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The review department of the Chicago WikiProject is the project's main forum for conducting detailed reviews—both formal and informal—of particular articles and other content within its scope.

This department provides a convenient collection of Chicago content currently undergoing featured content reviews outside the project:

Several other discussion types use transclusion friendly discussion. Below you will also find external discussion for

External peer review

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WikiProject peer reviews
A Wikipedia Peer Review can be a useful way to improve articles associated with this WikiProject.

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Joseph Berrios

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Benet Academy

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Previous peer review
Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch peer review

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I would like to eventually nominate it for FA. This article has already had a peer review and recently passed GA. I would appreciate suggestions on how to make it more comprehensive and how to improve the prose.

Thanks, Benny the mascot (talk) 19:42, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry this is taking me so long - will review in the next 24 hours. Sorry, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:02, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No need to rush...I have other ways of keeping myself busy. :) Good luck on your FAC, by the way. Benny the mascot (talk) 03:15, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ruhrfisch comments: Thanks for being so understanding - this looks pretty good to me, so here are some mostly nit-picky suggestions for improvement.

  • One thing that is sometimes hard to do is to provide context to the reader about things the author is familiar with. I am fairly familiar with the Chicago area, but was not that sure where Lisle was. A brief description would help (x miles west of the Loop / downtown Chicago) or a map with a dot would help too.
  • I also was confused by mentions of the college, but no real resolution on what happened to it - it took me a little searching here, but I assume it is what is now known as Benedictine University in Lisle. The article mentions the university as the site of buildings The St. Procopius monks decided on March 12, 1900, to build a new college[20] on the site of present-day Benedictine University at the southwest corner of Maple and College Avenues.[12], and in terms of a scholarship at the academy, but I think it needs to explicitly say what happened to the college after the academy split. I realize that this article on the Academy, so it need not be a lot of detail, but some is needed.
  • The map is nice, but I am guessing the Census does not show buildings (only streets and water), so the source for those needs to be given explicitly - this will be checked at FAC.
  • The capitalization of College and Academy by themselves seems a bit odd, though it is done consistently as far as I can tell. The Wikipedia:MOS#Institutions says if it is the generic word (college, academy) by itself it should not be capitalized.
  • The lead just seems sparse to me - especially the second and third paragraphs. My rule of thumb is to make sure every header is in the lead somehow - are Demographics and the Christmas Drive there?
    • I mentioned the Christmas Drive a little bit, but the Demographics section is already somewhat covered in the lead. ("Benet's average ACT test score has exceeded statewide and national averages, and more than 99 percent of students have gone on to college after graduation")
  • The language is decent but I noticed a few rough spots reading - I will try and come back and point some more out soon, here is one to start
    • Classes began on March 2, when Rev. Procopius Neuzil taught two remedial high school students in two small rooms at 704 Allport Street for four months. FOur months in one day? Wow that's concentrated teaching! Perhaps Classes began on March 2, and for the next four months Rev. Procopius Neuzil taught two remedial high school students in two small rooms at 704 Allport Street. would be better. I am also not sure students can be remedial - I thought classes were? Could be wrong

Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article). I do not watch peer reviews, so if you have questions or comments, please contact me on my talk page. Yours, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:46, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your feedback! Benny the mascot (talk) 01:42, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
More from Ruhrfisch

I will try to point out language that needs work here, as well as any other issues that I notice

  • Lead It was founded in 1887 as the all-boys St. Procopius College and Academy by Benedictine monks in Chicago, who also operated the St. Joseph Bohemian Orphanage, which along with St. Procopius later moved to Lisle, approximately 25 miles (40 km) west of Chicago.[6] Could this sentence be split into two? As it is now it is quite long and complex - I would start the new sentence after the word orphanage. Also could the year(s) for the move(s) to Lisle be added to provide context?
  • Capitalization of college? The orphanage closed in 1956 to make room for St. Procopius Academy, which then separated from the College in 1957. (In Internet Explorer you can search for a word and it highlights all the matching terms in yellow - might be worth checking caps on college and academy this way)
  • Tweak sentence Sacred Heart merged with St. Procopius Academy in 1967 on the St. Procopius campus to establish Benet Academy [on the St. Procopius campus].
  • Also, any idea where the name "Benet" came from? a ha - here it says Benet is an English form of Benedict
  • Unclear Benet's performing arts program stages multiple musicals ... I think it would be clearer to say Benet's performing arts program stages a musical annually... perhaps saying since when
  • Need to be consistent on names - in the text it is "Reverend John Nepomucene Jaeger of the Order of St. Benedict..." but the image caption is just "Abbot Nepomucene Jaeger" (no John). I also wonder since St John of Nepomuk is not well known in the US, if a link would be in order?
  • Suggested reoganization Reverend John Nepomucene Jaeger of the Order of St. Benedict was the pastor of the parish[.] , which served approximately 16,000 to 20,000 parishioners. Chicago at that time had the largest Czech population of any other city in the world outside of Prague and Vienna. Roughly 50,000 Czech immigrants were served by the three Czech parishes of Chicago, which included [16,000 to 20,000 parishioners at] St. Procopius.
  • The source says they were teaching high school classes then, so I would clarify that in Only a two-year [high school] program was offered at the time; the college offered its first four-year high school program in 1904.[9]
  • Might flow more smoothly as The first Bohemian abbot in the United States, Abbot Jaeger[, the first Bohemian abbot in the United States,] founded a Bohemian monastic community in 1894...
  • What does better atmosphere mean? The college and academy continued to grow in Chicago; in 1896 the Abbey bought the 104-acre (42 ha) Morris Neff farm in Lisle to gain more space and a better atmosphere.[9] Cleaner air than in the city?
  • Since I am assuming that the present Benedictine University still is on the site because they are the re-named St Procopius College, I think that needs to be made clearer in this: The St. Procopius monks decided on March 12, 1900, to build a new college[21] on the site of present-day Benedictine University at the southwest corner of Maple and College Avenues.[13]
  • OK I am stopping the rough spots here. I think this would benefit from a copy edit before FAC. There are a few other things I noticed:
  • What makes Remembering Lisle a reliable source? See WP:RS
  • The alt text for the mascot should desribe it as a bird, not a redwing (there might be those who think of the Detroit Redwings or even Red Wing Shoes

Hope this helps, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 00:42, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your advice! I've fixed most of the issues you've brought up; I just need to get that copyedit completed. Benny the mascot (talk) 19:59, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Featured article candidates

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Instructions

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 00:26, 9 April 2010 [1].

Michelle Obama

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Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because it was previously nominated two and a half months after she assumed the role of First Lady of the United States. There were issues with recentism and what her long term role is. Now that she has established her legacy objective and undertaken a role in running an administrationwide initiative, I think it is time to reconsider whether this article is among the finest at summarizing the bio of this living person.TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. Ucucha 00:47, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The eligibility of this article is not clear for the cup. If it passes, we will request clarification.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:12, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments: The books under "Further reading" are not formatted properly; an author's surname is always first, and I'm not aware of any standard style (MLA, APA, Chicago, etc.) that lists the month of publication as well as the year -- correct me if I'm wrong on the last point, however. Publication cities are also missing in all three instances. In addition, is there a reason why the books listed are not used as references for the article? From what I can tell after a quick skimming, most of the references are news reports and articles, which is great if that's all there is, but my belief is that if there are reputable, published works available, why not use them? María (habla conmigo) 12:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I can reformat the citations. However, if you are telling me that I have to read a couple of novels to advance this FAC, it is not going to happen. On many subjects there are far more references than are used in creating the article. Does this article appear to be lacking breadth, depth or WP:RS for the material that exists?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm not telling you to do anything, Tony. But now that you mention it, what's so wrong about reading books for the sake of a gold star? ;) The question is, does this article -- which relies solely on online news sources when there are seemingly reliable, published works available -- truly present a "representative survey of the relevant literature on the topic"? I obviously haven't read the books, or even the article in its entirety, but past FACs have been hit with such queries in the past. Because this is such an important article, and one that will continue to be scrutinized by many readers, the references should obviously be of the highest quality currently available. If the books in question are not worth the paper they're printed on, okay; but they should at least be assessed to find whether or not they can be of use. María (habla conmigo) 14:36, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I have several times done research such as that to get a gold star. My WP is much less than it use to be. In most cases, for architecture articles I have read books that had 4 or 5 pages on a building or structure that I was researching. I was able to add a few books in a few hours. In this case, we are talking about entire books devoted to the subject. Compared to some of my recent FAs such as Jay Pritzker Pavilion, Cloud Gate, Crown Fountain, or Trump International Hotel and Tower (Chicago) where I was able to improve the perceived quality of the WP article by looking at a few passages in architecture books, this would take an industrious effort that I am not up to. I could not imagine it would take me less than 50 hours to read the references that you mention. I do not have that much time for WP anymore.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:51, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: Has a delegate approved this nom, bearing in mind the 15-day rule and that this nominator's 2008–09 Michigan Wolverines men's basketball team was archived only on 6 April? Brianboulton (talk) 21:18, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I confess to not really reading the constantly revised rules with each nomination. If this nomination is suppose to be closed that is fine.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:36, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • With no opinion on the merits of the article (which I haven't read in any detail), I'd say this is a clear candidate for WP:IAR. That rule is intended to prevent FAC from being clogged by mass nominations of poor quality articles into FAC by people who don't really understand what's required; Tony clearly doesn't fall into that category. – iridescent 00:17, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Actually, that rule was put into place to stop editors from using FAC as a source of serial peer reviews, putting up a second nomination as soon as their previous nom was archived, clogging FAC and treating it as peer review, and regularly bringing back articles with little change as soon as the last nomination was archived. In fact, yes, this review needs to be closed, as the rule was put into place precisely for this purpose. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:23, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

Featured article review

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Illinois

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Rob Zerban

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Rob Zerban (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Delete or Redirect. The first is that he was a member of the Kenosha County Board of Commissioners. Local politicians are not automatically notable, nor are they not automatically not notable. Reasons a local politician could be notable are longevity in service (Robert L. Butler, Margaret Doud, or Hilmar Moore) or notable activity in office (Betty Loren-Maltese or Rita Crundwell), the latter of which is probably more a WP:CRIME who was also a politician. The second is his candidacies for Congress. I simply do not see the "historic significance" test being passed here given the last election was over ten years ago at this point. A clear failure of WP:POLITICIAN. Similar AfDs resulted in a delete/redirect in Andy Anderson, Bill Proctor, Veron Parker, and Steve Sarvi. Mpen320 (talk) 21:29, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2024 Northern Illinois vs. Notre Dame football game

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2024 Northern Illinois vs. Notre Dame football game (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

No true sustained coverage. Upsets are common in College Football, though this was a significant one at the time. Esolo5002 (talk) 00:10, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete: I agree with the above replies, while this was significant, we are not going to make a page for every upset. When Marshall beat Notre Dame two years ago, that was arguably as significant as this, and there is no page for that game.
Red0ctober22 (talk) 23:48, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2024 Chicago Bears–Detroit Lions Thanksgiving game

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2024 Chicago Bears–Detroit Lions Thanksgiving game (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

I'm a die hard Lions fan and that's a big part of my editing, but this game isn't particular special or deserving of a standalone article. The only "remarkable" part about it was a mishap regarding taking a timeout at the end, which is a mishap that happens several times a season. Does not warrant a standalone article and should be deleted.

I obviously understand there was bad clock management, there's no doubt about that, but this is barely more than what routinely happens every single season several times. Games are always cost this way, by miscommunications. There's always going to be sensationalized reporting that happens immediately after a game, that's frankly expected. Hey man im josh (talk) 21:17, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Not a notable enough game. Definite recency bias in this articles creation. This is not one of those games that will be mentioned as an all-timer. The Hail Mary game versus the Commanders, sure, but not this. Maybe it deserves a special mention in the Bears' and Lions' season pages, but nothing more than that. Eg224 (talk) 00:07, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would rather keep this page. 2601:40A:8400:1820:5D10:B5A6:B02:CF3D (talk) 02:08, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • leading to the firing of a Bears coach midseason for the first time – It's certainly not the only reason for the firing, but it is an obvious contributing factor. Let's not act like this was the only reason it was.
  • Getting the Lions to their best start in franchise history – This took a number of games to accomplish, this game is not special in that regard, and, simply based on team strengths of schedules and records, this game was not expected to go any other way than a Lions win by most pundits.
  • ...as well as one of the most baffling endings to a game ever... — That's certainly subjective. I'd counter by saying it's not even top 10 for the wild and wacky things that have happened to the Lions.
  • I don't think that recency is the only reason why this was created. – The game will only ever really be mentioned in the context of Matt Eberflus, it'd be fairly unexpected to have long term coverage.
To be honest, the rational provided feels more like WP:ILIKEIT than anything. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:14, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: While clock management situations, and disastrous ones at that, are common place in the NFL, theres none quite like this one. 26 seconds to get a play off or call a timeout and they do neither until theres 5 seconds left, in which that is the final play of the game. Add on to that the first mid-season head coach firing in the 105 year history of the Bears and the best start in the Detroit Lions 95 year history makes for a pretty historic game. The Butt Fumble was notoriously memed and ridiculed into oblivion so much that the Wikipedia page for said play still exists, so if you take down this game, the butt fumble would deserve to be taken off this site as well. Not to mention the fact that Chicago also faced off in 2 brutal games against divison rivals Green Bay and Minnesota previous to this game, so the Bears were already known for stuff like this, but this was just absolutely mind boggling and set a precedent on how low it could go. The game was also broadcast on CBS to a nationally televised audience, with all time quotes from Nantz and Romo. With all that being said, theres no way that this play would soon be forgot like other mismanaged clock situations and i believe that this page should be kept IBeFlyin (talk) 09:11, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was deemed a miscommunication by both the QB and the coach for what it's worth, and those are fairly common, especially by inexperienced coaches and rookie quarterbacks. I don't think the standing of Detroit as a team is particularly relevant, or who Chicago played directly before the game. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:24, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If this game gets memed and ridiculed over time the way the butt fumble has, then there would be a good case for creating a page about this game at that time. But for now that is WP:CRYSTAL. Rlendog (talk) 15:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or redirect to Bears–Lions rivalry, where a special mention as a notable game can be included. As the nomination noted, there is nothing especially unique about this game. 2024 Chicago Bears season is a much better place to discuss the impact of various games over the season, while Bears–Lions rivalry is a good place to speak directly to this game and what happened. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS arguments related to the Butt Fumble don't hold water, for obvious reasons, but also because, as the nominator noted, poor clock management and miscommunication happens all the time in the NFL. The Butt Fumble was a singularly unique play with few, if any, appropriate comparisons. Although WP:RECENT makes this difficult to judge right now, it is important to put this game in the context of what is being claimed that makes it notable. Eberflus was historically a bad coach who was likely getting fired at the end of the season either way. Although bad, this game was the straw that broke the camel's back, not the only reason for his firing. The fact that the Bears haven't fired a coach mid-season is more of a flukely TV factoid that doesn't really mean much is the grand scheme of things. And lastly, in the grand scheme of crazy endings, this was definitely absurd clock management, but otherwise was a fairly routine end to the game. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:14, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep It’s both a historic game for the Lions (being their first Thanksgiving win in 7 years), but also a historic game for the Bears as well (for obvious reasons) and given how coaching mishaps of this magnitude are so rare, along with how widely talked about this game (and the near-unanimous calls for the firing of Eberflus after said game) about the game is, I don’t see how you can delete it at this point, though I do understand the arguments for deletion. :KDoppenheimer (talk) 01:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This was a historic game for both teams. For the Lions, this gave them their best ever start to a season, not to mention their first Thanksgiving win in 7 years. As for the Bears, this caused Matt Eberflus to become the first Head Coach in Bears History to be fired mid season. I see no reason we should delete this. Carson004 (talk) 01:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not to mention I do not see anywhere in that article that would meet deletion criteria for any WP essays, like WP:G12 for example. This never broke any copyright rules Carson004 (talk) 02:04, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It took more than this game for the Lions to have a "historic" start and it took more than one game to get Eberflus fired. Your argument doesn't really hold water. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Technically it is still historic, so YOUR argument cannot hold air Carson004 (talk) 23:04, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: I agree that if this WERE to become noteworthy and talked about like the Buttfumble in the future, then this article can be recreated and should stand. As it stands, however, this definitely feels completely reactionary. Definitely can be mentioned on the Eberflus page, but that's as far as it goes imo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.189.135.55 (talk) 03:04, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I want this page to stay since this game was historic. 2601:40A:8400:1820:5D10:B5A6:B02:CF3D (talk) 11:06, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Maybe over time this game will get memed like the butt fumble due to the clock management at the end of the game, at which point an article about the game would be appropriate (and at such a time the game may have accumulated a more useful nickname than the title being used here). But until then there is nothing special about it. The notion that the game is historic because its Detroit's first Thanksgiving win in 7 years is not a remotely appropriate standard. And the fact that the win gave Detroit its best start ever is not a reason for keeping either. Lots of games have given a team their best start in franchise history, and we don't have articles on them and there would be no reason to. I went to Miami for an example since that one is probably the easiest, given that they had a perfect season in their 7th year as a franchise. In 1966 they won for the first time in their 6th game, so that made for their best start ever. As the franchise's first win, that may well be notable, separate from their best start. They then won 2 more games that season so each of those wins marked the Dolphins' best start too. Then in 1967, they won their opening game, so obviously that represented their best start. Wins in weeks 9 and 10 also gave them their best start ever, so in 1967 the Dolphins had 3 wins that represented their best start ever. Then in 1968, in week 5 they earned a tie putting them at 1-5-1, which was their best start ever. Their remaining 4 wins that season also produced their best start ever, so in 1968 the Dolphins played 5 games that produced their best start ever. In 1969 they never had their best start ever. But that changed in 1970. Their win in week 3 put them at 2-1 for the season, their best start ever, and each of their remaining 8 wins for that season represented their best start ever. So they had 9 games in 1970 that represented their best start ever. In 1971 their win in week 2 put them at 1-0-1, their best start ever, and 7 of their remaining wins represented their best start ever, so they had 8 games that produced their best start ever. Then we get to 1972. They of course started 2-0, which was then their best start ever and each of their remaining 12 wins also represented their best start ever. So 13 games in 1972 produced their best start ever (now some of those games that represented the best start ever for any NFL team and especially the final game that clinched a perfect regular season may well have a claim to notability). So after their initial season, the Dolphins had 38 games where a win or tie produced their best start ever, and no one cares about or remembers most of them. And that's pretty easy one to go through since they won't have another best start ever until they start 15-0. Other teams probably have more than 38 games representing their best start ever, but even at 38, we hardly need articles about games that almost no one cares about or remembers just because they happen to represent a teams best start ever. Rlendog (talk) 16:08, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:WALLOFTEXT 38.122.245.52 (talk) 20:34, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    More like a well thought out and explained vote that addresses the silly and non-policy based WP:ILIKEIT keep votes. Hey man im josh (talk) 02:18, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Perhaps a bit of a weak one. But there is evidence of WP:IMPACT, whether or not Eberflus was an awful coach, a 105-year first and historic season for the Lions is something. Plus sometimes the wider impact is not felt until end-of-season recaps (yes, yes, WP:CRYSTAL and all), but this is just borderline enough in terms of wider significance for me. See the AFD for Hail Murray for a similar article that editors were in a rush to delete and wound up being kept. This was nominated a day or two after its creation, seems like a bit of a rush to me. Etzedek24 (I'll talk at ya) (Check my track record) 19:13, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Etzedek24: Why are you putting so much weight regarding a "historic season for the Lions" on just this one game? There were 10 other wins besides this one. If anything that sounds like information that doesn't belong in its own article. If the Lions win again next week, does that mean that should also be its own article? Hey man im josh (talk) 02:17, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    All things considered together satisfy WP:IMPACT for me. I don't particularly think one is more important than the other, it's the confluence of them that takes this over the threshold for me. I even did say that I think it is a weaker keep. No need to be hyperbolic. Etzedek24 (I'll talk at ya) (Check my track record) 04:35, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not trying to be hyperbolic @Etzedek24, I'm focused on the fact that a number of people have mentioned the Lions' season as a reason for keeping, when from my perspective, it's entirely irrelevant. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The game was impactful, but only really to the franchises themselves, not to the broader culture of the NFL, as all of the other games with dedicated pages are. Nothing particularly distinctive happened this game, it was memorable but poor clock management resulting in you getting less plays off than intended isn't exactly unique. Dak in the 2022 NFC Wildcard stands out in my memory; that game doesn't have it's own page, it is just described on the season pages and 2022 playoffs page. I feel like the Hail Murray is a particularly misguided equivalency because the play itself was notably distinctive; it was a highlight and a signature play with a unique name. It fits in with the other entries on Category:National Football League games, this one just does not, it stands out as the least significant unnamed event on the page. The game was primarily just impactful on the franchises. Thus, talk about the significance to the Lions' season on the Lions' season page, the significance to the Bears' season on the Bears' season page. Talk about that on the Bears–Lions rivalry page. In my opinion, this game does not warrant it's own page. TheHaft (talk) 07:51, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Delete This article is completely useless and should be deleted as soon as possible. If this article stays, why don't we have articles about other NFL games in which teams set their records?! And also, this article literally makes no sense, because it has no historical significance, Detroit set its record not only because of this match, and the fact that Detroit lifted the curse of Thanksgiving is absolutely insignificant information. According to this logic, Wikipedia should have articles about Damar Hamlin's collapse in the 2022 Bills—Benglas game and Christian Eriksen's collapse in the 2020 UEFA Denmark—Finland match. Obviously, those articles would have been much more important, since it almost took the lives of two people. 212.164.65.158 (talk) 12:54, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Delete, on hold pending below discussion, is this notable as the worse NFL clock management of all time?), have been watching the discussion and am surprised at it having so many keep comments. Hey man im josh is a Lions fan so there is no bias involved, just a commonsense appraisal of this page from a standpoint of notability. Probably a redirect to the fired coach and maybe a sentence or two mention on his page should be added to cover the topic but keeping the page would lower the bar for stand-alone pages for individual NFL games. The only NFL game I ever attended was the game in which Jim McMahon took over the Bears quarterback position. I missed the first quarter and the only touchdown of this Bears-New Orleans game, a game that George Halas said was the worse football game that he ever saw in his life. I consider it a notable game for Halas' comment alone, and McMahon's beginning his reign, which I knew was significant as I watched it happen, led to a couple of great years for the Bears and was icing on the cake. I haven't attended another NFL game because I saw the worse and that's enough for me. But Wikipedia probably wouldn't accept a page about it. The clock mistakes in this 2024 game are similar, and the bottom of the barrel is sometimes only notable to those who remember being there (for three-quarters). Randy Kryn (talk) 15:11, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, This is one of the most significant games of the 2024 season. The history of it being the root cause of the Bears firing a head coach mid-season for the first time in nearly 80 years is notable in itself. Cramerwiki (talk) 15:39, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The cause of Eberflus being firing is more than just this game. It is due to his ineffective 14–32 record overall and 4–7 record this season. In addition, the game immediately before other teams' first mid-season firing of a head coach do not have articles. Frank Anchor 16:36, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Eberflus was directly fired as a result of the ending of the game. Had they won, sure, he'd be gone after the season anyways, but this is what directly led to it. This will be a significant piece of NFL History. Cramerwiki (talk) 16:50, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's pure unsubstantiated speculation. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:01, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Frank Anchor You are correct. If a coach getting fired in mid-season after a game makes the game notable then we need an article about this game (and many more), since Robert Saleh was fired after the game. Maybe there is a scenario where clearly something in that game all by itself got the coach fired, and the game thus became notable - maybe they won the Super Bowl the prior year and in the first game of the season they did something so stupid that they got fired - but even then, discussion of the game and the stupid decision would belong in the coach's article, not a separate article for the game, unless the game itself gets persistent coverage.Rlendog (talk) 17:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Cramerwiki If the game actually does become "a significant piece of NFL History" then there will be ongoing coverage of the game to establish that, and at that time I don't think there would be much objection to recreating this article. Until then that is merely WP:CRYSTAL. Rlendog (talk) 17:13, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've replied to 4 of the 10 keeps, and to a reply someone made on a keep vote, that's certainly not replying to every keep vote as you've stated.
If you read the WP:BLUDGEON essay I believe it's clear that my behaviour does not fit said mold. Feel free to take me to WP:ANI, but I do feel comfortable in stating I have not been bludgeoning the discussion and I resent said accusation, which in of itself, is an attempt to invalidate discussion. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:38, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey man im josh, to bludgeon the accused bludgeoner as well as DrewieStewie who says the play is "monumental", a question. Is this being called the "worse time management in NFL history" in reliable sources? I know it was a time management misplay, but has bad use of the clock and time outs occurred on this scale before? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:59, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’ll check the sources after work since I’m about to clock back in, but as a quick clarification, I stated that the consequences of the play have shown to be monumental, in the positive for the lions and in the negative for the Bears/Eberflus. Clock management has never been this poor at the top level of gridiron football, and the criticism has been extensive and widespread, resulting in these consequences. DrewieStewie (talk) 15:04, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. What I'm looking for is not relevance to the teams or the coach, those are of minor notability and no reason to keep, but to possible worse NFL clock management of all time. That would be a reason to keep. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:13, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Contested (pending discussions, previously Delete): While I do understand that this can be labeled "historic", I'm pretty sure that this is more of WP:RECENTISM than actually making it historic. However, the context that has seriously built up on this article made it pretty solid and put on some valid contention whether it stands to keep or not. (Plus it can be considered a significance among the rivalry as well) Regardless though, I think that a game that has the significance of an example of having bad clock management, which the coach then getting fired the day after, is not enough to warrant a standalone creation. (Plus most of the context that happened in the final drive would most likely won't be talked about in much detail or mostly remembered other than the fact Detroit has the best start in franchise history and finally won a Thanksgiving game in 7 years)
Unlike what I said, Madhouse in Maryland and Miracle in Miami are good examples of something that is significant to the point where it can be talked about in detail. (Since the context in the final drives would something that can be remembered and look back into)
If this does get deleted however, I do want to see some split merges of some information to both team's appropriate articles and their rivalry page.
Edit: After looking back in this proposal with some of the recent replies here, I decided to just put this on the contested state under the grounds of some pending discussions above this reply. Due to this, I decided to temporarily invalidate some of my sayings here. Kirbix12 (talk) 04:58, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Parker Molloy

[edit]
Parker Molloy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Subject fails WP:BIO notability, most of the sources aren't independent of the subject. TheLoyalOrder (talk) 02:06, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TheLoyalOrder I'm counting 28 sources in that AFD, and its difficult to know what sources you are talking about specifically because they are not numbered. I suggest doing a WP:SIRS table source analysis here for clarity. You might also want to include the sources currently cited in the article as well. Best.4meter4 (talk) 03:40, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
sure, i'll do that soon. thanks TheLoyalOrder (talk) 05:27, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From Source Significant? Independent? Reliable? Secondary? Pass/Fail Notes
Currently used in article https://windycitytimes.com/2014/06/25/windy-city-times-30-under-30-to-be-honored-june-26/ No presumably presumably No X Mentioned in a list of a bunch of people by this local newspaper
https://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2014/03/31/2014-trans-100-includes-cece-mcdonald-fallon-fox#toggle-gdpr No No presumably No X Mentioned once, seemingly because she writes for them
https://web.archive.org/web/20190203133449/https://www.mediamatters.org/authors/parker-molloy/382 No No presumably No X an article she wrote, not about her
https://newrepublic.com/authors/parker-molloy No No No X its just a link to their author page
https://www.salon.com/writer/parker_marie_molloy/ No No No X ditto
https://thought.is/what-its-like-to-come-out-as-transgender-at-work/ Yes No ? No X article about herself
https://web.archive.org/web/20141104114234/http://parkthatcar.net/2012/07/16/oneoftherottenones/ No No ? No X blog post by her
Parker Marie Molloy (February 25, 2014). My Transgender Coming Out Story. Thought Catalog. ISBN 9781629210605. ? No ? No X dead link to ebook she wrote
https://web.archive.org/web/20150312125430/http://chicagoist.com/2014/03/02/interview_parker_marie_malloy_on_ca.php Yes No presumably No X interview of her
https://www.salon.com/2014/02/05/piers_morgan_grills_trans_activist.../ No Yes debatable Yes X just quotes a tweet of hers
https://web.archive.org/web/20201206162642/http://archive.azcentral.com/community/gilbert/articles/20140124gilbert-golf-inventor-suicide-website-essay-anne-vanderbilt.html No Yes ? No X she's not mentioned
https://grantland.com/features/a-mysterious-physicist-golf-club-dr-v/ No Yes ? No X ditto
https://web.archive.org/web/20170914124936/https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/3-signs-we-have-a-long-way-to-go-on-trans-rights-20150113 No No no No X an article she wrote, not about her
https://www.huffpost.com/voices/topic/transgender No debatable X its just the topic page for all trans articles
https://www.salon.com/2013/08/23/the_happy_story_of_my_transgender_coming_out/ Yes No debatable No X article about herself
https://apnews.com/article/trump-media-election-rallies-facts-kamala-harris-e906e990b5dcfe44b5e672336fe82b32 No Yes Yes Yes X leads with briefly mentioning her perspective on sanewashing of trump and then talks about other people
https://archive.ph/20141108192631/http://nlgja.org/2014/transgender-journalists-and No No ? No X just lists her a particpating in a talk
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/style-blog/wp/2013/08/22/trans-activists-scrutinize-pvt-manning-coverage/ No Yes Yes Yes X just quotes a tweet of hers
https://web.archive.org/web/20141108220813/http://theweek.com/article/index/250110 No No ? No X quotes her amongst other trans people
https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/2014/12/31/transgender-teen-leelah-alcorn-death-needs-mean-something/4hw6uPd8NtjIbn8kAdyAbM/story.html No No presumably No X her commenting on something, not about her
https://www.autostraddle.com/let-it-go-for-the-last-time-trans-women-were-not-born-boys-255055/ No Yes ? Yes X briefly quoting an op-ed she co wrote, amongst other trans people
http://www.thetrans100.com/about/ No presumably No X just a link to the trans 100 org, she's not mentioned
https://web.archive.org/web/20150213020921/http://www.nwpc.org/2014emmanominees No presumably ? No X list of people who received an honor from an org
https://web.archive.org/web/20141108212634/http://www.lapressclub.org/Resources/Documents/Finalists_NAEJ_2014.pdf No presumably ? No X ditto
https://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2014/04/17/t-word-new-n-word No No presumably No X an article she wrote, not about her
https://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2014/03/18/rupaul-stokes-anger-use-transphobic-slur No No presumably No X ditto
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/parker-marie-molloy/gay-dudes-can-you-just-not_b_4330353.html No No no No X ditto
https://web.archive.org/web/20141108213125/http://www.pqmonthly.com/parker-marie-molloy-elaborates-gay-dudes-can-just/17814 Yes No ? No X interview of her
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/parker-marie-molloy_b_5077322 not really Yes no Yes X not really about her, author mostly talks about their own experience in response to parker
https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2014/04/17/op-ed-burning-books-one-word-time No Yes ? No X doesn't mention parker
https://www.thestranger.com/seattle/about-the-word-tranny/Content?oid=19946137 No Yes ? No X ditto
https://boingboing.net/2014/04/04/rupaul.html Maybe Yes probably not Yes X perennial soucres describes boingboing.net as a group blog
https://web.archive.org/web/20160311044304/http://www.huffingtonpost.com/our-lady-j/rupauls-drag-race_b_5148719.html No Yes debatable Yes X doesn't mention parker
http://www.wtfpod.com/podcast/episodes/episode_498_-_rupaul_charles ? Yes No ? X ru paul podcast episode, presumably paul talks about his opinion
https://web.archive.org/web/20160819021941/http://roygbiv.jezebel.com/huffpostgays-offensive-video-of-drag-queen-shooting-tra-1566525131 No Yes No Yes X short blog post it looks like
https://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2014/04/14/rupauls-drag-race-logo-tv-apologize-transphobic-slur No No presumably Yes X an article she wrote, not about her
https://web.archive.org/web/20141029221559/http://www.glaad.org/blog/update-female-or-she-male-sketch-and-rupauls-drag-race No Yes presumably Yes X doesn't mention her
http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/2014/04/open-letter-100-trans-women-stand-against-calpernia-addams-and-andrea-james/ not really ? No No X a petition defending her
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/calpernia-addams-andrea-james_b_5146415 not really ? No No X ditto
https://www.queerty.com/trans-violence-watchdogs-issue-advisory-warning-against-advocate-writer-and-trans-activist-parker-molloy-20140903 not really Yes ? Yes X mentions a previous article about parker and then that were added to a list, that's all
https://www.queerty.com/park-that-attitude-the-danger-of-trans-activist-parker-molloy-20140827 probably Yes ? Yes ? unclear on the reliability of Queerty. also not sure if its coverage of her is signifcant
from prev AFD https://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2014/05/06/alaska-thunderfuck-apologizes-controversial-video not really No ? No X reads like an ad for a podcast she was on
https://www.thestranger.com/blogs/2014/10/30/20923525/sl-letter-of-the-day-drag-trans-trans-drag not really No ? No X article isn't about her, author just asked her opinion on something
links to a bunch of websites that she writes articles for No No X these aren't sources
https://web.archive.org/web/20210623155424/https://www.glaad.org/blog/author-transphobia-perfectly-natural-asked-take-leave-ad-agency not really Yes Yes Yes ? short article about Gavin McInnes that quotes a tweet of her's
https://windycitytimes.com/2014/05/14/chicagoan-writes-nationally-from-the-t-perspective/ Yes ? ? no? X its mostly an interview, which would be primary source

TheLoyalOrder (talk) 07:06, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

probably wrong on some of these judgements but not wrong to the point it changes the determinations, i think. 0 definitely good sources. Also most of these, regardless of quality, talk about like 1 controversy from a decade ago TheLoyalOrder (talk) 07:09, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I'm confused and impressed that someone would make a gigantic chart to evaluate these sources. Yes, many of them are bad or irrelevant, but so what? There are a lot of subjective judgements of individual sources that I do not share and I believe that Carrite's sources provided in the previous AFD establish notability. Gamaliel (talk) 15:18, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Carrite lists three sources: source 1 isn't independent and is primary (it's mostly an interview of her, the information is coming from the subject), source 2 is from a deprecated source WP:HUFFPOCON (basically a blog post, no editorial oversight), source 3 i'd argue its not really significant coverage of parker, more of one incident involving Parker. Unclear if this site has an editorial (no about us section) or if this is just basically a blog post.
    Even included that, that's one iffy source.
    Also note these three sources are from 2014, not really sustained coverage. TheLoyalOrder (talk) 21:21, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Weak Keep. We need to judge this by the best sources. The inclusion of additional primary sources is neither hear nor there when it comes to deletion. (Any truly superfluous ones can be removed from the article.) I think we can safely disregard the big table of sources above as it lists several secondary sources as not being so. For example, interviews are not primary sources (unless the subject is self-publishing the interview, I guess). I'm sure that this is a genuine misunderstanding but it reveals the entire AfD to be misconceived. --DanielRigal (talk) 16:04, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Update: If it is true that Malloy genuinely requests deletion then I do not oppose deletion on that basis. She is clearly notable enough for us to have an article but not so significantly notable that we must have an article about her, i.e. where not having an article would create a hole in the encyclopaedia. This is a middle position where discretion might be exercised legitimately. I am neutral on that, provided that there really is an unambiguous request for deletion. I guess that makes my !vote into a weak keep overall so I've updated it accordingly. If deleted then the article title should probably redirect to The Advocate. --DanielRigal (talk) 00:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    what are the best sources? interviews being primary sources is based on WP:Interviews, since any information they give about themselves is primary and that's what the article is about TheLoyalOrder (talk) 20:38, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Weak Keep. Sufficient coverage in reliable sources (I just added one). Funcrunch (talk) 18:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Updating my !vote as I just saw on the article talk page that the subject wants this page removed. Funcrunch (talk)
  • Delete: I do not believe Carritte's sources establish notability. The HuffPost source is unusable per WP:HUFFPOCON. I don't think the Windy City source is sufficiently independent, but even if it was that only leaves us with two usable sources between it and Queerty. The sources currently in the article seem to be a mixture of passing mentions or Molloy herself. ThadeusOfNazereth(he/him)Talk to Me! 19:17, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Comment. I've just searched for her name on google scholar and seen that she's frequently mentioned as an example of someone who has said or written something. She must be widely known. --Northernhenge (talk) 23:46, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Updated now that I've noticed what the subject herself says and looked at the article in that light. Essentially it's at risk of violating WP:NPOV throughout, in its present form. ("...representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources".) I know that doesn't have an impact on notability but it's a good reason to delete, without ruling out someone completely rewriting it in the future. --Northernhenge (talk) 15:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, she's borderline notable, however it's not a clear case as much of this is what she said/wrote, not independent coverage. Together with subject requesting deletion, I think we err on the side of their request as a BLP. Star Mississippi 02:56, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 09:23, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Benison (Beni · talk) 12:23, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete the case for meeting GNG is very weak, the article is 10 years out of date, and the subject of the article doesn't feel they meet the notability criterion. There is not enough coverage to keep this article. Walsh90210 (talk) 22:35, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep: is still mentioned in academic footnotes as of 2024 [2], with a limited amount of scholarly notice [3]. There's a limited amount of coverage as shown in the source charts above about this individual. Oaktree b (talk) 00:25, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tony Andruzzi

Proposed deletions (WP:PROD)

[edit]
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Shimeru (talk) 07:25, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jake Bernstein

[edit]
Jake Bernstein (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Non notable market trader and self publicist. Insufficient citations in WP:RS to satisfy notability. Prod removed without explanation by IP. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 22:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • a neighborly Response to TonyTheTiger
Whenever I guess, I often guess wrong, so I'd rather not mimic your guess he's a keeper this time.
The sheer volume of publication offers no supporting argument in favor of Wikipedia notability:
An argument popular at AfD proceedings is "She has X number of Y, which proves that she's notable" (or not).
We may establish notability not by the quantity of one's published work, but rather by the quality of the subject's verifiable, reliable sources. An article on a topic is more likely to pass the notability test with a single article in Encyclopedia Britannica than with 1 million views on YouTube.
For more information, please see I Like It! : Arbitrary Quantity.
I would encourage you to reverse your recommendation — if only to a Luke-Warm Delete — unless you can accomplish what not one of the rest of us has been able to do in two years of trying in good faith:
to demonstrate Notability by revealing to all of us reliable, independent, credible, established, mainstream news sources that have produced any substantial, comprehensive coverage of this subject.
— Wordsmith (talk) 03:40, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
____________________________________________
.
  • Strong Keep I'm a student of Jake Bernstein, I made the original entry and have occassionally appended it. Jake's work is objective and helpful. The entry should remain, without bias, as a simple identification of a very prolific author who is also a helpful teacher. Biased content added by the misinformed who do not know Jake or his work first hand should be removed as well as references to slanderous competitors sites. The entry should remain as a simple identification and bibliography of a prolific author. --Thor1964 (T/Special:Contributions/Thor1964/User:Thor1964/WP:Santa Cruz, CA) 12:33, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • a congenial Response to Thor1964
As I've said before, my first obligation is to presume your good faith, and I hereby renew that presumption in your favor once more.
I understand and I respect your loyalty to your subject, Thor, and I urge you to amend — and defend — your case for a Jake Bernstein article, but only if you can ingenuously establish his notability from substantial, extant, reputable, mainstream, secondary coverage of him by sources that do not "know Jake or his work first hand," in accord with the Wikipedia policy on Notability and acceptable Sources, in advance of a reincarnation of your article.
.
I myself have not, cannot, and I've failed to find even one objective person who can.
Nonetheless, I remain receptive to anyone anywhere who can do the deed honestly.
You weaken your case (when none of us should have a "case" or any agenda at all)
if you choose to neglect the only important issue here (Notability), in favor of
such expressions of a personal point of view that our guidelines for this very discussion exclude:
"I'm a student of Jake Bernstein" + Jake's "a helpful teacher" = Wikipedia: I Like Him + Wikipedia:He's Helpful
.
Please let me encourage you to cite genuine evidence of Notability if you can — or perhaps, if you find yourself agreeing that no significant, substantial, independent, secondary, reputable coverage of Jake is out there anywhere, friend, to reverse your recommendation gently to a Regretful and Reluctant Delete — since your argument here, as it stands, may carry no weight in this nomination for deletion, in view of what we find in Notability is Not a Matter of Opinion. Your statement here
  • is not supported by any policies, guidelines or precedents;
  • does not represent a neutral point of view;
  • and seems to suggest you've not had much luck finding any legitimate sources of independent coverage of Jake for your article, which is a clear sign that your charismatic teacher does not meet the notability criterion.
  • Instead of establishing notability, your arguments and your actions upon the Article as well as its Talk page serve to suggest that you may be feeling some frustration at the impossibility of resolving the troublesome issues of Jake as a suitable subject here, while you may have inadvertently been demonstrating the dearth of legitimate coverage, and his consequent inadmissibility in the face of Wikipedia's tests for notability;
  • Some of the properties of your statement are specifically listed as those to avoid in deletion discussions like this one, and it does more harm to your cause than any good.
None of us should feel committed to any cause, as such — don't you think? — except to the integrity of our encyclopedia.
Let me know if I can help you.
— Wordsmith (talk) 09:30, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
____________________________________________
.


I expect that it will just get deleted again-- this is the part that is always deleted by anonymous IP address editors every time it shows up in the article-- but given that the article is on the deletion discussion list, I put back into the article the material that has been repeatedly deleted, including the article in Forbes and the circuit court opinion:

  • William Green, "There's one born every minute," Forbes, March 9, 1999 (article at Forbes.com)
  • MBH Commodity Advisors, Inc. and Jacob Bernstein, Petitioners, v. Commodity Futures Trading Commission, Respondent. In the United States Court of Appeals For the Seventh Circuit - 250 F.3d 1052 (7th Cir. 2001) Decision (decision also available from caselaw)

Geoffrey.landis (talk) 15:05, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: Acccording to the wikipeda history of Geoffrey.landis edits, he regularly vandalizes other peoples wikipedia entries, propogates and participates in edit warring, and has been formaly punished by wikipedia in the past by being banned from making entries for a significant time period. Geoffrey.landis has proven to be an exceptionally arrogant and highly biased individual who thinks he knows everything about every subject, and should be premanetly banned from any making wikipedia entries and/or edits due to his uncivilized anti-social behavior therein. As an example, his election for deletion of other more notable and more widely published successful authors entries in wikipedia.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.200.153.184 (talk) 17:29, 24 March 2010

Please do not make personal attacks on other editors. Please adhere to the civility policy, assume good faith and observe wiki etiquette. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 20:39, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your vote of confidence, User: 76.200.153.184. Just as a comment, I notice that 76.200.153.184 has made no edits to any articles other than Jake Bernstein-- and my user page. I'll also note that Thor1964 has made no edits to any articles other than approximately 60 edits to Jake Bernstein. In fact there are a lot of anonymous editors who have done nothing except add promotional material to Jake Bernstein-- 76.247.107.66 and 99.163.50.178 and 76.254.84.164 for example, to pick just three of many. Geoffrey.landis (talk) 15:57, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –Juliancolton | Talk 00:43, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but the first step after keeping will be for someone unconnected to rewrite the article. Absurd promotionalism is not to be balanced by one-sided reports of adverse litigation, but by a fair treatment of the person. He's notable as an author because of the multiple books by major business publishers. DGG ( talk ) 02:14, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See also materials from [5]. Looks like most of this is copied from his many self promotional web sites. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:03, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Merge and redirect per previous consensus. I added an entry for Servicelive.com at Sears Holdings Corporation, using a more recent source. This article will then be redirected to preserve the history. If consensus emerges at Talk:Sears Holdings Corporation that this site doesn't merit inclusion, that works too - but it is operated by Sears and should still redirect there. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 15:20, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ServiceLive

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ServiceLive (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Tagged for merge BACK IN MARCH FREAKING 2009 and nobody could be arsed. Use it or lose it. Sources seem too thin to even warrant a merge. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 00:12, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:08, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Shimeru (talk) 19:54, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Red Bar Radio

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Red Bar Radio (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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An "internet radio" show (somebody hasn't checked the definition of radio) previously deleted, recreated, deleted G4, AfD'd and deleted again, undeleted for the user to add citations, AfDd no consensus, and has been languishing with a notability tag since 2008. Creator was Redbarradio (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), I wonder if there could possibly be a COI here? Tagged as A7 but given the history I thought it was probably better to bring it here. Guy (Help!) 18:39, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jayjg (talk) 22:42, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Candy Manson

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Candy Manson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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fails WP:PORNBIO, no indication the subject can meet the GNG or any other specialized guideline. Deleted after initial AFD, survived 2nd AFD based on now-rejected "one-nomination" standard and on subject's claim of upcoming mainstream TV work, which never materialized. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 19:53, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comment, leaning toward Keep vote I have tagged this article for rescue.
I have also added these three sources to the article. SilverserenC 09:15, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was keep. Arbitrarily0 (talk) 02:27, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Larsen

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Robert Larsen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable small college football coach, whose article was deleted at AfD two years ago. The article was userfied at the creator's request, and promptly restored by the creator with the claim that "Discovered also was a head coach at University of Chicago, added several sources." Upon an examination of the links in the article, not a single one of them discuss Larsen in substantive detail, as WP:RS requires, and half of them are simple collections of stats. Beyond that, the creator implies that the University of Chicago is, and was during Larsen's tenure, some big-time athletic school and therefore confers notability on its coaches. This is not the case; Chicago plays in Division III, a full three rungs below major college football and the lowest level of sport the NCAA sanctions at all. The article has been completely unimproved in over a year and a half. This article should never have been restored, and should be promptly deleted as failing WP:BIO and the GNG both.  Ravenswing  10:25, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep I think many programs that have been both DI and DIII have coaches for their entire history considered as notable people here on WP. Since Chicago has such a storied history from the Amos Alonzo Stagg days, I think he is an important component to the complete history of Chicago football.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:40, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:40, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:40, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep clear-cut case of a bad faith nomination. FIRST: The "promptly restored" statement, which would seem to indicate merely a few days. In this case, the restoration took from November 2, 2008 until June 26, 2009, over seven months. SECOND: Nominator supplies a "creator implies" section, stating that the article creator (yes, that's me) implied that the school was a "big-time program" and yet avoides the statement in the article about the "modern era" when the school reinstated football at the Division III level. THIRD: Nominator calls for "prompt" deletion, implying a call for a speedy deletion instead of even having the discussion. Personally, I'm not sure by "promptly" the nominator means "right this minute" or the regular AfD discussion time period or seven months. FOURTH: Nominator states that "The article has been completely unimproved in over a year and a half" to which I have two responses: a) this is just not true either, as a simple check of the article history can provide, and b) who cares if it hadn't changed a bit in a year and a half, that's not a reason to delete.--Paul McDonald (talk) 03:19, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply: You're right on the "year and a half;" I meant half a year, and that's about the only accurate statement you make. As far as the absurd notion that I'm calling for a speedy here, I've been on Wikipedia for seven years and have participated in hundreds of deletion discussions, and know very well the difference between AfD and speedies, but if you were genuinely curious, you might have considered asking without violations of WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. Moving along, of course you implied that Chicago is a big-time program; why else would being a coach there confer automatic notability that being a coach of a far smaller and more obscure school did not, and why would that mere assertion suddenly qualify the subject for an article? Finally, you fail to address the article's failure of the GNG.  Ravenswing  12:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment/Good Faith/Civility Please refer to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John D. Schwender where it seems we are having the same discussion. It should likely be here because I beleive that the bad faith violations are more prevelant here--they have sadly become linked. I have made no personal attacks and am simply calling to the Wikipedia community to review what I believe to be lies posted by the nominator, as well as providing evidence to support it for the community to review.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:07, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Request/accurate statement You stated that "that's about the only accurate statement you make" in your comment and then accuse me of not being civil. Okay, I can take it. Please take the statments I made that you find not truthful and let's address them point by point.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:12, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment/Big Time School History shows that the article Revision September 23, 2009, (edited by Huangdi) confirms that the program was an NCAA Division III School. While I did not make that edit, I thought it was a good one. It's been in place over six months.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:20, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment/Nominator's experience I'm sure you have been on Wikipedia for quite some time, but I don't see how that is a reason to delete the article. Why would you post such a statement??--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:23, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment/Speedy-promptly Okay, you don't mean to speedy delete. Just strike the word "promtly" from your nomination. Until then, the statements are adding undue weight and distracting from the issue at hand--the article being considered for deletion.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:25, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. In order to have proper encyclopedic scope, WikiProject College Football has endeavored to establish articles on the head coaches of the significant college football programs. That does not mean that every coach at every small college should have an article. The question is which programs are truly "significant." While Carroll and Chicago have had significant declines in their programs in recent years (including the years when Larsen was coach), both schools have historically had significant programs. Carroll played big-time football throughout the pre-World War II era, was involved in the game in which the first forward pass was thrown, and has produced 13 NFL players. Chicago has won two national football championships and seven Big Ten championships, produced several members of the College Football Hall of Fame (e.g., Berwanger, Des Jardien, Eckersall, Herschberger, Maxwell), and is the place where football giant Amos Alonzo Stagg made his name. Admittedly, neither Carroll nor Chicago has had a major football program in many years (even decades). This makes it a tough call on Larsen or other recent coaches at these schools. However, if we conclude that these two programs are significant (as they certainly were in the first half of the 20th Century), WikiProject Football's encyclopedic approach to coverage of such programs supports articles for head coaches of these programs. Accordingly, I lean towards keeping the articles. Cbl62 (talk) 16:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was keep. Tone 20:00, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

David Weigel

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David Weigel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Delete per WP:BIO. Just because the person has written a lot via newspaper blogs does not make the individual notable. Note that article had already been speedily deleted but was restored. As per the policy on "journalists", his individual work is not 1)regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by their peers or successors 2) had a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, that has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews or 3)either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums. -Ave Caesar (talk) 20:40, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He is a blogger, not a journalist. That's not to say bloggers can't be notable, but there is no proof of influence. --Ave Caesar (talk) 16:47, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Supporting the fact that Mr. Weigel meets the criterion of being a notable journalist is that he has appeared on multiple NPR shows (Weekend Edition, Fresh Air with Terry Gross - twice) and numerous times on the MSNBC evening cable news/political shows. In addition, he is frequently referenced when not on those shows by Wikipedia notables, including: Chris Hayes (Washington, D.C. Editor of The Nation), Ana Marie Cox (Washington Correspondent for GQ Magazine), and Rachel Maddow herself of the Rachel Maddow Show. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolverstone (talk • contribs) 13:32, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This is the first and only edit made by the above user...Further, the user offers no proof of wide citation.--Ave Caesar (talk) 16:45, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

---

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Good article discussions

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