01-07-2011 Transcript of Day17 Polygamy Reference Case

1
Submissions
1 January 7, 2011
2 Vancouver, B.C.
3
4 (DAY 17)
5 (PROCEEDINGS COMMENCED)
6
7 THE CLERK: Order in court. In the Supreme Court of
8 British Columbia at Vancouver on the 7th day of
9 January 2011, recalling the matter concerning the
10 constitutionality of section 293 of the Criminal
11 Code, My Lord.
12 THE COURT: Just before we get going, we have some
13 videos today I know, but I have to be in Ottawa
14 hopefully on January 24th for the day. If that
15 happened, would that throw things?
16 MR. JONES: I'm just going to get a copy of my
17 schedule, My Lord. Yeah, unfortunately Mr.
18 Wickett isn't here. He hasn't formally scheduled
19 any witnesses for that week, but that week is sort
20 of being reserved for him. I suspect it probably
21 wouldn't be arduous to change that week from the
22 25th to the 28th, as opposed to -- in other words,
23 to go through the Friday and take the Monday off.
24 THE COURT: Sorry, I have to be in Ottawa on the 24th.
25 MR. JONES: Right.
26 THE COURT: Oh, I see.
27 MR. JONES: So then we could go Tuesday to Friday that
28 week.
29 THE COURT: Right.
30 MR. JONES: But we can discuss that with Mr. Wickett.
31 I think we still have sufficient flexibility in
32 that week.
33 THE COURT: Can we do that on the break?
34 MR. JONES: Yes, we can.
35 THE COURT: Thank you. Because I have to confirm.
36 Thank you very much.
37 MS. ZALTZ: My Lord, we have approximately two hours
38 and 40 minutes worth of videos to play today.
39 What I was going to propose is that we start with
40 one that's one hour and 15 minutes and then
41 possibly take a break and follow that by another
42 one that's 35 minutes, and then there will be a
43 final one which is 46 minutes, which I was
44 thinking we could play after lunch, unless Your
45 Lordship would like to do that in a different
46 order.
47 THE COURT: That sounds very good. And whether we
2
Video evidence of Richard Beam
1 actually go to after lunch as opposed to trying to

2 push on. I'm trying to have a luncheon meeting,
3 so I think we may have to do it after lunch.
4 MS. ZALTZ: Okay. So the first one will be Richard
5 Ream and that's R-e-a-m and that will be followed
6 by Paula Barrett, and after lunch will be Jorjina
7 Broadbent.
8 THE COURT: Barrett with two ts?
9 MS. ZALTZ: 2 Rs and 2 Ts. And Jorjina is spelled
10 J-o-r-j-i-n-a.
11 THE COURT: Thank you. Okay.
12
13 (VIDEO PLAYED)
14
15 Q Hi, Richard. You're Richard Ream.
16 A Yeah, that's correct.
17 Q And I'm Karen Horsman. And we've
18 discussed that I'm a lawyer from the
19 Ministry of the Attorney General in
20 British Columbia, Canada. And we're
21 sitting in a law office in Salt Lake City
22 at the moment. And I've explained to you
23 that my colleagues and I are working on a
24 reference in the Canadian courts that
25 will decide the question of the polygamy
26 prohibition in our Criminal Code and
27 whether it's constitutional. And we've
28 been speaking to people that have had
29 experiences in polygamist communities
30 about their experiences, and you've
31 kindly agreed to talk about yours today.
32 A Yeah.
33 Q Does that sound about right? So, Rich,
34 why don't we start by having you explain
35 your family history, where you were born
36 and who your parents were.
37 A I was born in Magna, Utah in 1982. My
38 father is Howard Ream and my mother is
39 Bonnie Ream. However, my other mother is
40 Matina Bartel Ream, my mother Bonnie's
41 sister. I have 30 siblings for a total
42 of 31 children, counting myself.
43 Q And where were you born?
44 A In Magna, Utah, at home. I was delivered
45 by a private midwife who was hired by my
46 mother.
47 Q And so of the 30 siblings that you have,
3
1 Rich, how many are direct siblings, as in

2 children of your mother?
3 A 18. I have 18 full blooded siblings and
4 12 half siblings.
5 Q And can you explain what your living
6 situation was like in Magna, when you
7 were still living there?
8 A There was a -- my father had a home that
9 was three bedrooms on the main floor, and
10 in the basement there was one big common
11 area similar to a family room that served
12 as a utility area, a boiler room, there
13 was a furnace to heat the house, a full
14 fired furnace, and the washer-dryer area.
15 In order to accommodate all the
16 people we had living on the property he
17 brought in two campers, a cab-over camper
18 like would go on the bed of a pickup, as
19 well as a travel trailer. And at the
20 time I can remember, my earliest memories
21 are sleeping on the floor in that family
22 room or laundry room downstairs with
23 eight or ten other of my brothers and
24 sisters, and the older boys were out in
25 the campers. And three of the sisters in
26 the home had one of the bedrooms on the
27 main floor and then each of the wives had
28 one, and dad alternated between their
29 bedrooms for his lodging accommodation.
30 Q And your parents were members of what is
31 commonly referred to as the FLDS Church,
32 is that right?
33 A Yes, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus
34 Christ of Latter Day Saints.
35 Q And the area that you lived in in Magna
36 when you were born, was that an FLDS
37 community?
38 A No, absolutely not. It was just a
39 regular part of suburbia America, if you
40 will. We had mostly Mormons living
41 around us, well, granted, this was Utah.
42 And my older brothers and sisters who
43 were of school age were schooled in
44 public school. And we were the only
45 polygamist family in that area, to my
46 knowledge, and in order to cover the
47 relationship of what was being done there
4
1 to our neighbours, we passed our half

2 brothers and sisters off as our cousins
3 and we weren't allowed to refer to my
4 dad's second wife as mother Matina, it
5 was aunt Matina. And the cover story
6 they gave, if I remember correctly, had
7 something to do with her being a widowed
8 relative of ours who had all these
9 children. However, I don't know if any
10 of the neighbours ever caught on to the
11 fact that our family was still continuing
12 to grow and she was still having babies,
13 although she was a widow, or whatever the
14 deal was, whatever they told them.
15 Q And we've heard about the fact that there
16 were actual polygamist communities down
17 in Shore Creek. Can you explain why you
18 guys were living up in Magna at that
19 time?
20 A We were living in Magna because from the
21 time my father got out of the service
22 till we moved down to Shore Creek in
23 1985, he was a civilian employed at Hill
24 field, approximately 35 miles north of
25 Salt Lake City, Hill airforce base, he
26 was a radar repair technician up there.
27 And in order to keep his job he had to
28 live within so many miles of the base.
29 And also, we did have access to church
30 meetings and group gatherings and things
31 of that sort here because there was a
32 polygamist enclave or a division of our
33 church that was based in Sandy, Utah.
34 Q And Sandy, is that part of Salt Lake or
35 just adjacent to Salt Lake?
36 A That's a suburb of Salt Lake.
37 Q And, Rich, do you know how old your mom
38 was when she married your dad?
39 A My mother was 18 when she married dad.
40 Q And was she married to him as what we
41 have referred to as a placement marriage?
42 A Yes, it was a placement marriage,
43 directed by Leroy Johnson, who was the
44 prophet at that time. And he was then
45 subsequently married, ten years later, to
46 Matina, Bonnie's younger sister. And she
47 was 18 at the time of her marriage as
5
1 well.
2 Q Okay. You've indicated that in 1985, so
3 I guess when you were about three, the
4 family moved down to Shore Creek?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q And we've also heard that area referred
7 to as the twin communities of Colorado
8 City and Hildale?
9 A Hildale, Utah, yes. And, actually, we
10 did land on the Hildale side, the Utah
11 side of the line first, I almost forgot
12 that, for a matter of months, I believe
13 it was less than a year, but I'm not
14 positive, because I was so young at the
15 time. We lived in a trailer house with
16 our accompanying camper trailers and
17 campers just down the hill from my
18 grandfather's place, which would be my
19 mother's dad's property. He actually
20 owned the property we stayed in for the
21 first while there while they were
22 renovating this old laundromat, which
23 later became my father's family home.
24 Q And that home was in Colorado City?
25 A It was on the Arizona side, yeah.
26 Q And so for the first year you kind of
27 camped out in the trailers?
28 A Yeah, making do with the place to crash
29 until we could get something big enough
30 to hold us all.
31 Q And so when you moved on to the converted
32 laundromat on the Colorado City side, is
33 that the house you then grew up in?
34 A By and large, yes. There was another
35 home on the property, or what would have
36 been the property, it had kind of been
37 subdivided and split in half at the time,
38 that we -- years later was assigned to my
39 father to be the caretaker by the church.
40 I mean, all of that was UAP property
41 anyway, nobody owned anything, except the
42 UAP owned everything. But they gave him
43 that other house. And adjacent to it was
44 a very large foundation of a home that
45 had been started and never finished, and
46 we built onto that and that was supposed
47 to be the home that was to house all my
6
1 father's children. Unfortunately,

2 though, money matters and other things
3 got in the way, to the point that by the
4 time we even had one level of that home
5 finished he didn't have near enough
6 children left living at home to fill it
7 anymore.
8 Q So is it the case, then, that the entire
9 family, both your dad's wives and all the
10 kids, ended up living in the converted
11 laundromat house?
12 A We did, when his family was large, yes.
13 We were stuck in that. Then we got that
14 other home which was quite small too, but
15 it was still crowded as all get out. But
16 the big house that we all had dreams and
17 hopes of living in some day never really
18 did come about for us, because by the
19 time it was even finished where some of
20 it was livable everybody had grown up,
21 moved out, gotten married, had kids of
22 their own, and there wasn't but a small
23 handful of children left there with the
24 parents.
25 Q So can you describe what the living
26 arrangement was once you moved onto the
27 Colorado City side?
28 A When we moved into the laundromat, dad
29 had quite a large supply of military
30 surplus type bunk beds and he would stack
31 those three high. There was five rooms
32 in that house, if I remember correctly,
33 and each of these had three bunk beds
34 three high or as many as you could fit,
35 three high in a bed. I recall sharing a
36 room with four -- no, five of my
37 brothers, there were six of us in them.
38 We had two tiers of bunk beds and three
39 high. And in comparison to where we had
40 lived, sleeping on the floor in both the
41 trailer house on the Hildale side and up
42 in Magna, Utah, I was thinking that was
43 pretty luxurious accommodations.
44 Q And so by the time you moved into
45 Colorado City, you were four years old
46 then?
47 A Approximately. I don't think we were at
7
1 that trailer for a whole year, it was

2 probably less than a year, but I know it
3 wasn't more than one.
4 Q And did you start school at the age we
5 would expect kids to start kindergarten
6 then, around five or so?
7 A Yeah, I went to kindergarten at age six,
8 actually. Did nothing for a year, pretty
9 much, and then I went into first grade at
10 eight years old. And that was the age
11 that my dad always started his first
12 graders at, and the reason for that I'm
13 still not sure of, where everybody else
14 goes to school at six, I didn't go to
15 school till I was eight. However,
16 because of my ability to learn and pick
17 up on things so quick, we already had a
18 higher education level than my first
19 grade counterparts and they immediately
20 moved me to second. I wasn't in first
21 grade for two whole weeks and they jumped
22 me one.
23 Q And this was in the public school in --
24 A Yes.
25 Q And how far did you get to in school in
26 Colorado City?
27 A I finished 6th grade. When I wanted to
28 enroll for 7th, that wasn't permitted.
29 My dad didn't allow me to do that,
30 because he was concerned about me having
31 contact with the opposite sex, which is
32 strictly forbidden.
33 Q So he wanted you to get out of an
34 environment where there was that
35 temptation?
36 A Where there were girls, yes.
37 Q And what did he have you do then instead
38 of going to school?
39 A Work.
40 Q What kinds of things did you do?
41 A Anything. We would dig post holes, we'd
42 build fences, we'd feed cows, we'd milk
43 cows, we'd drive trucks. We worked on
44 appliances quite a bit because that was
45 something dad did as a service to the
46 community, he was an appliance repairman.
47 In fact, he was a crackerjack of a
8
1 repairman, he could fix anything. And he

2 did a lot of work at the dairy and a lot
3 of work at the storehouse and a lot of
4 work at the big potato cooler that was
5 owned by the church. And we had to
6 assist him with his projects, and if he
7 didn't have something for us to do, by
8 gosh, he knew someone who did.
9 Q So you started doing that when you should
10 have been in grade 7. If I could just go
11 back to school for a second. You talked
12 about the fact that contact between
13 members of the opposite sex was
14 prohibited. Was that prohibited by the
15 church?
16 A Very much so.
17 Q And --
18 A And thus prohibited by our parents, our
19 brothers, our sisters. Anybody who cared
20 about what the church wanted would take a
21 stand against it, if you will.
22 Q Did the church have an influence, then,
23 in what you were taught at school?
24 A Absolutely. The school was by and large
25 controlled by active members and active
26 supporters of the church, so on that
27 basis, everybody from the janitor to the
28 superintendent, every last member of the
29 school board is beholden to and can hold
30 themselves accountable to the prophet and
31 the leadership of this church, so they
32 had a pretty good stronghold on what
33 curriculum was passed onto the students
34 and what was withheld. For example, I
35 very distinctly remember all the
36 textbooks for health class had sections
37 governing issues of STDs and sex
38 education removed, simply because their
39 logic, I guess, behind that is that if
40 you don't know what sex is, period,
41 there's no risk of getting an STD. So
42 that solved that problem. They don't
43 want to pollute your innocent mind, so
44 we're not going to explain to you how to
45 protect yourself should you choose to
46 participate in this because you are not
47 going to be participating in it because
9
1 you don't know what it is. There you go.

2 Problem solved.
3 Q And when you said that your dad had been
4 concerned about you being in school,
5 nevertheless created the opportunity for
6 you to have contact with the opposite
7 sex, was that just a general concern or
8 was it someone specifically that he was
9 concerned about you being in touch with?
10 A Honestly, I don't remember. I think it
11 was a concern in general, but there was
12 at that time -- no, there was a young
13 lady that was getting -- that caught my
14 eye a little better than the rest of them
15 did. I don't know, I always liked girls,
16 I mean, even just to have as friends. I
17 kind of found them to be -- I don't want
18 to sound like a sexist -- but intriguing
19 and neat creatures. And I've always had
20 a sense of humour that females are
21 usually pretty responsive to, I know how
22 to make them laugh, you know. And it
23 wasn't even just so much a sexual thing
24 where you want to go and take that step
25 with somebody. I've always had friends
26 that were of the opposite sex and that
27 made my dad very concerned, because they
28 can't shelter you forever from the facts
29 of life, once you pick up on them on your
30 own they figure if you're spending time
31 around girls it's going to happen
32 eventually. And that's the worst
33 possible outcome in the eyes of a parent
34 in the FLDS, next to their child being a
35 murderer, to be a fornicator or to be
36 morally unclean.
37 Q And so in school were you taught about
38 what would eventually happen in terms of
39 your marriage to someone in the opposite
40 sex and how that was going to work?
41 A Well, not in school, not in the public
42 school. They were careful to avoid --
43 you've got to understand, we were going
44 to school with children who were members
45 of the Apostate church over the hill in
46 Centennial Port, and if they got to
47 pushing the religion thing too hard, not
10
1 only were there children in the school

2 that were members of that church who had
3 split off, there were teachers and staff
4 in that school that were members of that
5 church that had split off, there were
6 teachers and staff in that school that
7 were members of the church that had split
8 off, and they kept their religion thing
9 pretty much in check. And, in fact, some
10 of us used to get gotten after for
11 discussing religion at school because of
12 the whole separation of church and state
13 thing, so they didn't really push
14 religion on you at school, but they would
15 not discuss and give you an objective
16 education when it came to certain
17 matters, i.e., sex education, because it
18 was frowned upon by the church.
19 Q And so what were you taught in church and
20 in your home about marriage?
21 A The way I understood it growing up is
22 that marriage is a sacred bond between a
23 man and a woman, and the way we believed
24 it was marriage only is and only can be
25 designated by god through his mouthpiece,
26 the prophet, that you don't have the
27 right to choose your own companion, that
28 god chooses for you, and the day you're
29 worthy of having that connection or that
30 bond with another human being, then god's
31 gonna speak from heaven and tell the
32 prophet that Rich Ream is ready to get
33 married and he needs to get married to
34 thus and so, and you go meet this person,
35 and 20 minutes later you're saying I do
36 in front of the prophet. And in most
37 cases then you haul down to the
38 magistrate at St. George and make it
39 legal, if you so choose to do so. But
40 you were not to speculate on who you
41 might like to get married to, you were
42 not to hope you get married to a certain
43 person. And looking at a girl more than
44 once with thoughts of, damn, I would just
45 love to be with her for the rest of my
46 life, is considered an almost cardinal
47 sin, and also you're then accused of
11
1 another crime, which they call not

2 sacrificing your feelings, because if you
3 look at this girl and you want her to be
4 your wife, then you're shoving what god
5 wants for you aside in favour of what you
6 want for yourself.
7 Q And so it wasn't ever your expectation
8 that you were going to be able to choose
9 who you would marry, in other words?
10 A Well, I don't know if I can say this on
11 tape, because I don't think I even ever
12 told my own parents this, but I decided a
13 long time ago that someone else wasn't
14 choosing it for me, and that's where that
15 road really ended for me. It was just a
16 matter of time. And I was only about 14
17 years old at the time, that was it. And
18 marriage is so complicated, and so
19 difficult to manage and so hard to hold
20 together and society's getting worse and
21 worse on these issues, to where it's
22 getting harder than it's ever been. I
23 don't honestly know how somebody can be
24 expected to have or maintain a healthy
25 relationship with a spouse that they
26 didn't even have a say in choosing. I
27 love my Wendy to death, she's my other
28 half, she's my partner, and we have
29 tension sometime, but it's just almost
30 overwhelming. And I chose her. So I
31 can't understand how somebody who has no
32 say in the matter, no choice in the
33 matter, is expected to make this thing
34 last forever and into time and all
35 eternity, yadda, yadda, yadda.
36 Q What about plural marriage, were you
37 taught about that?
38 A Absolutely. It's not known strictly as
39 plural marriage in that society, it's
40 referred to as the new and everlasting
41 covenant of marriage, that it's a high
42 doctrine that is to be participated in
43 only by the most pure and the most worthy
44 persons. And once it's designated -- the
45 way I was taught originally growing up is
46 that once designated it cannot be
47 reversed, no way, no way in heaven or on
12
1 earth can that marriage be undone or

2 annulled or reversed in any way, shape or
3 form. However, that shifted a little bit
4 when Warren Jeffs come into town and
5 started hacking families apart like a
6 texas chainsaw massacre type of
7 situation, and used the excuse that it
8 was god's will that these families are
9 families, which falls into direct
10 contradiction to the idea that this
11 marriage is 100 percent forever and four
12 days. There's just no way these
13 marriages can end, that was what we were
14 taught, and had it pounded into our heads
15 to the point where I honestly believed
16 it. I believed that the only marriage
17 that is going to last beyond this
18 lifetime was a marriage done under the
19 new and everlasting covenant of marriage,
20 and that people who were sealed to each
21 other under that covenant cannot be
22 undone. And then, like I say, Warren
23 Jeffs come in and started disbanding
24 families in direct contradiction to what
25 we'd been taught for so many years.
26 Q So when you were in school it wasn't
27 Warren Jeffs who was the prophet then, it
28 was Rulon?
29 A Rulon.
30 Q And so you've been telling us, Rich,
31 about when you would have otherwise been
32 in grade 7, but your dad had taken you
33 out to put you to work.
34 A There's a couple of issues to that, not
35 the least of which is the financial
36 aspect. He could draw a wage from my
37 labours, whether I worked for someone
38 else and handed in my paycheque ever
39 week, which was known to happen, or
40 whether he had me working for somebody
41 who paid him directly, which happened a
42 few times, it was a matter of trying to
43 support the family he had that was -- I
44 mean, almost too much for any one man. I
45 look up to him, I have immense respect
46 for him, because I don't know how in hell
47 he held it together as well as he did
13
1 with that many mouths to feed for so many

2 years.
3 Q Was it a struggle for your family to --
4 A Absolutely. We were constantly on the
5 edge of poverty. And that's why I say, I
6 know this firsthand, people who have
7 everything appreciate nothing and people
8 who have nothing appreciate everything.
9 I appreciate a lot of dumb things, things
10 that are of no consequence to other
11 people. Why? Because I never had them.
12 Q And so in going to work when you
13 otherwise would have been in school, you
14 were helping the family with that --
15 A Yes, that was one side of that coin. The
16 other side of the coin is the association
17 with girls at the public school, they
18 solved that problem; and also -- the way
19 I had it put to me is, well, you don't
20 need to graduate high school, and you
21 don't need to go to college because,
22 well, by the time you're old enough to
23 enter college I'll be surprised if there
24 is even a college for you to go to.
25 Christ is going to return to this earth
26 and the destructions are gonna come and
27 knock down all the infrastructure and all
28 the institutions and the world is gonna
29 end and our paper money ain't gonna be
30 worth a damned thing, so you're better
31 off learning how to grow a row of corn
32 and fatten up a hog and slaughter it than
33 you are trying to go to college, because
34 those are the skills that will help you
35 survive when this god awful apocalypse
36 comes down and wipes everything out and
37 you can't go to the store for groceries
38 anymore. That was the justification in
39 refusing your son his education that he
40 wanted.
41 Q And were you around 12 or 13 at this
42 period of time?
43 A I would have been. I think I was 13.
44 Q And was that the first time that you'd
45 started working for your dad or had you
46 been working --
47 A Oh, no. I don't remember the first time
14
1 I ever got handed a shovel or a rake or a

2 hoe. It must have been -- yeah, it was,
3 it was when we first moved to Colorado
4 City. Matina was the mother who handled
5 all the children. My mother was a career
6 lady, she worked for the school district
7 at that time and she did for 20 some
8 years thereafter. She actually retired
9 from the school just recently. But
10 Matina was the one who brought the
11 children up and mother was working to
12 support the family, so actually dead to
13 rights I was raised by Matina.
14 Q She was responsible for all of --
15 A For all the children. And she did a
16 great job, she's a wonderful lady, as is
17 my own mother.
18 Matina used to have us choose the
19 tools out of the shed there, and we'd
20 walk down the dirt road about a half mile
21 to where there was this really large
22 community garden that grew carrots and
23 tomatoes and corn and things like that.
24 And everybody in town could go and pick
25 off of this garden if they needed
26 vegetables for the family, that's what it
27 was there for. But she'd had us get out
28 there and help the caretakers of that
29 garden. We had to dig furrows for water
30 and stuff like that, and we were barely
31 old enough to handle garden tools. So as
32 far as work goes, I guess work is as much
33 a part of me as polygamy or anything
34 else. It made me Rich Ream, because as
35 far as back I can remember, I don't
36 remember a day of not doing it.
37 Q You were telling me before the camera got
38 turned on about the first time you drove
39 a vehicle?
40 A Yeah. The first time I drove a vehicle I
41 believe I was nine years old, and there
42 was a law right after that, more so when
43 I got into my teens, 13 and 14, I was
44 driving commercial trucks, tractor-
45 trailers, mostly around town, sometimes
46 we'd sneak a few miles out if there was a
47 gravel haul or something going on, where
15
1 we had to go to the BLN pit which was

2 about 20 miles out of town. And
3 eventually I wound up running across the
4 country in a tractor-trailer, which is
5 what I still do today. But it was easy
6 enough to get away with operating a
7 vehicle while you weren't even old enough
8 to obtain a learner's permit for it and
9 barely tall enough to reach the pedals,
10 when the law enforcement is so entirely
11 and totally held by the church and these
12 people are friends of your parents and
13 your parents are friends of them, that
14 unless you were really being a nuisance
15 or causing a problem or endangering
16 somebody, just about anybody who could
17 see over that steering wheel could get
18 away with driving a car across town or
19 around town.
20 Q And so this period of time that you
21 worked for your dad after you left
22 school, and so I presume you were putting
23 in longer days than you had been when you
24 were still in school?
25 A Oh, absolutely. 16 hours a day in a lot
26 of cases, and sometimes more than that.
27 But it never mattered to me whether I
28 worked side by side with my father on
29 projects he was doing or whether I was
30 working for, say, L&M Equipment as a
31 mechanic and a body worker over there in
32 their paint shop, because either way I
33 never reaped the proceeds of my own work,
34 it went to dad.
35 Q You never got a paycheque?
36 A No. I would get a paycheque from L&M,
37 but it was a strict directive of my
38 father's house, as well as the church,
39 that if you live at home with your father
40 you do what with your paycheque? You
41 sign it over and you turn it in, you give
42 it to him to go to support the family
43 because you're part of his family and any
44 money you make is automatically his,
45 because he's supporting you, he's housing
46 you, he's clothing you.
47 Q And would your dad in turn be giving some
16
1 of that money in the form of tiding to

2 the church?
3 A Absolutely. He would always ask me, did
4 you pay tiding on this? And if I told
5 him no then he would do it, if I told him
6 yes he would keep the whole thing. Now,
7 in defence of that system, if I -- say,
8 say I needed a new shirt or a pair or
9 jeans or if I wanted a new pair of boots,
10 I could tell him, well, I need this, and
11 usually I had to do it right when I
12 handed in my paycheque or else the money
13 would get spent on something else, but he
14 was really good about handing a little
15 back to me if I needed some.
16 Q Your dad was?
17 A He did not want to deprive any of his
18 boys of having the things they needed, if
19 they were willing to work for them. That
20 was his -- that was his big thing, if
21 you're willing to work for it you should
22 have it.
23 Q Now, Rich, again before we turned the
24 camera on you had been telling us a story
25 about when you were 15 and you were asked
26 to leave the community temporarily. Can
27 you -- we'll get to that in a moment, but
28 can you just explain to us what led up to
29 your move up to Salt Lake when you were
30 15?
31 A There was a -- well, in spite of my dad's
32 -- I've got to back it up just a little
33 here, so bear with me. In spite of his
34 efforts to separate me or sever me from
35 the opposite sex by removing me from the
36 public school system, it ultimately
37 didn't pan out for him or have the
38 desired results, because -- he'd make
39 sure I got worked good and hard so he'd
40 have a pretty good idea where I'd be at
41 night, in bed, asleep, because you're so
42 bone tired you can't do anything else.
43 Somehow I still managed to find time to
44 get into a rather fast-moving and fast-
45 paced, intense relationship with a girl
46 that I had met at the public school but
47 that didn't live far from my house, thus
17
1 made it very logistically easy to meet

2 up, her place, my place, didn't matter.
3 Usually her place, even would crawl in
4 her window on some occasions in the
5 middle of the night, quiet as a mouse.
6 But when it came to my parents' attention
7 that I was having a relationship with her
8 and they found out to what extent it had
9 gone, to where we were actually having a
10 conjugal relationship, it really rocked
11 the boat and upset the parents to --
12 worse than I'd ever see them upset before
13 or since, literally. And dad turned to,
14 I think it was the bishop, I'm not
15 positive, it might have been the prophet
16 himself, I don't remember, but he turned
17 to one of the church elders for guidance
18 on how to handle the situation, and he
19 was told to get me out of his home on a
20 temporary basis because I was a bad apple
21 that was going to spoil the rest of the
22 box or rub off on my siblings, if you
23 will. And he decided I needed some
24 pretty intensive indoctrination and
25 religious training, so they sent me to
26 Salt Lake City to live with an uncle's
27 family, where I was -- when the school
28 year started for 8th grade -- see, I
29 missed 7. When the school year started
30 for 8th grade they enrolled me in
31 Warren's little boot camp up there, Alta
32 Academy, I call it Warren's boot camp
33 because that's where his best
34 indoctrinated brainwashed people came
35 from, were his star students of Alta
36 Academy. Well, they thought that could
37 probably get me to do a U-turn and get my
38 feet back on the path to righteousness,
39 as if such a thing were possible.
40 Anyway, I spent a little over a year
41 in Salt Lake City, living with my uncle
42 and his family. All his children went to
43 Alta Academy, except for a couple of them
44 that were similar to me and got expelled
45 for infractions against the code of
46 behavior. Of that school year I made it
47 about two-thirds of the way through
18
1 before I was expelled for, once again,

2 what else, a relationship with a girl.
3 Q It sounds like --
4 A And this one wasn't even to the point
5 that the original one that got me sent me
6 there was to, all they had was one note
7 from me to her and a few phone calls that
8 somebody was able to eavesdrop on. And
9 it blew up and I was dragged before
10 Warren Jeffs and put on the carpet to
11 answer some actions, and when I didn't
12 act sorry and penitent enough he says,
13 "well, we don't need you here, can't have
14 you in this school, get out." So they
15 sent me away.
16 And I stayed in Salt Lake a while
17 longer working for my uncle, he had a
18 trucking company and I worked in his
19 shop, until I was allowed to move back
20 home. And when I did move back home, I
21 had just turned 16, I remember this very
22 well, because I finally got that
23 laminate, that card everybody begs for
24 when they get that age, I got that
25 driver's licence. And it wasn't two days
26 after my driver's licence came in the
27 mail that my dad approached me, so this
28 would have been in 1998, my dad
29 approached me and said he was going to
30 send me to Canada to work in one of
31 Winston's lumber mills up there. He had
32 just opened his Bonners Ferry operation
33 to give the US boys a place where they
34 could legally be employed and work. Now,
35 he had been having US boys work there off
36 and on, but it'd come under fire a few
37 times for employing people or using
38 people to do labour in Canada that
39 weren't exactly legal to do so.
40 And I had come back down from Salt
41 Lake and immediately fallen right back
42 into my pattern of bad behaviour and met
43 a new girlfriend and was seeing more of
44 her than I was of anybody else in town or
45 the family, and I was getting worse and
46 worse, because I was getting to the point
47 where I didn't care who saw or who knew,
19
1 so covering it up wasn't even an option

2 anymore. And my dad figured I was
3 totally off the deep end and a loose
4 cannon again, because I was walking down
5 the street with this gal and holding her
6 hand in broad daylight, I didn't care.
7 And this gets better yet. In fact,
8 I forgot to tell you something when the
9 camera was off, but you'll appreciate
10 this. And her and I hadn't gotten to the
11 point where we were having anything close
12 to a sexual relationship, we were just
13 merely damned good friends. And I
14 imagine that was probably what we were
15 working our way towards and swinging at
16 because we really liked each other a lot,
17 but her dad wanted to put a stopper on
18 that before it got out of control, so he
19 made arrangements to send me up there to
20 work with Winston.
21 Q And this is Winston Blackmore?
22 A Yes, yes. I went to Bonners Ferry and
23 there was a bunkhouse there on the
24 property at Bonners Ferry that the crew
25 lived in, a trailer house, a 70-footer, a
26 pretty good sized trailer house. And
27 that was our accommodation. We lived
28 right there at the place we worked at.
29 You'd walk out the door of the trailer, I
30 don't know, it was maybe 500 yards across
31 the dirt and gravel lot to an old pull
32 barn, where we'd sit there and push tree
33 stakes through a peeler all day, and band
34 these babies up and get them ready for
35 shipping. We had a fellow there who was
36 working with us that was a truck driver
37 that would haul the finished product down
38 to the customer that was buying it from
39 us down there by Coeur d'Alene.
40 At any rate, I went to Canada, and I
41 was told I needed to be rebaptized,
42 again, this would be the second time, the
43 second time I'd be rebaptized.
44 Q Because you'd been rebaptized after Salt
45 Lake City?
46 A Yes, yes, I missed that, I'm sorry.
47 Anyway, Winston rebaptized me, and I was
20
1 doing fine there. I had actually gotten

2 to the point where I was starting to feel
3 a little bit of shame for some of my
4 actions. And, well, you know, just
5 because it's what you want to do might
6 not mean it's right, and sometimes you've
7 got to set aside what you want to do if
8 you're going to do what's right. That
9 was the stuff we were being taught.
10 Winston had a really -- he had a way
11 with young guys, boys that age, where no
12 one else in the world might not be able
13 to communicate with you in a way that you
14 could understand, Winston could do it. I
15 don't know if it was just his magnetic
16 personality or what, but to this day I'd
17 still stand proud to call the guy my
18 friend. But he got me seeing that maybe
19 things weren't quite as uptight and
20 restrictive as I thought. And also I was
21 thinking I might be turning a corner to
22 where I wasn't as doomed as I thought I
23 was, because Winston was notorious for
24 dropping a bug in the ear for the prophet
25 when it came time to arrange marriages,
26 as to who was digging on who. So if you
27 were actually in Winston's group or part
28 of what he was doing up there in Canada,
29 you had a pretty good chance if you let
30 it be known that you had taken a shine to
31 a particular person, when it came time
32 for you to get married, there was a good
33 bet that would be the person you got
34 assigned to, because Winston appreciated
35 the force of attraction between boys and
36 girls.
37 Q And the prophet at this time was still
38 Rulon?
39 A Rulon, Rulon Jeffs.
40 Q So Winston was --
41 A Now, this was in '98. While I was up
42 there working in Bonners Ferry for
43 Winston is when Rulon had his first
44 stroke. However, I was there. I went up
45 there in April. And come October of the
46 same year of 1998, the very same girl
47 that had got me sent up there for
21
1 associating with shows up one day, 1,100

2 miles away, visiting a friend of hers in
3 Lister, BC. I didn't know she was there.
4 I was at work. I was minding my
5 business. Well, until I went to church,
6 and I went to church and I spotted her.
7 I seen her there and I felt all the
8 resolve that I had built up for being a
9 good man and doing better and turning
10 over a new leaf just really starting to
11 slide. I'm thinking, oh, this is going
12 to get bad, she's right there. Now, when
13 she was a thousand miles away it's pretty
14 damned easy to keep your hands and your
15 eyes and your thoughts off of her because
16 what good does it do you to think about
17 something you can't touch or associate
18 with or talk to? No problem. And that
19 same day I spent a little while talking
20 to her there on Winston's front porch.
21 And that was the other thing I liked
22 about being up there, is people would not
23 come and bust you in the chops for
24 talking to the girls. Now, if they
25 suspected there was something elicit
26 going on, you'd get put in your place for
27 that, but not for a conversation.
28 And I thought, oh, man, I still feel
29 the same way I did about her then. I
30 finally gotten rebaptized, daddy was
31 proud of me, Winston was proud of me,
32 everybody except Warren was proud of me,
33 but I don't think he was ever going to be
34 proud of me again after the little stunt
35 I pulled in his boot camp. But I was
36 scared to death of losing the status I
37 had gained in the eyes of these people I
38 respected, so I went to Winston and I
39 explained the situation to him and I
40 said, she's here and she wants to stay
41 here and I'm here and I have a terrible
42 weakness towards her. I think it might
43 be best if I go home. He says, what are
44 you saying you can't keep your pecker to
45 yourself, I believe is exactly what he
46 said. I said, well, yeah, basically.
47 Okay, that's fair enough, if you don't
22
1 think you can handle it, I guess it's

2 good of you to be honest and stand up
3 about it. So he sent me back home.
4 Q To Colorado City?
5 A And I was glad he did, because later that
6 year my brother George, who was my best
7 friend in the whole world, in December
8 was buried alive in a construction
9 accident. He was a pipe setter for an
10 excavation outfit, and he was killed in
11 that accident, and I was able to rush out
12 there and participate in recovering his
13 body from the hole that it caved in on
14 him, where I wouldn't have been able to
15 if I had still been stuck up there. But
16 I got to be really close to him in the
17 last few months he was alive, again. We
18 were close all our lives, but we'd been
19 apart all that time I was in Canada, and
20 if I hadn't of come home when I did I
21 probably would have missed out on getting
22 to spend the rest of the time that I did
23 with him. So I was glad for that reason.
24 And that's one thing I still look
25 for in everything that happens to me and
26 everything I go through, I always try to
27 look for the purpose and the reason
28 that's behind it because, from where I
29 stand, I believe there is a god and I
30 believe that he gives and takes for a
31 reason. And no matter how crummy the
32 situation might seem to you and me right
33 now, you can't disregard his purpose or
34 his hand in it. And I think it's
35 important too to remember that, because
36 there's a little bit of good in every
37 bad, no matter how shitty it seems at the
38 time.
39 However, to get back on subject, the
40 girl I mentioned earlier that
41 mysteriously showed up in Canada while I
42 was there and supposed to be repenting,
43 just a matter of a few short months
44 later, I believe it was in April of the
45 following year, got married to a
46 Canadian. And last count -- I don't know
47 if this is accurate, last count she had
23
1 three that I know of, and that's been,

2 gosh, nine years ago, so who knows how
3 many she's got by now. I'm not in
4 contact with her or anyone in her family.
5 There are a couple of her brothers that I
6 know casually. Maybe if I run into one
7 of them I'll find out. The last I knew,
8 I personally laid eyes on her, she had
9 three, three little Indians.
10 Q So she stayed up in Canada and never came
11 back --
12 A She is still there, and she's actually
13 part of Jimmy's little offshoot of
14 Warren's church.
15 Q Jimmy Oler?
16 A Yeah. So is he going to be watching this
17 or what?
18 Q He may.
19 A Oh, hi, Jimmy. Yeah, I know you never
20 did like me, but that's okay, I didn't
21 really like you either. He was all right
22 most of the time, though. You're a
23 pretty fair guy.
24 Q So when you came back to Colorado --
25 A I know it's hard not to laugh, I was just
26 wondering. And sorry I left her name
27 out, but she's probably well respected in
28 her circles and she knows who she is,
29 she'll know if she sees this, but I hope
30 nobody else catches on, for her sake, not
31 mine. I have absolutely no shame and no
32 conscience.
33 Q So at this period of time, Rich, when you
34 came back from Canada, where was your
35 mind at in terms of the FLDS doctrine?
36 Were you still thinking you were going to
37 stay part of the church or had you
38 started to --
39 A I was actually more into it and more
40 indoctrinated at that time, right around
41 the time my brother died, than I had been
42 in years, I mean, since I was very young,
43 very small. I was back in the saddle. I
44 was going for broke. I was going for
45 gold.
46 Q Waiting for the world to end?
47 A Something like that, I guess. I guess
24
1 that's what I was doing. No, I was just

2 -- started focussing everything on being
3 that picture-perfect person that
4 everybody told me I needed to be in order
5 to be worthy of receiving a wife, because
6 I'm a family man, I love my children.
7 And I wanted to have children. And as
8 long as I stayed a part of that society
9 that was a privilege I was not going to
10 be extended unless I convinced some
11 influential people that I was worthy and
12 capable of such responsibility, so that's
13 what I was focussed on. But it never
14 came about, not for me. And the more I
15 tried to please and the less pleased they
16 became, even though I was trying,
17 honestly trying the best I could, giving
18 all I had to give, and that never came
19 about, and they never would throw me a
20 bone or give me a reason to be interested
21 in their church or their society, that's
22 when it started to taper off again.
23 Q What started to taper off?
24 A My desire to be a part of the church and
25 have the prophet give me a wife and make
26 babies with said wife for the next 30
27 years or whatever.
28 Q And so did you start --
29 A Whatever I was trying to do. Honestly,
30 it's such a blur to me now, I'm pretty
31 sure, but I do remember being focussed
32 and consciously seeking to try to get on
33 that list of eligible bachelors who
34 weren't going to be bachelors no more. I
35 wanted to start a family. And that's
36 what I worked toward for the better part
37 of two and a half years. It wasn't right
38 up until the end of my days in the FLDS
39 that I kind of got the embittered feeling
40 and then the family started getting
41 broken apart and then I did a major crash
42 and burn and a 180 from where I was. And
43 I don't think, even now today, that the
44 choice I ultimately made was a bad one.
45 And I certainly feel like I've reaped a
46 great deal of blessings for walking the
47 path that I've walked and living the life
25
1 I've lived. And apparently you don't

2 have to have the prophet's seal of
3 approval or his stamp of approval to have
4 a decent marriage and a couple of
5 beautiful children and a healthy family,
6 because I managed to do it without it.
7 Q And you were 19, is that right, Rich,
8 when you left?
9 A I was 19 and a half, I was almost 20.
10 Q And you described to us some of the
11 conflict you'd been having with Warren
12 right before you left. Is that really
13 what triggered the decision to walk away
14 entirely?
15 A No. Nothing ever triggers that. And
16 that is a life-changing decision, believe
17 it or not. When you're getting ready to
18 slam the door on everything that is
19 familiar to you, I mean, think about it,
20 that's going to cause some upset up in
21 here. It might make you question your
22 own sanity a little bit down the road
23 too. But there were a few contributing
24 factors, not the least of which is that I
25 felt like I was in a dead-end life, one,
26 because of my previous sins,
27 shortcomings, weaknesses. I was all but
28 told point blank by Warren Jeffs that I
29 was not eligible and would not be
30 eligible for marriage in the FLDS because
31 I had committed fornication. So there's
32 a dead give-away right there, that you
33 ain't going nowhere, you've pretty much
34 climbed as high as you're gonna climb in
35 this society, which wasn't appealing to
36 me. I wanted the wife and the children
37 and all of that what have you.
38 And secondly, he started to tear
39 apart the families that had been placed
40 together by the church. That kind of
41 turns your appetite for a church marriage
42 off. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, so now
43 you're saying because they gave it they
44 can take it? I'm going to have to
45 rethink what I want out of this here.
46 And third, it was just the fact that
47 Warren Jeffs could not tell enough lies
26
1 to cover the ones he had already told

2 anymore. The man is of extremely high
3 intelligence. I dare say that as far as
4 IQ goes, he's probably smarter than you
5 and me put together, but he made a huge
6 mistake, and it's real common with people
7 who are smart like that, he outsmarted
8 his own common sense. Bad idea. He dug
9 himself in too deep with the lies he was
10 telling and they couldn't cover him
11 anymore. And if a 19-year-old kid can
12 call you out and tell you you're a phony
13 and tell you you're a fucking liar and
14 call you a murderer of families right to
15 your face, that's not good for your
16 society, if everything you're doing is
17 contingent upon having total control of
18 the people, because now you've got
19 someone who's not even half your age
20 calling you out. And even coming from a
21 rebellious teenager, who's maybe not the
22 most popular or well respected or well
23 received person in town, it can cause
24 seeds of doubt to start growing in the
25 minds of people around them. And it's
26 just like a fire, you start a little fire
27 and if you've got dry material and a
28 little breeze it's going to be a big fire
29 pretty quick.
30 So for that reason, from where he
31 stood, I had to go, I'm pretty sure. And
32 for the sake of my own sanity and my
33 desire to strike out on my own and have
34 my own family and make my own babies, and
35 go home to my own wife, I had to go.
36 Honestly, Warren Jeffs telling me to
37 remove myself from that society is
38 probably the only good thing the man's
39 ever done for me. The only good thing.
40 And I thank him for it because, as far as
41 I'm concerned, he's a waste of oxygen and
42 he's a terrible, awful, pathetic sample
43 of a specimen of a human being. But he
44 did do me one good turn, he threw me out
45 of there. And I'm glad he did, because I
46 was at the point where I might have
47 stayed there, who knows how long, maybe a
27
1 month, maybe six, maybe a year longer,

2 had I not been pushed out that door by
3 him, because at that time, I had such a
4 terrible inner conflict with what I was
5 trying to hang onto in terms of what I
6 believed and what I didn't and what I was
7 going to dispose of.
8 And I have tried hard, even now, day
9 by day, when certain subjects come up
10 that I don't think about every day, and
11 I'll get into a debate on some of the
12 issues of the principles I was taught
13 growing up, I always try to be careful
14 not to throw my babies out with my bath
15 water, because -- you're basically trying
16 to establish if a polygamist society is
17 abusive, and that's not a question that
18 can be easily answered, but to put it as
19 objectively as I know how, no, it's not,
20 the society itself isn't. There are
21 members of those societies that are very
22 abusive and do abuse and have countless
23 victims. However, on the one hand, I do
24 my best not to feel sorry for myself,
25 because, one, self pity doesn't get me
26 anything and, two, I honestly know I can
27 guarantee this, from me to you, that my
28 parents did the very best they know how
29 and they're damned good people and they
30 have my undying respect for the
31 insurmountable feat they pulled off,
32 raising as many children as they did on
33 the limited resources they had, as well
34 as teaching each one of us how to work
35 hard, they'd teach us how to talk
36 straight to people. There's not a one of
37 us who's a politician or a liar, and
38 there's not a one of us that's afraid to
39 work, and there's not a one of us that
40 expects to have anything for nothing. So
41 there's good that comes out of it too.
42 That's what I'm getting at. I'm happy
43 for the good things that were ingrained
44 into me and became a part of my
45 character, and I'm a little sad for the
46 things that were lost, like the education
47 I wanted. But I was never abused by any
28
1 member of my family, not in terms of just

2 being part of the church. I got kicked
3 around a little, it's just a different
4 way to live. But by and large I don't
5 think the society's abusive, and if it
6 was it was going on on the level like I
7 explained, where you can be black-balled
8 and isolated and humiliated, and taught
9 even to feel like you're not worth a turd
10 on a stick because you make a mistake or
11 because you have involvement with a girl
12 of a sexual nature or something like
13 that. I think that's mildly abusive.
14 But there's not a society anywhere
15 in the world that I know of that's a
16 hundred percent righteous and a hundred
17 percent abuse free. I've never seen one.
18 Everybody knows what happened with the
19 Catholic church and their little sex
20 abuse scandal. There's been issues with
21 certain members of the Mormon church,
22 getting messy and doing things they
23 shouldn't do with young children.
24 So I think for the purposes of being
25 fair and being objective, I don't think
26 that the society should be labelled as
27 being abusive just because they're
28 polygamists, because it's not the
29 polygamy that's causing the abuse, it's
30 the people in it and the way it's being
31 run. And even for example, I was happy
32 growing up. I have a great deal of
33 respect for Rulon Jeffs, even to this
34 day, and I have none for his son Warren,
35 and how can that be? They ran things
36 entirely different. There was aspects of
37 Rulon Jeffs' character that I admired and
38 as far as I'm concerned, Warren Jeffs has
39 no redeeming qualities.
40 Q And right now, Rich, as we sit here,
41 you've mentioned a few times now that
42 you're married and you've got two kids
43 and a third on the way, and I'm going and
44 try and put this question as succinctly
45 as I can, but I'm just wondering how you
46 view your life today and what you have,
47 versus where it might have been if you'd
29
1 stayed within the FLDS, in terms of your

2 own level of happiness?
3 A That's not even a question I can answer,
4 because it calls for way too much
5 speculation. In order to know what would
6 have happened to me if I'd stayed inside
7 the FLDS, I'd have to have stayed there
8 and found out or have a crystal ball, and
9 I don't have either one.
10 Q Okay. Let's put it a different way.
11 Without getting you to speculate, I guess
12 what I'm really trying to get at is,
13 you're no longer a member of the church
14 today; is that right? You're no longer a
15 member of the FLDS?
16 A I'm no longer a member of any organized
17 church.
18 Q And so I guess what I'm getting at is how
19 have you found life on the outside, if I
20 can put it that way? Which is still a
21 big question.
22 A Well, my dad has a quote that fits right
23 in here so I'm going to throw that in for
24 ya. Life is just like a sandwich, the
25 more you put into it the better it is.
26 You don't get anything you don't give.
27 I've found life to be quite just,
28 sometimes on the edge of cruel, but just,
29 life is just, because it's what you make
30 it. And each person really is a master
31 of their own destiny. And people who
32 make the mistake of measuring their
33 life's value or their success in terms of
34 dollars, I feel sorry for them, because
35 I've made and lost a lot money on
36 different things and it's never made any
37 difference for me. But going to bed at
38 night and hearing my little boy cry and
39 taking him out of his crib and laying him
40 down next to me on the pillow and falling
41 back to sleep and feeling his cheek
42 blowing on my -- or feeling his breath
43 breathing across my cheek right here,
44 that's what makes my life good and that's
45 why I want to live it. And I feel like
46 god's given me more than I ever will
47 deserve or ever have deserved, and I
30
1 thank him for it, because not a lot of

2 people have been exposed as much as I
3 have to some of the darker aspects, the
4 darker days of life, but I don't believe
5 there's a lot of people who have the
6 profound appreciation for it that I feel
7 in my heart either so, like I said, there
8 we go again, I try to flip those coins
9 over and get the -- squeeze the good out
10 and throw the bad aside. Because I grew
11 up with out a lot of things, my parents
12 weren't really exceptionally affectionate
13 towards me, and how could they be with
14 that many children, how could they dote
15 on one or the other? In fact, they tried
16 to almost avoid showing affection
17 altogether just so that the jealousy
18 problem doesn't arise. But I like to
19 spoil and dote on my children half to
20 death. Now, I don't give them things
21 that are bad for them or anything like
22 that, but any time I'm home, if I've got
23 my son or my daughter there, I can
24 guarantee you one's on one knee and one's
25 on the other. And it doesn't matter how
26 tired I am, I'll hold them until they
27 fall asleep and then I'll take them to
28 their beds, until one of them wakes up.
29 But in terms of would I rather be here
30 than there? I'd have to say absolutely
31 yes. And the reason for that is that
32 here is where god wants me to be or else
33 I wouldn't be here, because god has a way
34 of getting his way with me and sometimes
35 he's a damned bully about it. Sometimes
36 all he's got to do is tug on your sleeve
37 a little and you go where you're supposed
38 to go, and other times he kicks you out
39 the door of a jet at 30,000 feet with a
40 parachute when you really didn't want to
41 jump. But by and large he is god and I
42 feel like I'm where he wants me to be.
43 And because of that I feel like he's
44 blessing me because I've learned to
45 accept and knowledge his hand in my life.
46 And I'm glad for the upbringing I had,
47 because they taught us to put our
31
1 families first. I've never seen a man in

2 my life that worked harder to support his
3 family than my dad did, he's my hero.
4 And he's even a better man than me,
5 because there is no way in hell you'll
6 ever see me try to hold together a
7 household with more than one wife and
8 that many children, and especially have
9 those wives be sisters. As far as I'm
10 concerned the guy needs a god-damned
11 medal. Good man.
12 Q Do you get to see your parents very much
13 these days, Rich?
14 A No. The times I get to see them are few
15 and far between, but they're pleasant
16 enough. We have decent visits, usually
17 right in their front yard. They won't
18 let me in their home, because they have
19 to rededicate the premises whenever I
20 come in there and then leave. But
21 they've always been decent to me when I
22 have returned and I'm always glad to see
23 them. I haven't seen them now for close
24 to a year, right now today, but I'm
25 hoping to get a chance to soon, because
26 they are getting on in years now. My
27 father was born in 1933, he's 77 years
28 old.
29 Q Rich, before I let you go altogether
30 today, I just wondered if you could talk
31 a little bit on the video about the
32 litigation you were involved in, that --
33 the lost boys litigation?
34 A The lost boys case was originally filed
35 by myself and six other plaintiffs. It
36 was directly related to Warren Jeffs and
37 his practice of expelling young boys from
38 the community and kicking their asses out
39 onto the street, to go get tough or die
40 or starve or do something, but don't stay
41 here.
42 And my involvement in that case
43 wasn't necessarily so much over being
44 expelled, as that they had a way of going
45 about their expellation that, in my case
46 specifically, I was owed a pretty hefty
47 sum of money for some work I'd performed
32
1 for a man who was part of the church.

2 And when I was expelled that man was told
3 by Warren not to pay me. He says, "well,
4 don't pay him, he's an Apostate, we don't
5 need to give money to people who are
6 going to use our money to fight us." So
7 in spite of the fact that I had done an
8 excellent job, this man basically told
9 me, "well, screw you, I'm not paying ya
10 because I don't have to, you're an
11 Apostate." Well, that pissed me off,
12 because not only do they cast you out of
13 the home you do have, and you are
14 supposed to go get tough and die, they
15 try to hold you back from collecting the
16 resources that might have made it easier
17 for you or giving you some assistance or
18 that leg up to get your own start in the
19 world. And it wasn't just one person
20 they did that to. They poisoned a lot of
21 people against paying up for work that I
22 had done. That's how I personally became
23 involved with it.
24 But there are instances of boys who
25 as young as -- the youngest one I
26 personally know of was John Jessop. And
27 at age 13 this boy showed up on my
28 doorstep. I had a rental home down there
29 in Hurricane after I had left Colorado
30 City. And this boy's brothers came and
31 dropped him off on my doorstep with a bag
32 of clothes and said, "he can't stay in my
33 mom's house anymore. Warren says he
34 can't stay there." I says, "well, he's
35 13 years old. You can't throw out your
36 13-year-old brother." "We don't have a
37 choice. If we don't do it then Warren
38 will throw us out too." And they just
39 left him. He's a young kid.
40 However, Dan Fischer caught wind of
41 some of the stuff that was going on and
42 he gathered up these other plaintiffs.
43 And how we wound up with the name
44 Lost Boys is beyond me, because I'm very
45 good with directions. I drive a truck,
46 for Christ's sake, I can find addresses
47 better than anybody you'll ever meet.
33
1 Right? I don't get lost. And on top of

2 that, excuse me, people, I'm 25 fucking
3 years old. Where does a boy turn into a
4 man? Somewhere between 18 and 21, by and
5 large.
6 Anyway, case in point, I don't like
7 the name Lost Boys. However, that's a
8 moniker we wound up with due to different
9 media channels and I don't know what all.
10 The case was filed as a class action
11 against the FLDS church and the UEP
12 trust. And the original charge that we
13 brought against them was alienation of
14 affection, because due to religious
15 influence these parents were turning
16 their backs on their own children, et
17 cetera, or poisoning my previous
18 employers against me.
19 We filed the case. And Warren Jeffs
20 got this amazing revelation from god or
21 his crystal ball or Jamal the janitor or
22 wherever the hell he gets them from, that
23 he wasn't supposed to reply to our case.
24 His directive to the people was to answer
25 them nothing. So the case goes into
26 default. And as soon as we had a default
27 we were in a position to lift that trust.
28 We could have went in there and started
29 selling off property and attaching levies
30 and shit and stuff until we had our
31 monetary amount, which I don't remember
32 the dollar amount of because it was never
33 much discussed by us, because the case
34 wasn't about monetary gain in the first
35 place. What we were trying to do was
36 shine a light on what was going on. That
37 was the idea. I mean, the case was
38 really just a sideshow for the main
39 attraction was the way we were seeing it.
40 But anyhow, we find ourselves in this
41 unique position of being winners of this
42 lawsuit by default. And Roger called a
43 meeting of all the plaintiffs and we sat
44 down and we said, "well, what do we do
45 now? Go in there and start ripping
46 people out of houses and selling it and
47 laugh all the way to the bank or what?"
34
1 And him and I discussed it at length in

2 absence of the other clients and I told
3 him, I says, "no, no, no, I don't think
4 anybody should seize a damn thing on
5 default, because we have an opportunity
6 to do something incredible, and that is
7 lay aside our personal gain and use this
8 as a way to get our foot in the door to
9 shut down Warren Jeffs and his thugs and
10 secure these properties so people will
11 quit getting kicked out of their homes or
12 having their homes threatened if they
13 don't give up their wife or what have
14 ya."
15 So Roger and Greg did an awesome
16 job, working diligently together, I mean,
17 just night and day toward that end. I
18 actually even got to come here and push
19 quite a bit of paper with them. It's the
20 most boring job I've ever had in my life,
21 so kudos to you people who can stand
22 being lawyers or paralegals or anything
23 attached to it. But I actually got to
24 work with them and that was a good
25 experience, in spite of how bad it bored
26 me. But they did a really good job of
27 pulling resources of the Utah AG's office
28 and the Arizona AG's office, to say,
29 look, these boys are poised and ready to
30 loot this trust if that's what you want
31 them to do, but we would rather have this
32 matter called in for review and for
33 hearing, because now we're saying, look,
34 this trust is not being administered,
35 this trust is not being looked after,
36 this trust is in trouble, it has no
37 guardians.
38 Q That's the UEP trust?
39 A Exactly. That's how Bruce Wisan got
40 appointed to that position. We used the
41 fact that they had not responded to our
42 lawsuit as a way to prove that nobody
43 cared about it anymore. And the second
44 there was nobody there to care about it
45 anymore, then they quickly appointed a
46 substitute trustee, which was Mr. Wisan.
47 And they had effectively taken control of
35
1 the trust away from Warren Jeffs and his

2 cohorts down there.
3 However, now, as we stand today,
4 that's been appealed. Warren Jeffs'
5 conviction on the rape as an accomplice
6 charge in Utah has been appealed, and I'm
7 pretty sure these lawyers will have this
8 stuff buried in such a shit storm of
9 paperwork that nobody's gonna know where
10 it's going for the next three and a half
11 years or -- that's about my rough
12 estimation anyway.
13 I don't know how it's all gonna
14 shake out, but the ultimate goal of that
15 lawsuit wasn't for me to line my pockets
16 or anyone else to line theirs. It was to
17 try to make a change that could better
18 the lives of thousands of people. And I
19 hope that what we did does ultimately
20 wind up being beneficial to the people we
21 wanted to help because, as it stands,
22 none of us gained anything from it. We
23 wound up with three acres apiece, I
24 think, a property that's probably worth
25 around $20,000 a share.
26 Q Down in Colorado City?
27 A Yeah. That's what we took as an actual
28 -- in terms of actual hard copy
29 settlement, where we could have taken
30 everything. But we were content with
31 just that little piece. And the only
32 reason why I suggested that or wanted
33 that is because that is our heritage,
34 that is stuff that we worked to
35 contribute to. And it's undeveloped
36 property. We didn't want property that
37 had homes that were going to displace a
38 family on it. We wanted the undeveloped
39 property for that very reason. And
40 that's just, as far as I'm concerned, I
41 don't know if it's a sentimental value
42 thing or if it's all the hours of sweat
43 and tears I put into building roads down
44 there and putting pipes in the ground and
45 stringing power lines, but that place is
46 a part of me and I guess I wanted a part
47 of it, and we each got just a little
36
1 piece. That's all that came to us in the

2 way of personal gain was some dirt, which
3 they have plenty of. And, I don't know,
4 I imagine if their appeal goes through
5 they might appeal and contest our
6 settlement too and get that back. Who
7 knows. But I don't care if they do.
8 Because even if, at the end of the day,
9 they manage to get all this stuff through
10 court and everything that Roger and Greg
11 worked so hard for and we all tried to
12 accomplish is for nothing, I still feel
13 better about the situation, because at
14 least we went to battle, even if we got
15 our ass kicked. And I can live with
16 getting my ass kicked, but I can't live
17 with being a coward and not going to
18 battle. That's not acceptable. But
19 that's where our case stands right now.
20 It's pretty much being appealed. I don't
21 honestly have any way of knowing which
22 way it's going to go or how it's going to
23 shake out.
24 Q Okay. Well, I think I've -- you'll be
25 relieved to know I've run out of
26 questions, Rich.
27 A Awesome.
28 Q I appreciate your time today and I'm sure
29 the court will as well.
30
31 (VIDEO OFF)
32
33 THE COURT: Take a break.
34 THE CLERK: Order in court.
35
36 (MORNING RECESS)
37
39 THE COURT: Sorry for that. I can assure you I was not
40 resting and enjoying. Thank you. This one is?
41 MS. ZALTZ: My Lord, this one is Paula Barrett.
42
43 (VIDEO PLAYED)
44
45 Q Hi, Paula. It's Karen Horsman speaking.
46 I've got Eva Ross with me and we're both
47 lawyers from the Ministry of the Attorney
37
Video evidence of Paula Barrett
1 General in British Columbia, Canada.

2 We've explained that to you; right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And you're Paula Barrett and we're
5 sitting here in the home of your sisters,
6 Rena and Kathleen in Anacortes,
7 Washington?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And you're here visiting, you normally
10 live in Utah; is that right?
11 A That's right.
12 Q And we've explained to you that up in
13 Canada we have a reference that the court
14 is going to hear about our polygamy
15 prohibition in the Criminal Code of
16 Canada?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And do you understand that the court is
19 going to be asked to answer the question
20 of whether that provision is
21 constitutional or not?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And we've explained to you that Eva and I
24 have been talking to people and trying to
25 just gather information from people who
26 have experienced life in a polygamist
27 community?
28 A Yes.
29 Q And you've kindly agreed to share your
30 story with us?
31 A Yes, I sure would.
32 Q And you understand that the video that
33 we're taking right now, it might be put
34 into evidence at the reference?
35 A Yes.
36 Q And you understand the importance of
37 being truthful in what you say today?
38 A Yes, I do.
39 Q Paula, you're the daughter of Clyde
40 Mackert and his first wife Midge; is that
41 right?
42 A That's right.
43 Q So you grew up in Salt Lake City; is that
44 right?
45 A Yes.
46 Q And Rena and Kathleen are daughters of
47 one of Clyde's other wives, Myra?
38
1 A Yes.
2 Q And, Paula, perhaps we could just start
3 by having you explain to us, I know we've
4 talked about, that you have a mental
5 disability?
6 A Yes, I do.
7 Q Can you explain to us what that is?
8 A Well, before I got married I found out
9 through my parents that I was mentally
10 retarded. I had bad kidneys, one kidney
11 was completely shut down and the other
12 one was -- I almost lost the use of my
13 other kidney, you know, it just got bad.
14 And I -- I grew up around loving parents
15 and they taught me -- well, they guided
16 my footsteps in the way of the heavenly
17 father, and once again I had no problems
18 with them and anything I wanted to talk
19 over I would take -- either talk to my
20 father and my mother about, they sat down
21 and just really listened to me and helped
22 me out with my years as a child.
23 Q And so it was a disability you've had
24 since birth?
25 A Yes, it has.
26 Q And so you grew up in Salt Lake City and
27 you were in a polygamist family; is that
28 right?
29 A That's correct.
30 Q Do you recall what you were taught about
31 marriage as you were growing up?
32 A I was taught that being a plural wife is
33 more fun because it gives you the
34 perspective from a husband or sister wife
35 that you would be able to cope and be
36 happy with the atmosphere, and you would
37 work together and do things together as
38 team work. And we did -- my father
39 always taught me never to ignore
40 warnings, like the premonition I had
41 three months before my brother Phillip
42 and my other three brothers were in a
43 severe car accident. I had that three
44 months before it happened. My heavenly
45 father was trying to get me -- to tell me
46 what I said what happened would take
47 place, and for me -- for them not to go
39
1 out. I tried to tell my father and

2 mother that and they didn't believe me
3 till it happened. Then it dawned on them
4 and they turned to me and said, "you were
5 right." I said, "I was trying to tell
6 you but you were so wound up and
7 everything else that you didn't listen
8 until it happened."
9 Q And as far as the religious teachings in
10 your house went, Paula, would you go to
11 church services or --
12 A Yes. I went to church services, I went
13 to Fireside for six -- for six times.
14 And I met the man I was -- I didn't know
15 I was going to be married to at Fireside
16 through his daughter Laura.
17 Q And when you were growing up and you got
18 these religious teachings about plural
19 marriage, did you always understand that
20 one day you would be placed as a wife as
21 well?
22 A I didn't. I understood I was going to be
23 placed as a wife, not a second wife. I
24 thought I would be placed as a first
25 wife.
26 Q Why did -- why would you rather be placed
27 as a first wife?
28 A So I could have more understanding, more
29 claim with my husband and do things and
30 help him, and not as much as I could be
31 part of his life and share his pain and
32 his joy and things, and just be there
33 side by side by him.
34 Q And when the time came that you actually
35 did learn who you were going to marry,
36 can you explain to us how that happened?
37 A Well, actually, I knew I belonged to
38 Dallas Leslie Barrett the Third since I
39 was 12 or 13 years old and never said a
40 word about it to my parents, because I
41 didn't know how they'd react -- react. I
42 didn't know if they were going to be
43 happy or if they were going to be angry,
44 because I knew.
45 Q How did you know?
46 A Heavenly father told me in a dream that I
47 was going to be married to him. But I
40
1 was not going to say a thing to my

2 parents until my father told me Sunday
3 morning, that Sunday morning, that I was
4 going to get married to Dallas Barrett.
5 And then I told him that I knew that was
6 the man I was going to marry ever since I
7 was 12 or 13 years old.
8 Q And how old were you when your dad told
9 you that you'd be marrying Dallas?
10 A I was 20, going on 21.
11 Q And he told you on a Sunday?
12 A Yeah. See, when any of his -- any of the
13 polygamist children, girls, get ready for
14 marriage they would take them to the
15 priest they had. And in this case that
16 was Leroy Johnson. That was the priest
17 they had. And he went and took -- my
18 father took myself, Kathy and Rowina and
19 Roberta and my stepsister Doreen
20 [indecipherable], and he asked anybody if
21 we knew anyone we wanted to be placed by
22 and I had his tongue -- his name on the
23 end of my tongue but I didn't say it.
24 Then after he got through talking to
25 us he said, "I want you to do something.
26 I want you to say a prayer and ask the
27 heavenly father to give me the revelation
28 to know where you belong."
29 Q He said this to you?
30 A He said this to all of us. And all of
31 us, except for my stepsister Doreen,
32 followed through.
33 Q And so was it after this meeting that you
34 just described that your dad told you
35 that it was Dallas that you were going to
36 be married?
37 A Yeah. He told me it was Dallas Barrett
38 the Third and that I was going to be
39 happy. And like I said before, I thought
40 being a second wife and coming into a
41 family, a plural marriage, would be fun
42 and exciting and you'd be working
43 together, but days after it turned to
44 nothing but pain and agony.
45 Q And so how long after your dad told you
46 did the wedding actually took place?
47 A The wedding took place on October 28th,
41
1 1974.
2 Q And who performed the ceremony, do you
3 remember?
4 A A name -- a man by the name of Guy
5 Musser. He was one of the priests they
6 had back then that Doreen went and saw
7 and was placed by.
8 Q Okay. And so you were Dallas's second
9 wife?
10 A I was the second wife.
11 Q And was Dallas already living with his
12 first wife when you moved in?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And how many children did Dallas have
15 with his first wife?
16 A He had seven.
17 Q And then can you explain to us what your
18 life was like after you moved in with
19 Dallas and his first wife?
20 A My life changed from being understanding,
21 being a type of woman that would
22 understand, but having sister wife by my
23 side, pure hell. Every day, day in and
24 day out. I couldn't do anything, I
25 couldn't go to the store, I couldn't take
26 walks, I couldn't do anything I wanted to
27 do. I had to put it aside and take care
28 of the children and clean his house.
29 Q Did you have any children with Dallas?
30 A Yes, I did.
31 Q How many children did you have?
32 A I had seven. Six [indecipherable] was
33 Dallas's first wife.
34 Q And how many pregnancies did you have?
35 A I had nine.
36 Q Nine. How many miscarriages did you
37 have?
38 A I had four miscarriages.
39 Q So four miscarriages and seven children;
40 is that right?
41 A That's right.
42 Q And what was life like for you after your
43 children were born?
44 A It was pure joy. I spent -- I did most
45 of my time for the children. When it
46 came to helping them out, I had the
47 money, I'd give it to them and I didn't
42
1 want any of it back. That's why my

2 children respect me and love me so much
3 like they do now, because I stood up for
4 all of them, my oldest and my youngest.
5 Q What was their relationship like with
6 Dallas?
7 A It was -- they hated him from day one,
8 all of them. My oldest son hated his
9 father. Him and his father did not get
10 along. From day one they just fought.
11 Papa crazy. And yet he tried to make it
12 right. He tried to talk to him and
13 things and my oldest son just wouldn't
14 listen.
15 Q And what about your other children, what
16 was their relationship like with their
17 dad?
18 A Same as my oldest son, they all hated
19 their father, because they didn't like --
20 because when they seen me crying they'd
21 put their hands on my back and I'd
22 practically jump out of my skin. That's
23 when they knew that their father and his
24 first wife were beating on me.
25 Q Like physically beating you?
26 A Physically and mentally.
27 Q And you were saying that before you got
28 married you'd been told that the plural
29 marriage would create a team and it would
30 be happy for you?
31 A Exactly.
32 Q And when you were actually living with
33 Dallas and his first wife, did it ever
34 work as a team for you?
35 A Never. We never did anything together.
36 We never cooked dinner together, we never
37 -- it was pure -- my children and me were
38 like Cinderella doing all the housework
39 and staying up late at night. Going to
40 bed late, and early the next morning, and
41 then have to get up again at 6 o'clock.
42 Q Were there ever any -- did you ever have
43 any interactions with Dallas that were
44 warm or intimate?
45 A None. He raped me shortly after we were
46 married.
47 Q And your children at some point in time
43
1 were taken by the state; is that right?

2 A That's right. My youngest -- my youngest
3 son was -- was seven, my youngest
4 daughter was four when they were taken.
5 Q And can you tell us what happened?
6 A Well, that -- that day my -- my -- his
7 first wife didn't like what she was
8 seeing. I mean, she acted like she was a
9 good mother and tried to get the house
10 cleaned up, and they -- they -- then she
11 went and told everybody else that I was a
12 bad mother, and everybody agreed with her
13 that I should have my children taken
14 away. So she called the police up and
15 had them come in the house and physically
16 remove my children. And I never got to
17 share their birthdays, I missed all their
18 birthdays, I missed all their happiness,
19 I missed all the mothering love, I
20 wanted, and I just -- I was just torn
21 apart. I wanted to end it when they took
22 them.
23 Q And did you still -- were you still
24 living with Dallas and his first wife
25 after this happened?
26 A I had to. I couldn't live without them
27 getting mad at me and trying to drive me
28 back.
29 Q What was your life like after that, after
30 your children left?
31 A Pure hell. Never had a moment's peace.
32 Get out and get a job, I'd come home with
33 money and he'd get mad because I wouldn't
34 give him the money.
35 Q What kind of jobs did you do, Paula?
36 A I worked at fast-food places, second-hand
37 store, and a -- department stores, and
38 all that. And between my stepsister and
39 my X, I never -- I lost all the jobs that
40 I liked.
41 Q Which stepsister?
42 A Doreen. She abused me before and after I
43 got married, as well as my X and his
44 first wife.
45 Q And that was before you got married, the
46 abuse with Doreen?
47 A Yes, it was.
44
1 Q Had you gone to school growing up?

2 A Oh, I guess -- when I grew up my mother
3 tried to get me to go to different
4 schools, and the teacher said I was too
5 smart. I didn't go to school until the
6 fifth grade.
7 Q I meant how many years did you go?
8 A I went to school about -- for about six
9 years after that. My school was like
10 junior high. School -- and my brother
11 Phillip and I went there and that was
12 Phillip's last year of high school, my
13 second -- my first year, junior high.
14 Q And, I'm sorry, I interrupted you because
15 we were talking about the jobs that --
16 A Yeah, my jobs were just hard for me to
17 stay with. They expected too much, they
18 expected me the way I did things, ran
19 things, and my X didn't like that, I
20 guess, me having money, getting money.
21 He gets his social security. And I just
22 tried to do everything I could to please
23 him. Did everything, cooperated with his
24 first wife, combed her hair when I needed
25 -- when she needed it. And then I just
26 couldn't hack it anymore.
27 Q And when you worked, you were saying that
28 Dallas expected you to give your wages
29 over to him; is that right?
30 A Yeah. Every time we went -- I got my
31 cheque, he'd get me to cash it and give
32 it to him. And when I didn't, it got him
33 angry.
34 Q And did the abuse that you've been
35 describing, did that continue after your
36 kids left?
37 A Yeah, after my kids left.
38 Q And when you had all the -- you said four
39 miscarriages and seven births, so 11
40 pregnancies altogether; is that right?
41 A Yes.
42 Q Did you discuss with Dallas having
43 children or --
44 A No. I told Dallas I'd like to have
45 children. And he said, okay, let's do
46 it. And so we did it. And the first
47 time, the first four miscarriages, I'd go
45
1 to the doctor, he'd drop me off at the

2 doctor's office, he wouldn't go in with
3 me, and so when I went in, I sat down and
4 the doctor did an ultrasound on the baby
5 to see how the baby was doing, and found
6 the baby had blood all the way around
7 which indicated to the doctor that I was
8 having a miscarriage and that I needed to
9 get the baby out and get that done before
10 I started bleeding or it was going to be
11 bad. Well, he didn't listen, every time
12 I told him what the doctor said. He'd
13 turn to me and say, "how do you know
14 you're not having a miscarriage?" He
15 wouldn't take me until I started bleeding
16 and passed out. I passed out on my
17 mother twice and on mother Virk once.
18 Q When you were having the miscarriages?
19 A When I was having the miscarriages. And
20 it made me -- made my mother so angry.
21 And then my oldest son came to the
22 hospital after my last two miscarriages,
23 and started bawling and begging me not to
24 leave him.
25 Q Did you talk when you were -- when you
26 had this abusive situation that you were
27 in, Paula, with Dallas and his first
28 wife, did you talk to your mom and dad
29 about it?
30 A I talked to my mother and father about
31 it. And they said, "well, what's going
32 on?" And I told them what happened at
33 that time. And my dad saw a handprint on
34 my face when he backhanded me across the
35 face. And so I went and had a talk to
36 him and told him. He said, "how can you
37 put up with that?" And I said, "I
38 can't," and I started crying and saying,
39 "I can't put up with it. I don't want
40 to. I'm scared of him and his first
41 wife." My kids are left there alone. He
42 even left my older son there when I was
43 over at my father's for a whole day,
44 wouldn't come back, got home late at
45 night. And my son called me on the
46 phone, "mom, I don't know what to do, I'm
47 alone." And I said, "well, where's the
46
1 others?" And he said, "they've all gone

2 with father to the store," and left him
3 all alone in that house, alone.
4 Q And how old was he?
5 A He was four years old, four or five years
6 old. He was left alone in that house all
7 day.
8 Q And when you had this discussion with
9 your mom and your dad about what was
10 going on, did they suggest to you
11 leaving?
12 A They suggested that I stay with him until
13 -- until my father when and told,
14 reported it to Uncle Roy what happened,
15 he reported it to Uncle Roy and Uncle Roy
16 told me to tough it out.
17 Q Tough it out?
18 A Tough it out. I couldn't do anything
19 else but tough it out. Until it finally
20 hit me after my father passed away.
21 Q And did Uncle Roy ever have any help for
22 you other than that?
23 A No. I was on my own. And I just -- I
24 finally realized that Friday or that
25 Thanksgiving day before then I needed to
26 get away. Something was just gnawing at
27 me, leave and get away from him, you'll
28 be happier if you do. And I went to my
29 daughter's during the day. And on Friday
30 night I would go and do my laundry and
31 take care of my cat and her kittens and
32 pack up and get ready and go back over.
33 Well, this one Friday I went home and he
34 said, "By the way, your cats are gone."
35 Because I'd get home and I'd take care of
36 them. He had nothing to do with them.
37 And I said, "what do you mean they're
38 gone?" He says, "yeah, they're gone."
39 And I said, "what are you telling me?"
40 He said, "somebody came into the house
41 and took the cat." And I know for a fact
42 that he would not let anybody in the
43 house unless he knew they were in the
44 house. And I said, "tell me the truth,
45 did you let them come in and take my cat
46 and her kids away when you got home?"
47 And he said yes. And I said, "that tears
47
1 it. I'm outta here. Goodbye."

2 Q And when was this, Paula?
3 A When I was babysitting for my oldest
4 daughter Charlotte, when I was living
5 with her -- her, in her apartment. And
6 then I'd go over there and take care of
7 her and clean her house and take care of
8 the kids, and on weekends I'd go home and
9 do my laundry and rest up before I went
10 back over there.
11 Q So by the time that you were talking
12 about you were splitting your time
13 between your kids and Dallas's home?
14 We've kind of jumped forward here because
15 you talked to us about when your kids
16 were taken by the state. Were all six of
17 your children taken?
18 A All by my oldest son. He was the only
19 one who wasn't in the house when they
20 were taken because he'd -- like I said
21 before, he'd been through it. He knows
22 what it feels like to be abused, even in
23 a foster home, to be abused and
24 neglected, because he's been there.
25 Q And so how old was your oldest son when
26 that happened, when the state took your
27 kids?
28 A My oldest son, he was 20 when they took
29 him. When they took my other kids out of
30 the home, he was not home when they took
31 my other kids.
32 Q Okay. And so your other -- the other --
33 your five younger children, they were all
34 placed in foster care, is that right?
35 A Yeah. All five of them placed in foster
36 care.
37 Q And is that where they were raised, then,
38 was in foster care?
39 A It was. I missed them. I missed all
40 their birthdays, I missed being with
41 them. When they were just a little ways
42 from the house, I couldn't go to the
43 school where they were, they'd yank them
44 out. I couldn't see them. I was just
45 torn up inside. She turned me in and had
46 my kids taken.
47 Q But you've got a -- you have a
48
1 relationship now again with your kids?

2 A Yes, I do, with all my children. And I
3 just call them up and talk to them or
4 text them a message, talk to them and
5 have them respond back. It's just
6 beautiful the way my oldest son and I are
7 really close.
8 Q And your daughter, I understand, is
9 building a room for you to live in in her
10 home with her husband?
11 A She's got a three-bedroom house that she
12 had built from ground up, and it's an
13 absolutely beautiful place, just
14 gorgeous. I love it because I've got a
15 bed -- bed to sleep on and she's more
16 respectful to me. She wants to give me
17 my own bit of privacy and that, and I can
18 go in and take a shower and go back into
19 my room and get dressed without having to
20 have kids running around and trying to
21 walk in on me. She's just more loving
22 and understanding. She calls me up every
23 day just to make sure I'm okay.
24 Q And so you've left the church, then,
25 permanently now?
26 A I've left the polygamist church
27 permanently, yes.
28 Q And can you explain to us what the final
29 -- how that finally happened for you?
30 A That weekend, on Thanksgiving night,
31 2008, I was -- I was at home getting my
32 last minute stuff together and putting
33 suitcases, and he told me that he wanted
34 me to leave and he wanted me to tell my
35 daughter that. She goes, "Mom, I'm happy
36 for you." She says, "I don't want you
37 ever to feel like you've been mistreated
38 again," because I always cried on the
39 phone to my children when my husband, my
40 X had abused me, cry to them on the
41 phone. Finally Lillian, my daughter,
42 picked me up and took me to get married
43 and they got married January 12 -- or
44 February 12, is when my daughter got
45 married, my second daughter got married.
46 And she brought me over. And I said,
47 "what about your father?" She said,
49
1 "never mind him. We just want you to

2 come because we don't like what he's
3 doing to you."
4 Q And so your children that were raised in
5 foster care, are any of them in the FLDS
6 church?
7 A My two youngest ones, my youngest son is,
8 because he found out through him that
9 he's home priested now, my youngest son
10 is home priested and he goes to church
11 every Sunday.
12 Q To the FLDS church?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And the rest of your children are not,
15 they're out of the church; is that right?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And so, Paula, you were explaining that
18 on Thanksgiving in 2008 was when Dallas
19 told you to leave. And so was that when
20 you finally left his home for good?
21 A Yeah. I finally left his home with their
22 -- when I tried to get my -- see, that's
23 another thing I wanted to share, is
24 whenever I had a TV set, my TV set would
25 break down. I wouldn't have to worry
26 about buying a TV set because my youngest
27 -- second oldest son, when he went to buy
28 TV sets he'd buy one for him and one for
29 me. And he's just been a loving son ever
30 since, because every time my TV would
31 break down he'd bring me a brand-new one.
32 He's more loving and more caring for me
33 than he knows I am for him.
34 Q And so when you left Dallas's home about
35 Thanksgiving, did you -- were you able to
36 take your things with you or --
37 A I took two suitcases full of things that
38 I had to take them with me, but I lost
39 everything else.
40 Q Like what sort of things did you lose?
41 A I lost my genealogy about my sisters and
42 their families and my mother and father,
43 their families, my grandma and grandpa on
44 my mother's side and my grandpa and
45 grandma on my father's side, and my
46 pictures, I had my precious pictures, I
47 had, I lost those. I lost a glass clock
50
1 and I lost my daughter's teddy bear that

2 they gave her at the hospital. Primary
3 Childrens Hospital.
4 Q So when you say you lost those things, is
5 that because Dallas wouldn't let you take
6 them or --
7 A He wouldn't give me time to get
8 everything out before they sold the
9 house.
10 Q And how -- did you have any contact with
11 Dallas or his first wife after you left
12 that day?
13 A No, I never did.
14 Q And is he still alive right now?
15 A Dallas is dead. He died about a month
16 ago.
17 Q Just a month ago?
18 A He just recently died.
19 Q Yeah. Do you know anything about whether
20 he's left any estate or --
21 A He left his estate, he made a will out,
22 and in that will he declared that his
23 first wife and her children get
24 everything, his money, everything, and me
25 and my children get nothing. When he
26 kicked me out he kicked me out with no
27 money, nothing.
28 Q And you weren't a legal wife?
29 A No, I was not.
30 Q So, Paula, you've talked to us about what
31 you were taught growing up about plural
32 marriage. What do you think now?
33 A I think it was a big mistake, going into
34 a plural marriage.
35 Q Why?
36 A Because if it wasn't I'd still be
37 married, I'd still be together and we'd
38 still have a family. But it was a big
39 mistake, knowing his first wife hated me
40 from day one.
41 Q So it wasn't anything that ever worked
42 out for you?
43 A Nothing worked out for me, no.
44 Q Paula, thank you very much for answering
45 my questions. Is there anything else
46 that you wanted to make sure that you
47 said on this videotape, that you think is
51
1 important for the court to hear?

2 A All I want to say is I don't want anybody
3 thinking plural marriage is a happy
4 excitement thing for them. After what
5 I've been through, I'm totally against
6 plural marriage. Make every law, do
7 everything you can to stop it, before
8 anyone else gets hurt, possibly killed.
9 MS. HORSMAN: Thanks, Paula.
10 Eva, was there anything else you
11 wanted to ask Paula then?
12 MS. ROSS:
13 Q Paula, if you don't mind, I just do have
14 a couple of questions.
15 A Okay.
16 Q I'm just going back through some of the
17 things you said. And one of the things
18 you said is that your children love you
19 because you stood up for all of them.
20 Can you tell -- can you tell us what you
21 meant by that?
22 A Well, any time my children got in trouble
23 with their father I'd stick up for them.
24 I'd tell him, "no way. You're not going
25 to hurt them. You're not going to kick
26 them out. You're not going to do
27 anything to them. You're not going to
28 call the police on them," because that's
29 what he wanted to do with my oldest son
30 [indecipherable]. And I said, "any time
31 when it comes to talking things over with
32 him I'll stand behind you, but when it
33 comes to the life of my family," meaning
34 my children, "I'll stand behind them
35 before I'll stand behind you." And I
36 stood up for them and I protected them as
37 much as I could, and I wouldn't -- I
38 wouldn't let their father call the police
39 on them.
40 Q What was your -- what was Dallas's first
41 wife's relationship with your -- with
42 your children?
43 A Nothing. When I was at work -- when I
44 was at work she'd have them sit on the
45 couch like dummies. If they moved she'd
46 hit them. She wouldn't let them move
47 until I got home. And then she let them
52
1 get off the couch and they'd come running

2 crying, scared to death. I mean, most of
3 them wet their pants because they were so
4 scared to move. She wouldn't let them do
5 anything. When my oldest -- we lived in
6 Rose Park, my oldest son -- she had some
7 Mexican coins that were missing and she'd
8 blame my son, as well as her two boys,
9 and that poor kid, what she made them --
10 my husband, their father, made them go
11 two weeks without nothing to eat. No
12 food, nothing, for two solid weeks. My
13 son was so sick because he hadn't had any
14 food to eat. I'd sometimes sneak food,
15 sneak a roll or a crust of bread up there
16 and I'd sit there and he would devour
17 that like he was starving for years, and
18 it was two weeks they went without
19 eating. Came home, did their chores and
20 went straight to bed.
21 Q And can you -- what was your relationship
22 like with your -- with the first wife's
23 children?
24 A They -- they liked -- I got along with
25 them. I mean, we communicated together.
26 We were best friends for a while till
27 things started getting -- started
28 happening where their children go crying
29 to their mother and tell them that my
30 children did such and such a thing, and
31 then all hell would break lose.
32 Q So would you say that your status in the
33 house was different than the first
34 wife's?
35 A It was different. I mean, I did things
36 the way I was taught by my parents. My
37 mother and father taught me to do team
38 work, get everybody, say, come on, let's
39 go do team work and get things done.
40 Instead of just sitting there doing --
41 expecting the other people to get it
42 done, is the way my parents taught me and
43 that's the way that I thought I would
44 deal with Betty's children, but
45 apparently it didn't work out that way.
46 MS. ROSS: And I think those are my
47 questions. Thank you very much for
53
Video evidence of Jorjina Broadbent
1 talking to us today.
2
3 (VIDEO OFF)
4
5 THE COURT: So let's take the lunch break. But, Mr.
6 Jones, did you hear anything from --
7 MR. JONES: Indeed, My Lord, sorry. That's fine for
8 the 25th through the 28th, that week. That would
9 free you up on the 24th.
10 THE COURT: Yes, it would. Thank you.
11 THE CLERK: Order in court. Court is adjourned to 2
12 p.m.
13
14 (NOON RECESS)
15
17 MR. JONES: Thank you, My Lord. The final video of the
18 day is Jorjina Bennett [sic] and it's about 45
19 minutes.
20 THE COURT: The crowd has noticeably thinned. Thank
21 you. The name again?
22 MR. JONES: Jorjina Bennett, and the spelling is
23 unusual, it's J-o-r-j-i-n-a. I'm sorry, Broadbent
24 is the last name. J-o-r-j-i-n-a Broadbent.
25 THE COURT: Thank you.
26
27 (VIDEO PLAYED)
28
29 Q Hi, Jorjina, my name, as I've explained,
30 is Leah Greathead, and I'm a lawyer with
31 the Attorney General of British Columbia
32 and I'm involved in a case that's looking
33 at whether our Criminal Code provision
34 prohibiting polygamy is constitutional or
35 not, and in that context we've been
36 meeting with people like yourself who
37 have experience living in a polygamist
38 community to provide some firsthand
39 evidence and information for the court.
40 A M'mm-hmm.
41 Q And so you're Jorjina Broadbent?
42 A Yes.
43 Q And you were born into a polygamist group
44 that's become known as the FLDS?
45 A Yes.
46 Q And that was the Fundamental Church of
47 Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
54
1 A Yes.
2 Q Can you explain the role of polygamy in
3 the FLDS?
4 A I guess polygamy is just where a man can
5 have more than one wife or more than one
6 wives and have as many as he can, and as
7 long as he's true and faithful to the
8 prophet then he can excel and have up to
9 50, 60 wives, to get to the celestial
10 kingdom.
11 Q And polygamy is, as I understand, is one
12 of the -- is the fundamental principle of
13 the FLDS?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Fundamental tenet?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And what about the role of women within
18 the FLDS? What are you taught as part of
19 the role women are to take?
20 A We are to be submissive and obedient and
21 give ourselves to our husband. And we
22 have no opinion, we're not supposed to
23 have a choice in anything, we're just
24 supposed to do what our husbands ask us
25 to do to get to the celestial kingdom.
26 Q Have you ever heard to phrase "keep
27 sweet"?
28 A Oh, yeah. Keep sweet no matter what.
29 Q And so what does that mean in practical
30 terms?
31 A That means that nothing is supposed to
32 stand in your way of keeping sweet and
33 doing what your husband wants.
34 Q And what about the role of men, what's
35 their role within the FLDS?
36 A They're to teach their families to obey
37 them and raise their children up in truth
38 and rightness and teach them that the
39 heavenly father and god are the same
40 person, are the same as the prophet, and
41 they're to be obedient to the prophet in
42 any directive that they're asked to do.
43 Q And how does marriage work? Do you get
44 to select who it is that you'll marry
45 within the FLDS?
46 A Back -- back when Roy Johnson and Rulon
47 was a little bit of -- was the prophets
55
1 you could go in and ask. I mean, you

2 could say, "well, I know somebody," or
3 the father would go in and say, "well, do
4 you have anybody in mind?" And they'd
5 say they'd take it up with the lord and
6 ask if that was the right person, and
7 sometimes it was. Sometimes they married
8 the person that thought or dreamt or
9 their father helped them decide. But my
10 marriage was a revelation from god and
11 that's how I met my husband.
12 Q And who had the revelation?
13 A It was Uncle Roy, Roy Johnson.
14 Q So how did you find out about who it was
15 you were to marry?
16 A Just a phone call. Roy Johnson called my
17 dad when I was living up here, I was 18,
18 and said he has a young man who wants to
19 come and see me. And that's how it went.
20 Q So did you marry someone your own age?
21 A James was three years older than me.
22 Q What about the experience of others, have
23 you seen or know of people who married
24 much older men?
25 A Yes. My sister Adrianna married Alan
26 Jeffs and he was 40 and she was 18 or 19.
27 Q And are there other examples that you
28 knew of?
29 A There's quite a few young girls that were
30 going to school with my daughter that
31 married older guys and married some men
32 who had only one wife, and they weren't
33 very old, they were in their 30s or even
34 25 or even some of them had just gotten
35 married, and they'd only been married a
36 year and had a baby and then they were
37 given another wife. It was like her
38 sister or something. And a lot of
39 sisters do marry the same men.
40 Q And so the marriage, I understand, is --
41 you're sealed in marriage for time and
42 all eternity?
43 A M'mm-hmm.
44 Q And so can you tell us about your
45 marriage ceremony, how that worked?
46 A It seals into -- the prophet goes into
47 you're sealed for time and all eternity
56
1 and you're to go and replenish, multiply

2 and replenish the earth.
3 Q And that means go and have lots of baby?
4 A Have as many children as you can. My
5 husband always said that it's not quality
6 we're looking for, it's quantity, how
7 many children we can have before this
8 life is up. And I'm, okay ...
9 Q And how many children did you have?
10 A I had 12.
11 Q And so just back then to the marriage
12 ceremony, who was there, was it Uncle
13 Roy?
14 A Uncle Roy married us.
15 Q And that's Leroy Johnson?
16 A Yeah, Leroy Johnson. When I was first up
17 -- when I was living up here, we were
18 married by the law, because I was the
19 first wife, and you did your blood tests
20 and all that stuff and did all that, and
21 then at the end of the week we drove down
22 to Colorado City and we were sealed by
23 Roy Johnson. But my mom was there, my
24 dad was there, my grandmas were there and
25 his mom and dad were there and a couple
26 of my sisters were there, so ...
27 Q And so, Jorjina, can you -- we'll go back
28 now and talk a little bit about your
29 childhood. Who are your parents?
30 A Bernard Depson and Delores Depson
31 [phonetic].
32 Q And did you have more than one mom
33 growing up?
34 A Yeah, Azora. Azora was our stepmom. But
35 she was just as bad as mom.
36 Q Right. And she was married to your dad
37 in a celestial marriage?
38 A Yeah. When I was born, then she married
39 my dad. And I was the sixth baby of
40 mom's.
41 Q And how many siblings do you have?
42 A 22.
43 Q 22. And how many children did your
44 mother have?
45 A Mom had 11 and Azora had 11.
46 Q And where did you grow up?
47 A I was born here in Murray, Utah, and I
57
1 went to school here, first grade -- or,

2 no, kindergarten. And then when I was
3 six, then my dad built a home in Colorado
4 City and moved mom and all her kids. And
5 Azora stayed up here, in the house up
6 here. Then I went to school down there
7 and we lived down there until I was 11.
8 And then my dad was asked by Roy Johnson
9 to bring the whole family from down there
10 in Colorado City to -- up here to the
11 house that he built in Riverton, so
12 that's where we all lived.
13 Q And when you said Murray, that's
14 somewhere fairly close to Salt Lake City?
15 A That's right here. In this area.
16 Q In Salt Lake --
17 A Yeah.
18 Q And I should have said, we're doing this
19 interview in Salt Lake City right now.
20 A Yeah, yeah. Murray's just another little
21 city here.
22 Q And Riverton is?
23 A Riverton is just another little city.
24 Q In the Salt Lake --
25 A In the river valley, yeah.
26 Q And so after you were 11 years old you
27 came back up and lived in Riverton here?
28 A Yes.
29 Q And how long did you stay in this area,
30 in Riverton?
31 A Until I was 18. I got married and then
32 we stayed up here for another year
33 because my husband was doing Amway with
34 his father and his brothers, so we stayed
35 up here for a good year. And then he was
36 broke and we needed a place to call our
37 own and start a family and so we moved to
38 Colorado City and got us a lot and
39 started building our home.
40 Q And what year was that?
41 A We got married in '81, so we moved down
42 in '82.
43 Q And when you were a kid, then, you did
44 school -- you moved to Colorado City when
45 you were five, so the age between you
46 were five and 11 were you --
47 A We were in the public schools down there.
58
1 Q In Colorado City?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And what was taught in the school in
4 Colorado City as you recall?
5 A Well, back then we had the pledge of
6 allegiance, we had prayer, we just did
7 everything that normal schools do.
8 Q And did you have a component -- a
9 religious component?
10 A We were just taught to be good, clean
11 citizens and be honest and teach your
12 children right from wrong, and that's
13 what the -- what everything was.
14 Q Right. And you had mentioned about women
15 being taught to be obedient to the
16 husband and to the prophet. Was that
17 part of what was taught in the schools?
18 A No. That wasn't taught in the schools.
19 Q No? You got that at home?
20 A That was at home, yeah. There was
21 certain things that they taught at the
22 schools because the school was a public
23 school. We had people from St. George
24 and Cedar and all over that came in and
25 taught at our schools.
26 Q Right.
27 A We had a principal that was -- Mr.
28 Gerber.
29 Q Right.
30 A He was a really fun principal.
31 Q Right, yeah. Were all the kids FLDS kids
32 or were there other --
33 A No. There was kids that were -- well,
34 there was a bunch of them that lived in
35 Centennial, and they still went to
36 church, but when it split, when Roy
37 Johnson died is when the split came
38 between Colorado City and Centennial, so
39 most of the people that were living in
40 Colorado City moved just over the hill,
41 and Centennial was actually called the
42 second ward.
43 Q And Centennial is another group that
44 practiced polygamy?
45 A Yeah. But they live it so totally
46 different, because they let the women cut
47 their hair, they let the women wear what
59
1 they want to wear, that's appropriate.

2 They still wanted to wear the longer
3 dresses, but not the same. They can wear
4 denim skirts with slits, they can wear
5 red, they can wear all different kinds of
6 things. And the prophet out there, I
7 think it was one of the Timpsons, Johnny
8 Timpson or something, and he was the one
9 that was telling them how to live, but
10 they had freedom to do what -- to have
11 their choices.
12 Q And so --
13 A I mean, they were allowed to just date,
14 the girls were allowed to date, they
15 could choose their husbands, stuff like
16 that, which was a no-no.
17 Q In FLDS?
18 A Right. No dating, no sex, no. None of
19 that stuff.
20 Q And you talked about the dress. What was
21 the dress requirement for women in
22 Colorado City in the FLDS community?
23 A Oh, it was the long prairie dresses, you
24 had the long dresses. And you could wear
25 -- we used to be able to wear floral
26 dresses and prints and ginghams and
27 checks, but that came to a stop in about
28 2003 or '4, and we were all supposed to
29 start wearing solid, plain colours that
30 were just basic. And that's what the
31 whole town started wearing, all the
32 girls, and all the boys were to wear
33 plain shirts, and most of them were
34 homemade, most of the wives made
35 everything, from underwear, but the boys
36 still got to wear jeans.
37 Q Right. And where was this coming from?
38 Was it a direction from the prophet or --
39 A Yes. Warren Jeffs.
40 Q Warren Jeffs was the prophet by then?
41 A Yes.
42 Q And was there a requirement -- could you
43 wear make-up?
44 A No make-up, no jewellery. You could only
45 have the ring that you were married in.
46 Even young girls that were in school and
47 stuff, they wanted to wear like a --
60
1 their birthstone or something, that was

2 off limits. So no make-up, you couldn't
3 cut your hair, you weren't supposed to
4 even trim your hair, but, oh, well,
5 that's what I did. I trimmed mine. I
6 kept it to where it was healthy and
7 stuff, so where I didn't have split ends.
8 Q Right, right. And did you have to wear
9 it in a certain style?
10 A Yes. We were supposed to either have it
11 in waves or poofs and you couldn't have
12 any hair on your face, you weren't
13 supposed to have any dangles or anything.
14 And you had to wear either a French braid
15 or you had to keep it up. You were
16 actually supposed to keep it up off your
17 shoulders as much as you could.
18 Q What would happen if you didn't?
19 A You'd get reprimanded. You were looked
20 at as like, you're not doing what you're
21 told, you're not doing what you're
22 supposed to, you're going to go to hell
23 or you're going to leave and all that,
24 so ...
25 Q And were you -- so you said you were the
26 first wife. And were you married in a
27 plural marriage situation?
28 A Well, no. It was just James and me for
29 about the first 16 years, and then Rachel
30 came into the family.
31 Q And how was it when Rachel came into the
32 family?
33 A It was awesome. We were best friends.
34 We did everything together. She was the
35 same size as I was. I had just barely
36 had Phillip, so Phillip was only like
37 five or six months old, and she was --
38 she was just so awesome. She had so many
39 good qualities and stuff about her. She
40 was just so fun to do things with. She
41 just had a great personality. And then
42 things started changing as soon as she
43 started having children. She just -- it
44 was really hard to watch her raise her
45 babies, and she didn't care about them,
46 she didn't want to take care of them. It
47 was really hard for my older girls who
61
1 wanted to go and pick them up and take

2 care of them and she would just yell at
3 them and say, "no. I'll take care of
4 them when I want to and when I feel like
5 it." And things just started changing
6 and James started treated her children
7 totally different than mine and I'm like,
8 whatever. You can be with her. I will
9 -- this is my home, take care of my home,
10 go to school. I'm just going to take
11 care of my kids and take care of her kids
12 then. I mean, it was hard. It's hard
13 not to have feelings and want to just
14 like -- what am I supposed to do? This
15 is not right, it's not right for one mom
16 to be dumped with everything and the
17 other mom just doesn't feel like doing
18 anything. And the husband keeps telling
19 her, "you've got to help too, you've got
20 to be a part of this." This was hard.
21 Q And your husband was Richard?
22 A James.
23 Q Oh, James, sorry. I'm sorry. And you
24 mentioned James started treating your
25 children differently than hers?
26 A Yeah, because he says hers were sweeter
27 and more obedient than mine. Mine were
28 rebellious because I was rebellious, and
29 lots of different things he kept bringing
30 up. And I'm like, so, what's your point?
31 So I just, K, whatever. I mean, her kids
32 were just as little stinkers as any other
33 kids. I mean, her kids weren't perfect.
34 Nobody's kids are perfect.
35 Q What happened, did your roles and
36 responsibilities change when she wasn't
37 looking after her children?
38 A Yeah. I was -- I had the yard to do, we
39 had a two-acre lot, 13-bedroom home, and
40 most of the time it was me and my girls
41 that cleaned the house, and did the meals
42 and did the yard. I loved the yard work,
43 so I got to do all the yard work and
44 stuff. She didn't like to go outside
45 very much. And she was downright lazy.
46 And there was a lot of times that -- we
47 had a lot of fun together, and then
62
1 things started changing, no more dances,

2 no more programs, no more plays, you
3 couldn't go visit your mom, you couldn't
4 go see your sisters, you couldn't go to
5 lunch anymore. And it made Rachel and I
6 a little bit closer into the
7 relationship, but it just started getting
8 on our nerves really bad because we just
9 couldn't go and do things or go visit
10 somebody and talk and start being a
11 friend, after all the friends we used to
12 have. It was really hard.
13 Q Right. And did you have to take care of
14 her children as well?
15 A Yes. And then if I was gone she would
16 take care of my children. And -- it was
17 really hard to leave my kids with her
18 because she had such a temper. I mean,
19 she's beat my kids, she's pulled their
20 hair, she's stuck them in the corner.
21 She's ...
22 Q And what recourse would there be for the
23 kids in that situation, if their other
24 mother was beating them, would they have
25 any --
26 A They just -- then we would -- what we'd
27 do is we'd reprimand the kids or stand
28 them in the corner, and then when James
29 would come home at night and we'd tell
30 him what happened, and he would take the
31 kids in his office and he would usually
32 beat them and say, "I'm doing this
33 because I love you and this is the way we
34 show how we love you." I thought it was
35 a bunch of crap. Take your kids aside
36 and beat the crap out of them and say,
37 "I'm doing this because I showing you how
38 I want you to be obedient and if you're
39 not obedient you're going to be beat, and
40 that's how I tell ya I love ya." And
41 that's what we were taught. I got to
42 where I was doing that, beating my kids
43 and saying, "I love you." "Thank you for
44 correcting me." And then probably in '04
45 and '05 I just got to where, I am not
46 going to hit my kids anymore. I'm not
47 going to thump them on the head. I'm
63
1 going to get them into my face and say,

2 "Hey, this is wrong, we don't need to do
3 this anymore." And I got to where that
4 just worked perfectly. But it wasn't
5 working with Rach or James. James was
6 getting very abusive. He would beat the
7 boys with a stick and leave welts,
8 because they were riding their bikes down
9 the streets and Warren told the kids not
10 to ride bikes down the streets anymore.
11 And I'm like, how can someone tell a
12 whole community you can't have dogs, you
13 can't have four-wheelers, you can't let
14 your kids ride their bikes, you can't go
15 over to the neighbours. I said, that's
16 wrong. Each individual ought to be doing
17 that with their own family, not having
18 somebody come and tell ya how to do that.
19 Q So James would be beating your children
20 because they weren't being obedient to
21 the prophet's direction?
22 A Right. And Rachel's kids too. He would
23 beat her kids too. It was hard to see,
24 hard to watch. And the mothers do not
25 step in. The mothers do not say
26 anything. They handle it. And then
27 after they just say, "Father did it
28 because he loves you," and the poor kids
29 all want to go run to the mom and say,
30 "mom, save me," and you can't.
31 Q And part of that, I guess, and correct me
32 if I'm wrong, was that the role of the
33 father was to be obedient to the prophet
34 and keep his family in line according to
35 the prophet's direction?
36 A That's right.
37 Q Now, you've had -- I think you've told
38 me, I'm not sure if it's on the tape or
39 when I was speaking with you earlier,
40 that you have 12 children?
41 A Yes.
42 Q And are any of your children now within
43 the -- living within the FLDS?
44 A No. All my children are here with me.
45 Q And I understand that some of your
46 children actually left the FLDS religion
47 before you did?
64
1 A Yes. Five of my older children left

2 before I did.
3 Q And can you describe the circumstances of
4 them leaving, why they left and how they
5 left?
6 A They left because they were told they
7 couldn't have friends over, they couldn't
8 have friends. They were always watched
9 every time they went anywhere, my girls
10 wanted to go horseback riding and their
11 dad would actually drive around in the
12 truck to watch to see if they were
13 talking to boys or getting in trouble and
14 stuff like that.
15 Q What was wrong with talking with boys?
16 A Boys are like snakes, they'll bite you
17 and they're poison, and they will take a
18 girl's virginity and shoot it all to
19 hell.
20 Q So the girls are taught and the boys are
21 taught that they're not to interact with
22 each other?
23 A No, they're not supposed to talk to each
24 other. I mean, if they're in school and
25 they have to hand a paper to somebody,
26 that's different. But no interaction at
27 all. You're not even supposed to have
28 eye contact or even wave at them. They
29 were just told that boys are snakes and
30 girls are snakes, you're just supposed to
31 leave them alone.
32 Q And if a boy was seen waving at a girl or
33 vice versa, what would happen?
34 A Usually the boys were kicked out, or they
35 were told that their father was supposed
36 to watch them really closely and if they
37 did it again they were kicked out. It
38 just depends on the circumstances,
39 whether they had been going out at night
40 and sneaking out and dad didn't know
41 about it or anything. And that's what my
42 boys were doing. I didn't even know they
43 were sneaking out at nights and going and
44 watching videos and movies and all this
45 stuff, until I've been out now and I'm
46 like, "You sneaky little guys. Here I
47 got in trouble for not knowing where you
65
1 guys were and there you were."

2 Q And did your boys get kicked out?
3 A No, my boys just left. They just left on
4 their own. They were just tired of not
5 getting to wear what they wanted to and
6 be a teenager, be a person, and be able
7 to have choices.
8 Q Right. Which boys -- how old were your
9 boys when they left, the ones that left?
10 A I think Jimmy was 18 or 17. Susanna was
11 almost 18 and Warren kept telling James
12 to go get her and bring her back, she's
13 so precious, she's so sweet. We've got
14 to get her to get married and have her
15 stay here. James did, he tried to bring
16 her back. And she's like, "Dad, I don't
17 want to go back and you can't make me go
18 back." And as soon as she turned 18 then
19 he couldn't do anything, because that's
20 when the law steps in and says she can't
21 -- you don't have to go back.
22 Q So Warren was telling James to go and get
23 Susanne, who had moved outside of the
24 community, and bring her back to the
25 community?
26 A Yes. She ran away to St. George and
27 those people there down in St. George
28 from the community, from Colorado City,
29 that were helping her get away, helping
30 her escape and helping her hide so her
31 dad wouldn't find her, then she
32 disappeared to Canada for a while. We
33 even drove up to Canada to talk her into
34 coming back. And she says, "I don't want
35 to come back, get that through your
36 head." He said, "you're my precious
37 daughter, you can't do this." Nothing I
38 can do except cry my heart out because it
39 was so hard to watch all my children
40 leave and wonder why, why are they
41 leaving. And then when your husband
42 comes and tells you, "because you're not
43 obedient to me, you're not doing what you
44 should do as a mother, that's why your
45 children are leaving."
46 Q So everything gets blamed back on the
47 woman?
66
1 A M'mm-hmm.
2 Q So Susanne -- why was it that Warren felt
3 that she was precious and had to be
4 brought back into the community?
5 A Because girls are treated like gems.
6 They're the ones that bring them all the
7 babies and they want them to be married
8 and stay there in the community to bring
9 more children.
10 Q And so you told us Susanne left when she
11 was almost 18 and her circumstances, and
12 you talked about Jimmy leaving at 17 or
13 18.
14 A Yeah. And then a year later Nathan left
15 when he was 17. He just called Jimmy and
16 Jimmy come and got him. So he lived with
17 Jimmy for a while and then he moved to
18 Vegas. And then I think Emma left before
19 Joe did. Emma was 15. She just felt so
20 much pressure. She was my mainstay to
21 help me with everything in the home
22 because I didn't have Susanne anymore.
23 Sabrina was married off and had her kids
24 and they lived somewhere else.
25 Q And how old was Sabrina when she got
26 married?
27 A Sabrina was 17 when she got married. She
28 had four babies right straight in a row,
29 in four years.
30 Q And was she placed in a celestial
31 marriage?
32 A Yes. Yes. She was married to Jake
33 Holmes.
34 Q And how old is Jake?
35 A I think Jake was only maybe a year or two
36 older then.
37 Q And was Sabrina his first wife?
38 A Yes.
39 Q And, sorry, you were saying Emma left the
40 community at 15 because she felt a lot of
41 pressure?
42 A Yeah, she was getting treated really
43 rotten by Rachel too. She got to where
44 she -- her and Rachel were just like at
45 each other necks and throats because Emma
46 was trying to do everything she could to
47 please her dad, and every time she needed
67
1 some money or something she'd ask her dad

2 for it and he'd say okay. And usually if
3 Rachel made the money from sewing and
4 different things, then he'd take Rachel's
5 money and give it to Emma and it would
6 make her really upset. But she just --
7 there was just so many things. She
8 didn't get to have her friends and get to
9 do things and stuff. And pretty soon she
10 was just absolutely gone one night, and
11 that was really hard. And then Joe -- I
12 can't remember if Joe left before Emma.
13 And then he came back. Yeah, actually,
14 Joe left before Emma, only about like two
15 months before, and then he came back and
16 Emma was gone. And he's like, wow, she's
17 already gone. And so he just figured,
18 well, she's gone, might as well go too.
19 Q What happens when your children leave,
20 are you allowed to talk to them?
21 A No. No. I wasn't allowed to talk to
22 them at all. They could call their dad.
23 He said, "you can call me and talk to
24 me," and all he would do is every time
25 they would call he'd say, "look at the
26 bad choices you made," look what's gonna
27 happen to you if do this, and look what's
28 gonna happen to you if you do that, he
29 said, "but you do have a choice and it
30 looks like all your choices are bad,
31 because you left, you're doing what you
32 want now." And just to tell your
33 children that they're bad and evil and
34 that they're going to go to hell, it just
35 hurts.
36 Q And why weren't you allowed to talk to
37 them?
38 A Because I was her mother and the mothers
39 get more emotional, I guess, on their
40 children leaving.
41 Q Who said you weren't allowed to talk to
42 them?
43 A James. And also the prophets. You're
44 not supposed to talk to your children
45 that leave because all it'll do is it'll
46 take another child out, which it did, one
47 after the other, it started taking them
68
1 all out, because they knew something was

2 different and they knew something was not
3 right in the community and they wanted to
4 go seek something else that was out
5 there.
6 Q And I've heard the term Apostate. Do you
7 know that term?
8 A Yeah. We're known as Apostates because
9 we've left. And James considers me and
10 the kids as Apostates now. But we're
11 still part of his family, but he's
12 concerned about us, and I said, "we're
13 fine, we're doing really good."
14 Q And part of the teachings were that
15 you're not to communicate with Apostates
16 because they're --
17 A No, because they'll just turn you against
18 and tell you that it's okay to do what
19 you're doing. It's not.
20 Q Right. And, Jorjina, you've left as
21 well, right, the FLDS religion and
22 community?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And can you tell us the circumstances of
25 what you had to do to leave?
26 A I was living in Shiloh at the time, it
27 was in '07, November of -- actually, I
28 moved down there in August of '07.
29 Q Can you tell us where that is?
30 A Shiloh, Arizona is down by Flagstaff and
31 Winslow, and it's by the Grand Canyon.
32 Q Yeah. And how far would it be from
33 Colorado City?
34 A It's like seven hours.
35 Q Seven-hour drive?
36 A yeah, six, seven-hour drive. It's four
37 to Flagstaff and then it's like two and a
38 half hours after Flagstaff. And my
39 husband had a job down there. He does
40 underground sewer/water systems, he's in
41 construction and stuff. And he was
42 taking part of the families back and
43 forth there. But Hillary had ran away in
44 September of '07.
45 Q And Hillary was your daughter?
46 A Yes. She was 13 at the time. She kept
47 running away because she just wanted
69
1 something different. She wanted to be

2 able to do things, have fun and friends
3 and stuff and she wasn't allowed to do
4 any of that. Every day was just the
5 same. So she kept running away and her
6 brother Joseph kept helping her. And
7 Child Protective Services would see no
8 abuse or anything, so they'd send her
9 back. So she'd run away seven different
10 times. And finally the seventh time I
11 helped her out and told her to cut her
12 hair, "cut your hair and you can't come
13 back." That was kind of an impulse on
14 her, something that happened right fast,
15 and that came back on me, because as soon
16 as James went and got her again, even
17 after she'd cut her hair, because I think
18 Lyle Jeffs was in charge then because
19 Warren was in jail, and he said, "you go
20 get her and bring her back." Well, we
21 couldn't come into the community, so we
22 parked down in St. George. And he got a
23 hold of Lyle Jeffs and said, "what should
24 I do?" And he says, "you take the mom,
25 and you take Hillary, and you take them
26 wherever your job is and you keep them
27 for a while, until Hillary's hair grows
28 back." And I'm like, hey, that's going
29 to take three or four years. And then he
30 took me and Hillary, and William was two,
31 and I said, "you're not taking my baby
32 from me, you're not taking my kids from
33 me and shipping me off somewhere," but it
34 just happened. So I got to take Willie
35 and Hillary and that's all. And we moved
36 to Shiloh and we lived there for a month
37 and a half.
38 Q And so how many -- you've talked about
39 Susanne and Jimmy, Nathan, Emma, Joe and
40 Sabrina who all left, and then Willie and
41 Hillary were with you.
42 A And then I had Bryce. Bryce and Fillay
43 [phonetic], and Russell and Phillip at
44 home.
45 Q And that would have been in Colorado
46 City?
47 A Yes. They stayed there with Rachel in
70
1 the home and with the dad. The dad would

2 come back and forth from the jobs to
3 check on us. But I was left there, I was
4 not supposed to come home, but I did have
5 a van, and James gave me a little bit of
6 money every once in a while, not very
7 much, just wanted me to not know that I
8 couldn't do anything. And he said, "you
9 don't need to come home. You don't need
10 to come home and see how we're doing. I
11 want you to stay down here, I want you to
12 work with Hillary, teach her to be
13 obedient, you teach her to be sweet, you
14 teach her that what she's doing is wrong
15 and she is going to go to hell if she
16 does and you will go to hell because all
17 of your children are leaving, it's your
18 problem and your fault." I said, "no,
19 it's not. When we were first married we
20 were told to multiply and replenish the
21 earth together, not just the mom, but
22 together." And he said, "Well, no,
23 that's not what it's supposed to mean.
24 It means that you're supposed to have the
25 children and I'm supposed to teach you
26 how to teach the children and how to love
27 the children and be obedient to the
28 father and respect the father." So
29 that's what I was taught to do and we
30 were told to -- we couldn't have -- there
31 was a TV down there. Hillary and I
32 rigged it and figured out how to make it
33 work so we could watch when James wasn't
34 there. And she brought her music with
35 her and that's when we started listening
36 to all different kinds of music and
37 stuff. And I missed all that. I hadn't
38 listened to music like that in 15 years
39 or 20 years, and I missed it so bad. And
40 we were told to listen to Warren's tapes
41 twice a day for an hour each on different
42 things that he would call and say, "I
43 want you to listen to this tape, I want
44 you to listen that tape on your Ipod,"
45 and stuff like that.
46 Q And what would be on those?
47 A All the priesthood training of marriage
71
1 and home economics or any of the stories

2 of the prophets and different things like
3 that. We were supposed to listen to it
4 and we were supposed to give him a
5 message at the end of the day when he
6 came to check on us.
7 Q Give the message to your husband or --
8 A Yes.
9 Q And so were the tapes for -- designed for
10 women in particular, like --
11 A Yeah. The one that I was supposed to
12 particularly listen was the 132nd section
13 doctrine and covenants which talks about
14 marriage, and your placement as a wife
15 and a mother. And Hillary and I were
16 supposed to listen to it over and over
17 again. I got so tired of it. We got to
18 where we would just listen to one first
19 little part of it and go watch a movie.
20 I'm like, "I can't take his voice
21 anymore."
22 Q It was the prophet Warren Jeffs's voice?
23 A Yes, yes. And then I overheard a
24 conversation one night that, James was
25 having somebody to come to the house to
26 take Hillary somewhere. And I'm like,
27 no, this is not gonna happen. So Hillary
28 had made some phone calls and called
29 Roger and she talked to all her brothers
30 and sisters and said, "what are we
31 supposed to do, mom? She doesn't want to
32 leave. She's still terrified that dad is
33 going to take her kids away from her." I
34 say no, he can't take her kids away from
35 her. She just needs to get in, come to
36 Salt Lake, and she'll be protected and
37 taken care of. But I was just still
38 really leery because James had threatened
39 me so many times that I will take all
40 your children away from you.
41 Q So you were worried about leaving because
42 you were threatened that all your
43 children would be taken away from you?
44 A Uh-huh, and I'd go to hell for it.
45 Q And where was he going to take Hillary?
46 A I don't know. I had a feeling that --
47 that was her husband that was going to
72
1 come and get her.

2 Q That they were going to marry her --
3 A Yeah, marry her off. I knew exactly. I
4 just had a feeling that that was going to
5 happen.
6 Q And she was 14?
7 A She was 14.
8 Q And did you know of other girls in the
9 community being married at 14?
10 A Yes. Some of her friends that she knew
11 of that she went to school with were
12 already married and had a baby. 13, that
13 she knew of. There was lots of different
14 girls that were my aids in school,
15 helping me, as my assistants, that were
16 married and they were like 14, 15 years
17 old. It's not right. It's just not
18 right. And I'm like, I'm not having my
19 daughter Hillary be married. So I said,
20 "Hillary, we've got to do something,
21 we've got to get out of here." And I
22 says, "but I'm scared to death and I
23 don't know how to do it." And Roger
24 said, "I'll give you gas money just to
25 get her out of there and come up here and
26 we'll help her." And then I talked to
27 Jeremy Johnson, he told me, "you go to
28 Moccasin and let's get a protective order
29 and get that taken care of first." So
30 the family that lived across the street
31 from us was Mormons, and she had known
32 that something wasn't right with me and
33 Hillary at the house. She knew we were
34 different. We dressed different. But --
35 Q So you kept your traditional Colorado
36 long dress on?
37 A Well, me, I was a little bit different.
38 I didn't really care for the dresses. I
39 wore jumpers with long-sleeved T-shirts.
40 And I wore leggings. I hated the
41 pantyhose, I hated that. I still wore
42 the underwear. It actually did keep you
43 warm in the winter and cold in the
44 summer, which messed up my body really
45 bad. But, yeah, the people next door
46 drove me to Flagstaff that night, Jeremy
47 got us some rooms and the next day he
73
1 took me to Moccasin and the judge signed

2 two protective orders.
3 Q And what did you understand the
4 protective orders to be?
5 A I asked him, I said, "I want something so
6 my husband can't take me back and my
7 kids." And he says, "well, I have
8 nothing here to show that there's any
9 abuse, you say your sister wife treats
10 your kids better than her kids," he says,
11 "I don't see any abuse." And I said,
12 "but there is abuse." And he goes, "well
13 then, tell me, lady, what it is that I
14 want to hear." And I said, "Well, is
15 beating my kids with a stick abuse?" And
16 he goes, "well, yeah." And he's like,
17 "come on, keep talking." So I laid out
18 the whole story about how he'd been
19 beating my boys with a stick and leaving
20 welts and he signed those protective
21 orders and he said they were for a year.
22 Then when we went to court there was
23 another judge that told the judge that
24 James is not even to talk to me for a
25 year. He can do things with the kids
26 under my supervision and guardian ad
27 litem and different things like that, but
28 he's not to talk to me. And it was just
29 like heaven. I don't have to hear his
30 voice telling me that I'm going to hell
31 or I'm going to have to go back. And it
32 was just so nice. Once I got those
33 protective orders the judge said, "do not
34 contact the local police down there. You
35 get the Mohave or you get the St. George
36 police to help you get your kids out."
37 Q And why is it you shouldn't contact the
38 local police?
39 A The local police was doing what Warren
40 wanted them to and if anybody tried to
41 leave, especially a mom with her kids,
42 they just gathered up the moms, took them
43 back over to their house and say, "you
44 stay here and repent and you do what your
45 husband tells you to do."
46 Q So the local police were FLDS themselves?
47 A Yes, yes.
74
1 Q So you were talking about the

2 circumstances of leaving, so you did get
3 a protective order --
4 A Yes.
5 Q -- and then you used the police from.
6 A Yes, and they served the papers right
7 there to Rachel. James wasn't there.
8 She got on the phone and he was on his
9 way home. The police officer says,
10 "Jorjina, gather up just some overnight
11 stuff and some things from your kids, you
12 have 20 minutes to be out of here before
13 he shows up." James was so hobnobbing
14 about everything, he always was such a
15 hot head, that I knew he would blow up
16 and things would have gotten really
17 nasty. So I was like, yeah. So we were
18 gone in 20 minutes and when we headed
19 down Hurricane Hill we passed him. Like,
20 I'm out, I'm free. I'm getting away from
21 him. And I just felt relieved. I didn't
22 feel so -- so tight and scared to death.
23 I had -- Jeremy Johnson was there and he
24 took us to his house and we stayed the
25 night and he said, "you're okay," he
26 says, "you'll be fine, you'll be fine."
27 Q And how has it been, how was it
28 transitioning from living in the FLDS
29 community to living outside of it?
30 A Well, I had grown up here for my teenage
31 years, and so I kind of knew of what it
32 was and stuff, so it wasn't that bad, but
33 for the kids it was different. The kids
34 had to go to school, we changed their
35 clothes, and we left their hair and let
36 them -- just let them grow it for as long
37 as they wanted it for however they wanted
38 it. And it was harder for her --
39 actually, for Hillary and Russell, trying
40 to transition into schools. That was
41 really hard for them. And the principals
42 and the teachers knew where we came from,
43 they did everything they could to help
44 them.
45 Q Was their level of education that they'd
46 been getting in Colorado --
47 A I had been teaching home school for the
75
1 last two or three years, but I had been a

2 schoolteacher at the home's private
3 school where I taught for six years 6th
4 grade, and I loved it. It was such a fun
5 job.
6 Q And so was school difficult for your kids
7 when they came out and --
8 A I think -- I think Russell, Hillary and
9 Phillip probably struggled the worst and
10 but Bryce and Fillay caught on so fast.
11 Fillay barely started kindergarten, and
12 she loved it. She was terrified at
13 first, she would cry every time I'd leave
14 her, I'd say, "I'll be back in two and a
15 half hours to pick you up," and we just
16 lived right across the street in an
17 apartment building. And the kids hadn't
18 started school, it was like four months
19 into the school year, but they accepted
20 them and took them in, and Bryce and
21 Fillay did excellent. They just started
22 catching up really fast.
23 Q They're the younger ones?
24 A Yes. And William was four then. And it
25 was just neat to see how they'd come home
26 and say, "we talked about George
27 Washington today," or "we learned about
28 the capital of Utah." And I'm like,
29 "it's cool, isn't it? Look at all the
30 fun things you get to learn now and
31 discover." And Russell brought home a
32 Utah book. He had no idea that it was
33 the state we were living in.
34 Q And how old was Russell?
35 A He was in middle school.
36 Q And middle school is?
37 A He was like in 7th or 8th grade.
38 Q 7th or 8th grade?
39 A And he brought the book and I said,
40 "Russell, these are some fascinating
41 facts." And I actually sat down with him
42 and we talked about the -- it's called
43 the bee state, isn't it?
44 Q Yeah.
45 A And we talked about it and I told him,
46 "this is where Brigham Young started the
47 whole --" he said, "I don't want to talk
76
1 about the prophets," and I said okay.

2 We'll get back to work. He knew this was
3 the land and it got a little bit
4 over-populated and pretty soon it went to
5 -- everybody went different ways. And I
6 said, but this is the -- beehive state,
7 that's what it's called.
8 Q Beehive, yeah.
9 A And so I read it with him and we did some
10 projects and stuff and he's like, wow,
11 and I said, "this is fascinating,
12 Russell."
13 Q So that kind of stuff they weren't
14 getting as part of their education at --
15 A No. The only history that they were
16 getting down there was priesthood
17 history, anything that had to do with all
18 the prophets back in the days, from Adam
19 to Methuselah to Jared to the prophets
20 nowadays.
21 Q So no non-religion based history?
22 A No.
23 Q What about -- you said you were a
24 teacher. When you got married, what
25 level of education did you have?
26 A I think 6th or 7th.
27 Q Grade?
28 A My mom, Azora, our stepmom taught us,
29 after we had moved up here, after I was
30 11. Then she taught us all the rest of
31 the school year, of her education. She
32 was pretty knowledgeable.
33 Q So you were home schooled --
34 A Yes.
35 Q -- and you got to about the 6 or 7th
36 grade?
37 A I'd say I went to 7. Oh, my phone,
38 please. Just to see who it is. I'll
39 just answer it. I'm going to call them
40 back.
41 Q You can tell her we'll just be about five
42 minutes. It's just difficult putting it
43 on the disk and not having a continuous
44 presentation. So what about -- did you
45 have money when you left?
46 A No. I think I had $5 in my wallet.
47 Q So how many children did you have with
77
1 you?
2 A I had six.
3 Q Six kids, no money, what did you do to
4 get by?
5 A Jeremy helped me out. He said, "If you
6 ever need anything just call me," so he
7 helped me out with money and within a
8 year he bought me a van. That's the van
9 I drive. And he's taken care of me.
10 Q And, sorry, before we were interrupted,
11 we talked about your schooling and you
12 said when you got married, and that was
13 when you were 18, I believe?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And you had grade 6 or 7?
16 A I'd say probably 7th grade. That was
17 about all, yes.
18 Q Did you get more schooling after that at
19 some point?
20 A Last fall, my daughter Emma and I signed
21 up for South Point to do our GED.
22 Q And GED is your high school equivalent?
23 A Yes, it's like a high school diploma.
24 You can either get your high school
25 diploma or your GED. And I came within
26 11 points, because I just could not
27 handle the -- I did not understand
28 algebra. Even though drills and drills,
29 and drills, just four years crammed into
30 nine weeks of school was really hard
31 because I didn't know that stuff, none of
32 it. So I want to take it up again, I
33 want to finish it, but ...
34 Q You mentioned you were a teacher at the
35 school in Colorado City?
36 A Yeah. When the schools were closed and
37 told we couldn't teach at the schools
38 anymore, then a lot of the different
39 families got together and did schools,
40 and so we had teachers like that, started
41 doing individuals to get away from the
42 public. They still did public schools
43 and people from Centennial came over
44 there, but they got rid of a lot of the
45 Apostate teachers and gentile teachers,
46 to where it was our own teachers
47 teaching, and so that's how it went.
78
1 Q What year was that?

2 A Let's see. '99? Yeah, it was '99.
3 Q And so at that point in 1999, your more
4 formal education would have been at about
5 a grade 7 level?
6 A Yes.
7 Q When you were teaching?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And would that have been typical of the
10 other teachers they had, once they got
11 rid of the Apostate and gentile teachers
12 were the --
13 A They didn't care if you were certified or
14 anything. I didn't have to be certified.
15 Q Right.
16 A Because it was more of a private school,
17 but I kept logbooks of everything I
18 taught.
19 Q Right.
20 A And I taught first grade for six years,
21 so if anybody did come in and wanted to
22 see if they were being taught all the
23 curriculum I had it all mastered.
24 Q Right.
25 A So I had it all organized and mastered,
26 so if anybody ever came in, but nobody
27 ever did. And there was a couple of
28 teachers there who had been in the system
29 and they said I was doing an excellent
30 job for not knowing what I was doing. I
31 went, okay.
32 Q And, Jorjina, you mentioned a documentary
33 called Sons of Perdition.
34 A Yes.
35 Q That your story, your family's story has
36 been profiled in?
37 A Yes.
38 Q Can you tell us about that documentary?
39 A It's different -- two different boys,
40 three different boys, and their
41 circumstances with their own families,
42 of how they were kicked out or they left
43 and how they're not able to do things
44 with their families or able to talk to
45 their families, because I think one of
46 them can talk to their mother. And it's
47 just real hard for them and what they've
79
1 gone through, and how one of their

2 fathers was kicked out, and how my son
3 had his little sister Hillary keep
4 running away and how he kept trying to
5 help her get out and then how all his
6 sisters throughout the movie and how they
7 were kept sought after to try to go back
8 and how he's helped me get out and where
9 I am.
10 Q Right. And I think that's it.
11 A Okay.
12 Q Thank you very much for coming in.
13 A You're welcome.
14
15 (VIDEO OFF)
16
17 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Jones?
18 MR. JONES: Thank you, My Lord. Resuming Monday with
19 Dr. Witte, a witness from Canada. Thank you.
20 THE CLERK: Order in court. Court is adjourned to
21 Monday January 10th, 2011, at 10:00 a.m.
22
23 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)
24
25 I, Marina Hopkins, Official Reporter in
26 the Province of British Columbia, Canada,
27 BCSRA No. 547, do hereby certify:
28 That the proceedings were taken down by
29 me in shorthand at the time and place herein
30 set forth and thereafter transcribed, and the
31 same is a true and correct and complete
32 transcript of said proceedings to the best of
33 my skill and ability.
34 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto
35 subscribed my name and seal this 13th day of
36 January, 2011.
37
38
39
40 ______________________
41 Marina Hopkins, RCR
42 Official Reporter
43
44
45
46
47

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1

1 actually go to after lunch as opposed to trying to

1 Rich, how many are direct siblings, as in

1 to our neighbours, we passed our half

1 father's children. Unfortunately,

1 that trailer for a whole year, it was

1 repairman, he could fix anything. And he

1 you don't know what it is. There you go.

1 only were there children in the school

1 another crime, which they call not

1 earth can that marriage be undone or

1 with that many mouths to feed for so many

1 I ever got handed a shovel or a rake or a

1 we had to go to the BLN pit which was

1 of that money in the form of tiding to

1 made it very logistically easy to meet

1 before I was expelled for, once again,

1 so covering it up wasn't even an option

1 doing fine there. I had actually gotten

1 associating with shows up one day, 1,100

1 think you can handle it, I guess it's

1 three that I know of, and that's been,

1 that's what I was doing. No, I was just

1 I've lived. And apparently you don't

1 to cover the ones he had already told

1 month, maybe six, maybe a year longer,

1 member of my family, not in terms of just

1 stayed within the FLDS, in terms of your

1 thank him for it, because not a lot of

1 families first. I've never seen a man in

1 for a man who was part of the church.

1 Right? I don't get lost. And on top of

1 And him and I discussed it at length in

1 the trust away from Warren Jeffs and his

1 piece. That's all that came to us in the

1 General in British Columbia, Canada.

1 out. I tried to tell my father and

1 was not going to say a thing to my

1 want any of it back. That's why my

1 were taken by the state; is that right?

1 Q Had you gone to school growing up?

1 to the doctor, he'd drop me off at the

1 others?" And he said, "they've all gone

1 it. I'm outta here. Goodbye."

1 relationship now again with your kids?

1 "never mind him. We just want you to

1 and I lost my daughter's teddy bear that

1 important for the court to hear?

1 get off the couch and they'd come running

1 you could go in and ask. I mean, you

1 and you're to go and replenish, multiply

1 went to school here, first grade -- or,

1 they want to wear, that's appropriate.

1 their birthstone or something, that was

1 wanted to go and pick them up and take

1 things started changing, no more dances,

1 going to get them into my face and say,

1 A Yes. Five of my older children left

1 guys were and there you were."

1 some money or something she'd ask her dad