[QUOTE=desertscout;6928293]There are many former Masons who have had to repent of the pagan rituals that they

partook in when they were active Masons. Since they now believe that Freemasonry is Satanic and pagan, and they are now
also Christians, then their testimony counters yours. I'm not qualified to judge anyone's standing in the Kingdom, but I do
recognize when someone attempts to defend a non-Biblical practice (like Mormons and Masons). Silliness is a good way to
describe the symbols of Masonry, unless you are a pagan, Satanist, Wiccan, or some other type of believer in paganism or
the occult. We witness that all kinds of pagan symbols and even some pagan rites have crept into what some people would
call "orthodox Christianity." However, you still have avoided explaining how any of the past teachings of Freemasonry's
alleged greatest philosophers have aligned with the teachings of the Messiah. If you would be honest, then you would have
to admit that they have absolutely nothing to do with the economy of the Kingdom of God.[/quote]

How many and what kind of “Masons” were they? You do realize that there is no copyright on the words “Mason”,
“Freemason”, “Masonry” and “Freemasonry”, don't you? I'm well aware that certain long defunct groups that called
themselves “Masons”, but who were never recognized as such by regular Masons had some different practices. None of
these apply to any of the “Christian” antimasons who were known at one time to members of regular Freemasonry. In those
cases, each of them have proven to be bearers of false witness and often enough, scam artists.

What makes you think regular Freemasonry is a non-Biblical practice? Beyond the standard of if it makes a believer
uncomfortable, then the believer should refrain.

Many of the symbols have Biblical and/or Christian interpretations, just as many other symbols, pagan and otherwise. In a
nutshell, the meaning of a symbol depends on the meaning an individual invests in it. After all, the most recognizable and
accepted symbol of Christianity, the cross, has pagan/occult meanings. Claiming that certain symbols have certain objective
meanings without a context for them represents the only silliness about them.

Philosophy is not religion. Writings of philosophers are not holy writ of any sort, but the opinions of the writers. Your
favorite quote comes from a person who was NOT a Freemason at the time he wrote it, which by the conspiracy theory
ignorance (you have to be “higher degrees” to “really understand” the “true meanings”) means that the quote is irrelevant.
Even without that lie, the burden of proof rests upon antimasons who claim to be Christian that any of these writings serve
the same function and authority for a Freemason as the Bible does for a Christian. If one cannot prove this connection, then
one merely weaves a tangled web.

[QUOTE]You are correct, this is not the forum for discussing the mystery religion of Freemasonry. You came here of your
own volition. Since I was a Mormon that went to one of their temples in 1976, and since I participated in stolen forms of the
blue lodge rites in the Mormon temple; then I have a modicum of experience with the decadent Masonic symbols employed
therein. [/quote]

The “mystery religion of Freemasonry” would count as one of those groups that is not recognized by regular Masons since
regular Freemasonry is not a religion.

How do these compare to those found in Duncan's Ritual? Or do you have a copy of the Mormon rituals? I'll be happy to
tell you if they are even close to those in a Masonic lodge. Otherwise, your claim is spurious.

So, “decadent Masonic symbols” inside a Mormon temple...are the meanings supposed to be the same or have they been
altered to fit Joseph Smith's religion? Alternatively, are the meaning supposed to be something fairly generic and irrelevant?
How do they compare to any [u]suggested[/u] Masonic meanings?

[QUOTE]All of the Mormon signs, tokens, and penalties were demonic in origin, and their origin was from Freemasonry.
[/quote]

Really? So, the fact that the symbol of a Babylonian deity, also used for multiple other pagan meanings, that now stands as
the primary Christian symbol means what?

Note that I'm not arguing the demonic origin of Mormonism, but unless one has something other that Joseph Smith stealing
stuff, reworking it, filing off the serial numbers and calling it part of Mormonism, then one has to a bit more than applying
the bit of false logic to the cause and effect there. Especially since it has only been relatively recently that Mormons could
become Masons, something which IIRC, was an issue with both sides because Joseph Smith was violating his Masonic
obligation.
[QUOTE]As Manly Palmer Hall, one of Freemasonry's most respected philosophers put it:

The Lost Keys of Freemasonry; p. 48.

When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the application of the dynamic of living power, he has
learned the mystery of his craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands [emphasis mine] and before he may step
onward and upward, he must prove the ability to properly apply energy.” [/quote]

Correction, one of [i]Anti-[/i]Freemasonry that claims to be Christian's most respected philosophers, most Masons have not
only never read the book written by a non-Mason (at that time and for decades after), but only encountered Mr. Hall's name
because of some antimason who claims to be Christian bearing false witness. Again, one must prove the authority issue
before it is anything other than one non-Mason's opinion.

[QUOTE]So, it's nice that you can ignore this explanation of Freemasonry and call it silliness, but to many it was obviously
a deadly serious teaching. [/quote] To many? Who? The only people I have ever heard consider it a “deadly serious
teaching” are....<drumroll>....antimasons who claim to be Christian. Let me ask it this way: What regular Grand Lodge or
appendant body teaches this quote? Any of them? Hint: Not a single one I've ever heard of or attended.

[QUOTE]So, once again; please show us what if any of the previous quotes that I cited agree with what you deem to be
"orthodox Christianity," because the occult world is laughing your types of apologists to scorn. [/quote]

Really? I'd think they'd be laughing at the ones following the false teachings of antimasons who claim to be Christian who
dig up quotes that aren't relevant and put them forth as articles of faith for their religious beliefs.

However, since the quotes are not required to be read, believed or even have any authority over any regular Freemason with
regards to his religious beliefs, then how are they relevant except as conspiracy theory FUD?

[QUOTE]The "Grand Architect of the Universe" is not Adonai according to numerous Masonic authors, and developing the
"Christos" consciousness does not glorify Yeshua/Jesus, but only considers Jesus to have received His Christ consciousness,
and not to have been the One and Only Christ or the only person to have been able to do so. IMO, That's a slap in the face of
the same Holy God that you claim to worship, no? [/quote]

Which ones? Are their writings authoritative to a Freemason as the Bible is for a Christian? If not, then this is just
opinions, not facts. I'll note that the claptrap after the words “Masonic authors,” has nothing at all to do with Freemasonry
or even the standard antimasonry that claims to be Christian.

It is only a “slap in the face” if I deny that God is the Creator. See John 1:1-3. The only “slap in the face” around here
would be those that deny Christ by denying Him as the Creator, which is all that Great (Grand/Supreme) Architect of the
Universe means, a fancy title for the Creator.

[QUOTE]So, if everyone can just make it up as they go along in Freemasonry; who cares about what, or if, any core
doctrines that it teaches have any merit? It's really all superfluous then, isn't it?[/QUOTE]Actually, antimasons just blather
on about stuff like this which isn't really relevant to a Mason because they aren't anything Freemasonry teaches. All this
religious claptrap (falsely) claimed by antimasons to be in Freemasonry are only “core doctrines of Freemasonry” only
according to the guys who are trying to sell their falsehoods or their followers they have deceived.

[QUOTE=desertscout;6957810]Hall and pike are included in many of the suggested reading lists of the monitors of
different states, are they not?[/QUOTE] Monitors may or may not have reading lists. I just looked at three I have on hand
from different Grand Lodges and they don't have any recommended reading lists. I'm not sure what to tell you...except that
I have definitely noted that whatever particular author that an antimason who claims to be Christian is pushing that
particular author gets “appointed” as a big deal according some Masonic authority or another, despite the work not being
authoritative or “holy writ”, but that gets ignored since it inconveniently destroys the antimason agenda.

The problem one has...even if they are on a “recommended reading list”, it isn't a requirement to read. It is like saying the
Bible is on a “recommended reading list” for Christians (which I don't), it means that the work is not authoritative...and in
my experience, antimasons who claim to be Christian consider the Bible to be only “recommended” unless it fits their belief
system. Note that my reply using Scripture was not responded to Scripturally, but with other methods to discredit anything
disagreeing with antimasonic beliefs.
[QUOTE] It is Masonic sources that cite them as reliable sources for the Scottish Rite and Royal Arch Freemasonry, whose
symbols go back before the foundation of this country. [/QUOTE] Which has existed about a tenth (tithe) of the time since
Christ, so your history isn't so long. Many of the symbols are even more ancient (with varying interpretations), just as the
primary Christian symbol predates Christianity. Several of the symbols used in Freemasonry can be assumed to have a
Scriptural basis with the same meaning more or less. So, it appears one finds oneself in the positions of calling things from
Scripture as demonic. Interesting set of beliefs one has, isn't it?

How many and which symbols date back how far would be variable. There are a great many symbols, but considering the
changes in Freemasonry over the past three centuries, including since the founding of the USA, I seriously doubt that you
can support that contention.

[QUOTE]You still haven't really addressed the issues that I raised citing more than these two authors and how they fit in
with Masonry. How are any Masonic rites and practices sanctioned by the Messiah? You don't have to go to another thread
to deal with what Jesus/Yeshua would teach about such egregious and Satanic symbolism. You, like many Mormons on this
sub-forum, are simply attempting to justify your personal lifestyle, without comparing it to biblical principles. I get that, but
like the Mormon temple rites, I will never agree with the use of them in any way.[/quote]

What issues? If these authors had written books that were “holy writ” instead of maybe on a “recommended reading list”,
there might be an issue. One reason why it isn't one, you make a big deal about Pike, but [u]Morals & Dogma[/u], besides
having in the preface, the statement that guts every claim by antimasons who claim to be Christian, also would only “apply”
to members of the Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction, which only makes up part of the USA. At best, Pike's work would
cover ~5% of Freemasons in the USA and would be irrelevant to the rest, who are not members. Of course, that is leaving
out the fact that it is 100% optional. The quote by the non-Mason, well, I've already covered that. So, you are requiring me
to defend, like some kind of “holy writ” that all Masons must believe in, some stuff that individuals wrote that is their own
personal opinion? It is especially amusing since I have read some of this stuff because that is honest scholarship, but your
claims show that not only have you not read any of it, but that your “knowledge” is informed by other people's
interpretations that are often based on out of context or outright altered versions of the texts. I've noted this issue repeatedly
in the Character Counts thread.

Is Freemasonry sanctioned in Scriptures by the Messiah? About as much and probably a great deal more than posting on
internet forums.

BTW, I compared it to Biblical principles as I noted in the original thread. I did so by actually comparing source documents
and checking out the “facts” that form the basis of the antimasonic belief system, instead of uncritically accepting all the
gossipmongers hiding in the corners talking about conspiracy theories.

[QUOTE]I am not an ex-Mason, so I will let ex-Masons post on your forum. I am an ex-Mormon who took part in some
Luciferian, Masonically inspired, and evil oaths in a Mormon temple. Duncan's Monitor revealed their counterpart in
Masonry. This Messianic believer was led out of the degrading practices of the Mormon temple, and I am only addressing
the degrading and decadent rites of Freemasonry that have been included in the Mormon temple rites. IMO, both you and
Mormons share a similar delusion about the real role of mystery religions, especially as relating to these last days. I could
care less, other than to point out the non-Christian symbols and rites that overlap between the two aberrant styles of 'secret
and sacred' practices.[/QUOTE]

You haven't pointed them out, you have just claimed them, despite not being a Freemason. So I'll ask again, do you have an
authenticated copy of the Mormon rituals? Or you could give me the link to one. I'll be happy to compare the two and let
you know the results. Quite frankly, what I've been told was that there were multiple differences between the meanings
taught in the two and since that wasn't from an antimason on the Internet, I'll trust that a bit more, but feel free to educate
me, as long as it isn't through your personal authority.

Quite frankly, every antimason who claims to be Christian who dares discuss Scripture on the subject of Freemasonry has
ended up denying Christ, denying the authority of Scripture, claiming the power of God for themselves, or more than one
each.

[QUOTE=desertscout;6896812]I an an xMormon that partook in their Satanic temple rites when the blood oaths were in
effect (pre-1990), but I believe that the Freemasons discontinued them about two years prior to the Mormons. God led me
out of the cult, but their most sacred places are their temples which are infused with emblems of Freemasonry. The heart of
the temple endowment started earlier, according to the Mormon source that I cited above, and blossomed into something
similar to what it is at this point in time. My first reply to Magdalena (another xMormon) was a mistyping of the first
response, so I don't know why you listed them both. [/quote]

The “blood oaths” in Masonry aren't what antimasons who claim to be Christian make them out to be, the fallacy is
argument by outrage (a symptom of FUD). BTW, as a Mason who joined a Grand Lodge where the wording of the
obligation was changed to omit the ancient oaths (which are a bit old fashioned), there is no credit on that account by
antimasons that I'm aware of.

What it boils down to, yet again, you were a Mormon who participated in Mormon rituals. You are aware that some of the
symbolism in Mormonism was lifted from Freemasonry and altered to fit Joseph Smith's religion. You have not been a
Mason, but you claim that Freemasonry has some kind of “satanic” conspiracy links to Mormonism.

[QUOTE]To answer to your question about a Christian being a Mason was addressed by both Pike and Hall. Pike didn't
agree that a Mason could be a member of any other religion, because Freemasonry fulfilled that role (a two masters
scenario), however, Hall disagreed and was of the opinion that a Mason could belong to any other religion, just so they were
'loyal' to Masonry. The real question would be, can a Christian be a Mason? The adepts in the 32nd and 33rd degrees would
consider the blue lodge members to be unenlightened, and not privy to the secrets of the higher levels until they attained
levels higher than a Master Mason. I see that you left off the LeVey quote, and his take on the mystery religions, which
included Freemasonry.[/quote]

Cite your source on Pike and I'll be glad to show where the quote has been fabricated or altered because that is false. You
could give the citation on Hall, I might be able to find a copy of his book in the local public library because it seems for
such an “important” author, he doesn't seem to be represented in the Scottish Rite library.

Nice of you to repeat the standard antimasonic claim about degrees which is based on the forgeries of Taxil, but about
“adepts” considering blue lodge members to be “unenlightened”... it shows a massive amount of ignorance about
Freemasonry and reliance on made up stuff from people who want to sell something that isn't true.

LaVey wasn't a Mason, promotes himself as a Satanist, you say you are a Christian and you claim to trust LaVey's word.
Seriously, what is wrong with that picture? It seems antimasons who claim to be Christian have no trouble getting their
“truth” from Satanists.

Oh, BTW, LaVey: Not A Mason, Even Less A Valid Source Than The Other Irrelevant Sources.

[QUOTE]The FUD you speak about is an overreaction to just being aware, because a closer look at the Bible reveals a
hidden agenda and conspiracy against Adonai and His anointed from the beginning in the Garden. [/quote]

Cue Twilight Zone Music. BTW, this represents a gnostic sounding claim for special secret knowledge that adds to
Scripture or applies a special interpretation available for the “true believer” antimasons who claim to be Christian.

[QUOTE]So, if Masonry mixes symbols from all religions, including pagan and occult symbols, how does a Christian
justify being a part of that mystery religion? Does one simply deny what Satanists, Wiccans, Rosicrucians, Illuminists, and
other like minded groups use many of those symbols for in their rituals. They would all laugh at your opinion, because they
already laugh at many Christian churches for celebrating on their feast days. [/quote]

Given the fact that many of these symbols are also Christian ones, you kill your own point. Symbols mean what the
individual thinks they mean, which is why a cross is a Christian symbol to Christians (and much of the rest of the world)
and not a fertility symbol representing the “sky god” as he “fertilizes” the “earth goddess” (one interpretation).

Same thing for Christian holy days. Suggest you read Romans 14 and try to figure out your doctrinal error there.

BTW, how do you know they are all “laughing”? Personal research? Scientific? Or read it somewhere because it sure
sounds like something I've read that an antimason who claimed to be Christian wrote, although I don't think he went after
the holidays...

[QUOTE]To many of them it merely proves that their gods are stronger than the gods of those churches, because they don't
even have their own original holy days. Please tell us your opinion why many of the most powerful people from America
and other parts of the world will be at the Bohemian Grove this month performing another pagan ritual? [/quote]

Have the attendance list and audio/video of what is going on there? Pictures? Anything?

[QUOTE]Is that real, or just another unfounded conspiracy theory?[/QUOTE]

It is a fun story, but since I have actual personal knowledge of at least one internet conspiracy theory with the exact same
trappings of all the rest and the internet goonies have it all twisted up in FUD, I'll let you guess. Nope, not even going to
sniff that koolaid.

[QUOTE]One last question; why did the guy that responded just your post accuse you of plagiarism? I cited my sources
above and they can be checked out in any decent sized Masonic lodge library for accuracy. Check out the books for
yourself.[/QUOTE] I'm fairly sure I linked to it, but you can research it here.

As to his motivation, to me, it is obvious, but due to certain issue in a certain venue, I'm not allowed to call a spade a spade,
even when I have ironclad proof it is a spade, straight from the horse's mouth as it were. So, I will not speculate openly
here.

[QUOTE=Catherine Aurelia;6898121]Masonry is not of God. [/QUOTE]

According to you? You haven't made your case yet, just a pronouncement based on nothing more than your assertion. As
we can see below, your “justifications” aren't valid.

[QUOTE]You Masons have another "god," named G.A.O.T.U. (Great/Grand Architect of the Universe).[/QUOTE]

You even spell out the acronym that proves that there is no “masonic god” named “gaotu”, but proves that it is a title for the
Creator. For a Christian, Christ is the Great Architect (from John 1) and the term Great Architect was first used as a
Christian title for the Creator (Christ).

[QUOTE]Jesus Christ is not taught to be the Sole source of salvation, and in the more advanced degrees there is
concentration on pagan Egyptian gods.[/QUOTE]

Side note: If Freemasonry was a Christian organization, then the claims about not mentioning Jesus would have a valid
point. Since Freemasonry is a secular fraternity that merely recognizes that the creation proves a Creator, but does not judge
among special revelations, there is no reason for Freemasonry to give any deity of any religion any special place.

Well, given that Freemasonry gives no plan of salvation and commends each of its members to follow his own religion and
holy writings, this is false. The Egyptian thing is incorrect. IIRC, it appears In an antimasonic reprint of a ritual from a
defunct organization that was never recognized by regular Freemasonry (and joining the group would cause you to be
expelled from a regular lodge), which means it is irrelevant to the discussion. By all means, bring up some sources besides
your own authority if you want to.

[QUOTE] I know this, because my family was in the Masonic cult since, most likely, Colonial days. My great Uncle
was a Grand Master of a Lodge. I've read advanced books on Freemasonry and its feminine form, The Eastern Star
(my grandmother was high up in that group and another Masonic group for women). [/QUOTE]

Well, regular Freemasons aren't part of a “cult”. In fact, regular Freemasonry doesn't fit the traits of a cult in the list here on
CARM (found off front page) and, amusingly, antimasonry that claims to be Christian does fit a great number of the cult
traits...

Your great uncle's position isn't a regular one. Eastern Star isn't “feminine freemasonry”. Give your comments above, I
doubt any books you have read are really “advanced” or relevant to regular Freemasonry. However, list them and I'll
provide direct commentary on them, it is just rather hard to get specific with a blind elephat hurl of accusations without
support. I'll note that this kind of tactic is FUD and used by conspiracy theorists, cultists and anti-Bible Lite atheists.

[QUOTE]I have in my possession a Masonic book written in Masonic code (it has a beehive on it - another symbol
lifted by the Masons). I was encouraged when young to join the Rainbow girls (I did not). My father had a Masonic
funeral when he died (along with a religious one), which seemed to me very pagan. [/QUOTE]
Can you read this book? Usually there are dates, printing info, etc. that are not in cypher.

Either your father was not a regular Mason or you don't have a clue about what is pagan and what isn't. Given your
comment above, your family and the unnamed books in your possession aren't relevant to a regular Freemason...or you are
speaking from an unusual orifice.

[QUOTE]This is one thing that led me to studying Masonry, and eventually to seeing its ties with Mormonism - if
you know one, you'll see it in the other. You have your G.A.O.T.U., we have the True and Living God. Mormons have
their "heavenly father, Elohim, an "exalted" man". "Exalted" is a word used in Masonry to describe their
"masters." Mormonism and Masonry - both antichristian.[/QUOTE]

It is fairly obvious that you haven't studied much about regular Freemasonry at all, since the only “ties” remain that Joseph
Smith created his own religion, became a Freemason in a short form, stole a lot of ideas from Freemasonry, altered them to
fit his religion and then went about his business.

Sure, there is a square and compasses on Mormon underwear, but there are four additional “marks” that have nothing to do
with Freemasonry and the explanations given for the first two aren't the same as the one from Masonry. Note, two of these
“marks” quit being used after a later style change by the LDS.

Oh, “Exalted” being used to describe the master of a lodge...well, that isn't regular Freemasonry, so again, it Is obvious that
you are criticizing a group that merely used the name. It is like claiming Christians are suicidal because of Jim Jones'
group's actions.