Talk:Hot Rod (DOTM)

This page should be deleted, the Rodimus included with the Two-Pack was intended to be Hot Rod as he appeared in Spotlight: Hot Rod.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by SupremeCommander85 (talk • contribs).

It would be awesome if you had any kind of evidence whatsoever to back this up, especially since it doesn't look anything like Hot Rod in Spotlight: Hot Rod. -LV, not logged in

Yeah, considering DOTM Rodimus features a color palette never seen on a Hot Rod/Rodimus before, you better have some evidence to back that claim up. --Detour 10:25, 8 July 2011 (EDT)

This page should exist just like another G1-ish but actually Movie character (Brawl (ROTF)) does. (Unless Hasbro changes it someday.) --TX55^TALK 10:45, 8 July 2011 (EDT)

That's not even the same situation, since Universe and ROTF Brawls are identical, while this DOTM Rodimus sports a brand-new color scheme that's unlike any deco any Hot Rods/Rodimuses have ever sported. --Detour 10:54, 8 July 2011 (EDT)

Concept art

Don't know if unused concept art is mainpic worthy. (Carrion)

Aren't several unused WfC/FoC concept images currently being used as mainpics? - SanityOrMadness 18:30, 22 August 2013 (EDT)

I think isn't the more pertinent question: is this art actually intended to be Hot Rod (and not an early Dino or something). I mean, we've seen DOTM Shockwave concepts labelled Blitzwing. Jalaguy 18:45, 22 August 2013 (EDT)

Well, the next page has a Shockwave take labelled as Shockwave, along with a slightly different Hot Rod take and a Galvatron. - SanityOrMadness 18:53, 22 August 2013 (EDT)

We're not making raw concept art the mainpic for the character that doesn't exist outside of being a toy that's not based on that concept art and quite possibly was created without that concept art in consideration. --M Sipher 19:27, 22 August 2013 (EDT)

However, four years later, I am totally down with promoting the FTF picture to mainpic status. It's a lot nicer than the current one and we so rarely have good non-movie/non-concept art shots of movie characters to go up there. -LV (talk) 23:30, 22 August 2017 (EDT)

Title

Permission to change it to Hot Rod (TLK)?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Skywarp Prime (talk • contribs).

No. The character had a toy in the Dark of the Moon toyline first, so he's denoted as "DOTM". -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 12:55, 17 June 2019 (EDT)

Hot Rod (TLK) already redirects here. If someone types that in it will bring them here anyways. --Khajidha (talk) 13:40, 17 June 2019 (EDT)

Alright. Skywarp Prime (talk) 15:49, 17 June 2019 (EDT)Skywarp Prime

What about making a page for DOTM Hot Rod and making this one for TLK Hot Rod? They aren't really the same character. Skywarp Prime (talk) 09:27, 8 July 2019 (EDT)Skywarp Prime

No. There's no reason to split them up. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 09:32, 8 July 2019 (EDT)

What possible benefit could there be to splitting them? As I mentioned before anyone looking for "Hot Rod (TLK)" is already brought here. Your proposal just leaves us with a tiny little stump of a page for the DOTM toy that will basically never grow and will just sit around doing nothing. Minimize therbligs. Whether DOTM or TLK its all in the movie continuity family. Unless they are demonstrably separate (ie shown at the same time as separate characters) there's no reason to split them. --Khajidha (talk) 10:32, 8 July 2019 (EDT)

That's the trouble with grouping people by names instead of characters. TLK Hot Rod isn't based on G1 Hot Rod in any way. He's a separate character. Even though separating DOTM and TLK would leave a little stump for the DOTM Hot Rod, it's the logical thing to do. And yet, why do I get the feeling that people on this wiki will just switch it back every time someone makes the correction? King Kid (talk) 18:23, 4 April 2020 (EDT)

Exactly what part of his character are you seeing as different? He's a young (contemporary of Bumblebee) Autobot, he's friends with the Witwiccans (Witwickys and their associates), and does stunt driving through the city. That sounds like the young, turbo-revving Autobot who was best friends with Daniel Witwicky to me. And Hasbro even decoed one of his toys with the G1 character's chest deco. --Khajidha (talk) 19:24, 4 April 2020 (EDT)

Move

I find that having this article be named after such an obscure and irrelevant toy over the much more prominent movie Hot Rod is very user unfriendly and clunky. The page should have a TLK disambig as this is how 99% of the userbase is gonna search for the article and it's the mayority of the page's content anyways. MrRald (talk) 14:51, 4 December 2022 (EST)

Which the existing redirect takes care of. --Khajidha (talk) 16:06, 4 December 2022 (EST)

Disambigs aren't there to aid search, they're there to keep characters with the same name separate. If people are searching for a character, there is a disambiguation page they can check. --abates (talk) 17:29, 4 December 2022 (EST)

The page should just be at TLK to begin with, there is zero reason a single Legends class figure should take any kind of prominence over the actual film appearance. McBaggins (talk) 16:41, 4 December 2022 (EST)

The reason is that the DOTM tag is consistent with our naming conventions. The TLK one isn't. That's all the reason we need. --Khajidha (talk) 20:12, 4 December 2022 (EST)

"Because we've always done it this way" ain't exactly a convincing argument. McBaggins (talk) 11:00, 5 December 2022 (EST)

No one has put forward an argument as to why we should change the criteria, so the fact that the criteria say to do it this way is enough. "I don't like the criteria" is not a reason to change them. --Khajidha (talk) 12:08, 5 December 2022 (EST)

Because a Legends class figure with absolutely zero connection to the film character aside from the name has zero business being what dictates what the disambig should be, and I said as much earlier. McBaggins (talk) 13:51, 5 December 2022 (EST)

As I said, your dislike of the way we do things is not a convincing argument either. --Khajidha (talk) 14:22, 5 December 2022 (EST)

I've laid out a reasoning for my stance on this, do you plan on doing the same or are you just gonna keep repeating the same incorrect statement regarding my motivations over and over. McBaggins (talk) 14:51, 5 December 2022 (EST)

DOTM and TLK Hot Rods are both iterations of the "Hot Rod" archetype in the same continuity family, so they go on the same page. Since DOTM came first, we use that as the parenthetical. If we really wanted to increase user accessibility, we wouldn't be changing from the name of one sequel to that of another, we would just fold all of the sequels into the (Movie) disambig. You'll note that the examples that MrRald gives are much closer to this pattern. --Khajidha (talk) 15:19, 5 December 2022 (EST)

We've already moved several characters from (WFC) to (Prime) and many from (BWU) to (IDW) and (G1) for the sake of user accessibility, there's plenty of precedent to fall back on. DOTM Hot Rod is not a character who appeared in media. It's a G1 toy sold with DOTM branding in a multipack and a single namedrop in the BotCon Megatron bio. MrRald (talk) 14:47, 5 December 2022 (EST)

I think if we can have Megatronus The Fallen have an RotF main image instead of a Dreamwave main image on the grounds of global cinematic prominence, then our policy on first franchise debut for disambig tag is worth making an exception or new policy for Bayverse Hot Rod, whose TLK legacy very very very far eclipses the forgettable DotM toy. On a similar note, we moved Bayverse Drift from (ROTF) to (AOE) because the unreleased RotF ancillary toy was completely forgettable compared to the AoE media blitz. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 15:03, 5 December 2022 (EST)

Disagree. As abates said the point of the parentheses is for namespace purposes, there's already a redirect for anyone who does search "Hot Rod (TLK)", and from experience any argument that prioritizes "notability" over chronological order is a one-way ticket to a bad time. Grum (talk) 15:41, 6 December 2022 (EST)

Yeah, when I idly mentioned that this page could be moved it was because I had misremembered there being precedent for another character who started in a toyline before appearing in the movies using the disambig of their movie appearance. Since I don't think that's actually the case, I fully retract that suggestion - we should keep it here. --Riptide (talk) 17:01, 6 December 2022 (EST)

I’m with the other admins in that I don’t think there’s enough justification to treat Hot Rod as a unique case, compared to any other character who debuted elsewhere before making it into a movie. If the move was going to happen, it would need to be preceded by a lengthy discussion about how we treat disambiguators in general. As things are now, I’m firmly in the “leave it be” camp. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 17:39, 6 December 2022 (EST)

Fritz suggested on Discord that the DOTM/Timelines and TLK characters be on separate "Rodimus (DOTM)" and "Hot Rod (TLK)" pages instead of sharing this one, since a number of folks involved in this debate feel that TLK Hot Rod is less of a reverent Movieverse version of G1 Hot Rod and more just a name-slap like many other onscreen Movieverse characters (I myself don't agree with the notion of him being a name-slap, but I bring up Fritz's suggestion just to lay all cards on the table). --Sabrblade (talk) 17:47, 6 December 2022 (EST)

Completely absurd. Let's do it. Especially since, namespaces aside, there literally never was a "Hot Rod" referred to by the Dark of the Moon franchise. He was always named Rodimus. TheLastGherkin (talk) 17:59, 6 December 2022 (EST)

Since Sabrblade brought up my (admitedly half-joking) suggestion, there is the fact that Rodimus and Hot Rod may very well be two separate guys in the movieverse, we just don't know that for sure. BUT I do know how pedantic that sounds and if they are to continue sharing a page (there are other examples of two or more clearly-separate-individuals sharing the same page, after all) then I think we have no choice but to keep the (DOTM) disambig. Unless we change how we do disambigs around here, and we all know how that discussion usually ends. ----Fritz (talk) 18:26, 6 December 2022 (EST)

There is precedent for a Hot Rod and Rodimus coexisting in the Japanese version of the Unicron Trilogy (granted, Hot Rod had upgraded to Hotshot for Super Link so it was Hotshot and Rodimus Convoy sharing the screen), so I'm totally for splitting DotM Rodimus/Rodimus Prime out of TLK Hot Shot. - Archforce (talk) 20:03, 6 December 2022 (EST)

Adding my support for this split, too. I think it might have even been too much of a gun-jump to lump both characters together under an assumption, especially when the note at the bottom of the page says both were based off of G1 Hot Rod...but TLK Hot Rod only really shares a name and a partial color scheme with the G1 incarnation. For all intents and purposes, TLK Hot Rod is not a Movieverse expy of the Generation 1 character, just another using the same name. SlimerJoel (talk) 21:17, 6 December 2022 (EST)

What? Why? I know I'm one to talk since I hate how lax we get with what we keep together and I think the idea of "there's not enough for a page for themself" is stupid, but in what possible universe would this be a solution to something that's barely a problem in the first place? There's nothing suggesting that they're separate characters either, and quite frankly there's a fair number of examples I can think of off-hand that would make more sense to split than this absurd idea. Escargon (talk) 00:05, 7 December 2022 (EST)

Just to elaborate on my position. G1 Hot Rod and Rodimus Prime are very obviously the same character, with a clear throughline. But we know that's not necessarily true with other versions of the character. Here's a Rodimus who was never a Hot Rod (and co-exists with one in the Japanese version). Here's another. Here's a Rodimus Prime who was a Hot Rod in his backstory, but the page is at his more prominent identity. Here's a Rodimus who used to be a Hot Shot, and was introduced as such, that we split into a separate guy when common sense prevailed. And there's also the Hot Rods that never became Rodimuses.

Our data points for DOTM Rodimus are 1) his name is Rodimus 2) he's an offscreen guy from Dark of the Moon and 3) he became a Rodimus Prime. Only the second point is implicitly true of TLK Hot Rod. And as I've said before, we're the ones who applied the name "Hot Rod" to the DOTM character. Nothing about DOTM Rodimus was taken into consideration when creating the character of TLK Hot Rod, just as nothing about Crosshairs went into Crosshairs (AOE).

A split, to me, seems like a good compromise between the franchise-of-origin letter of the law, the repeated moving-the-chairs-around debates since 2017, and being friendly to read to a complete casual. TheLastGherkin (talk) 05:30, 8 December 2022 (EST)

Well, for one, I don't think other Hot Rods particularity matter when it comes to this page. And for two: the main difference of Crosshairs and Hot Rod is that 07 Crosshairs had a contradictory profile. Rodimus doesn't. Being entirely frank, the idea of this split seems less motivated by "reader friendlyness" and more the result of constant misunderstandings of what the disambiguation tags are for. Every one of these conversations about "should we move this or that" always feels like we're treating our audience as being completely unable to figure out on their own why things are at a specific disambiguation tag, which I feel does them a disservice. And again, I know this is rich coming from me, someone who constantly rails against the idea that we can't have small pages, and someone who things that ROTF Lockdown and AOE Lockdown should have separate pages, but why would we need a small, useless little Rodimus (DOTM) article with maybe at most the stuff from BotCon 2015 Megatron's bio card on it for fiction? Escargon (talk) 07:27, 8 December 2022 (EST)

Split DOTM Rodimus proposal currently located here. TheLastGherkin (talk) 07:58, 14 December 2022 (EST)

I think it's silly to merge the two pages. There's nothing to suggest Rodimus and Hot Rod were, are, or ever will be the same character - DOTM Rodimus has basically no appearances aside from a toy that never uses the name "Hot Rod", while TLK Hot Rod never gets the Matrix or so much as decides to go by "Rodimus". For all we know, the people who have spent years decrying this design for not being G1 were right; this isn't G1 Hot Rod, because G1 Rod Rod already existed and became Prime before the drastically different Hot-Rod-in-name-only TLK character came on the scene. And it isn't like we've never had similar situations like this in both toys and media where two characters exist with the same or similar names, so frankly I don't see why it's such a big deal now. I say leave them separate. cat (talk) 17:45, 23 January 2023 (EST)

If movie Divebomb and ROTF Divebomb can be on the same page, then DOTM Rodimus and TLK Hot Rod can be on the same page too. ThatGuy79 (talk) 11:15, 8 March 2023 (EST)

ROTF Divebomb is the same character as Movie Divebomb, his Scout class toy bio specifically says so. -- Fritz (talk) 11:33, 8 March 2023 (EST)

...oh. I do think they should stay on the same page, but given that the DOTM guy is only called Rodimus and never Hot Rod, I can see it going both ways. ThatGuy79 (talk) 12:02, 8 March 2023 (EST)

Hello I want to add some Oil to the fire, no seriously i'm in favor of spliting them per se like how it was proposed not so long ago for Dino & ROTB Mirage ala Cyclonus/Snow Cat or Skids/Screech -MahXyme/MahXymal (talk) 11:49, 31 May 2023 (EDT)

...This "situation" is nothing like any of those examples. Dino and Mirage is because the two are radically different; Cyclonus and Snow Cat is because of Hasbro's intents behind the scenes (which I question anyway because we're not supposed to be influenced by authorial intent); and Screech has been separate ever since he was introduced in 2009 because of the alternate dimension shenanigans going on with him. DOTM Hot Rod has two things: a toy with no bio and a one-sentence mention in a bio card about an alternate dimension Megatron. Not nearly enough to be split. Escargon (talk) 09:51, 31 May 2023 (EDT)

Here's the thing, it isn't a G1 Universe where one evolved into the other & gained a new name, up until no media or toy bio mention anything about that, clearly nothing, so idk why it has to be the case for 2 distinct characters, I agree too that Dino & Mirage are different themselves but the argument that the DOTM toy doesnt provide much info to be split.... sorry but the wiki does this kind of stuff all the time for covenant ease, even for the smallest of character being name-dropped & I mentioned Cyclonus & Skids because of how the wiki organized them, idk how it's called tho, "suites"?? -MahXyme/MahXymal (talk) 11:49, 31 May 2023 (EDT)

There's nothing making them distinct because the DOTM Rodimus has literally nothing to him; he has no bio that makes him his own character. And I literally just explained why the cases for Snow Cat and Screech are different. As I said months ago, I think that this whole thing is a result of new editors not getting how disambiguation tags work; it's not what's more "notable," it's about internal organization. There's no real reason to split and every push to do so ultimately boils down to a lack of understanding of how these things work. Escargon (talk) 12:17, 31 May 2023 (EDT)