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Deprecation of P31=video game remaster (Q65963104), video game remake (Q4393107) and video game reboot (Q111223304)

Hi folks,

Looking at Wikidata:WikiProject Video games/Statistics/instance of, we currently have 175 -instance of (P31)video game remaster (Q65963104), 157 of video game remake (Q4393107) and 78 of video game reboot (Q111223304) − sometimes with a of (P642) qualifier, resulting in for example The Last of Us Remastered (Q19057897)instance of (P31)video game remaster (Q65963104)of (P642)The Last of Us (Q1986744).

I would suggest deprecating this modelling in favour of -instance of (P31)video game (Q7889) + -based on (P144)The Last of Us (Q1986744)subject has role (P2868)video game remaster (Q65963104)

When it comes to the why, I would echo many of the points made by Spinster (about movies, but I think they apply here too) in Wikidata_talk:WikiProject_Movies/Properties#Precision_of_P31_and_subclasses_of_types_of_film_(again...).

In particular:

• to me, P31 is about the very core nature of something. Being a remake or a remaster is not, to me, more defining of The Last of Us Remastered than being, say, a PS4 game, an action-adventure game, a 2014 game…
  • worse, whether something is a remake/remaster/port can be an endless debate with sources disagreeing − we can deal with that, but it feels wrong to have such shaky grounds for the P31.
• information that can be stored in other properties (like indeed the platform, the genre, the date, etc.) should be in these statements, not stuffed into P31.
• drilling-down the class tree (whether directly in WDQS or with eg my ExLudo user-script) is slow and occasionally returns more than what you want (for example, you would get compilations and expansion packs since these are currently subclasses of Q7889 [which might be debatable in itself, but I think it’s fine enough])
• the data modelling relies on the use of of (P642), which is deprecated.
• As far as I can tell, other databases do not consider remakes/reboots/remasters as a top-level entity either (the exception is IGDB, which I really find odd).

(There are more subclasses in Wikidata:WikiProject Video games/Statistics/instance of that I’m not too happy with, but let's keep this discussion about these 3 for now)

Looking forward to your thoughts!

Jean-Fred (talk) 14:41, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

 Support, I fully agree with the raised points. Sjoerd de Bruin (talk) 14:47, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

 Support, there may be some cases with remake and remaster where video game edition (Q60997816) may be better as the P31, but I can agree with all of these three being deprecated at minimum. --Lewis Hulbert (talk) 15:02, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

 Support. Solidest (talk) 15:32, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

 Comment, but I don't think it's quite right to use the pair based on (P144)original gamesubject has role (P2868)remaster – such a statement would imply that it's based on a remaster, isn't it? In this case, I would suggest adopting the music project practice and use remaster/reboot/remake and the other qualities that characterise the video game release in has characteristic (P1552), directly (not as qualifier). And then we can create a separate class, like music release attribute (Q108040195), to group all these things together and define a set for this property. So this could be a real replacement of "of"-like qualifiers with direct properties instead of just swapping labels. Solidest (talk) 15:32, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is that what you describe would be the case with object of statement has role (P3831), not with subject has role (P2868). I do agree with you that we should make more use of has characteristic (P1552) ; but in that case I think that remasters and remakes are fundamentally a relationship with another work, which is better expressed with based on (P144). Short of creating properties “remake of” and “reboot of” etc., which I did consider − it’s also what’s floated by the Relationships among video games: Existing standards and new definitions (Q50180192) paper − but decided (so far) that the frontiers between these concepts are too blurry to make dedicated properties workable, and that we are better served by based on + qualifier (as I’m writing this, though, I do accept that based on would not really work super well for reboots ; perhaps rather as a qualifier on part of the series (P179)?) Jean-Fred (talk) 20:28, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, you are right about subject/object, my bad. I agree that "based on" with qualifier sounds smoother and more readable with "remaster" and "remake". But perhaps this could be used in parallel with has characteristic (P1552) = remaster + remake? Since "reboot" as a qualifier doesn't seem quite fitting in either "based on" or "part of series". I just see more opportunity here in uniform standardisation than relying somewhere on qualifiers, somewhere on a second property, and somewhere on a third property. All these things look to me like part of the same qualities set. Speaking of uniform standardisation, next we could also move video game port (Q64641660), sequel (Q261636) from p31 to p1552. And there's much more potential of clearing up and standartizing p31s, like use group of video games (Q116741534) in p31 while move video game compilation (Q16070115), video game bundle (Q96240590) to p1552 as well, and so on. In the end we will have a fixed set of 8-10 recommended P31s that we can lock in the schema, and the similar loosier set for p1552. And I'm not sure that it will be possible if some things remain in the scheme as qualifiers - it just gives extra unsystematic space, which eventually result again with into what we have in p31 especially since qualifiers are rarely monitored and corrected. Solidest (talk) 22:39, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

 Support Like Sjoerd, I fully agree with the raised points. — Envlh (talk) 17:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

 Support This makes sense to me. Nicereddy (talk) 18:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

 Support Subclassing is not wrong in a sense. It can be useful. "It's a video game. Oh, but what KIND OF video game? It's a remaster. Oh, a video game remaster? Yeah." But I think your first comment is the most compelling, about having a single way to show some parentage of a video game, is the right move forward. And based on (P144) is exactly the right property to use to show some kind of parentage, and then just qualify the children. -- Thadguidry (talk) 01:31, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

 Support as this will increase compatibility with Mix'n'match (Q28054658) which does not support subclasses of video games so it will ignore everything marked solely as video game reboot/remaster (and expansion) Matthias M. (talk) 10:14, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

 Support. Done for Constructor HD (Q123456086). YotaMoteuchi (talk) 23:57, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks all for chiming in. Given the support, let's do this. I’m not sure I can reliably automate this, so I’ll work my way trough this query:

SELECT DISTINCT ?item ?itemLabel ?type ?typeLabel ?of ?ofLabel ?based ?basedLabel ?role ?roleLabel WHERE {
  VALUES ?type { wd:Q4393107 wd:Q65963104}
  ?item wdt:P31 ?type ;
    p:P31 ?p31statement.
  OPTIONAL { ?p31statement pq:P642 ?of. }
  OPTIONAL {
    ?item p:P144 ?basedStatement.
    ?basedStatement ps:P144 ?based.
    OPTIONAL { ?basedStatement pq:P2868 ?role. }
  }
  SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],en". }
}

Try it!

Jean-Fred (talk) 19:36, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I have corrected all cases where the original game was listed. There are only 40 remasters/remakes left with no reference to the original game - they need to be manually searched and corrected. Solidest (talk) 18:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I feel like this list is growing because no one would model intuitively backwards with -based on (P144)-subject has role (P2868)video game remaster (Q65963104). It also does not work properly for compilations. Matthias M. (talk) 18:33, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't say the list is growing. When I did mass edits, there were over 30+ values left if I remember correctly. Now there's 24. Solidest (talk) 19:18, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I corrected some, but there still a few left. Also video game reboot (Q111223304) is not part of the query. Matthias M. (talk) 10:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Looks like this modelling is already being deprecated: Wikidata:WikiProject Deprecate P642 has also other video game related entries that are currently migrated to something else. I already reverted some as they didn't use our specialized properties like mod of (P7075) and I am also not happy with the based on (P144) duplication in the video game remake/remaster realm. I think this requires additional cleanups. Matthias M. (talk) 20:38, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

author (P50) vs screenwriter (P58)

(Solidest raised this on our Telegram channel, let’s have the discussion here too for transparency and traceability)

To model the person who wrote the script/scenario of a game, we currently recommend to use author (P50). Solidest argues (and I agree) that this property is more designed for literary works, and that we should rather be using its subproperty screenwriter (P58), designed for audiovisual media. P58 already has a require-constraint on video game writer (Q3476620) (since 2019)

Despite not being documented, this seems to have become the de-facto standard, with P58 used with 428 video games and P50 with 218 video games.

I think Solidest’s proposal makes absolute sense. The only hitch (as pointed out by folks in the English Wikipedia Video game Wikiproject) is that the English label screenwriter is not typically used for video games. That said, the French label scénariste (= scenario writer) and the English aliases (written by, writing credits, scenarist, story by) leave no doubt to me about the intent of the property. P50 feels also in imprecise: do we mean "author" as in the scenario writer, "the sole creator" (like say, Chahi for Another World, where we would rather use P178) or as in Auteur (in the artistic sense, like has been said of Fumito Ueda, Hideo Kojima or Goichi Suda − something somewhat fuzzy that we don’t want to model I think)

So unless there are any objections, I suggest we do the following:

• [TODO] Update Wikidata:WikiProject_Video_games/Properties#Staff to use P58 instead of P50
• [TODO] Check with any Wikipedia uses of the property (like infobox field) and help them through the changes.
• [TODO] Go through the 218 uses of P50 and migrate them, where relevant, to P58 (I don’t think we can automate that, per the unclarity I pointed to above)
• not much to do on P58, as it already has the relevant constraint
• [MAYBE?] Add a constraint to P50 to prevent its use on video game (Q7889) items.
• [OPTIONAL] if we are really bothered by the English screenwriter label, start on the property talk page a discussion to change it to "scenarist" or "scenario writer" or whatever

Looking forward to your thoughts!

Jean-Fred (talk) 10:29, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for starting this discussion. In the enwiki discussion yesterday I gave some additional arguments in favour of P58 over P50:

– a writer in video games is closer to a film screenwriter than to writing literary prose or poems - there is a narrative that is played intended to be played out or performed visually (essentially is written in dramatic mode)

– on wikidata author (Q482980) is described in the context of literature and books, screenwriter (Q28389) is described in the context of cinema, and for video games there is a separate video game writer (Q3476620), the latter is not connected to any of the properties, which should be corrected.

– articles on enwiki actually describe video game writers in the context of en:screenwriter and the corresponding subsection in en:writer#screenwriter, not in en:author.

– additionally, as already said, "author" can be understood as the sole creator of a game, and I was looking through the use of author properties yesterday and found some of these cases, e.g. Portal (Q274897) now lists both game director and writers in author, or Seastalker (Q7441958) has game designers lists as authors. But these are rather rare cases, as this is mostly being exported fromthe writer parameter from in enwiki.

Other suggestions that have come up on enwiki is to create a separate property for a video game writer. This doesn't seem to me to be the most optimal, as it should actually be not much different from the position described by screenwriter (P58) - it's all about writing scripts for further performance in different environments and mediums, such written works most often conform to the rules of dramaturgy (dialogues - acts - narrator/author's comments). Video games aren't much different from cinema in this regard.

So I  Support all of the above points, including the title change for P58. Also, this should probably go to the P58 discussion, but en:Template:Infobox television uses 4 different parameters for the following: (1) "writer" - a generic post combing screenwriting + story by position. (2+3) "screenplay" and "teleplay" for scripts specifically, with different titles displaying when using different parameters. (4) "story" - a separate property for an idea or original story. I'm not sure how such a variety fits into 1 property and perhaps it is to be determined, with the potential of creating a new property. Since some other infoboxes also have the practice of separating "screenplay" and "story by".

And the last but not least thing to do is to add the alias "video game writer" to screenwriter (P58) with already mentioned listing video game writer (Q3476620) in Wikidata item of this property (P1629). Solidest (talk) 17:03, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

There has not been much input here ; but there has not been any opposition either :) Can I assume that no-one has any concerns about this? Jean-Fred (talk) 17:32, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

There is also a discussion on the screenwriter (P58) talk page, started a month ago, about changing the default English label regarding comics, which is relevant to what we are discussing here: see Property talk:P58#Default English label. Solidest (talk) 14:20, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I think a new property called "video game writer" would be best. This makes it crystal clear which property should be used and avoids having to change labels of screenwriter (P58), which got its current English label 11 years ago and is dominantly (99%) used by films and TV shows. However, using screenwriter (P58) is still better than author (P50) so I would love to this migration effort proceed. Dexxor (talk) 15:07, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

distributed by (P750)

Can we get rid of video game (Q7889)distributed by (P750)Steam (Q337535) or video game (Q7889)distributed by (P750)GOG.com (Q1486288) statements? They just repeat the information from Steam application ID (P1733) and GOG application ID (P2725) are mostly auto-generated and will rot away when moving identifiers and forgetting about the statements. I think it gets even worse in terms of redundancy when coupled like this Kentucky Route Zero (Q6392377)distributed by (P750)GOG.com (Q1486288)stated in (P248)GOG.com (Q1486288) when it is even more self-referential. Matthias M. (talk) 11:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Removing those would make sense to me tbh, it's definitely duplicative. Nicereddy (talk) 22:02, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

item-requires-statement constraint (Q21503247) exists for a reason. Demanding valid statements to be removed solely because they are inferred from an identifier is quite frankly silly.--Trade (talk) 12:38, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I disagree it’s duplicative. We can’t completely get rid of P750 because there are distributors where there is no identifier equivalent (eg Netflix games). If we remove Steam and GOG, then I need to look-up P750 AND check P1733 AND check P2725. Conversely, right now, I can only check P750 to know where some game is distributed.

I mean, by that logic, we could depopulate platform (P400) because we have IDs that constraint a platform too...

(That said, P750 is fairly inconsistent right now and definitely needs work.)

Jean-Fred (talk) 18:51, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

These are also fair points, I rescind my support for the proposal. Nicereddy (talk) 16:20, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I suggest you take a look at the constraints over at Steam application ID (P1733). You will find P750 over there. Take a look!

@Trade

> item-requires-statement constraint (Q21503247) exists for a reason. Demanding valid statements to be removed solely because they are inferred from an identifier is quite frankly silly.

In your opinion what information does distributed by = Steam add when a video game already got a valid Steam application ID (P1733) statement? We all more or less know that when an item got it, it is distributed by Steam. SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 08:32, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

You can infer lots of things from identifiers. Doesn't change the fact that they serve different purposes Trade (talk) 01:32, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Web Frontend

Hi, I created a prototype at https://wikigamia.netlify.app/?id=Q111165107 with source available at gitlab:matthiasm/wikigamia to display external identifiers. It is inspired by Wikxhibit: Using HTML and Wikidata to Author Applications that Link Data Across the Web (Q115008502). Tell me what you think. Matthias M. (talk) 19:17, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

This is neat! Could use a bit more CSS, but I like it. Nicereddy (talk) 16:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I rewrote this in Next.js (Q56062435) using WikidataJS (Q87194673) as the Mavo (Q130342963) framework is extremely limited and makes simple things very difficult, despite being aimed at beginners. It also had some questionable design fundamentals by accessing properties via labels, so the official examples already bitrotted away. Anyway, my new prototype can be previewed at https://wikigames.vercel.app/ with source code URL changed to gitlab:matthiasm/wikigames and yes it is very much programmer art. Matthias M. (talk) 13:09, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

The Quiet Collection & The Quiet, Please! Collection

Should those two titles be split into different items? I am unsure if there are any actual difference besides the title itself and the platform they were released on. --Trade (talk) 21:34, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Two different entries at

• https://www.metacritic.com/game/the-quiet-collection/
• https://www.metacritic.com/game/the-quiet-please-collection/

so I would also argue for two here as well. Matthias M. (talk) 10:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

• https://www.mobygames.com/game/90202/the-quiet-collection/

One entry at MobyGames. Notice that "The Quiet Collection" is listed as the name of the game while "The "Quiet, Please!" Collection" is listed as an alternate name for the same video game collection. --Trade (talk) 22:40, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I think they're one and the same, it definitely wouldn't be the first instance of duplicates in Metacritic/GameFAQs that I've seen. I'm fairly sure their data is automatically imported and duplicate items are created if they can't reconcile the titles together. --Lewis Hulbert (talk) 23:22, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Deleted video game items

Dudelings: Arcade Sportsball (Q126527623), Bomb Bowling (Q126534024) and Billy Bumbum: A Cheeky Puzzler (Q126678450) were all nominated for deletion recently, and deleted shortly after with no discussion. I can't see deleted items but I believe they are all indie Steam games that had other identifiers. I don't know if I care enough to push back but I wanted to make a note of it in case someone else wanted to. —Xezbeth (talk) 12:41, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

A little concerning, but I'm not sure how I'd go about appealing deletion when I have no idea what the original item was. Lewis Hulbert (talk) 16:15, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

@Xezbeth, Lewis Hulbert: Thankfully I have these in vglist as well. Q126678450 was Billy Bumbum: A Cheeky Puzzler, Q126534024 was Bomb Bowling, and Q126527623 was Dudelings: Arcade Sportsball. Nicereddy (talk) 17:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I thought the rule is that anything which can be described with external identifiers is notable. These games are not the highest quality, but if we go down this rabbit hole of mass deleting games that can be found in databases that have been pain stakingly matched, then I will leave this project. Found Wikidata:Requests for deletions/Archive/2024/06/18#Q126527623. Maybe User:William Graham and User:The Squirrel Conspiracy can explain themselves here. Matthias M. (talk) 13:25, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

The notability policy states "It refers to an instance of a clearly identifiable conceptual or material entity that can be described using serious and publicly available references." What exactly is a serious reference? With a quick search the first game on the list has at least Steam, Metacritic, ModDB, GameFAQs, RAWG, MobyGames and IGDB identifiers. Steam and ModDB can probably be disregarded as self-published but I think GameFAQs, MobyGames and IGDB should be regarded as "serious sources" - even if they're primarily fuelled by user contributions it has an editorial process and all edits are reviewed by staff. --Lewis Hulbert (talk) 14:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Just for the record, IGDB accepts absolutely any released game and editions in their database, except the pornographic ones. So you can probably add any user-made Android game with 0 downloads and it will be accepted by moderation without a doubt. I've even seen some scam clones there (which the administration deletes after a report in their Discord). Solidest (talk) 14:34, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

The Mobile Games section of the contribution guidelines states "Having a title listed on the app store alone doesn't automatically mean that it will be allowed. The reason is that many games on the app stores may fall under Not Supported (such as gambling, companion apps, asset flips, learning software etc.)" - no mention of any notability requirements but a little more quality control than everything that isn't pornographic. I wouldn't call something with only an IGDB entry notable, but I think it can be used to prove notability when used in conjunction with other video game databases. --Lewis Hulbert (talk) 13:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

If you enforce Wikipedia style notability, then none of it is notable. Steam is self-published, Metacritic also adds games without any publication, ModDB, GameFAQs and MobyGames are user-generated content.

For Wikidata, my rule of thumb is searching via Mix-n-Match. If something gets picked off by at least a handful of databases, then an entry has enough value and is likely to be a real thing. Matthias M. (talk) 09:28, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I requested an undeletion at Wikidata:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/2024/07#Dudelings: Arcade Sportsball (Q126527623), Bomb_Bowling (Q126534024) and_Billy Bumbum: A Cheeky Puzzler (Q126678450) that was granted. Matthias M. (talk) 20:26, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

What to do when game switches Engine?

Example: Manor lords just switched from UE4 to UE5. (link: [1]) If we just switch it to ue5, we lose the history of it being ue4 first. IS that OK? Is there some precedent or guideline that documents this? J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 19:53, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Without knowing the "answer", I would just use qualifiers, such as start time (P580) and/or end time (P582), on each engine used (provided there are more than one). That way you keep the fact that another engine has been used previously. EdoAug (talk) 23:42, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

• @J2UDY7r00CRjH: In such cases, simply add the new engine used by the game indicating the preferred rank and add the refinement qualifier start time (P580) to indicate when it precisely started being used. Here is a specific example. Regards Kirilloparma (talk) 01:47, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Twitch categories

Heya! I see that Deadlock (Q126042383) has lifted its rules around talking about the game, including having made a Twitch category. However, when I add Twitch category ID (P4467) to the item, it uses an unexpected URL format. I see both the category and game URL formats are mentioned in the property, and this one specifically uses category. What do I do? EdoAug (talk) 23:39, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

That's interesting, I wonder if Twitch changed their underlying URL structure? We would probably want/need to update the formatter URL statement on the Twitch category ID property, assuming we're sure that the new /category/ URLs are what should be used going forward (and that they're backwards compatible). Nicereddy (talk) 16:07, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

See also: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property_talk:P4467#Format_change_-_all_links_broken Nicereddy (talk) 16:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Official website from Steam

This seems to be a field populated by bots, which is therefore undeleteable, because they will just add it back when removed. For example, Wild West Dynasty (Q111966945) is not the website of the game but of the publisher. It junks up the database with garbage data. What to do against it? Matthias M. (talk) 10:27, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I've just been deprecating the values (with qualifiers reason for deprecated rank (P2241) -> refers to different subject (Q28091153), intended subject of deprecated statement (P8327) -> [the publisher]) but it would be ideal if the bot just wasn't repeatedly reapplying it at all. --Lewis Hulbert (talk) 11:01, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I think this is coming from the Mix’n‘match catalogue − see eg https://mix-n-match.toolforge.org/#/entry/151035317 I guess the best course of action is to make a new catalogue and remove that old one. Jean-Fred (talk) 12:15, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I had noticed that a while ago, it's because of the MnM catalogue. Nicereddy (talk) 18:43, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and it's all the fault of a well-known indefinitely blocked user Matlin. He continues to periodically create new socks through which he adds so-called auxiliary data to the Mix'n'Match catalog. Is there any resolution to this problem? I'm afraid not without Magnus' intervention, guys. Unfortunately, even if we create a new catalog and deactivate the current one, Matlin will have absolutely no problem adding that auxiliary data back, and it will stay there permanently (already tested by me on other Mix'n'Match catalogs). Some time ago I informed Magnus about this problem and told him to try somehow to restrict Matlin's access to Mix'n'Match and his socks, but so far as you can see there is no concrete solution. Regards Kirilloparma (talk) 04:00, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Mix-n-match does not let you do minor editing of catalog metadata unless Magnus gives you permission. If this feature is not restricted to special permissions, then clearly it should. Matthias M. (talk) 10:35, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

That's the whole point. Since he can't edit because he's blocked, he makes his edits through a bot. Basically, if he wants to, he can even vandalize Wikidata via auxiliary data and get away with it. I'll even say more, he can add sites that are blacklisted, since bots are allowed to do that. Here by the way is a specific example when @Trade encountered this situation. And I see that this is not the first time Trade has encountered Matlin and his disruptive auxiliary data. I think Magnus definitely needs to do something and close this huge hole in Mix'n'Match, otherwise Matlin will continue to add whatever he wants via auxiliary data. Regards Kirilloparma (talk) 01:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

This was reported at User talk:Reinheitsgebot#Adding official websites which are incorrect 11 months ago with no reaction from @Magnus Manske, so I am not sure what else to do. Matthias M. (talk) 10:35, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Manske might as well get paid by the foundation with how much work he does for Wikidata Trade (talk) 11:36, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

What does auxiliary mean in this context? Trade (talk) 11:34, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@Trade: Auxiliary data - additional useful properties that are added via Mix'n'Match. They are very easy to add if you know how to use the import function. They can be useful, as in this case, to avoid inserting some data manually (like adding required statements according to some constraints) or to add other useful third-party identifiers retrieved from an external database. Also for example if you don't like QuickStatements for adding such things, the auxiliary data function is an alternative. You could also say that auxiliary data is in some cases an alternative to the {{Autofix}} template, which doesn't always work when it should. That is, instead of adding {{Autofix|pattern=(?:.+)/(\d+)|create_property=P750|create_item=Q337535}} you can do it with auxiliary data in Mix'n'Match. On the one hand it's convenient, you just click a button in the catalog jobs and all these additional properties are added by a dedicated bot, but there are a lot of negative aspects to this feature, because at the moment it's a "big hole in Mix'n'Match" and here's why:

• Since Mix'n'Match works according to the principle "once data is added, there is no going back", auxiliary data has the same effect. That is, if for instance I accidentally get a property wrong, let's say I will set distribution format (P437) >> Steam (Q337535) instead of distributed by (P750) >> Steam (Q337535), this unfortunately can not be corrected. Just like in the case of Matlin, who constantly introduces sites from Steam that either belong to other subjects or should use different properties. All the auxiliary data that he enters will remain in Mix'n'Match permanently and it's useless if we try to change or delete anything. The only option here is to deactivate the current catalog and upload a new one with already corrected/deleted auxiliary data, but this will not help in our case.
• If you upload a new catalog and deactivate the old one to get rid of bad auxiliary data, it still won't help. I already mentioned above why it won't work, but in short: having a participant like Matlin chasing you with his bad auxiliary data is a problem, because it would be easy for him to add it back into the new catalog. As I said, this data remains permanently and it is impossible to change/delete it. Creating and re-creating catalogs just to remove auxiliary data and then Matlin will still come and return everything back is, as you understand, not an option at all. The only solution here is intervention by the creator of Mix'n'Match. Nothing else. Magnus needs to try and block Matlin's access somehow.
• Through the auxiliary data, you can add spam sites (even those that are blacklisted) and vandalize items. If there is one who knows how to use the import function and knows how to add auxiliary data, it can be done easily. Here's the same Matlin who was able to add a spam link through a bot in no trouble. If we're talking about vandalism, you can just take property official website (P856) for example and write "https://www.this-game-sucks.com" instead of the actual website. I'm not going to do this, but I'm pretty sure it can be done based on the bad state of the auxiliary data feature.
• Auxiliary data can be added by any registered user and it doesn't matter if you are blocked or not, even global blocking has no effect on Mix'n'Match, because it is a tool and all edits are made not by you, but by a dedicated bot. And this is probably the main downside of this feature. Here's the proof. This Matlin's sock was blocked some time ago, and he just keeps on creating catalogs, activating jobs for them (also from his main account and his other sock), adding auxiliary data, creating new brand socks...

I think Matlin is laughing at all of us right now. He's found a hole in the system, and he's just sitting back and fooling around... Of course he doesn't care, it's obvious, but it will take months, if not years, for others to clean up his mess, and that's not funny at all. Regards Kirilloparma (talk) 00:25, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Then block the bot until the only maintainer has time to fix it. Matthias M. (talk) 10:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I'll ask in the Wikidata Telegram chat about blocking the bot. We could also delete the Steam catalogue, since it's not especially useful itself. I think undoing the damage here shouldn't be _too_ bad, assuming we can write a script to just find all the official websites on video games and check if they were added by this bot. If they were, we just delete the statement. Nicereddy (talk) 18:48, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

The Steam catalog is now disabled, so it shouldn't get pulled in by the bot anymore. Now we just need someone to write a script to undo the damage... I'd offer, but I'm busy this weekend. I could possibly do it next weekend if it's still not fixed then. Nicereddy (talk) 19:02, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

3D vs. 2D distinction in genres

Hiya! I've noticed, mostly due to new, untranslated labels related to nowiki, that some genres have been split into 2D and 3D subgenres. These are pretty tricky to translate in a natural fashion, and is leaving a lot of would-be links left unlinked on projects that use these genres in infoboxes. I am currently seeing this for 2D fighting game (Q127602751) and 3D fighting game (Q130270628), where I don't necessarily see why the distinction is important in lieu of something like uses (P2283)3D computer graphics (Q189177) (or something along those lines). Are there other distinctions that have been discussed or made? I'm mostly asking, in case I'll have to make new redirects on nowiki. EdoAug (talk) 02:43, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi!

The idea is that some genres play fundamentally differently in 2D vs in 3D, so the 2D side-scrollers and 3D platformer are as good as different genres.

The subtle thing is that 2D/3D distinction in genres is not fully based on the use of 2D/3D graphics, but on the distinct gameplay space. For example, Pandemonium! (Q427198), while it does use 3D graphics, is a 2D platform game (Q116790414) because it does actually play in 2D and not in 3D. So, while 3D graphics are a prerequisite for 3D games, we can have 2D games rendered in 3D (that’s also where the whole 2.5D moniker might come in play).

But as always, we need sources to back this up − Glitchwave (Q108223206) has one the more sophisticated genre ontology around ; while discontinued I find ‎AllGame style ID (P12810) of high-quality. Specialized sources also work, for the fighting game split I leant on this Fighting Game Glossary

(There has been some discussion about it on the Telegram group, but not on-wiki I think.)

Also @Solidest: who discussed that too.

Happy to discuss it further!

Jean-Fred (talk) 08:13, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I missed one question − as far as I know, and as confirmed by Wikidata:WikiProject Video games/Lists/Genres and Wikidata:WikiProject_Video_games/Lists/Genres_by_external_identifiers, there’s only platform and fighting that have such a split. Jean-Fred (talk) 09:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Forgot to mention the canonical example for fighting: Street Fighter IV (Q914286) is a 2D fighter with 3D graphics. Jean-Fred (talk) 09:03, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Platformers and fighting games have this separation because it significantly affects the basis of the gameplay. For platformers, I think it's clear because it's literally a reinvented gameplay. But for fighting games, the addition of a third dimension only adds a few mechanics like zoning to the original gameplay. And since this is supported by external IDs, I suppose it's fine to keep them separate. But the other possible issue is the place of 3D fighting games in the hierarchy. In the fighting game community, the differences between 2D and 3D are considered important enough to call the genres parallel (different cyber-sports disciplines with the difficulty of transitioning between them), but I'm sceptical about that. We can say that the basis of the genres is essentially the same (roughly, 80%), but the whole difference in 3D fighting is an addition (of 20%) rather than a reinvention. So it seems to me that conceptually 3D fighting can be considered a sub-genre of 2D fighting. But that's not really supported by the sources, and we have versus fighting game (Q115558415), which is a nice root for both. P.S. Another obvious example of 2D fighting with 3D graphics is the Mortal Kombat (Q241163) series.

And in relation to this division, it seems to me that the existence of 2.5D platform game (Q116811570) separately is not really justified. The type of graphics doesn't add anything new to the core genre process. And 2.5d graphics can be applied to different genres, I think, and should be modelled in a different way through "2.5d visual style" or something like that. Solidest (talk) 11:54, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Meta items

Indonesian and English Wikipedias include Pokémon Yellow (Q1988120) in Pokémon Red and Blue (Q637137), while not the rest. Pokémon Red and Green (Q91030617) exists, so I moved the Malay Wikipedia sitelink there, which included Pokémon Green (Q11942165). What I want to know, should part of (P361) be moved to derivative work (P4969)? Should there be a meta item and let idwiki and enwiki with intentional sitelink redirects in the original item? Or did I do the right thing? I'm not sure if criterion used (P1013) or applies to part (P518) fix it. Web-julio (talk) 05:33, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Defunct distribution platforms

• ShinyLoot
• IndieCity
• IndieVania
• IndieGameStand

Could anyone help me find more information about these platforms? Such as the exact time they went offline, logos or similar. Its hard to find info Trade (talk) 22:40, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

False genres

Somebody seems to have indiscriminately dumped lots of video games into the genre educational game/educational video game and the genre science fantasy video game. Please fix this mess.

Mario is not an educational video game. The problem is worse for science fantasy – it seems like entirely disconnected from what science fantasy is about that is a combination of science fiction and fantasy. There are games like Doom (scifi horror), LittleBigPlanet, or Mario & Luigi. Prototyperspective (talk) 21:59, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for posting here.

• Just to clarify something first − the discussion title is “false genres” − does that mean you don’t think educational video game (Q1224999) should exist at all?
• educational game (Q1140363) should not be used on Q7889-items and should very likely be replaced with educational video game (Q1224999) (Based on your link there are only <50 such cases though). I checked a couple and both were sourced to PCGamingWiki by User:A particle for world to form − Anton, if you plan to re-run that import script can you make sure to change that?
• Not too sure what you mean with the Mario example − sure they’re mostly platformers but Mario Is Missing! (Q2517563) or Mario Teaches Typing (Q11880942) sure are educational video game (Q1224999), no?
  • I see it’s also on Mario (Q4803535) and Mario video game series (Q97371666) − there’s that (I think Wikipedia-infobox-driven) pattern to list all genres of a series on the series-item. I personally don’t think that’s good (especially when the series/franchise covers many many genres, like Mario), and I don’t think we discussed it before.
• I don’t much about science fantasy video game (Q107542272) so I can’t comment on that ; it looks like this was all imported from en:Category:Science fantasy video games via QuickStatements batch #59480 (EditGroup) by @Trade:.

Jean-Fred (talk) 22:33, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks about your quick response!
1. No, I meant that many items have that genre set when they aren't of that genre.
3. The whole Mario games series not just these are classed as educational games. For your second example I probably wouldn't consider it educational and it has been called "not very educational" but it's been called and marketed as an educational game and maybe it is to some extent (I haven't played it) and thus the genre seems appropriate there. Yes, I was referring to these two items.
4. The problem then was at the WMC cat, one could remove all items but then a few correctly categorized items would be missing since a small number of them are probably set correctly. Prototyperspective (talk) 22:43, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not planning to do any imports in near future, but changed the item in the code. A particle for world to form (talk) 23:54, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Could somebody please undo this batch? Prototyperspective (talk) 14:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I have now updated all ~40 -instance of (P31)video game (Q7889)+-genre (P136)educational game (Q1140363) to have instead -genre (P136)educational video game (Q1224999) Jean-Fred (talk) 16:52, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

As for #59480 (EditGroup) − if you think there are way more errors than correct statements − sure, feel free to undo it. Jean-Fred (talk) 16:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I would but don't see any revert/undo button here. Wikidata:Edit groups claims it's possible to revert batches but I don't see how or the page doesn't describe how to do so. Prototyperspective (talk) 18:35, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I have two ideas for subpages on how to improve this WikiProject

I'm thinking about creating two new sections on this WikiProject and I'll explain why I think they may be needed, in no particular order:

• Notability review of video games. It would allow editors who are too reluctant to create new Wikidata Q items of video games or are unsure of if the video game they want to add is notable enough and other editors could comment on if a game up for review is notable or not. The page could also be used for like 'guidelines' of what is notable for the WikiProject's standards. Especially if many users comment on a particular item it could help to form consensus around what guidelines we may want. I got some games here which I have not created and if the review page is made I could copy them over to the page so you can tell me your opinion. May make them more visible, anyway here they are: User:SuperUltraHardCoreGamer/SteamDeckContributors#Before_2024.
• Steam Deck - this is probably my weakest argument, I doubt you'll be convinced to encourage me to create a separate subpage just for this. I have two examples on how to edit items that are either playable or verified on my user page. This subpage I'm proposing could make it easier for editors to learn how to add playable or verified titles for this console, the page could help in coordination between editors, what properties and values to use and in references as well. The examples are on my user page here User:SuperUltraHardCoreGamer#Example_items_which_enable_editors_to_learn_a_specific_thing, 2 examples. What P and Q to use for Steam Deck verified and playable titles. Perhaps you'd want something more general that could also apply to other consoles?

SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 21:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

See Wikidata:Notability which boils to if it exists and if you can find references like external database identifiers, then it can be added. Basically, almost everything on Mix'n'match (Q28054658) can be added, and stuff from Wikipedia is already here. There is no need to review individual games. By definition, everything is notable here, even though Wikipedia is stricter. If something is deleted accidentally, please mention it here and we can propose to restore them.

Wikidata:Requests for deletions/Archive/2023/12/31#Bulk deletion request: video games owned by Stanford University Libraries is the only time we deleted references to games in a library for maintenance reasons, but essentially, we only removed duplicates. Matthias M. (talk) 13:46, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I think it might be nice to have an example items list for how to do various things, particularly relatively niche/uncommon things. I thought we had one but now I can't find it 🤔

As for the notability review, I think we could do that in this talk page if people are confused on it, but generally as Matthias said, an identifier from any major store is sufficient (Steam, GOG, Xbox, PlayStation, Nintendo eShop, etc). Nicereddy (talk) 06:58, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you and if anyone deletes my items in the future I can just quote you or refer them to this WikiProject.

Suddenly I feel much more welcome to start adding/creating new Wikidata Q items again :) SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 07:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Created Wikidata:WikiProject Video games/Example Items List. Can be found in Tasks --> 4. Others and Example Items List. If you have a better idea for where it should be located please move it or suggest something. SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 18:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Category of games that start with "The" should or should not be listed under "T"?

Games like "The Elder Scrolls" and "The Behemoth" I've seen being ie. listed under "E"(The Elder Scrolls) and "B"(The Behemoth). I expected so far all games that start with "T" should be listed under "T". Not like here Wikidata:WikiProject_Video_games/2004_video_games where games like "The Sims 2" is listed under S, "The Bard's Tale" is listed under B etc.

What do you think about this? SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 09:07, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, I'm not quite sure what the point of these pages are for? Surely the point of having structured data is that we can query it rather than having static page lists, e.g. query for a list of 2004 video games. --Lewis Hulbert (talk) 15:07, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

The page also doesn't seem to be to linked from somewhere, delete? Sjoerd de Bruin (talk) 15:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

They are linked to the Wikidata item. SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 08:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Specifically Category:2004 video games (Q6847440) in regards to Wikidata:WikiProject_Video_games/2004_video_games. SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 08:27, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Delete or replace? Could be replaced with a ListeriaBot page...as long as the query takes into account alphabetical order. Also why not "fix it" by linking to it? The other alternative is we just delete it all and forget this type of organizing ever happened. SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 06:49, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh, these are static? Then I’d agree we can delete them. I guess they served some purpose back in 2013, but that’s long past now :) Jean-Fred (talk) 19:37, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

If you are going to put them up for deletion please add a link here so that I know somebody decided to take action. Queries are definitely the way to go. SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 05:29, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Less related to lists themselves, but I took a look through them and noticed a concerning number of items deleted for notability, especially on the pages for the 90s and early 00s. Many of these are console games with physical releases, e.g. Q5886852 (Mobygames) and Q7361095 (Mobygames). --Lewis Hulbert (talk) 15:38, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

What is the best way to add references to the property distributed by (P750)

Hello, I'm sorry if it has been asked several times already but I didn't find my answer in the archives.

I'd like to know what are the best practices regarding the references of the property distributed by (P750). For a game distributed by GOG.com (Q1486288) should we use:

option A, distributed by (P750) -> GOG.com (Q1486288) / ref stated in (P248) -> GOG.com (Q1486288)

It looks like a duplication of information to me, and I don't know if platforms such as GOG.com (Q1486288) are considered reliable secondary sources to reference statements in general.

or:

option B, distributed by (P750) -> GOG.com (Q1486288) / ref reference URL (P854) -> URL of the game on the distributor's platform

or something else?

I'm asking the question because in some cases it's possible to easily find the mention of popular platforms like GOG.com or Steam in secondary sources like Eurogamer (Q281243), but for some platforms like Nintendo eShop (Q3070866) it's not always possible to find secondary sources. Thank you very much Rigoluce (talk) 11:10, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Should we also add the property distributed by (P750) to the data model to clarify its usage for future contributors? Rigoluce (talk) 11:15, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Let's clear up a few things semantically.

It's sometimes quite wrong what many people are doing on Video Games in Wikidata, where distributed by (P750) is being used because oftentimes there are completely non-factual false statements or inherently wrong, legally speaking. It's not even the right frame of mind that many people often want to do. Which is, instead of legal agreement definitions which is in reality what the distributed by (P750) really captures... instead, folks often simply want to "link" the Video Game entity in Wikidata, to the Video Game entity on a game store or catalog page.

So, first some history lessons and a bit of legal clarity that generally covers most of the world's distribution systems and how they work (not 100%, but good enough for this discussion)...

Games are at the highest level a Creative work which is then used to created a bunch of Products. Yes, they have distributors for those Products, which then allow "selling rights" to wholesalers and retailers. "Stores" are what are considered a retail part of the distribution system. So...there are "game stores", like Steam Store, Netflix Game Store, Epic Games Store, Gog.com Store/Catalog, etc. where all of them typically have or mint an identifier for a distributed game, i.e. a unique identifier (Q6545185).

There are game developers.

There are game publishers.

There are game distributors.

There are game stores. (sometimes, yes, sometimes, a distributor HAS A game store.)

etc.

Don't always assume that a game store IS A or IS THE distributor. Often, they are not, and you'd have to get the distribution rights contractual agreements to actually see who the legal entity is under the "distributor clause". To be pedantic, Gog.com's Store is allowed to sell games because of legal agreements coordinated between CD Projekt Red and a game developer/distributor/owner/etc. But who cares about that level of detail, unless you're a lawyer/attorney.

So when folks use the distributed by (P750) its SOMETIMES wrong saying that Steam is a distributor of a game, or a digital distributor. Sometimes they are, sometimes they really are not, and are only the store - you'd have to be privy to the individual distribution contract to know for sure.

Instead, it's MUCH easier to do this:

In Wikidata, we can easily link game ids appearing on game stores to a Wikidata entity for a game, which is best done through normal Linked Data means. For Wikidata, Linked Data is handled by the superclass Wikidata property for an identifier (Q19847637) (and all of it's various subclasses).

If you look at GOG.com (Q1486288) and scroll down on it, you'll find a Wikidata property for it's associated "ID" like GOG application ID (P2725) which is what you would add to a game entity and then fill in the GOG ID, such as `turok` for https://www.gog.com/en/game/turok on Turok: Dinosaur Hunter (Q2431467) Thadguidry (talk) 09:22, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore, I'd say that NO ONE should add a statement of distributed by (P750) unless they can actually provide a reference to a legally binding distribution clause, or a statement or webpage from the developer or publisher that says `distributed by [entity]`. A harder job to find, but you could ask the developer/publisher, and would likely be flat-out told NO (because of $$$ dollar amounts often agreed to within such legal agreements) Thadguidry (talk) 09:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you so much for all these clarifications, I understand better now.

I recently added two game expansions The Pale Reach (Q131147188) and The Iron Rig (Q130975373), and I misused the property distributed by (P750) by adding the stores as values instead of the real distributors. I should delete those statements right? and instead create statements using the identifiers of the related stores as properties? Rigoluce (talk) 11:47, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Whatever you can do to make more truthy statements, then the whole world benefits. Revert or delete what you entered incorrectly and make further statements with correct information. Thadguidry (talk) 08:25, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I tried to delete the statements distributed by (P750) of one the two game expansions mentioned above, but apparently the property Steam application ID (P1733) has a contraint that requires the declaration of distributed by (P750) Steam (Q337535). Similar properties, like the id of game in the Nintento eShop, have the same kind of contraint. Each time we add one of those ids, we are "forced" to add the related distributed by (P750) property.

Does it mean that Steam is never just a store and always the distributor of games available on its platform?

So, should I keep the statements distributed by (P750) without any reference? Currently I don't have sources that clearly mention "distributed by Steam", instead I have sources mentioning "available on Steam". Rigoluce (talk) 10:10, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for making this post. I can't tell you what you should or should not do, but I can tell you what I've done so far.

> 'd like to know what are the best practices regarding the references of the property distributed by (P750). For a game distributed by GOG.com (Q1486288) should we use:

Thank you for opening this. I have often thought about opening multiple "best practices" for this and that. Happy you are leading the way.

You can see what I've done here Mark of the Ninja: Remastered (Q130755528), I'm sort of a "perfectionist" so you can see that everything I add has a reference. If you have any questions, please ask them.

This part can be safely skipped unless you want to know more about the background behind this post:

I had made a long post but I realized it was too much and my level of confusion was growing by the minute so I decided to dump it all on an etherpad(A Wikimedia etherpad) by the name of distributedby and as "permalink" "#1" which can be put at the end of a url for timeslider so it looks like timeslider#1. Anyway I put my longer and sometimes "incoherent" post there for you to read if you want a bit more of the background. SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 12:21, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer, and for taking the time to write an etherpad, thank you very much. I did consider using the property inferred from (P3452) to correctly reference the sources of distributed by (P750). Now my new concern is about the meaning of distributed by (P750) for video games. The contraint forcing us to use this property each time an element has the property Steam application ID (P1733) makes me think that all digital video game stores are de-facto distributors of the provided games, at least for Wikidata As Thadguidry said earlier, I wonder if it's true. Rigoluce (talk) 19:16, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I don’t really have much insight on what distributed by (P750) is supposed to mean, and which legal basis it implies − but per Wikidata:WikiProject Video games/Statistics/Distributor, using P750 on video game items is a bit beyond really “something that many people are doing” − it’s the de-facto standard for modeling stores, and there are definitely bots/constraints that enforce it. We can change that of course, but my point is that it’s really not a matter of reverting here and there − it’s tens of thousands of items that we should consider fixing (if fixing needs be). Jean-Fred (talk) 13:40, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

You're right. For now I'm gonna continue using distributed by (P750) to comply with the current constraints of Steam application ID (P1733). Let's see if other contributors have more insights. Rigoluce (talk) 19:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I'll just point everyone to the distributed by (P750) discussion page on exactly the problem of continuing to use distributed by IN ADDITION TO an external id when we have it: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property_talk:P750#c-Lockal-2021-01-12T13:11:00.000Z-Time_to_stop_the_madness_of_deduced_statements?

(besides the legal ambiguity, and sometimes untruthyness of those statements using distributed by (P750) for any creative works on digital distribution platform (Q19307174), which I'm fine with, there's the duplication that's unwarranted, and I'm not fine with, just like Lockal (talk • contribs • logs)) -- Thadguidry (talk) 02:25, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it should be avoided. We also don't have "distributed by Walmart" for household supplies, plus it is redundant to the external identifier. Matthias M. (talk) 21:42, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

My interest now is, will this lead to any actions being taken or will this take longer(ie. waiting more for consensus discussions)? ie. Are we ready to change the constraints in Steam application ID (P1733) so that it stops requiring users of this WikiProject to add distributed by statements? Do you expect me to do this change?(it's cool with me if you request it, but still I have to think about it before I take action). This is what it looks like right now:

property constraint	item-requires-statement constraint edit property distributed by item of property constraint Steam constraint status mandatory constraint 0 references add reference
		add value

We remove this and then it's not required anymore. SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 11:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the proposition : ) I'd like to add more ideas before taking a decision. It's actually very good to have different opinions and options on this subject. I hope we will clarify the role of distributed by (P750) in the video game data model. Even if the property is not part of the data model, it still used by contributors.

In my opinion having a property like distributed by (P750) is relevant, even if it can be seen redundant with external identifiers. For instance, it makes it easy for a person, or a script, to know where a game is available online. They just have to check the property distributed by (P750) and each value is a store. If we rely only on external identifiers, the person, or the script, have to know each property of each identifier related to a store by heart. It's not a big problem, but it will be easier for users and API consumers to be able to easily answer the question "where can I find this game online" by checking only one property. This can be an argument in favour of the usage of distributed by (P750).

BUT

Our current problem seems to be the following: distributed by (P750) refers to actual distributors of games, not stores. The current usage of the property doesn't seem to match the meaning of the property itself. Except, if we realize that somehow a digital store is always the digital distributor of hosted games. If we managed to answer positively to the question "Is a digital store always the digital distributor of their games", then the problem is easily solved. The P750 is the correct property to use.

If the answer is negative, two options: (1) we may need an alternative property to P750, like "available on digital store", or "available on store" ; (2) or not, and we rely only on external identifiers. Rigoluce (talk) 13:16, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the summary. I think I agree with your conclusion: either we want to stop storing the store items and rely on the extIDs, or we continue doing that but with a dedicated property. content deliverer (P3274) could be an alternative? Also, I wonder whether others fields (music, movies, podcasts) are also struggling with a similar problem. Jean-Fred (talk) 14:22, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

My pleasure. I randomly checked some movies used as examples in the WikiProjet Movies data model, and it looks like the property distributed by (P750) is used to refer to both the distributors, and the digital platforms like Netflix and so on (which may be distributors too). See Gone with the Wind (Q2875), The Revenant (Q18002795), Titanic (Q44578), etc. I didn't find any mention of our problematic in the main talk page of the project, or in its archives. Rigoluce (talk) 21:19, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

The more I dig, the more I think all games on Steam are distributed by Steam. A content published on Steam must always comply with the Steam distribution agreement, as stated in https://partner.steamgames.com/steamdirect. It implies that there is a legal agreement between the developer or publisher and Steam regarding the distribution, right?

Without more information I currently think continuing using P750 makes a lot of sense. Rigoluce (talk) 23:48, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Remote Play Together, is that a "game mode" and how do I add it?

Check the Steam Application ID 1446370 and you'll see(if you browse to it today at 2024-11-21) that there is a "Remote Play Together" between "Includes level editor" and "Family Sharing". Do we enter that as data here at Wikidata or do we lack the property needed for that.

In practice it sort of means that if you are part of the same "software system" and 2 users, let's say they are friends, are connected to the same system and they want to play together but the game does not support anything but local multiplayer but one friend is currently in the USA and the other one is currently in the EU so they can't physically be together to play locally.

Luckily for them the developers have enabled Remote Play Together which means they can virtually be connected to the same system as if they both were in the same physical location and both will see what's going on in the game.

It's possible I got it wrong, but can you relate to this and do we have a way to add this? Is this a game mode or is it something else here on Wikidata? SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 13:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

What I understand is that the Remote Play Together is a feature provided by Steam allowing the users to play online with their contacts. As you said, the first twist is that you can play online the video games that natively support only the offline multiplayer game mode. The second twist is that only one user needs to install the game.

According to me, the game mode multiplayer video game (Q6895044) already captures the multiplayer aspect of it. BUT it doesn't capture the specific configuration: you can play online even if the game is natively offline, you need only one copy of the game, and it's only on Steam.

In my opinion I think it's worth having a way to explicitly capture this specificity, the same way the existing game mode hotseat (Q1630770) describes a multiplayer mode where players play by taking turns. If I'm not mistaken games that can be played through Remote Play Together already provide a local multiplayer mode. We could mention the specific technology Remote Play Together (or a generic streaming technology) using a qualifier.

On the other hand I wonder if it's useful to mention this because most of the offline multiplayer games can already be played online using non officially supported streaming technologies. I'm not very sure because I'm still a newcomer, but I think it could be worth mentioning the existence of an officially supported streaming technology as Remote Play Together. Rigoluce (talk) 19:58, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

If you are asking for expert opinion on this: (me ;-) - a game dev/publisher/advocate/data_architect, who's managed backend data systems for some game and streaming services...

The best way to capture this is through game mode (P404) statement with a brand new item: "Steam Remote Play" https://store.steampowered.com/remoteplay/ a subclass of "multiplayer game streaming" (new item) which is a new technology subclass for "game streaming" (new item) Game Streaming (Q55465405) (disambiguation).

The reasoning is because already Sony, Steam, and other online gaming communities have "game streaming" capabilities, and for some games, support for "multiplayer game streaming".

-| PS Remote Play (Q124426404) <--| merge these

-| Remote Play (Q4048176) <-------| merge these

-| Steam Remote Play (New) uses (P2283) "Steam Link" which uses (P2283) "game streaming" - https://store.steampowered.com/remoteplay/

---| Steam Remote Play Together (New) uses (P2283) "multiplayer game streaming" subclass of (P279) "game streaming" - DESC: multiplayer game streaming technology from Steam where one player owns and runs the game, then up to four players, or even more with fast connections, can join.

And if you want to optionally hoist the "game streaming" classification, it would fall under "cloud gaming", or you might add that alias to "game streaming", but that would be overloaded. GeForce Now (Q28133964) is one such example already as an instance of (P31) cloud gaming service (Q85632250) . Thadguidry (talk) 10:29, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Change "Newly created items" to "Newly created items index" and make subpages maintained by ListeriaBot maintained by WikiProject instead of on personal user pages only

I suggest we move some of the pages maintained by ListeriaBot to the WikiProject and let's start with myself and I say that after also having viewed other subpages, ie. Recently created video game remakes that fit well in a "Newly created items index" subp-page of this WikiProject. Perhaps not actually change it but add a section on the same page with "More newly created items regularly updated pages" or a section called == Regularly Updated Pages in-depth == then we put it all there.

My suggestion is that we can create more indexes for subpages that keep track of things that change a lot after some time.

These are 2 of my subpages tracked and maintained by ListeriaBot(in no particular order):

• User:SuperUltraHardCoreGamer/NintendoSwitchProgressListeriaBot
• User:SuperUltraHardCoreGamer/SteamDeckProgressListeriaBot

I'd like them to not be on my user-page, but they are useful to me and I think they could be useful to you as well! If you think they are, let me know, otherwise I'll guess they'll stay on my user page but they are related to video games so in theory they have nothing to do on my talk page.

If you got a sub-page of video game related queries that get updated by ListeriaBot or you have a suggestion for a new query to be regularly maintained by a similar bot feel welcome to suggest it here. SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 08:15, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Difference between DLC and expansion pack (Q1066707 vs Q209163)

Today most of the video game expansions are distributed digitally as downloadable content (Q1066707), and the term DLC is widely used by secondary sources. Sometimes in a single news we can find both terms DLC and expansion referring to the same thing.

When should we use expansion pack (Q209163) and when should we use downloadable content (Q1066707)

For instance, I don't know if Vampire Survivors: Ode to Castlevania (Q131308434) is a DLC or an expansion pack of Vampire Survivors (Q110726215). I'm also confused regarding The Iron Rig (Q130975373) and Dredge (Q113647971).

Thank you very much for your help : ) Rigoluce (talk) 09:41, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Is it possible that expansion pack is an older term before downloading game updates from the internet was a common thing?

On another topic if you want you can add yourself to the WikiProject list of members on the main page, I hope this suggestion makes you feel more welcome in this WikiProject community :) SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 11:22, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Steam labels it as DLC. https://store.steampowered.com/dlc/1794680/ Regards Matthias M. (talk) 21:37, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. It looks like Steam labels everything that can be downloaded, OST included, as "downloadable content" or DLC. Curiously in the link shared above, Ode to Castlevania is the only downloadable content that doesn't have DLC written in its top left ribbon. I don't know if it means something. Rigoluce (talk) 22:13, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

On Steam I'm used to that everything that exists there, I think even demos, have their own separate Steam Application ID. ie. HalfLife_2 got ID 220. Half-Life 2 (Q193581). The demo got its own ID: 119. If you are on the Steam page for Half Life 2, then you can hover your mouse over the Demo and it will show the number 119 along with install or something, specifically javascript:ShowGotSteamModal( 'steam://install/219', "Half-Life 2: Demo", "Download" ). Half-Life 2: Demo (Q122658349) SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 08:42, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Members roles and skillset

I added on members the reason I joined and my skills. I hope nobody takes offense at this edit. Nobody else had added about themselves why they joined the WikiProject and nobody also have also not added their skills. I mean some of us are great at using the QuickStatements or what its called. One day I may get that skill and if I do I hope its ok I add it. Could be useful to other community members to see what I'm good at, thus easier for them to understand if its worth it to ask me something on my talk page or expect me to reply on WikiProject topics they open here on the talk page. What do you think? SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 11:29, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Before I change the constraint/constraints of Steam application ID (P1733)

I'm considering adding a constraint to Steam application ID (P1733) and I'll explain why.

Let's start with simple things. Right now on our main page of this WikiProject it says (yes, it's on Wikidata:WikiProject_Video_games)

> This project is mainly dealing with a handful of classes (ie with instance of (P31)).

> video game mod (Q865493)

According to this wording it seems like we are suggesting to people that if something is a video game mod, we are suggesting that they add video game mod (Q865493) to the item in question. So far so good? This might be outdated, but if it isn't I guess I need to change the constraint. Ok let's go to the next topic of concern:

I am right now viewing Portal: Revolution (Q124208899). Steam Application ID got an exclamation point symbol like this ❕ but with a ring around it and in a very visible black color. The problem is

> subject type constraint

> Entities using the Steam application ID property should be instances of one of the following classes (or of one of their subclasses), but Portal: Revolution currently isn't:

> video game

> expansion pack

> video game compilation

etc. So what I want to change is to also add to the constraints of allowed instance of (P31) = video game mod (Q865493) unless things have changed since we added that suggestion to our front page. SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 19:15, 28 November 2024 (UTC) We are talking about as early as 2014, maybe/probably even earlier. It suggested instance of = video game mod. This still the case now in 2024? SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 19:20, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I went ahead and changed the constraint accordingly (Special:Diff/2280880228). I (for one) never gave any thought as to whether mods would have Steam IDs, but it does make sense. Thanks for bringing it up! Jean-Fred (talk) 20:43, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, that's helpful. SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 10:03, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

100 steam items list added 2024-12-08

I made a list of 100 items of which at the time did not have an item on Wikidata. This is the list:

• 100 steam items added 2024-12-08.

This list was hand-written and you can comment on the quality of the list. I went to the steam pages at the time and then I also went to IGDB. My previous process was to add everything myself but this time around I'm gonna let this list be here for anyone who might find the games interesting/useful to work on.

If you find any of these games having any sexual content please notify me as I did not check them specifically for that, but any items in this list also at the time all appeared in /greatondeck and I'm used to most games with sexual content not appearing there.(I guess for Public Relations reasons Valve doesn't think that's appropriate). I have no intent on adding any games with sexual content to Wikidata that refuse to appear in /greatondeck. Some exceptions do happen though. Anyway the difference between this process and the previous one I had is that now I can work on the next list, then when that finished I may start checking this list, just to see if there was any interest. I'm highly motivated to work on these lists, so motivation is not a problem. SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 07:58, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

That I won't create Wikidata items that are video games and have sexual content should not mean I will not add some data to them if other users add them here. I just don't know enough about this Wikiproject to know what our stance is on this. SuperUltraHardCoreGamer (talk) 09:09, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I created a list of external modifiers from MobyGames (Q612975) and wanted to automatically import missing games here. Most of them were hentai or DLCs containing in-game items. I aborted my plans. Steam (Q337535) and itch.io (Q22905933) seem to be flooded with them. Just like on those storefronts, Wikidata has no exclusion rule for sexual content. I just didn't import them because I am personally not interested in such content. Matthias M. (talk) 20:47, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

If you're looking to import a lot of Steam games you might be interested in checking out WikidataBot's Steam parser to save yourself a lot of manual work. I've created a few items this way, e.g. Brighter Shores (Q130993762), where this many statements were populated automatically saving me a considerable amount of time.

Sexual content is fine for Wikidata, but it is more difficult to find external IDs because many websites choose to not to document adult content. IGDB does have adult content, but afaik it doesn't get automatically imported like other Steam games because they need to review it against their adult content policy. --Lewis Hulbert (talk) 04:30, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

No opposition to adult games from me. Not particularly interested in them, but I've not excluded them from bulk imports I've done in the past. It definitely tends to lean toward being more likely to be "shovelware", though. Nicereddy (talk) 02:32, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

"season pass (Q55632755), battle pass (Q55605057) and unofficial expansion pack (Q131406074)"

Is this supposed to be used with instance of (P31)? Trade (talk) 09:57, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Possible update required of the PlayStation Store ID format constraint

Hello everyone,

I have a problem regarding the current format contraint of the property Europe PlayStation Store ID (P5971). I found a DLC on the store with a format that is not yet accepted by the property. I created a new subject of the property talk page 👇️

Property talk:P5971#Some identifiers of the PlayStation Stores don't match the current format contraint

Thank you very much Rigoluce (talk) 19:45, 9 December 2024 (UTC)