Property talk:P4944
Latest comment: 3 years ago by Jura1 in topic Instability of the IDs
Documentation
Premiers préfets ID
identifier of a prefect on the online version of Les Préfets du 11 ventôse an VIII au 4 septembre 1870
identifier of a prefect on the online version of Les Préfets du 11 ventôse an VIII au 4 septembre 1870
[create Create a translatable help page (preferably in English) for this property to be included here]
Item “instance of (P31): human (Q5)”: Items with this property should also have “instance of (P31): human (Q5)”. (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303). List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P4944#Item P31, search, SPARQL
Single value: this property generally contains a single value. (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303). List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P4944#Single value, SPARQL
Distinct values: this property likely contains a value that is different from all other items. (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303). List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P4944#Unique value, SPARQL (every item), SPARQL (by value)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P4944#Item P39, search, SPARQL
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P4944#Item P39, search, SPARQL
Allowed entity types are Wikibase item (Q29934200): the property may only be used on a certain entity type (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303). List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P4944#Entity types
Scope is as main value (Q54828448), as reference (Q54828450): the property must be used by specified way only (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303). List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P4944#Scope, SPARQL
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P4944#Format, SPARQL
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P4944#Format, SPARQL
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Instability of the IDs
edit
Notified participants of WikiProject France Hi all! This discussion started here when I noticed that a conspicuous number of items (see the page-histories of Augustin Claude Le Provost de Launay (Q75971375), Henry Bernard Albin Le Rat de Magnitot (Q75971393) and Émile Ollivier (Q286293) as examples) had wrong values of P4944 and that these values, through the edits of Reinheitsgebot (which acts on the basis of Mix'n'match), had been widely spread in the references to the values of date of birth (P569) and date of death (P570). I thought that there was an error in the Mix'n'match catalog, which caused wrong matches between the IDs and the items. However, as @Nono314: has precisely noticed, the problems seems not related to the Mix'n'match catalog, but far more concerning:
After checking, it looks like the issue is not with the MnM catalog, but with the site itself...They have removed 2 entries from the index of that series, and all following entries have just been shifted up (!) taking the previous entries' id. You can see that the last 3 examples for the property are also no wrong (the 5th example id now points to the entry for the 3rd)
So it's not items having misplaced ids, it's just the so called "ids" not being (permanent) ids at all... And recreating a catalog would probably only fix things in the very short term, until the next shift.
Among related identifiers, Personnel de l'administration préfectorale ID (P6973) suffers from the same issue with shifted "ids". Bargeton ID (P4906), seems to be plagued as well, but in a different manner: of all example ids, none is still pointing to the original entry! However, they're not pointing to other entries, but either redirect to the index page or display a "not found" page.
Unsure what to do with such totally unreliable identifiers...
So, the problem of the instability of the IDs regards three properties, all based on different parts of the website https://francearchives.fr:
- Premiers préfets ID (P4944) (+ Mix'n'match catalog 3024, which I have disconnected from the property in order to avoid new wrong ID additions; if no one has objections, I would totally delete it, because as of now it is still possible to create new items on its basis)
- Bargeton ID (P4906)
- Personnel de l'administration préfectorale ID (P6973)
The problem reflects on the properties in two aspects, their use as main values and as references. With regard to references, since nearly all of them didn't have retrieved (P813), I have already removed them manually. Now, what to do with the ID as main values? Deletion of the properties, deprecation, any tentative to convince the website to adopt permanent IDs, other solutions? Thank you all in advance, --Epìdosis 16:31, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Epìdosis: thanks a lot for raising that problem. We may try to contact them first (ping @Bzg: would you have any direct contact with them?) but if there is not improvments, deletion is sadly probably the best course of action :/ Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 17:12, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Epìdosis, VIGNERON: maybe the facomponent id (b7df7db7028754032b93514e93336863814baa7c) is not permanent, but it seems that they have another id, with agent in the url: https://francearchives.fr/fr/agent/19462983.
- Apparently it works for P4944 and P6973, but not for P4906 — eru [Talk] [french wiki] 18:31, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Eru: Very good, I think I've found it also for Bargeton ID (P4906): e.g. https://francearchives.fr/fr/facomponent/8393c7bb7d8d25a9f516ca6726db5eac705bfee5 = https://francearchives.fr/fr/agent/18470163 and https://francearchives.fr/fr/facomponent/f8b943ae3e4bd8deee540f95b163ad9b0555b57e = https://francearchives.fr/fr/agent/19165924. The formatter URL https://francearchives.fr/fr/agent/$1 works for all the three IDs; hopefully it is stable. --Epìdosis 20:23, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
Thank you Epìdosis. I'll try to contact the website team. Wait and see... Nomen ad hoc (talk) 20:24, 25 January 2021 (UTC).
- I didn't find for P4906 at the beginning because the examples are messy, Georges Abadie 20abd2454056fbb7c093f80ff7ebb1443dce74f6 is now "A"...— eru [Talk] [french wiki] 20:32, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
- Edit: I've emailed Archives nationales DJI, raising their attention on this concern. Nomen ad hoc (talk) 20:35, 25 January 2021 (UTC).
- Notified participants of WikiProject France
- Bonjour.
- J'ai obtenu des éléments de réponse sur ce problème (in French, but I'll try to sum up this in english a bit later).
- Suite à des évolutions techniques et mises à jour de contenu de France Archives fin 2020, les identifiants uniques existants ont été en partie modifiés, cassés voire réutilisés pour d'autres notices descriptives de niveau bas (concerne surtout pour P4906 - Bargeton Préfets 1870-1982 et P4944 - Préfets 1800-1880).
- Pour rappel, FranceArchives est un portail qui agrège les données fournies par les services d'archives sur tout le territoire français.
- Le contenu initial concernant les données du personnel préfectoral (P4906, P4944 et P6973) est édité, mis en ligne et maintenu par les Archives nationales (France), et ponctuellement mis à jour sur FranceArchives. Le contenu original est accessible avec des liens pérennes (url construite avec un identifiant unique pour l'inventaire et un identifiant unique alphanumérique pour les niveaux inférieurs des notices ; exemple : https://www.siv.archives-nationales.culture.gouv.fr/siv/UD/FRAN_IR_001514/d_1). Cette URL est pas mal utilisée en "URL de la référence" pour des déclarations sur ces éléments du personnel préfectoral. Elle pourrait être utilisée pour les en tant qu'identifiant, si l'on considère que des identifiants vers ces Dictionnaire des préfets / administration préfectorale sont pertinents (ce que je pense personnellement pour ces trois volumes qui ont été édités et sont désormais dématérialisés, enrichis des liens vers les éléments Wikidata et à partir duquel je vais reprendre l'enrichissement de Wikidata via OpenRefine).
- Du côté de FranceArchives, ils recommandent, pour des liens entre Wikidata et FranceArchives, de le faire sur la base des référentiels, et notamment les entités Agent (avec URI, exemple : https://francearchives.fr/fr/agent/19614281). Les inventaires eux-mêmes ont également des URI, mais les identifiants inférieurs sont susceptibles de changer si, lors d'une mise à jour de contenu, l'ordre des notices a été modifié.
- En ce sens, il serait sans doute pertinent de proposer un identifiant FranceArchives Agent (comme Autorités BNF ou Notices d'autorité Archives nationales). FranceArchives m'a communiqué un extrait du jeu de données liant FranceArchives Agent et Wikidata (sur la base des éléments Wikidata concernant le personnel préfectoral) qu'il serait tout à fait possible d'injecter en masse dans Wikidata.
- Archives nationales DJI (talk) 12:53, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
- [short translation]
- FranceArchives web portal (which is aggregating archival content and which is maintained by French ministry of Culture) has changed his technical structure at the end of 2020. This has affected automatic identifiers for deep contents (not the permalink of inventories). The new version of FranceArchives has now Agent identifiers, with permalink. There is now a wikidata idenfifier for it (P9371) and I will update massive data provided by FranceArchives to inject FranceArchives identifier into Wikidata.
- French officials properties (P4906, P4944 and P6973) are based on content provided by National archives of France and published on FranceArchives. The website of Archives nationales has permalink and unique identifiers for those properties. The inventories are linked to Wikidata and I'm updating Wikidata with content from thee inventories. So I'm proposing to change url and ID for all these elements, and rewrite the formatter URL and source website for the property, to keep the useful identifiers and have permalinks.
- Archives nationales DJI (talk) 06:18, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Archives nationales DJI: plutôt que de rajouter les autre identifiants avec cette propriété, mieux vaut créer une nouvelle et utiliser celle-ci. @Epìdosis, Nomen ad hoc, Nono314: --- Jura 08:33, 28 May 2021 (UTC)