Wikipedia talk:Please do not bite the newcomers

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Unprofessional and unencylopedic

Why is a joke about a tiger biting a soccer ball in this article? This just seems very idiotic and pointless.--CheeseInTea (talk) 14:23, 18 May 2022 (UTC)CheeseInTea[reply]

I've noticed that pages about Wikipeida and its functioning usually allow more informality and occasional humor. There's probably better out there than this tiger, but the replacement might also be something with at least some levity to it. B k (talk) 23:28, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't. In fact, it seems funny to me, because this page is indeed supposed to be humorous. Berpihakdibalutkenetralan (talk) 12:20, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But there is actually a hierarchy among non-admin Wikipedia editors

Some existing non-admin users treat new or IP users as "inferior" to them. 42.116.53.21 (talk) 04:32, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) § Rewriting WP:BITE

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) § Rewriting WP:BITE. Ca ^{talk to me!} 14:46, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Is this rewrite ready to replace the current page?

DEAD

There is no clear consensus. I will be editing the rewrite according to feedback. Thanks to everyone for the advice. Ca ^{talk to me!} 12:41, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Background: This page was created in 2003, and the guideline header was added in 2005.

The proposed rewrite can be found here: Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers/rewrite. Please refrain from making significant changes to the rewrite while the RfC is ongoing.

Do not accept the rewrite as guideline; this page does not need to be rewritten.
Do not accept the rewrite as guideline; the rewrite needs more work to replace the current text.
Accept the rewrite as guideline, but add the template {{under discussion}}
Accept the rewrite as guideline, and do not add the template {{under discussion}}

Ca ^{talk to me!} 11:31, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging idea lab participants @Chaotic Enby @Folly Mox @Aaron Liu Ca ^{talk to me!} 11:33, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3, definitely an improvement on the current guideline! And we can move to option 4 once the VP discussion concludes. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 12:38, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 2 The source for newcomers are responsible for adding the majority of lasting content is from 2006 and is 18 years old now. Additionally, that study only looked at content in two articles. Please find a more current and comprehensive study to support this point, or remove this point from the page. RudolfRed (talk) 19:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you think this issue is too severe for the rewrite to become a guideline, or do you think there are other problem points? I don't disagree with you: I'd imagine this detail could be removed with discussion after it's been made into a guideline. Ca ^{talk to me!} 10:14, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It should be fixed first, since it is a key part of the lede. RudolfRed (talk) 18:48, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's fair. Ca ^{talk to me!} 05:37, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All of these points are mentioned in the footnote already. I don’t see the problem with having an outdated study, especially since editor activity has only declined since 2006. We could stress that it’s not the best. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:56, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 2; I agree with RudolfRed that the study is far from ideal and should be removed before any other substantial changes are made. ― novov (t c) 08:42, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3 I think the old lead is much more concise than the new one, but I think the rest of the rewrite looks good. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:11, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Other way around. The guideline's lead is 152 words; the proposal's is only 114. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 10:47, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 2. Too much material has been lost. While the extant guideline page has blathery cruft in it, this calls for a point-by-point concision edit, not loss of a whole bunch of entire points/principles. If one of those should be excised entirely, each such change would be a major guideline change that should be subject to pro/con discussion about that change. PS: RudolfRed's skepticism about a statistically invalid pseudo-study from ages ago is sensible, but it's already part of the extant guideline, so whether to remove it or not really has nothing to do with the current proposal. That is, if the proposed version is poorer in comparison to the "live" version (and I think it is in some ways) it will not be because part of it in the long-accepted live version wasn't changed/removed. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 10:44, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3 - it looks largely good to me - I've added a minor suggested change on /rewrite's talkpage, but overall it is a lot more condensed and focused than the previous guideline, and has less of a Us Vs Them feel to it. BugGhost 🦗👻 15:57, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3: Looks like an improvement. I have no issues with it. The current page always seemed more like an essay to me because of the excessively long lists and relatively poor formatting. C F A 💬 17:36, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 1/2. Agree with SMcCandlish. I respect the effort but the result fails to match the purpose of the document. The page is a plea to biting experienced editors to stop biting. It is supposed to be a reading material that uses a particular narrative structure, covering certain scenarios, gradually leading you to reflect on your actions and understand that your approach has been harming the project. It isn't supposed to be a set of rules. It must have some emotive and seemingly repetitive verbiage to act as effective persuasive writing. There's no hard-and-fast no-bite formula that can be summed up in a handful of bullets. The guideline isn't about that. It must instill the feeling that being unkind and impatient to new editors is deeply wrong. The biter must feel that it's wrong. The rewrite doesn't do it. The current and recent versions do. It could be "rewritten", but it should happen incrementally.—Alalch E. 13:55, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would endorse Alalch E.'s statement. It well-addresses some things I was thinking but didn't quite have good wording for (so I just stuck to rather procedural considerations in my own comment). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:22, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is definitely a valid vision for the guideline. However, I believe this version fails spectacularly to be persuasive. As I read the guideline I did not come to any new realizations—it just felt haphazardly written. Either way, this guideline needs a rewrite. Since the principle seems pretty obvious (be nice to newcomers), I opted for an informative than a persuasive writing approach, but feel free to propose a rewrite with your vision. Ca ^{talk to me!} 05:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC: Rewriting specific sections

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An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following list:

Wikipedia policies and guidelines

When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

There are several questions, as follows:

Should the lead of the current guideline be replaced with lead of the rewrite?
Should the "Common newcomer scenarios" section and the "How to avoid being a "biter" section of the current guideline be replaced with "How to avoid biting" section of the rewrite?
Should the "Ignorantia juris may excuse" section of the current guideline be replaced with the "It is okay not to be aware of guidelines" section of the rewrite?
Should the "What to do if you feel you have "bitten" or "have been bitten" section of the current guideline be replaced with the "I have bitten someone—what do I do?" section of the rewrite?

The proposed rewrite can be found here: Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers/rewrite. Please refrain from making significant changes to the rewrite while the RfC is ongoing. Also see the idea lab discussion: Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) § Rewriting WP:BITE. After the last RfC, User:Alalch E. has done work on cleaning up the "Understanding newcomers" section. Ca ^{talk to me!} 14:28, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please answer with Yes or No in below each section.
Pinging previous participants: @Chaotic Enby @RudolfRed @Novov @Voorts @Aaron Liu @SmcCandlish @Bugghost @CFA @Alalch E.

Ca ^{talk to me!} 14:28, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should the lead of the current guideline be replaced with lead of the rewrite?

Oppose. The phrasing Not having a clue is a normal stage in the editor lifecycle. We want editors to survive this process is the core reason that we have this guideline, and it so well encapsulates this into a short phrase. But the rewrite of the lead totally removes this, which is tragic, and alone is reason enough to oppose replacing the current lead. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 19:33, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No - As per RTH, and it isn't clear why this rewrite is an improvement. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:01, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should the "Common newcomer scenarios" section and the "How to avoid being a "biter" section of the current guideline be replaced with "How to avoid biting" section of the rewrite?

Try linking to each of the options you would like us to consider, so we know exactly what we are being asked to consider. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 18:25, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should the "Ignorantia juris may excuse" section of the current guideline be replaced with the "It is okay not to be aware of guidelines" section of the rewrite?

Yes, much clearer and simpler. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 16:33, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's the English Wikipedia. —Anne Delong (talk) 18:29, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes: Good heavens, of course. This isn't the legal field, and attempting to impress people with our erudition. Ravenswing 18:53, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes - Much clearer. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:01, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should the "What to do if you feel you have "bitten" or "have been bitten" section of the current guideline be replaced with the "I have bitten someone—what do I do?" section of the rewrite?

Discussion

Why is this structured section by section instead of an up or down !vote? voorts (talk/contributions) 15:44, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I figured(and multiple people recommended to me) it would be more likely to gain consensus if I was going step-by-step instead of attempting to replace the entire guideline. Ca ^{talk to me!} 22:54, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you make it easier to compare the options, you are more likely to get useful feedback. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 18:09, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, I don't really care for the way this is structured. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 21:11, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea; I will work on this this afternoon. Ca ^{talk to me!} 22:55, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question by question (or subheader by subheader):

No link needed; it's the lede
Replace WP:Bite#Common newcomer scenarios and Wikipedia:Bite#How to avoid being a "biter"——with Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers/rewrite#How to avoid biting
Replace Wikipedia:Bite#Ignorantia juris may excuse——with Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers/rewrite#It is okay not to be aware of guidelines
Replace Wikipedia:Bite#What to do if you feel you have "bitten" or have been bitten——with Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers/rewrite#I have bitten someone—what do I do?

Aaron Liu (talk) 03:36, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]