Wikidata:Property proposal/grade of kanji
grade of kanji
editOriginally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Lexemes
| Description | degree of difficulty of kanji |
|---|---|
| Represents | grade of kanji (Q53786149) |
| Data type | Item |
| Domain | kanji (Q item [instance of kanji character (Q53764782)] or Lexeme?) |
| Allowed values | grade 1 kyōiku kanji (Q53785300), grade 2 kyōiku kanji (Q53785302), grade 3 kyōiku kanji (Q53785303), grade 4 kyōiku kanji (Q53785305), grade 5 kyōiku kanji (Q53785308), grade 6 kyōiku kanji (Q53785310), jōyō kanji (Q875368), jinmeiyō kanji (Q1439720) or hyōgai kanji (Q4502863) |
| Example | |
| Source | "grade" parameter of wiktionary:Template:ja-kanji |
Motivation
I'm not sure Chinese characters (including kanji) should be Q item or Lexeme, but this property is useful to describe kanji. Okkn (talk) 17:36, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Discussion
Support NMaia (talk) 10:57, 21 May 2018 (UTC)- Support ArthurPSmith (talk) 14:48, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Support --Was a bee (talk) 21:03, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Comment @Okkn: Why don't we add JIS level-1 kanji (Q54312488), JIS level-2 kanji (Q54312491), JIS level-3 kanji (Q54312492), JIS level-4 kanji (Q54312495) and JIS supplementary kanji (Q54312498) to the allowed values? These are also categories of Kanji characters designated in Japanese Industrial Standards (Q774901). hyōgai kanji (Q4502863) just means "Kanji characters not shown in the list of jōyō kanji (Q875368)", so I think it will be useful if we use more detailed JIS categories for minor characters.--何三（S） (talk) 15:54, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- @何三（S）: Thank you for commenting. JIS kanji level category will be very useful, but not all jōyō kanji (Q875368) is JIS level-1 kanji (Q54312488) ("曖" is jōyō kanji (Q875368) but JIS level-2 kanji (Q54312491)), and not all JIS level-1 kanji (Q54312488) is jōyō kanji (Q875368) or jinmeiyō kanji (Q1439720) ("畦" is JIS level-1 kanji (Q54312488) but not jōyō kanji (Q875368) nor jinmeiyō kanji (Q1439720)). If we store both "grade" and "JIS level" in the same property, it will be harder to get the intended data. So I think JIS level should be stored in other property. What do you think? Shall I propose a new property for JIS level? --Okkn (talk) 17:45, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Okkn: I got your point. JIS level can be held in another property. If so, the property name "degree of difficulty of kanji" should be changed, because JIS level is also a kind of "difficulty" of kanji. (I cannot come up with the alternative, though...) （日本語では「日常使用の目安による漢字の分類」とかになるのかもしれませんが、教育漢字については微妙にちがいますよね。）
- @何三（S）: Thank you for commenting. JIS kanji level category will be very useful, but not all jōyō kanji (Q875368) is JIS level-1 kanji (Q54312488) ("曖" is jōyō kanji (Q875368) but JIS level-2 kanji (Q54312491)), and not all JIS level-1 kanji (Q54312488) is jōyō kanji (Q875368) or jinmeiyō kanji (Q1439720) ("畦" is JIS level-1 kanji (Q54312488) but not jōyō kanji (Q875368) nor jinmeiyō kanji (Q1439720)). If we store both "grade" and "JIS level" in the same property, it will be harder to get the intended data. So I think JIS level should be stored in other property. What do you think? Shall I propose a new property for JIS level? --Okkn (talk) 17:45, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- But each kyōiku kanji (Q17025353), jōyō kanji (Q875368) and jinmeiyō kanji (Q1439720) was established for its own (different) purpose, so is it really appropriate to make a property that allows these values only? My idea is to make this property more general, and can store multiple "kanji level" values, including studying level, daily use level, and JIS level. This might also contain some historical classification of kanji level like Tōyō kanji (Q1144657). What do you think? --何三（S） (talk) 15:19, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with you that the current description is not good. By the way, I proposed this property based on wiktionary:Template:ja-kanji, so my target was only kyōiku kanji (Q17025353), jōyō kanji (Q875368) and jinmeiyō kanji (Q1439720). Actually, kyōiku kanji (Q17025353), jōyō kanji (Q875368) and jinmeiyō kanji (Q1439720) are commonly given in kanji dictionaries (漢和辞典). I think these three classifications are forming one consistent group, because all kyōiku kanji (Q17025353) are entirely included in jōyō kanji (Q875368), and the purpose of designating jinmeiyō kanji (Q1439720) might be to complement the jōyō kanji (Q875368). However, I think Tōyō kanji (Q1144657) can also be the value of this property. That is because the current jōyō kanji (Q875368) and jinmeiyō kanji (Q1439720) have also been changed, and all the history of designation should be able to be traced. I think this property should not be more generalized than this. --Okkn (talk) 18:30, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Support OK, now I understand. Then this property should hold kyōiku kanji (Q17025353), jōyō kanji (Q875368), jinmeiyō kanji (Q1439720) and their correspondents in history. --何三（S） (talk) 16:07, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- But each kyōiku kanji (Q17025353), jōyō kanji (Q875368) and jinmeiyō kanji (Q1439720) was established for its own (different) purpose, so is it really appropriate to make a property that allows these values only? My idea is to make this property more general, and can store multiple "kanji level" values, including studying level, daily use level, and JIS level. This might also contain some historical classification of kanji level like Tōyō kanji (Q1144657). What do you think? --何三（S） (talk) 15:19, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Comment I'm just wondering that if this property also apply to the Chinese characters in Table of General Standard Chinese Characters (Q14941454), list of Frequently Used Characters in Modern Chinese (Q8191334), Chart of Standard Forms of Common National Characters (Q6498184), List of Graphemes of Commonly-used Chinese Characters (Q6152418), etc.? --Stevenliuyi (talk) 22:27, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Stevenliuyi: I'm not familiar with those standard lists, but in order to describe whether a Chinese character is in the standard list, we can simply use catalog (P972). The data I'm planning to store in this property is mainly in what grade the kanji is taught in schools in Japan, and these data will be able to be used such as in wikt:en:Template:ja-kanji. By the way, Table of General Standard Chinese Characters (Q14941454) consists of "一级字表", "二级字表" and "三级字表", and if these levels are notable, I think we can create different property in a similar way to this property. Generalizing property is useful unless the property is used in a different meaning on one item. In this case, if we generalize this property, it will be complicated to understand the meaning of the value, and it will be more difficult to write a query to get the specific data. --Okkn (talk) 00:54, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
- Support Yes, it makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.--Stevenliuyi (talk) 19:59, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Stevenliuyi: I'm not familiar with those standard lists, but in order to describe whether a Chinese character is in the standard list, we can simply use catalog (P972). The data I'm planning to store in this property is mainly in what grade the kanji is taught in schools in Japan, and these data will be able to be used such as in wikt:en:Template:ja-kanji. By the way, Table of General Standard Chinese Characters (Q14941454) consists of "一级字表", "二级字表" and "三级字表", and if these levels are notable, I think we can create different property in a similar way to this property. Generalizing property is useful unless the property is used in a different meaning on one item. In this case, if we generalize this property, it will be complicated to understand the meaning of the value, and it will be more difficult to write a query to get the specific data. --Okkn (talk) 00:54, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
@Okkn, 何三（S）, Was a bee, ArthurPSmith, Stevenliuyi, NMaia: 
Done: grade of kanji (P5277). − Pintoch (talk) 08:27, 9 June 2018 (UTC)