THE HON BILL SHORTEN MP

LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION

MEMBER FOR MARIBYRNONG
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
SKY NEWS AUSTRALIAN AGENDA
SUNDAY, 16 NOVEMBER 2014
SUBJECT/S: G20; Climate Change; Renewable Energy Target; Tony
Abbotts whinge to global leaders; Abbott Governments unfair
Budget; Immigration; Abbott Governments unfair cuts to higher
education and $100,000 degrees.
PETER VAN ONSELEN: Well probably to continue this discussion on
climate change as a starting point were joined now live from the G20 up
in Brisbane by the Opposition Leader Bill Shorten, thanks very much for
being there.
BILL SHORTEN, LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Good morning
gentleman.
VAN ONSELEN: Can I start by asking you about the issue of climate
change. Is it your view that Barack Obamas position on this coupled
perhaps with the agreement for targets that have been struck between
China and the United Sates from APEC is a game changer domestically in
terms of the politics of this issue in Australia?
SHORTEN: Yes I do. As Paul was just saying when youve got the two
largest economies in the world making significant new commitments to
tackle climate change, I think it would be remarkably backward of
Australia to think we can sit this one out and say its not our issue. I think,
you know, theres, taking a little bit of licence, there was a lot of talk
about shirtfronting coming up to this G20. It would appear that in the
nicest and most articulate way Barack Obama has shirtfronted Tony
Abbott and said come on Australia lift your game. Because clearly Tony
hasnt wanted to speak about climate change at this summit, the G20, but
as Ive been meeting with world leaders they all believe that we should be
talking about climate change.

PAUL KELLY: Given what youve just said Opposition Leader, does this
mean given that America and China are more ambitious with their targets
that Australia should also be more ambitious with its targets and look
beyond that 5 per cent reduction by 2020?
SHORTEN: Well we need to see what happens at the Paris conference,
but Labor has had a view that it all depends about the degree of
international buy-in that would influence the target levels that we could
aspire to. But youre quite right, something you said earlier, the Direct
Action plan of the Government which I would say was always just a bit of a
camouflage to disguise the Governments climate change scepticism,
spending billions of dollars, all the experts say wont get us anywhere near
the 5 per cent emissions reduction targets that even the Government has
signed up to. So theres a real challenge here, do we spend billions and
billions of dollars more, giving them to large polluting companies or do we
look at a market based system which I think is a more value for money
and a more sustainable proposition.
KELLY: But if we just focus on the question of our targets which is the real
test here of commitment. The United States has outlined a higher target,
thats what President Obamas done. Is it your view as Labor leader that
Australia should at least match the American target or investigate the
possibility of matching the American target?
SHORTEN: My view is that we need to consider our targets in the context
of the amount of international buy-in we get. There can be no doubt
thought, as you and Peter were just observing, that China and the United
States proposing strong new measures means that theres been a game
changer in terms of the importance of climate change for Australias
policy response. So we will need to see, I firmly believe, that Australia
shouldnt be following the world but we will definitely need to see the
extent of international buy-in, in order to satisfactorily in the future
answer your question about higher targets.
KELLY: But isnt the reality that were getting the international buy-in,
weve got the commitment from the Europeans, now weve got, weve
now got this new position from the United States which youve called a
game changer. If its a game changer surely that means weve got the
buy-in, what the hell is Australia doing?
SHORTEN: Well, I think youve put it pretty plainly there, what on earth is
Australia doing?
KELLY: But Id like to hear you put it.
SHORTEN: Well, when it comes to the target we believe that if there is
demonstrable buy-in from around world as we approach the Paris
Conference next year, then the question of higher targets is entirely
legitimate, but we will need to see some more of the detail. But Labor is
open to that question but we do need to make sure that we are in step
with the rest of the world.

KELLY: Okay, well I welcome that comment; youre saying that higher
targets would be entirely legitimate. Just building on that
SHORTEN: Paul what Im saying is one thing which Labor has learned I
think from our time in Government is that we shouldnt be following the
rest of the world, we need to be working in conjunction with the rest of the
world. You cant deal with climate change one nation out but I also believe
that the Paris Conference, which Tony Abbott wasnt even going to attend,
you know, Im saying here on your show it will be derelict and negligent of
Tony Abbott now does not commit to attending the Paris conference and
further more if were attending the Paris conference which we should,
were going to need to see the Government totally revisit its settings on
climate change.
KELLY: And can I just clarify, when you say reset the settings on climate
change, youre talking about the 2020 target as well as what happens
beyond 2020?
SHORTEN: Well lets talk about what I think are two of the most
disastrous issues unfolding domestically in climate change. One is the
vandalism which is occurring to the Renewable Energy Target. I think that
this Government, now in the light of everything thats happened, now
needs to provide certainty to the renewable energy industry, thats billions
of dollars of investment, thats tens of thousands of jobs. I think the
Government needs to stop talking about cutting it by 40 per cent, the
Renewable Energy Target, and the other thing which they need to do is
they do need to revisit their Direct Action plans. We cant, I mean, today
we may well see the prospect that many nations of the world are going to
donate hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions of dollars, to a global
climate fund. It may well be the situation that Tony Abbott, not to be
embarrassed by Australia appearing to be miserly on the international
stage, could be providing almost as much money to a global climate fund
that hes willing to undertake in his own country. So these are two policies,
Direct Action and their trashing of the Renewable Energy Target, they
need to take away the uncertainly, they need to stop ignoring the science
and the economists and they need to join the mainstream of national and
international thinking on climate change.
KELLY: Okay, I appreciate those points but one final question on the
target. As you would be aware the formal position of the former Labor
Government was that it would go to a minus 15 per cent target if there
was a buy-in from the rest of the world.
SHORTEN: Yes.
KELLY: So Id ask you again
SHORTEN: Well our position is exactly that. If there is buy-in from the rest
of the world, and we will see that more and more as we approach Paris,
then we look at higher targets and if there isnt buy-in from the rest of the

world then 5 per cent is our target. But let me also add Paul we know, you
know every observer of climate change policy and what works knows, that
the Government under its current settings theyre not even going to get to
5 per cent.
KELLY: Sure. But if we just focus on Labor, I think what youve just told me
is that Labor if theres buy-in will look at 15 per cent?
SHORTEN: Paul that is our policy, that hasnt changed.
KELLY: Thank you, good.
VAN ONSELEN: Can I ask you Bill Shorten about Tony Abbotts speech
when he was addressing world leaders at the G20. Youve described it, I
think Im being accurate here, as weird and graceless. Whilst I agree with
the sentiment should you really be saying that as the alternative Prime
Minister?
SHORTEN: What do you want me to do? Just pretend everything was fine?
You and I know that it was a speech which was parochial; it was almost
stubbornly isolationist speech. If you dont like the words weird and
graceless I can say it was a missed opportunity, I could say that it wasnt
Australias finest moment. Indeed a lot of your media colleagues I think
have been equally straight in terms of analysing what happened. We had
Barack Obama give a speech which generations of Australians who
attended that speech are going to remember the rest of their lives, and
what are we going to remember about Tony Abbotts contribution on the
world stage? He said that he was complaining about the Parliament not
endorsing his new GP Tax or his changes which will create university
degrees which will be double and triple in cost. The G20 is not a domestic
whinge-fest and, I think this is a show case for Brisbane and the nation.
The worlds leaders are here, I just wish the person who is the Prime
Minister of Australia could measure up to the event in which were all
participating in.
VAN ONSELEN: Well youre not all participating because Tanya Plibersek
was denied access. The Labor Party asked for her to be included and that
application was rejected. Is that something that you intend to, sort of,
fight further on or is it just one of those things that you shake your head
and move on from?
SHORTEN: Well I did approach the Government several times and the
Government say, oh well when they were in Opposition they received
petty indignities. I just say to this current Government lets, you know,
govern for all Australians. Theres thousands of people here, there are
thousands people here but somehow this Government with its ability to
micromanage issues determined that Tanya Plibersek shouldnt be here
when theres thousands of people here. Its not the biggest issue, Tanya
Pliberseks made of stronger stuff then worrying about a particular forum
and its not the biggest issue, I grant that, but, you know, this Government

loves to talk about bipartisanship but they obviously they only ever like to
have one of us here at a time.
VAN ONSELEN: One other issue I wanted to ask you about is the
economy. Now this is of course what Tony Abbotts wants to be front and
centre at this particular agenda, focusing on global economic growth.
Reform is a key component of global economic growth but the Labor Party
federally at least seems to be shutting the door on some of the options
before exploring them. Im thinking of the GST but we can talk more
widely than that. Is Labor open minded about economic reforms or should
it be more open minded about economic reforms rather than closing the
doors before the debates have been had?
SHORTEN: We are open minded about how this country reaches for
higher ground. We believe fundamentally that having a more educated
work force, having better infrastructure, having a strong healthcare
system, promoting the equal treatment of women, having a vision of
Australia which is more than just our three capital cities. We are up for
reform, but lets not just say that every Government idea, merely because
they put the word reform in front of it actually is reform. Where is the
reform in making it harder for sick people to go to the doctor? Wheres the
reform in terms of cutting 20 per cent from our universities? Wheres the
reform in making unemployed people wait for six months? Thats not
reform, thats mean. The real challenge, the way you create sustainable
growth be it Australia or in the world, is by ensuring that we also have
inclusive growth. The challenge for me is when I visit Burnie which is, you
know, perhaps could be argued to be the youth unemployment capital of
Australia in North West Tasmania. So I want to know what the Federal
Governments doing for those young people. Where are the programs,
where are the opportunities to have skills training, I mean, theyre putting
pressure on the University of Tasmania who has a campus in Northern
Tasmania, when indeed we need to be encouraging people whose first
time, may be the first time in their families that they may contemplate
going to university. So this Government, it knows the words, it just doesnt
know what they mean.
KELLY: I want to ask you about climate change in the context of reform.
We know there was a former Labor leader Kevin Rudd who talked a lot like
youre talking now in terms of the danger of climate change and the need
to take action and then walked away from that. So my question to you as
Labor leader is given that youve now put on the table the prospect of
higher targets what that means with an ETS is higher prices under an ETS.
Would you have the courage to accept the political reality of that?
SHORTEN: Paul, first of all when you say, you know, in your manner that
its been put on the table, thats always been there. In terms of the
debates about speaking like a former Labor Prime Minister, I also happen
to be speaking like Malcolm Turnbull was about an ETS, like John Howard
was when he proposed having something similar in the 2007 election. Its
Tony Abbott who is the outlier here; he is the unusual man in Australian
politics who perceived an opportunity to scare people about acting on

climate change and he was very successful at it. But I do think that weve
wasted a number of years once that bipartisan consensus was destroyed
when Abbott rolled Turnbull and in fact for four or five years its been a
very sectarian debate which means that the experts in the world and the
scientists in Australia, theyve been shut out of a debate and yelled down.
And I dont accept the other part of what youre saying Paul that somehow
theres going to be some massive price. I mean please Paul, lets treat our
political process and debate as not just being a race to the bottom. In
terms of acting on climate its not me who required the President of China
and the President of the United States to act upon it. Its not, the world
and the science surrounding climate change demands answers. We either
deal with it now or we deal with it in the future but one way or another
well have to deal with it. Its purely going to be about how long it takes
for us to get there.
KELLY: But the question I asked which you didnt answer was would you
have the courage that Kevin Rudd lacked?
SHORTEN: Well Im not going to start disparaging former Labor leaders; I
might leave that to commentators and others. What I will do is I will set
the direction of the Labor Party with my colleagues which we have, and I
articulated back in July everything that were talking about now. Theres
nothing new in what we are saying. What we are saying is that we think
climate change is real. What we are saying is were a Party who is guided
by the future, not by just arguing about the past and what I strongly
believe, so the answer is yes, is that a Government or an Opposition who
go to the next election and dont have a real policy which is taken
seriously by the experts, based upon the evidence, should not be
governing in this country.
VAN ONSELEN: Bill Shorten I want to, before we run out of time, ask you
about something that happened on this program a few weeks ago. Your
immigration spokesperson Richard Marles seemed to suggest that it may
well be the case that turn backs of boats is having an impact on slowing
the flow of boats. He appeared to be pretty quickly slapped down by
yourself and others within the Labor Party that this was not the case. Was
he in a sense just going off the reservation in terms of this issue?
SHORTEN: No, what was happening is that became a speculative debate
about had Labor changed its policy and we havent.
VAN ONSELEN: So, because he sounded like there was the capacity there
for Labor to embrace turn backs. He was cautious in his words in fairness
to Richard Marles, he made it quite clear that he would need more details
about what actually happens at sea but there appeared to be an openmindedness to it. Is that something that you share?
SHORTEN: Peter, Im always an opened minded person but when it
comes to I think the substance of what youre saying Labor hasnt
changed its policies and I think its important that the Government
become less secretive about how theyre handling turn backs and all the

procedures and protocols around that. But in terms of where were going,
be it the good work that Richards doing in immigration or any of my
shadows are doing, we understand, and this isnt strictly on immigration,
but I think at this G20 summit its remiss of me not to keep making this
point. Australia is at its finest when were reaching for higher ground,
when were engaging with the rest of the world. Now that doesnt mean
that we have to recklessly agree with everything that happens but I
believe be it climate change, Ebola, standing up against terrorists in
Northern Iraq, that Australia reaches its best moments, in the same in
trade and engaging with the rest of the world, that what people want from
the politics of this nation is a focus on the future. And I think that Tony
Abbott needs to perhaps learn from the G20 and understand that there is
an appetite, not just internationally, but even more importantly
domestically. What they want in our political debate is a view of the future,
not just a view of the past.
KELLY: In relation to the university policy, Australian universities have
warned that the quality, the performance, the competitiveness and the
reputation of higher education in Australia will be doomed to inevitable
decline unless this package is negotiated through the Parliament with
appropriate amendments. How much damage are you prepared to inflict
on Australian universities by not negotiating?
SHORTEN: Paul I dont accept for one moment the use of the word
damage. As the leader of the Labor Party were highly committed, most
passionately committed to a better higher education outcome for
Australians. It was under Labor that the number of students going to
university has increased. But in terms of the package, how on earth could
Labor, who believes fundamentally in the ability and, you know, that a
students hard work and merit should determine their educational
opportunities, not their wealth. How could we wave through a package
which sees a 20 per cent cut in the funding to universities? How do we
Paul agree to a doubling in the interest rate of HECS debts which are
currently in place? Paul, you and I know this is a Government who is prone
to overreach and higher education is a classic example of an Abbott
Government being out of touch with how real Australians construct their
dreams and their hopes.
VAN ONSELEN: But just finally Bill Shorten on this particular issue, are
you just surprised therefore that all the VCs literally, I think all the VCs
have lined up and said that this package needs to be passed, whats going
on there?
SHORTEN: Well first of all Paul, sorry and Peter, Ive spoken to a range of
the VCs. This idea that theres unbridled enthusiasm and fist pumping
cheering from the halls of the senior ranks of academia about this
Governments package is a complete spin. Now what I do know is that
some of the Vice-Chancellors say were getting a 20 per cent cut by the
Government so, you know, weve got a gun to our head. Lets be really
straight and you gentleman can be very straight in your coverage, I know
that, the Government cant pretend its for higher education when its

taking 20 per cent of the Budget out. You and I both know that taking 20
per cent of the Budget of universities out of the system and a deregulated
system will mean that fees will increase further and faster than they
otherwise would. That is a real hole below the water line in this
Governments unfair Budget and their unfair changes to higher
education.
VAN ONSELEN: Alright Bill Shorten, Labor Opposition leader, we
appreciate your time on Australian Agenda, thanks very much.
SHORTEN: Lovely to be here in Brisbane, thanks gentleman.
ENDS