this!idea.!McNeely!presents!four!versions!of!
the!row:!P0!at!m.!337,!followed!by!I6!at!m.!342!(beginning!with!the!Eb),!RI7!at!m.!346,!
and!finally!I8!starting!on!beat!four!of!m.!350.!There!is!one!instance!of!an!anomaly!
!
121!
!
fig.(19:(m.(337E354(
in!the!row!presentation!in!m.!344,!where!McNeely!puts!a!B!instead!of!the!D!required!
by!the!row.!This!section!not!only!contains!the!widest!range!utilized!for!this!idea,!
spanning!well!over!four!octaves!(the!highest!and!lowest!notes!even!occur!in!the!
same!measure,!348),!but!the!rhythms!become!increasingly!agitated!until!the!
sections!begin!to!play!over!one!another.!Finally,!the!horns!collapse!into!octaves!in!m.!
352.!After!the!collapse!of!the!horn!section,!the!bari!sax!and!rhythm!are!left!alone!to!
finish!the!tune,!and!do!so!by!revisiting!one!of!the!earlier!vamps!that!oscillates!
between!two!chords,!much!as!a!funk!tune!would.!However,!not!only!is!the!power!
and!drive!of!the!funk!sections!gone,!the!dreamy!Db13/Eb!and!Eb13!chords!in!the!
piano!suggest!that!perhaps!the!addled!protagonist!is!descending!back!to!reality.!
!
122!
Gordon(Goodwin((b.(1954)!
! Gordon!Goodwin!has!led!a!big!band!in!Los!Angeles!since!2000,!consisting!of!
many!of!the!top!studio!musicians!in!the!area.!In!an!interview!for!Down(Beat!
magazine,!Goodwin!says!that!his!love!for!big!band!began!when!he!heard!the!album,!
Straight(Ahead,!by!the!Count!Basie!Orchestra.20!Although!Basie!was!the!leader!of!the!
orchestra,!all!of!the!tunes!on!the!album!were!composed,!arranged,!and!conducted!by!
Sammy!Nestico.!Nestico!is!most!associated!with!the!Basie!band!of!the!1960s!and!
1970s,!but!he!also!had!a!fruitful!career!in!film!and!television!music.!In!many!ways,!
Goodwin!is!a!modern!day!Nestico,!working!in!film!and!television!while!writing!for!
big!band!more!so!for!personal!enjoyment.!Stylistically,!Goodwin!is!also!in!many!
ways!descended!from!Nestico,!whose!charts!are!known!for!their!highly!accessible!
style.!Goodwin!draws!from!a!wide!variety!of!material,!including!funk!rhythms,!Latin!
clave,!and!classical!music,!but!the!synthesis!of!these!influences!is!colored!by!humor!
and!optimism,!giving!Goodwin’s!band!wide!appeal.!One!particular!demographic!this!
accessibility!and!humor!has!allowed!Goodwin!to!reach!more!so!than!any!living!big!
band!composer!is!the!youth.!Many!have!noted!that!a!sizeable!part!of!Goodwin’s!fan!
base!consists!of!middle!and!high!school!students,!and!have!suggested!that!they!
might!be!less!interested!in!the!avantigarde!and!more!interested!in!hearing!a!
polished!band!play!fun!music.21!This!assumption!is!somewhat!dubious,!but!the!
approachable!nature!of!Goodwin’s!music!undoubtedly!plays!a!large!role!in!its!
widespread!appeal.!
!
123!
! !
124!
“Hunting!Wabbits”!(2004)!
! In!“Hunting!Wabbits,”!Goodwin!showcases!his!humorous!side!while!
simultaneously!highlighting!his!connection!with!the!film!and!television!industry.!
The!chart!is!a!tribute!to!the!late!Carl!Stalling,!who!was!a!Hollywood!composer!most!
famous!for!his!work!on!the!Merrie(Melodies!cartoons.!It!was!nominated!for!a!
Grammy!in!2003!for!Best!Instrumental!Composition,!and!has!been!so!popular!that!
Goodwin!has!written!two!sequels!(“Hunting!Wabbits!2!(A!Bad!Hare!Day)”!in!2006,!
and!the!Grammy!nominated!“Hunting!Wabbits!3!(Get!Off!My!Lawn)”!in!2011).!The!
strength!of!the!composition!lies!in!its!tightly!controlled!thematic!material,!dramatic!
contrasts!in!register,!dynamics,!and!orchestration,!modulations,!and!quirky!nature.!
The!A!section!of!the!tune!is!not!swung,!and!Goodwin!instructs!the!performers!
to!play!in!a!classical,!or!“legit,”!manner.!There!are!three!musical!ideas!that!dominate!
the!A!section:!two!motives,!a!and!b,!and!a!transition!section!that!utilizes!repeated!
fig.(21:(“Hunting(Wabbits”(a(motive!
eighth!notes.!The!a!motive!(see!fig.(21)!is!a!puckish!line!of!almost!constant!eighth!
notes.!A!notable!feature!is!the!circle!of!fifths!progression!in!m.!3i4,!beginning!on!Eb!
!
125!
and!continuing!through!to!D!(the!dominant),!which!is!followed!by!sixteenth!note!
lines!in!contrary!motion!that!set!up!a!restart!of!the!opening!material.!The!second!
half!of!the!motive!begins!with!the!same!two!measures!as!the!first,!but!forgoes!the!
circle!of!fifths!progression,!opting!instead!for!a!legato!descending!line!and!a!final!
mischievous!resolution!to!the!tonic!(highlighted!in!particular!by!the!grace!notes).!
The!b!motive!(see!fig.(22)!is!of!a!slightly!different!character,!consisting!of!a!back!and!
forth!motion!between!G!minor!and!Eb!major!chords,!with!Goodwin!allowing!the!line!!
!
fig.(22:(“Hunting(Wabbits”(b(motive(
to!settle!every!two!beats.!In!the!third!bar,!Goodwin!opens!the!voicing!up!before!
using!a!chromatic!passage!to!arrive!at!the!dominant!before!the!puckish!character!of!
the!a!motive!returns.!In!fact,!the!a!motive!is!the!dominant!material!in!use!during!the!
A!sections,!returning!three!times!in!the!opening!A!section,!while!the!b!motive!only!
returns!once.!In!order!to!keep!this!section!from!sounding!monotonous,!given!that!
the!a!motive!accounts!for!more!than!one!third!of!the!section,!Goodwin!employs!key!
changes!and!what!could!essentially!be!called!an!orchestrational!crescendo.!The!
initial!two!presentations!are!in!the!saxophones!alone,!but!Goodwin!changes!the!key!
from!G!minor!to!C!minor!to!keep!the!line!moving!forward.!At!m.!54,!the!key!changes!
back!to!G!minor!and!Goodwin!adds!in!the!brass!in!mutes,!alternating!the!melodic!
material!between!the!saxes!and!trumpets!roughly!every!two!measures.!When!the!
motive!returns!for!the!final!time!in!this!section!at!m.!74,!the!key!once!again!changes!
!
126!
to!C!minor!and!in!addition!to!the!alternating!melody!in!saxophones!and!trumpets!
(now!open),!there!are!additional!figures!in!the!trumpets!and!trombones.!In!this!way,!
each!presentation!of!the!a!motive!sounds!familiar,!but!changes!and!grows!to!the!end!
of!the!opening!A!section.!The!other!prevalent!element!in!this!section!(perhaps!one!of!
the!most!important!of!the!whole!chart)!is!a!transition!that!Goodwin!employs!that!
utilizes!repeated!eighth!notes,!typically!in!either!Vii!or!iiiVii!progressions!over!
several!measures.!This!transition!is!so!important!that!it!is!used!not!only!to!set!up!all!!
fig.(23:(“Hunting(Wabbits”(m.(43!
but!one!occurrence!of!the!a!motive,!but!also!between!the!A!and!B!sections!of!the!
tune.!
!
127!
! Goodwin!employs!the!trombones!in!the!A!section!to!provide!some!material!
that!while!consistent!in!character!is!nonetheless!different!from!the!rest!of!the!
section.!In!m.!32,!the!trombones!present!a!condensed!version!of!the!a!motive,!which!
is!followed!by!a!rising!chromatic!line!in!m.!41.!The!chromatic!line!leads!to!a!brief!
passage!in!A!minor!(the!only!time!the!tune!moves!to!a!key!other!than!G!or!C!minor),!
in!which!Goodwin!writes!extreme!contrasts!from!one!measure!to!the!next!(see!fig.(
23).!Not!only!does!the!dynamic!change!from!forte!to!piano!and!back,!but!the!
measures!are!also!roughly!a!tenth!apart!in!all!four!parts,!shifting!from!A!minor!to!F!
major.!In!the!fourth!measure!of!this!section,!Goodwin!creates!a!downward!cascading!
figure!that!goes!through!the!four!parts,!with!each!doubling!a!note!from!the!previous!
player.!He!could!have!simply!written!each!successive!note!in!the!next!part,!but!this!
overlap!adds!considerable!power!to!the!line.!Following!this!brief!section!in!A!minor,!
the!trombones!once!again!use!the!upward!chromatic!line!to!transition!back!to!the!
full!band!playing!the!a!motive!at!m.!54.!
! The!final!A!section,!beginning!in!m.!160,!is!a!concise!reprise.!The!a!motive!is!
presented!in!the!exact!same!orchestration!as!it!was!at!the!end!of!the!first!A!section!
(starting!at!m.!74),!and!Goodwin!employs!the!same!transition!with!an!added!two!
measure!contrapuntal!figure!in!the!saxophones!(see!fig.(24).!In!the!transition!to!the!
B!section,!this!figure,!followed!by!the!measure!of!eighth!notes!in!the!trombones!
came!just!before!the!entire!band!played!a!strong!Vii,!making!this!cadence!even!
stronger!by!virtue!of!the!thin!scoring!in!the!prior!measures.!In!the!final!A!section,!
Goodwin!employs!this!technique!again,!but!delays!the!resolution!a!full!measure.!The!!
!
128!
!
fig.(24:(“Hunting(Wabbits”(m.(83(&(169!
final!six!measures!consist!of!an!extremely!condensed!presentation!of!the!a!and!b!
motives!in!the!saxophones!alone!(ending!the!tune!the!way!it!began),!followed!by!
contrary!motion!leading!to!C’s!in!the!soprano!and!baritone!saxophone!several!
octaves!apart,!accompanied!by!a!mischievous!sounding!triangle.!
! The!B!section!is!the!antithesis!of!the!silly!character!of!the!A!section.!It!mostly!
consists!of!an!open!solo!section,!which!is!a!twelve!bar!C!minor!blues.!This!section!is!
also!swung,!and!the!effect!of!the!swing!eighth!notes!is!heightened!by!the!fact!that!it!
comes!right!out!of!86!measures!of!goofy!straight!eighth!figures.!The!background!
figures!at!m.!99!are!relatively!traditional,!beginning!with!saxophones,!adding!
trombones!for!counterpoint!in!m.!111,!and!finally!adding!in!the!trumpets!in!m.!118!
for!a!big!sendoff!in!m.!120.!After!the!solo!section,!Goodwin!begins!a!building!vamp!
over!a!C!pedal!in!m.!123.!The!eight!bar!section!at!m.!127!repeats!four!times,!with!an!
additional!voice!(or!two)!added!each!time!(see!fig.(25).!The!interest!in!this!section!
comes!not!only!from!the!density!of!material!present,!but!also!the!way!it!is!
!
129!
orchestrated.!In!all!the!other!parts!of!the!tune,!Goodwin!scores!instruments!with!
their!own!sections.!In!this!build,!however,!he!scores!the!different!lines!across!the!!
!
fig.(25:(“Hunting(Wabbits”(m.(127(
sections,!with!the!beginning!melody!in!tenor!saxophones!and!trombone!2,!the!held!
F’s!in!soprano!sax!and!trombone!3,!and!the!percussive!line!in!alto!sax,!trumpet!3,!
!
130!
and!trombone!1.!This!practice!of!scoring!across!the!sections!is!certainly!not!a!new!
technique,!but!it!is!especially!effective!during!this!build!not!only!because!it!helps!
thicken!the!timbre!of!each!line,!but!also!because!this!is!the!only!place!in!the!entire!
chart!to!utilize!this!type!of!orchestration.!The!chaos!of!this!section!also!makes!the!
arrival!of!the!full!band!on!an!Ab13sus!in!unison!rhythms!at!m.!142!all!the!more!
effective.!“Hunting!Wabbits”!is!a!study!in!balancing!extreme!contrasts!with!
maintaining!familiarity.!The!small!amount!of!thematic!material!present!through!
most!of!the!tune!helps!highlight!the!contrasts!in!orchestration,!while!the!dramatic!
shift!from!the!A!to!B!section!strengthens!the!impact!of!both.!
Alan(Ferber((b.(1975)!
! Alan!Ferber!is!the!leader!of!both!a!big!band!and!nonet,!and!is!known!for!his!
skills!both!as!a!jazz!composer!and!as!a!trombonist.!Although!he!is!from!a!musical!
family!and!started!playing!at!a!young!age,!Ferber!told!me!that!he!did!not!begin!
writing!music!until!his!final!year!in!college.22!From!the!beginning,!he!indicated!that!
he!has!always!been!interested!in!writing!for!several!horns!because!he!has!a!special!
interest!in!chord!voicings.!During!a!stint!with!a!traveling!Broadway!production,!
Ferber!began!writing!tunes!for!the!pit!orchestra!just!to!give!himself!and!his!fellow!
musicians!something!creative!to!work!on,!and!the!result!became!the!music!for!his!
first!nonet!records.!Following!the!success!of!the!albums,!Ferber!was!commissioned!
to!write!several!charts!for!big!band,!and!says!he!realized!that!some!of!the!nonet!
tunes!were!really!big!band!tunes!that!he!had!adjusted!to!fit!the!smaller!ensemble.!
His!first!big!band!album,!March(Sublime,!was!released!in!2013!and!was!nominated!
!
131!
for!a!Grammy.!Ferber!credits!his!experience!as!a!trombone!player!in!various!big!
bands!with!allowing!him!to!absorb!how!large!ensemble!parts!are!put!together.!He!
says!that!playing!many!of!the!background!and!foundational!parts!that!are!often!
present!in!typical!trombone!parts!allowed!him!to!listen!to!the!more!prominent!
melody!lines!while!understanding!how!the!foundation!is!built.!Ferber’s!musical!style!
is!firmly!rooted!in!the!traditions!of!the!ensemble,!but!his!attention!to!voicings!and!
harmony!as!well!as!his!adventurous!rhythmic!explorations!give!his!music!a!unique!
personality.!
“March!Sublime”!(2013)!
! “March!Sublime”!is!partially!inspired!by!Ravel’s!“Bolero,”!utilizing!a!rhythmic!
ostinato!figure!through!most!of!the!tune!and!employing!an!orchestrational!
crescendo!during!the!latter!third.!It!is!a!mostly!modal!work,!spending!the!majority!
of!the!chart!in!D!Aeolian.!It!is!also!characterized!by!the!use!of!parallel!fifths!and!
fourths.!In!fact,!the!first!pitched!entrance!is!a!series!of!parallel!fourths!in!the!bass!
that,!while!being!consistent!with!D!Aeolian,!do!not!firmly!suggest!any!tonality.!The!
ostinato!figure!begins!the!tune!as!a!simple!rhythmic!figure!in!the!drums!(see!fig.(26).!
!
fig.(26:(“March(Sublime”(ostinato(figure!
This!ostinato!figure!is!present!through!much!of!the!tune,!being!passed!from!one!
group!of!players!to!another.!The!various!presentations!of!the!ostinato!figure!all!
center!around!A,!giving!it!almost!the!effect!of!a!dominant!pedal.!The!first!entrance!of!
the!figure!in!the!horns!is!the!tenor!saxophones,!playing!occasional!G’s!opposite!one!
!
132!
another!(see!fig.(27).!Ferber!uses!this!technique!of!having!players!play!notes!
surrounding!A!at!different!times!throughout!the!opening!section.!In!m.!50,!the!
fig.(27:(tenor(saxophone(ostinato(in(m.(13!
ostinato!is!presented!in!all!eighth!notes,!increasing!the!dominant!murmur!beneath!
the!melody!line.!In!the!final!section,!it!assumes!a!melodic!role!in!the!first!trombone!
(see!fig.(28).!It!was!presented!in!this!form!in!m.!193!in!the!piano,!but!the!register!and!
scoring!cause!this!earlier!presentation!to!become!subsumed!into!the!other!activity.!
The!trombone!presentation!in!m.201!is!clearly!meant!to!stand!out,!given!its!forte!
dynamic,!high!tessitura,!and!explicit!instruction!to!play!expressively.!From!m.!209!
!
fig.(28:(trombone(ostinato(melody!
to!the!end,!the!ostinato!morphs!into!a!twisting!eighth!note!figure!in!the!trumpets!
and!piano!that!essentially!takes!the!spotlight!away!from!the!long!note!melody.!It!
begins!by!supporting!the!D!Aeolian!modality,!but!by!the!fourth!measure!it!moves!
into!outside!territory!that!cannot!be!clearly!identified!with!a!specific!tonality!or!
scale!construction.!At!m.!217,!the!figure!begins!again,!this!time!with!the!alto!
saxophones!and!guitar!added.!It!progresses!through!the!same!outside!figures!until!
!
133!
the!seventh!bar,!when!the!eighths!turn!to!triplet!eighths!and!the!figure!finally!spins!
out!of!control,!landing!on!a!D!open!fifth!two!measures!later.!
! There!are!only!two!sections!in!the!entire!piece!where!the!ostinato!is!not!
present.!The!first!is!in!m.!86,!in!which!the!ostinato!eighths!are!replaced!by!repeated!
quarter!note!chords!that!essentially!act!as!a!B!section!of!the!form.!In!this!section,!
Ferber!also!retreats!from!the!modal!approach!and!incorporates!complex!chord!
changes.!He!signals!for!this!change!in!a!transition!beginning!in!m.!79,!where!he!only!
allows!two!bar!fragments!of!both!the!melody!and!ostinato.!Under!this,!the!chord!
rhythm!and!complexity!increases!dramatically,!with!an!Ebmaj7(#11),!Fmaj9(#11),!and!
Dbmaj13(#11)!in!only!the!first!measure.!In!the!solo!section!(beginning!in!m.!103),!the!
ostinato!figure!is!written!in!the!rhythm!section!parts,!but!is!not!present!on!the!
recording.!It!is!likely!that!Ferber!decided!that!a!break!from!the!figure!was!warranted!
before!the!final!build.!The!B!section!repeated!quarter!notes!do!return,!however,!to!
provide!a!transition!out!of!the!solo!section.!
! There!are!essentially!two!primary!melodies,!one!used!in!the!opening!section,!
and!one!in!the!final!build.!Both!are!characterized!by!their!use!of!longer!note!values!
to!contrast!the!murmuring!ostinato!line.!The!opening!melody!is!first!presented!in!m.!
30!(see!fig.(29)!in!alto!saxophone!2.!Lingering!on!the!dominant!and!minor!third,!this!
line!fits!squarely!in!the!D!Aeolian!mode.!A!tenor!saxophone!is!added!in!for!the!
second!presentation!in!m.!40,!in!which!many!of!the!pitches!change,!but!the!melody!
retains!the!same!basic!shape.!This!also!introduces!the!idea!of!parallel!fifths!in!the!
melody!line!(which!is!a!natural!outgrowth!of!the!parallel!fourths!that!underlie!the!
entire!tune!up!to!this!point).!In!m.!50,!Ferber!introduces!a!new!variant!that!is!!
!
134!
!
fig.(29:(“March(Sublime”(opening(section(melody(
characterized!by!its!downward!motion.!This!line,!which!appears!alongside!the!
original!version!of!the!melody,!is!not!allowed!to!be!fully!heard!yet,!but!rather!is!
subsumed!back!into!the!original!version.!The!downward!line!and!original!version!
combine!into!a!new!composite!melody!in!m.!63!in!the!piano.!This!is!accompanied!by!
open!fifths!in!the!left!hand,!which!foreshadow!the!open!fifths!in!the!melody!in!m.!67.!
Measures!67i70!are!a!striking!moment!in!the!chart!for!several!reasons.!The!first!is!
the!occasional!presence!of!a!Dmaj7!chord,!the!first!time!the!tune!has!ventured!out!of!
the!D!Aeolian!mode.!These!new!tones!are!heightened!by!the!open!fifth!voicing,!as!
well!as!the!absence!of!the!ostinato!figure.!These!four!measures,!along!with!the!horn!
!
135!
presentation!of!this!melody!in!m.!75i8,!are!the!only!eight!bars!in!the!chart!thus!far!
that!lack!the!ostinato.!
! The!B!section!lacks!a!proper!melody,!although!the!offbeat!bass!line,!which!is!
doubled!in!tenor!and!baritone!saxophone,!becomes!a!prominent!line.!The!melody!in!
the!final!build!(see!fig.(30)!is!again!constructed!from!longer!notes,!this!time!entirely!
consisting!of!half!notes!(except!for!the!final!note).!After!the!initial!presentation!in!
!
fig.(30:(m.(161(melody!
m.!161,!Ferber!immediately!begins!layering!entrances!of!the!melody!in!the!
saxophones,!a!technique!he!has!used!in!other!charts!(e.g.,!coming!out!of!the!solo!
section!in!“The!Compass”).!This!layered!melody!remains!present!through!most!of!
the!build,!until!in!m.!217!the!half!notes!begin!spelling!chords!along!with!the!
trombones!and!the!ostinato!has!fully!taken!over.!
! Another!similarity!to!“Bolero”!lies!in!the!rich!variation!in!timbres!employed.!
Ferber!utilizes!subtone!in!the!saxophones,!cup!mute!in!the!extreme!upper!register!
and!half!plunger!in!the!trombones,!and!bucket!in!the!trumpets!in!the!first!thirty!
measures!alone.!There!are!moments!where!Ferber!adds!points!of!color!to!the!
melody!and!ostinato,!such!as!the!1i3!trumpet!parts!in!m.!41i8.!While!the!melody!line!
holds!its!long!notes,!the!trumpets!enter!with!an!accented!long!note,!voiced!tightly!
and!in!a!high!tessitura,!and!in!harmon!mutes.!While!this!part!is!not!essential!to!the!
progression!of!the!tune,!it!adds!an!extra!color.!Ferber!also!begins!the!tune!and!the!
build!with!a!trumpet!solo!that!is!put!through!electronic!effects.!While!a!standard!
!
136!
trumpet!sound!would!have!worked!in!both!of!these!places,!the!effects!help!achieve!
the!otherworldly!atmosphere!conjured!by!this!chart.!This!atmosphere!is!perhaps!the!
most!notable!feature!of!the!tune,!created!by!the!combination!of!serene!melodies,!a!
murmuring!ostinato,!and!unusual!parallel!voicings.!
Darcy(James(Argue((b.(1975)!
! One!big!band!leader!and!composer!who!has!revitalized!the!big!band!scene!in!
the!last!couple!of!years!is!Darcy!James!Argue.!Argue!was!not!initially!interested!in!
big!band!until!working!with!big!band!composer/arranger!Bob!Brookmeyer.!In!a!
recent!interview!with!Brad!Farberman!for!DownBeat!magazine!Argue!recounted!his!
first!impressions!of!the!ensemble,!describing!the!thrill!of!the!power!and!potential!
chaos.!He!stated!that!the!feeling!of!leading!a!big!band!was!one!that!could!not!be!
replicated!by!any!other!ensemble.23!In!addition!to!Brookmeyer,!Argue!also!cites!
Maria!Schneider!as!an!influence,!echoing!many!contemporary!big!band!composers!
in!his!assertion!that!Evanescence,!Schneider’s!first!album,!was!in!some!ways!the!first!
step!in!ushering!in!a!new!generation!of!big!band!composers.24!
In!establishing!The!Secret!Society,!Argue!said!that!he!coldicalled!musicians!
and!asked!if!they!would!be!willing!to!play!in!a!new!big!band!with!no!guarantee!of!
payment.!To!his!surprise,!most!agreed.25!A!large!factor!in!the!success!of!the!band!has!
been!its!association!with!the!steampunk!aesthetic.!This!subigenre!of!science!fiction!
has!become!an!increasingly!popular!one,!in!which!an!alternate!history!leads!to!the!
construction!of!futuristic!machines!descended!from!19th!century!steam!technology.!
In!an!article!for!the!Village(Voice,!Richard!Gehr!notes!that!Argue!“borrowed!
!
137!
signifiers!from!the!steampunk!scene’s!romantic!retrofuturism.!The!metaphor!is!apt:!
as!anachronistic!as!big!bands!may!be,!they!harbor!the!potential!to!unleash!
surprisingly!modern!sounds.”26!This!identification!with!a!particular!visual!style!and!
its!accompanying!associations!has!helped!set!the!band!apart!from!a!traditional!big!
band!while!respecting!its!roots.!Argue!teamed!with!Croatian!graphic!artist,!Danijel!
Žeželj,!in!2013!to!create!the!multimedia!piece,!Brooklyn(Babylon,!a!steampunk!
inspired!narrative!depicting!the!construction!of!the!tallest!building!in!the!world!in!
Brooklyn.!Žeželj’s!art!style!is!heavily!influenced!by!the!steampunk!aesthetic,!and!the!
band!performed!in!steampunk!inspired!costumes.!The!music!juxtaposes!many!
musical!styles!in!an!effort!to!create!an!auditory!narrative!to!correspond!with!the!
visual!images.!This!cultivation!and!development!of!many!disparate!styles!is!not!
simply!pastiche,!but!rather!an!attempt!to!modernize!the!ensemble!and!keep!it!
relevant.!Argue!explains!that!he!initially!believed!that!jazz!musicians!should!listen!to!
jazz!exclusively,!but!eventually!came!to!the!realization!that!“jazz!is!so!incredibly!
influential!in!all!sorts!of!underirecognized!and!subtle!ways!that!trying!to!wall!it!off!
from!popular!culture,!to!make!it!a!museum!piece!to!be!appreciated!rather!than!
music!that’s!going!to!change!your!life,!is!clearly!misguided.”27!The!notion!of!jazz!and!
big!band!as!living!practices!is!what!many!find!refreshing!about!his!approach.!Argue!
also!takes!inspiration!from!the!motivic!unity!found!in!some!classical!music.!In!the!
interview!with!Farberman,!Argue!commented!on!the!importance!of!his!motivic!
approach!in!Brooklyn(Babylon,!noting!that!he!attempted!to!create!a!sense!of!audible!
unity!among!the!various!movements.28!The!combination!of!recent!musical!styles!
and!sounds!with!a!largeiscale!conception!makes!Brooklyn(Babylon!an!album!of!
!
138!
interest!to!many!audiences!of!differing!levels!of!musical!knowledge!and!
sophistication.!
“Brooklyn(Babylon(e(1.(The(Neighborhood”((2011)!
! In!the!opening!to!the!first!proper!tune!of!Brooklyn(Babylon,!titled!“The!
Neighborhood,”!Argue!utilizes!churning!repeated!rhythmic!figures!that!are!almost!
reminiscent!of!a!postiminimalist!work.!The!tonality!in!the!opening!is!notably!
ambiguous,!beginning!with!open!fifth!repeated!eighth!notes!in!the!piano!on!E!and!B.!
Beginning!in!m.!7,!Argue!introduces!a!rhythmic!motive!that!contains!a!number!of!
eighth!notes!(from!one!to!eight)!followed!by!four!dotted!eighths.!This!rhythmic!
motive!dominates!the!opening!section,!with!most!voices!containing!a!descending!
pattern!of!eighths.!For!example,!beginning!in!m.!7!in!the!left!hand!of!the!piano,!eight!
eighths!are!followed!by!four!dotted!eighths,!then!seven,!six,!five,!then!seven!down!to!
four,!six!down!to!three!(the!six!starting!at!m.!19),!and!five!down!to!two,!which!
finishes!in!m.!28.!All!of!these!presentations!begin!gravitating!toward!four!eighths!
beginning!in!m.!29,!which!becomes!the!stable!version!of!this!figure.!In!fact,!the!four!
eighth!version!becomes!a!stable!sixteenth!note!ostinato!in!m.!40!that!becomes!the!
foundation!of!the!remainder!of!the!opening!section!(see!fig.(31).!Each!entrance!of!the!
!
fig.(31:(4(eighth(pattern(&(sixteenth(ostinato!
!
139!
rhythmic!pattern,!beginning!in!m.!7,!is!voiced!in!pairs!of!instruments!in!open!fifths!
and!although!at!first!glance!there!does!not!appear!to!be!a!pattern,!further!study!
shows!that!the!instrument!pairs!are!progressing!through!more!or!less!the!same!
pitch!order,!just!at!different!times!(see!fig.(32!*note:!entrances!of!the!rhythmic!
pattern!are!indicated!only!by!the!notes!contained).!Each!grouping!starts!with!BiE,!
moves!to!DiA,!CiG,!BbiF,!and!finally!AbiEb.!Not!all!instrument!pairs!move!through!
the!entire!progression,!and!in!fact!Argue!makes!sure!that!all!fifths!are!represented!in!
the!final!measures!leading!up!to!m.!40,!where!the!tonality!finally!settles!on!Ab!(a!
minor!sixth!away!from!the!opening!fifth).!It!should!be!noted,!however,!that!the!open!
fifths!remain,!with!the!chord!voiced!as!AbiEbiBb.!Argue!labels!this!a!sus!2!chord,!
and!this!particular!sound!will!feature!heavily!throughout!the!A!sections.!The!minor!
sixth!relationship!between!the!opening!EiB!and!the!AbiEb,!as!well!as!its!chromatic!
variant!(the!tritone!from!Eb!to!A),!continues!in!the!harmony!throughout!the!
presentation!of!the!A!section!melody!(beginning!in!m.!60),!moving!from!Absus2!to!
Emaj,!and!Eb7sus!to!Amaj(#11).!
! The!initial!melody!in!m.!60!is!accompanied!only!by!the!rhythm!section,!
presumably!so!it!can!be!clearly!heard.!Once!the!tenor!saxophone!begins!to!
improvise,!various!instrument!pairs!come!in!with!long!notes.!These!pairs!are!mostly!
written!in!seconds,!the!exception!being!trombone!3!and!bass!trombone,!which!are!
mostly!in!fifths.!Argue!gives!the!instrument!pairs!within!families!timbral!variety,!
with!lower!trombones!and!trumpets!in!bucket,!upper!trombones!and!trumpet!2i3!in!
cup,!and!trumpet!1!in!harmon.!In!fact,!the!timbral!palette!throughout!the!chart!is!!
!
140!
!
141!
notably!wide!ranging,!especially!through!the!use!of!instrument!doubles.!He!utilizes!
piccolo,!flute,!alto!flute!in!the!wind!1!part!(normally!alto!or!soprano!saxophone),!
flute!and!soprano!sax!in!wind!2!(normally!alto!saxophone),!clarinet!in!wind!3!
(normally!tenor!saxophone),!clarinet!and!tenor!saxophone!in!wind!4,!and!clarinet,!
bass!clarinet,!and!baritone!saxophone!in!wind!5.!He!also!includes!the!
aforementioned!muting,!flugelhorn!doubles!in!the!trumpets,!and!tuba!in!the!bass!
trombone!part.!
The!melody!at!m.!60!is!written!out!with!a!rhythmic!specificity!that!is!rarely!
seen!in!traditional!jazz,!almost!as!if!the!expressive!rubato!normally!used!by!a!soloist!
on!a!simpler!melody!was!written!out.!Argue!maintains!this!specificity!in!the!full!
ensemble!version!of!the!melody!in!m.!170,!which,!while!not!exactly!the!same!as!the!
original,!is!essentially!the!same!basic!shape!(see.!fig.(33).!The!voicing!of!this!section,!
with!all!but!the!low!winds!and!low!trombones!on!the!melody,!is!of!note,!as!it!is!
mostly!cluster!voicings.!To!allow!the!lead!line!to!project!through,!Argue!employs!
two!techniques.!First,!he!has!it!in!three!octaves!between!the!soprano!saxophone,!!
!
fig.(33:(first(phrase(of(the(primary(melody(
!
142!
trumpet!1,!and!piccolo.!He!also!leaves!space!between!the!top!two!octaves!and!the!
remainder!of!the!horns,!a!technique!utilized!by!his!mentor,!Bob!Brookmeyer.!
! The!fluctuating!rhythmic!pattern!returns!in!m.!97!in!the!opening!section,!
slowly!taking!over!from!the!long!note!pairs.!However,!in!this!presentation,!Argue!
keeps!the!note!choices!in!line!with!the!underlying!harmony.!So!while!the!staggered!
entrances!still!give!the!impression!of!chaos,!it!is!chaos!within!a!more!regular!
harmonic!structure.!The!pattern!returns!in!m.!163!in!its!four!eighth!note!variant!in!
the!wind!1i2,!but!reversed,!to!transition!back!to!the!return!of!the!A!section.!Argue!
continues!the!figure!at!m.!171!to!accompany!the!fleshed!out!melody,!but!has!it!in!
trombone!3i4!in!its!regular!four!eighth!variant!and!wind!3i5!in!its!four!eighth!
reverse!form.!He!plays!these!two!groups!against!one!another!for!the!remainder!of!
the!section.!Although!this!keeps!with!the!cacophonous!sound!of!the!opening!section,!
it!is!clear!that!the!fleshed!out!melody!is!the!focus!here.!
! The!B!and!C!sections!are!moments!of!repose,!and!typically!focus!on!rounder!
textures,!with!the!use!of!clarinets!and!flutes,!adding!trumpets!in!buckets!in!the!final!
section.!The!B!section,!beginning!at!m.!136,!is!in!C!minor,!and!the!primary!focus!is!a!
clarinet!solo.!Although!the!rhythms!here!are!meticulous!as!well,!they!are!a!bit!more!
regular,!and!it!is!clear!Argue!intends!for!the!soloist!to!use!a!lighter!touch,!indicated!
by!the!instrument!choice,!dynamic,!and!instructions!(espressivo!in!the!B!section!
clarinet!solo!vs.!big!sound,!ecstatic,!raw!in!the!A!section!tenor!saxophone!solo).!Both!
sections!are!short!–!the!first!is!only!into!the!fourth!full!bar!of!the!clarinet!solo!when!
the!trumpets!begin!to!interrupt!with!triplet!eighths!that!in!many!ways!are!a!
reminder!of!the!A!section.!All!are!either!open!fifths!or!fourths,!or!clusters.!The!C!
!
143!
section!sits!atop!a!series!of!staggered!entrances!in!the!low!winds,!low!trombones,!
guitar,!and!bass!that!mostly!expresses!G7sus,!Cmin13,!and!Fmin9.!Save!for!the!
penultimate!bar,!every!measure!contains!a!time!signature!change.!The!melody,!in!
flutes!and!trumpet!4i5!in!buckets,!is!characterized!by!moving!lines!followed!by!long!
held!notes!in!four!bar!phrases.!This!eight!bar!melody!is!presented!twice,!although!
naturally!it!is!slightly!varied!on!the!second!presentation.!The!ending!on!G7sus!would!
normally!be!an!unusual!choice,!as!a!suspended!chord!suggests!a!resolution!that!does!
not!materialize.!In!this!instance,!however,!it!works!perfectly,!as!this!tune!is!the!
beginning!of!a!much!larger!work.!
! Although!there!does!not!exist!a!video!recording!of!the!live!performance!of!
Brooklyn(Babylon,!the!visual!artist,!Danijel!Žeželj,!published!the!images!created!for!
this!multimedia!work!as!the!graphic!novel,!Babilon,!in!2013.!Due!to!the!fact!that!the!
novel!is!divided!into!chapters!that!correspond!to!the!movement!titles!from!the!
album,!one!may!assume!that!the!images!presented!in!each!are!roughly!equivalent!to!
what!was!shown!during!the!live!performance.!From!these!images,!one!can!infer!how!
the!images!and!music!were!used!together!to!create!a!narrative.!The!rhythmic!
pattern!could!be!seen!to!represent!the!bustling!neighborhood.!In!the!beginning,!we!
have!not!met!our!protagonists,!so!the!harmony!remains!ambiguous,!with!each!pair!
of!fifths!keeping!to!itself.!The!settling!in!of!the!harmony!and!solo!melody!in!tenor!
saxophone!might!correspond!with!the!entrance!of!the!marching!band!in!the!images,!
with!the!saxophone!pictured!prominently.!The!quieter!B!and!C!sections,!at!m.!136!
and!199,!likely!represent!the!two!indoor!scenes,!the!first!in!the!carousel!workshop,!
with!the!boy!and!older!man!observing!sketches!of!carousel!horses.!The!second!ends!
!
144!
this!movement,!with!the!boy!and!man!in!“Ana”!having!coffee!and!a!croissant.!The!
vigorous!reprise!of!the!melody!in!m.!170,!voiced!in!all!trumpets!and!in!the!upper!
parts!of!the!winds!and!trombones!perhaps!represents!the!boy’s!excitement!at!being!
outside!in!the!neighborhood.!He!has!come!out!of!the!carousel!shop!and!is!running!
along!the!sidewalk!with!balloon!in!hand,!and!the!amplified!version!of!the!melody!
line!could!well!be!the!sounds!of!the!neighborhood!filtered!through!a!child’s!
excitement.!Brooklyn(Babylon!is!a!monumental!work!for!big!band,!an!ensemble!that!
rarely!enjoys!large!multi!movement!works.!This!piece!offers!evidence!that!the!
ensemble!is!capable!of!an!incredible!range!of!effects!and!techniques,!effects!Argue!is!
able!to!masterfully!employ.!
!
145!
CONCLUSION(
! The!current!big!band!scene!is!thriving!and!continuing!to!redefine!itself.!Jazz!
composers!are!relying!on!a!closelyiknit!community!of!performers!to!overcome!the!
economic!obstacles!faced!when!forming!such!a!large!ensemble,!and!the!bands!would!
not!be!able!to!exist!and!succeed!in!the!way!they!do!without!this!small!but!dedicated!
community.!Likewise,!the!fan!community!for!this!niche!ensemble!is!small,!yet!it!is!
comprised!of!individuals!devoted!to!keeping!the!scene!alive.!Recent!works!by!Maria!
Schneider,!Darcy!James!Argue,!Alan!Ferber,!and!others!have!elevated!the!status!of!
the!ensemble!in!the!eyes!of!jazz!scholars,!and!hopefully!this!study!will!be!one!of!the!
first!of!many!into!this!sophisticated!and!underappreciated!music!and!the!people!
who!create!it.!
! The!path!towards!the!continued!success!of!contemporary!big!band!leaders!is!
one!that!fully!utilizes!the!emerging!technologies!for!networking!and!distribution.!
Keeping!fans!in!direct!contact!with!musicians!and!other!fans!forms!stronger!bonds!
not!only!between!the!fans!and!creators,!but!also!among!the!fan!community.!
Engagement!within!the!fan!community!also!creates!a!certain!type!of!
connoisseurship!in!which!knowledge!of!the!scene!becomes!a!sort!of!cultural!capital,!
encouraging!members!of!the!community!to!engage!more!deeply.!In!addition!to!
staying!in!active!communication!with!fans,!creators!also!need!to!take!advantage!of!
new!forms!of!circulation!in!order!to!finance!recordings!and!potentially!receive!some!
financial!reward.!Voluntary!payment!schemes!such!as!Bandcamp!that!allow!for!fans!
to!pay!whatever!they!wish!are!often!successful!in!niche!genres;!however,!they!do!
!
146!
not!provide!help!with!recording!costs,!which!in!the!case!of!a!big!band!is!
prohibitively!expensive.!The!valueiadded!model,!in!which!additional!content!is!
given!away!with!the!purchase!of!a!recording,!is!also!an!attractive!option!for!creators!
and!fans.!The!model!employed!by!Artistshare,!which!additionally!provides!
fundraising!prior!to!a!recording,!is!perhaps!the!most!promising!way!forward!for!
future!big!band!leaders.!However,!methods!of!digital!circulation!are!still!relatively!
new!and!in!flux,!so!there!may!yet!be!a!better!solution.!
! The!university!system!will!also!continue!to!play!a!large!role!in!shaping!the!
future!of!the!ensemble.!While!it!is!inevitable!that!this!relationship!will!change!the!
music!written!for!big!bands,!change!itself!is!inevitable.!University!professors!must!
continue!to!offer!a!certain!level!of!apprenticeship!that!has!always!been!a!foundation!
of!jazz.!Almost!all!of!the!interview!participants!in!this!study!agreed!that!students!
should!learn!the!rich!tradition!of!big!band!music!so!that!the!changes!that!occur!in!
the!future!are!rooted!in!the!history!of!the!ensemble.!Universities!should!also!make!
efforts!to!recruit!a!student!body!that!is!more!racially!and!economically!diverse.!As!in!
genetics,!wider!diversity!creates!stronger!offspring,!and!the!big!band!music!of!the!
future!will!be!more!relevant!if!it!is!created!by!a!number!of!different!voices!from!
different!perspectives.!
! Embracing!and!promoting!the!entirety!of!the!tradition!is!important!to!the!
continuing!development!of!big!bands.!While!the!deep!history!of!the!ensemble!
certainly!includes!the!high!point!of!its!popularity!in!the!1930s!and!1940s,!the!
association!of!big!bands!solely!with!this!period!is!disrespectful!to!the!subsequent!
practitioners!and!detrimental!to!the!future!of!the!ensemble.!Preserving!traditions!
!
147!
and!continuing!to!innovate!are!not!at!odds!with!one!another!–!in!fact,!the!best!
innovators!in!any!tradition!draw!inspiration!from!the!masters!of!previous!
generations.!Balancing!a!deep!knowledge!of!the!ensemble’s!history!with!an!open!
mindedness!to!new!sounds!and!approaches!will!result!in!fresh,!innovative!music!
that!is!firmly!rooted!in!the!tradition!it!is!serving!to!maintain.!
! The!contemporary!big!band!scene!is!home!to!many!skilled!and!unique!
performers!and!composers,!and!while!it!exists!on!the!foundation!of!the!great!jazz!
composers!of!the!past,!the!ensemble!must!be!allowed!to!continue!to!grow!and!
change,!hosting!new!generations!of!musicians!with!highly!individual!voices.!In!an!
email!to!me,!Monika!Roscher!noted!that!while!all!human!beings!possess!a!similar!set!
of!basic!features,!we!all!have!very!different!life!experiences!to!share.!In!the!same!
way,!although!all!big!bands!contain!a!similar!set!of!instruments,!when!they!speak,!
they!speak!of!the!time!and!place!we!inhabit.29!It!is!fortunate!for!the!future!prospects!
of!the!ensemble!that!the!current!scene!is!full!of!dedicated!individuals!with!many!
new!stories!to!tell.!Some!of!these!are!included!in!the!Appendix!to!this!study,!and!
while!these!voices!have!weighed!in!on!various!topics!throughout!the!study,!it!is!
important!to!fully!share!their!unique!stories.!To!this!end,!the!interviews!are!
presented!in!their!entirety!as!windows!into!some!of!the!many!faces!of!the!
contemporary!big!band!scene.!
!
148!
CITATIONS!
(
Chapter!1!
!
1. Jim!Szantor,!“Some!Straight!Talk!about!Big!Bands,”!Down(Beat!(Apr!13,!
1972),!18.!
2. George!Simon,!“Big!Bands:!Reassessments!&!Projections,”!Down(Beat!(Jun!
2!1977),!13.!
3. Richard!Sussman!and!Michael!Abene,!Jazz(Composition(and(Arranging(in(
the(Digital(Age,!New!York:!Oxford!University!Press!(2012),!265.!
4. Bob!Mintzer,!“Big!Bands!Thrive,!with!Fans’!Help,”!Down(Beat!(Jan!2009),!
10.!
5. Alex!Stewart,!Making(the(Scene:(Contemporary(New(York(City(Big(Band(
Jazz,!LA:!University!of!California!Press!(2007),!54.!
6. Kenny!Berger,!Liner!notes!to!The(Argo,(Verve,(and(Impulse(Big(Band(Studio(
Sessions,!Oliver!Nelson,!Mosaic,!CD!(2013),!2.!
7. Ibid.!
8. Francis!Davis,!“A!Conversation!with!Charles!Tolliver,”!Liner!notes!to!
Mosaic(Select:(Charles(Tolliver,!CD!(2011),!3.!
9. Ibid.,!5.!
10. Leonard!Feather,!“East!Meets!West,!or!Never!the!Twain!Shall!Cease:!
Toshiko!Akiyoshi!&!Lew!Tabackin,”!Down(Beat!(Jun!3!1976),!16.!
11. Jack!Tracy,!Liner!Notes!to!Mosaic(Select:(Woody(Herman,!Woody!Herman,!
CD!(2008),!13.!
12. FrankiJohn!Hadley,!“My!Favorite!Big!Band!Album:!25!Essential!
Recordings,”!Down(Beat!(Apr!2010),!44.!
13. John!McDonough,!“Stan!Kenton:!Restless!Emperor!of!a!Creative!World,”!
Down(Beat!(Jun!7!1979),!16.!
14. Jim!Szantor,!“Some!Straight!Talk!about!Big!Bands,”!DownBeat!(Apr!13!
1972),!19.!
15. Ibid.!
17. Ibid.,!309.!
18. Lewis!Erenberg,!Swingin’(the(Dream:(Big(Band(Jazz(and(the(Rebirth(of(
American(Culture,!Chicago:!University!of!Chicago!Press!(1998).!
19. Harvey!Cohen,!“The!Marketing!of!Duke!Ellington:!Setting!the!Strategy!for!
an!African!American!Maestro,”!The(Journal(of(African(American(History!
89/4!(Autumn!2004):!291i315.!
20. David!Metzer,!“Shadow!Play:!the!Spiritual!in!Duke!Ellington’s!Black(and(
Tan(Fantasy,”!Black(Music(Research(Journal!Vol.!17!No.!2!(1997):!137i158.!
21. Wolfram!Knauer,!“’Simulated!Improvisation’!in!Duke!Ellington’s!Black,(
Brown(and(Beige,”!The(Black(Perspective(in(Music!Vol.!18!No.!1/2!(1990):!
20i38.!
22. Andrew!Goodrich,!“Peer!Mentoring!in!a!High!School!Jazz!Ensemble,”!!
Journal(of(Research(in(Music(Education!55/2!(2007):!94–114.!
!
149!
23. Richard!Miles!and!Ronald!Carter,!eds.,!Teaching(Music(through(
Performance(in(Jazz!(Chicago:!GIA!Publications,!2008).!
24. Rayburn!Wright,!Inside(the(Score:(a(detailed(analysis(of(8(classic(jazz(
ensemble(charts(by(Sammy(Nestico,(Thad(Jones,(and(Bob(Brookmeyer!
(Delevan,!NY:!Kendor!Music,!Inc.,!1982).!
Jazz!(Los!Angeles:!University!of!California!Press,!2007).!
1972):!18i20.!
Down(Beat!(Jun!7!1979):!16,!41,!43i4.!
28. Howard!Mandel,!“Darcy!James!Argue:!Changing!Attitudes,”!Down(Beat!
(Aug!2010):!44.!
29. Scott!Yanow,!“Backstage!with!John!Clayton,”!Down(Beat!(Dec!2000):!18.!
30. Alan!Ferber,!Personal!Interview,!May!15,!2014.!
31. Josef!Woodard,!“Gordon!Goodwin’s!Big!Phat!Band:!Swinging!Left!of!
Hollywood,”!Down(Beat!(Feb!2004):!32.!
32. Ibid.!
33. Kirk!Silsbee,!“R.I.P.!Big!Bands?!Not!in!L.A.,!Where!Large!Groups!Survive!in!
Spite!of!Tough!Economics,”!Down(Beat!(May!2007):!34.!
34. Ibid.!
35. Appendix,!228.!
36. Appendix,!173.!
37. Appendix,!217.!
Spite!of!Tough!Economics,”!Down(Beat!(May!2007):!34.!
39. Appendix,!173.!
!
Chapter!2!
!
1. Marshall!McLuhan,!Understanding(Media!(Cambridge,!MA:!MIT!Press,!
1994).!
2. Henry!Jenkins,!Sam!Ford,!and!Joshua!Green,!Spreadable(Media!(New!York:!
NYU!Press,!2013).!
3. Ibid.,!7.!
4. Lewis!Erenberg,!Swinging(the(Dream:(Big(Band(Jazz(and(the(Rebirth(of(
American(Culture!(Chicago:!University!of!Chicago!Press,!1998),!27.!
NYU!Press,!2013),!160.!
6. Ibid.,!6.!
7. Ibid.,!188.!
8. Jean!Burgess!and!Joshua!Green,!YouTube:(Online(Video(and(Participatory(
Culture!(Cambridge:!Polity!Press,!2009),!66.!
NYU!Press,!2013),!6.!
10. Ibid.,!22.!
!
150!
11. Ibid.,!2.!
NYU!Press,!2013),!60.!
14. Howard!Mandel,!““Darcy!James!Argue:!Changing!Attitudes,”!!Down(Beat!
(Aug!2010):!44.!
1972),!19.!
17. Ibid.,!14.!
18. Hannah!Karp,!“Apple!iTunes!Sees!Big!Drop!in!Music!Sales,”!The(Wall(
Street(Journal!(Oct!24,!2014).!
19. Sven!Grundberg,!“Spotify’s!Revenue!Rose!in!2013,”!The(Wall(Street(
Journal!(Nov!25,!2014).!
20. Paul!Tassi,!“The!Injustice!of!the!YouTube!Content!ID!Crackdown!Reveals!
Google’s!Dark!Side,”!Forbes!(Dec!19,!2013).!
NYU!Press,!2013),!293.!
22. Paul!de!Barros,!“Taking!Control:!Maria!Schneider!Uses!a!New!Model!to!
Distribute!her!Music,”!Down(Beat!(Nov!2004):!60.!
NYU!Press,!2013),!234i5.!
24. James!Hale,!“Dave!Holland,”!Down(Beat!(Dec!2005):!63.!
25. Marc!Bourreau,!Dogan,!and!Sounman!Hong,!“Making!Money!by!Giving!It!
for!Free:!Radiohead’s!PreiRelease!Strategy!for!In(Rainbows,”!!HKS!Faculty!
Research!Working!Paper!Series!(July!2014):!4.!
26. Ibid.!
27. Tobias!Regner!and!Javier!Barria,!“Do!Consumers!Pay!Voluntarily?!The!
Case!of!Online!Music,”!Journal(of(Economic(Behavior(&(Organization!(April!
2009):!405.!
28. Ibid.!
NYU!Press,!2013),!231.!
30. Jaron!Lanier,!You(Are(Not(a(Gadget:(A(Manifesto!(New!York:!Alfred!A.!
Knopf,!2010),!109i10.!
31. Kiri!Miller,!Playing(Along:(Digital(Games,(YouTube,(and(Virtual(
Performance!(New!York:!Oxford!University!Press,!2012),!15.!
32. Paul!de!Barros,!“Taking!Control:!Maria!Schneider!Uses!a!New!Model!to!
Distribute!her!Music,”!Down(Beat!(Nov!2004):!58.!
33. Ibid.,!60.!
34. Ibid.!
35. Ibid.!
!
151!
36. Howard!Mandel,!“’Not!for!Wimps’:!Maria!Schneider!Opens!Up!the!Studio!
Doors!to!Show!the!Arduous!but!Ultimately!Fulfilling!Process!of!Recording!
Her!New!Album,”!Down(Beat!(Jul!2007):!32.!
!
Chapter!3!
!
1. Jim!Szantor,!“Woody!Herman’s!Seminar!Scene,”!Down(Beat!(Oct!14,!
1971),!13.!
4. Appendix,!254.!
5. Leonard!Feather,!“East!Meets!West,!or!Never!the!Twain!Shall!Cease:!
Toshiko!Akiyoshi!&!Lew!Tabackin,”!Down(Beat!(Jun!3!1976),!17.!
7. Appendix,!299.!
8. Appendix,!196.!
9. Appendix,!281.!
10. Appendix,!211.!
11. Appendix,!305.!
12. Appendix,!178.!
13. Appendix,!206.!
14. Appendix,!234.!
15. Appendix,!167i8.!
16. Appendix,!306.!
17. Appendix,!273.!
19. Andrew!Rossi,!“How!American!Universities!Turned!into!Corporations,”!
Time!(May!22,!2014).!
21. Appendix,!239.!
22. Richard!Miles!and!Ronald!Carter,!eds.,!Teaching(Music(through(
Performance(in(Jazz,!Chicago:!GIA!Publications,!Inc.!(2008),!108.!
23. Bob!Mintzer,!“Big!Bands!Thrive,!with!Fans’!Help,”!Down(Beat!(Jan!2009),!
10.!
24. Appendix,!232.!
26. Appendix,!171.!
28. Appendix,!283.!
30. Appendix,!258.!
!
152!
32. Eustace!G.!Thompson,!“Addressing!Institutional!Structural!Barriers!to!
Student!Achievement,”!Race,(Gender,(&(Class!vol.!17!no.!1/2!(2010):!51i
57.!
34. Appendix,!220.!
36. Joan!Jeffri,!Changing(the(Beat:(A(Study(of(the(Worklife(of(Jazz(Musicians,!
NEA!Research!Division!Report!(2003):!7.!
38. Appendix,!172.!
39. Wynton!Marsalis,!Moving(to(Higher(Ground:(How(Jazz(Can(Change(Your(
Life,!New!York:!Random!House!(2008):!104.!
40. Appendix,!236.!
!
Chapter!4!
!
1. "Big!band,"!Grove(Music(Online,!Oxford(Music(Online,!Oxford!University!
Press,!accessed!December,!2014,!
http://www.oxfordmusiconline.com.proxy.libraries.rutgers.edu/subscrib
er/article/grove/music/J042000.!
2. Ted!Panken,!“Bare!Notes,”!Down(Beat!(Apr!2006),!49.!
3. Howard!Reich,!“Wynton’s!Decade”!Down(Beat((Dec!1992),!18.!
4. Appendix,!301.!
6. Appendix,!259.!
7. Ted!Panken,!“Bare!Notes,”!Down(Beat!(Apr!2006),!49.!
8. Dan!Ouellette,!“Next!Chapter,”!!Down(Beat!(Apr!2004),!38.!
9. Dan!Ouellette,!“Answering!the!Next!Generation:!Christian!Scott!
Interviews!Wynton!Marsalis,”!Down(Beat!(Nov!2007),!41.!
10. Ibid.,!38.!
13. Herb!Stark,!“Chords!&!Discords!–!Nostalgia!Addition,”!Down(Beat!(Mar!
2010),!10.!
14. Gordon!Webb,!“Chords!&!Discords:!Where’s!Akiyoshi?”!Down(Beat!(May!
2010),!10.!
16. John!McDonough,!“Glenn!Miller!Orchestra!@75:!The!Busiest!Band!in!
America.”!Down(Beat!(Oct!2013),!34.!
17. Ibid.,!37.!
18. Appendix,!268.!
!
153!
22. Ibid.,!286.!
23. Ibid.,!289.!
24. Jennifer!Odell,!“Bandstand!Democracy.”!Down(Beat!(Dec!2008),!41.!
25. Ted!Panken,!“Game!Changer:!Saxophonist!Ted!Nash’s!Disc!Marks!New!
Direction!for!the!Jazz!at!Lincoln!Center!Orchestra.”!Down(Beat!(Apr!
2010),!14.!
28. Jazz,!Directed!by!Ken!Burns,!2001!(Walpole,!NH:!PBS).!
29. Appendix,!179.!
Down(Beat!(Jun!7!1979),!16.!
31. George!Colligan,!“Ken!Burns!Jazz:!The!War!of!Episode!10,”!Jazz(Truth,!
September!28,!2010,!http://jazztruth.blogspot.com/2010/09/keniburnsi
jazztheiwariofiepisodei10.html!
32. Appendix,!222.!
34. Geoffrey!Himes,!“Resurrecting!a!Masterpiece:!the!Trial,!Travail!and!
Triumph!as!Sue!Mingus,!Gunther!Schuller,!Christian!McBride!and!a!31i
Piece!Orchestra!Stage!Charles!Mingus’!Epic!Composition!‘Epitaph,’”!Down(
Beat!(Sept!2007),!37.!
35. Dan!Ouellette,!“The!Baron’s!Shadow,”!Down(Beat!(Apr!2002),!25.!
37. Dan!Ouellette,!“The!Baron’s!Shadow,”!Down(Beat!(Apr!2002),!24.!
38. James!Hale,!“Review!–!Lincoln!Center!Jazz!Orchestra!with!Wynton!
Marsalis:!Don’t(Be(Afraid:(The(Music(of(Charles(Mingus,”!Down(Beat!(Dec!
2005),!55.(
39. Appendix,!175.!
40. Appendix,!312.!
42. Appendix,!224.!
43. Wynton!Marsalis,!Moving(to(Higher(Ground:(How(Jazz(Can(Change(Your(
Life,!New!York:!Random!House!(2008),!160.!
44. Appendix,!236.!
45. Appendix,!259.!
!
!
!
154!
Chapter!5!
!
1. Appendix,!220.!
2. Appendix,!286.!
3. Frank!Oteri,!“On!Her!Own:!Frank!J.!Oteri!Visits!the!Home!of!Carla!Bley!to!
Talk!About!Making!Independent!Music,”!NewMusicBox!Issue!51!(July!
2003),!3.!
4. Lewis!Porter,!“You!Can’t!Get!Up!There!Timidly,”!Music(Educators(Journal!
Vol.!71,!No.!2!(Oct!1984),!46.!
5. Ibid.,!44i5.!
6. Frank!Oteri,!“On!Her!Own:!Frank!J.!Oteri!Visits!the!Home!of!Carla!Bley!to!
Talk!About!Making!Independent!Music,”!NewMusicBox!Issue!51!(July!
2003),!8.!
7. Ibid.,!2.!
8. Lewis!Porter,!“You!Can’t!Get!Up!There!Timidly,”!Music(Educators(Journal!
Vol.!71,!No.!2!(Oct!1984),!46.!
9. David!Hajdu,!“In!Praise!of!Beautiful!Music,”!New(Republic!(June!13,!2014).!
10. Ibid.!
11. Maria!Schneider,!Liner!notes!to(Sky(Blue,!CD,!2007.!
12. Maria!Schneider,!“Maria!Discusses!‘The!Pretty!Road,’”!The!Study!Scores!
Project,!Artistshare,!www.artistshare.com.!
13. Ibid.!
14. Ethan!Iverson,!“Interview!with!Jim!McNeely,”!Do(the(M@th,!May!2011,!
https://ethaniverson.com/interviews/interviewiwithijimimcneely/!
15. Ibid.!
16. Jim!McNeely,!Web!Biography,!www.jimimcneely.com.!
17. Jim!McNeely,!Liner!notes!to!Up(From(the(Skies,!CD,!2006.!
18. Ibid.!
19. Josef!Woodard,!“Gordon!Goodwin’s!Big!Phat!Band:!Swinging!Left!of!
Hollywood,”!Down(Beat!(Feb!2004),!32.!
20. Ibid.!
Spite!of!Tough!Economics,”!Down(Beat!(May!2007),!34.!
22. Appendix,!212.!
23. Brad!Farberman,!“Darcy!James!Argue:!A!Fable!Grows!in!Brooklyn,”!Down(
Beat!(Jun!2013),!45.!
24. Fred!Kaplan,!“Darcy!James!Argue!and!his!Steampunk!Big!Band,”!
Stereophile!36/10!(Oct!2013),!128.!
25. Appendix,!173.!
26. Richard!Gehr,!“Darcy!James!Argue’s!Metal!Machine!Music,”!Village(Voice!
(May!6,!2009).!
27. Howard!Mandel,!“Darcy!James!Argue:!Changing!Attitudes,”!Down(Beat!
(Aug!2010),!44.!
28. Brad!Farberman,!“Darcy!James!Argue:!A!Fable!Grows!in!Brooklyn,”!Down!
Beat!(Jun!2013),!40.!
29. Appendix,!291.!
!
155!
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Jazz(Studies!8/1!(2012):!55i81.!
!
Schuller,!Gunther.!“Jazz!and!Composition:!the!Many!Sides!of!Duke!Ellington,!the!!
Music’s!Greatest!Composer.”!Bulletin(of(the(American(Academy(of(Arts(and((
Sciences.!Vol.!46!No.!1!(1992):!36i51.!
!
Shemaria,!Rich.!(2014,!April!18).!Personal!Interview.!
!
Shipton,!Alyn.!A(New(History(of(Jazz.!New!York:!Continuum,!2007.!
!
Schneider,!Maria.!Liner!notes!to(Sky(Blue.!CD.!2007.!
!
Schneider,!Maria.!“Maria!Discusses!‘The!Pretty!Road.’”!The!Study!Scores!Project.!!
Artistshare.!www.artistshare.com.!
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Silsbee,!Kirk.!!“R.I.P.!Big!Bands?!Not!in!L.A.,!Where!Large!Groups!Survive!in!Spite!of!!
Tough!Economics.”!!Down(Beat!(May!2007):!31i4.!
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Simon,!George.!!“Big!Bands:!Reassessments!&!Projections,”!!Down(Beat!(Jun!2!1977):!!
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Stark,!Herb.!!“Chords!&!Discords!–!Nostalgia!Addition.”!!Down(Beat!(Mar!2010):!10.!
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Steingießer,!Barbara.!!“Steffen!Schorn!und!die!Besten!aus!Südwesten.”!!Jazz(Podium!!
61/6!(Jun!2012):!13i4.!
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Stewart,!Alex.!!“Contemporary!New!York!City!Big!Bands:!Composition,!Arranging!!
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Stewart,!Alex.!!Making(the(Scene:(Contemporary(New(York(City(Big(Band(Jazz.!!Los!!
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Szantor,!Jim.!!“Woody!Herman’s!Seminar!Scene.”!!Down(Beat!(Oct!14,!1971):!13.!
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Tanaka,!Julian.!(2015,!August!1).!Email!Interview.!
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Williams,!Patrick.!!“Standards!et!Standardisation:!Sur!un!Aspect!du!Répertoire!des!!
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by(Sammy(Nestico,(Thad(Jones,(and(Bob(Brookmeyer.!!Delevan,!NY:!Kendor!!
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164!
APPENDIX(–(INTERVIEWS(WITH(CONTEMPORARY(BIG(BAND(
LEADERS,(COMPOSERS,(AND(PERFORMERS(
Helge!Albin!
Email!Interview!
July!21,!2015!
Helge(Albin(is(a(Swedish(jazz(composer(and(leader(of(the(Tolvan(Big(Band,(a(group(he(
has(led(since(the(early(1980s.(He(is(a(retired(professor(from(the(University(of(Malmö,(
and(recently(completed(a(concertElength(suite(for(big(band(and(orchestra(entitled(
“Thetris,”!commissioned(by(the(Malmö(Symphony(Orchestra.!
JS:!Why!did!you!decide!to!start!a!big!band?!And!how!has!the!experience!been!in!
terms!of!funding,!finding!players,!scheduling!performances,!etc.?!
HA:!I!did!not!start!up!a!big!band.!I!was!asked!to!take!over!Tolvan!Big!Band!as!artistic!
director!and!I!accepted!because!I!was!interested!in!renewing!the!traditional!big!
band!concept!which!in!my!opinion,!in!those!days!(30!years!ago)‚!seemed!not!
developed!any!interesting!concepts.!My!intention!was!to!integrate!the!big!band's!
sonic!capabilities!with!the!little!group!feeling!like!in!a!quintet.!To!achieve!this,!I!
needed!a!rhythm!group!that!was!used!to!playing!in!such!settings.!
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JS:!What!responsibility!(if!any)!do!current!big!bands!have!in!terms!of!preserving!
classic!big!band!charts?!Should!professional!bands!continue!to!play!classic!
arrangements!and!compositions?!
HA:!I!see!nothing!wrong!in!maintaining!tradition!but!it!does!not!lead!to!any!
development!or!renewal.!In!many!cases!it!becomes!a!trip!down!memory!lane.!
JS:!The!Tolvan!Big!Band!recordings!strike!a!wonderful!balance!between!ensemble!
cohesion!and!precision,!and!individual!sounds!and!expression.!Do!you!compose!with!
specific!players!in!mind?!Or!do!you!write!the!parts!in!a!way!that!encourages!this!
individuality!within!the!group?!
HA:!As!for!the!soloistic!elements!I!write!with!each!soloist's!special!qualities!in!mind.!
And!all!my!musicians!in!Tolvan!are!selected!to!carry!out!my!musical!concept.!One!
can!say!that!all!of!my!musicians!are!rhythmically!strong!and!have!a!great!sense!of!
expression!and!form.!Especially!important!to!me!is!that!the!brass!section!has!a!
warm,!round!sound!that!helps!the!ensemble!parts!sound!relaxed.!This,!together!with!
Tolvan’s!creative!rhythm!section!contributes!to!how!Tolvan!differs!from!traditional!
bigibandiplaying.!
JS:!How!did!the!collaboration!with!the!Malmö!Symphony!Orchestra!come!about?!
This!is!my!personal!opinion,!but!I’ve!found!that!when!jazz!musicians!work!with!
orchestras,!often!the!orchestra!sounds!out!of!place,!or!as!a!somewhat!arbitrary!
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addition.!This!is!certainly!not!the!case!with!Thetris!–!the!two!ensembles!work!
together!brilliantly.!How!did!you!approach!writing!for!two!contrasting!ensembles!
simultaneously?!
HA:!Regarding!Thetris,!I!am!impressed!and!happy!that!your!musical!analysis!is!
consistent!with!my!own!!The!reason!I!did!this!was,!exactly!as!you!say,!that!I!felt!that!
for!the!most!part,!compositions!in!this!form!were!not!specifically!successful.!My!
intent!was!that!both!groups!(big!band!and!symphony!orchestra)!would!have!equally!
significant!musical!challenges.!No!long!uninteresting!pads!in!strings!or!equally!
significant!musical!challenges.!!I!avoided!the!symphony!orchestra!would!become!a!
backing!part.!The!result!was!that!I!had!a!bunch!of!symphony!musicians!that!had!to!
use!their!full!musical!ability!and!liked!it.!Technically,!I!avoided!swing!eighths!in!the!
symphony!orchestra,!which!is!not!their!big!thing.!
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Darcy!James!Argue!
Personal!Interview!
May!10,!2014!
Darcy(James(Argue(is(a(Brooklyn(based(jazz(composer(who(leads(his(own(big(band,(
Darcy(James(Argue’s(Secret(Society.(Argue(is(known(for(his(largeEscale(works(for(big(
band,(some(of(the(only(such(works(for(the(ensemble.(He(is(also(a(Lecturer(in(Music(at(
Princeton(University.(
JS:!What!led!you!to!the!ensemble?!
DJA:!I!first!started!getting!into!writing!for!big!band!when!I!went!to!New!England!
Conservatory.!There!were!two!aspects!that!kind!of!had!a!gravitational!pull!on!my!life!
and!pulled!me!towards!this!big!band!life!that!I!didn’t!know!I!was!getting!myself!into.!
First!was!that!I!was!studying!with!Bob!Brookmeyer,!who!was!there,!and!of!course!
everyone!knows!he!was!a!fantastic!improviser,!trombonist,!and!composer!for!largei
scale!jazz!ensemble,!and!has!had!such!an!incredible!influence!on!how!a!lot!of!
contemporary!composers!are!writing.!He!was!someone!whose!music!I!discovered!at!
a!young!age!and!I!was!so!excited!to!be!able!to!pick!his!brain,!and!at!the!time!I!
imagined!that!I!would!be!talking!to!him!more!about!longiform!small!group!
composition.!At!the!time!I!started!studying!with!him,!I!had!a!working!quintet!–!your!
standard!sort!of!trumpet,!tenor!saxophone,!I!played!piano,!bass,!and!drums!–!and!I!
figured!that!was!going!to!be!my!focus.!Then!when!I!showed!up!at!NEC!and!I!thought!
I!might!write!one!or!two!big!band!charts,!I!realized!that!they!had!an!ensemble!i!a!
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jazz!composers’!orchestra!–!which!meant!that!you!could!write!for!big!band!every!
week.!You!had!access!to!a!big!band!every!week.!It!was!a!student!ensemble!that!
played!only!student!compositions,!and!so!it!would!be!all!the!composition!majors!
who!would!come!in!with!whatever!they!had!been!working!on!that!week!and!they’d!
get!to!hear!it!right!away.!I!realized!that!that’s!not!something!I’m!ever!going!to!have!
again!in!my!life!–!weekly!access!to!a!big!band,!and!also!access!to!feedback!on!my!big!
band!writing!from!one!of!the!greatest!composers!for!big!band!who!ever!lived!–!so!
that!ended!up!really!directing!me!for!those!two!years.!I!would!be!an!idiot!if!I!didn’t!
take!advantage!of!this!situation,!especially!because!one!of!the!biggest!issues!in!
writing!for!large!ensemble!–!writing!for!big!band,!orchestra,!wind!ensemble!–!is!that!
the!amount!of!time!you!spend!writing!versus!the!amount!of!time!you!spend!actually!
hearing!what!you’ve!written!is!very,!very,!very!unfavorable.!!If!you!are!a!classical!
composition!major!and!you!have!an!ambition!to!write!a!piece!for!orchestra,!most!of!
the!time!you’re!not!going!to!hear!it!played!at!all,!or!maybe!you’ll!hear!it!played!if!
you’re!a!graduate!composition!student.!It’ll!be!a!reading!session!with!the!student!
orchestra,!and!you’ll!hear!it!read!down!once.!10!minutes!with!the!orchestra,!and!
that’s!it.!That’s!your!only!experience!of!how!to!compose!for!larger!forces,!and!with!
big!band!it’s!often!the!same!thing.!You!spend!months!and!months!and!months!
writing!this!magnum!opus,!and!you!bring!it!in!to!the!student!big!band!and!it!gets!one!
very!sloppy!reading!and!then!gets!put!back!on!the!shelf.!So,!to!be!able!to!write!
something!on!Tuesday!and!bring!it!in!front!of!musicians!on!Wednesday!–!and!it!
didn’t!have!to!be!complete,!the!whole!point!of!the!group!is!you!would!bring!in!a!
sketch!or!bring!in!something!you!were!thinking!about!and!you’d!get!to!try!
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something!out!for!big!band.!Bring!it!in!and!hear!it,!and!if!it!didn’t!work!it’s!like!all!
right,!I’ll!try!something!different!next!week.!So!having!that!laboratory!was!such!a!
fantastic!experience!to!be!able!to!get!feedback!on!what!I!was!writing!from!Bob!
Brookmeyer,!because!we!would!always!have!a!lesson!the!day!after!the!jazz!
composers’!orchestra!rehearsal.!I!would!tape!it!with!my!DAT!recorder!(this!was!
before!all!these!digital!recorders),!and!then!bring!it!in!and!listen!down,!and!he!
would!quiz!me!on!“Why!did!you!voice!this!chord!this!way?”!or!“Why!doesn’t!this!last!
longer?”!or!“What!is!the!through!line?”!or!“What!is!the!narrative?”!–!all!of!these!
questions.!So!that!experience!was!really!kind!of!an!incubator!for!me!as!a!large!
ensemble!composer.!
JS:!Did!you!then!move!to!Brooklyn!and!have!this!crazy!idea!of!“Hey,!I’m!going!to!
start!a!big!band”?!
DJA:!Well,!before!I!even!moved!to!New!York,!I!was!still!living!in!Boston,!and!I!had!
graduated.!I!spent!the!year!after!I!graduated!as!a!music!copyist!in!Boston,!but!I!knew!
about!the!BMI!jazz!composers’!workshop,!which!is!a!really!important!workshop!for!
professional!jazz!composers!that!was!actually!started!by!Bob!Brookmeyer.!At!the!
time,!it!was!directed!by!Jim!McNeely!–!another!one!of!my!big!compositional!
influences!–!and!Michael!Abene,!and!it!was!completely!free.!You!just!had!to!get!
accepted!and!you!had!to!make!it!to!the!workshop!sessions.!I!was!living!in!Boston,!
but!there!were!these!very!cheap,!sort!of!sketchy!buses!going!from!Chinatown!in!
Boston!to!Chinatown!in!New!York!for!ten!bucks,!and!so!I!decided!to!try!it!out.!It!was!
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the!ideal!time:!I’ve!graduated,!I’ve!got!this!Master’s!degree!in!composition.!I!don’t!
really!know!what!I!want!to!do!with!my!life!at!this!point.!I!know!that!I!want!to!do!at!
least!a!year!of!this!BMI!jazz!composers’!workshop!before!deciding,!and!every!
Tuesday!morning,!I’d!hop!on!the!7!am!bus!to!New!York!and!just!wander!around!the!
city!a!little!bit.!Then!in!the!afternoon,!I’d!go!to!these!workshop!sessions!and!a!little!
hang!afterwards!at!a!bar!across!the!street,!and!then!hop!on!the!bus!and!head!back!to!
Boston.!Doing!that,!I!got!to!meet!a!lot!of!other!composers!–!young,!up!and!coming!
composers!–!people!like!Joseph!C.!Phillips,!Sherisse!Rogers,!and!J.!C.!Sanford,!and!got!
to!hear!their!approach!to!big!band!and!their!approach!to!dealing!with!these!same!
kinds!of!challenges,!and!kind!of!take!a!look!over!their!shoulder!at!their!scores!and!
figure!out!what!they!were!doing.!It!was!really!a!kind!of!exciting!time,!and!the!other!
benefit!was!it!introduced!me!to!people!who!were!running!bands,!who!were!starting!
their!own!big!bands!outside!of!BMI,!and!they!didn’t!appear!to!be!visibly!homeless.!
So!I!went!to!my!girlfriend!and!I!was!like,!“Okay,!how!would!you!feel!about!moving!to!
New!York,!trying!that!out!for!a!few!years,!and!seeing!how!that!goes?”!So!that’s!what!
we!did.!In!the!fall!of!2003,!we!ended!up!moving!to!New!York,!and!moving!into!a!
place!in!Carroll!Gardens,!not!far!from!here![Shapeshifter!Labs],!and!we’re!still!there.!
So!I!kind!of!got!sucked!into!this!big!band!demimonde!in!New!York!with!all!these!gigs!
like!this,!where!you!get!your!friends!together,!you!do!a!couple!of!rehearsals!at!the!
union,!come!down,!and!no!one’s!really!getting!rich!off!of!anything,!but!you!get!to!
have!a!venue!to!present!this!kind!of!music,!and!hopefully!people!come!out.!
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JS:!What!are!your!thoughts!on!the!university’s!role!in!big!band?!
DJA:!That’s!a!big!question.!The!university!has!risen!up!to!take!the!place!of!what!used!
to!be!the!scene,!and!it’s!an!essential!development,!because!there!just!isn’t!the!work!
to!learn!the!kinds!of!things!you!would!normally!learn!on!the!gig!anymore.!It!used!to!
be!that!people!like,!for!instance,!Steve!Coleman,!could!work!with!the!Thad!
Jones/Mel!Lewis!band!every!Monday!night!and!go!on!the!road!with!them!and!kind!of!
cut!his!teeth!with!a!big!band.!He’s!the!last!major!–!well,!Joe!Lovano!as!well,!also!with!
the!Mel!Lewis!band!–!but!those!are!the!last!two!major!jazz!artists!that!I!can!think!of!
that!kind!of!went!that!route!of!coming!up!in!a!big!band.!There!are!skills!you!learn!
playing!in!an!ensemble!like!that!that!you!can’t!learn!elsewhere.!Even!in!terms!of!
small!group!stuff,!the!kinds!of!apprenticeship!that!used!to!happen!–!like!Dave!
Douglas!coming!up!through!Horace!Silver’s!band!–!have!become!much!more!rare,!
just!because!there!aren’t!nearly!that!many!gigs!anymore.!The!expectation!is!that!if!
you!are!on!the!scene,!you!are!fully!formed,!that!you!have!everything!together,!and!
that!you’re!a!complete!artist.!Your!entire!identity!needs!to!be!in!place!before!you!
start!playing!gigs!because!that’s!the!expectation.!There!aren’t!those!kinds!of!gigs!
anymore!where!you!can!learn!on!the!bandstand.!There’s!not!that!same!kind!of!
opportunity!for!the!gradual!growth!and!people!coming!up!and!learning!on!the!street!
that!there!used!to!be!in!jazz,!for!better!or!for!worse.!I!think!the!new!system!excludes!
a!lot!of!people.!I!think!you!look!at!the!identity!of!who’s!graduating!from!these!jazz!
programs,!it’s!certainly!skewing!much!whiter!and!much!richer!than!it!has!been!in!
the!past,!and!that’s!a!big!issue!in!terms!of!representation.!We’re!talking!about!black!
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music!and!we’re!talking!about!much!less!representation!from!AfricaniAmerican!
artists!now,!and!part!of!that!is!because!if!you!want!a!career!in!jazz,!you!kind!of!have!
to!go!to!school!–!to!a!university!or!conservatory!program!–!and!those!programs!are!
$20,000i$30,000!a!year.!So,!what!are!the!demographics!of!the!people!who!can!afford!
that?!What!are!the!demographics!of!people!who!have!had!that!kind!of!family!
background!that!allows!them!to!get!into!the!schools!in!the!first!place?!It’s!a!big!issue,!
but!ultimately!what’s!the!alternative?!If!there!aren’t!those!gigs!and!aren’t!those!
opportunities!to!learn!on!the!bandstand,!something!has!to!take!its!place.!Academia!
has!taken!its!place,!so!I!think!everyone’s!trying!to!figure!out!how!to!make!their!
peace!with!this!situation.!Everyone’s!trying!to!figure!out!how!to!make!it!better,!how!
to!bring!more!diverse!voices!back!into!the!equation,!and!how!to!make!sure!that!
AfricaniAmericans!–!who!created!this!music!–!can!still!play!a!really!vital!voice!and!
be!represented!at!all!levels,!including!in!university!programs.!
JS:!What!do!you!see!as!the!future!of!the!ensemble,!or!what!would!you!like!to!see?!
DJA:!I’d!like!for!it!to!not!die,!and!I!don’t!think!it!will.!One!of!the!crazy!things!about!
being!in!Brooklyn!is!that!there!are!so!many!big!bands.!There’s!a!regular!Monday!
night!large!ensemble!series!at!the!Tea!Lounge.!There!are!people!who,!for!whatever!
reason,!are!driven!to!continue!to!try!to!explore!this!very!archaic!and!very!oldi
fashioned!type!of!instrumentation!and!try!to!make!it!do!new!stuff,!stuff!that!it!wasn’t!
originally!designed!to!do,!stuff!that!maybe!it’s!not!really!wellisuited!to!do.!It’s!
exciting!to!me!that!people!are!still!willing!to!try,!and!that!people!are!still!really!
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investing!in!it.!One!of!the!things!about!this!is!that!no!one!gets!into!writing!for!big!
band,!rehearsing!a!big!band,!trying!to!gig!with!a!big!band,!unless!they!really,!really!
love!it.!It!requires!such!an!extraordinary!degree!of!commitment,!in!terms!of!the!time!
it!takes!to!write!the!music,!the!time!it!takes!to!learn!the!craft!of!writing!music,!the!
time!it!takes!just!to!get!people!physically!in!the!same!room!to!rehearse!it,!and!the!
enormous!financial!drain!it!takes!to!do!these!gigs!and!pay!people!even!an!insulting!
amount!of!money.!When!you’re!paying!18!people!an!insulting!amount!of!money,!that!
adds!up,!and!it!ends!up!being!a!pretty!significant!amount!of!money!for!the!people!
who!are!trying!to!keep!this!tradition!of!big!band!writing!and!big!band!
composing/arranging!alive.!The!fact!that!so!many!people!are!willing!to!do!it!and!so!
many!musicians!are!willing!to!make!it!happen,!to!be!part!of!it,!to!do!two!rehearsals!
and!play!these!gigs!for!pocket!change,!essentially!–!it’s!inspiring!and!exciting.!
There’s!this!romanticization!of!the!starving!artist!and!I!don’t!think!artists!should!
starve!or!that!artists!should!suffer.!The!idea!that!that’s!good!for!our!art!is!not!true,!
but!at!the!same!time!there’s!something!to!the!idea!of!people!who!believe!in!
something!so!strongly!that!they!are!willing!to!make!personal!sacrifices!in!order!to!
make!it!happen,!and!big!band!is!kind!of!the!epitome!of!that.!There’s!no!one!who’s!
doing!this!who!isn’t!fully!committed!to!the!idea!of!big!band!as!a!contemporary!
venue,!as!a!setting!for!contemporary!music,!and!to!me!that’s!so!exciting!that!there!
are!people!who!believe!in!it!so!strongly.!It’s!inspiring!for!me!to!hear!other!people!in!
the!same!orbit!just!trying!to!make!a!go!of!it,!trying!to!take!this!prehistoric!musical!
beast!and!teach!it!new!tricks.!
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Carla!Bley!
Email!Interview!
July!17,!2015!
Carla(Bley(is(a(jazz(pianist(and(one(of(the(first(major(women(jazz(composers.(She(
cofounded(the(Jazz(Composer’s(Orchestra(in(1965(with(Michael(Mantler,(and(is(known(
for(her(1968(jazz(opera(for(vocalists(and(big(band,(“Escalator(Over(the(Hill.”(Bley(
continues(to(compose(and(perform(with(her(own(big(band.(
JS:!What!sparked!your!interest!in!writing!for!big!band?!
CB:!In!the!late!1950s!I!worked!as!a!cigarette!girl!at!Birdland.!!The!Count!Basie!band!
was!often!in!residence!there,!and!it!was!a!golden!time!for!that!band!and!its!writers.!!
Neil!Hefti,!Ernie!Wilkins,!Frank!Foster,!Thad!Jones!and!a!few!other!composers!and!
arrangers!opened!me!to!the!possibilities!in!big!band!writing.!
JS:!You!are!a!pioneer!in!the!field!of!artistiowned!independent!record!labels.!With!all!
of!the!new!technologies!available!for!the!recording!and!distribution!of!music,!do!you!
think!selfiproduction!and!crowdfunding!are!viable!ways!forward!for!artists!whose!
work!falls!outside!of!mainstream!popular!music?!
CB:!Yes,!I!do.!!The!need!for!an!independent,!inclusive!music!distribution!service!has!
been!supplanted!by!the!possibilities!you!mention.!!But!I!should!add!that!artists!
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outside!the!mainstream!still!need!to!connect!with!each!other,!by!whatever!means!
exist.!
JS:!What!responsibility!do!current!big!bands!have!in!terms!of!preserving!classic!big!
band!charts?!How!would!you!balance!the!continued!performance!of!these!tunes!
with!fostering!new!approaches!to!the!genre!and!the!individual!creativity!of!the!
players?!
CB:!Balancing!preservation!and!innovation!is!difficult,!but!essential.!!This!balance!
should!exist!at!all!levels,!from!within!ensemble!players!and!soloists!to!writers!and!
band!directors.!!The!best!"classical"!orchestras!often!program!new!music!in!
conjunction!with!traditional!repertoire.!!!
JS:!The!big!band!has!become!a!site!of!musical!postmodernism,!in!that!contemporary!
works!for!the!ensemble!engage!known!sound!symbols!–!be!it!a!specific!tune,!
rhythmic!feel,!texture,!etc.!–!and!often!manipulate!expectations!and!shift!meanings!
in!a!wryly!playful!manner!(In!your!own!work,!I!have!Looking!for!America!and!
Appearing!Nightly!in!mind).!Do!you!think!this!dialectic!between!composer!and!
sound!symbol!is!what!gives!the!music!its!deeper!power!(mirroring!the!obvious!sonic!
power!of!the!ensemble)?!
CB:!I!assume!you're!talking!about!the!use!of!irony!in!music.!!This!is!dangerous.!!
Everyone!needs!a!bit!of!fun,!but!music!is!a!deadly!serious!game.!!I!think!music's!
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"deeper!power,"!as!you!put!it,!resides!within!the!notes!themselves,!regardless!of!
attitude!or!perspective.!
JS:!This!last!question!is!one!I’ve!been!asking!everyone.!What!do!you!see!in!the!future!
for!big!band?!Or!what!would!you!like!to!see?!
CB:!I!am!hopeful!that!big!bands!will!in!some!way!reiconnect!with!a!broader!public.!!
More!and!more,!bands!seem!to!exist!only!within!systems!of!support:!schools,!radio!
stations,!government!institutions.!
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Michael!Breaux!
Personal!Interview!
February!7,!2014!
Michael(Breaux(is(a(multiEinstrumentalist(and(music(educator(who(leads(the(Music(
Education(Jazz(Ensemble(at(New(York(University.(Breaux(has(been(a(music(educator(
for(more(than(twenty(years,(and(is(an(active(studio(musician.(
JS:!Tell!me!about!your!background,!how!you!got!into!big!band!music,!some!of!your!
favorite!artists,!etc.!
MB:!Sure.!I!was!lucky!enough!to!have!a!mom!and!dad!who!had!music!on!all!the!time!
in!the!house.!We!had!a!monaural!radio,!and!KPEL!1440!AM!was!what!we!listened!to.!
It!was!some!pop!–!you!know,!“Is!That!All!There!Is?”!–!but!a!few!pieces!that!I!latched!
onto!came!from!that!experience,!as!well!as!my!mom!and!dad!buying!the!Time!Life!
Jazz!Series:!The!Big!Band!Era!1940i43.!One!of!the!pieces!that!I!fell!in!love!with!was!
“The!Song!of!the!Volga!Boatmen,”!the!Bill!Finegan!arrangement.!How!could!I!not!
love!that?!It!just!came!about!at!a!time!when!I!started!playing!music!–!my!parents!
bought!a!piano,!so!I!started!picking!out!songs!and!composing.!Then,!my!first!band!
director,!Earl!Parquette,!was!a!Dixieland!trombone!player,!and!he!just!pointed!at!me!
and!said,!“You’re!going!to!be!a!trombone!player,”!because!I!could!pat!my!head!and!
rub!my!stomach,!and!you!know,!whatever.!My!mom!said,!“Absolutely!not.!He’s!going!
to!get!braces.”!“Okay,!you’re!going!to!be!a!clarinet!player.”!So!I!started!on!the!
clarinet,!and!the!first!semester,!out!of!the!first!division!band!method!–!let’s!say!it’s!
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“Crusader’s!March”!–!it’s!just!a!regular!old!fifth!grade!band!piece.!At!the!concert,!Earl!
Parquette!picks!up!his!trombone!and!plays!a!Dixieland!solo!over!the!top.!I!was!
hooked.!I!had!to!learn!how!to!do!that.!When!I!continued!through!school,!Earl!ended!
up!going!to!the!high!school,!and!we!had!a!clarinet!player,!George!Wimberley,!who!
was!a!Dixieland!player.!All!these!guys!knew!each!other.!They!were!all!band!mates.!
From!him,!I!learned!a!little!bit!about!what!to!do,!doing!some!throat!gliss,!making!
some!fun!stuff.!I!picked!up!bassoon!and!started!tenor!saxophone!under!George.!My!
brother!was!a!year!older!–!he!was!a!freshman!in!high!school!when!I!started!hanging!
around!the!band!–!and!Earl!Parquette,!who!was!then!the!band!director!at!the!high!
school,!said,!“Look,!Mikey,”!–!which!is!what!he!called!me!–!“You!want!to!play!jazz,!
you!go!study!with!Santy!Runyan.!Santy!Runyan’s!shop!was!about!as!far!as!from!here!
[Harlem]!to!the!bridge!in!the!Bronx!from!my!mom!and!dad’s!house,!and!he!was!the!
first!teacher!that!I!ever!had!who!was!one!of!those!pay!it!forward!kind!of!people.!He!
took!no!money,!and!he!really!took!an!interest!in!me.!He!made!me!mouthpieces!and!
never!charged!me!for!them,!until!much!later.!He!was!seminal!in!helping!me!
understand,!“These!are!tunes!you!need!to!know,!these!are!players!you!need!to!listen!
to.!And!come!to!the!back!door!of!Toby’s!Oak!Grove,!have!your!mom!and!dad!drop!
you!off!at!9:00.!They!can!stay!there,!and!we’ll!bring!you!in!and!let!you!play!on!the!
bandstand.”!So!in!front!of!all!these!drunken!customers,!I!was!playing!“Stella!by!
Starlight”!on!my!tenor!saxophone,!and!they!went!wild.!That!was!the!first!time!I!got!a!
taste!of!it!–!doing!it!myself!–!and!it!snowballed.!Every!one!of!the!teachers!that!I!had!
played!jazz.!They!improvised.!They!had!a!freedom!about!them!that!they!never!
talked!about,!they!just!demonstrated,!because!it!was!never!questioned.!It!was!what!
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they!did.!It!was!as!much!as!speaking!Cajun!French!or!English,!you!just!did!it.!I!loved!
the!energy!of!it.!I!guess!I!loved!it!because!it!was!also!one!of!those!things!that!there!
was!nobody!else!playing!your!parts,!so!you!were!alone!on!yours!and!you!could!make!
it!happen.!Then!I!learned!to!pick!up!flute,!and!that!was!cool.!
In!my!freshman!year!in!high!school!–!1973!–!the!high!school!big!band!took!a!trip!to!
Thibodeaux,!Louisiana,!out!in!the!boonies.!At!the!civic!center!was!the!Stan!Kenton!
big!band,!and!they!did!a!clinic!with!us.!I!got!to!meet!Pete!Erskine,!Roy!Reynolds,!Stan!
Kenton,!Mike!Vax,!and!all!of!these!amazing!players,!and!they!were!normal!people;!
really!nice,!cool!people!who!did!amazing!things.!Then!we!heard!them!play,!and!it!
was!just!amazing!that!this!group!of!people!could!come!together!and!scream!at!you,!
and!whisper,!and!bring!you!to!such!heights.!“Malagueña”!–!I!had!never!heard!
anything!like!that!in!my!life.!So!those!seminal!instances!brought!by!teachers!who!
were!important!to!me!–!there!were!three!moments.!One!of!them!was!at!home,!when!
I!heard!“Girl!from!Ipanema”!or!“One!Note!Samba”!or!one!of!those!from!that!Antonio!
Carlos!Jobim!and!Stan!Getz!album.!It!was!not!out!yet,!so!it!was!probably!1964!or!
1965,!and!I!had!to!get!this!album,!and!it!was!killing!me!that!I!couldn’t!get!it.!Finally,!I!
got!it!and!wore!the!grooves!out!of!it,!bought!another!and!wore!the!grooves!out!of!it.!I!
learned!every!tune,!every!improvisation,!all!the!squeaks!that!Stan!Getz!had.!That!
was!the!first!sound!of!saxophone!that!I!had!in!my!ear.!The!lyricism,!the!melodic!
ideas,!the!humor,!the!joy!–!I!had!no!idea!about!the!suffering!and!the!pain!that!he!had!
gone!through!at!that!point.!Bossa!nova!affected!me.!I!know!I!danced!my!little!
prepubescent!dance!in!the!bedroom!with!my!tenor!saxophone!–!door!closed!so!
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nobody!could!see!me.!It!changed!me.!And!then!not!much!later,!I!heard!a!Phil!Woods!
and!Michel!Legrand!album,!titled!“Images,”!which!won!a!Grammy!in!1976,!and!it!
was!the!second!side!of!the!album!–!the!whole!thing!was!like!a!direct!to!disc!big!band!
thing!with!Michel!playing!piano!with!Phil!Woods.!In!3rd!North![the!building!that!
houses!the!NYU!Jazz!Department],!that!album!is!on!a!shelf,!and!it!says,!“To!Dave:!
when!in!doubt,!use!chromatics,”!and!it’s!that!album,!and!it!has!all!that!stuff:!whole!
tones,!diminished!patterns,!it’s!basically!all!the!techniques.!It!was!at!that!point!that!I!
thought,!“Oh!my!god,!the!stuff!that!I’m!trying!to!practice,!he’s!using!effortlessly.!
Maybe!I!could!do!that.”!It!started!to!dawn!on!me!that!this!was!a!vocabulary,!this!was!
a!language!that!people!used,!and!again!the!energy!of!it,!the!joy,!the!wild!
abandonment!was!like!a!drug.!It!was!something!I!wanted!to!taste!again,!and!I!fell!in!
love!with!that!energy!and!that!sound.!Now!at!the!same!time!I!was!probably!playing!
at!the!University!of!Southwest!Louisiana!in!the!orchestra,!and!in!concert!bands,!and!
it!was!okay.!We!also!did!marching!band,!and!that!was!kind!of!cool,!but!for!me!it!
always!came!back!to!the!big!band.!People!would!say,!“What!is!your!favorite!kind!of!
music?”!and!it!has!always!been!jazz!and!big!band!music.!Then!I!went!to!LSU,!and!on!
one!of!my!drives!–!I!know!exactly!where!I!was!–!this!band!came!on,!and!I!had!never!
heard!anything!like!it!before.!It!was!Toshiko!Akiyoshi’s!big!band!playing!the!title!cut!
of!one!of!her!first!albums,!“Long!Yellow!Road.”!I!pulled!the!car!over!and!just!
stopped.!The!car!was!sitting!in!the!ditch,!and!I!was!just!in!awe.!Dick!Spencer’s!lead!
playing!was!so!gorgeous,!and!at!LSU!when!I!got!a!chance!to!play!lead!alto,!a!lot!of!
them!would!say,!“ah,!Dick!Spencer,”!and!we!ended!up!doing!“Tuning!Up”!and!all!
those!tunes.!But!again,!it!came!down!to!people!and!music!that!connected.!Why?!It!
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spoke!to!me.!Grand!Funk!Railroad!didn’t!really!speak!to!me.!Led!Zeppelin!didn’t!
speak!to!me,!although!they!spoke!to!my!brother,!and!he!would!bash!the!hell!out!of!
the!drums.!I!would!get!off!on!lines,!and!for!a!while!I!got!away!from!that!and!wanted!
to!do!more!of!a!free!thing.!I!remember!coming!back!and!playing!with!Santy!at!one!of!
his!birthday!parties,!and!Harry!St.!Pierre,!who!was!the!consummate!bop!player,!in!
the!lineage!of!Chet!Baker!and!all!those!guys,!and!he!would!say,!“Yeah,!that’s!all!
bullshit!that!you’re!playing.!You!gotta!play!lines.”!I’ve!never!thought!about!what!
came!out!of!me!other!than!whether!it!was!right,!but!I!began!to!ask,!“Am!I!telling!the!
right!story?”!I’ve!had!a!lot!of!mentors!and!people!who!have!been!coaxing!me,!
cajoling!me,!showing!me!through!example!what!they!do.!At!LSU,!I!was!in!the!
marching!band.!I!was!drum!major.!I!wrote!arrangements.!I!wrote!drill.!I!was!in!the!
big!band.!I!played!alto.!I!played!tenor.!I!doubled!on!all!the!flute/piccolo!parts.!I!did!
recording!sessions.!I!eventually!took!lessons!on!all!the!woodwinds,!brass,!and!
percussion,!and!took!juries!on!them.!So!I!really!wanted!to!know!the!inside!of!each!of!
the!instruments!to!the!best!of!my!ability!because!I!knew!at!some!point!I!would!
probably!want!to!teach.!But!playing!was!still!there,!and!I!didn’t!yet!really!know!how!
much!I!wanted!to!teach.!I!also!got!into!the!Baton!Rouge!Symphony,!where!I!played!
second!to!my!teacher!on!bassoon,!and!learned!a!lot!about!what!it!meant!to!be!a!
professional!musician!in!the!setting!of!a!professional!ensemble.!My!lessons!were!
there.!I!ended!up!following!him!once!he!retired,!playing!principal!for!a!season.!I!also!
played!in!the!Foxtrot!Orchestra,!the!big!band,!the!recording!orchestra,!the!ballet!
orchestra,!all!of!that,!which!set!me!up!to!go!to!Yale,!where!I!studied!with!Arthur!
Weisburg!on!bassoon!and!did!not!do!any!jazz!for!at!least!a!year.!At!that!point,!the!
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Chamber!Orchestra!of!New!England!came!about,!and!I!ended!up!doing!some!
bassoon!work!with!them.!There!were!two!bassoonists!that!were!already!there,!so!I!
was!a!sub,!but!every!now!and!then!they!wanted!a!jazz!thing!to!happen,!and!that’s!
when!I!started!getting!back!into!jazz!and!making!it!happen.!I!got!into!the!big!bands!
around!New!Haven,!doing!the!recording!sessions!and!getting!to!know!those!people,!
and!just!got!into!the!scene.!And!it’s!been!through!the!jazz!people,!I!have!to!say,!
where!I!made!the!deepest!connections.!It!was!a!lack!of!ego!and!a!sense!of,!“Yeah,!
man,!you!play!great.!Come!on!”!I!didn’t!really!get!that!from!the!classical!community,!
because!I!wasn’t!trusted,!I!was!a!jazzer,!that!dichotomy!seemed!to!exist.!Every!
institution!that!we!know!has!that,!but!it’s!virile,!it’s!an!animus!about!not!being!able!
to!do!that,!so!I’ll!hold!you!down!so!I!can!push!myself!up.!Again,!it!goes!back!to!every!
one!of!the!musicians!that!I!hold!in!esteem!and!have!worked!with.!Music!is!music!is!
music,!period.!Rereading!Kenny![Werner’s]!book!about!getting!in!touch!with!the!
first!time!you!touched!that!instrument,!that!childhood!dream!when!you!got!it,!and!I!
remember!that!prepubescent!me!with!my!PJ!bottoms,!dancing!around!with!my!
tenor!with!the!joy!that!I!knew!how!to!play!it.!When!I!got!an!alto!for!the!first!time,!it!
was!like,!“Oh!my!God,!Take!5!!I!know!everything!about!it.!I!can!follow!every!nuance!
with!Paul!Desmond.”!So!for!me!it’s!about!having!the!ability!in!my!diverse!number!of!
voices,!and!personalities!maybe.!I!don’t!know,!maybe!I’m!a!little!schizo,!but!I!need!to!
have!those!different!voices!to!say!everything,!and!I’ve!been!really!happy!with!it.!
JS:!The!classical/jazz!divide!is!something!I’ve!been!thinking!about!lately.!Jazz!is!at!a!
point!where!it!has!been!lifted!to!the!level!where!it’s!vying,!along!with!classical,!for!
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the!top!spot!of!art!music.!It’s!also!interesting!to!note!that!the!training!of!classical!
musicians!has!changed!so!much,!especially!with!regard!to!improvisation!–!two!of!the!
greatest!improvisers!who!ever!lived!were!Mozart!and!Bach.!So!there’s!a!strange!
tension!there,!and!there’s!a!related!issue!that!Wynton!Marsalis!brings!up!of!the!fear!
of!creating!cookie!cutter!musicians!in!jazz,!so!how!do!you!balance!learning!the!style!
“properly”!while!at!the!same!time!emphasizing!the!personal!expression,!the!
interpretation,!the!active!participation,!and!how!do!you!keep!some!of!the!older!
tunes!active!without!becoming!fossilized?!
MB:!I’ll!try!to!answer!both!questions!at!once.!I’ll!do!a!mash!of!things.!I!was!given!a!
series!of!role!models!from!Lillian!Paulang,!my!first!piano!teacher,!and!my!band!
teachers.!Every!one!of!those!teachers!had!something!missing!from!their!personality.!
There!was!a!fear!of!improvising,!a!fear!of!stylistic!variations!that!came!away!from!
the!classic!Western!canon.!Even!John!Patterson.!I!will!never!forget,!one!day!we!went!
out,!and!there!was!a!bar!in!downtown!Baton!Rouge,!Chris’!Bar,!where!they!had!75!
cent!goblets!of!beer!–!they!were!huge!–!and!I!know!we!had!three.!We!went!back!to!
his!office!and!he!picked!up!his!saxophone,!and!on!his!Selmer!C!Star,!with!probably!a!
4!reed,!started!playing!Paul!Desmond,!and!I!swore!to!God!that!Paul!Desmond!was!in!
that!room.!Like!me,!he!had!invested!himself!to!the!point!where!he!really!wanted!to!
emulate!in!the!phrase,!in!the!texture,!in!the!nuances,!but!it!was!about!being!honest!
with!himself.!He!had!severe!issues!with!performance!anxiety,!and!he!helped!me!do!
transcendental!meditation,!but!to!release!that!fear,!to!pull!the!lens!back!far!enough!
so!that!you!were!looking!at!yourself!in!the!third!person!and!not!having!to!do!
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quaaludes!or!LSD!or!shrooms!to!do!it.!The!problem!with!classical!music!is!that!you!
can’t!do!that,!you!can’t!play!with!it.!There’s!something!about!that!energy.!I!
questioned!whether!I!had!lived!as!a!musician!in!Harlem!during!the!1940s,!am!I!that!
close!to!that!energy!that!it’s!just!like!grooves!on!a!record,!that!they!get!so!close!that!
they!overlap.!There’s!some!energy!of!a!former!life!touching!and!saying,!“Come!on,!
baby.!Come!back!to!it.”!Maybe!that’s!too!metaphysical,!but!there’s!something!pulling!
me.!When!I!heard!Bill!Chase’s!band,!I!was!changed,!and!it!wasn’t!just!all!the!pot!I!
inhaled!at!his!concert,!I!was!changed.!How!could!a!band!do!that?!Bring!people!to!
another!state!of!consciousness,!you!know.!Getting!to!hear!Louis!Armstrong!in!New!
Orleans,!getting!to!hear!the!Woody!Herman!band!in!New!Orleans,!getting!to!see!
Maynard!Ferguson!traveling!–!we!don’t!have!that!anymore.!No!longer!are!those!
progenitors!of!that!art!form!still!on!the!road.!Who!do!we!have?!Gordon!Goodwin,!
we’ve!got!the!guys!here!at!Columbus!Circle,!but!we!don’t!have!anybody!really!going!
out!and!traveling,!and!I!know!it!speaks!to!people.!We!went!to!the!jazz!festival!at!
Wilton!last!year,!and!it!spoke!to!people.!Why!don’t!we!have!more!improvisers?!I!
think!it!stems!back!to!the!fact!that!if!you!can’t!do!it,!you!can’t!teach!it.!You!can’t!
exemplify!it.!You!can’t!bring!the!joy!of!it,!because!if!you!can’t!do!it,!you’re!going!to!
bring!fear!no!matter!how!much!you!try.!I!am!not!the!world’s!greatest!improviser,!
but!I!have!a!lot!of!joy!about!it!and!I!want!to!provide!for!my!students!in!all!of!my!
ensembles,!even!in!the!concert!band,!the!space!to!explore!who!they!are,!to!explore!
why!they!are!there.!From!the!very!first!audition!that!I!had!for!the!concert!band!and!
jazz!ensemble,!every!single!person!wanted!to!be!there!and!play!their!instrument.!
That’s!a!fabulous!place!to!be.!Now!if!we!could!take!those!ensembles!on!the!road,!we!
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would!deepen!that!experience!because!we!would!find!out!about!everybody!–!good,!
bad,!and!ugly!–!and!that’s!okay.!There’s!that!trust,!there’s!that!inevitable!ability!to!
say,!“Okay,!I!give!up.!You!know!me.”!And!then!you!start!saying,!“Wow,!that!didn’t!
hurt.”!Is!there!an!issue!in!the!jazz!world!about!being!gay?!Yeah.!Gary!Burton!just!
came!out!with!a!book!and!really!has!been!realizing!that!issue,!so!for!me!that’s!
something.!There’s!a!wall!between!the!guys!who!are!“normal”!and!the!gay!guy.!
Sonny!Costanzo!had!a!little!problem!with!that,!but!I!pulled!his!ass!out!of!a!fire!in!a!
recording!session!here.!I!came!in!just!to!play!bassoon!on!some!charts!for!Marlene!
VerPlanck!–!her!husband,!Billy,!did!all!the!charts,!and!they’re!great.!Jim!McNeely!was!
on!that!chart.!It!was!everybody!I!knew.!But!Jim!Lawson,!the!guy!who!was!playing!the!
low!reed!book,!was!not!cutting!it.!He!was!stiff!on!a!stick.!So!Sal!came!up!to!me!–!not!
Sonny!–!Sal!came!and!said,!“Hey!Mike,!do!you!think!you!could!dub!in!those!parts?”!I!
said,!“Yeah,!how!long!do!I!have?”!“Well,!we!got!a!lunch!break.”!I!said,!“Sure,!how!
many!charts?”!He!said,!“All!of!them.”!“I!don’t!have!my!horns.”!He!says,!“Well,!do!you!
mind!playing!his?”!So!I!went!and!played!them,!and!he!had!some!different!reeds,!but!I!
worked!it!out,!and!said,!“Fine.”!So!I!sat!there!while!everybody!else!was!eating!lunch!
and!dubbed!in!all!the!tracks!in!one!take.!Now!what!did!that!prove!to!me?!That!the!
classical!sightireading,!being!prepared,!being!able!to!lay!shit!down!was!important.!I!
also!did!shows,!and!I!didn’t!get!to!blow!any!jazz,!but!being!part!of!a!section!was!
okay.!Then!when!they!came!back,!Jim!said,!“Hey,!do!you!mind!playing!the!rest?”!I!
said,!“No.!Am!I!going!to!make!any!more!money!on!this?”!And!Sonny!looked!back!and!
said,!“Yeah,!kid.”!So!we!have!to!work!harder!to!prove!ourselves.!I!have!a!funny!
feeling!that!if!you!interview!Toshiko,!she!had!to!work!three!or!four!times!harder!
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than!any!man!to!make!it!happen.!I!think!that!tenacity!is!an!important!component!of!
it,!a!deep!knowledge!that!you!can!do!this,!despite!the!fact!that!there’s!this!thing!on!
your!shoulder!saying,!“You’re!going!to!fucking!fail.”!The!other!thing!is!just!saying!
“Yes”!with!a!smile!on!your!face,!and!letting!people!enjoy!you!and!enjoy!the!hang.!
That’s!huge.!Classical!players!not!as!much,!but!with!jazz!players!it’s!about!the!hang.!I!
know!of!one!violinist!in!New!Haven!–!we!started!a!conductoriless!orchestra!–!his!
name!is!Netta!Hadari.!He!can!play!anything!–!gorgeous!Paganini,!he!can!do!Lalo,!and!
he’ll!start!playing!“Giant!Steps,”!and!the!transition!is!effortless.!I!hold!him!in!
incredibly!high!esteem,!because!for!him!it’s!music,!it’s!not!a!style!for!which!he!has!to!
be!afraid!of!anything!or!protective!of!something,!it’s!music,!it’s!his!voice,!and!he!
works!a!lot.!So!I!hope!I!covered!all!of!it.!
JS:!I!feel!that!as!Americans,!we!have!a!different!relationship!with!classical!music!
than!Europeans!do.!For!instance,!there’s!the!two!Strauss!albums!that!the!Vienna!Art!
Orchestra!did!where!they’ve!jazzed!up!the!waltzes,!and!I!feel!like!they!have!a!much!
more!comfortable!relationship!with!it.!When!classical!music!arrived!in!the!United!
States,!it!was!already!fully!formed…!
MB:!Absolutely.!That’s!an!interesting!perspective.!When!we’ve!gone!to!recitals,!
Reggie!and!I,!at!the!University!of!Illinois,!I!have!a!hard!time!going!to!a!bassoon!
recital!because!it’s!so!specific,!and!it!says!only!a!few!things.!I!go!to!support!students,!
I!go!to!support!colleagues,!but!he!said,!“I!don’t!find!any!joy!in!it,”!and!it!would!be!
interesting!to!hear!what!spouses!who!are!brought!to!these!things!have!to!say!about!
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it.!We!went!to!Yoshi’s!in!San!Francisco!and!caught!Poncho!Sanchez,!and!his!
statement!was!“That!was!perhaps!one!of!the!best!things!we’ve!ever!seen,!musically.”!
It!spoke!to!us,!it!was!so!real,!it!was!alive.!It!wasn’t!distant!and!of!the!15th!or!16th!
century.!It!wasn’t!purported!to!be!something!that!we!should!like,!we!just!liked!it.!If!
arts!organizations!did!not!get!federal!funding!and!state!funding!and!private!grants,!
the!arts!scene!in!the!United!States!would!be!in!worse!shape!than!it!is,!and!that!alone!
is!forcing!programming!people,!directors!of!music!organizations,!to!rethink!the!
paradigm.!The!beauty!of!it!is!that!the!old!crowd!that!was!very!much!against!playing!
jazz!–!and!my!saxophone!and!bassoon!teacher,!John!Patterson,!said,!“You!can’t!be!
everything!to!everything.!You!have!to!pick!one!to!be!good!at.”!And!I!sort!of!did,!but!I!
tried!to!always!do!the!doubling,!Broadway,!and!soundtrack!work!at!a!very!high!
level.!Now!that!I’m,!at!55,!one!of!the!older!guys,!and!younger!people!have!had!the!
experience!of!interactions!with!me,!I’ve!brought!my!students!to!recording!sessions,!
to!pit!orchestras,!to!big!band!concerts,!to!sit!on!stage!with!me.!I!did!a!session!in!
Oakdale!with!Michael!Favreau,!a!freshman!my!first!year!of!teaching!–!he!played!
second!tenor!and!I!played!lead!alto!for!Johnny!Mathis.!What!a!joy.!What!a!joy!to!play!
with!students!who!now!have!become!friends,!peers,!equals!in!a!way,!and!in!many!
ways!he!probably!plays!better!than!I!do.!I!think!the!influences!of!those!who!bring!
that!joy,!who!say,!“Come!on!guys,!let’s!have!fun.!Don’t!worry!about!it,”!as!opposed!to!
“Das!ist!verboten!”!Then!they!say,!“Okay,!I’ll!dip!my!toes!in!it.”!And!the!moment!they!
get!it,!the!moment!the!heroin!metaphorically!hits!the!bloodstream,!you’re!sold.!And!
for!everyone!it’s!different.!I!don’t!find!hipihop!and!rap!anywhere!near!appealing,!
and!I’ve!thought!a!lot!about!it.!I!was!listening!to!Kenny!Baron!and!Stan!Getz’!“People!
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Time,”!and!it’s!about!lines,!it’s!about!this!wonderful!conversation.!Piano!and!tenor,!
that’s!it.!I!listened!back!to!a!concert!I!played,!and!Gary!Bennett!was!playing!tenor!
and!I!was!playing!bari,!and!it!was!“It!Don’t!Mean!a!Thing!(If!it!Ain’t!Got!that!Swing).”!
And!he!ends!his!solo,!and!I!pick!up!from!where!he!left!off,!and!it!was!one!of!those!
moments!when!the!entire!section!was!cheering.!We!were!in!it.!You’re!involved.!
You’re!in!the!moment,!and!I!think!that’s!what!we!all!chase,!trying!to!be!in!that!
moment.!Casals!was!asked!why!he!keeps!practicing!at!his!age,!and!he!said,!“Well,!I!
think!I’m!getting!better.”!Santy!Runyan,!‘til!the!day!he!died,!was!practicing,!and!he’d!
say,!“Man,!I!just!came!up!with!this!gorgeous!turnaround!thing!with!whole!tones,”!
and!I!just!saw!him!as!a!12!year!old!kid,!and!he!was!94.!I!want!to!be!like!that,!to!still!
have!that!joy,!that!spirit!of!inquisitiveness!and!exploration,!and!not!to!be!so!
conservative,!so!cloistered!in!my!beliefs,!and!I!want!my!students!to!feel!the!same!
way.!I!don’t!want!to!have!them!sound!like!me,!but!have!them!sound!better!than!me,!
and!hopefully!I!can!learn!from!them.!So!I’m!hopeful!that!both!the!classical!and!jazz!
music!scenes!become!vital,!because!we’re!important,!we’re!vital!to!listeners,!we!
develop!a!cadre!of!people!for!whom!this!music!is!important,!and!that!we!don’t!do!
what!has!often!been!the!case,!and!I’m!paraphrasing!E.!M.!Forster:!“To!confuse!what’s!
impressive!with!what’s!important.”!I!listen!to!some!of!these!big!band!charts!–!
“Malagueña,”!the!recording,!how!long!will!people!listen!to!that?!Pick!any!kind!of!
thing!from!Mackelmore!and!Lewis,!and!how!long!will!people!listen!to!that?!They’re!
very!different,!and!maybe!I’m!being!a!little!too!much!of!a!curmudgeon,!but!there’s!
some!music!that!connects!to!people,!and!I!think!whether!it’s!classical,!or!Broadway,!
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or!whatever,!you!find!that!voice!and!you!work!towards!making!that!art!form!the!
best!possible.!
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Billy!Drewes!
Personal!Interview!
May!20,!2014!
(Billy(Drewes(is(a(jazz(performer(whose(primary(instruments(include(saxophone,(flute,(
and(clarinet.(Drewes(has(been(featured(on(more(than(one(hundred(recordings,(and(has(
been(a(member(of(the(Vanguard(Jazz(Orchestra(since(1990((formerly(the(Thad(
Jones/Mel(Lewis(Orchestra).(
JS:!Tell!me!a!little!bit!about!how!you!got!into!music,!and!your!experiences!with!big!
band.!
BD:!I!guess!I!have!to!go!back!to!one!of!my!first!influences:!my!dad.!He!played!piano.!
He!wasn’t!a!professional!musician,!but!he!could!have!been.!He!could!really!entertain!
a!crowd,!better!than!I!can!playing!music!alone.![laughs]!I!could!probably!do!tap!
dancing!and!entertain!alone!better!than!music.!Having!him!around!the!house,!he!
would!play!standards!all!the!time,!his!way!of!playing!them.!He!had!a!thing.!Just!
hearing!that!was!great.!We!always!had!a!piano,!and!my!brother,!who!is!3!½!years!
older,!started!playing.!He’s!a!great!trumpet!player,!Glenn!Drewes.!He!took!up!piano!
first,!so!that!sound!was!around!the!house.!He!actually!took!lessons,!and!then!he!
added!the!trumpet!later.!So!soon!after!he!started!playing!trumpet,!it!was!like,!“Well,!
what!do!you!want!to!play,!Billy?”!And!I!was!like,!“Not!the!trumpet,!I!guess.!How!
about!clarinet?”!So!I!started!on!the!clarinet,!which!was!a!nice!thing!for!doubling.!
People!always!ask,!“Did!you!play!clarinet!first?”!and!I!say,!“Yeah.”!Not!that!there’s!a!
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specific!advantage!to!it,!but!it’s!a!little!quirkier.!With!the!saxophone,!you!can!maul!it,!
you!can!hit!it!hard,!you!know.![laughs]!So!I!eventually!added!the!saxophone!to!it.!My!
father!came!home!with!a!saxophone.!It!was!silver,!looked!like!an!alto,!and!I!said,!
“Dad,!I!think!this!thing’s!out!of!tune!or!something.”!It!turned!out!to!be!a!C!Melody,!
which!I!wish!I!still!had,!because!it!was!an!old!Conn.!He!said,!“Oh,!I’ll!take!it!back!and!
we’ll!get!an!alto.”!So!just!having!music!around!the!house!was!great.!My!brother!and!I!
would!play!tunes!with!my!dad!–!standards,!which!helped!getting!and!playing!gigs,!
you!know.!As!teenagers,!we!were!out!doing!gigs,!and!you!needed!to!know!tunes.!Did!
I!know!them!that!well?!Probably!not,!but!we!knew!the!melody!and!we!felt!the!tunes,!
what!they!were!about.!In!the!old!days,!people!used!to!get!together!and!sing!and!play!
guitar,!which!is!a!thing!that!I!think!music!should!be!part!of!–!the!culture,!you!know,!
it’s!part!of!your!life.!It’s!not!just!about!business.!If!we!incorporate!it!into!our!home!
and!really!make!it!honest!like!that,!it!could!really!be!great.!
So!I!was!lucky!enough!to!have!a!really!great!school!system!early!on!and!really!great!
teachers.!I!didn’t!quite!get!all!the!aspects!of!the!great!theory!classes!that!we!were!
fortunate!to!be!able!to!experience;!it!was!almost!too!much!for!me!at!the!time!to!
really!get!it!and!utilize!all!those!things.!I!had!a!great!teacher!who!was!a!player!that!
taught!me!saxophone,!and!the!school!bands!were!good!–!the!jazz!band,!stage!band,!
combos,!they!were!all!good!bands.!We!played!a!lot!of!music!then,!inside!and!outside!
of!the!school.!My!brother!and!I!also!played!some!orchestral!things!around!the!
community!that!were!nice.!It!was!very!important.!I!wish!there!was!more!of!that.!I!
was!just!telling!Earl!Gardner!–!who!was!the!lead!trumpet!player!for!the!Vanguard!
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Orchestra!for!many!years!with!Thad!–!I!was!talking!about!that!with!him,!classical!
music.!I!said!that!the!conductors!didn’t!like!us!that!much,!the!brass!and!the!
woodwinds,!because!on!the!breaks!we’d!be!playing!tunes.!So!it’s!funny.!Classical!
music,!older!and!modern,!is!another!dimension!to!add!to!one’s!musical!journey.!And!
as!I!said,!my!brother!and!I!would!do!a!lot!of!gigs.!There!were!a!lot!of!club!dates,!and!
you!learned!about!music.!That!was!generally!that,!and!then!I!went!to!Berklee!College!
of!Music,!and!it!was!a!great!experience.!I!met!so!many!people!there.!I!was!lucky!
enough!to!have!teachers!like!Herb!Pomeroy,!and!I!was!in!his!band!for!most!of!the!
time!I!was!at!Berklee.!All!that!at!the!school!was!great,!and!outside!the!school!was!
really!incredible!too.!We!had!a!place!in!Allston,!Massachusetts,!right!outside!the!city,!
and!we!used!to!play!all!the!time.!It!was!like!a!loft!over!a!business!building.!I!found!
this!pad,!and!so!many!of!us!lived!there,!sometimes!we’d!have!3!rhythm!sections!a!
day!–!the!early!session,!the!early!evening,!and!the!late!session!would!start!at!1!or!2.!
So!it!was!really!great.!All!these!people!would!come!by,!and!I!still!know!them!today;!
good!friends!like!Joe!Lovano,!Kenny!Werner,!John!Scofield,!many!others.!So!living!in!
Massachusetts!for!about!5!or!6!years!was!a!great!experience.!And!since!we’re!talking!
specifically!big!bands,!again!I!want!to!mention!Herb!Pomeroy,!who!was!one!of!the!
greatest!conductors.!Joey!Baron!and!I!occasionally!talk!about!Herb,!who!is!gone!
now,!but!we!wish!he!was!still!around.!He!was!just!a!great!bandleader,!because!he!
knew!exactly!what!was!going!on!and!he!cared!about!rhythm!sections,!which!not!
everybody!does.!That!was!an!integral!part!of!his!conception.!I!played!so!much!music!
there,!moving!on!from!the!high!school!thing!to!this!great!college,!it!was!just!
wonderful.!
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JS:!So!when!did!you!move!to!New!York!and!get!involved!in!the!big!band!scene!here?!
BD:!I!moved!back!to!New!York!around!1975,!and!was!lucky!enough!to!get!called!for!
many!gigs,!just!before!the!major!studio!scene!was!nearing!the!end,!although!it!was!
long!enough!to!meet!some!great!musicians.!I!was!never!a!big!studio!guy,!but!I!caught!
the!tail!end!of!that!and!it!was!great.!Things!were!different!then.!They!had!bigger!
ensembles!–!not!quite!big!bands,!but!coming!out!of!that.!Moving!back!to!New!York!
was!great,!because!there!were!different!generations!of!players!that!you!got!to!play!
with,!hear,!and!experience.!It!was!just!incredible.!I!guess!we!should!move!on!to!the!
Vanguard!Orchestra.!I!don’t!really!do!too!many!big!bands!these!days.!It’s!funny,!
because!where!we’re!interviewing!we!just!did!an!NYU!graduation!hang!with!the!
wonderful!big!band,!conducted!by!Rich!Shemaria,!and!we!played!a!couple!of!my!
pieces!that!I!wrote!for!the!band!and!another!piece!that!I!had!previously!written.!It!
was!wonderful,!because!I!don’t!really!write!that!much!for!big!band,!but!you!get!a!
little!touch!of!that!power,!and!to!bring!your!thing!to!it,!you!start!to!get!the!bug.!You!
think,!“Wow,!what!can!I!do!with!it?”!So!we!did!that!today,!and!it!was!really!fun.!But!I!
was!lucky!enough!–!I!think!it!was!in!the!early!80’s!–!I!got!a!call!to!sub!with!the!
Vanguard!Orchestra.!And!that’s!how!it!is.!You!may!get!called!to!a!couple!of!
rehearsals,!and!if!you!do!a!good!job,!you!get!called!back.!It’s!funny!because!I!used!to!
see!Thad!and!Mel’s!band!when!I!was!a!kid!out!in!Long!Island.!There!used!to!be!this!
jazz!coalition,!funded!partly!by!the!union,!and!it!was!great!–!I!used!to!see!Cannonball!
outside.!I!remember!seeing!Cannonball!with!these!dancers!–!after!they!did!the!set,!
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194!
they!marched!around,!all!these!dancers.!It!was!like!Mardi!Gras,!or!being!down!in!
Brazil.![laughs]!So!it!was!wonderful!as!a!kid!to!see,!and!Thad!and!Mel’s!band!used!to!
come!a!bunch.!I!saw!many!of!those!concerts.!I!forget!when!I!actually!came!into!the!
Vanguard,!because!I!used!to!come!in!to!the!Vanguard!to!see!people!when!I!was!
younger.!I!don’t!think!I!actually!saw!the!band!there.!So!here!we!are!years!later!and!
I’m!playing!all!this!small!group!stuff!–!crazy!music!–!and!I!get!a!call,!and!I!hadn’t!
really!gone!down!and!seen!the!band!since!I!had!moved!to!New!York,!which!I’m!
ashamed!to!say.!So!here!I!go!to!play,!and!wow.!Mel!was!still!playing.!Thad!was!gone,!
but!it!was!like,!“Wow,!this!is!special.”!And!it’s!still!the!same!today.!I!don’t!do!that!
many!big!band!gigs!today,!because!there!are!other!projects!happening,!so!it’s!hard!to!
commit.!But!to!play!with!that!band!still!to!this!day!is!really!special!–!the!beat,!the!
time!feel,!the!conception!of!the!way!the!band!feels!it,!the!conception!of!the!rhythm!
section,!it’s!amazing.!And!the!rhythm!sections!keep!evolving,!too,!and!Mel!evolved.!If!
a!bass!player!and!piano!player!with!some!new!ideas!and!directions,!still!rooted!in!
the!tradition,!came!in!to!play!with!the!band,!Mel!would!go!right!along.!Mel!would!go,!
“Oh!yeah,!we’re!going!there?”!And!he!would!evolve!and!take!the!rhythm!section!
through!that,!but!still!keep!the!band!supported,!just!with!a!little!hit,!a!little!push.!Mel!
was!phenomenal,!and!I!wish!I!was!lucky!enough!to!play!one!gig!under!the!baton!
(well,!he!didn’t!use!a!baton)!of!Thad,!but!I!never!did.!A!bunch!of!the!guys!in!the!band!
had!experienced!it!for!a!while.!So!that’s!what’s!so!special!about!that!band.!You!may!
have!played!the!music!for!a!while,!and!you!feel!like!maybe!you!should!let!some!
younger!players!experience!it,!but!then!the!next!week!you!go,!“Nah.!I!still!love!this.”!
[laughs]!
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JS:!Yeah,!I!think!one!of!the!things!that’s!always!been!distinctive!about!the!Vanguard!
is!how!the!rhythm!section!plays.!A!lot!of!times!it’s!a!chorus!of!piano!up!front!to!get!
things!locked!in,!which!gives!the!horn!section!a!nice!foundation!to!rest!on.!
BD:!That’s!a!big!thing.!That!was!always!part!of!the!conception!of!the!band,!because!
again!it!was!about!the!rhythm.!A!lot!of!times!you!may!play!with!a!great!band,!aside!
from!the!VJO!or!Basie,!etc.,!and!unless!you’re!doing!some!really!new!stuff!(and!
there’s!some!really!great!new!stuff)!–!let’s!say!you’re!playing!a!Thad!Jones!chart!
outside!that!band,!it!just!may!not!quite!have!that!thing,!or!the!conception!of!the!band!
is!a!little!more!generic!in!a!sense.!This!tradition!has!gone!on,!it’s!been!handed!down,!
so!when!subs!come!in!they!just!intuitively!know,!or!other!people!take!them!with!
them.!If!you’re!a!good!musician,!it!just!grabs!you!right!on,!after!about!2!notes,!and!
you!latch!on!to!that.!Not!to!take!away!from!any!other!situation,!because!every!
musical!situation!is!positive,!but!that!is!special.!
JS:!Jazz!has!always!been!a!genre!that!involves!a!lot!of!apprenticeship.!You!have!
young!guys!coming!in!and!learning!from!those!who’ve!been!around!a!little!longer!
before!branching!out!and!doing!their!own!thing.!A!lot!of!that!apprenticeship!seems!
to!be!moving!into!the!university!system!–!people!go!to!study!now!rather!than!
learning!on!the!bandstand.!Big!bands!in!particular!are!so!expensive!to!run!that!the!
university!big!bands!comprise!the!largest!number!of!bands!in!the!country.!Do!you!
have!any!thoughts!about!the!potential!change!in!the!music!that!might!arise!from!the!
university’s!involvement?!Or!any!thoughts!on!jazz!education!in!general?!
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BD:!Well,!when!you!talk!to!people,!I!guess!it’s!a!doubleiedged!sword.!I!always!like!to!
look!at!everything!positively.!Some!people!say,!“In!the!old!days,!it!was!passed!down!
this!way,”!which!I!can!totally!get!with,!but!if!you!have!part!of!that!too,!which!is!
hopefully!what!teachers!are!giving!their!students,!passing!it!down!in!that!way,!along!
with!all!the!new!conceptions!and!approaches,!is!the!way!to!go.!You!have!different!
teachers,!and!everyone!has!their!own!thing.!I!don’t!think!you!can!get!everything!
from!every!teacher!unless!they!have!a!system.!I!don’t!really!have!a!system.!Maybe!I!
should.![laughs]!It’s!incredible,!though.!There!are!so!many!good!musicians,!and!I!
know!everybody!will!find!their!path.!I!just!hope!that!all!these!talented!young!people!
will!not!go!into!some!sort!of!depression!because!they!can’t!do!one!of!the!things!
they’re!really!good!at.!That’s!the!thing.!I’m!not!losing!sleep!over!it,!but!I!do!think!
about!it.!It’s!good.!I!can’t!deny!what!I!see!coming!out.!There!was!a!young!trumpet!
player!tonight,!a!young!woman!from!the!New!School!subbing.!All!of!a!sudden!she!
starts!to!play,!and!I!was!like,!“Wow,!who!was!that,!it!really!sounded!beautiful.”!
Everything!has!changed.!Obviously!we!know!that.!Just!the!way!we!communicate,!
and!there!are!things!about!it!you!question,!all!this!access!to!all!this!information.!
Ultimately!it’s!got!to!be!good,!but!there!are!things!that!come!with!it.!Is!it!too!easy?!
Life!used!to!be!simple!when!we!were!kids.!You!know,!you’d!go!out!and!play!ball!all!
day.!You’d!bring!some!water,!and!7!hours!later!you’d!come!back,!and!I!don’t!think!
our!parents!were!worried!about!us.!So!things!have!changed,!but!I!think!it’s!good.!To!
reiterate,!I!think!you!see!what’s!coming!out,!the!talent.!And!that’s!a!funny!thing,!to!
be!yourself.!That’s!the!thing.!There’s!so!much!access!to!hearing!things!that!you!want!
to!totally!emulate.!But!it!was!like!that!in!the!old!days,!you’d!hear!Kenny!Dorham,!
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you’d!hear!Bird,!you’d!hear!Trane.!It!was!too!good!not!to!want!to!sound!something!
like!it.!But!now!there’s!so!much.!One!thing!I!try!to!stress!is!that!once!a!player!gets!
familiarized,!if!they!can’t!sing!a!blues!–!forget!about!playing,!if!they!can’t!sing!it!–!
forget!about!being!yourself,!let’s!try!to!really!feel!that!blues.!If!you’re!just!playing!
what!somebody!else!played,!it’ll!work,!and!people!get!pretty!good!at!it,!and!I!love!to!
hear!it,!but!then!can!you!take!it!and!do!something!with!it.!Sometimes!you!rearrange!
those!things!too.!I!was!saying!to!somebody!out!front,!somebody!I!hadn’t!seen!for!a!
while,!that!the!world!is!filled!with!creative!energy.!You!know!how!it!is!when!you!
travel,!you!meet!people!from!all!over!who!are!just!incredible.!Everywhere,!it!doesn’t!
matter.!You!look!into!their!eyes!and!you!share!life,!you!share!music.!It’s!not!about!
any!bullshit.!But!if!we!could!just!get!there,!and!then!all!these!young!people!would!
have!something!to!do!and!use!that!creative!ability!and!knowledge!to!better!our!
situation.!
JS:!Absolutely.!One!final!question!that!I’m!asking!everyone.!What!do!you!see!in!the!
future!for!big!bands?!Or!what!would!you!like!to!see?!
BD:!Well,!there’s!one!school!where!people!want!to!keep!playing!the!old!stuff,!which!
is!straight!in!line!classic.!I!did!some!last!night,!and!I!had!never!played!a!lot!of!that!
music.!But!it!was!fun.!So!there’s!that.!But!the!configuration!of!a!big!band!I!think!can!
change.!Thad!would!add!a!French!horn!when!he!needed!it,!and!Maria!Schneider!
adds!instruments!when!she!needs!them!for!a!certain!project,!and!that’s!what!I!
would!like.!In!essence,!you’d!have!all!the!power!and!flexibility!of!a!big!band,!but!for!
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myself,!I’d!envision!some!different!instrumentation.!But!if!we’re!talking!strictly!big!
band,!a!lot!of!things!are!formulated.!I!remember!Brookmeyer!said!that!he!wouldn’t!
write!saxophone!solis,!and!I’m!kind!of!with!that.!Some!of!it!is!like,!“We’ll!do!the!
saxophone!soli,!then!we’ll!do!the!shout!chorus,!etc.”!So!how!do!you!get!the!shout!
chorus!without!it!being!an!obvious!shout!chorus?!So!if!we’re!speaking!of!the!
configuration!of!the!basic!big!band,!with!maybe!a!couple!other!instruments,!take!the!
power!there,!and!there’s!so!much!music!around!the!world.!I!think!this!relates!to!all!
kinds!of!configurations,!not!just!big!band.!Small!groups!too,!what!do!you!do?!How!do!
we!get!the!essence!of!a!ride!pattern!without!doing!it?!And!plenty!of!people!are!doing!
it,!they’re!experimenting.!For!big!bands,!with!16!or!more!people,!I!would!hope!that!
really!expands.!And!by!paying!homage!to!the!great!composers!and!keeping!the!
essence!of!that!music!and!that!lineage.!So!I!hope!it!would!be!something!that!I’ve!
never!heard.!It’s!like!playing.!A!friend!of!mine!at!the!Vanguard!–!one!last!Vanguard!
story!since!we’re!talking!big!band!–!we!were!playing!one!of!those!tunes!where!you!
trade!on!rhythm!changes,!and!I!played!last.!I!just!felt!good,!from!the!first!note,!and!
one!of!my!friends!said,!“You!didn’t!play!one!thing!that!I’d!ever!heard.”![laughs]!And!I!
just!said,!“Thanks.”!But!it!felt!good,!and!it!felt!like!it!was!with!the!essence!of!the!
music.!You!know,!sometimes!you!just!go!wild,!but!where!do!you!bring!that!in?!Well,!
it’s!the!same.!The!question!is!how!do!we!evolve!this!thing!into!the!next!thing.!Gil!
Evans!took!it!a!certain!way.!And!you!hear!Sinatra,!and!that’s!still!great,!but!to!do!just!
that!with!another!singer,!it!would!be!great,!but!I’d!like!to!see!some!other!stuff.!I!
know!it!will!be!there!and!I!know!that!somebody!coming!up!will!be!doing!it.!And!I’m!
interested!in!starting!to!write!a!little!more!for!big!band,!too.!I!want!to!see!where!the!
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next!one!goes,!because!the!next!one!could!be!really!interesting.!And!I!just!want!to!
say!that!I’m!so!glad!to!be!able!to!play!music!with!friends!and!fellow!musicians,!and!
I’m!really!honored!to!spend!a!little!time!with!you.!
JS:!Likewise.!Thank!you!so!much!for!speaking!with!me.!
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Steven!Feifke!
Skype!Interview!
July!17,!2015!
Steven(Feifke(is(a(New(York(based(jazz(pianist(and(composer.(Feifke(has(led(his(own(big(
band(since(2013,(and(was(commissioned(in(2014(by(the(23Arts(Initiative(to(write(a(
new(arrangement(of(George(Gershwin’s(“Rhapsody(in(Blue”(for(piano(and(big(band.(
JS:!Tell!me!about!your!history!with!big!band!and!what!sparked!your!interest!in!
writing!and!arranging!for!the!ensemble.!
SF:!To!be!completely!honest,!I!have!no!idea!what!specifically!sparked!my!interest!in!
writing!big!band!music.!I’ve!always!loved!writing!music!–!I!wrote!my!first!song!
when!I!was!in!middle!school.!I!still!have!it,!actually.!It’s!passable,!but!past!that!it’s!
not!very!good.!I!just!kept!writing!music,!and!I!was!fortunate!enough!to!go!to!a!great!
high!school!with!a!great!jazz!program.!The!big!band!there!is!pretty!good,!so!I!played!
in!the!lower!big!band!when!I!was!a!sophomore!and!junior,!and!then!the!highest!big!
band!when!I!was!a!senior.!I!remember!asking!my!teacher!if!I!could!bring!in!a!song!to!
the!big!band,!and!he!said,!“As!long!as!it’s!not!too!hard.”!I!wrote!something,!but!I!
stopped!after!the!intro,!because!after!it!was!obvious!where!to!put!the!instruments,!I!
didn’t!know!what!to!do!with!it.!So!I!didn’t!complete!it!until!my!senior!year.!The!small!
groups!at!my!high!school!were!septets,!so!I!used!to!write!a!lot!for!the!septet.!
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JS:!You!still!have!a!septet,!right?!
SF:!Yeah,!I!have!a!septet!and!a!big!band!too.!So!I!wrote!my!first!big!band!chart!when!
I!was!a!senior!in!high!school.!I’ve!always!loved!writing!music,!and!the!more!toys!to!
play!with,!the!better.!
JS:!Absolutely.!You’ve!done!some!arrangements!that!reiimagine!classic!charts!–!your!
arrangement!of!“Caravan”!is!ridiculous.![laughs]!I!love!it.!So!do!you!think!we!have!an!
obligation!to!continue!reiimagining!charts!just!to!try!to!bring!different!perspectives!
to!the!tunes?!Do!you!think!that!helps!maintain!the!vitality!of!the!music,!just!to!have!
different!views!on!classic!tunes?!
SF:!So!when!you!solo,!are!you!trying!to!sound!like!somebody!else!or!are!you!just!
trying!to!play!what!you!hear?!
JS:!Right.!You!take!inspiration!from!other!people,!but!you!definitely!have!to!bring!
your!own!thing!to!it.!
SF:!Yeah.!I!can!tell!you!about!how!I!wrote!that!arrangement!of!“Caravan.”!Actually,!
let!me!answer!that!question!first.!No,!I!don’t!think!that!way.!I!don’t!know!what!is!
necessary!to!push!the!music!forward.!I!would!say!maybe!more!original!
compositions!are!probably!more!helpful!in!pushing!jazz!music!forward,!and!just!
creating!new!bodies!of!work.!As!far!as!rewriting!old!charts,!I!don’t!think!about!any!
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previous!charts!when!writing!a!new!chart.!If!I!have!to!think!about!what!I!want!to!do!
with!an!arrangement!–!unless!I’m!being!hired!to!write!that!arrangement!–!then!I!
stop!there.!So!what!happened!with!“Caravan”!–!it!was!a!few!years!ago,!and!I!was!
playing!with!my!septet!in!Boston!the!night!before!we!went!in!to!record!my!CD.!We!
were!at!sound!check,!and!the!music!for!my!septet!is!all!old!–!I!wrote!it!my!
sophomore!year!of!college!–!and!I!wanted!to!do!a!big!band!record!for!my!first!one,!
but!recording!a!CD!is!expensive!regardless!of!ensemble!size.!A!big!band!is!so!
expensive!that!there’s!no!way!I!could!afford!that,!but!I!wanted!to!showcase!my!
writing,!so!I!went!with!my!septet.!So!we!were!in!the!studio!at!sound!check!and!I!was!
just!fooling!around,!and!came!up!with!this!groove!at!the!end!of!“Caravan.”!It!sat!
around!for!a!year!and!a!half,!when!I!had!the!opportunity!to!record!it,!so!I!wrote!it!
down.!
JS:!Nice.!Since!we’re!talking!about!this!sort!of!thing,!who!are!some!of!your!musical!
influences,!inside!and!outside!of!jazz?!
SF:!My!first!jazz!record!was!The(Atomic(Count(Basie.!Are!you!asking!just!about!
writers,!or!are!you!asking!about!everybody?!
JS:!Everybody.!
SF:!There!are!a!lot!of!them.!Count!Basie!and!McCoy!Tyner!were!my!first!two!big!CDs,!
and!then!from!there!it!exploded.!When!I!was!still!really!young,!I!got!into!Michel!
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Camillo!and!his!really!flashy!pianistic!technique.!I!liked!that!about!him.!Then!I!got!
into!Oscar![Peterson]!from!there,!and!this!Japanese!guy!named!Makoto!Ozone.!In!my!
younger!years,!he!was!the!guy!I!always!listened!to.!Then!there’s!Gene!Harris!–!I’m!
just!going!to!keep!going!with!pianists!–!and![Brad]!Mehldau.!Then!I!kind!of!went!
backwards!and!got!into!Art!Tatum,!Bud!Powell,!Barry!Harris,!Sonny!Clarke,!and!all!
of!those!guys.!A!year!later,!I!got!into!Ahmad![Jamal].!When!you!listen!to!his!trio,!
there’s!some!killing!writing.!Holy!shit.!
JS:!Absolutely.!
SF:!Live(at(the(Blackhawk!is!one!of!the!best!records!of!all!time,!without!a!doubt.!That!
arrangement!of!“Darn!That!Dream”![from!Cross!Country!Tour!1958i1961]!is!
ridiculous.!And!then!I!listened!to!a!lot!of!Christian!McBride,!Joshua!Redman,!Chris!
Potter,!I!especially!loved![Michael]!Brecker,!and!then!I!wound!up!studying!with!Gil!
Goldstein!at!NYU.!But!what!I!was!going!to!say!before!I!started!listing!off!my!
influences,!was!that!I!used!to!listen!to!records!and!assume!that!the!cat’s!name!on!the!
CD!arranged!all!the!material.!So!when!I!listened!to!Count!Basie,!I!was!like,!“Holy!shit,!
he!wrote!all!of!that?!That’s!incredible.”!And!then!I!found!out!it!was!Neal!Hefti.!With!
McCoy!it!was!different,!since!those!were!trio!records.!But!as!soon!as!I!found!out!that!
that!was!something!you!could!do!with!your!career,!that’s!what!I!got!into.!So!I!
listened!to!a!ton!of!Frank![Sinatra],!Louis!Armstrong!has!some!killing!big!band!
recordings,!and!Quincy!did!a!lot!of!the!Frank![Sinatra]!charts,!and!Billy!Mays,!Bill!
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Holman,!all!of!those!guys.!I!realized!pretty!late!on!that!there!was!a!back!scene,!that!
there!were!people!that!did!that!instead!of!playing.!
JS:!Yeah,!I!was!listening!to!Sinatra!at!the!Sands!–!the!one!with!Count!Basie!and!
Quincy!Jones!–!the!other!day,!and!there!are!some!really!nice!arrangements!on!there.!
Apprenticeship!has!been!a!big!deal!in!jazz!–!working!with!an!older!player,!older!
writer,!and!learning!in!that!apprentice!style.!The!big!band!has!frequently!been!the!
site!of!this!kind!of!apprenticeship!for!players!especially.!You!know,!back!in!the!day!
you!would!go!on!the!road!with!a!band!and!absorb!all!of!that.!So!now!that!there!are!
very!few!touring!bands!and!there!aren’t!those!kinds!of!opportunities,!things!have!
moved!into!the!university!system.!So!I!guess!the!question!is:!is!this!same!style!of!
apprenticeship!available!through!the!university!system,!and!do!you!have!any!
thoughts!on!how!the!music!might!have!changed,!with!it!moving!into!a!more!
academic!setting.!
SF:!Well,!first,!far!be!it!for!me!to!give!a!correct!answer!on!this,!because!I’m!sure!
there!are!many!correct!answers,!so!as!a!disclaimer!I!suppose,!I’ll!say!that!first.!It’s!
such!a!broad!question,!because!really!what!you’re!asking!a!question!about!isn’t!–!
well,!it!is!about!the!state!of!jazz!and!how!education!has!affected!it!–!but!basically!
what!you’re!talking!about!is!the!marketplace,!viewing!jazz!in!terms!of!a!market.!If!
you’re!going!to!say!that!jazz!has!become!an!academic!art!form,!then!you!have!to!ask!
yourself!two!more!questions:!how!do!you!yourself!feel!about!jazz!and!classical!
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music,!and!how!do!those!compare!in!your!head,!and!how!does!that!resonate!with!
you?!When!you!sit!them!sideibyiside,!you!have!classical!music!and!you!have!jazz.!
Classical!music!–!using!the!broad!term,!since!the!Classical!period!was!only!50!years!
–!is!far!older!than!jazz,!hundreds!of!years,!however!far!back!you!want!to!define!that.!
But!with!jazz,!I!don’t!know!where!you!would!draw!that!beginning!line.!I’m!sure!that!
that’s!up!for!contention!too,!and!you!could!probably!give!me!a!better!answer!than!I!
could!give!you!on!that,!but!let’s!just!say!for!argument’s!sake!that!it!began!in!the!
1900’s.!So!we!have!a!hundred!years!of!our!art!form.!So,!to!get!back!to!the!question!of!
how!it’s!affecting!people!with!mentorships,!everybody!has!to!get!out!of!school.!If!you!
go!to!school!and!then!you!think!that!you’re!done!learning!–!I!don’t!know!any!
profession!like!that.!Jazz!is!an!art!form,!but!being!a!musician!is!a!profession,!and!
there!are!serious!questions!that!you!have!to!ask!yourself,!like!“How!do!I!keep!the!
lights!on?”!There!are!still!mentorships!available.!You!go!to!a!university!and!even!if!
you!don’t!go!to!a!university!in!New!York!City!–!I!don’t!know!where!a!small!jazz!
program!is,!but!all!of!those!professors!at!least!studied!with!somebody,!and!if!that!
somebody!isn’t!alive,!then!they!have!all!of!those!stories!and!the!music!is!passed!
down.!What’s!been!happening!recently!is!that!the!last!people!are!passing!away.!
Clark!Terry!is!gone.!I!don’t!know!how!many!recordings!I’ve!listened!to!over!the!
course!of!my!life!that!have!him!on!there.!Roy!Haynes!is!still!around,!but!his!
Alzheimer’s!has!gotten!bad.!I!saw!him!at!Dizzy’s!for!his!last!show,!and!there!were!
the!people!up!front!sitting!down!in!the!chairs,!and!they!didn’t!really!know!what!was!
going!on,!but!then!in!the!back!of!the!room!was!everybody!from!the!scene,!just!
checking!out!Roy.!He!sounded!ridiculous,!but!then!he!gets!on!the!mic!and!he!goes,!
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“David!Wong!on!the!bass,”!and!the!crowd!applauds,!and!then!he!goes,!“And!let’s!hear!
it!for!David!Wong!on!the!bass.”!But!positions!like!that!–!you!have!to!remember!that!
David!Wong!is!kind!of!a!part!of!our!generation,!so!is!Jaleel!Shaw,!all!those!cats!that!
are!in!that!band.!The!point!is!that!those!exist,!but!they!are!getting!fewer!and!fewer!
as!the!legends!go.!That!being!said,!there!is!still!a!network!of!people,!and!if!you!want!
to!go!meet!someone,!you!go!meet!them.!You!can’t!put!the!responsibility!on!a!
university!to!provide!you!with!that!mentorship.!And!that!brings!me!to!my!second!
question,!which!is!how!you!separate!the!academic!side!of!things!and!the!artistic!side!
of!things,!and!is!there!a!difference?!I!think!so.!I’ve!been!copying!for!David!Berger,!
and!I’d!say!our!two!styles!of!writing!are!very!different,!but!I’m!still!going!into!his!
scores!and!studying.!I’m!not!the!only!one!who!can!do!that!–!somebody!else!could!go!
to!David!Berger!and!say,!“Hey,!I!want!to!copy!for!you.”!Studying!with!Gil!Goldstein!in!
college,!it’s!not!like!I!graduate!from!NYU!and!that’s!the!end!of!that!relationship.!Gil!is!
a!busy!dude!and!enters!things!into!Sibelius!himself,!so!it’s!not!the!same!kind!of!
opportunity,!but!it’s!still!available.!You’re!right,!there!aren’t!many!touring!bands!left,!
but!even!Wayne!Shorter!calls!this!cat,!Jonathan!Pinson,!on!drums!to!sub!for!Brian!
Blade!sometimes.!The!list!goes!on!and!on,!like!Russell!Malone!calling!Russell!Hall!
and!Luke!Sellick.!The!mentorship!is!so!far!from!done,!it’s!just!that!the!supply!of!
young!musicians!is!higher!and!the!demand!is!lower.!
JS:!I!think!so.!That’s!one!of!the!things!I’ve!always!told!students!–!a!lot!of!these!
famous!people!are!just!people,!and!you!can!find!them!and!introduce!yourself.!There!
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are!a!lot!of!students,!but!there!are!only!a!few!who!are!willing!to!reach!out!and!say,!
“Hey,!I’m!here.”!There’s!something!to!be!said!about!that,!I!think.!
SF:!I!agree.!Not!to!spend!too!much!more!time!on!this,!but!I!think!that!there!is!too!
much!emphasis!put!on!the!university!to!do!for!you.!It’s!an!“ask!not!what!your!
country!can!do!for!you,!ask!what!you!can!do!for!your!country”!kind!of!thing.!
JS:!Absolutely.!A!lot!of!people!think!that!if!they’re!going!into!a!jazz!program!that!it’s!
the!program’s!responsibility!to!give!them!what!they!need,!instead!of!using!the!
opportunity!to!take!what!they!need!themselves!and!meet!the!right!people.!My!
feeling!about!universities!is!that!it’s!an!opportunity!to!get!into!a!good!environment!
where!you!can!work!and!learn.!
A!lot!of!people!are!taking!advantage!of!new!media!technologies,!both!distributing!
recordings!and!selling!charts.!It’s!become!not!necessarily!easier,!but!it’s!certainly!
easier!to!get!music!out.!Do!you!have!any!thoughts!on!any!of!that!and!how!people!
might!be!able!to!use!some!of!those!technologies!wisely?!
SF:!I!think!the!same!thing!is!true!that!always!was:!if!the!music!is!killing!and!you!find!
a!way!to!get!it!out,!shit!will!happen.![laughs]!Just!because!it’s!easier!now!doesn’t!
mean!that!you!can!write!lesser!quality!music.!I’m!a!little!unclear!on!what!the!
question!is.!
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JS:!It!was!an!unclear!question.!We’ll!just!skip!it!because!I!can’t!think!of!a!better!way!
of!asking!something!more!specific.!One!more!question.!
SF:!You!can!ask!more!than!one!if!you!need.![laughs]!
JS:!Okay.![laughs]!So!the!last!question!is!one!I’ve!been!asking!everyone.!This!is!kind!
of!a!dual!question.!Either!what!do!you!see!in!the!future!for!big!band,!or!what!would!
you!like!to!see?!
SF:!Oh,!I!don’t!know.![laughs]!I!have!no!idea,!dude.!I!mean,!I’m!thinking!aloud,!but!
big!band!is!a!subgenre!of!jazz,!which!is!a!subgenre!of!music.!Jazz!has!never!had!a!big!
place!in!the!market,!and!if!you!think!otherwise!I!think!you’re!fooling!yourself.!The!
time!when!jazz!was!pop!music,!who!are!you!referring!to?!Duke,!Count!Basie,!and!
Frank?!As!time!went!by,!check!out!what!happened!to!the!complexity!of!that!music,!
even!in!those!three!names.!No!offense!to!Count!Basie,!but!it’s!no!Duke!Ellington.!I!
don’t!know!what’s!going!to!happen!to!big!band!and!jazz.!I!was!interviewed!
yesterday!for!a!teaching!position,!and!it!was!interesting.!This!guy!asked!me,!“How!
would!you!teach!younger!students!the!basics!of!music?”!And!I!said,!“Well,!I!think!
there!is!a!basic!understanding!that!comes!from!Bach,”!and!gave!some!B.S.!answer.!
But!he!goes,!“You!know,!you’re!absolutely!right.”!And!I!was!like,!“Great.”![laughs]!But!
he!said!something!very!wise.!He!said,!“I!don’t!like!classifying!music!from!genre!to!
genre!because!it!all!shares!the!common!goal!of!sparking!emotional!content!within!
the!listener.”!As!a!composer!–!and!you’re!a!composer!too!–!you!can’t!do!anything!but!
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put!on!paper!what!you!feel.!It’s!your!job!to!be!honest!with!yourself,!and!it’s!my!job!
too.!It’s!our!job!to!be!open!and!honest!with!ourselves!and!have!the!necessary!skill!
set!required!to!evoke!those!emotions!as!best!we!can!within!ourselves!and!hope!that!
it!invokes!emotions!in!other!people.!Maybe!it!will!be!the!same!emotions!you!felt,!
maybe!it!will!be!different,!but!what!makes!us!individuals!is!how!we!respond!to!
different!inputs,!whether!it!be!emotion!or!sonic!or!whatever.!As!far!as!big!bands,!I’m!
just!going!to!keep!writing!what!I!hear,!and!I!like!writing!for!big!band!for!now.!Maybe!
I’ll!always!like!writing!for!big!band;!I!think!I!will.!To!be!perfectly!honest,!I!don’t!
know!what!everybody!else!has!said,!but!what!would!I!like!to!see!in!big!band!jazz!in!
the!future?!Hopefully!my!name,!to!be!completely!honest.!I!don’t!want!to!just!fade!
out.!I!want!to!continue!writing!music,!and!hopefully!people!will!listen!to!it.!But!that!
being!said,!most!of!the!opportunities!for!gigs!in!New!York!right!now!are!swing!
dances,!dance!band!gigs,!and!that’s!probably!the!case!in!a!lot!of!places.!It’s!
interesting!that!in!these!economically!unstable!times!we’re!returning!to!a!style!of!
music!that!was!last!big!in!another!previous!economically!unstable!time.!But!you!
have!to!think!about!what!that!music!means,!and!the!freedom!that!jazz!affords!the!
listener.!I!don’t!know.!I!think!that!it!should!make!you!move,!whether!or!not!it’s!a!
serious!song!or!modern!jazz,!or!if!it’s!swing.!Over!the!years,!that’s!the!kinds!of!music!
that!have!taken!off,!from!Metallica!to!the!Doobie!Brothers,!from!Frank!to!Splank.!I!
don’t!know!if!that!answers!the!question.!It’s!a!good!question,!but!it’s!impossible!to!
know.!
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Alan!Ferber!
Personal!Interview!
May!15,!2014!
Alan(Ferber(is(a(New(York(based(jazz(trombonist(and(composer(who(leads(both(a(
nonet(and(big(band.(Ferber’s(approach(to(composition(for(big(band(calls(for(a(deep(
knowledge(of(the(history(of(the(ensemble(as(a(way(toward(innovation.(
JS:!Tell!me!about!your!history!with!the!ensemble.!
AF:!I!come!from!a!long!line!of!performers!in!my!family!–!my!identical!twin!is!a!
drummer!–!and!that!ultimately!probably!has!the!most!to!do!with!why!I!found!myself!
in!music,!and!jazz.!My!grandmother!was!actually!a!Broadway!actress.!She!sang!with!
Gene!Krupa’s!band!and!has!a!long!history!with!big!bands!and!Broadway!singing.!
When!she!was!younger,!she!was!doing!a!lot!of!shows,!and!she!ultimately!moved!to!
L.A.!because!she!got!hired!on!the!MGM!payroll!to!do!a!lot!of!the!movies!in!L.A.,!some!
of!which!were!in!a!Broadway!style!–!movies!like!Anchors!Away.!She!got!to!know!
Frank!Sinatra,!the!Dorseys,!all!sorts!of!people.!So!in!a!way,!I!think!genetically!I!was!
born!into!this.!It!wasn’t!really!my!choice;!it!kind!of!chose!me!before!I!was!even!born.!
Even!though!I!never!met!my!grandmother,!because!she!died!pretty!young,!I!think!
that!her!influence!came!by!way!of!my!mom!mostly.!My!dad!was!a!big!music!lover!
too,!but!he!was!not!a!musician.!My!mother!was!a!musician,!very!active!in!our!schools!
in!California!–!I!grew!up!in!the!Bay!area!–!and!I!think!she!put!a!high!priority!on!
music,!so!my!brother!and!I!both!got!started!really!early!on!piano,!and!then!found!our!
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way!to!trombone!and!drums!at!around!10!years!old!through!the!band!program.!I!
was!always!really!tall,!so!I!was!one!of!the!few!people!who!could!get!down!to!7th!
position![laughs]!with!my!long!arms,!so!I!think!the!instrument!kind!of!chose!me!
rather!than!me!choosing!it,!but!I’m!glad!it!did!because!I!fell!in!love!with!the!sound!of!
it.!When!I!was!growing!up,!Dean!Hubbard,!who!was!my!private!teacher!in!the!Bay!
area,!really!exposed!me!to!a!lot!of!jazz.!He!was!really!active!as!a!freelancer,!so!he!
played!with!Dizzy!Gillespie’s!big!band!when!he!came!through!town,!and!a!lot!of!local!
big!bands,!so!I!got!a!lot!of!exposure!through!that,!and!my!high!school!program!had!a!
good!big!band.!So!just!a!lot!of!exposure!to!the!music!coming!up!as!a!child!and!as!I!got!
older!through!high!school,!and!when!I!got!to!UCLA,!which!is!where!I!went!to!college,!
I!happened!into!a!pretty!lucky!situation!because!they!were!just!starting!the!jazz!
program!there.!Kenny!Burrell!was!heading!the!department,!and!my!big!band!
directors!were!Gerald!Wilson!and!Garnett!Brown,!and!you!can’t!do!much!better!than!
that.!By!way!of!that,!I!got!to!play,!and!I!took!a!class!with!Billy!Higgins!where!we!
played!Thelonious!Monk!tunes!every!week.!He!didn’t!say!much,!we!just!played.!
What!a!great!way!to!get!the!music!–!the!feel!and!the!joy!of!the!music!–!into!your!
body,!and!a!way!to!teach!it!in!a!way!that!you’re!exposed!to!it!through!the!joy!of!it,!
rather!than!through!somebody!explaining!to!you!on!a!blackboard!why!this!sounds!
good.!It!was!kind!of!like,!“Let’s!play!some!music,”!and!we!did,!and!it!felt!great,!and!I!
wanted!to!continue!to!do!it!as!a!result.!Thank!you!Billy!Higgins,!you!know![laughs,!
gestures!upward].!And!through!that!experience,!I!met!some!great!players.!I!was!in!
school!with!my!friend,!Todd!Sickafoose,!who’s!a!great!bass!player!I!played!with!a!
bunch.!He’s!made!a!bunch!of!great!records!–!he’s!still!playing,!very!active.!Gretchen!
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Parlato,!the!vocalist,!was!in!my!class,!and!a!guy!named!John!Deversa,!and!Justin!
Morell.!I!think!John!is!the!head!of!the!department!at!the!University!of!Miami!now,!
leads!the!big!band,!he’s!doing!great.!Anyway,!all!of!these!people!were!really!
inspiring!figures!and!exposed!me!to!a!lot!of!music.!I!think!from!there!–!as!a!
trombone!player!you’re!always!playing!in!big!bands!–!so!I!was!ushered!into!this!
after!I!graduated,!into!the!scene!in!Los!Angeles,!which!was!very!big!band!heavy.!
Really!I!got!my!start!and!created!my!initial!networks!through!playing!big!band!
rehearsals!at!the!union.!That’s!how!I!got!to!know!people!and!that’s!how!I!got!my!
first!gigs,!and!it!was!the!late!90’s,!so!it!was!the!beginning!of!the!big!neoiswing!
movement.!I!got!hired!by!Brian!Setzer,!who!I!then!went!on!the!road!with!for!a!year,!
so!I!just!got!swept!in!by!the!big!band!scene!and!it!kind!of!paid!my!rent!for!a!while,!
and!in!some!cases!it!still!does.!So!that’s!sort!of!how!I!got!funneled!into!it.!
JS:!So!were!you!always!writing!from!early!on,!or!was!that!something!you!got!into!
later?!
AF:!No,!much!later.!I!was!a!trombone!player!first,!and!I’d!never!written!a!tune!in!my!
life!until!I!think!my!senior!year!in!college.!!Justin!Burrell’s!father!came!and!did!a!
composition!class!at!school,!so!we!were!asked!to!bring!in!compositions.!I!was!like,!“I!
don’t!know!how!to!write,”!but!I!had!a!clue,!so!I!wrote!a!few!lead!sheets!and!brought!
them!in!and!got!them!played,!was!really!excited!about!it,!and!that!was!kind!of!the!
extent!of!it!in!terms!of!writing.!I!took!an!arranging!class,!and!there!was!a!little!bit!of!
writing!involved,!but!it!was!more!arranging!than!writing.!I!think!I!really!learned!and!
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got!excited!about!writing!because!I’m!a!trombone!player!and!I!got!lots!of!great!
opportunities!to!play!in!lots!of!great!big!bands.!When!you’re!sitting!in!the!middle!of!
the!band!and!you’re!playing!a!lot!of!things!that!aren’t!melodic!parts!–!they’re!always!
interior!parts!–!you’re!constantly!in!this!world!of!counterpoint.!I!think!one’s!ear!
naturally!gravitates!toward!the!melody.!When!you!listen!to!a!record,!you!listen!to!
the!melody,!you!listen!to!the!singer.!It!doesn’t!necessarily!direct!itself!to!the!middle,!
to!the!mid!ground,!but!I!think!as!a!trombone!player!you!exist!in!the!mid!ground!
world,!but!your!ear!is!always!naturally!gravitating!toward!the!melody.!So!you’re!
constantly!swimming!in!this!counterpoint,!in!this!texture,!the!mid!texture,!but!also!
relating!it!to!the!more!prominent!foreground!melodic!texture,!so!I!think!that’s!a!big!
reason!why!trombone!players!become!writers!–!there’s!sort!of!an!exposure!to!the!
inner!workings!of!how!everything!works.!So!when!I!ultimately!sat!down!and!started!
writing!for!larger!ensembles,!it!really!came!quite!naturally!to!me.!I!had!studied!a!
little!bit!of!big!band!scores!and!whatnot,!but!really!it!was!just!very!intuitive!and!I!
just!had!a!sense!of!how!it!worked.!Right!from!the!get!go,!I!think!I!had!a!pretty!good!
idea!of!how!things!should!be!laid!out.!
JS:!I!was!trying!to!remember!who!it!was!who!said!it!–!there!was!an!arranger!who!
was!talking!about!big!band!writing.!They!were!talking!about!the!trombone!section!
as!the!anchor!for!the!horn!section.!Sometimes!maybe!you!don’t!notice!them!on!the!
record,!but!they’re!the!ones!really!anchoring!the!horns!down.!He!was!talking!about!
writing!for!Ferguson’s!band!and!how!it!was!harder!because!he!never!had!a!lot!of!
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trombones!–!he!was!down!to!one!at!the!end!–!and!how!hard!it!was!to!really!get!a!full!
sound!sometimes,!or!a!big!band!style!sound!without!a!full!trombone!section.!
AF:!Yes,!it’s!very!true.!The!less!you!have,!the!more!difficult!it!is!to!fill!out!that!middle!
spectrum!of!the!sound,!and!that’s!where!the!power!comes!from.!Otherwise,!you!
have!sort!of!a!shell!of!a!sound,!but!the!trombones!provide!the!muscle,!the!body.!
Without!that,!you!know…![laughs]!come!on.!It’s!a!band,!but!it’s!not!a!big!band.!
JS:!So!did!you!start!writing!big!band!tunes!from!the!beginning,!because!I!know!that!
on!your!albums,!the!numbers!have!grown!over!the!years.![laughs]!
AF:!A!lot!of!people!give!me!a!hard!time!about!that.!No,!I!definitely!did!not!start!
writing!big!band,!nor!did!I!ever!really!want!to!have!a!big!band,!to!be!honest!with!
you.!I!think!that!originally!when!I!started!leading!bands,!it!was!a!quartet.!I!did!a!
quartet!gig!for!about!a!year!–!a!weekly!gig!in!L.A.,!and!that!was!a!really!great!
foundational!time!for!me,!to!learn!a!lot!of!tunes,!a!lot!of!melodies,!learn!how!to!
deliver!a!melody!as!sort!of!the!singer,!the!one!person.!So!I!really!learned!a!lot!about!
expressing!a!melody!and!trying!to!really!make!it!sing.!Then!as!I!started!to!form!
bands,!I!think!I!was!originally!attracted!to!3!note!voicings,!triadic!voicings!or!
quartal,!sort!of!fourth!oriented!voicings.!My!brother,!like!I!mentioned,!is!a!drummer,!
and!he!was!playing!with!some!folks!around!L.A.!at!the!time.!He!would!just!kind!of!
leave!some!sheet!music!on!the!piano!that!he!was!working!on,!and!I!would!just!kind!
of!sit!down!at!the!piano!and!check!this!stuff!out.!Sometimes!when!it!was!written!by!
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pianists,!it!was!cool!because!I!would!check!out!the!voicings!and!be!like!“wow,!that’s!
really!hip.”!A!lot!of!times!it!was!3!note!voicings!in!the!right!hand,!and!I!just!thought,!
“Wow,!that’s!such!a!great!sound.”!You!know,!if!you!have!a!triad,!and!then!an!
alternate!bass!note,!and!all!the!possibilities!of!the!sound!you!can!get!with!a!simple!
major!triad,!depending!on!what!bass!note.!I!was!just!really!enamored!by!that.!And!
then!fourth!voicings,!and!all!the!bass!notes,!and!all!the!sounds!that!can!produce,!and!
then!cluster!voicings,!the!same!thing.!I!was!so!attracted!to!that!sound,!that!harmony,!
that!my!first!band!I!put!together!was!alto,!tenor,!and!trombone,!and!we!gigged!
around!L.A.!for!a!little!while.!I!feel!like!that!started!this!ball!rolling!of!hornioriented!
bands,!where!I!could!write!voicings.!I!think!I!was!always!attracted!to!that,!to!
voicings.!So!I!did!a!record!in!L.A.!–!it!was!a!septet!record!–!and!then!I!moved!to!New!
York!and!I!did!a!series!of!nonet!records!for!five!horns,!which!I!had!written!while!I!
was!on!the!road!for!a!year.!I!was!doing!a!Broadway!show!tour,!and!I!got!really!tired!
of!playing!the!same!show!every!night.!It!was!like!therapy!–!I!had!to!do!something!
different,!I!had!to!write!something!different.!So!creatively,!the!well!was!running!dry!
and!I!had!to!do!something!about!that.!I!thought!about!what!I!had!available!in!the!pit!
orchestra!and!I!started!writing!for!that,!which!essentially!was!five!horns.!I!started!
asking!the!guys!to!come!in!a!little!early!to!the!theater!so!we!could!try!some!things!
out,!and!they!were!all!psyched!to!do!it!because!they!wanted!to!play!something!
different.!So!I!began!to!arrange!things!and!then!write!some!things!for!five!horns,!and!
I!started!thinking,!“Wow,!that’s!a!great!sound.”!I!really!started!to!learn!how!to!write!
for!five!by!doing!that!and!transcribing!some!Kenny!Wheeler!stuff!off!of!records,!a!lot!
of!Keith!Jarrett!voicings,!that!kind!of!thing.!I!was!a!big!fan!of!Dave!Holland!–!still!am!
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–!the!way!he!uses!counterpoint!and!rhythm!in!his!writing.!I!was!adopting!all!these!
kinds!of!styles!and!having!fun!adapting!it!to!five!horns,!so!when!I!got!off!the!road!
and!back!to!New!York!I!put!this!band!together!of!friends!of!mine!and!we!did!three!
records.!One!with!strings,!the!others!just!nonet,!and!it!was!just!a!band!that!I!had!
going.!We!were!playing!pretty!regularly!at!Smalls!and!other!venues,!and!it!was!a!
blast,!and!actually!I’m!going!to!rejuvenate!it!because!I!got!a!grant!to!write!a!new!
suite!of!music!for!nonet,!so!I’m!going!to!bring!those!guys!back!together.!It!was!so!
much!fun,!and!that!was!a!little!big!band!–!three!reeds,!two!brass!–!so!it!was!kind!of!
like!a!mini!reed!section!and!a!small!brass!section!of!trumpet!and!trombone.!I!wrote!
about!30i35!charts!for!that!band,!and!then!when!somebody!asked!me!to!do!a!big!
band!chart!for!their!college,!I!thought,!“Well!I!don’t!really!know!how!to!do!that,”!but!
of!course!I!told!them,!“Yeah,!sure,!I’d!love!to.”![laughs]!So!I!took!one!of!my!nonet!
tunes!and!I!just!kind!of!thought!about,!“Okay,!what!was!I!thinking!here?”!and!then!I!
realized!that!I!was!treating!the!brass!as!a!certain!choir!–!a!mini!choir!–!and!the!reeds!
as!a!certain!mini!choir,!and!then!I!thought,!“Well!in!a!big!band,!it’s!essentially!four!
different!choirs!–!a!trombone!choir,!trumpet!choir,!saxophone!five!note!choir,!and!a!
rhythm!section!choir.”!By!conceptualizing!it!that!way!and!writing!in!four!note!
voicings!and!five!note!voicings!for!the!horn!sections,!it!wasn’t!very!different!from!
what!I’d!been!doing!with!the!septet!and!the!nonet.!I!just!had!to!flesh!things!out!a!
little!more,!and!intuitively!it!was!an!easy!next!step,!so!I!think!going!from!nonet!to!big!
band!was!not!a!huge!leap.!In!a!way,!subconsciously!I!had!written!some!of!the!nonet!
tunes!for!big!band,!so!when!I!ultimately!rewrote!them!or!rearranged!them!for!big!
band,!it!was!like,!“Oh,!this!should!have!been!a!big!band!chart!to!begin!with.!It!works!
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much!better!this!way.”!So!that’s!kind!of!how!I!arrived!at!big!band,!by!doing!a!few!
commissions,!and!then!a!friend!of!mine!asked!me!to!lead!a!big!band!on!his!series!in!
Brooklyn,!and!again!I!just!put!together!a!bunch!of!my!friends!–!“Hey,!you!guys!want!
to!come!down!and!play?”!No!rehearsal,!I!just!brought!my!charts!and!we!just!went!for!
it,!and!ten!seconds!into!it!I!knew!that!I!wanted!to!keep!doing!this,!it!was!so!
addicting.!It’s!like!a!really!bad!drug.!You!know!ultimately!it’s!going!to!be!really!hard!
on!you,!leading!a!big!band!–!financially!and!time!wise!–!yet!you!can’t!stop!doing!it!
once!you!start.![laughs]!A!few!measures!in,!I!was!like,!“Oh!no,!here!we!go.”![laughs]!
But!I!had!to!do!it,!so!then!I!made!a!big!band!record,!and!I’m!glad!I!did!because!it!
really!fulfilled!a!musical!vision!that!I’d!had!sort!of!latently!for!many!years.!
JS:!What!sort!of!changes!has!the!university’s!presence!brought!to!big!band!and!jazz,!
and!what!potential!pitfalls!do!you!see!in!the!university!system?!
AF:!Ultimately,!I!think!it!comes!down!to!the!composers!writing!the!music!and!what!
their!motivation!is.!My!motivation!has!always!been!to!write!good!music!that!I!want!
to!play,!and!that!I!think!people!would!be!inspired!by,!and!inspired!to!play.!I!think!
where!the!danger!comes!in!is!when!people!write!big!band!music!for!a!school!and!
they!start!putting!grade!levels!on!it,!and!it’s!specifically!for!a!school.!Then!you’re!
getting!into!the!business!side!of!things,!you’re!writing!it!as!a!business!choice!rather!
than!an!artistic!choice,!and!to!me!that’s!reflected!in!the!music.!If!your!motivation!is!
to!write!a!chart!so!you!can!sell!it!and!make!money,!then!it’s!going!to!sound!like!that!
in!a!way.!If!your!motivation!is!just!to!simply!write!a!great!piece!of!music!that!makes!
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a!really!honest!artistic!statement,!then!I!think!the!university’s!role!in!playing!that!
kind!of!music!is!a!valuable!one:!to!help!disperse!good!music.!I!don’t!think!it’s!
necessarily!a!good!thing!when!the!businessioriented!music!starts!getting!played!a!
lot,!only!because!sometimes!that!music!artistically!–!and!again,!this!is!all!subjective,!
people!can!argue!this!–!but!sometimes!I!hear,!particularly!when!adjudicating!
festivals,!music!that!clearly!is!pandering!in!a!way!to!the!institution!or!to!a!student!
ensemble,!or!written!for!the!sake!of!selling!these!charts,!and!ultimately!for!me,!I!care!
about!my!students!and!their!exposure!to!good!art.!If!they’re!being!denied!that,!that’s!
where!it!becomes!a!problem,!because!then!they’re!being!exposed!to!things!that!
aren’t!honest!and!artistic!statements.!Then!that’s!perpetuated,!and!then!it!becomes!
a!business,!because!then!they!want!to!write!charts!and!sell!them,!and!the!business!
part!of!it!takes!over!and!the!artistic!part!starts!to!diminish.!I!think!ultimately,!it’s!not!
the!institution!so!much,!but!the!institution!creates!the!opportunity!to!sell!charts.!So!
for!people!with!dollar!signs!in!their!eyes,!that!is!a!road!to!take,!and!if!you!want!to!
sell!charts,!you!can!certainly!do!it.!Particularly,!there!is!a!certain!way!you!can!put!a!
chart!together!where!–!and!I!think!this!is!where!festivals!come!in,!because!the!
festivals!that!are!sort!of!competitive!festivals!where!they’re!graded,!and!there’s!a!
certain!score!sheet,!and!there’s!a!very!specific!list!of!criteria!on!the!sheet!–!
sometimes!it!awards!bands!for!things!that!one!of!those!businessioriented!charts!can!
nail,!so!a!lot!of!charts!are!written!as!festivaliwinning!charts.!Very!little!is!
improvised,!most!of!it!is!written!out,!the!rhythm!section!parts!are!essentially!
completely!composed,!because!the!writer’s!afraid!that,!God!forbid,!the!students!
might!take!some!artistic!liberties!and!there!might!be!some!failure!involved;!they!
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might!actually!not!succeed.!In!my!opinion,!it’s!really!important!to!fail.!As!a!musician,!
and!particularly!as!a!jazz!musician,!you!have!to!play!music!and!keep!playing!music!
that!provides!you!the!opportunity!to!fail,!because!it’s!only!through!failing!that!you!
are!enriched!and!learn!something.!If!you!play!charts!that!are!really!safe,!in!a!sense!
that!if!you!really!practice!them!and!get!all!the!notes!right,!they’re!going!to!come!off!
as!really!impressive,!at!least!for!one!or!two!listens,!then!yeah,!you’ll!win!a!
competition,!but!in!the!long!run!it’s!doing!the!student!a!disservice!I!think,!because!
you’re!denying!them!an!opportunity!to!spontaneously!interact.!Music!that!does!not!
allow!that!to!happen!is!kind!of!putting!a!stranglehold!on!an!individual’s!artistry!and!
spontaneous!decisions,!and!that’s!what!it’s!all!about.!If!we!talk!about!the!big!band!
tradition,!and!we!go!back!to!the!beginnings!of!big!band,!which!were!essentially!
territory!bands!with!no!charts,!just!making!stuff!up!with!a!big!band!–!Count!Basie,!
for!instance.!That!band!in!many!incarnations!didn’t!have!charts.!It!was!a!riffi
oriented!ensemble.!They!would!come!up!with!things!on!the!spot,!and!it!would!feel!
great.!Things!kind!of!developed!organically!with!those!bands,!and!I!think!that!that!
part!of!the!tradition!has,!in!a!lot!of!ways,!been!lost!as!things!have!gotten!more!
institutionalized,!because!you’ve!got!these!rigid!structures!and!these!competitions,!
and!you’ve!got!to!win!because!then!you’ve!got!to!draw!students.!There’s!pressure!
from!a!lot!of!sides!to!get!students!into!your!program,!and!it’s!not!always!a!good!
thing!to!pander.!Personally,!through!my!music,!I!try!not!to!forget!about!the!
beginnings!of!the!big!band!tradition,!in!which!there!was!a!lot!of!spontaneity!and!a!
lot!of!things!just!being!made!up!on!the!spot.!With!a!lot!of!new!big!band!charts,!you’re!
decreasing!a!sense!of!awareness!among!the!musicians,!because!they’re!just!focused!
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on!their!part!and!maybe!blending!with!the!section,!but!they’re!never!actually!forced!
to!make!creative!music!decisions!because!it’s!all!tightly!wound!in!the!arrangement.!
What!if!you!just!give!them!a!lead!sheet!and!then!tell!them!to!make!music!out!of!that?!
A!lot!of!times,!they!have!a!hard!time!doing!that,!because!there’s!a!lack!of!awareness:!
“Well,!usually!my!part’s!all!written!out,!and!it’s!creating!this!sort!of!background!
part.”!Well,!why!can’t!you!make!that!decision?!Then!there’s!a!sense!of!awareness!of!
how!you!kind!of!fit!in!with!the!larger!ensemble,!and!I!think!that’s!where!the!early!
tradition!of!territory!bands!and!whatnot!is!important.!They!were!forced!to!make!
those!decisions,!and!I!think!that!that!was!a!really!important!part!of!the!process.!So,!
jazz!education!has!become!big!business!for!sure.!Certainly!the!business!of!jazz!
education!is,!in!a!lot!of!ways,!larger!than!the!business!of!the!actual!music!if!you!look!
at!the!general!scene!in!the!clubs.!At!least!in!New!York,!most!of!the!clubs!where!jazz!
musicians!are!playing,!the!leaders!are!losing!money!and!the!sidemen!are!making!50i
60!bucks.!For!a!big!band,!that’s!good.![laughs]!You!really!have!to!love!doing!it!to!
make!that!kind!of!investment!in!this!day!and!age.!
JS:!What!do!you!see!in!the!future!of!big!band,!or!what!would!you!like!to!see?!
AF:!Well,!I!think!one!development!that!is!really!exciting!in!the!big!band!tradition!–!
and!I!can!see!it!continuing!to!go!in!this!direction!–!is!just!that!there’s!a!greater!
diversity!of!approaches!to!the!format.!You!see!that!a!lot!here!in!New!York,!of!course,!
because!it’s!such!a!multicultural!city.!I!play!in!a!lot!of!big!bands!here,!and!just!in!the!
last!few!weeks,!I!recorded!on!Miguel!Zenón’s!big!band!record,!which!is!totally!
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unique!in!the!sense!that!it!is!a!big!band,!but!it’s!incorporating!these!Puerto!Rican!
folk!melodies!and!these!really!amazing!Puerto!Rican!rhythmic!ideas,!which!to!my!
knowledge!hasn’t!been!done!like!that!before,!at!least!to!that!extent.!It’s!just!amazing!
music.!Pedro!Giraudo,!who!I!just!played!with!over!at!the!Jazz!Standard!is!another!
great!example!of!someone!from!Argentina!who!is!beautifully!combining!sort!of!a!
Duke!Ellington!aesthetic!with!these!Argentinean!folk!melodies!and!great!rhythmic!
undercurrent!to!the!music.!Guillermo!Klein!has!a!band!–!it’s!not!a!big!band!per!se,!
but!it’s!a!larger!ensemble!–!and!he’s!doing!a!lot!of!interesting!things,!drawing!from!a!
lot!of!different!sources.!So,!I!think!that!big!band!is!kind!of!becoming!a!format!for!
these!really!disparate!approaches,!which!I!think!is!great!because!it’s!moving!away!
from!the!stock!kind!of!approach,!kind!of!wrestling!it!away!from!Sammy!Nestico!–!
not!to!say!that’s!stock,!it’s!just!so!established!and!it’s!been!done.!In!Miguel!and!
Pedro’s!case,!and!my!case!as!well,!it!all!starts!with!a!smaller!ensemble!and!then!they!
flesh!it!out!because!the!big!band!is!such!an!important!part!of!the!lineage!of!the!
music.!This!is!where!every!university!should!provide!some!kind!of!exposure!to!big!
band!writing,!because!it’s!always!been!a!huge!part!of!the!tradition.!Playing!in!big!
bands,!learning!about!big!bands!–!that’s!an!important!thing,!you!know!–!learning!
about!the!big!band!tradition!and!how!to!write!for!it.!So!it’s!inspiring!to!me!to!see!all!
these!people!who!10!years!ago!I!never!would!have!guessed!would!have!made!a!big!
band!record!–!I!know!these!people!as!someone!with!a!quartet,!you!know,!they!have!
small!groups,!and!they!just!do!their!thing!–!to!see!them!making!big!band!records!
bodes!well!for!the!future!I!think,!in!terms!of!setting!a!lot!of!new!precedents!for!the!
ensemble!and!making!it!more!relevant.!The!more!people!like!that,!that!treat!the!big!
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band!that!way,!with!new,!current!music!–!relevant!music!–!then!it!makes!the!format!
of!the!big!band!more!relevant,!and!I!think!that’s!what!is!needed!for!the!big!band!to!
survive.!It!always!has!been.!Without!that,!the!big!band!would!die.!If!it!became!
museum!music,!it!wouldn’t!last.!It!would!become!petrified,!and!that!would!be!that.!
But,!as!I!look!into!the!crystal!ball,!I!see!more!developments!like!this!with!more!
people!tackling!the!big!band!with!their!music.!Just!these!exciting!developments!and!
what!they!do!with!it!–!I!think!it’s!really!cool!to!see!what!all!these!people!do!with!a!
big!band.!It’s!such!a!rich!tradition.!There!are!so!many!ways!to!treat!that!ensemble!–!I!
was!saying!the!four!choirs,!but!it!doesn’t!have!to!be!like!that!–!all!these!people!are!
writing!in!ways!that!have!nothing!to!do!with!the!drop!2!voicing,!and!spread!voicing,!
and!all!these!things.!They’ve!just!got!this!format,!and!they!make!it!work!for!their!
music.!I!think!looking!forward!into!the!future,!I!think!that’s!kind!of!where!it’s!going!
to!continue!to!go.!More!and!more!people!are!going!to!continue!to!do!that,!and!
fortunately!the!more!people!that!release!big!band!records!that!are!compelling!to!
listeners,!the!more!I!think!it!bodes!well!for!the!future!of!the!music.!We!need!more!
people!to!make!good!big!band!records!that!actually!have!a!certain!quality!to!the!
music!where!it!feels!in!the!now,!you!know.!Big!band!records!don’t!always!feel!like!a!
throwback.!When!you!just!say!the!word!“big!band,”!there’s!a!crusty!connotation!to!
that.!It’s!like!the!word!“jazz.”!People!refer!to!it!as!a!fouriletter!word.!People!are!
afraid!to!use!the!word!“big!band”!when!they!actually!put!together!their!own!big!
band,!because!they!don’t!want!people!to!think!that!it’s!like!“Shiny!Stockings,”!you!
know.![laughs]!As!long!as!people!keep!doing!new!things!with!it,!I!think!that!those!
two!words!will!hopefully!regain!some!kind!of!hipness!factor![laughs],!you!know,!
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where!people!won’t!be!like,!“Oh!god,!big!band!is!boring,”!or,!“Big!band!is!for!my!
grandparents,”!but!will!be!like,!“Oh!yeah,!big!band’s!cool.!I’m!going!to!go!check!that!
out.”!That’s!what!we!need,!so!that’s!what!I’m!going!to!be!hoping!for!in!the!future.!I’ll!
do!my!part,!but!I’m!just!hoping!a!lot!of!other!people!continue!to!do!it!as!well!and!not!
get!scared!away!by!it.!I!think!we!all!want!that,!at!least!jazz!musicians.!
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Heinrich!von!Kalnein!
Email!Interview!
August!2,!2015!
Heinrich(von(Kalnein(is(a(jazz(saxophonist(and(flutist(based(in(Graz,(Austria.(He(is(coE
leader(of(Jazz(Bigband(Graz,(an(ensemble(known(for(its(experimental(approach(to(big(
band(music.(
HvK:!The!task!of!developing!a!personal!ensemble!sound!and!keeping!a!large!
ensemble!running.!
players?!Are!preservation!and!innovation!necessarily!at!odds!with!one!another?!
HvK:!In!my!opinion!innovation!always!was!an!integral!part!of!jazz!history.!I!
personally!don't!see!any!reason!of!keeping!any!traditions!alive.!I!think!that!this!is!an!
integral!part!of!jazz!education!!Thus!innovation,!as!long!as!it!creates!something!valid!
automatically!will!be!part!of!any!tradition.!
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JS:!Jazz!Bigband!Graz!is!known!for!incorporating!nonitraditional!instruments!and!
techniques.!Are!there!some!instruments!and/or!techniques!that!you!feel!should!not!
be!included?!Or!does!the!addition!of!these!new!elements!serve!to!expand!the!appeal!
of!the!ensemble?!
HvK:!Definitely!the!latter!!There!are!no!limits!in!searching!for!new!sounds!i!except!
musical!reasons.!On!a!side!note:!sometimes!it's!not!so!much!about!the!instrument!
than!the!instrumentalist!!E.g.!we!didn't!take!electric!hurdyigurdy!player!Matthias!
Loibner!because!of!his!(rather!weird;i)!instrument,!but!because!of!his!openiminded!
personality!and!musical!expertise!!
JS:!Why!did!you!decide!to!start!a!big!band?!And!how!has!the!experience!been!in!
HvK:!HorstiMichael!and!I!took!over!the!band!in!a!moment!of!hesitation.!We!both!
never!thought!of!working!professionally!with!a!big!band!of!our!own.!Maybe!that's!
one!reason!why!we!try!to!approach!this!ensemble!rather!as!a!large!(smalli)!
ensemble!than!a!conventional!big!band.!The!financial!part!(getting!funds!and!grants!
etc.)!in!fact!is!a!huge!task,!which!eats!up!a!lot!of!energy!and!creativity.!Finding!the!
appropriate!gigs!also!is!a!hard!one,!since!most!international!promoters!are!afraid!of!
the!"hidden"!costs!(like!hotel!rooms,!travel!etc.).!The!longer!we!exist!the!easier!
things!seem!to!be!with!"official"!institutions,!governments!etc.,!though.!Still,!it's!a!lot!
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of!work,!which!very!often!has!more!to!do!with!convincing!people!than!writing,!
producing!and!performing.!In!the!end!the!latter!parts!are!the!fun!parts!!
HvK:!I'd!like!to!see!more!political!acceptance!i!and!less!cliché!in!writing!!
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Nate!Kimball!
Skype!Interview!
January!8,!2016!
Nate(Kimball(is(a(Las(Vegas(based(jazz(trombonist(and(composer.(Kimball(leads(his(
own(big(band(that(performs(his(compositions(exclusively.(Additionally,(Kimball(is(a(
musician(for(Cirque(du(Soleil.(
JS:!Tell!me!about!your!history!with!big!bands!–!how!you!got!into!it!initially!as!a!
player,!and!also!what!sparked!your!interest!in!writing!for!the!ensemble.!
NK:!I!started!playing!in!big!band!in!high!school,!so!I!really!didn’t!know!much!about!it!
before!that.!I!was!actually!originally!a!euphonium!player,!so!I!played!in!the!bands,!
but!the!jazz!band!director!at!the!time!needed!a!trombone!player,!so!he!reached!out!
to!me!about!halfway!through!high!school,!and!that’s!sort!of!what!sparked!my!
interest.!Honestly,!before!that!I!really!had!no!inkling!of!anything!big!band!related,!so!
that!was!probably!the!thing!that!started!it,!because!that!was!really!the!first!time!I!
started!improvising!and!hearing!that!color.!As!far!as!writing!for!it,!that!actually!
didn’t!come!until!later!either.!Everything!for!me!I!feel!came!later!than!most!people.!
That!came!more!towards!college,!after!I!had!studied!for!a!couple!of!years!with!Virko!
[Baley],!and!then!I!just!decided!to!switch!over!to!the!jazz!department!because,!again,!
that!color!just!sort!of!drew!me.!For!the!first!time,!I!started!to!hear!Maria!Schneider!
and!Bob!Mintzer,!and!some!of!those!colors!that!I!didn’t!realize!a!big!band!could!do.!
So!that!sort!of!got!me!more!interested!in!writing!for!that!color.!
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JS:!Absolutely.!My!interest!in!it!actually!came!quite!late!as!well.!I!mean,!I!listened!to!
it,!but!it!wasn’t!until!I!got!to!UNLV!before!I!started!becoming!interested!in!it,!so!I!
definitely!feel!you!on!that!one.![laughs]!So!your!band!recently!released!an!album.!
Tell!me!about!the!process!of!putting!that!whole!thing!together,!from!a!logistical!
standpoint!and!finding!players,!and!how!you!find!money!to!record!a!big!band.!One!of!
the!things!that’s!kind!of!cool!about!media!technologies!now!is!that!it’s!easier!to!get!
your!music!out!once!you’ve!got!it!recorded,!but!recording!a!group!of!that!size!isn’t!
something!you!can!do!in!a!home!studio.![laughs]!
NK:!That!project!was!a!long!time!coming.!A!lot!of!things!had!to!happen!to!save!up!for!
that.!I!wish!I!could!say!that!I!was!independently!wealthy!and!I!could!just!do!things!
like!this!all!the!time.!It!was!just!something!I!was!planning!on!doing!for!a!long!time,!
so!it!was!a!combination!of!things!that!contributed.!First,!some!of!the!concerts!I!did!
allowed!me!to!apply!for!grants,!so!I!was!awarded!some!grants!that!contributed!to!
the!album.!Also,!the!creation!of!my!company,!Natek!Music,!allowed!me!to!start!to!get!
my!charts!sold,!and!that!allowed!me!a!little!bit!of!passive!income!from!my!website!
from!sales!of!music.!Finally,!to!be!quite!honest,!real!estate!–!I!still!have!my!real!
estate!license!and!was!looking!at!those!commissions!as!going!towards!the!album.!So!
I!finally!got!to!a!point!where!I!had!enough!to!actually!do!it.!That’s!where!the!
financial!end!came!from,!so!it!was!a!combination!of!all!those!things.!The!logistics!of!
finding!19!people!to!get!in!the!same!place!at!the!same!time!is!tough.!I!already!
generally!knew!the!people!I!wanted!to!use,!so!my!methodology!when!booking!a!big!
band!is!book!early!and!communicate!frequently.![laughs]!The!very!first!thing!I!did!
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was!book!the!recording!dates.!I!knew!I!wanted!to!try!to!get!it!done!in!two!
rehearsals,!three!dates.!I!wanted!to!make!sure!that!everyone!had!already!been!on!
top!of!the!music!so!that!when!we!got!into!rehearsal!it!was!ready!to!go.!And!mostly!
that’s!how!it!worked,!so!it!was!really!nice.!Once!I!booked!the!dates,!I!tried!to!make!it!
at!times!that!were!early!enough!that!people!wouldn’t!bitch!too!much,!but!also!they!
could!get!to!their!shows.!I!did!that,!and!a!lot!of!the!guys!I!reached!out!to!and!asked!to!
do!it!were!totally!down.!They!were!willing!to!accommodate.!There!were!just!a!few!
people!who!couldn’t!do!it.!They!just!couldn’t!budge,!so!I!found!some!other!people!for!
that.!But!for!the!most!part,!they!were!all!down.!So!we!booked!the!rehearsal!space!
and!the!studio,!and!at!the!rehearsals!for!the!most!part!everyone!could!make!it!–!
there!were!a!couple!of!subs,!but!it!wasn’t!that!big!of!a!deal.!We!all!had!worked!that!
out!in!advance.!And!then!we!just!recorded!it.!It!was!pretty!straight!ahead!from!that!
point!on,!once!the!booking!was!solved.!That’s!about!it,!to!be!honest.!
JS:!So!how!did!the!collaboration!with!Jennifer!Batten!come!about?!I!have!to!tell!you,!I!
love!that!tune.!It’s!something!that!I!didn’t!expect!at!all.!I!actually!showed!it!to!one!of!
my!friends!while!we!were!on!the!road,!and!he!looked!over!at!me!and!said,!“Is!this!
really!happening?”![laughs]!And!I!said,!“Yeah,!this!is!really!happening.”!So!how!did!
that!collaboration!come!about?!
NK:!Well,!it!was!very!lucky!because!our!guitarist!at!Zumanity!had!to!go!on!maternity!
leave,!and!she!just!happened!to!be!friends!with!Jennifer!Batten!through!her!chick!
guitar!circle.!So!Jennifer!Batten!wound!up!on!the!gig!for!roughly!six!months.!We!
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used!to!hang!out!and!talk!all!the!time.!She!told!old!Michael!Jackson!stories,!and!it!
was!just!so!badass!and!she!was!just!killing,!as!you!can!hear.!So!it!was!sort!of!around!
the!same!time!that!I!was!piecing!together!the!idea!of!doing!a!big!band!album,!so!I!
just!sort!of!gave!her!the!idea,!“Hey,!I!might!be!doing!this!big!band!album.!Would!you!
be!down,!because!I!think!I!might!have!something!for!you!to!play!on.”!She!was!like,!
“Yeah,!cool,”!and!when!the!time!came!I!just!sent!her!a!Facebook!message!to!make!
sure!she!was!still!down.!She!cut!me!a!really!awesome!rate!on!it!because!she’s!cool.!
[laughs]!I!just!sent!her!the!music!and!the!really!shitty!MIDI!backing!track!–!well,!I!
sent!her!the!MIDI!track!at!first,!but!I!had!all!the!correct!tracks!later,!so!she!wound!up!
recording!with!that.!She!just!laid!down!one!really!awesome!solo,!and!that!was!it.!She!
sent!it!my!way!and!was!like,!“Well,!here’s!your!solo.”!No!questions!–!it!wasn’t!like,!
“Pick!one!of!these,”!it!was!like,!“Here’s!the!solo.”!And!it!was!the!solo.![laughs]!
JS:!Absolutely.![laughs]!
NK:!I!was!pretty!happy!with!it.!It!shredded!pretty!hard.!Yeah,!so!she!and!I!still!talk,!
and!she’s!awesome.!
JS:!I!also!have!to!say!that!I!was!impressed!with!the!breadth!of!styles!represented!on!
your!album.!It’s!really!refreshing!to!hear!such!a!wide!range!of!styles,!sounds,!and!
textures.!Are!you!working!on!any!new!charts?!
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NK:!No!albums!right!now.!I!have!a!lot!of!things!going!on,!but!not!writing!wise.!I!was!
commissioned!to!write!a!piece!for!a!British!brass!band!and!a!baritone!soloist.!I!also!
have!a!commission!from!the!Las!Vegas!Academy!to!write!a!big!band!chart!for!them,!
and!they!actually!hired!our!band!to!be!the!headliner!on!their!upcoming!jazz!festival!
in!April.!I’ll!probably!be!writing!some!new!stuff!for!that,!because!I’m!sure!people!are!
sick!of!hearing!“Gaea”!at!this!point.![laughs]!I!want!to!introduce!some!new!stuff!just!
to!say,!“Hey,!I!can!still!write.”!That’s!about!it!for!the!newer!writing!projects!I’ve!been!
doing,!for!now!at!least.!
JS:!You!write!stuff!for!younger!bands!too,!right?!
NK:!Yeah,!so!that’s!actually!a!new!thing!I!just!released!–!the!Young!Ensembles!Jazz!
Series.!I!just!wanted!to!make!some!stupidly!easy!music!for!those!ensembles!to!play!
that!hopefully!isn’t!cancerously!bad.!
JS:!I!was!going!to!ask!you!about!that.!I!know!Bob!Mintzer!has!some!music!for!young!
bands!too,!but!not!a!whole!lot!of!people!write!for!young!bands.!I!think!it’s!nice!to!see!
some!serious!jazz!composers!writing!for!younger!bands,!because!a!lot!of!the!stuff!
that’s!available!isn’t!necessarily!all!that!great.!So!how!do!you!go!about!writing!an!
easy!tune!that!has!some!level!of!artistic!integrity,!something!you’re!willing!to!put!
your!name!on?![laughs]!
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NK:!Well,!there’s!a!lot!you!have!to!forfeit!when!writing!for!an!ensemble!like!that,!
especially!when!you!get!to!the!middle!school!level.!When!you’re!writing!grade!1!and!
grade!2!material,!you!pretty!much!have!to!forfeit!the!artistic!endeavor!at!that!point!
because!there’s!just!so!many!limitations!placed!on!the!music.!Really!the!only!thing!
I’m!trying!to!do!is!write!a!pretty!melody,!something!that’s!singable!and!catchy,!and!
hopefully!the!content!isn’t!so!bad!that!I!would!feel!bad!writing!music,!which!it!did!
sort!of!wind!up!being,!but!I!had!to!commit!to!it.!Even!the!feedback!that!I!got!from!
middle!school!directors!was!like,!“Yeah,!this!is!good.!This!is!what!we!need.”!And!
there’s!really!not!a!lot!of!room!to!reach!out!too!far!because!it!seems!like!a!lot!of!the!
techniques!I!would!want!to!use!to!write!more!elaborate!music!for!a!middle!school!is!
just!impossible.!I!think!there!are!some!middle!school!band!directors!who!are!willing!
to!try,!and!they’re!brave!souls.!I!had!a!high!school!band!purchase!“Namaste.”!
[laughs]!It!was!a!band!in!Stockton,!California,!so!I!guess!they’re!ripping!on!it!pretty!
hard!now.!But!for!middle!school,!it’s!a!whole!other!story.!I!guess!that’s!a!longwinded!
way!to!answer!your!question.!You!do!have!to!forfeit!some!things,!I!feel.!Or!maybe!I!
just!haven’t!found!that!balance!yet!and!I’m!still!searching!for!it.!
JS:!Well,!you!know,!some!of!the!simplest!music!in!the!world!is!Mozart,!so!I!think!
there!is!some!middle!ground!there.!I!think!it’s!tough!maybe!within!the!jazz!world!
because!things!have!become!so!harmonically!complex!that!it’s!hard!to!figure!out!
how!to!dial!that!back!and!still!get!something!workable.!
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Back!when!there!were!a!lot!of!working!bands,!a!lot!of!people!came!up!and!got!their!
education!on!the!bandstand.!They!would!sit!in!and!learn!from!older!players,!and!
there!would!be!a!lot!of!apprenticeship!going!on.!Now!that!there!aren’t!really!touring!
bands!the!way!there!once!was!and!a!lot!of!the!big!bands!are!now!in!the!university!
system,!do!you!think!that!the!same!sort!of!apprenticeship!is!still!possible!in!that!
environment,!and!what!effects!has!the!university!system!had!on!jazz!in!general?!
That’s!a!big,!loaded!question,!so!you!can!speak!to!any!part!of!that!you’d!like.![laughs]!
NK:!Okay,!so!I!guess!I’ll!start!with!my!personal!experience!with!this,!because!I!feel!
that!it’s!maybe!a!little!different!than!some!people’s!experience.!When!I!was!getting!
my!undergraduate!degree,!I!was!hired!on!to!a!6!piece!Dixieland!jazz!band!at!the!Gold!
Coast!hotel,!and!I!feel!like!that!was!my!apprenticeship.!I!worked!there!for!3!½!years,!
and!it!was!a!band!with!5!other!guys,!the!most!important!of!whom!was!Tom!Ehlen,!
who!was!just!an!absolutely!Ailist!world!class!trumpet!player!in!town.!When!I!first!
got!on!the!band,!he!would!pull!me!aside!every!set!break!and!say,!“No,!you!don’t!play!
that,!you!don’t!play!this.!This!is!how!you!do!this.!This!is!how!you!phrase!this.!You’re!
playing!this!note!too!long.”!And!I!could!tell!it!came!from!just!his!own!frustration!
with!me.![laughs]!He!just!was!like,!“I!need!to!make!this!right,!otherwise!I’m!going!to!
go!insane.”!So!he!would!sit!there!on!every!set!break!and!go!through!things,!and!
finally!that!list!got!less!and!less,!and!I!was!really!getting!it!and!blending!with!him!on!
that!level,!or!close!to!it,!and!I!became!much!more!aware!of!what!needs!to!actually!
happen.!Even!though!that!opportunity!is!rare,!I!feel!like!there!are!so!many!other!
things,!like!rehearsal!bands!and!things!like!that!that!might!not!necessarily!pay,!but!
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provide!that!sort!of!outiofiacademia!experience!that!players!need.!So!I!don’t!think!
that!experience!will!ever!necessarily!be!dead.!I!think!they!just!need!to!be!found!and!
approached!with!an!open!mind,!rather!than!coming!from!the!very!stubborn!“how!
much!does!it!pay?”!concept,!which!I!know!is!important.!It!is!important!to!earn!your!
bread,!but!you!can!work!at!Starbucks!and!then!go!play!in!rehearsal!bands.!I’m!upset!
by!a!lot!of!young!people’s!refusal!to!take!a!workhorse!job!just!to!cover!their!ass,!and!
then!gripe!about!rehearsal!bands!not!paying.!It!just!doesn’t!make!sense,!that!
mentality.!But!that’s!one!little!nugget!of!people.!
Moving!on!to!academia’s!role!in!all!of!this,!I!think!that!just!like!always,!academia!is!
important.!I!think!it!makes!people!well!rounded!ultimately.!It!gives!them!a!different!
kind!of!foundation!and!a!lot!of!different!knowledge.!Where!the!problem!is,!and!was,!
and!always!will!be,!is!in!students’!approach!to!academia.!Academia!will!always!be!
what!you!take!from!it,!and!if!you!decide!that!academia!is!the!mother!tit!that’s!going!
to!feed!you!for!eternity,!then!that’s!exactly!how!you’ll!sound,!and!that’s!exactly!how!
you’ll!approach!life,!and!that’s!exactly!who!you’ll!be.!If!you!take!it!and!realize!that!
there!are!invaluable!lessons!to!be!learned!and!invaluable!connections!to!be!made!
and!you!get!from!it!exactly!what!you!need!and!sort!of!ignore!the!rest![laughs],!then!I!
think!it!can!be!a!very,!very!important!and!fruitful!thing.!I!guess!that’s!where!I!stand!
on!it.!I!don’t!think!that!having!ensembles!in!every!school!is!a!bad!thing.!I!think!it’s!a!
great!thing.!I!think!the!more!music!we!have!in!the!world,!the!better!off!we!are.!I!
think!the!reason!why!genres!change!and!the!reason!why!things!change!in!music!is!
because!of!the!people!who!generate!it!and!their!outlook.!It’s!not!the!schools!that!are!
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to!blame,!it’s!the!people!who!create!the!music!and!their!outlook,!and!how!open!of!a!
mind!they!have!and!how!humble!they!are!in!music.!That’s!where!I’m!coming!from.!
The!more!you!find!yourself!blaming!other!things!for!the!problems!that!exist,!the!
more!you’re!contributing!to!them.!
JS:!Absolutely.!I!feel!like!there’s!so!much!available!at!the!schools,!and!at!least!in!my!
experience!the!students!who!ended!up!being!successful!really!soaked!up!everything!
they!possibly!could.!They’re!the!ones!who!were!spending!extra!time!knocking!on!
professor’s!doors,!and!I!don’t!think!that!kind!of!thing!has!changed!at!all!from!the!
past,!it’s!just!now!in!a!different!building.!You’re!in!a!different!situation,!but!it’s!still!
the!people!who!are!willing!to!put!in!the!extra!time!and!are!doing!it!because!they!
want!to!do!it!and!not!because!they!just!happen!to!like!it.!
NK:!Yeah,!I!think!that’s!exactly!right,!and!I!don’t!think!that!will!change.!People!will!
be!who!they!are,!and!if!they!find!a!change!on!their!path,!then!that’s!great,!but!if!they!
persist!and!close!their!mind!and!keep!their!ears!plugged!and!eyes!closed,!there’s!not!
much!you!can!do!for!that.!
JS:!This!is!a!somewhat!related!question:!What!responsibility,!if!any,!do!you!think!
current!bands!have!in!preserving!or!continuing!to!perform!older!material?!And!if!
there!is!some!amount!of!responsibility,!how!would!you!balance!that!with!the!
performance!of!new!tunes?!
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NK:!I!think!preservation!of!heritage!is!crucial!to!our!country,!really.!It’s!crucial!to!
our!music.!It’s!crucial!to!everything.!Whenever!I!write,!I!always!try!to!incorporate!
things!that!are!at!least!reminiscent!if!not!directly!influenced!by!styles!of!the!past.!As!
far!as!balancing!that,!my!role!as!a!big!band!director!with!my!own!group!would!be,!
and!hopefully!will!be!once!I!have!the!funds!to!do!it,!to!perform!concerts!that!are!
tributes!to!certain!people!or!tributes!to!certain!styles!or!eras!and!really!educate!
people!about!the!music,!and!then!transition!to!how!I!learned!from!it.!For!example,!
I’ve!always!mentioned!in!the!past!that!Gil!Evans!is!a!huge!influence!of!mine,!so!I!
would!usually!preface!that!comment!with!a!tune!that!I!feel!was!sort!of!Gil!Evans!
influenced,!and!hopefully!the!people!who!are!familiar!with!that!can!hear!it!in!the!
music,!and!if!not,!if!it’s!just!some!guy!who!doesn’t!know!the!first!thing!about!big!
band!and!just!heard!Gil!Evans’!name!for!the!first!time,!maybe!he’ll!go!check!it!out.!So!
that’s!one!more!person!who!knows!who!Gil!Evans!is.![laughs]!So!it’s!crucial,!but!I!
think!the!other!side!of!it!is!just!as!important.!It!just!really!depends!on!what!you’re!
setting!out!to!do.!I!know!there!are!a!lot!of!bands!that!are!really!on!the!cutting!edge,!
and!everything!they!do!ultimately!is!preserving!history!through!progress.!For!a!
group!like!mine!where!it’s!already!a!big!band,!so!the!instrumentation!is!set!in!
tradition,!I!do!feel!a!certain!obligation!to!do!that!myself,!but!I!wouldn’t!blame!
someone!for!not!feeling!that.!
JS:!Okay,!so!one!last!question.!This!is!one!I’ve!been!asking!everyone.!Either!what!do!
you!see!in!the!future!for!big!bands!or!what!would!you!like!to!see?!
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NK:!That’s!a!really!good!question.!I!guess!everything!is!sort!of!happening!the!way!I!
would!like!it!to.!I!wouldn’t!really!mess!with!the!way!things!are!going,!because!I!think!
they’re!on!a!very!natural!course!right!now.!I!think!if!they!die!out,!then!we’re!
partially!to!blame.![laughs]!If!they!progress,!then!I!think!we’re!also!partially!to!
blame.!There!are!a!lot!of!things!I!could!answer!to!that.!I!could!say!that!I’d!love!for!
them!to!get!bigger!or!smaller,!or!go!on!tour!more,!or!go!on!tour!less,!or!be!employed!
more,!and!those!things!would!all!be!valid,!but!ultimately!I!guess!my!answer!would!
be!that!I!would!always!like!there!to!be!attention!to!it!because!I!feel!it’s!an!important!
part!of!our!past.!I!think!it’s!a!great!thing!for!young!writers!to!learn!to!write!for,!
because!it’s!simple,!but!has!a!lot!of!potential!for!complexity.!I!think!it’s!a!great!
vehicle!for!young!players!to!learn!a!lot!of!important!lessons!in!playing!so!that!when!
they!do!grow!up![laughs]!and!get!out!of!school!and!play!in!rock!bands,!really!
progressive!ensembles,!and!those!types!of!things!they’re!that!much!better!of!a!
player!for!having!that!experience.!I!guess!I!would!like!it!to!continue!how!it!is.!I!
would!like!for!people!to!continue!shining!a!light!on!it,!however!they!do,!whether!it!
means!playing!in!it,!whether!it!means!writing!for!it,!whether!it!means!directing!it,!
teaching!it,!whatever!that!means!I!would!just!like!the!light!to!never!die.!
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Tom!Kubis!
Email!Interview!
July!8,!2015!
Tom(Kubis(is(a(Los(Angeles(based(jazz(saxophonist,(flutist,(and(composer.(Kubis(works(
in(film(and(television(as(both(a(composer/arranger(and(a(studio(musician,(in(addition(
to(leading(his(own(big(band.(
TK:!It!was!funny.!I!found!that!whatever!I!had!available!in!front!of!me,!I!would!write!
for.!So!when!I!started!writing,!I!was!writing!for!this!little!Dixieland!band!I!was!
playing!with!–!my!dad!was!actually!playing!drums!–!and!it!was!kind!of!fun!to!be!able!
to!write!for!the!3!horns.!Then,!when!I!was!at!Huntington!Beach!High!School,!they!
had!a!band!there,!and!I!just!wanted!to!write!something.!A!few!of!the!things!were!
pretty!horrible,!some!funny!things!happened!for!sure!as!far!as!voicings,!but!I!was!
learning.!No!matter!what,!I!enjoyed!writing!for!whatever.!I!think!one!thing!that!
really!was!a!big!spark!was!an!arrangement!on!the!Terry!Gibbs!Big!Band!called!
“Sweet!Georgia!Brown”!that!Manny!Albam!did,!and!that!particular!chart!started!me!
getting!really!thrilled!about!what!a!big!band!could!do.!It’s!a!really!remarkable!chart!
in!a!lot!of!ways.!I’ve!talked!to!people!who!know!about!that!arrangement!and!some!of!
the!things!that!went!down!on!it,!and!I!felt!that!it!was!really!a!landmark!chart!for!
what!a!big!band!could!do,!and!that!really!sparked!my!interest.!Thad!Jones!also!
changed!my!life,!and!changed!everybody’s!life.!We!could!use!bigger!chords!now.!
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[laughs]!That!was!another!thing!in!kind!of!changing!the!way!I!wrote,!you!know,!out!
of!the!old!Basie!style.!
JS:!The!education!and!development!of!jazz!musicians!has!often!involved!the!practice!
of!apprenticeship.!The!big!band!has!frequently!been!the!site!of!this!apprenticeship,!
with!younger!players!learning!styles!and!techniques!organically!through!
interactions!with!their!older!counterparts.!Now!that!there!are!fewer!working!bands,!
big!bands!are!most!prevalent!in!the!university!system.!Is!the!same!sort!of!
apprenticeship!still!possible!within!the!academic!setting?!
TK:!Yes!and!no.!One!of!the!things!that!I’ve!noticed!is!that!the!hiring!practices!of!
universities!now!seems!to!be!more!about!theorists!rather!than!actual!players.!That’s!
just!the!way!they’re!gearing!the!hiring!system.!So!because!of!that,!you!will!definitely!
lose!the!great!musicians!having!a!chance!to!work!with!the!younger!players,!because!
they’re!not!hiring!those!people.!They’re!hiring!with!a!different!mindset,!and!it!seems!
to!be!pretty!prevalent!wherever!they!go.!I!wish!hiring!great!players!was!more!
prevalent!in!the!university!system.!It!would!be!great,!but!it’s!hard!to!get!the!younger!
players!and!the!older!players!together.!I!do!it!with!my!big!band!upon!occasion.!I!
have!a!high!school!soloist!come!in!and!play!with!my!band!and!get!a!chance!to!work!
with!those!people.!Disneyland!has!a!very!good!kind!of!thing!where!they!have!kind!of!
a!clinic!program!out!here!in!Anaheim,!but!it’s!a!tough!one.!It’s!harder!and!harder!for!
musicians!to!get!together.!We!have!a!lot!of!big!bands!that!are!working!in!the!LA!
area,!and!so!there!is!a!little!bit!of!that.!There’s!a!nice!transition!now!of!younger!
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players!coming!in.!I’m!the!old!guy!now.![laughs]!But!that!seems!to!be!helping!as!well!
–!a!lot!of!guys!with!questions,!so!it’s!kind!of!like!more!lessoniish!than!anything!else.!
JS:!What!effects!do!you!think!the!university!has!had!on!the!music?!
TK:!I!think!as!long!as!there’s!some!music!going,!it’s!really!great,!if!the!teacher!is!
positive.!It’s!all!up!to!how!good!the!instructor!is!and!how!positive.!In!all!the!arts,!no!
matter!what!level!you’re!at,!you’re!putting!your!heart!and!soul!into!it.!You!need!
support,!and!sometimes!not!everybody!gives!you!that.!You!need!the!support,!and!
you!need!to!find!that!great!teacher.!I!was!surrounded!by!them!–!Dr.!Charles!
Rutherford!at!Orange!Coast!College,!and!John!Prince!at!Long!Beach!State!were!such!
a!positive!influence!on!just!wanting!to!make!music,!and!that!was!the!big!thing!–!not!
putting!down!music!or!making!it!too!hard.!They!saw!what!you!could!do!and!let!you!
do!it.!They!were!the!best!thing!for!me.!
band!charts?!
TK:!A!little!bit.!Now!you!can!hear!everything!on!YouTube,!so!you!can!go!back!and!
hear!the!old!Lunceford!charts,!or!the!early!Count!Basie,!or!early!Duke!Ellington.!You!
can!hear!those!things!and!listen!to!them,!so!that!is!fine.!As!far!as!playing!them,!I!
don’t!know.!I!think!playing!new!stuff!is!really!good.!As!far!as!being!in!a!studio,!you!
have!to!have!the!ability!to!play!all!of!these!arrangements!at!one!time,!so!if!someone!
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says,!“We’re!going!to!do!this!in!an!Ellingtoniish!kind!of!fashion,”!or!“We’re!going!to!
do!this!in!a!Sammy!Nestico!fashion,”!or!Count!Basie!or!whatever,!you!need!to!know!
that!so!that!you!can!do!that!in!the!studio.!So!that’s!really!part!of!your!responsibility!
as!a!studio!player!–!to!know!all!the!different!sounds.!Billy!May!had!a!certain!way!of!
writing!for!saxophones.!You!better!know!what!that!is!if!you’re!going!into!a!studio.!So!
there!are!those!kinds!of!things.!There!are!different!ways!of!playing!trumpet,!trumpet!
sounds,!how!they!played!in!the!40’s.!It’s!stuff!you!need!to!research!before!you!start!
performing.!Studio!situations!now!could!be!contemporary!music,!could!be!oldi
fashioned!music!that!movies!use,!period!music,!so!you!really!need!to!know!
everything.!
JS:!Are!preservation!and!innovation!necessarily!at!odds!with!one!another?!
TK:!That’s!a!great!question.!Probably.!They!shouldn’t!be,!but!probably.!I!notice!a!
contemporary!style!of!big!band,!which!is!kind!of!an!all!encompassing!way!of!going!
about!it,!with!a!lot!of!incredibly!new!techniques!mixed!in!with!the!classic!styles!–!
Gordon!Goodwin!is!a!good!example.!I!see!and!hear!a!lot!of!that!with!contemporary!
writers.!Gordon,!of!course,!knows!all!the!different!styles!because!he’s!played!all!the!
different!styles.!He!came!up!the!way!we!all!did!back!in!the!70’s,!and!so!he’s!played!
the!classic!styles,!he!knows!that.!I!always!worry,!as!everybody!does,!about!the!
people!who!are!starting!today!not!recognizing!the!old!styles!and!not!doing!the!
research!on!them,!and!just!trying!to!reinvent!the!wheel!with!new!stuff!without!going!
back!and!finding!the!way!chord!changes!actually!work,!or!how!they!started,!or!the!
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way!melodies!work,!to!understand!melodies!like!the!way!Louis!Armstrong!played,!
how!he!created!a!melody!or!how!he!built!a!solo.!Those!kinds!of!things!tend!to!get!
lost!unless!there’s!some!research!done!on!it.!But!progress!is!progress,!and!it’s!
always!interesting!to!see!where!it!all!goes.!
JS:!You!have!embraced!new!technologies!for!distribution,!specifically!in!offering!
your!charts!through!your!website.!Do!you!think!that!new!media!technologies!offer!
more!opportunities!for!aspiring!big!band!composers?!
TK:!The!answer!is!an!obvious!yes,!because!you!can!get!to!people!who!have!your!
same!likes.!It!was!so!difficult!before.!I!used!to!have!to!send!out!flyers!and!hope!that!
it!got!to!the!people!who!were!interested.!Now,!people!who!are!interested!can!come!
to!the!website!and!get!what!they!need,!and!those!people!who!are!interested!can!
hear!what!the!new!stuff!is,!so!the!whole!web!thing!is!great.!And!even!stuff!through!
iTunes,!getting!stuff!to!people!–!I!know!there!are!different!discussions!on!this!–!but!
even!the!ability!to!get!your!music!out,!where!you!couldn’t!do!that!before!when!I!was!
coming!up,!is!hilariously!wonderful.!
JS:!What!do!you!see!in!the!future!for!big!band?!
TK:!Heartache.![laughs]!No!money,!but!of!course!it’s!always!been!that!way.!I’d!love!
to!see!it!keep!going.!I!think!musicians!need!to!see!how!I!do!my!band,!how!Gordon!
does!his!band.!I!come!from!a!guy!named!Bob!Cassens,!who!had!a!band,!and!I!learned!
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so!much!from!doing!that.!I!really!dedicate!my!performances!to!how!he!led!his!band!
when!we!would!perform.!You!really!have!to!see!how!it’s!in!the!charge!of!the!leader,!
or!those!people!who!help!the!leader.!I!have!so!much!help!in!my!big!band.!I!have!
sound!guys.!I!have!guys!who!book!soloists,!or!keep!the!venue!going.!Then!I’m!in!
charge!of!the!music,!library!work,!and!I’m!the!MC!in!my!band.!But!you!need!to!see!
how!that!works.!Jazz!bands!are!for!fun,!so!it’s!going!to!be!for!entertainment,!and!it!
has!to!be!something!that!people!can!understand.!You!need!to!be!able!to!talk!to!the!
people!and!communicate!and!get!the!students!involved!and!coming!to!see!
performances.!That’s!what!I!see!for!the!future.!I’d!love!to!see!more!big!bands,!or!just!
more!bands!with!horns,!and!that’s!always!exciting!unto!itself.!Sometimes!it’s!
impossible!to!get!everybody!in!one!place!at!one!time,!but!I!want!to!just!see!more!
music!out!there.!And!I!think!it’s!happening,!I!really!do.!I!look!at!YouTube!and!I!see!all!
these!marvelous!players,!and!I!hope!for!the!best.!Some!of!them!are!really!young,!and!
you!just!hope!that!their!life!is!full!of!music!and!they!don’t!get!discouraged!and!just!
keep!on!playing.!I!blindly!do!this.!I!just!keep!going!at!it!every!day,!and!I!love!it.!It!
seems!to!have!paid!off.!I!have!a!great!time!doing!it,!made!a!good!living!at!it,!and!
that’s!really!all!that!matters.![laughs]!
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John!La!Barbera!
Email!Interview!
July!15,!2015!
John(La(Barbera(is(a(jazz(trumpeter(and(composer/arranger.(La(Barbera(is(known(for(
his(compositions(and(arrangements(for(many(big(band(leaders,(most(notably(Buddy(
Rich.(La(Barbera(is(currently(professor(of(jazz(and(music(industry(at(the(University(of(
Louisville.(
JLB:!Of!the!three!brothers!(Pat,!John!&!Joe)!I!was!the!one!who!usually!copied!the!
combo!arrangements!from!the!LPs.!!I!had!an!ear!for!it!and!eventually!discovered!big!
bands!like!Woody!Herman,!Count!Basie,!etc.!and!often!heard!them!live.!!The!sheer!
power!of!the!ensembles!made!me!want!to!know!how!they!worked!and!how!
arrangements!were!made.!!I!remembering!getting!an!issue!of!Down!Beat!and!seeing!
Jimmy!Heath's!arrangement!of!"Big!P"!and!being!so!excited!to!see!an!actual!score.!!I!
mentioned!that!to!him!a!few!years!ago!and!I!guess!I!wasn't!the!only!one.!
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apprenticeship!still!possible!within!the!academic!setting?!And!what!effects!do!you!
think!the!university!has!had!on!the!music?!
JLB:!Yes!it!was!an!apprenticeship!and!I!find!myself!wishing!those!bands!were!still!
around!so!my!students!could!learn!from!elders!schooled!by!the!road.!!I!think!as!
fewer!educators!now!have!ever!actually!experienced!being!in!a!section!and!learning!
balance,!pacing,!etc.,!I!believe!the!big!band!is!evolving!into!a!collegium!that!has!a!
sort!of!homogenized!feel!and!sound.!!I!am!not!saying!that!is!a!bad!thing!but!it's!a!
different!feel!and!presentation.!
JLB:!Just!as!our!symphony!orchestras!continue!to!program!the!classics!but!also!try!
to!introduce!new!music,!so!must!the!big!bands,!commercial!or!otherwise.!
JS:!How!was!your!experience!working!with!Buddy!Rich?!There!are!certainly!a!lot!of!
stories!that!circulate!about!Buddy!that!don’t!necessarily!put!him!in!the!best!light,!
but!all!the!people!I’ve!spoken!with!who!actually!played!with!him!portray!him!as!a!
complex!individual!who!cared!deeply!about!the!music.!
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JLB:!Yes!he!was!a!complex!person.!!I!personally!believe!because!he!had!no!formal!
schooling,!he!hid!a!lot!of!his!weaknesses!through!bravado.!!I!remembering!going!to!
his!room!one!time!when!we!were!getting!ready!to!record!and!he!was!reading!a!
psychology!book!while!eating!breakfast.!If!you!were!a!pro!he!would!give!you!your!
lead!but!if!you!didn't!give!full!focus!or!effort,!he'd!be!all!over!you.!!I!learned!a!lot!
about!audiences!and!timing!and!programming!charts.!!He!would!cut!things!from!my!
charts!sometimes!because!of!this!or!that!and!he!was!always!right.!!He!was!very!
serious!about!the!music!and!had!a!voracious!appetite!for!new!charts.!!I!was!the!
beneficiary!of!that!because!it!made!me!write!a!lot!more!than!I!would!have.!!And!
because!he!had!no!style!like!Basie,!or!Stan,!or!Woody,!I!could!write!anything!I!
wanted!and!did.!
[La!Barbera!also!included!this!response!to!the!infamous!Buddy!Rich!scream!tape]!
BUDDY RICH REMEMBERED By John La Barbera
At the risk of further popularizing a certain piece of underground trash, I would like to
address the notorious Buddy Rich "scream tape" that has become "gospel" in the history
of the "World's Greatest Drummer."
First of all let me say that having worked with just about every version of Buddy's band
(as a trumpet player, arranger, confidant, or producer) including the one on the tape, these
kids got off easy, to say the least.
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Yes indeed that's Buddy spewing putdowns and obscenities at a few of his band members
and yes, on its own, the tape paints the fearless leader as a foul-mouth bully. And yes, in
today's politically correct world, Buddy certainly wouldn't win any "manager of the
month" awards, but keep in mind that we're talking about the music business, specifically
the big band jazz world and Deming's management techniques don't wash in this world.
Every band Buddy ever had was subject to his brand of leadership and, just like the real
world, one either learned from these experiences and got stronger or washed out.
I joined Buddy Rich's band as a trumpet player in January of 1968 and still look back at
that period as one of the highlights of my career. For a trumpet player freshly groomed at
Berklee School of Music, Buddy's band represented the pinnacle of success and it was the
beginning of a musical education that I could never have acquired within the confines of
academia. Some lessons sink in right away and others take some time. Here's a sample of
one of my more memorable lessons.
After a month at the Sands in Las Vegas and a whirlwind schedule of record dates in
L.A., gigs with Sergio Mendes, and others, we embarked on a European tour with Tony
Bennett. That in itself could be a mini-series but I'll concentrate on Buddy.
Because Buddy's previous tour with just the band (1967) wasn't well received (according
to the bookers), it was decided by the agents that Buddy's new band could be best
introduced to the British audiences by coupling him with a known quantity, Tony. The
band opened the shows for the first set and Bennett would do the closer. It was a
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phenomenal combination and Buddy's reputation (as a bandleader) blossomed. Every
night being sold out added to the excitement of the crowd and the band.
The band had the highest respect for Tony (rare for a singer) and the quality of the
performance. When he sang Robert Farnon's Country Girl with just the accompaniment
of John Bunch's piano, the house was absolutely silent and we literally held our breath
during this segment of the show.
In the middle of our tour we hit Birmingham (then quite the working class town) and
Buddy pulled out all the stops to win over this tough audience. I can't remember all the
charts he called but I know he ended with the West Side Story medley and it was a smash
with the crowd.
As an encore he called Love For Sale and if you aren't familiar with the chart, suffice it to
say that there is a drum break before a modulation that has become somewhat of a
signature for Buddy. His lightning speed roll in this break has been copied (or should I
say attempted) by just about every big band drummer I know.
That night he blew the break. Totally blew it and stopped the band. We were in shock.
Having never experienced this before, we just looked around at each other. The audience
was dead silent. Buddy yelled to Pat (my brother acted as musical director at times
because Buddy couldn't read music) "pick it up before the break."
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Pat yelled out the appropriate rehearsal number and we were off again. As you can well
imagine, this time he nailed it and the audience went nuts. I wouldn't have wanted to be
Tony trying to follow that. But this isn't the end of the story.
Years later Buddy and I were hanging out in his Lincoln Plaza apartment one night after a
gig trying to find something edible in his refrigerator. Not as Spartan as Mel's (Torme)
but still few choices so we did the usual, ordered take out from Patsy's (Buddy &
Sinatra's favorite eatery since the late 40's).
While we waited for the delivery I reminded him of that night in Birmingham and
casually asked, "Buddy, did you blow that fill on purpose for the show business value or
did you really blow it?" What came next was probably the most intense "lecture" I've
ever received from him.
After he cooled off he told me never in his professional career did he ever give less than
100% and the idea of shortchanging the music for a cheap shot would be akin to artistic
murder. We talked about his early days and the necessity for professionalism in all
aspects of playing (and writing). I wish I had a tape recording of that talk.
The more I thought about this, the easier it was for me to understand many of his
"moods" and "tantrums" when players didn't give their all. I'm sure that was the case with
those on the receiving end on that tape.
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So if someone brings up the infamous Buddy Rich "scream tape" to you, be aware that
those particular band members got off easy. I learned a lot form Buddy, I just hope they
learned something.
JLB:!As!I!mentioned!earlier!about!collegiums,!I!believe!the!big!band,!like!the!concert!
band,!orchestra,!and!sundry!classic!ensembles!will!evolve!within!the!confines!of!
schools!and!other!organizations.!!They!must!if!they!are!to!survive.!
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Ralph!Lalama!
Personal!Interview!
April!23,!2014!
Ralph(Lalama(is(a(New(York(based(jazz(saxophonist(who(leads(his(own(jazz(trio.(
Lalama(is(also(known(for(his(work(in(several(big(bands,(including(the(Woody(Herman(
band,(Buddy(Rich(band,(and(the(Thad(Jones/Mel(Lewis(Orchestra,(which(subsequently(
became(the(Vanguard(Jazz(Orchestra,(an(ensemble(of(which(he(is(still(a(member.(
JS:!So!you!come!from!a!musical!family?!
RL:!Oh!yeah,!my!mother!was!a!singer.!My!father!was!a!drummer.!My!grandfather!
gave!me!my!first!clarinet!when!I!was!9.!He!played!clarinet!and!alto.!He!was!a!state!
auditor!too.!My!brother’s!a!piano!player,!and!my!wife’s!a!singer!too.!She!sings!in!a!
couple!of!big!bands!too.!She!goes!once!a!month!up!to!Hartford!to!sing!with!the!
Hartford!Jazz!Orchestra.!The!leader!of!that!is!Donn!Trenner,!who!used!to!be!the!cat!
with!Steve!Allen,!and!he!loves!her!–!you!can!see!a!couple!of!pictures!of!her!around!
here.!This!is!my!ego!room!–!big!bands,!small!groups,!festival!tags,!all!kinds!of!shit.!So!
anyway,!I’m!on!an!ego!trip.!Not!really.![laughs]!You!should!see!Lovano’s!room!if!you!
think!this!is!something.![laughs]!
JS:!Tell!me!about!your!history!with!the!ensemble.!
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RL:!I!think!at!first!I!played!with!my!high!school!jazz!band.!That’s!such!an!early!
memory!that!I!don’t!remember!too!much!about!it.!Then!I!went!to!college,!and!I!was!a!
clarinet!major.!At!Youngstown!State!University!they!didn’t!have!saxophone!majors,!
or!even!a!big!band,!but!there!was!this!guy!who!was!going!to!school!there,!older!than!
myself,!who!was!an!ex!bass!player!with!the!Woody!Herman!Band.!His!name!was!
Tony!Leonardi,!and!he!started!a!big!band!because!he!had!charts.!The!first!year!I!
didn’t!know!about!it,!but!the!second!year!someone!encouraged!me!to!audition!for!it!
and!I!did,!and!I!got!into!the!band.!Tony!was!a!very!heavy!influence!on!me,!because!
one!of!his!friends!was!Sal!Nistico,!who!was!a!great!tenor!player!for!the!Woody!
Herman!band.!He!brought!Sal!in!a!couple!of!times,!and!I!got!to!meet!him!and!hear!
him!play.!I!sat!right!next!to!him,!and!I!said,!“whoa.”!One!thing!about!Tony!is!that!the!
repertoire!we!were!playing!was!great,!it!wasn’t!like!–!I!don’t!want!to!say!that!new!
stuff!–!but!it!was!heavy!hitting!great!Woody!stuff,!Buddy!Rich!band,!Mel,!Stan!
Kenton,!Don!Ellis,!Basie.!So!it!wasn’t!just!the!new!guys!writing!a!funk!chart.!It!was!
deep.!So!at!the!end!of!my!tenure!at!Youngstown!State!getting!my!bachelors!degree!in!
Education!as!a!clarinet!major,!he!invited!Thad!Jones,!and!Thad!spent!3!days!with!us.!
I!got!to!play!with!Thad!when!he!did!clinics!–!which!was!a!total!education!–!and!in!the!
small!group,!and!I!was!featured!a!little!bit!in!the!big!band!even!though!Thad!was!out!
front.!We!were!playing!his!charts,!and!he!was!the!guest!soloist,!but!I!would!play!
some!too.!What!an!experience,!right?!So!I!asked!Thad,!“What!school!do!think!I!
should!go!to?”!He!said,!“If!you!want!to!play,!you!want!to!further!your!playing,!you!
should!move!to!New!York.”!So!that!was!June!1975.!By!September!7,!I!had!an!
apartment!in!Queens.!I!called!Thad,!and!I!didn’t!play!in!the!big!band,!but!I!did!a!gig!
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with!him!in!William!Patterson,!him!and!Mel.!They!were!teaching!at!William!
Patterson!at!that!time.!So!I!played!a!3inight!engagement!with!Thad!and!Mel!playing!
quintet,!I!had!a!big!afro!–!it!was!1975.!I!did!sub!once!or!twice!on!a!big!band,!because!
it!was!Gregory!Herbert!and!Frank!Foster.!So!I!subbed,!and!it!was!unbelievable,!and!
I’m!playing!little!weddings!here!in!New!York,!and!then!I!got!a!call!from!Woody!
Herman’s!crew,!and!I!got!in!that!band.!That!only!lasted!about!6i7!months,!because!I!
was!married!at!the!time!–!I!got!married!right!after!college.!I!did!my!stint!with!them!
and!came!back,!so!I!got!that!experience!of!playing!with!Woody.!That’s!where!I!met!
Lovano!and!Danny!D’Imperio,!both!of!whom!I!ended!up!playing!many!records!with!
later,!and!we’ve!been!brothers!for!years.!Allen!Vizzutti!was!playing!lead!trumpet,!
Frank!Tiberi!of!course.!So!I!came!back!to!New!York!and!I’m!on!the!scene!again,!and!
then!I!go!with!Buddy!Rich!–!this!is!1980i81.!I!remember!Andy!Fusco!was!the!lead!
alto,!Steve!Marcus,!Buddy,!and!all!the!crew!there.!Simo!Salminen!played!lead!
trumpet.!Beltran!played!bass!trombone.!So!I!did!about!a!year!and!a!half!with!them,!
and!then!around!1982i83!I!was!subbing!a!lot!with!Mel!–!now!Thad’s!off!the!scene,!
and!it’s!just!Mel.!I!was!either!taking!Lovano’s!place,!or!Gary!Prebeck.!I!would!sub!
both!chairs,!so!I!played!a!lot!of!nights!at!the!Vanguard!and!a!lot!of!nights!on!the!road.!
So!I’m!doing!that,!but!it’s!not!my!gig,!I’m!just!a!sub.!Then!Buddy!calls!again,!and!I!
was!going!to!go!out!for!about!3!months,!but!that!turned!into!5!weeks!because!Buddy!
had!a!quadruple!bypass.!But!before!I!went!out!with!Buddy,!Mel!calls!and!says,!
“Prebeck!is!going!to!quit!and!I!want!you!to!join.”!I!said,!“Mel,!I!just!told!Buddy!I’d!go!
out!with!him,!but!I’ll!be!done!in!March”!and!he!said,!“Okay,!I’ll!save!it!for!you.”!So!
everybody!knew!that!Buddy!had!a!heart!attack,!so!I!called!Mel!and!told!him!I!was!
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back!and!he!said,!“Come!on.!Let’s!go.”!But!then!ironically!my!first!gig!as!a!permanent!
member!was!at!Fat!Tuesdays,!it!wasn’t!even!at!the!Vanguard.!For!some!reason,!the!
band!had!5!nights!at!Fat!Tuesdays.!The!rest!of!that!is!history!–!I’m!still!there,!Mel!
was!gone,!Thad!was!gone,!and!it!became!the!Vanguard!Jazz!Orchestra.!I!also!played!
with!the!Westchester!Jazz!Orchestra,!which!is!now!defunct,!but!I!did!about!10!years!
with!them,!with!Mike!Holober!being!the!leader.!Then!I!did!the!Carnegie!Hall!band!
with!Faddis,!about!8!years!in!that!band.!It!is!a!great!experience,!even!now,!because!
as!a!saxophone!player,!you!learn!the!craft!of!playing!in!a!big!band,!but!also!you!have!
to!learn!how!to!play!with!people,!not!only!just!getting!along!with!them!personally,!
but!getting!along!with!them!musically!–!blending,!rhythm,!intonation.!So!it’s!a!great!
craft!to!learn!for!anybody,!and!I!think!that’s!a!little!bit!missing!these!days.!You’ll!play!
with!guys!and!they!play!great,!they!have!great!technique,!and!they’ll!play!fast!and!all!
that!stuff,!and!you!try!to!hold!a!note!with!them,!and!it!doesn’t!work.!It’s!that!
experience!of!playing,!blending,!and!getting!along!that!you!learn!in!a!big!band.!So!I!
spent!about!8!years!with!Jon![Faddis]!and!the!Carnegie!Hall!band,!and!I!played!a!
little!bit!with!Louie!Bellson’s!band,!and!there’s!probably!some!guys!I’m!forgetting.!So!
does!that!answer!your!question,!Jason?![laughs]!
JS:!Yes.![laughs]!So!you!mention!the!experience!playing!with!other!people.!Do!you!
think!the!big!band!is!a!good!tool!for!preparing!someone!for!even!small!group!
playing,!learning!styles?!
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RL:!Oh,!sure.!It’s!a!craft.!I’m!just!a!believer!in!general!that!you!have!to!learn!the!craft!
before!you!can!get!into!the!art.!Craft!I!think!comes!first.!The!big!band!is!a!craft!in!
itself,!but!also!the!tributaries!of!that!is!learning!how!to!play!your!instrument!better,!
playing!in!time,!having!to!play!in!the!section,!and!preparing!very!difficult!music.!
When!you’re!soloing,!you!might!play!easier!things!for!you!to!play,!but!sometimes!in!
the!part!–!for!saxophones!especially,!there!are!a!lot!solis,!you!have!to!double,!in!my!
case!flute!and!clarinet.!But!to!answer!your!question,!yes,!it’s!a!great!experience!for!
anybody,!even!if!you!never!want!to!play!in!a!big!band!again.!A!lot!of!people!will!say,!
“I!don’t!need!big!band,!I’m!a!soloist.”!That’s!true!–!I’ve!been!lucky!in!the!Vanguard!
band,!when!you!start!blowing,!it!turns!into!a!quartet.!Again,!the!discipline!of!just!
having!to!play!32!bars,!16!bars,!that’s!a!discipline!too.!To!say!something!in!those!
bars,!you!can’t!play!your!entire!repertoire.!You!have!to!create!music!that!means!
something!in!16!bars.!There’s!no!down!side,!other!than!hanging!out!with!Lovano.!
[laughs]!
JS:!I’ll!be!sure!to!quote!you!on!that!one.![laughs]!
RL:!You!can!put!that!at!the!top!of!your!dissertation.![laughs]!
JS:!What!do!you!think!about!how!the!style!has!evolved?!I!feel!like!there!was!a!major!
style!change!around!the!late!50s,!early!60s.!Do!you!think!that’s!the!case?!
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RL:!Well!in!the!60s,!you!had!Maynard’s!band!playing!“Birdland,”!Woody!was!still!
going,!and!Thad!and!Mel!started!up.!It!changed,!but!it!was!either!like!the!Glenn!
Miller!society!kind!of!stuff,!or!it!was!like!bebop.!And!then!Stan!Kenton!had!a!more!
brassy!kind!of!sound.!Now!it’s!more!modal,!there’s!the!rock!influence,!and!of!course!
the!Latin!influence!has!always!been!there!I!guess!–!Dizzy!did!that!too,!and!that!was!
even!before!the!60s.!I!can’t!pinpoint!it!like!that!–!I!can’t!say!that!there!was!a!drastic!
change!in!the!60s.!There!was!new!blood!–!like!I!said,!Maynard’s!thing,!Stan!Kenton,!
and!even!lesser!known!bands,!like!Gil!Evans!was!getting!almost!impressionistic!in!a!
way.!So!there!are!always!different!personalities!within!the!style!changes!too.!And!
Woody!kept!on!with!the!bebop!thing!–!in!the!70s,!we!were!still!playing!“Four!
Brothers.”!Thad!–!that’s!another!story.!To!me,!he!was!like!the!Beethoven!of!big!band!
–!not!that!his!style!was!like!Beethoven,!but!he!had!a!big!sound,!and!it!was!swinging.!
Like!I!learned!in!music!history!class,!Beethoven!had!the!demonic!sound!–!it!was!just!
big!and!in!your!face,!and!that’s!the!way!Thad!was.!And!that!was!Basie,!too.!It!was!a!
little!more!forward!thinking!in!the!voicings,!in!the!chords,!but!it!was!still!Basie!type!
swing.!And!Thad!was!thicker,!but!coming!from!Basie!rather!than!Duke!Ellington!I!
thought.!But!then!he!had!some!of!that!harmony!in!there!too,!so!I!can’t!really!answer!
specifically.!But!music!was!changing,!jazz!was!changing.!You!had!Coltrane!in!the!60s!
getting!more!modal,!so!that!had!an!effect.!And!Basie,!with!Frank!Foster!and!Frank!
West,!that!was!a!killing!band.!As!far!as!education,!too,!it!seems!like!that’s!the!
experience!people!are!getting,!unlike!myself!–!I!experienced!it!at!school,!but!I!went!
on!the!road.!For!me,!Woody!Herman!was!like!high!school,!Buddy!Rich!was!like!
college,!and!Thad!and!Mel!and!Carnegie!was!like!a!living.!I!don’t!mean!that!Woody’s!
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band!was!less!challenging,!but!that’s!the!way!it!went!for!me.!It’s!funny,!one!time!Mel!
Lewis!was!on!Buddy!Rich’s!band!because!Buddy!had!a!disc!problem,!and!Buddy!
hired!Mel.!Mel!didn’t!play!a!beat,!but!he!was!on!the!bus!for!a!week!with!us!just!in!
case!Buddy!couldn’t!play!–!it!was!amazing!because!he!couldn’t!even!get!dressed,!he!
was!hurting,!but!he!would!play.!Mel!said!the!same!thing:!“Woody!was!like!high!
school,!Buddy’s!like!college,!and!my!band!was!like!real!life.”!As!far!as!education,!I’ve!
been!teaching!a!long!time,!and!these!young!guys!come!to!sub,!and!they!can!play,!
they!can!read,!but!there!is!that!experience!missing.!And!they!have!to!get!that!
experience,!and!I’m!not!putting!them!down!by!any!means,!but!it’s!just!a!little!sad!
that!you!can’t!go!on!a!band!and!live!on!a!bus!for!8!months,!3!years,!10!years,!or!
whatever!and!then!move!on.!That’s!not!really!happening!that!much.!I!think!Basie!
still!has!a!ghost!band,!probably!Duke!does,!and!Maria!Schneider,!but!they!don’t!work!
as!much!–!we!at!least!have!a!Monday!night!gig.!I!think!that’s!an!important!point,!and!
I!hear!the!difference.!Maybe!some!older!guys!will!sub!too,!and!they!played!in!all!
these!bands,!and!it’s!not!that!they!can!read!better,!it’s!just!how!they!interpret!and!
how!they!blend.!I’ll!tell!you!one!thing,!though,!there!are!bands!throughout!the!
country!that!have!a!Monday!night!gig.!I!don’t!think!they!make!any!money,!but!
they’re!all!over!the!world,!actually.!I!remember!I!was!in!Germany!and!I!had!a!feature!
there!with!Unterfahrt!in!Munich,!and!they!have!a!Monday!night!gig.!So!it’s!still!
happening,!but!it’s!not!what!I’m!talking!about!–!getting!on!the!bus!with!the!same!
guys.!You!learn!a!lot!by!doing!it,!socially,!personally,!musically,!business.!
JS:!What!do!you!see!or!what!would!you!like!to!see!in!the!future!of!the!ensemble?!
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RL:!I!would!like!to!see!a!lot!of!these!writers!be!influenced!a!little!more!by!Thad,!
rather!than…!I!don’t!want!to!say!that!guys!who!are!influenced!by!Brookmeyer,!or!Gil,!
that!it’s!a!bad!thing,!because!it!isn’t.!You!have!to!have!different!sounds.!I!play!a!lot!of!
new!music,!and!it’s!mainly!influenced!by!Europe,!classical!music,!or!Gil!and!
Brookmeyer.!It’s!not!a!bad!thing,!but!it’s!like!they!don’t!want!to!get!into!the!meat!of!
it!sometimes.!I!remember!hearing!an!interview!with!Igor!Stravinsky,!and!the!guy!
was!like,!“Igor,!you’re!one!of!the!most!prolific!composers!of!modern!classical!music.!
Where!do!you!get!your!ideas?”!and!he!said,!“Well,!I!was!influenced!by!Beethoven,!
Wagner,!Bartok,!and!Mahler,!and!I!just!know!how!to!disguise!it.”!That!was!his!
answer.!My!point!is!that!the!new!guys!are!influenced!by!something,!and!that’s!a!
great!thing,!but!I!don’t!understand!why!more!people!don’t!follow!Thad.!I’m!not!sure!
if!they!don’t!like!it,!or!they!think!it’s!old,!or!what.!But!it’s!swinging!–!that’s!another!
thing!that’s!missing!from!a!lot!of!newer!stuff.!That’s!just!my!opinion,!of!course.!I’m!
digging!some!of!the!harmony!–!it’s!getting!more!modern,!and!there!are!more!layers!
in!the!sound!–!but!it’s!more!about!orchestration!rather!than!swing.!And!that’s!not!a!
bad!thing!either.!I’d!just!like!more!of!a!balance,!because!that’s!where!I’m!coming!
from.!I’m!coming!from!Pittsburgh!and!organ!trios!and!the!blues.!I!like!harmony!
that’s!challenging!and!freedom!–!I’m!into!that!too,!believe!me!–!but!still,!the!
undercurrent!isn’t!swinging.!I!think!that’s!what!jazz!is!–!it’s!about!swing.!That’s!the!
difference.!If!it’s!not!swinging,!then!you’re!putting!another!word!in!front!of!it,!like!
rock!jazz,!latin!jazz,!and!there’s!nothing!wrong!with!any!of!that,!but!the!word!jazz!
means!something!too.!That’s!just!my!opinion.!
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Now!where!it’s!going…!I!don’t!know.!My!only!thing!is!if!there!isn’t!some!stronger!
influence!from!the!past,!it’s!not!going!to!be!that!good.!If!you!listen!to!any!great!jazz!
arranging,!they’re!influenced!by!the!past.!It!gives!the!music!a!core!that!you!can!add!
to.!A!tree!has!a!trunk;!a!house!has!a!foundation.!You!don’t!hang!your!house!on!a!tree!
limb,!you!dig!into!the!ground!and!build!it!up.!It’s!the!same!in!music.!So!if!the!future!is!
just!going!to!have!the!top!layer,!it’s!going!to!be!a!little!weak!as!far!as!I’m!concerned.!
But!if!it!has!a!foundation!with!extensions,!you!can!go!wherever!you!want!to!go!with!
it.!
JS:!It’s!interesting!to!me!that!you!compared!Thad!to!Beethoven.!When!you!talk!to!
people,!everyone!loves!Thad,!so!it!makes!you!wonder!why!more!people!aren’t!
directly!influenced!by!him.!It!may!be!similar!to!the!anxiety!of!influence!that!followed!
Beethoven,!where!composers!avoided!sounding!like!him!at!all,!and!even!avoided!
working!in!some!of!the!genres!he!was!most!famous!for!–!especially!the!symphony.!It!
seems!like!there!might!be!a!similar!thing!going!on!with!Thad!–!no!one!is!going!to!do!
it!better,!so!everyone!goes!in!the!other!direction.!
RL:!Well,!that’s!the!thing.!You!can!be!influenced!by!someone,!but!you!don’t!have!to!
do!better.!For!instance,!McNeely!has!a!little!Thad!in!him,!and!he!has!a!little!
Brookmeyer!in!him,!he!has!Gil!in!him,!but!he’s!McNeely.!That’s!what!I’m!talking!
about.!He’s!a!generation!later,!so!his!feeling!with!the!beat!is!different.!He’s!not!
writing!Basieiish,!he’s!writing!McNeelyiish,!but!he!still!has!the!foundation!there.!
And!there!are!other!guys,!too.!My!brother,!Dave!Lalama,!is!good.!And!I’m!not!putting!
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down!other!people.!I’m!just!talking!about!the!future,!and!the!future!comes!from!the!
present!and!the!past.!That’s!why!we!study!music!history.!That’s!why!lawyers!study!
past!cases.!
JS:!Is!there!anything!you!would!like!to!add?!
RL:!Actually,!I’d!like!to!say!something!about!soloing.!What!I’d!like!to!hear!more!of,!
especially!in!big!bands,!is!that!a!soloist!should!be!influenced!by!the!chart!they’re!
playing.!Not!to!say!that!if!you’re!playing!Basie!you!have!to!play!the!oldest!licks!in!the!
world,!but!just!be!influenced!by!the!beat.!Play!off!the!background,!and!if!you!have!a!
lot!of!open!space,!you!can!go!wherever!you!want!to!go.!Sometimes!the!soloist!can!
keep!the!arrangement!rising,!and!then!when!the!climax!comes,!it!makes!perfect!
musical!sense.!I!hear!some!guys!just!want!to!get!into!what!they!have!to!say,!which!is!
part!of!it,!but!it’s!a!craft.!You!have!to!think!of!the!craft,!and!it’ll!lead!you!to!the!art.!
That’s!general,!but!I!think!people!should!think!more!about!studying!the!music!you’re!
playing,!not!just!the!chord!changes,!but!what’s!happening.!Some!people!say,!“Oh,!I!
hate!backgrounds,”!and!I!say,!“Okay,!well!I’ll!take!the!solo.”![laughs]!Sometimes!they!
get!in!your!way,!but!they!shouldn’t!though,!unless!they’re!overwritten.!That’s!
another!thing.!Some!of!these!guys!do!overwrite!things.!I’ll!give!you!a!couple!of!
examples.!Say!the!arranger’s!a!piano!player,!and!he’s!writing!a!sax!soli,!and!there’s!
nowhere!to!take!a!breath.!Piano!players!don’t!have!to!take!a!breath,!but!saxophone!
players!do.!So!it’s!physically!impossible!to!play!this!line!and!get!the!intensity!you!
want!to!get!as!a!section,!unless!everyone!learns!how!to!circular!breathe.!That’s!one!
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thing!about!Woody.!The!arranger!would!bring!in!a!tune,!and!he!would!say,!“Okay,!
that’s!good,!but!throw!out!letter!B,!move!this!background!there,!and!in!that!section!
don’t!play!until!letter!D.”!He!would!do!that!all!the!time.!Faddis!would!do!that!too.!
That’s!one!thing!about!the!great!arrangers,!too.!They!write!for!the!band,!for!the!
personnel.!When!I!get!a!part!from!McNeely,!it!has!my!name!on!it.!Thad!did!that!too,!
and!Duke!Ellington!did!the!same!thing.!He!wrote!for!the!guys!in!his!band.!Thad!was!
amazing!–!he’d!put!everyone!in!the!range!that!was!the!strong!part!of!the!horn.!It’s!
amazing!how!he!did!it.!Guys!have!no!clue!what!that’s!about.!That’s!what!I!mean!–!
forget!about!the!voicings!and!the!rhythm,!they!don’t!get!that!either!about!Thad.!You!
get!a!piano!player!writing!open!Gs!on!the!clarinet!for!30!years!–!not!that!you!can’t!
play!an!open!G,!and!there!are!ways!of!making!it!happen,!but!the!point!is!there!are!all!
kinds!of!subtleties.!It’s!deep.!
JS:!Absolutely.!One!of!the!things!I’ve!been!trying!to!convince!composition!teachers!to!
do!is!rather!than!having!them!read!orchestration!books,!have!them!do!like!the!
education!majors!and!learn!how!to!play!all!the!instruments.!That’s!how!you!learn!
how!to!write!for!them.!
RL:!Yeah,!and!I!don’t!mean!to!sound!like!I’m!down!on!all!the!kids!now.!I’m!trying!to!
educate!them!too.!Even!directors,!sometimes!the!music!they!pick!for!the!bands!isn’t!
that!great.!There’s!much!hipper!music!out!there!–!no!wonder!some!of!the!kids!hate!
jazz.!And!it!doesn’t!have!to!be!hard,!it!just!needs!to!be!something!that!sounds!good!
and!they!have!fun!with.!Even!if!you’re!not!interested,!it!might!ring!a!bell.!We!need!
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fans!too.!It!might!be!something!that!makes!the!kids!feel!better!than!some!rock!stars.!
I!don’t!know!their!names,!but!you!know!what!I!mean.!
JS:!I!think!the!good!thing!is!that!the!stuff!that!lasts!is!usually!good.!
RL:!Oh!yeah,!there’s!no!doubt!about!it.!People!are!still!talking!about!the!Beatles.!
People!are!still!talking!about!Mozart,!John!Coltrane,!Charlie!Parker,!Duke!Ellington,!
Thad!Jones.!We’re!still!talking!about!them.!We’re!not!talking!about!Grand!Funk!
Railroad,!Uriah!Heap,!you!know!what!I!mean?!I!haven’t!heard!about!Uriah!Heap!
since!I!was!your!age,!but!I’ve!heard!about!Beethoven!many!times.!I!remember!one!
time!I!was!in!Italy!walking!down!the!streets.!It!was!a!great!place,!a!lot!of!hills,!old!
Italy,!and!St.!Francis!–!it!was!an!old!church!oriented!city.!And!I’m!hearing!something,!
and!I!went!in!the!church.!You!went!down,!and!it!was!almost!like!the!catacombs,!and!
it!was!a!chamber!group!playing!the!Mozart!clarinet!concerto.!I!sat!down,!and!it!
sounded!great!because!the!walls!were!like!stone.!I!heard!most!of!it,!and!it!was!great.!
It!was!done,!and!I!left!and!got!dinner.!Here!you!hear!a!boombox.!I!was!walking!
through!Italy!and!I!was!hearing!Mozart!being!performed!live.!I!rest!my!case,!Jason.!
[laughs]!
JS:!Fair!enough.![laughs]!
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Stephen!Norfleet!
Email!Interview!
August!5,!2015!
Stephen(Norfleet(is(a(saxophonist(based(in(Richmond,(VA.(Norfleet(is(the(founder(and(
leader(of(the(Devil’s(Workshop(Big(Band,(an(ensemble(known(for(its(use(of(nonE
traditional(styles,(including(hip(hop,(funk,(and(free(jazz.(The(band(is(also(notable(for(its(
group(compositions(that(evolve(over(time,(and(is(the(only(current(big(band(creating(
music(in(this(way.(
JS:!Why!did!you!decide!to!start!a!big!band?!
SN:!First!off,!I!have!played!in!big!bands!my!whole!musical!life!and!loved!every!
minute!of!it.!So!when!I!was!in!my!earlyitoimid!twenties,!I!wanted!to!start!my!career!
as!a!performer.!I!wanted!to!create!my!own!business,!so!to!speak.!Something!that!
would!provide!income!as!well!as!musical!freedom.!I!had!obviously!been!playing!
sideman!gigs!and!things!like!that,!but!I!felt!that!the!time!had!come!to!lead!my!own!
band.!I!also!believe!that!music!can!be!used!as!a!force!of!good.!It!uplifts!people!all!the!
time.!That!notion!was!also!very!much!a!part!of!my!philosophy!and!I!wanted!to!do!
that.!Uplift!people.!Audience!and!band!members!alike.!All!of!that!said,!the!thing!that!
made!the!most!sense!to!me!at!that!time!was!to!start!a!17ipiece!improvisational!big!
band!that!was!more!like!a!jam!band!or!a!rock!band!than!a!swing!band.!It!allowed!me!
to!mashiup!my!love!for!playing!in!a!big!band!setting!with!my!desire!to!be!a!rock!star!
and!GTFD.!
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JS:!Devil’s!Workshop!Big!Band!was!known!for!utilizing!more!free!improvisation!and!
collective!composition!than!is!usually!heard!in!a!big!band!setting.!Was!this!the!idea!
from!the!start?!!
SN:!This!was(the!idea!from!the!start.!Initially,!the!band!played!Thad!Jones,!Charles!
Mingus,!and!Duke!Ellington!arrangements!because!that’s!all!that!I!had.!My!concept!
has!always!been!to!stretch!out!on!the!vamps!that!often!occur!at!the!beginnings!and!
endings!of!songs.!I!like!to!see!where!things!go.!I!simply!applied!this!idea!to!the!
charts!we!were!playing.!If!you!stretch!out!a!vamp!for!a!long!period!of!time,!it!begins!
to!become!it’s!own!song.!Once!that!starts!happening,!it’s!the!musicians!
responsibility!to!take!it!somewhere.!For!us,!that!means!improvising!as!a!collective.!
Also,!we!are!paying!homage!to!the!territory!big!bands!from!the!1930’s!and!40’s.!The!
Basie!band!used!to!make!stuff!up!all!the!time.!Ask!any!musician!out!there!and!I’ll!bet!
every!one!of!them!has!had!to!create!their!own!parts!at!least!once!on!a!gig.!It’s!the!
same!skill!set,!just!applied!differently.!
JS:!And!how!do!you!think!this!contributed!to!the!unique!sound!of!the!band?!
SN:!The!thing!that’s!unique!about!us!is!originally!we!didn’t!have!any!of!our!music!
arranged.!We!weren’t!reading!charts!or!anything.!We!were!performing!from!
memory!the!songs!we!had!created!in!rehearsal!or!during!a!performance.!Like!I!said!
before,!I!wanted!this!to!be!as!much!a!jam!band!and!a!rock!band!as!a!big!band.!I!
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constantly!strive!for!that!balance,!and!when!the!band!is!aligned!and!everyone’s!on!
the!same!page,!things!take!on!a!life!of!their!own.!
band!charts?!!
SN:!Personally,!I!don’t!think!current!big!bands!have!a!responsibility!to!preserve!
classic!big!band!charts.!I!think!the!United!States!of!America!has!a!responsibility!to!
preserve!it’s!culture,!though.!Unfortunately,!that’s!not!near!the!top!of!the!priority!list!
these!days.!
JS:!How!would!you!balance!the!continued!performance!of!these!tunes!with!fostering!
new!approaches!to!the!genre!and!the!individual!creativity!of!the!players?!
SN:!Outside!of!the!cultural!institutions!already!performing!them,!I!would!have!to!say!
that!classic!big!band!charts!should!be!taught!in!elementary,!middle,!and!high!schools!
(I!know,!real!original,!right?).!There!are!content!prerequisites!for!other!courses!such!
as!English,!Science,!Math,!etc.,!so!why!not!for!music?!Outside!of!learning!major!
scales!and!things!like!this,!I!mean.!The!problem!is,!most!music!educators!don’t!have!
a!clue!as!to!how!to!perform!that!music,!so!how!are!they!supposed!to!pass!the!torch!
and!keep!things!moving!forward?!Regarding!new!approaches!and!individual!
creativity,!that!fire!will!burn!forever!as!long!as!there!are!people!listening!to!and!
playing!music.!
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JS:!The!Devil’s!Workshop!Big!Band!was!also!known!for!incorporating!musical!styles!
from!nonijazz!genres!(e.g.!pop!music,!rock,!hipihop,!etc.).!Do!you!think!
incorporating!newer!styles!is!essential!to!maintaining!the!vitality!of!the!ensemble?!
SN:!Most!likely.!It’s!the!only!way!to!continue!moving!forward.!!
JS:!Do!you!have!any!plans!to!start!another!big!band!in!the!future?!
SN:!Well,!for!me,!DWBB!never!broke!up.!Everyone!just!sort!of!walked!away!at!one!
point!and!began!following!different!paths.!I!ended!up!moving!to!New!York!and!then!
to!San!Francisco!to!pursue!performance!opportunities!before!landing!back!home!in!
Richmond,!Va.!this!past!December.!It’s!been!over!10!years,!but!we!have!a!show!
coming!up!here!in!Richmond!on!August!30th.!I’m!looking!forward!to!seeing!what!the!
future!holds.!
SN:!I!won’t!speculate!on!the!future!of!big!bands,!but!speaking!for!myself!I’d!like!to!
see!DWBB!back!to!where!I!think!it!should!be,!which!is!to!say!performing!regularly,!
releasing!albums,!and!touring!on!a!high!level.!Economics!make!that!an!uphill!battle,!
but!for!me!this!band!has!always!been!a!labor!of!love!so!why!not,!right?!
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Bruce!Paulson!
Telephone!Interview!
September!28,!2015!
Bruce(Paulson(is(a(trombonist(and(retired(Professor(of(Jazz(Studies(from(the(University(
of(Nevada(Las(Vegas.(Paulson(was(the(lead(trombonist(for(several(big(bands,(including(
those(of(Buddy(Rich(and(Toshiko(Akiyoshi.(He(was(also(the(lead(trombonist(on(Doc(
Severinsen’s(Tonight(Show(Band(for(several(decades.(
JS:!Tell!me!about!how!you!got!into!playing!in!big!bands!and!how!that!evolved,!
because!I!know!your!degrees!are!in!anthropology,!is!that!right?!
BP:!I!started!playing!when!I!was!11,!and!my!high!school!band!director!got!me!
involved!in!a!little!dance!band,!so!I!did!that!all!through!school.!I!went!to!the!
University!of!Minnesota!and!didn’t!major!in!music,!and!there!was!no!jazz!program!
there,!but!I!always!played!in!bands!around!Minneapolis!and!St.!Paul,!and!there!was!a!
really!good!big!band!that!played!a!couple!of!nights!a!week!during!the!summers!at!a!
resort!called!The!Downbeat!Club!on!Lake!Minnetonka.!I!got!some!experience!playing!
in!those!kinds!of!bands!plus!a!number!of!other!bands!around!town,!so!I!was!familiar!
with!how!to!do!that.!After!I!graduated!I!went!through!a!year!of!graduate!school!in!
music,!and!then!the!draft!took!me!out!of!graduate!school,!and!right!before!I!was!to!
go!into!the!Army!to!Vietnam!I!got!a!job!teaching!high!school!band!for!a!couple!of!
years.!Then!the!lottery!took!over,!and!at!that!point!I!got!a!high!lottery!number,!so!
left!teaching!and!the!first!job!I!was!on!was!with!the!Chris!Fiorito!Italian!Show!Band,!
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which!played!in!Mafia!clubs!in!New!York!and!Boston.!I!did!that!for!a!number!of!
months!in!strictly!Mafia!clubs,!and!finally!a!friend!and!I!decided!that!it!was!getting!a!
little!too!close!to!the!bone!and!we!gave!it!up.!I!went!back!to!Minnesota,!and!at!that!
point!ran!into!a!friend!who!had!been!on!the!Glenn!Miller!band!with!Buddy!DiFranco!
as!the!leader,!and!he!just!asked!me!casually,!“Would!you!ever!want!to!go!out!on!the!
road?”!And!I!said,!“Yeah,!that’s!definitely!what!I’m!trying!to!do,”!and!a!couple!
months!later!I!got!a!call!from!the!manager!of!the!Glenn!Miller!band,!and!this!was!the!
Miller!band!that!the!Glenn!Miller!estate!still!owns!to!this!day!–!in!fact!they’re!coming!
back!to!New!Zealand!in!a!little!while.!And!Buddy!called!me!on!a!Monday!or!Tuesday!
and!said,!“Can!you!be!in!Reading,!Pennsylvania!on!Thursday!and!play!lead!trombone!
on!the!Miller!band?”!And!I!said,!“Yes,!I’ll!do!that.”!And!I!got!my!life!in!order!in!two!
days!and!went!out!there!and!joined!the!Miller!band.!I!stayed!with!them!for!6!
months,!and!it!wasn’t!a!real!jazz!band,!although!Buddy!DiFranco!was!one!of!the!
great!jazz!players.!So!I!did!that!for!6!months,!and!there!are!lots!of!stories!about!that!
experience,!but!at!that!point!the!first!trombone!position!opened!up!on!the!Buddy!
Rich!band,!and!that!had!been!my!goal!for!years,!to!play!on!that!band.!I!called!them,!
and!Pat!LaBarbera!was!the!guy!who!did!the!hiring,!and!they!hired!me.!If!I!had!been!
the!third!trombone!on!the!Miller!band,!I!probably!wouldn’t!have!had!the!same!
credibility,!but!the!first!trombone…!once!you!get!on!one!band,!you!get!asked!to!play!
on!all!the!other!ones.!So!I!went!to!the!Buddy!Rich!band!and!did!that!for!a!year!and!a!
half,!and!at!that!point!Doc!Severinsen!called!me!and!said,!“The!Tonight!Show!is!
moving!to!California!and!I’m!forming!a!new!band!there.!Would!you!want!to!be!on!
the!band?”!And!I!said,!“Well,!let!me!think!about!that.”!I!enjoyed!the!Buddy!Rich!band,!
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but!everybody!told!me!that!this!is!a!great!opportunity.!So!at!that!point!I!left!the!Rich!
band!and!went!out!to!California!and!joined!Severinsen’s!band,!and!then!got!involved!
in!lots!of!big!bands!around!town,!doing!recordings!and!this!and!that.!I!played!with!
the!Bill!Holman!band!and!the!Bob!Florence!band,!and!I!also!then!got!called!to!join!
the!Maynard!Ferguson!band!and!the!Stan!Kenton!band.!But!by!that!time,!I!was!on!
the!Tonight!Show!band!and!turned!those!positions!down.!That’s!kind!of!a!brief!
synopsis!of!how!I!got!involved.!
JS:!When!jazz!musicians!have!been!learning!their!craft,!it’s!always!been!an!
apprenticeship!situation,!and!the!big!band!has!been!a!big!part!of!that.!A!lot!of!the!
young!guys!sit!in!and!learn!style!and!how!to!shape!a!solo.!Since!there!aren’t!that!
many!working!bands!anymore,!a!lot!of!that!has!gone!into!the!university!system.!Is!
that!sort!of!apprenticeship!still!possible!within!the!university!system,!since!you’ve!
got!all!students!in!the!band,!rather!than!some!experienced!guys!with!a!couple!of!
young!guys!here!and!there.!Also,!what!effects!to!you!think!the!university!has!had!on!
the!scene?!
BP:!I!think!it!definitely!has!changed!the!face!of!the!music.!Like!you!said,!we!were!all!
taught!by!listening!and!rubbing!shoulders!with!more!mature!players,!so!each!person!
evolved!their!own!style!–!in!the!past!I!think!players!were!much!more!individual!
because!there!was!no!pedagogy,!no!curriculum.!I!think!the!one!thing!that!has!
happened!with!the!university!bands!is!that!even!though!many!players!are!probably!
more!adroit!–!they’re!technically!better!and!have!more!musical!knowledge!–!they!
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tend!to!sound!the!same!in!certain!senses.!So!I!think!that!old!system!where!we!were!
all!self!taught!–!I!didn’t!have!any!jazz!education!per!se,!I!learned!it!all!sitting!in!bands!
with!other!guys!–!I!think!it!created!a!more!personal!approach,!and!I!think!one!of!the!
biggest!compliments!that!I!ever!got!was!that!a!guy!said!he!heard!a!recording!on!the!
radio!and!he!knew!it!was!me.!Somebody!could!identify!your!style.!So!I!think!that!
that!thing!is!kind!of!lost.!I!mean,!there!are!plenty!of!great!players,!and!lots!of!
personality,!but!overall!jazz!education!has!kind!of!violated!the!original!premise!of!
jazz,!which!is!that!people!don’t!tell!you!how!to!play,!you!find!out!yourself.!If!they!
don’t!like!the!way!you!play,!they!just!don’t!use!you.!So!I!think!it’s!changed!it!a!lot,!
and!there!aren’t!those!kinds!of!bands,!but!I!think!the!best!experience!that!a!player!
can!get…!that’s!probably!why!I!quit!teaching.!When!I!couldn’t!play!anymore,!I!
couldn’t!sit!in!the!band!with!the!guys!and!show!them!how!it!was!done,!you!know!I!
got!that!focal!dystonia!in!my!embouchure,!and!so!it!became!much!more!frustrating!
to!try!to!teach,!because!I!couldn’t!say,!“Listen,!it’s!supposed!to!kind!of!go!like!this.”!
And!guys!used!to!say!when!you!sat!in!the!band!how!different!it!felt!to!play!with!a!
real!mature!player!when!they!were!still!evolving.!So!I!think!that’s!a!big!change.!It!
keeps!the!whole!thing!going,!but!I!do!think!outside!of!a!few!players,!it!tends!to!
homogenize!the!style,!and!that!has!good!and!bad!aspects.![laughs]!But!yeah,!you!
don’t!just!start!by!playing!in!a!town!where!there’s!a!professional!band.!Used!to!be!
there!were!clubs!and!places!you!could!play!all!the!time,!and!now!you!practice!at!
home!and!you!maybe!get!one!night!a!month,!so!the!whole!jazz!world!has!
dramatically!changed.!I!can’t!say!whether!it’s!good!or!bad,!but!it’s!certainly!different.!
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JS:!There!seem!to!be!a!growing!number!of!local!big!bands!doing!the!Monday!night!
gigs!and!that!sort!of!thing,!and!I’ve!played!on!plenty!of!those!myself,!but!everyone!in!
the!band!is!a!mature!musician.!We!don’t!bring!the!high!school!kids!in!–!it’s!all!
professionals.!And!if!you’re!going!to!a!reading!gig!like!that!it’s!nice!that!everyone!can!
fit!together!a!little!easier,!but!at!the!same!time,!at!least!in!my!opinion,!that!should!be!
a!place!for!getting!young!players!in!and!sitting!them!in!the!band.!They’re!going!to!
make!mistakes,!but!it’s!a!good!way!for!them!to!learn.!
BP:!Yeah.!The!young!players!supply!a!lot!of!energy!too.!Buddy!Rich,!of!course,!was!
older!–!I!mean,!he!was!a!lot!younger!than!I!am!now!–!but!all!these!guys!generally!had!
younger!players!in!their!bands.!Art!Blakey!had!younger!guys,!Horace!Silver!had!
younger!guys,!and!they!supplied!a!lot!of!energy,!and!then!they!got!the!benefit!of!
working!with!a!more!mature!musician!in!addition.!So!that!was!the!way!it!worked!in!
those!days,!and!now!everybody’s!cut!from!the!same!stone!in!a!way.!So!it’s!different,!
but!I!would!say!that!the!players!are!probably!more!technically!and!harmonically!
advanced!than!they!probably!were!in!the!old!days!–!outside!of!the!big!guys.!I!mean,!
when!you!hear!Dizzy!Gillespie!play!in!his!youth,!or!Freddie!Hubbard!or!somebody,!
it’s!still!pretty!unbelievable.!So!that’s!my!sense!of!that.!
JS:!You!mention!a!lot!of!students!being!harmonically!advanced.!I!think!there’s!a!
general!feeling!among!some!that!big!band!music!is!becoming!very!harmonically!
complex,!but!maybe!has!lost!the!swing!aspect.!And!not!necessarily!just!the!swung!
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eighth!notes,!but!the!feel!of!it,!the!attitude,!and!that!the!music!is!heading!more!in!
that!direction.!Do!you!have!any!thoughts!on!this?!
BP:!With!a!lot!of!bands,!the!charts!get!more!and!more!advanced!harmonically,!and!
even!during!the!soloing,!instead!of!having!the!chord!changes!maybe!simplify!a!bit!
for!the!soloist!so!he!has!a!little!more!room!to!do!things!there,!they’re!all!over!the!
place!and!he!has!to!execute!everything!perfectly,!but!there’s!not!as!much!room!for!
that!soulful!thing.!I!think!there’s!less!of!that.!You!know,!when!you!go!back!to!the!
early!Basie!stuff!and!that!kind!of!thing,!it!just!seems!to!me!that!it!swings!harder.!
That’s!a!personal!opinion,!but!the!new!grooves!and!the!new!fusion!thing!tend!to!be!a!
little!more!restrictive!in!your!time!feel.!It’s!a!development,!it’s!an!evolution,!and!it’s!
great!in!some!ways,!but!it’s!not!as!melodic!maybe,!and!it’s!lost!a!lot!of!its!audience.!A!
lot!of!people!crave!that!simpler!and!more!songlike!style,!and!I!think!that!it’s!a!
natural!evolution.!Lots!of!great!players!did!that!too!–!you!know!how!Coltrane!and!
Bird!and!all!those!guys!got!much!more!advanced,!but!at!the!same!time!they!kind!of…!
the!audience!kind!of!disappeared.![laughs]!So!that’s!a!classic!jazz!evolution!story,!
but!I!do!think!there’s!a!lot!of!stuff!that!tends!to!be!technical!and!virtuosic!but!maybe!
doesn’t!give!room!to!the!soloists!and!even!to!the!players!in!the!ensemble!to!put!their!
own!little!sense!of!style!on!the!stuff.!!Maybe!there’s!too!much!writing!–!it’s!too!
restrictive.!And!certainly!in!the!soloing,!too!–!chord!changes!that!go!by!in!
syncopation!rather!than!a!simple!basis!for!the!solo.!
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JS:!I!was!in!a!band!once!that!was!reading!some!new!charts,!and!I!was!already!a!little!
irritated!because!the!charts!were!arranged!from!combo!tunes,!and!most!of!the!
trombone!parts!were!in!high!unison.!When!I!turned!the!page,!he!had!written!in!a!
bass!trombone!solo!in!f#!minor,!and!it!was!full!of!weird!chord!changes!and!repeats!
every!couple!of!bars,!and!I!survived,!but!it!wasn’t!the!best!experience.![laughs]!
BP:!Tom!Garvin!–!I!think!you’ve!played!some!of!his!charts!–!he!has!since!passed!
away,!but!he!wrote!beautiful!and!very!involved!harmonic!things,!but!often!when!it!
came!to!the!soloing!he!would!simplify!things.!He!would!cut!out!a!lot!of!the!
syncopation!in!the!comping,!and!it!allowed!the!soloist!more!room!to!express!
himself.!When!the!changes!are!coming!syncopated,!with!backgrounds!and!kicks!
coming!in!at!you!and!everything,!you’re!pretty!restricted!in!what!you!can!do,!so!I!
think!that’s!an!evolution!that!I!don’t!enjoy.![laughs]!
JS:!I!agree.!I!think!what!makes!the!big!band!work!well!is!that!there’s!a!combination!
of!written!out!parts!in!the!heads,!etc.,!that!gives!you!the!precision,!but!then!during!
the!solo!section!you’ve!got!the!individual!expression!if!you!give!the!soloist!room!to!
do!that.!It’s!really!cool!when!a!tune!does!both!well,!but!if!the!solo!sections!are!
overwritten!or!overly!complex,!it!can!really!affect!what!a!soloist!can!do.!
BP:!Well,!even!in!the!ensemble!–!I!know,!having!played!a!lot!of!arrangements!by!
some!that!were!very!complicated,!and!then!others!that!were…!Tommy!Newsome,!
and!a!guy!named!Jimmy!Jones,!they!wrote!very!simply,!and!it!allowed!the!lead!
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players!and!the!ensemble!to!put!their!mark!on!it!instead!of!everything!being!strictly!
annotated,!with!all!the!longs!and!shorts!and!everything!else.!It!was!a!looser!format,!
and!boy,!you!get!those!great!lead!trumpet!players!–!Snooky!Young!and!those!guys!–!
they!can!put!all!that!stuff!on!it!without!being!told!by!the!writer.!I!think!that!is!a!
wonderful!thing!to!encounter!in!an!ensemble,!where!you!get!a!chance!to!put!some!of!
your!own!interpretation!on!it!rather!than!everything!being!dictated!by!the!writing,!
which!tends!to!occur!a!lot!in!new!writers,!it!seems!to!me.!
JS:!I!think!that’s!something!that!may!have!come!over!from!classical!music,!because!
once!you!start!moving!into!the!late!19th!and!early!20th!century,!the!markings!get!so!
specific.!It’s!funny,!because!in!Mozart’s!day,!composers!didn’t!provide!a!whole!lot!of!
markings!because!it!was!up!to!the!performer!to!interpret!the!music!and!make!those!
decisions.!
BP:!Yeah,!not!only!the!notations,!but!the!cadenzas!were!the!performer’s!
responsibility.!I!remember!on!Buddy!Rich’s!band!I!was!playing!lead,!and!a!player!
came!out,!and!finally!we!had!to!have!some!words.!I!said,!“Listen,!play!with!me.!
You’re!not!playing!with!me.”!And!he!said,!“Well,!I!heard!the!record!so!I!know!how!
it’s!supposed!to!go.”!And!I!said,!“Well,!no.!How!I’m!playing!it!is!how!it’s!supposed!to!
go.!I’ve!changed!some!of!the!stuff,!so!phrase!with!me.”!And!he!did,!but!it’s!like!as!you!
come!into!a!band!as!a!new!player,!you!kind!of!take!your!time,!but!then!you!start!to!
add!your!own!stuff!to!it,!and!a!band!can!evolve!that!way,!and!that’s!what!performers!
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need!to!do.!If!they’re!not!allowed!to!do!that,!it’s!not!nearly!as!rewarding,!and!I!don’t!
think!it!comes!across!as!well,!either.!
JS:!Yeah,!I!don’t!think!the!audience!feels!it!as!much,!and!I!also!feel!that!if!you’ve!
heard!the!album!and!then!you!go!to!a!live!performance!and!everything!is!exactly!as!
it!was!on!the!album,!then!there’s!not!really!any!point!to!the!live!performance.!
BP:!Yeah,!you!could!just!play!the!album.!That’s!more!like!pop!music,!where!they!
rehearse!and!rehearse!and!rehearse!until!it’s!exactly!the!same,!but!in!a!jazz!setting,!
it’s!supposed!to!be!different.!It’s!supposed!to!evolve,!and!it’s!supposed!to!change!
over!time!as!new!players!come!and!go,!and!that’s!part!of!the!jazz!ethic!–!to!put!your!
own!personal!mark!on!it!–!and!that’s!something!I!think!that’s!not!as!strong!as!it!used!
to!be.!Duke!Ellington!wrote!his!charts!–!Toshiko!Akiyoshi!did!that!too!–!she!put!your!
own!name!on!the!part.!It!was!never!for!second!trombone.!It!was!“Charlie!Loper,”!
“Bruce!Paulson,”!“Bill!Reichenbach.”!It!was!names!because!she!was!thinking!of!you!
when!she!wrote!it.!And!that’s!of!course!what!Duke!Ellington!did!to!great!advantage.!
So!that’s!an!interesting!evolution!that!I!don’t!think!exists!as!much,!but!that’s!so!all!
kinds!of!people!can!play!your!charts.!But!different!bands!will!play!the!same!chart!
differently,!I!would!hope.!
JS:!Do!you!think!current!big!bands!have!a!responsibility!in!preserving!some!of!the!
classic!big!band!charts,!doing!performances,!and!what!balance!would!you!strike!
between!playing!classic!charts!versus!playing!new!stuff?!
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BP:!Well,!of!course!that’s!an!individual!choice!that!guys!will!make,!just!like!
symphony!orchestras.!You!have!to!play!a!few!Beethoven!things!before!you!play!
Webern,!or!whoever!it!might!be.!I!guess!in!a!perfect!world!you!would!hope!there!
would!be!that!variety,!but!that’s!certainly!an!individual!choice,!and!some!guys!go!
way!back!and!play!lots!of!early!stuff.!Joe!LaBarbera!and!I!were!listening!to!Chick!
Corea,!Gary!Burton,!and!Jack!DeJohnette,!and!they!were!doing!a!rehash!of!the!Benny!
Goodman!style,!and!I!thought!they!were!brilliant.!This!was!the!quartet.!It!sounded!
brilliant,!but!then!Joe!said,!“Now!let’s!listen!to!the!original.”!And!it!was!Gene!Krupa,!
Benny!Goodman,!and!Eddie!Daniels.!So!we!listened!to!that,!and!it!was!just!a!whole!
extra!level!of!brilliance!and!beauty,!because!it!was!their!music.!It!was!the!real!guys!
doing!it,!and!these!other!guys!were!maybe!better!instrumentalists!even,!but!it!just!
didn’t!ring!the!same!way.!So!you!can!do!all!that!old!stuff,!but!in!some!senses!it’s!
better!to!let!the!old!guys!do!it!–!you!know,!just!listen!to!the!originals!and!have!your!
own!personality.!That’s!of!course!the!difference!in!big!band.!In!some,!the!leader!has!
written!all!the!music,!so!everything!that’s!played!is!by!the!leader,!and!other!bands!
have!all!kinds!of!charts!by!different!guys,!and!in!some!ways!that’s!more!interesting!
for!the!players!at!least.!Some!bands!start!to!sound!the!same!on!every!tune!if!it’s!the!
same!writer.!I!think!it’s!great!to!keep!the!tradition!going!with!some!of!the!older!stuff,!
but!that’s!a!personal!choice!that!leaders!make.!
JS:!So!I’ll!ask!one!last!question!that!I’ve!been!asking!everyone:!either!what!do!you!
see!for!the!future!of!big!band,!or!what!would!you!like!to!see?!
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BP:!Well,!the!economics!of!it!have!changed!everything!so!dramatically,!and!the!fact!
that!there!aren’t!really!clubs!for!bands!–!it’s!all!either!a!concert!hall!or!maybe!a!
dance!or!something.!The!technology!and!the!economics!have!made!that!whole!kind!
of!band!disappear,!particularly!the!ones!that!play!together!every!night.!Even!the!
Tonight!Show!band,!as!good!as!that!was,!when!we!had!a!couple!of!weeks!off!and!
came!back,!the!audience!couldn’t!tell!the!difference,!but!we!could!feel!that!we!were!a!
little!bit!off!our!form.!So!those!bands,!like!Woody,!Maynard,!and!Duke,!they!played!
together!every!single!night.!And!the!same!with!the!small!groups!–!Cannonball,!
Horace!Silver,!and!all!those!guys!–!they!played!for!years!together.!And!so!there’s!a!
part!of!the!music!that’s!missing!now:!that!unity,!that!incredible!feeling!that!guys!
know!what!the!other!guy!is!going!to!do.!So!that!part!of!the!music!is!kind!of!lost.!Even!
the!really!good!bands!don’t!play!together!as!much!as!they!used!to,!and!so!that’s!just!
a!difference.!But!I!think!the!universities!will!keep!the!thing!going,!and!a!few!civic!
bands!–!certain!cities!kind!of!sponsor!things.!But!I!think!it’s!kind!of!relegated!to!the!
universities.!They’re!the!only!ones!to!really!have!a!place!to!rehearse!and!a!place!to!
keep!it!going,!and!as!far!as!the!regular!bands!that!play!out!on!the!scene,!it’s!much!
more!limited.!And!that’s!the!same!with!all!live!music.!People!stay!at!home!and!watch!
videos!and!play!video!games,!and!they!can’t!go!out!because!you!can’t!drink!and!
drive!anymore!and!you!can’t!pick!up!chicks.!There!used!to!be!an!audience!there.!You!
could!go!into!a!club!at!midnight!and!the!place!was!full!of!people.!Now,!by!10!o’clock!
most!towns!are!kind!of!shut!down.!So!it’s!an!era!that’s!not!going!to!come!back.!A!lot!
of!people!say,!“Oh,!the!big!bands!will!return.”!No!they!won’t.![laughs]!Only!the!
subsidized!ones!by!the!universities!and!things,!and!it’s!a!great!tradition,!but!I!think!it!
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will!remain!captive!in!the!universities,!for!good!and!for!bad,!but!it’s!a!different!
scene.!I!was!lucky!enough!to!get!in!on!the!tail!end!of!it!when!it!was!still!happening.!
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Dave!Pietro!
Personal!Interview!
October!8,!2014!
Dave(Pietro(is(a(New(York(based(saxophonist(who(has(played(in(many(contemporary(
big(bands,(including(those(of(Darcy(James(Argue,(Maria(Schneider,(and(Toshiko(
Akiyoshi.(Pietro(is(also(an(Assistant(Professor(of(Jazz(Studies(at(New(York(University.(
JS:!What!got!you!started!in!big!band?!
DP:!Well,!I!grew!up!listening!to!a!fair!amount!of!big!band.!My!dad!had!a!lot!of!albums!
of!Les!and!Larry!Elgart,!Glenn!Miller,!Al!Martino!–!some!of!the!more!popular!big!
bands!from!the!40s!and!50s.!I!was!born!in!the!60s,!so!we!were!still!using!the!big!hii
fi’s,!and!I!remember!putting!those!records!on!and!listening!to!them!as!a!kid.!So!I!
kind!of!grew!up!with!that!sound!in!my!ear!and!in!my!head.!Then!when!I!joined!the!
school!band!I!was!lucky!enough!that!my!elementary!and!junior!high!school!band!
director!was!a!graduate!of!Berklee!School!of!Music,!and!he!actually!wrote!his!own!
big!band!arrangements.!So!when!I!had!only!been!playing!the!saxophone!for!two!
months!or!so!I!was!already!playing!some!features!with!a!big!band.![laughs]!I!just!
took!it!for!granted!at!the!time.!The!high!school!I!went!to!in!Massachusetts,!
Algonquin!Regional!High!School,!had!one!of!the!top!jazz!bands!in!the!state,!so!I!was!
lucky!enough!even!before!I!went!off!to!college!to!have!had!some!really!good!
experiences!playing!in!big!bands.!!I!went!to!the!University!of!New!Hampshire!for!
two!years,!and!then!I!transferred!and!ultimately!got!my!degree!in!Music!Education!
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from!the!University!of!North!Texas,!which!is!one!of!the!top!jazz!schools!in!the!
country.!I!was!there!in!the!mid!80s,!and!there!were!nine!big!bands.!I!played!in!the!
One!O’Clock!for!two!years!and!recorded!four!albums!with!that!band.!We!would!meet!
four!times!a!week!and!just!read!charts!every!day.!We!would!just!read!read,!read,!
read,!read.!My!sight!reading!was!never!as!good!as!when!I!was!21i22!years!old.!!I!
moved!to!New!York!in!1987,!and!in!1988!I!went!on!the!road!with!the!Woody!
Herman!band!for!a!year.!In!1989,!I!went!out!with!Lionel!Hampton!for!a!year,!and!in!
1990!I!went!out!with!Maynard!Ferguson’s!band!for!a!year.!I!then!started!subbing!on!
Toshiko!Akiyoshi’s!band!for!Jim!Snidero!and!some!other!people,!and!when!Jerry!
Dodgion!left!in!1993!or!94,!I!joined!the!band!full!time.!!I’ve!played!lead!alto!with!
Toshiko!for!the!last!twenty!years.!Around!that!same!time,!when!I!first!moved!to!New!
York,!I!also!started!subbing!with!Maria!Schneider’s!band.!I’ve!been!playing!with!that!
band!for!over!20!years,!and!have!been!an!official!member!of!the!band!for!the!last!2!
years!or!so.!!Also,!I’ve!done!a!few!big!band!albums!with!my!friends!Pete!McGuinness,!
Anita!Brown!and!Mike!Holober!who!are!all!great!writers.!!And!I've!done!a!lot!of!
other!large!ensembles!like!the!Gil!Evans!Project.!I’ve!written!a!number!of!my!own!
charts,!and!I!bring!them!when!I!do!guest!artist!appearances!at!schools.!Most!times!
I’ll!send!my!charts!ahead!of!time!so!the!band!can!rehearse!them.!!In!fact!I!just!came!
back!from!the!University!of!North!Carolina.!So!big!band!is!a!large!part!of!my!life,!for!
better!or!for!worse.![laughs]!You!know,!it’s!funny,!when!I!did!the!Thelonius!Monk!
competition!–!well,!I!did!2!of!them,!one!in!1992!and!one!in!1996!–my!resume!in!the!
programs!and!other!publicity!referred!to!me!as!"a!big!band!saxophonist".!I!was!like,!
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“I’m!already!getting!a!reputation,!playing!in!so!many!big!bands.”![laughs]!But!it’s!
been!a!great!experience.!I’ve!enjoyed!it.!
JS:!Do!you!have!any!thoughts!on!jazz!moving!into!the!university?!
DP:!!I!could!spend!the!next!24!hours!talking!about!this!!!!I!love!teaching!–!actually,!I!
was!a!music!ed!major!in!college!–!and!I've!always!known!that!teaching!would!be!a!
big!part!of!my!life.!!However,!I've!always!considered!myself!a!player!first.!If!I!had!to!
make!a!choice!between!the!two,!I!would!certainly!quit!teaching!and!just!play!for!a!
living.!I!enjoy!teaching!but!it’s!a!separate,!completely!different!discipline!than!
playing.!!Regarding!Jazz!moving!into!the!universities!I!have!to!admit!that!I!struggle!
with!this!because!I!don’t!know!that!it’s!a!good!fit,!to!be!honest!with!you.!The!
learning!curve!for!music!and!the!way!that!it’s!learned,!I!don’t!know!that!it’s!easily!
graded!in!one!semester!or!one!test.!It’s!this!whole!thing!about!people!starting!to!
teach!to!the!test!because!that’s!what!you!have!to!do,!and!that’s!not!really!how!we!
learn!in!life.!So!I!struggle!with!this!all!the!time.!I!have!a!real!dilemma!about!it.!When!
I!first!moved!to!New!York!–!you!know!I!was!talking!about!playing!with!Toshiko!
Akiyoshi!–!the!2!people!I!got!to!play!with!in!that!band!when!I!subbed!for!Jim!was!
Frank!Wess!and!Jerry!Dodgion,!and!neither!of!those!guys!went!to!school.!They!were!
an!older!generation!–!Frank!just!passed,!he!was!in!his!90’s,!and!Jerry!is!in!his!80’s.!I!
never!took!one!lesson!with!those!guys,!but!I!played!a!number!of!gigs!with!them,!
especially!with!Jerry.!!Just!sitting!next!to!them!on!a!gig!or!rehearsal!was!the!greatest!
of!lessons!!!!I!feel!fortunate!that!I!was!perhaps!part!of!the!last!generation!of!
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musicians!to!have!had!that!experience,!of!being!on!the!bandstand!with!Maynard!
Ferguson,!or!Lionel!Hampton,!or!Frank!Wess,!or!any!of!these!people!who!never!
went!to!school,!who!were!old!school.!!They!learned!on!the!road,!and!when!I!played!
with!them!I!was!learning!the!way!they!had!learned.!In!many!ways,!I!feel!like!I!got!the!
best!of!both!worlds!–!I!got!a!great!education!in!school,!but!at!the!same!time!I!
received!an!amazing!second!education!of!just!playing!with!some!of!the!jazz!greats!
on!the!bandstand.!
When!I!first!got!to!New!York,!I!worked!at!the!Rainbow!Room!for!5i6!nights!a!week.!
At!first,!I!couldn’t!figure!out!why!they!hired!me,!because!I!was!24!or!25!and!most!of!
the!band!members!were!much!older!than!me.!But!then!I!figured!out!that!my!age!was(
the!reason!they!hired!me.!They!wanted!to!freshen!up!or!“youngen”!up!the!band.!So!I!
was!on!the!bandstand!with!these!guys!who!were!50i60i70!years!old!playing!old!
tunes,!many!of!them!society!standards!I!didn't!know.!They!would!fake!the!
arrangements!and!all!this!kind!of!stuff.!!I!didn't!know!many!of!the!tunes!or!how!to!
fake!an!arrangement!in!New!York!society!band!style,!but!it!was!a!really!great!
experience!for!me.!!It!was!definitely!old!school!in!terms!of!how!I!learned!on!the!gig.!I!
don’t!know!that!students!get!these!opportunities!as!much!now.!The!opportunity!to!
be!on!the!bandstand!with!seasoned!veterans!who!learned!on!the!gig.!That’s!why!I!
feel!like!part!of!my!job!is!to!try!to!recreate!that!kind!of!environment!as!best!as!
possible.!!I!play!with!my!ensembles,!with!my!private!students!and!I!try!to!teach!
them!in!the!old!school!way.!But!as!much!as!you!may!try,!you!can’t!really!create!that!
in!an!academic!environment.!What!troubles!me!is!that!at!a!lot!of!schools,!the!people!
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who!are!teaching!are!people!who!haven’t!had!that!experience,!so!they’re!going!from!
academic!experience!to!academic!experience.!It’s!getting!kind!of!lost!I!think,!this!
apprenticeship!that!we!were!talking!about!before.!It’s!becoming!more!and!more!
difficult!to!come!by,!difficult!to!see!the!lineage!in!that!way,!which!is!too!bad.!But!this!
is!life!–!some!things!are!gained,!some!things!are!lost.!It’s!like!with!recordings!–!we!
have!more!recordings!available!to!us!than!at!any!other!time,!but!there!was!a!value!to!
only!having!6!recordings!and!listening!to!them!so!much!that!you!memorized!them!
and!had!a!relationship!with!them.!So!something!is!gained!and!something!is!lost.!!I!
try!to!look!upon!that!which!is!gained!and!try!to!adapt!in!this!way.!!I!think!with!big!
bands!it’s!much!the!same.!I!do!think!that!the!art!of!lead!alto!playing!that!I!grew!up!
with!is!almost!gone,!for!two!reasons:!the!lineage!thing!we!were!talking!about,!but!
also!because!people!don’t!write!this!way!anymore.!Not!that!they!should,!I’m!just!
saying!that!languages,!cultures!come!and!go!and!this!is!part!of!life.!But!that!school!of!
being!able!to!play!in!a!large!ensemble!is!diminishing.!I!don’t!want!to!say!that!it’s!
going!away,!but!it’s!certainly!not!what!it!was.!
JS:!Talking!about!all!the!recordings!available!–!I!remember!a!mentor!of!mine!who!is!
Ukrainian!said!he!went!back!to!Ukraine!to!see!a!performance,!and!at!the!time!they!
didn’t!really!have!access!to!recordings.!He!was!saying!that!he!thought!that!we!don’t!
listen!as!well,!because!we!can!listen!to!something!at!any!time.!So!just!having!that!
option,!people!tend!not!to!be!as!involved.!
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DP:!I!have!many!theories!about!this,!one!of!which!is!that!–!we!have!so!much!
information!that!we’re!jumping!around!from!this!to!that.!On!a!related!note,!!as!I!said!
before!I!just!went!to!the!University!of!North!Carolina!and!did!a!concert!there.!I!
walked!in!to!a!restaurant!and!there's!a!student!group,!a!quartet,!playing.!!Above!
them!the!TV!is!on!with!a!football!game.!Out!in!the!restaurant!they!still!have!the!
piped!in!music!going,!and!on!top!of!that!everyone!sitting!in!front!was!on!their!
iPhones.!Now!to!me,!that’s!a!cacophonous!situation,!because!there!are!3!different!
sound!sources!and!for!the!people!listening,!4!different!informational!sources,!and!it!
didn’t!seem!to!bother!anybody.!So!I!said,!“Can!you!turn!the!TV!off?”!“Oh!yeah,!sure.”!
“Can!you!turn!the!music!off!in!the!restaurant?”!The!restaurant!was!closed.!They!
were!just!switching!over!to!the!band.!“Oh!yeah,!sure.”!It!wasn’t!my!classroom,!so!I!
couldn’t!tell!people!to!turn!their!phones!off!!!!Unfortunately,!it’s!become!the!norm!
now,!and!it’s!really!disturbing!to!me,!because!it's!not!only!happening!with!music!–!
you!see!it!happening!with!our!political!situation.!!You!see!it!happening!around!the!
world!–!people!are!losing!the!ability!to!actually!listen!to!one!another.!I!see!it!mostly!
in!our!political!system.!I!don’t!care!what!side!you’re!on,!people!are!losing!the!ability!
to!listen!to!one!another.!They!just!hear!what!they!want!to!hear!when!they!want!to!
hear!it.!!They!just!want!to!hear!their!own!voice.!This!is!what!the!music!largely!
sounds!like!to!me!that!a!lot!of!people!are!creating!today,!what!I!call!parallel!playing,!
where!everybody!is!kind!of!doing!their!own!thing!simultaneously.!I!don’t!hear!a!lot!
of!listening!and!true!interaction!going!on.!I!talk!to!my!students!about!this!all!time.!
Again,!it!is!what!it!is.!Music!is!a!reflection!of!the!times,!and!that’s!the!kind!of!times!
we!live!in!right!now,!a!very!narcissistic!period!with!a!lot!of!cacophony.!I!was!2!feet!
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behind!a!student!the!other!day!trying!to!get!their!attention,!and!they!had!their!
earbuds!in.!I’m!yelling!his!name,!and!he!didn’t!respond.!I!thought,!“there’s!
something!wrong!with!this.”!There’s!something!wrong!with!being!that!disconnected!
with!our!surroundings,!that!we!all!have!to!constantly!be!in!our!own!world.!Look,!I!
understand!that!you’re!riding!a!bus,!and!you’re!there!for!4!hours,!and!you!need!to!
escape!and!pass!the!time.!I!get!it.!I!do!that!myself.!I!have!a!computer,!I!have!
headphones,!but!I!like!to!hear!the!sounds!around!me.!I!like!to!hear!the!sounds!of!the!
streets.!!I!like!to!hear!the!sounds!of!people!walking.!!I!like!to!hear!the!sounds!of!
people’s!conversations!coming!and!going.!You!hear!some!funny!things!in!New!York,!
right?!People!walk!by!and!you!want!to!write!the!stuff!down.!You’re!like,!“I!can’t!
believe!what!I!just!heard.”!This!is!music!to!me.!This!is!how!music!is!created,!but!I!
think!that’s!being!lost!in!a!way.!This!is!where!I!love!the!large!ensemble.!You!say!big!
band,!but!everyone’s!calling!them!jazz!orchestras!now.!The!term!big!band!has!kind!
of!gone!out.!In!fact,!Maria!Schneider!doesn’t!even!call!it!a!jazz!orchestra!anymore,!
just!the!Maria!Schneider!Orchestra.!It’s!all!terminology,!but!in!any!large!ensemble!
it's!crucial!to!listen!to!one!another!and!to!interact.!This!is!why!I!think!it’s!critical!to!
keep!music!in!schools.!It’s!science.!It’s!social!science.!!It’s!not!about!entertainment.!
The!argument!in!a!lot!of!schools!–!I’m!getting!off!on!another!thing,!but!this!is!an!
important!statement!to!make!i!the!argument!in!schools!is!that!music!is!
entertainment,!and!that’s!how!it’s!treated!by!the!administrations.!But!to!me,!music!is!
social!science,!and!especially!in!the!school!systems,!because!music!(and!team!sports!
falls!into!this!category)!teaches!you!many!things.!In!a!large!ensemble,!in!any!one!
piece!of!music,!your!part!may!require!you!to!take!the!lead,!to!support!someone!else,!
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to!blend!with!someone!else,!to!solo,!and!it’s!constantly!moving.!You!have!to!be!
listening!all!the!time!and!know!what!your!role!is!at!that!moment!–!are!you!
supporting!someone,!are!you!leading!the!saxophone!section,!are!you!following!the!
trumpet!player,!are!you!playing!a!duet!with!the!trombone!player,!what’s!going!on?!
Your!ears!are!moving!around!and!you’re!constantly!aware!of!the!social!network!that!
is!happening.!This!awareness!to!me!is!like!a!society.!A!big!band!is!like!a!small!little!
society!that!makes!beautiful!sounds.!Maybe!this!is!why!Darcy!Argue!calls!his!band!
the!Secret!Society!!!I!don’t!think!it’s!for!no!reason!that!we!say!people!live!together!in!
harmony.!This!is!the!relationship.!So!I!like!to!take!this!social!aspect!of!the!ensemble!
and!develop!it!when!I!do!clinics!with!school!bands.!Especially!when!I’m!talking!to!
younger!groups,!where!most!of!them!are!not!going!to!be!music!majors.!!We!can!
address!all!these!things.!I!think!they’re!very!important!lessons.!This!is!one!aspect!of!
the!music!that!I’ve!always!liked.!A!big!band!is!large!enough!that!you!can!get!many!of!
these!great!sounds!that!you!can!get!in!an!orchestra,!but!small!enough!that!there’s!a!
certain!amount!of!freedom!for!the!soloists!and!for!everybody.!It’s!not!like!a!huge!
orchestra,!where!you!have!to!have!a!concerto!to!feature!one!person.!So!I!love!this!
combination!of!the!individual!and!the!society!all!in!one.!
JS:!I!try!to!tell!as!many!people!as!I!can!that!whether!or!not!they!want!to!be!a!
musician!for!a!career,!they!should!play!with!people,!because!that!whole!social!thing!
is…!
DP:!It’s!fun!!
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JS:!Exactly.!
DP:!It’s!really!fun!to!make!great!sounds!with!other!people.!We!do!it!from!when!we’re!
very!young.!There’s!just!something!very!primal!about!it!really,!and!that’s!satisfying!
to!us.!!I!just!hope!that!as!a!society!we!don't!lose!sight!of!the!importance!of!listening!
to!one!another,!of!interacting!with!one!another,!of!being!harmonious!with!one!
another.!!Music!can!be!a!powerful!tool!to!help!us!remember!these!things!and!to!
show!us!how!it's!done,!while!at!the!same!time!providing!us!with!beautiful!sounds!
and!a!wonderful!means!of!artistic!expression.!!!
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Monika!Roscher!
Email!Interview!
July!22,!2015!
Monika(Roscher(is(a(guitarist(and(composer(residing(in(Munich,(Germany.(Roscher(
assembled(a(big(band(to(play(her(compositions(for(her(graduation(recital(at(the(
Hochschule(für(Musik(und(Theater(München.(Since(that(time,(her(band(has(recorded(
and(released(two(albums,(“Failure(in(Wonderland”(and(“Of(Monsters(and(Birds.”(
JS:!How!did!you!get!started!in!music?!
MR:!We!had!a!piano,!a!double!bass!and!some!guitars!at!home,!because!my!parents!
both!played!these!instruments!and!always!sang!to!and!with!us,!so!I!wanted!to!learn!
to!play!the!guitar!as!well.!My!mom!taught!me!the!chords!and!how!to!read!music,!and!
I!had!a!great!time!learning!and!playing!by!myself!or!with!my!mother!and!my!
brother.!Next!step!was!that!I!played!in!school!bands!and!then!we!wrote!our!own!
music!with!our!own!bands.!I!went!to!all!concerts!around,!no!matter!what!musical!
styles!they!were,!from!Classical!to!Metal,!from!Hiphop!to!FreeiJazz.!Thats!when!I!
knew!I!had!to!be!a!musician.!I!just!like!music,!and!I!don't!care!about!the!categories.!
JS:!Your!website!says!that!your!first!big!band!chart!was!written!for!a!composition!
class.!Were!you!required!to!write!for!a!big!band!specifically,!or!did!you!just!want!to!
try!out!the!ensemble?!And!what!was!it!about!that!experience!that!made!you!want!to!
continue!composing!for!big!band?!
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MR:!We!had!a!class!on!how!to!write!for!Bigband,!so!I!joined!it!because!I!wanted!to!
write!for!all!the!instruments,!it!was!more!about!just!trying!it!out.!And!it!really!hit!me!
that!this!is!what!I!wanted!to!do,!because!you!have!so!many!possible!sound!
combinations,!and!you!can!do!anything,!its!like!a!huge!playground,!the!possibilities!
are!gigantic,!and!there!are!still!so!many!things!to!try!out.!And!also!because!my!
friends!at!the!music!conservatory!were!all!really!into!my!pieces,!they!all!were!like:!
write!more!!So!that's!what!I!did!for!my!diplomaiconcert.!And!on!the!evening!of!my!
final!concert!at!the!college,!there!was!a!guy,!he!said!if!you!ever!want!to!record!that,!
give!me!a!call!!...so!I!started!thinking,!should!I!really!try!a!bigband!for!real,!and!play!
concerts!and!make!a!record?!So!I!thought!about!that!for!2!months,!and!then!I!called!
the!whole!band,!and!they!were!all!totally!in,!and!loved!the!idea!of!forming!a!band.!So!
I!called!the!recording!guy!from!the!concert!evening,!Philipp!Winter,!and!we!started!
talking!about!a!record,!and!we!organized!everything!and!did!our!first!album.!That’s!
what!happened.!
JS:!Who!are!some!of!your!musical!influences?!
MR:!I!feel!like!this!is!changing!all!the!time.!I!have!no!influence!that!is!my!main!thing,!
because!I!like!a!lot!of!musical!styles,!orchestral!music,!free!jazz,!electronic!music,!but!
also!if!there!is!a!singer!songwriter!who!can!only!play!three!chords,!but!has!a!great!
message!in!his!singing,!then!I!also!love!it.!It!doesn't!necessarily!have!to!be!the!most!
virtuoso!style,!but!I!also!like!that!as!well.!Right!now!I!like!Gorecki’s!Symphony!2!and!
Symphony!4!(I!went!to!the!world!premiere!in!London!2014),!I!like!the!Mars!Volta,!
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Mahavishnu!Orchestra,!Jeff!Beck,!Beattles,!Zappa,!Carla!Bley,!Queens!of!the!Stone!
Age,!Aphex!Twin,!Foals,!Chris!McGregor's!Brotherhood,!ZS,!Feist,!Gil!Evans,!Hermeto!
Pascoal,!Imogen!Heap,!Zorn,!...I!could!go!on!like!this:)!
JS:!Tell!me!about!your!creative!process.!There!are!often!several!ideas!at!play!in!your!
music,!and!I!am!curious!to!know!how!you!determine!the!overall!structure!of!a!tune.!
Do!you!have!an!overall!form!in!mind!at!the!start?!Or!do!you!develop!ideas!
individually!up!to!a!point,!and!then!determine!how!everything!will!fit!together?!
MR:!I!once!tried!to!have!a!rough!form!in!the!beginning,!but!it!never!worked!out,!I!
always!end!up!somewhere!else!I!didn’t!expect!and!haven't!planned.!So!now,!I!don't!
even!think!about!where!I!am!going!to!end.!For!me!it!is!a!process,!I!go!into!the!music,!
and!I!will!see!what!will!happen,!sometimes!it!unfolds!itself!and!I!can!totally!get!into!
it!and!write!along!and!fly!along,!sometimes!it!is!more!like!a!fight,!I!throw!things!
away!and!try!new!things,!but!nothing!is!fitting,...yeah,!I!kind!of!try!to!let!things!
flow,...if!that!makes!any!sense.!
JS:!How!has!your!experience!leading!a!big!band!been!in!terms!of!getting!funding,!
finding!musicians,!rehearsing,!recording,!and!booking!tour!dates?!
MR:!Well!this!is!the!part!you!just!have!to!do,!if!you!want!to!keep!a!bigband!alive.!I!
spend!a!lot!of!time!doing!these!things,!and!I!sometimes!think,!is!this!ever!going!to!
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end?!I!need!a!booker,!I!really!do.!But!we!are!just!recording!our!new!album,!so!I!still!
have!hopes!that!with!our!new!album!we!will!find!a!great!booker!for!us.!
And!yes!it!just!is!a!lot!of!work,!but!I!don’t!really!think!a!lot!about!it!that!much,!
because!you!just!have!to!do!that,!I!want!to!play!concerts,!so!I!need!to!have!good!
musicians,!rehearsals,!and!funds.!Its!like!it!you!want!to!cook,!you!have!to!buy!food,!
there!is!no!way!around.!
MR:!I!see!in!the!future!a!lot!of!young!bigbands!that!like!to!experiment!with!all!kinds!
of!influences!and!styles.!I!would!love!to!see!these!bigbands!!I!also!love!traditional!
bigbands,!but!I!also!want!to!feel!the!music!that!is!now!appearing.!What!are!
musicians!today!writing!for!bigband,!what!is!different!from!those!from!the!past,!
what!do!we!see!now,!that!people!before!us!have!not!seen?!We!shouldn't!copy!too!
much,!because!every!person!kind!of!looks!the!same,!but!we!are!totally!different!
people,!it's!the!same!with!music.!A!bigband!looks!traditional,!but!when!it!opens!its!
mouth,!it!says!something!exciting!about!our!times,!in!which!we!live.!
JS:!Is!there!anything!else!you!would!like!to!add?!
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MR:!I!would!like!to!find!bigbands!all!over!the!world,!and!would!like!to!trade!places,!
that!would!be!very!interesting.!What!are!people!writing!for!bigbands!in!the!US,!or!in!
Egypt?!Or!in!India?!We!should!meet!and!have!big!bigband!exchanges,!that!would!be!
a!blast!:)!
And!of!course:!Always!keep!experimenting!!
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Rich!Shemaria!
Personal!Interview!
April!18,!2014!
Rich(Shemaria(is(a(New(York(based(pianist(and(composer/arranger.(In(addition(to(
leading(his(own(big(band,(Shemaria(is(on(the(composition(faculty(at(both(New(York(
University(and(The(New(School,(and(formerly(was(the(director(of(the(UMO(Jazz(
Orchestra(in(Helsinki,(Finland.(
PreiInterview!
JS:![regarding!the!division!of!styles]!It!does!seem!that!things!are!not!quite!as!parsed!
out!elsewhere.!Some!of!what!I!was!finding!in!the!European!big!bands!demonstrated!
an!attitude!toward!what’s!available!for!them!to!arrange!that!shows!a!lot!of!freedom.!
It’s!very!playful.!
RS:!It’s!great.!Those!bands!come!with!their!own!set!of!problems,!too.!I!was!the!
director!for!the!UMO!big!band.!We!have!an!album!coming!out!June!10,!as!a!matter!of!
fact.!They’re!doing!it!with!a!U.S.!record!company!–!it’s!the!first!time!they’ve!ever!
done!that.!It’s!Lenny!Pickett!and!his!music,!and!I!got!to!do!all!the!orchestrations.!
We’re!both!really!happy!with!the!whole!thing!and!looking!forward!to!the!release.!
But,!just!what!you!were!talking!about!–!that!never!would!have!come!off!if!it!hadn’t!
been!for!that!kind!of!attitude.!In!fact,!we!got!these!commissions!in!that!we’re!getting!
grants!for!a!concert!next!year,!where!there!will!be!five!of!us!international!composers!
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doing!a!tribute!to!Sibelius!for!the!UMO!big!band.!Where!else!are!you!going!to!find!
that?!It’s!just!not!going!to!happen.!
JS:!I!particularly!liked!the!Vienna!Art!Orchestra’s!Strauss!albums,!which!was!funny!
since!they!are!essentially!descended!from!Strauss’!dance!orchestra!of!the!19th!
century.!
RS:!Even!here!–!it’s!not!that!well!known!–!William!Schuman!had!his!own!dance!band!
here!in!New!York,!and!actually!wrote!songs!at!the!same!time!with!Ira!Gershwin.!
They!wrote,!in!fact,!a!lot!of!songs,!and!he!said,!“I!was!well!known!for!writing!the!
most!songs!with!Ira!Gershwin!that!were!never!heard.”![laughs]!But!they!were!both!
kids;!they!were!young!and!it!was!pretty!wild.!And!regarding!the!Sibelius!tribute,!it’s!
not!about!taking!his!pieces!and!writing!jazz!arrangements,!it’s!your!impression!of!
what!he!was!like!and!how!his!music!sounds.!You!can!use!motifs,!but!I’m!not!going!to!
do!the!jazz!version!of!the!Second!Symphony.!
Official!Start!
!JS:!I!suppose!we!can!start!with!you!giving!me!your!basic!background!in!music!and!
with!the!ensemble,!how!you!came!to!it,!who!you!listened!to,!and!how!that!shaped!
your!view!of!it.!
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RS:!Well,!I!grew!up!in!Long!Beach,!California,!and!in!the!60s!and!70s!Southern!
California!had!a!really!nice!jazz!scene,!cultural!scene,!music!scene,!art!scene,!
everything.!I!really!remember!it!being!very!diverse!and!very!rich.!There!was!a!lot!of!
stuff!going!on.!At!the!same!time!I!was!listening!to!classical!music,!jazz!music!later!on!
(when!I!was!about!12!or!13),!pop!music,!rock!music,!surf!music,!the!Beatles!came!
over!–!it!was!a!wild!time.!I!loved!going!to!art!museums,!science!museums,!musicals,!
and!plays,!so!it!was!great!–!you!had!everything.!I’ve!played!different!instruments!–!
electric!bass,!trombone,!and!didn’t!start!playing!the!piano!until!later.!I!didn’t!start!
playing!in!organized!bands!until!I!was!in!high!school.!I!played!in!a!summer!big!band!
that!just!had!stock!arrangements,!and!I!think!back!on!it!and!I!can’t!even!imagine!
what!that!was!like.!I!was!playing!bass,!and!I!was!like,!“Hey,!this!is!pretty!cool.!I!can!
do!this,!this!is!fun.”!Then!when!I!got!into!high!school,!there!was!a!jazz!band,!so!I!
played!in!that,!and!that’s!when!things!started!rolling.!I!had!small!groups!at!the!time,!
and!I!had!ventured!out!writing!around!the!time!I!was!14i15!–!really!small!things.!I!
had!a!band!that!had!a!tenor!saxophone!and!a!trombone!in!it,!because!at!that!time!
(1971i72)!a!very!popular!group!was!the!Jazz!Crusaders,!which!was!Wilton!Felder!
and!Wayne!Henderson,!and!they!had!that!unison!sound,!and!it!really!got!to!
everybody.!So!I!wrote!something!for!that!combination,!and!I!heard!it!for!the!first!
time,!and!I!thought!that!was!just!the!greatest!thing!that!I!had!ever!heard!in!the!
world.![laughs]!Basically!it!was!just!my!first!experience!hearing!my!own!
orchestrations!back,!and!I!went,!“Wow,!you!can!combine!instruments!and!they!will!
produce!this!third!sound.!What!a!fantastic!discovery.”!Growing!up!in!Long!Beach,!I!
was!right!down!the!street!from!Disneyland!in!Anaheim,!and!they!had!a!summer!big!
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band!series!that!ran!for!quite!a!while!at!this!little!stage!called!the!Carnation!Plaza,!
and!throughout!the!summer!they!would!bring!in!these!big!name!big!bands.!They!
would!stay!there!for!a!week!or!two,!so!I!would!hear!Buddy!Rich,!Woody!Herman,!
Don!Ellis,!Stan!Kenton!–!at!the!time!they!were!filling!their!bands!with!young!players,!
they!were!hiring!writers!who!were!writing!pop!songs!on!the!radio,!and!they!had!a!
huge!following!(of!which!I!was!one).!Don!Ellis!lived!in!L.A.,!and!his!band!was!
extremely!popular.!I!heard!him!many!times,!and!they!played!all!over!the!place.!But!
that!series!was!where!I!heard!Count!Basie!for!the!first!time,!and!Duke!Ellington,!
Harry!James,!Charlie!Barnet,!the!line!up!was!a!who’s!who!of!big!bands.!A!lot!of!these!
guys!were!in!the!twilight!of!their!careers,!and!we!were!all!relating!to!Woody!
Herman!and!Buddy!and!all!that,!and!you!didn’t!quite!relate!to!Harry!James!and!the!
dance!bands.!I!was!glad!I!got!a!chance!to!hear!them,!though.!It!was!a!really!good!
experience,!and!it!kind!of!sticks!in!my!mind.!It!was!just!the!overall!sound!–!I!would!
dig!the!sound.!And!a!lot!of!these!bands!I!heard!live!before!I!heard!a!recording!of!
them,!so!that!was!also!an!extra!plus.!
Out!of!high!school,!I!had!an!opportunity!to!move!to!Florida.!I!lived!in!Orlando,!
Florida!for!10!years,!and!that’s!when!I!started!writing.!There!were!a!lot!of!
performers!around!who!were!flocking!to!that!area!to!play!in!the!theme!parks,!and!I!
took!advantage!of!all!the!musicians.!My!first!attempts!at!writing!for!large!ensembles!
were!for!a!10!piece!group,!a!12!piece!group,!and!it!just!kind!of!morphed!into!bigger!
groups!by!some!musician!coming!up!to!me!and!saying,!“Hey!man,!I!love!the!band!
and!I’d!really!love!to!play!in!it.”!And!I’d!say,!“Okay,!I’ve!got!to!add!another!guy.”!And!
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so!my!band!would!get!bigger.!I!think!by!the!time!I!left!there!the!book!I!had!was!
about!14i15!pieces.!I!would!take!some!odd!jobs!and!here!or!there!I’d!write!for!a!
small!orchestra,!and!I!think!I!actually!tried!my!first!standard!big!band!ensemble!
somewhere!there!before!I!left,!but!those!pieces!are!lost.!
So!when!I!came!to!New!York,!I!still!had!my!15ipiece!book,!and!I!began!writing!for!
that!and!playing!around!town.!I!played!at!some!small!clubs!in!the!Village,!an!old!
place!up!on!3rd!Avenue!and!35th!Street!called!Zanzibar,!and!was!just!lucky!enough!to!
be!able!to!work!at!that!time!with!some!great!players!in!the!city.!I!felt!very!fortunate!
that!they!seemed!to!like!what!I!was!doing!and!I!got!to!work!with!some!incredible!
musicians,!some!of!whom!have!gone!on!to!become!internationally!famous.!I!can!
remember!guys!coming!in!–!sometimes!they’d!make!a!gig,!sometimes!they’d!just!be!
in!a!rehearsal!–!like!Joe!Lovano,!Chris!Potter,!Chris!Bodie,!Tim!Hagans,!Marvin!
Stamm,!Jim!Pugh,!Dave!Taylor,!it!goes!on.!There!are!too!many!people!to!name,!but!it!
was!always!a!really!good!musical!experience!every!time!I!played.!That!just!inspired!
me!to!write!more!and!keep!going.!Then!I!began!teaching!–!I!started!teaching!at!
Mannes!College,!then!the!New!School,!and!I’ve!been!at!NYU!for!quite!a!while,!ten!
years!now!I!think.!The!opportunity!here!at!NYU!really!opened!a!lot!of!things!up!for!
me,!because!I!began!writing!for!a!lot!of!the!faculty!members!here!–!Lenny!Pickett,!
Brian!Lynch,!Wayne!Krantz,!Chris!Potter,!Joe!Lovano,!Randy!Brecker!(even!though!
he!was!not!on!faculty,!he!was!part!of!this!series!we!got!going!presenting!concerts).!
And!Dave!Schroeder,!of!course,!was!really!a!tremendous!help!in!getting!this!all!
together!and!helping!me!plan!a!lot!of!it!out.!Many!of!those!projects!became!
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professional!projects!–!we!were!taking!them!abroad,!we!played!in!Italy,!South!
America,!over!in!Nordic!countries.!And!as!I!said!earlier,!one!of!them!was!with!Lenny!
and!the!UMO!Jazz!Orchestra,!and!is!about!to!become!an!international!CD!to!be!
released!here!in!a!couple!of!months.!So,!that’s!basically!it!in!a!nutshell.!
JS:!What!are!your!thoughts!about!the!role!of!jazz!education!and!what!effects!it’s!had!
on!jazz!in!general?!
RS:!Well,!the!music!started!out!like!any!other!type!of!music,!which!is!basically!a!
grassroots!type!of!thing,!or!organic,!or!whatever!you!want!to!call!it.!It!had!to!start!
from!the!soul.!It!comes!from!the!heart;!it!had!a!lot!of!different!influences.!If!you!want!
to!trace!jazz!back!to!where!it!came!from,!it!came!from!all!over!the!place.!But!like!any!
other!music,!as!it!begins!to!grow!and!begins!to!morph!into!a!more!sophisticated!
level,!then!change!is!inevitable.!I!think!jazz!in!the!schools!is!definitely!a!part!of!that!
change.!There!are!so!many!different!sides.!Well,!actually!there!are!two!sides:!there’s!
the!“hate!it”!and!the!“for!it”!side.!But!just!like!anything!else,!it!has!its!ups!and!downs.!
I!think!that!when!it!works,!it’s!great.!There!are!a!lot!of!terrific!musicians!out!there!
making!it!in!the!world!and!offering!their!music!that!have!been!products!of!jazz!
education.!When!it!doesn’t!work,!it!can!be!confining.!In!my!experience,!I’ve!seen!a!
lot!of!misinformation!out!there!as!well.!I!have!students!who!come!to!me!and!say,!
“somebody!told!me!I!can’t!do!this.”!And!I!go,!“Are!you!kidding?!You’re!the!composer.!
You’re!the!writer.”!So!that!I!think!is!the!most!hurtful,!when!students!are!getting!
some!kind!of!influence!that!confines!their!creativity!or!doesn’t!allow!them!to!fully!
explore!their!own!potential.!That’s!the!worst!part.!When!the!opposite!of!that!
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happens,!and!they!get!with!some!teacher!who!knows!how!to!teach!–!and!I!don’t!
mean!just!technique,!I!mean!how!to!influence!people!and!allow!them!to!open!up!and!
reach!their!own!creativity!and!become!who!they!can!become!–!that’s!when!it!really!
works.!I!wish!it!were!all!that!way,!but!you!have!both.!
JS:!Absolutely.!I!guess!even!outside!of!formal!education,!people!always!learn!music!
from!other!people!and!work!together,!and!it!can!be!positive!and!negative.!
RS:!I!will!say!one!thing.!I!love!the!master!and!apprentice!approach!to!learning!things!
that!the!world!has!used!for!hundreds!and!hundreds!of!years.!That’s!one!thing!I!like!
here!at!NYU,!is!that,!as!you!know,!we!basically!have!that!kind!of!thing!happening!
here!in!the!jazz!department.!There’s!a!real!close!affinity!between!the!students!and!
the!teachers,!and!they!get!to!play!with!us,!they!get!to!write!alongside!us.!There!are!
one!or!two!other!places!in!the!world!that!I!know!of!that!have!this!kind!of!thing,!and!
that!whole!process!is!time!tested,!and!it!still!stands!up.!
JS:!When!you!were!learning!to!write,!were!there!any!big!band!writers!you!
particularly!looked!up!to,!or!was!it!a!matter!of!the!band!growing!and!getting!ideas!as!
you!go!along?!
RS:!You!can’t!help!but!be!influenced!by!what’s!going!on!out!there.!You!need!some!
kind!of!ideal!to!live!up!to.!I!can!tell!you!that!my!early!influences!–!even!before!I!was!
writing!–!the!first!3!guys!that!really!captured!my!attention!growing!up!in!Southern!
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California,!in!no!particular!order,!was!Quincy!Jones,!Thad!Jones,!and!Oliver!Nelson.!I!
was!exposed!to!those!guys!when!I!was!a!teenager,!and!they!just!knocked!me!out!
with!everything!that!was!going!on.!Bob!Brookmeyer,!in!particular,!was!a!great!
influence!on!me,!and!of!course!Gil!Evans.!Just!off!the!top!of!my!head,!those!would!be!
the!first!guys!I’d!think!of.!My!influences!for!orchestration,!form,!and!all!the!trappings!
of!writing!came!not!just!from!jazz!musicians,!but!everything!I!was!exposed!to,!from!
orchestras,!small!groups,!pop!groups.!I!loved!the!Beatles,!Jimi!Hendrix,!and!Led!
Zeppelin,!and!got!as!much!out!of!them!as!I!could!from!other!influences.!
JS:!I!should!say!that!your!first!three!influences!were!also!kind!of!a!trinity!for!me.!
RS:!Yeah,!they’re!tremendous.!And!we’re!not!just!talking!about!their!orchestration!
or!the!way!they!write!for!big!band,!but!their!soul,!their!music,!was!just!dynamite.!
JS:!What!kinds!of!things!do!you!see!in!the!future!of!the!ensemble?!Or!what!are!some!
things!you’d!like!to!see?!
RS:!Just!like!anything!else,!I’d!like!to!see!that!it!continues!to!grow,!that!things!don’t!
stagnate,!that!they!don’t!become!part!of!this!stagnation!of!creativity!that’s!prevalent!
throughout!the!world!at!the!moment.!I’m!not!just!talking!about!music,!but!other!art!
forms!as!well,!and!it!even!reaches!out!into!the!business!world,!the!political!world,!
and!all!kinds!of!things.!I!would!hope!that!not!just!jazz!music,!but!all!of!us!could!grow.!
As!far!as!this!genre!is!concerned,!there!are!certainly!a!lot!of!problems!with!keeping!
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large!ensembles!going,!one!of!which!is!just!simply!being!able!to!promote!yourself!by!
touring!and!going!around!the!country.!At!the!same!time!while!I’m!saying!that,!I’m!
looking!around!and!I’m!seeing!all!kinds!of!large!ensembles!going!around!and!touring!
still,!so!there’s!still!a!healthy!demand!for!what’s!happening.!What!I!would!like!to!see!
is!that!continue,!along!with!the!music!still!being!creative,!and!still!growing,!and!still!
morphing!into!whatever!it’s!going!to!morph!into.!Probably!more!than!anything,!I!
think!what!I’d!like!to!see!is!a!natural!continuation!of!the!process!from!one!
generation!of!different!styles!of!writers!into!the!next,!meaning!the!future!writers!
will!still!get!their!influence!from!what!occurred!in!the!past,!and!be!able!to!sort!that!
out!for!themselves!and!bring!their!own!style!into!it.!
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Julian!Tanaka!
Email!Interview!
August!1,!2015!
Julian(Tanaka(is(a(saxophonist(and(clarinetist(residing(in(Las(Vegas,(Nevada.(Tanaka(
has(written(music(for(jazz(combo,(big(band,(and(wind(orchestra,(and(studied(jazz(
writing(at(the(Eastman(School(of(Music.(
JS:!When!did!you!get!started!in!music?!
JT:!I!got!started!in!music!the!summer!before!I!started!middle!school.!My!
grandmother!gave!me!her!rosewood!clarinet.!!
JS:!What!sparked!your!interest!in!big!band?!And!tell!me!about!your!experiences!
writing!for!the!ensemble.!
JT:!In!high!school,!I!was!initially!not!interested!in!anything!related!to!big!bands.!
Compared!to!the!freedoms!one!has!interacting!with!a!small!group,!playing!in!big!
band!seemed!like!a!chore.!Plus,!most!of!the!music!for!big!band!is!unmemorable!
and/or!is!complete!garbage.!Nevertheless,!I!had!heard!some!incredible!recordings!of!
Don!Ellis!Orchestra(Live!at!Monterey),!Duke!Ellington(Black,!Brown,!and!Beige,!
Three!Suites),!and!Gil!Evans(Sketches!of!Spain,!Svengali,!Plays!the!Music!of!Jimi!
Hendrix)!which!really!peaked!my!interest!in!the!writing!aspect.!!
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I!spent!the!entire!summer!before!senior!year!writing!my!first!big!band!chart!(with!
some!encouragement!from!my!theory/piano!teacher,!Bob!Hughes)!by!hand.!I!
immediately!brought!the!finished!score!and!parts!to!my!high!school!big!band!
director,!Pat!Bowen,!the!first!week!of!school.!I!was!so!fucking!excited.!We!started!to!
read!through!the!chart!at!a!rehearsal,!but!he!bailed!on!it!by!the!2!or!3!minute!mark.!
The!handwritten!parts!stayed!in!our!folders!for!the!remainder!of!the!year,!but!we!
never!once!took!a!look!at!it!again.!I!didn't!even!get!all!of!my!parts!back!at!the!end.!
(Ironically,!I!have!completed!several!commissions!now!from!Pat!for!the!LVA!big!
band.)!
Looking!back!at!my!score!a!little!bit,!I!see!that!there!are!many,!many,!many!flaws.!I!
also!don't!think!it!helped!that!the!title,!"NEMSBUR",!was!an!anagram!for!both!
"NUMBERS"(intended)!and!"RUBSMEN"(unintended).!Yet,!I!am!still!incredibly!
proud!of!this!accomplishment.!I!realized!two!things:!1.!I!love!writing!for!big!band;!2.!
Writing!for!big!band!is!tedious.!!
I!halted!any!more!attempts!at!big!band!writing!for!a!good!few!years.!Then,!I!needed!
some!arranging!credit!to!fulfill!my!requirements!as!a!jazz!performance!at!UNLV.!I!
didn't!want!to!take!the!8am!class!for!reasons!obvious!to!music!majors,!so!I!asked!Joe!
Lano!if!I!could!take!the!class!as!an!independent!study!course.!He!was!more!than!
willing!to!help!me!out.!Studying!with!Joe!was!so!exciting!for!me!that!I!decided!to!
take!big!band!writing!seriously!again.!!
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What!I!truly!love!about!Joe!is!that!he!is!the!shit!but!doesn't!give!a!fuck!if!anyone!else!
knows!or!cares!about!it.!If!they!want!to!know,!all!they!have!to!is!listen!to!him!play!or!
hear!his!compositions.!He!was!and!still!is!so!underrated!as!a!true!artist,!especially!at!
UNLV.!I'm!convinced!people!mainly!knew!him!as!the!leader!of!the!guitar!ensemble.!I!
was!fortunate!enough!to!be!able!to!study!arranging!with!him!for!a!few!years.!He!
taught!me!the!fundamentals!of!harmony!and!instrumentation!in!big!band!writing.!
He!left!the!style!and!personality!of!the!chart!up!to!me.!There!was!something!about!
how!it!felt!going!through!a!short!lesson!without!having!any!work!to!show!for!the!
previous!week!and!then!being!offered!coffee!and!a!cookie!that!just!made!you!feel!
like!absolute!shit.!However,!if!I!did!my!work,!it!was!a!delightfully!long!and!satisfying!
experience.!!
My!current!writing!teacher!at!Eastman,!Bill!Dobbins,!is!similar!to!Joe!in!that!I!only!
get!what!I!put!into!it.!However,!Bill!is!way!more!hands!on!in!some!ways.!He!will!tell!
me!exactly!what!he!doesn't!like!and!why!it!isn't!"convincing".!He!is!meticulous,!often!
taking!up!a!whole!hour!lesson!editing!a!few!pages!of!a!score.!But!that!is!exactly!why!
I!love!studying!with!him.!No!bullshit.!He!tells!me!what!works!and!what!doesn't!
work.!I'm!not!there!to!write!cool!music,!I'm!there!to!write!music.!!
I!also!gain!a!shit!load!from!just!sharing!scores!and!ideas!with!fellow!composers!like!
Nate!Kimball.!
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(Sorry!I!am!writing!so!much!about!my!experiences!with!my!teachers.!I!find!that!the!
process!of!writing!tends!to!make!as!much!of!an!impact!to!me!as!the!performance.!
Speaking!of!which,!the!sound!that!happens!in!my!head!as!I!write!never!matches!the!
sound!that!comes!out!of!other!people.!Hahahaha.)!
What!it!comes!down!to!for!me!is!I!want!to!write!something!that!sounds!good.!I!don't!
care!much!about!the!extramusical!elements.!The!audience!can!and!will!take!care!of!
that.!!
apprenticeship!still!possible!within!the!academic!setting?!And!what!effects!do!you!
think!the!university!has!had!on!the!music?!
JT:!No,!there!will!never!be!anything!in!the!university!system!that!will!take!the!place!
of!a!real!music!apprenticeship.!One!can!find!a!mentor!within!the!university!system;!
however,!the!real!lessons!on!life!and!playing!music!can!only!be!learned!outside!the!
limitations!of!academia.!I!was!lucky!enough!to!have!had!Joe!as!a!mentor!at!UNLV.!My!
lessons!were!at!his!house.!Barely!felt!like!school.!Also,!playing!in!kicks!bands!at!Jim!
Hemming's!house!was!a!sort!of!internship.!I!got!my!feet!wet!in!playing!charts!by!
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great!writers!like!Billy!Byers,!Bill!Holman,!Bob!Florence,!etc.!Plus,!those!old!
motherfuckers!swing!differently.!People!get!caught!up!in!the!fact!that!they!drag.!
Well,!fuck!you!if!you!would!rather!play!these!charts!with!the!young,!academic!
musicians!than!the!older!cats!who!actually!played!in!the!bands!that!performed!these!
charts!on!the!road!(the!true!meaning!of!the!term!is!way!out!of!the!reach!of!anybody!
in!school!right!now,!including!myself).!!
One!of!the!major!negative!effects!university!has!had!on!big!band!music!is!that!the!
pragmatism!of!the!music!is!lost.!Ellington's!music!has!that!radiance!and!natural!
vibration!because!he!wrote!shit!that!was!playable.!It!seems!that!a!fair!a!lot!of!
academic!writers!don't!think!about!that!too!much.!It!is!up!to!the!player!to!make!the!
composition!sparkle.!That's!not!to!say!that!hard!music!is!bad.!It's!just!that!there!
aren't!tremendous!consequences!for!writing!bad!music!in!college.!Back!in!the!day,!
you!wrote!a!shitty!chart!and!you!were!fired!or!the!players!in!your!band!could!find!
some!other!band!to!play!in.!Today,!you!get!a!college!degree!in!jazz!composition.!
Also,!The!university!system!makes!jazz!far!less!accessible!as!a!career!choice!to!
certain!people.!It!is!near!impossible!to!make!a!living!just!playing!jazz!these!days.!
Attending!a!university!as!a!jazz!major!not!only!provides!students!with!a!possibility!
of!graduating!with!a!degree,!thus!increasing!the!potential!for!getting!a!teaching!gig;!
it!also!is!a!place!where!one!will!make!connections!with!other!musicians.!I!am!not!
qualified!to!analyze!how!and!why!a!lot!of!people!get!shafted!the!opportunity!to!
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attend!college!(especially!the!"conservatories").!All!I!know!is!that!almost!all!jazz!
majors!I!have!ever!met!have!been!wellitoido!white!people.!!
That!being!said,!I!think!that!university!is!still!a!good!place!to!learn!fundamentals!and!
flesh!out!creative!ideas.!I!loved!how!Bruce!Paulson!would!bring!in!those!Tonight!
Show,!Buddy!Rich,!and!Rob!McConnell!charts!to!the!big!band!rehearsals!at!UNLV.!At!
the!same!time,!you!can!rehearse!and!read!original!arrangements!and!compositions!
without!having!to!pay!the!musicians!for!their!focused!attention!and!effort.!!
JT:!I!am!always!up!for!a!good!mix.!I!absolutely!love!Gil!Evans.!He!was!able!to!do!his!
own!thing!while!still!paying!homage!to!his!predecessors.!His!arrangements!of!“King!
Porter!Stomp”!are!smoking.!Duke!took!this!a!step!further.!He!created!his!own!
standards!and!kept!refreshing!them!throughout!his!lifetime.!I!just!heard!the!1950!
recording!of!“Mood!Indigo”!from!Masterpieces!by!Ellington.!Holy.!Fucking.!Shit…!
Brookmeyer!is!also!in!that!category!of!a!true!artist!with!roots.!With!these!cats,!the!
music!is!never!bogged!down!with!innovation!nor!preservation.!It’s!just!good!music.!
Their!music!reflects!the!past,!present,!and!future!without!the!pretense!of!holding!the!
key!to!“keeping!the!music!alive”.!!
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I!do!think,!however,!that!university!is!a!prime!place!for!compartmentalization.!
Focused!rehearsal!and!study!in!Basieicentric!music!and!new!works,!a!couple!of!
semesters!a!piece,!are!great.!The!problem!with!a!lot!of!universities,!though,!is!that!
they!are!lopsided.!There!is!not!enough!of!a!balance!within!the!faculty!of!new!and!old.!
Not!to!mention,!there!are!plenty!of!people!teaching!jazz!that!have!no!idea!what!the!
fuck!they!are!talking!about!and!don’t!make!an!effort!to!surround!themselves!with!
people!that!do.!!
JS:!What!are!your!thoughts!on!the!expanded!instrumentation!and!musical!styles!
often!employed!by!contemporary!big!bands?!Are!there!some!instruments!(such!as!
distorted!electric!guitar!and!electronic!instruments/effects)!that!you!feel!should!not!
be!included?!Or!does!the!addition!of!these!new!elements!serve!to!expand!the!appeal!
of!the!ensemble?!
JT:!Expanded!instrumentation!is!wonderful.!It’s!funny!how!standard!big!band!
instrumentation!came!about,!considering!that!big!bands!back!in!the!day!had!such!
varied!instrumentation.!Some!had!vibes,!some!had!3!trombones,!one!had!
trombones,!french!horns,!and!mellophones.!Don!Ellis!used!pocket!trumpet,!organ,!
and!three!basses!for!fuck!sake.!Musical!styles!ranged!from!boogieiwoogie!to!Kansas!
City!swing!to!bebop!to!fusion!and!beyond!(preferred!order!and!stopping!point!for!a!
majority!of!jazz!history!textbooks.!Haha.)!
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It!does!not!really!matter!to!me!how!unique!or!standard!the!instrumentation!or!style!
is.!I!am!more!interested!in!how!it!sounds.!Is!it!well!written!(for!the!instruments)?!
Are!the!performers!listening!to!each!other?!Do!I!like!the!character!of!the!ensemble?!
Does!the!ensemble!even!have!character?!
That!being!said,!there!is!tremendous!potential!in!expanded!instrumentation!and!
musical!styles!within!big!band!writing.!
JT:!I!see!big!band!as!remaining!where!it!is!for!a!while.!Primarily,!performed!in!
secondary!and!higher!educational!institutions;!secondarily,!featured!in!media!to!
provide!nostalgia;!lastly,!as!an!art!form.!I!hope!that!things!will!change!and!schools!
will!take!the!focus!off!of!playing!perfect!jazz.!(That!can!be!said!about!classical!music!
too.)!The!media!situation!has!been!fucked!for!a!while.!Don’t!think!that’s!going!to!
change!anytime!soon.!The!good!thing!is!that!nothing!is!going!to!kill!jazz!and!music!as!
a!whole,!for!that!matter.!Music!is!way!stronger!than!the!human!race!and!the!
destruction!we!cause.!!
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310!
Frank!Vaganée!
Email!Interview!
July!16,!2015!
Frank(Vaganée(is(a(Belgian(composer(and(saxophonist.(He(is(one(of(the(founders(and(
current(leader(of(the(Brussels(Jazz(Orchestra,(the(house(orchestra(of(Brussels(since(
1999.(
JS:!What!made!you!decide!to!start!a!big!band?!And!how!has!the!experience!been!in!
FV:!We!started!the![Brussels!Jazz!Orchestra]!in!1993.!At!that!time!there!were!no!
professional!big!bands!around!in!Belgium.!Our!generation!wanted!to!have!the!
opportunity!to!play!in!a!good!big!band!so!we!founded!one!ourselves.!It!wasn’t!a!
problem!finding!the!right!and!interested!musicians!to!form!the!orchestra.!During!the!
first!two,!three!years!we!played!every!month!and!later!on!every!two!weeks!at!a!jazz!
club!in!Brussels,!“the!Sounds”.!You!could!see!it!as!public!rehearsals.!After!a!few!
years!we!could!play!our!first!concerts!outside!the!club,!mainly!in!cultural!houses!and!
small!theaters.!To!fund!these!concerts!we!applied!for!the!first!time!for!subsidies!
from!the!Flemish!government.!From!1999!on,!we!got!subsidies!to!work!in!a!
structural!way.!That!money!could!help!us!to!professionalize!not!only!on!the!artistic!
level!but!also!business!wise.!Since!that!time!the!amount!of!projects!and!concerts!is!
growing.!Since!more!than!a!decade,!the!BJO!has!an!average!of!35!to!40!concerts!a!
year!besides!CD!recordings!and!all!kinds!of!!pedagogical!projects.!Besides!the!
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311!
musicians,!most!of!the!time!16,!sometimes!depending!on!the!program!more,!we!
have!three!people!working!at!the!office!of!the!BJO.!
JS:!Many!of!your!big!band!compositions!incorporate!both!complex!harmonies!and!a!
strong!swing!feeling.!There!appears!to!be!a!trend!in!contemporary!big!band!music!to!
focus!on!increasingly!complex!harmonies!and!textures!while!neglecting!the!swing!
feeling,!both!in!terms!of!the!eighth!note!interpretation!and!the!sense!of!rhythmic!
vitality.!Do!you!think!this!rhythmic!energy!is!an!essential!ingredient!in!large!
ensemble!jazz?!
FV:!I!only!can!speak!for!myself.!There!are!lots!of!ideas!about!what’s!important!in!
music!in!general.!Because!of!the!typical!orchestral!set!up!of!a!jazz!orchestra,!a!
composer/arranger!has!a!lot!of!possibilities!in!order!to!orchestrate.!Lots!of!
instruments,!doublings!in!the!reed!section,!acoustic!or!electric!rhythm!section,!etc…!
But!for!the!BJO!one!of!the!most!important!aspects!of!playing!our!music!is!the!
rhythmic!aspect.!Even!with!complex!harmonies,!putting!these!notes!in!a!correct!
rhythmic!pulse!gives!the!music!energy!and!most!of!the!time!a!forward!motion.!When!
there!is!a!lack!of!some!kind!of!pulse,!the!result!will!be!blurry,!dragging,!not!very!
inspiring!for!a!soloist!to!play!on!top!of!it.!
band!charts?!Should!performances!of!older!music!be!limited!to!university!and!
school!bands?!
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312!
FV:!No,!certainly!not.!Anyone!who!wants!to!play!these!classic!charts!needs!to!do!
that.!And!certainly!in!schools,!where!students!by!playing!these!charts,!get!to!know!
and!understand!how!to!act!in!a!big!band.!If!they!can,!it!will!help!them!to!play!
contemporary!big!band!music!in!a!good!way.!
JS:!What!are!your!thoughts!on!expanded!instrumentation?!Are!there!some!
instruments!(such!as!distorted!electric!guitar!and!electronic!instruments/effects)!
that!you!feel!should!not!be!included?!Or!does!the!addition!of!these!new!elements!
serve!to!expand!the!appeal!of!the!ensemble?!
FV:!I!think!in!contemporary!jazz!music,!every!kind!of!creativity!in!expanding!
instrumentation!can!be!valuable.!As!long!as!the!creativity!serves!the!musical!value.!
FV:!I’m!convinced!big!bands!will!survive!through!the!years.!
The!thing!that!we!experience!is!the!fact!that!whenever!you!want!to!play!more!than!a!
few!concerts!each!year,!you!have!to!look!for!an!original!approach!to!bring!jazz!music!
to!a!wider!audience.!Combinations!with!other!art!forms!is!one!of!the!tools!we!use!to!
reach!a!broader!public.!!
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313!
And!we!try!to!get!connected!with!our!public!by!organizing!different!projects:!
We!have!our!"International!Composition!Contest"!–!The!BJO!International!
Composition!Contest!is!one!of!the!few!international!competitions!for!jazz!
composition,!and!more!specifically!compositions!for!a!big!band!formation.!The!
Brussels!Jazz!Orchestra!feels!it!is!important!to!discover!and!encourage!young!talent.!
The!BJO!keeps!up!with!the!winners!through!their!careers!and!can!commission!them!
to!write!new!works!for!the!orchestra.!The!winner!is!elected!by!an!international!jury!
and!takes!home!the!Duvel!Jazz!Award!worth!3000!euros.!
We!have!the!"Brussels!Youth!Jazz!Orchestra"!–!Every!three!years,!following!
auditions,!17!promising!young!jazz!musicians!are!selected!to!form!an!exclusive!jazz!
orchestra.!The!BYJO!builds!an!extensive!repertoire!over!three!years!under!the!
artistic!direction!of!BJO.!Twice!a!year!an!intensive!weekilong!project!will!be!led!by!a!
guest!conductor.!
Furthermore,!the!BJO!organizes!workshops,!where!amateur!musicians!can!enjoy!a!
few!hours!of!big!band!lessons!in!a!professional!context.!The!BJO!opens!the!doors!of!
its!rehearsal!studio!for!art!schools!and!their!jazz!departments:!students!can!take!a!
look!behind!the!scenes!and!experience!how!the!creative!process!and!the!
preparations!for!an!artistic!project!evolve.!

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CONTEMPORARY+BIG+BAND+MUSIC+

Ensemble!name! 2013! 2003! 1993!

BUDDY RICH REMEMBERED By John La Barbera

of the "World's Greatest Drummer."

kids got off easy, to say the least.

one of my more memorable lessons.

Bennett. That in itself could be a mini-series but I'll concentrate on Buddy.

phenomenal combination and Buddy's reputation (as a bandleader) blossomed. Every

during this segment of the show.

with the crowd.

say attempted) by just about every big band drummer I know.

because Buddy couldn't read music) "pick it up before the break."

Sinatra's favorite eatery since the late 40's).

ever received from him.

those on the receiving end on that tape.

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