Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard

Welcome – report issues regarding biographies of living persons here.

This noticeboard is for discussing the application of the biographies of living people (BLP) policy to article content. Please seek to resolve issues on the article talk page first, and only post here if that discussion requires additional input.

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Christian Dorsey

I would like to get other opinions on this article. Members of local county boards in Virginia typically only have local new coverage and are rarely notable beyond the local news. The only thing providing arguable notability in this case is the information in the controversies section. That section is well sourced, but overshadows the rest of the article in content and sourcing. Between the borderline notability claim and the focus on negative content, I think this page is a BLP problem. Mojo Hand (talk) 20:15, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So is your question best answered from policy at WP:BLP or at WP:AFD/WP:BEFORE? At first glance, it looks like a BLP concern because the article is a BLP. But my read of your post is that it's probably up to you to decide whether to walk through AfD. We can't/won't pre-AfD it here. This topic wasn't talk paged other than a notice about this thread. Maybe either WP:BEBOLD and AfD in good faith or clean up the article. JFHJr (㊟) 00:46, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FYI your concerns look valid to me. It's also an unflattering WP:BLP1E about a controversy. I'll watch in case anyone chooses to move this discussion to AfD. JFHJr (㊟) 00:52, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback JFHJr - I kept going back and forth on how to proceed. I came to the page with hopes of improving it, but after reading it, I honestly debated whether it qualified for G10. I (mostly) rejected that and was in the process of nominating it for AFD, before I thought I would raise it here. I should have started on the article talk, but the creator is blocked and there aren't any active editors. So, I didn't anticipate any response there. I'll take a harder look at filling it out or pulling the trigger on AFD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mojo Hand (talk • contribs) 05:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is really a strange article. The lead does not even mention that he is a member of the Arlington County Board, and neither does the career section, which describes his previous job. There is no description of the elections he won, his opponents, his vote counts or the work he has done on the board. The "controversies" section gives undue weight to these financial matters and is overly detailed in comparison to the rest of the article. Cullen328 (talk) 19:58, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like the "controversies" material was all added by this now host-blocked account. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:29, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cullen328, I added a bit of RS-backed info and copy edited. The source doesn't offer details. @NatGertler did lots of cleanup before that. The body to which he was elected appears not to be notable itself and it took me a moment to find the subsection discussing it in part (ahem, @Mojo Hand). JFHJr (㊟) 02:03, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

JFHJr, I am pretty confident the Arlington County Board is notable. It is just that no one has gotten around to writing an article about it. Cullen328 (talk) 03:12, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the board itself is notable, but I doubt many members of the board are individually notable. When I first came across this article, it looked to me like a political "hit piece" involving minor controversies about a minor local politician. After looking though the history, it clearly didn't start out that way, as he wasn't even on the board when the article was started. However, I remain concerned that it essentially turned into a political attack page. I still doubt there would be a good argument for notability beyond the controversies, which strike me as routine reporting on local elections. Even the Washington Post is often considered a local paper for Northern Virginia local politics. It is a strange article that sits right at an uncomfortable intersection between notability and BLP.-Mojo Hand (talk) 15:35, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article editing has stabilized and the product of WP:CONSENSUS is essentially a biography about a local-government level disgrace. There's little to no independent, reliable WP:SIGCOV about the biographical basics of this subject. While I can't say this is an attack page (anymore), I remain unsure of this article's encyclopedic value. Any other editors with better (subscription) access than me to certain research tools may be helpful here. JFHJr (㊟) 20:16, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

16 Related Biography Pages

There is a simple issue with 16 related biography page titles on the Karmapa tulku lineage, the pages being the 1st Karmapa to the 16th Karmapa.

The naming convention followed by the 17th Karmapa himself is tulku number, tulku title, given name as in 8th Karmapa, Mikyo Dorje. Reliable scholars also follow this standard convention used in English language journals around the world (see numerous sources providing the burden of proof at Talk:Düsum Khyenpa, 1st Karmapa Lama, Page Move Request.

Since the Karmapa tulku lineage is a lineage of successively recognized incarnations of the previous spiritual leader, it is a living lineage of the same being, reborn again and again as a spiritual leader. The current Karmapa is seen as the 16th Karmapa and as the 15th Karmapa, and so on to the 1st Karmapa. Thus, their correct names and the standard naming convention are additionally important since they are related living persons.

The opposing camp has an unsupported opinion. Contrary to the Karmapa himself, they opine that they like the given name to proceed the title, and that they like the word 'Lama' added to the title - when it has never been included in the title. Why? No valid reason has been given, after almost 4 weeks of asking.

As the burden of proof has already been met in following naming conventions, and additionally met as a BLP, I think with your help we could actually send the personal opinions back to their respective sandbox. Metokpema (talk) 11:17, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seems you've got a WP:MOS issue, whose forum is probably WP:MOSN. We do not regard past human bodily incarnations (dead persons) as still-living through the current incarnation, who is usually the only living person; no other lineage members are fit to discuss here at BLPN. Cheers! JFHJr (㊟) 22:42, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. While previous incarnations may be an issue for the notice board, the BLP standards definately apply to the living 17th Karmapa, whose web site (kagyuoffice.org) uses the same standard naming convention:

"His Holiness the Seventeenth Gyalwang Karmapa, Ogyen Trinley Dorje" (note the standard naming convention as tulku number, tulku title, given name). Thus, the BLP precedent is set, and should logically be applied to all previous Karmapas.

Of course, his web site applies the standard naming convention to the entire lineage here:

https://kagyuoffice.org/kagyu-lineage/

Can you help with this, the establishment of the naming convention by the living 17th Karmapa, set in Wikipedia through its BLP standards? Metokpema (talk) 01:32, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I might add that the BLP standard naming convention applies to three Tibetan Buddhist traditions with formalized leaders of their traditions (Kagyu, Sakya, Gelug) whose living tulkus respectively include the 17th Karmapa, Ogyen Trinley Dorje; the 41st Sakya Trichen, Ngawang Kunga, the 42nd Sakya Trizin, Ratna Vajra Rinpoche, the 43rd Sakya Trizin, Gyana Vajra Rinpoche; and, the 14th Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso. Furthermore, the naming convention is also used by scholars for the Nyingma tradition tulkus and other lineage tulkus (ie. the 2nd Yolmo Tulku, Namkai Gyalchen; 3rd Yolmo Tulku, Tenzin Norbu; the 2nd Dorje Drak Rigdzin, Lekden Dorje; the 4th Drukchen, Pema Karpo; and so on).Metokpema (talk) 02:18, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No matter how correct your argument is, I think you're still better off stating all this (more succinctly) at WP:MOSN instead. Plus, you'd like to see a wider change than on the sole living person's article. JFHJr (㊟) 02:32, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Salah Choudhury

This BLP of a Bangladeshi journalist has recently been rewritten into an attack piece undermining the journalist's credibility and portraying him as some kind of criminal. I've already pointed out on the talk page that some of the sources used are partisan or don't fulfill the criteria for reliable sources. Note that the journalist in question has been the target of vituperative campaigns to vilify him both in this native country and here on Wikipedia. He has also been the target of physical assaults. This is a subject that demands utmost sensitivity with regard to BLP and NPOV issues and both principles have been trampled on here.Mohivela (talk) 14:49, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can the article be reverted to its previous content form, before it became an attack piece? Metokpema (talk) 01:42, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like Notwally has reverted to a previous version and made other improvements. Thanks, Notwally! I'll also watch for a while. JFHJr (㊟) 00:42, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mohivela, Metokpema, and JFHJr, my edits were reverted by Ratnahastin, including both the removal of unsourced content as well as copyright violations. I reverted the restoration of the disputed material and continued the discussion on the article's talk page that was originally started by Mohivela. I would encourage other editors to look at the material and also comment there. – notwally (talk) 20:00, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all. Only the important content is being restored which does not violate any policy. Orientls (talk) 01:48, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Adding into an article that someone "has posted disinformation on various occasions" and "is noted for spreading disinformation" while citing an opinion article [1] and an unsigned editorial [2] (on a website that looks more like a blog than a newsite as well) is definitely a BLP violation. – notwally (talk) 02:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Taylor Lorenz

I would appreciate any other editors weighing in on Talk:Taylor Lorenz#The comment about Thompson murder, discussing whether or not to include the response by Lorenz to the killing of Brian Thompson. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:55, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Lattke

Michael Stephen Lattke passed away. Birth name might have been Michael Stephan Lattke, though source for obit is here: 1. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tonton Macoute (talk • contribs) 20:14, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done: The article was edited by Tonton Macoute to reflect this person is no longer living. Thanks for being bold, TM! JFHJr (㊟) 20:35, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Judy Singer

My biography, Judy Singer and in the page on Neurodiversity has constantly been subject to hostile edits. I cannot deduce from the editors whether they are my actual rivals in the field, or their agents, or perhaps unqualified self-appointed editors relying on social media gossip. Or worse, rapacious "news" hounds eager to break"scandals".

In particular, the articles gives huge recognition to an American Journalist Harvey Blume, who learned the concept of Neurodiversity from me, who had no understanding or experience of the Disability Rights Movement, who wrote about Neurodiversity once without citing me. Note that he was not required to cite me, being a freelance jobbing journalist. Nor did I complain at the time, because I had no idea that my idea would go "viral".

As an Australian female autistic, I find this doubly distressing as an example of both Northern Hemisphere Cultural Hegemony and Sexism I am immensely distressed by this.

I would like my biography removed until it is corrected based on verifiable original documents, and not social media gossip weaponised by my slanderous rivals.

It is distressing that the above mentioned rivals have been inserted into my biography.

I also give notice that definition given of Neurodiversity on your Neurodiversity page, is apparently edited by amateurs who do not understand the paradigm at all. I will attend to that later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsinger (talk • contribs) 22:56, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Jsinger. Biographies of living people have content based on reliable third-party sources, but content is mostly not based on primary, "original" sources. This is certainly not a forum to disparage or name your perceived enemies and inferiors. And please, don't skirt any closer to the limits of WP:NLT. I've found no evidence of malicious or coordinated edits recently (see related: WP:AGF). Would you like to provide examples of undue coverage that appear in the article? You can put two straight apostrophes, '' before and after the objectionable material you've copy/pasted here as examples. Remember, we only go by what's in a reliable source. In the meantime, willing BLPN volunteers might watch and review this space and the articles you've indicated. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 03:04, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we're supposed to only go by reliable sources... however, sometimes we err. I just axed one reference that was a Forbes "contributor" article, and thus utterly unusable for biographical information about a living person. The other one being used for that particular set of information at first glance looks good, as it's a journal citation... but it turns out not to be a journal article but rather a letter to the editor; I am unclear on whether we grant those as much weight as we do articles. I also removed a claim of criticism that was not backed by the source being used. The article could use eyes on it. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 06:32, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks NatGertler and Gråbergs Gråa Sång for eyes and hands. I'll keep watching as well. @Jsinger, the article about you may never be to your complete liking. Sorry. See WP:NPOV. We are open to adding or modifying the article per information in reliable sources. We probably won't remove content that's reliably sourced. We don't have a temporary removal as you requested, but only deletion. Cheers, all! JFHJr (㊟) 00:29, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And regarding your apparent deletion request, see WP:BEFORE for the procedure onto the forum where articles get deleted. JFHJr (㊟) 03:17, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Becoming low-profile

If possible, I am hoping for editor input on how a subject could become low-profile in regards to the article 'Louise Glover'.

The subject of this article has recently been deemed as high-profile due to recent media coverage. But, hypothetically speaking, would it be possible for them to become low-profile if they no longer spoke to the media or engaged in any high profile activities?

And, if they were low-profile, would this justify a more cautious approach to any information on their page that could cause undue harm and damange their reputation?

Ideally, any input on this should be directed to the article's talk page under the recent December 2024 discussions heading, so as to avoid fragmentation. Svenska356 (talk) 13:19, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's no such thing as 'low' or 'high' profile articles here. Somebody is either notable or they are not. Giant Snowman 13:33, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this is about WP:PUBLICFIGURE and Wikipedia:Who is a low-profile individual. There are different thresholds for inclusion depending on if someone is a public figure. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:36, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting, thanks. According that essay, someone who is 'low' profile has not sought out public attention. That appears to be the opposite of what Ms Glover has done... Giant Snowman 13:43, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think Svenska is wondering what it takes for someone to become no longer high profile. When someone who was a public figure steps back from public life at what point do we no longer treat them as a public figure. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:46, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Years rather than months, surely? Giant Snowman 13:49, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Likely never... Its not really a concept that expires... Once a public figure always a public figure in the same way that once notable always notable. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:09, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

People can stop being public figures, at least more minor ones. It takes a while and they have to avoid all publicity though. – notwally (talk) 05:52, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't seem to matter for out purposes, as far as wikipedia is concerned once a public figure always a public figure (although of course there could be individual exceptions as with anything). If you promoted yourself at 21 it still counts at 101, you can't put that genie back in the bottle. The only exception I would personally support would be those who became public figures before they were adults and as adults have not engaged in self promotion or related activities. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:31, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What happened while they were a public figure can't be changed, but if they clearly draw themselves away from the public for several years, and the only bit of news that comes out from that period is some minor legal scuffle with iffy coverage, PUBLICFIGURE wouldn't apply at that point. Masem (t) 17:12, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That part doesn't actually seem to be written dowm anywhere or how its been applied in practice. For example the Media attention explantion "Has given one or more scheduled interviews to a notable publication, website, podcast, or television or radio program, as a "media personality" (a.k.a. "public face" or "big name"), a self-described "expert", or some other ostensibly (or would-be) notable commentator. Need not be a "household name", simply self-promotional. May ostensibly represent an employer or other group, but is clearly self-representing as well." places no limit on when the interviews occured. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:32, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it's not written explicitly but I read it as a part ofBLP's goal to respect privacy of individuals, and if a once public figure has taken active steps to withdraw, bursts of weakly sourced coverage about them for a minor faux pas is a privacy issue. Further, that level of detail is inappropriate for being an encyclopedia in general; bio pages should be trying to document every mention of a person's life that shows up in RSes. Masem (t) 17:55, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We agree on that, we just seem to disagree on timeline... For example if someone promoted themselves in a commercial sense then IMO they're a high profile individual at least until they retire. I also assume that we agree that exceptions to the rule would be most due in the case of people who became high profile individuals as children but then did not seek attention as adults. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:00, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are two issues at play here. One is how to judge when someone, once in the spotlight, has done enough to purposely withdraw from that, and that I don't believe is clear cut, only that we should give the benefit of doubt. The other factor is the community's obsessiveness with detailed, on the spot coverage of any BLP, regardless of public Ness or not. An example I recall was a b list actor that got into a DUI and was ticketed. Reported on all the gossip papers as well as some trades, but it didn't affect his life at all beyond that. That was ultimately removed because it wasn't a critical part of this person's life; that is also a factor to weigh. We are not required to include every verifiable detail, and should opt to avoid when it is around small, non impactful details as to support respect for privacy of a BLP. Masem (t) 18:18, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They seem seperate to me... Both are part of the notability assesment process but I wouln't link them too closely. Overall though it seems like a moot point in this context because the figure in question is still promoting themselves publically. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:10, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Masem Agreed. Upon reflection, I still have reservations about the inclusion of the criminal convictions. Clearly, the subject is notable. But, I am not sure that the subject is high-profile enough to warrant their inclusion. As I said previously, if the subject's high-profile status is up for debate and the overall consensus favours it, I would personally err on the side of caution and opt for removal per WP: NOTPUBLICFIGURE. There is no limit placed on when the interviews occurred, but WP: LOWPROFILE still specifies that a subject can become low-profile even after having engaged in high-profile activities. Svenska356 (talk) 17:48, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The subject currently has a promotional website, the subject is clearly not LOWPROFILE even if we disagree on what point in the future they could become so if for example they stopped promoting themselves publicly. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:53, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Horse Eye's Back I agree that the subject may not be low-profile. But I see it as a borderline case. They are clearly less high-profile than in the past. As @Masem said though, it isn't clear cut, and I think that some care still should be taken towards what is included, especially when it could cause undue harm and isn't a key part of the subject's life. Svenska356 (talk) 18:58, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the subject has a live promotional website then its not a border case, thats a clear cut public figure... What appears to be borderline is whether or not the subject is actually notable. Keep in mind that they're not necessarily dependent, a non-public figure can still be notable and a public figure can still be non-notable. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:12, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Horse Eye's Back I had previously assumed that the subject was notable. But, now you mention it, I can see how it could be borderline. In that case, does the article even need to exist? Or, at the very least, wouldn't it be excessive to include information unrelated to the subject's notability, if that very notability is in doubt? Svenska356 (talk) 19:28, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to have an agenda, I'm not interested in collaborating with you on this. This will be my last comment on the matter. Have a nice day and I apologize if this is an unpleasant experience for you. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:48, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Horse Eye's Back I declared on my talk page that I have a COI, in regard to having been asked by the subject through social media to help remove harmful information from this article. But, my intention was only ever for it to be modified to better conform with Wikipedia guidelines. I apologise for omitting the fact that I had a COI when I made this post on this project page. I don't support deletion, I only supported the removal of the subject's convictions for harm and balancing reasons. But, if the general consensus is to keep them, then that I accept the outcome. I don't want to flog a dead horse to no end per WP: DROPTHESTICK. Svenska356 (talk) 23:14, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think once one becomes a public figure, it is hard to put that genie in the bottle unless they have years out of the public eye, its not something you can automatically do.

However, keep in mind BLP is meant to respect the privacy of all individuals. And looking at that last article and the part that is sourced to the Sun (even if through other more RSes), that's exactly the type of nonsense info that we'd not want regardless of PUBLICFIGURE or not with that tabloid sourcing. Masem (t) 13:40, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Masem@ScottishFinnishRadish@GiantSnowman I agree that the tabloid sourcing from the sun is less reliable. The issue I have with the article is indeed that it does not necessarily respect the subject's privacy in regard to their personal life and the matters unrelated to their original reason for notability. In addition, the subject has mostly been out of the public eye for the past 10 years or so, with their recent interview from the sun being a one off rather than a maintained pattern of high profile activity. So, on the balance of things, I feel that the article may be causing undue harm to someone who is no longer really in the public eye. Svenska356 (talk) 14:25, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the tent content because it originated in an unreliable source The Sun and regurgitation by other media outlets does not change that fact. Cullen328 (talk) 05:42, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cullen328Thank you. Also, what are you thoughts on the paragraph detailing the subject's crinimal convictions? It is more reliably sourced. However, I have harm and balancing concerns regarding their inclusion, as the subject appears to be a lot less high-profile than in the past. Svenska356 (talk) 12:12, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When a notable non-public person has been convicted of a crime there is not a BLP restriction on including that in their article so I'd say that the criminal convictions can stay in the article but should be brief and clear. At article talk I mentioned a format of "on date she was convicted of crime for doing act" and then get out. It's relevant content about her life. But we don't need to dwell on it. Simonm223 (talk) 14:09, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is sorta against PUBLICFIGURE, but it raises the question if someone who was once very visible but has pulled back is truly still a public figure. I would argue that since BLP favors privacy over inclusion that even in this case we'd likely not include it if it lacks broad reporting. It verges on gossip mongering. — Masem (t) 14:27, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the convictions should be excluded if the subject is no longer a public figure. Per WP: NOTPUBLICFIGURE, extra care should be taken not to include material that could cause undue harm and infringe upon the subject's right to privacy. The sources that do link to the convictions are both archived and the original article for one of them was taken down. I am not sure that the convictions are widely reported enough to justify their inclusion, especially in light of the subject no longer being a public figure. Svenska356 (talk) 16:53, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the part about the criminal convictions can be trimmed to be more concise. I disagree that she is no longer a public figure. This very recent article in the St Helens Star shows that she is still seeking public attention. Cullen328 (talk) 18:57, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Masem I think this may get back to some of my frustrations about how PUBLICFIGURE is worded and the ambiguity it causes around crimes specifically. I have no strong dog in this race and do concur that we should respect BLP privacy wherever possible so, in light of that I'll retract my former comment and concur to remove in light of your guidance. Thanks. Simonm223 (talk) 19:03, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You aren't wrong that we need to be a bit more specific on PUBLICFIGURE; many current problems extend from an unhealthy obsession by editors overall to include any detail, no matter how trivial, in part that we have verved very far off what NOTNEWS says, and becomes worse when BLP gets involved, coupled with large scale resentment towards certain persons and groups at this current time that can make some articles look like hit pieces though editors will justify that it's all reliably sourced. Masem (t) 19:20, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Amen. Simonm223 (talk) 19:48, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even for someone that is a public figure beyond question of a doubt, a small tone controversy or arrest or similar that gets minimal coverage in RSes and not discussed further years after that us likely, sonething we shouldn't include. I know that with the current attitudes that want to rush to include every breaking detail that stuff like this gets added but we should be far more selective with BLP involved. We are meant to be summarizing, not detailing. — Masem (t) 19:04, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, and WP:DUE means that more minor stuff with no legs from a news sense shouldn't even be considered for inclusion in an article anyway. We're meant to summarise the zeniths and nadirs of a subject, not crawl all over them with a nit-comb and report every sordid detail about how, that one time at band camp, they stepped on a ladybird on accident. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 19:48, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the general thrust of the previous comments but I do not agree with comparing two criminal convictions for assault as an adult as equivalent to accidentally stepping on a ladybird (ladybug in American English) as a child. Let's trim it back but not eliminate it. Cullen328 (talk) 22:16, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cullen328 - WP:DAILYMIRROR shouldn't be used in a BLP at all, which only leaves The Argus, a local newspaper with a circulation of around ~3600. If these incidents didn't receive better coverage than a local newspaper, I would eliminate it altogether. BLP is pretty clear on this - If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out. We should be using multiple high-quality sources in a BLP. Isaidnoway (talk) 04:48, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I trimmed the assault matter to a single sentence and removed the Daily Mirror source. The Argus source was a reprint of a BBC article, so I removed it and added references to the BBC, The Independent and 9News in Australia. Cullen328 (talk) 08:47, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, much better, thank you. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cullen328 I agree that it is a big improvement, thank you. In addition to this though, what do you think about the paragraph concerning the subject's benefit fraud conviction? It is under the career section. It was previously kept in because the conviction is supposedly linked to their career, but even so I believe that it goes into far too much detail. Svenska356 (talk) 10:52, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cullen328 In regard to the assault convictions though, the general consensus still seems to favour total removal. Based on that and the arguments above, I believe that one sentence about them may still be excessive. Even if the subject is high-profile, I see it as quite borderline. So, on the balance of things, I am in favour of total removal in order to respect the subject's privacy and prevent any undue harm from being caused. Given that the subject is no longer as high-profile as in the past, I would personally err on the side of caution and not include the convictions per WP: NOTPUBLICFIGURE. Svenska356 (talk) 21:44, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would oppose total removal, one sentence with the improved sourcing is DUE for inclusion. And I don't think NOTPUBLICFIGURE really applies either, in addition to the source Cullen328 posted above, if you look at her social media accounts, she has been posting pretty regular since this past summer, with the most recent in November, and she has a combined following of roughly 1.5 million people. So it doesn't look like to me she is actively trying to stay under the radar. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:17, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The continued assertions that Louise Glover should be considered a low profile person are false and misleading. She maintains a promotional website, LouiseGlover.com, which has glamour photos of her in swimsuits and lingerie, and where she describes herself as "Louise Glover - Professional Model, Fitness competitor and Nutritionist". She has an Instagram page where she describes herself as a "Professional Model 20yrs • Freelance TV Presenter • Wellness Fitness Coach", and has 111,000 followers. She has a Facebook page where she describes herself as a "Public figure" and a "Professional Model 20 years, Sports TV presenter, Travel Influencer, Fitness coach in Windsor" and has 1.3 million followers. Her Facebook page shows her modeling in London, Ascot, Dubai and Sri Lanka in 2024. There are 263 photos of her for sale on Getty Images. She was interviewed for nine minutes by GB News in October, 2024, which she promoted to her Facebook followers. She was interviewed at great length by the St Helen Star in October, 2024, which she promoted to her Facebook followers. So, the original question was how a subject could become low-profile? The answer is to close her website, close her Instagram account, stop giving interviews, stop describing herself as an influencer, stop engaging in reputation management, make her Facebook page private for only her closest family and real world friends, and wait multiple years. Cullen328 (talk) 02:29, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cullen328 I understand your point. In this case, I am happy to compromise with regards to the criminal convictions. When, you put it like that, I can understand why the subject appears to be a high-profile figure. As a closing question though, if the subject did do all the things you listed above and maintained it over many years, would that then justify the convictions being removed per BLP: NOTPUBLICFIGURE? Svenska356 (talk) 02:35, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is a question that should be discussed in many years, not now, Svenska356. When you say I am happy to compromise, that implies that you consider yourself an agent representing Glover's interests rather than a neutral editor here to improve Wikipedia. I notice that over 90% of your edits have to do with Glover in one way or another since establishing your account in early October. I encourage you to read Wikipedia:Single-purpose account and ponder whether you are here on Wikipedia to build an encyclopedia or instead here to whitewash Louise Glover's shocking crime. This is not a negotiation with you being granted the power to "compromise" on Glover's behalf. By no means. Cullen328 (talk) 03:01, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cullen328 Poor choice of words. What I mean is I accept your point, and I agree that your decision is the correct one. I am not an agent, perse. I don't represent the subject in any official way. I was just asked by the subject to help remove some of the negative information from their Wikipedia page. I declared COI on my talk page in regard to this. I do intend to use this account to edit other unrelated articles. Svenska356 (talk) 03:14, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Emil Pagliarulo

The whole page is written as a hit piece, other developers and managers at Bethesda with the same rank or relevance don't even have a page at all. Each gaming paragraph doesn't actually talk about developing said games, but it's just a collection of twitter controversies, speculation, and generally statements cherrypicked to paint the developer in question in a bad light. The page doesn't even come close to being neutral, and every attempt to change that gets reverted, regardless of how badly the current text is. If the page now looks a little more neutral is because I deleted a lot of the worst part back in July, just check the edits to find plenty of misleading citations (Like players supposedly complaining about a gameplay loop weeks before the game launch) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tulgrok (talk • contribs) 19:53, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PS: I want to point out that Emil Pagliarulo has been the target of an harrassment campaing for almost a decade now, and blaming him for all problems with modern gaming (hyperbole) is basically a sub-genre on Youtube. Tulgrok (talk) 19:55, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Charles Lane (journalist), round 3

Charles Lane (journalist) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

[Note: This is a COI (but unpaid) comment; Lane is a family friend and this involves a controversy that my father was part of. Lane edits here as SuzukaBlue and reached out to me about his concerns, but the following is my own impression of the situation, and, I hope it will be clear, is consistent with other, non-conflicted editors' reading in the past.]

Charles Lane (journalist) has been the subject of two discussions on this noticeboard in the past, in 2012 and in 2022. In 2012, the article looked like this, including a three-paragraph controversy section about minor disputes, mostly written by Cathradgenations. Cathradgenations also implied that Lane was at fault in the Stephen Glass affair; I am not aware of any source that takes that position, as Lane is generally associated with his work cleaning up the scandal after he fired Glass. The two uninvolved users in that thread felt that the article was "obviously mis-using sources, and biased or misleading sources" and "grossly abused the sources which made clear that Lane was the 'cleaner-upper' who got rid of Glass"; the two significantly reworked the article to fix these misrepresentations. Other editors later removed [3] [4] more negative content as UNDUE.

So things stayed until 2018, when Cathradgenations returned to remove a positive quote about Lane's handling of the Glass affair and to add back the paragraph implying he was fired for mishandling it. To be clear, neither [5] nor [6], cited for this proposition, verify the claim being made. Cathradgenations' addition included a supposed quote from Lane's boss Marty Peretz that Lane "sullied the good name of the New Republic", appears nowhere on Google except mirrors. (Yes, there is a bitter irony in the possibility of fabulism regarding the Glass affair.)

Beginning in 2020, Cathradgenations made another 109 edits to the article, the bulk of which can be seen in this composite diff, restoring essentially the same trivial controversies as had been removed by BLPN consensus in 2012. In 2022, Lane became aware of this, and after being rebuffed from an initial attempt to remove the information from this article himself, brought the matter to this board, where Morbidthoughts, Dumuzid, and ScottishFinnishRadish, like their predecessors a decade prior, found issues with DUE, BLP, and source quality, and slashed the article down again, despite edit-warring from Cathradgenations. A page protection by Deepfriedokra due to the edit war had the unfortunate effect of stalling further de-POV-ing, leaving in place a lede that mentioned Lane's role as Glass' boss but not his role in cleaning up Glass' mess.

Anyways, two years later, take a wild guess what's been added back to the article, and who added it?

I can go into more detail about why specific statements are inaccurate or misleading, but given two BLPN threads in the past, I'm hoping that's already established at this point, and the question is why a user with 4,000 edits keeps restoring this. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|🤷) 23:18, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As I was pinged, but have no recollection of this, might I suggest a WP:TBAN and a WP:partial block? -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 23:21, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If they're aware of BLP CTOP you can just topic ban them unilaterally. I think I did enough editing on that article that I shouldn't be levying unilateral sanctions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:31, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone ahead and removed the whole controversies section. I think at minimum a page ban should be issued for repeated ignoring of consensus. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:38, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, I was unaware there was a consensus or controversy of this level about adding the more recent material I added to the Lane article. I thought that earlier discussion related to other material and subjects from a long time ago. The newly added material was almost entirely based on what seemed like legitimate issues raised by a respected press critic for a respected publication.

Aware of this now, I will just refrain from editing the Lane article further and apologize for not knowing about the previous consensus. Apologies all around.

On one discordant chord, I would like to protest the immensely personal comments made by Lane's friend-- who concedes his COIpp about me. I edited the article in good faith, and among other things, added positive or favorable material. As a one time contributor to this site-- and one with a COI, Lane's family friend does not explain or fully disclose that COI, or his role other than saying he is a family friend. One would hope he would in the future be more civil in his comments about long term Wikipedians.

I would also like to point out that Moe Tkacik is a much respected media and social critic. She is the investigations editor of the American Prospect, and a senior fellow with the American Economic Liberties Project. Here is her article on Lane?

https://washingtoncitypaper.com/article/339522/charles-lane-the-washington-posts-unsung-free-market-fanboy/ Was there nothing compelling in what she had to say, not even a few graphs and a link-- to go with an entirely favorable entry on him, ironically so positive because of material I added?

Once again, apologies and regrets to my fellow Wikipedia editors. I have no interest in editing this article further, and will voluntarily refrain from doing so. I have done thousands of Wiki edits. I have sonw dozens and dozens on Robert Kennedy Jr. and had no reverts, controversies, and only thanks and words of appreciation. Who thought those edits would cause no controversies, while an obscure one on Charles Lane would? Any further issues he or his family friend have in the future will be with someone else.

To everyone else, thanks for your patience and forbearance. Looking forward to improving and learning more from you in the future. And sincerest apologies. Cathradgenations (talk) 07:27, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you see as "immensely personal" here. My comment is focused entirely on the article and the edits you've made to it, nothing about you as a person. I'm also not sure how you would like me to more fully disclose my COI other than the disclaimer above, the link to my father's article (from which I would hope it's obvious how I know Lane), and having my full legal name on my userpage. If you'd like more detail: My interactions with Lane, at least since I was old enough to recall, consist of two email threads and a brief conversation at a memorial event for my dad. We were both quoted in an article about Shattered Glass, but weren't in contact as part of that. I have never edited his article, and, as best I can recall, have never edited about him on any other article. But still, yes, I have a COI (more regarding my father than Lane), and unconflicted editors should absolutely take what I say with a grain of salt. That's why I've cited five uninvolved editors in the past who took issue with what you were doing. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|🤷) 07:59, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This was a bit unkind: "Anyways, two years later, take a wild guess what's been added back to the article, and who added it?" Also, the comments by Marty Peretz being involved proceeded my involvement, as did the wrong links to the Weekly Standard. Had I fully understood, I would have deleted them. I thought Moe Thaick had some points; the comments about Gabby Giffords, the woman with. a brain tumor, and fat people were dumb. They did not perhaps reflect Lane's whole career, but from my standpoint, were more than fair to include-- at a lesser length. To balance that out I added to the article he was a Pulitzer finalist, only to see that removed.

In the end, it does not matter anymore. Everything appears resolved. I'm not ever going to edit that page ever again. There is a consensus on the other side of the one minor thing we disagree on, so that has been resolved too.

I had no personal agenda-- I met your dad a few times, and was sad to learn of his passing and had something to do with the award named in his honor. A very kind man. Cathradgenations (talk) 10:58, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Simeon Boikov

Can I get experienced editors eyes on this article please as it's a steaming pile of horseshit at present. Having some knowledge of the subject matter they probably meet WP:GNG but this article is beyond hopeless. TarnishedPath^talk 12:26, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Additional input requested

Please see Talk:Loudoun County Public Schools#Private figure conviction. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:06, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gave my input there. Mostly a side-note, but I find naming the discussion section about including a name or not, the actual name of the person in question, especially in such a context, very poor form on the part of the initiator of the discussion. Choucas Bleu^talk_contribs 14:28, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not great, but it's on a talk page and is sourced so I didn't inflame things further by redacting it. I have no objection if someone else cares to redact. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:31, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I figured yeah, that was also my reasoning. I will leave it for now, but if there is consensus against including the name, I will redact it afterwards. Choucas Bleu^talk_contribs 14:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings. I modified SFR's OP comment to reflect that I have retitled the talk page section. I also commented there. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 00:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jigme Singye Wangchuck

A new editor, Dorjinidup (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), appeared on this article yesterday to add flowery language like "the visionary King", and overwriting the exiting (seemingly accurate, sourced but negative) material. I have reverted twice, but the hagiography has been added back each time and I'm not prepared to revert for a third time. The material they're adding was previously unsourced; they are now adding sources: blogs and puff pieces. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 15:45, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

moved on behalf of the IP editor from the talkpage, as this page is semi-protected Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 15:56, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW I agree with the IP editor's objections, and have reinstated their previous edit. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 16:01, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

copied from user talk:caeciliusinhorto#Jigme Singye Wangchuck as the IP is unable to edit through semi-protection (nor is Dorjinidup, incidentally) 20:58, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In this edit Dorjinidup (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is getting there about what we would want from an edit to a BLP: it's sourced (albeit still not neutrally) and is even maybe useful... but it's still highly biased language (down to using "He" with a capital letter for the pronoun) and again has overwritten what appears to be accurate, sourced, but negative, information. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 19:12, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maggie Cheung

Maggie Cheung (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I'm looking for some additional eyes on a budding edit-war around an edit to the personal life section. This edit [7] is adding some fairly trivial and tabloidish details about Cheung's dating life with some details that I feel are way into tabloid range ("stealing her boyfriend") and in general don't belong for WP:BLPGOSSIP reasons. I've invited them to discuss on the talk page but their revert comments aren't encouraging. Some additional eyes and thoughts would be appreciated. The other editor claims that "all sourced in the end, none tabloid". and while there are three existing sources in the section, I'm questioning if they actually support what's being added. The sources are all in Chinese, so using google translate didn't turn up what I would consider support for the edits. Thanks. Ravensfire (talk) 03:18, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I dislike this type of "list of boyfriends/girlfriends" type of content, but it is commonplace in celebrity biographies. The main issues, as I see it, are whether the English Wikipedia prose is an accurate summary of the source's Chinese prose, and whether or not China News Service, which is operated by the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party, is a reliable source for this type of material. Our article about this press agency describes some indicators of unreliability that concern me. Cullen328 (talk) 06:13, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have no interest in engaging in an edit war or indulging in outdated, prudish, or fan-like narratives about celebrities. However, claiming that Maggie Cheung’s personal life is an unconstructive or irrelevant addition is simply incorrect. Her love life is essential to both her identity and public image (Ever wonder why she left Hong Kong and showbiz altogether?). Dismissing its relevance demonstrates a lack of insight into her or pop culture in general.

Furthermore, what is presented here are widely reported, verifiable facts—not unsubstantiated gossip. And even if it were gossip, that doesn’t mean it’s irrelevant. Her relationship with Sung may conceal her first marriage, as claimed by some sources. Her long-rumored relationship with Tony Leung is integral not only to the enduring legacy of In the Mood for Love but also to the folklore and cultural imagination of Hong Kong cinema. But these are duly omitted for being “gossip.”

Regarding the claim that “the sources are all in Chinese, so using Google Translate didn’t turn up what I would consider support for the edits,” it is either unfortunately misguided or absurdly Western-centric to dismiss Chinese sources on Maggie Cheung simply due to a lack of literacy in Chinese, the primary language for information about her. These sources are more reliable than Google Translate.

Finally, regarding the good-faith reply, it is worth reminding the fact that China does not have independent media; all outlets are state-owned and party-controlled. However, it is a stretch to suggest that the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party would interfere with the China News Service (largely repeating HK media anyway) over their reporting on Maggie Cheung’s boyfriends. Enrico Chou (talk) 07:47, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Enrico Chou, I am not suggesting that their reporting on a celebrity's boyfriends is affected by directives from the Central Committee, but that is not the point. Use only of reliable sources for "everything" is an important principle on Wikipedia. The New York Daily News is an unreliable source, but they are not known for lying about which team won a baseball championship yesterday. The Daily Mail is an unreliable source but they are not known for lying about which team won yesterday's cricket championship. But actual reliable sources also report on these championships, and so the reliable sources should be used instead of the unreliable ones. If something is reported only by unreliable sources, then that thing does not belong on Wikipedia. So, the boyfriend content, if it is to stay, should be referenced to sources that we can agree through consensus are reliable. Cullen328 (talk) 08:06, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sources cited are China Central Television, China News Service, and Global People magazine, which is affiliated with People’s Daily. None of these sources are comparable to New York Daily News or Daily Mail. Aside the party line, their Western counterparts would be CNN, Reuters, and The New York Times Magazine. Enrico Chou (talk) 13:50, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Brianna_Wu#Edit_request

I'm inviting editors with knowledge about WP:BLP and WP:RS to evaluate the inclusion of some information by this PinkNews article [8] on Brianna Wu (a very contentious article that has been fully protected since 2023). The discussion is taking place at Talk:Brianna_Wu#Edit_request, please prefer to comment there instead of here. Badbluebus (talk) 19:53, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. It's due inclusion. Yes. The source it is derived from is reliable. Suggest maybe notifying the Fringe theory noticeboard since WP:FRINGE is being (improperly) raised at article talk there. Simonm223 (talk) 20:20, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mike Nifong

The article for Mike Nifong, who is a living person, begins with: "Michael Byron Nifong (born September 14, 1950) is an American former attorney and convicted criminal." I have a concern that describing him as a "convicted criminal" in the lede of his article in inconsistent with WP:BLP to the extent that it is a little misleading and runs afoul of WP:LABEL for the reasons I'll now explain. The basis for this characterization is that after being disbarred for his misconduct in prosecuting the Duke lacrosse rape case, Mike Nifong was found in criminal contempt of court (this too was based on his misconduct in the Duke lacrosse rape case) and served a day in jail. Someone who has been found in contempt of court is a pretty non-central example of what is usually understood by the label "convicted criminal," and contempt of court (even criminal contempt of court) is a pretty non-central example of a "crime." In North Carolina where this finding and sentence were imposed, criminal contempt of court is considered a sui generis offense. It is neither misdemeanor nor felony and has no sentencing guidelines. Because contempt of court is kind of a strange legal creature, it also doesn't afford the defendant certain rights (like jury trial) that are afforded for other, more central, crimes. I think the article would be improved by removing this label from the lede. His brief imprisonment is mentioned in the very next sentence, and all of the information about the contempt finding in the body of the article is correct and well-presented. Apologies if this report or suggestion is irregular or unwanted. I don't edit very frequently so I'm sure there are important aspects of the situation that I don't understand. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 01:22, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For full disclosure, I am from the same area of NC and practice the same profession. I agree it's arguably WP:UNDUE for the lede. Normally this would be, for any other subject. Because this disbarred attorney is actually notable centrally for his professional and legal disgrace, and because his criminal contempt of court conviction is unusual to say the least for similarly situated attorneys (officers of the court), I'm a bit loath to remove it myself. Usually, we try this kind of in-depth discussion on the talk page of the article before escalating here. Please WP:BEBOLD in this situation and talk page your edits. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 02:05, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It feels odd to call someone a convicted criminal for a contempt charge. Maybe describe him as a disbarred attorney, not as just a former attorney? Or a combination of the two in the first sentence? Ravensfire (talk) 03:35, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I find that to be a fair position. Thank you, Ravensfire. I'd go so far as to say disgraced. I'll still leave it up to talk page consensus or anyone else who wants to make such an edit. JFHJr (㊟) 03:48, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@JFHJr @Ravensfire @Starke Hathaway: FYI, there is now MOS guidance on this as of a few months ago, MOS:CRIMINAL. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|🤷) 18:12, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

People usually use "convicted criminal" or just "criminal" if the actual crime in question does not make the person look bad enough for their liking. The only time phrasing like that should be used is if, say, someone is notable for a particularly large and odd range of crimes - and even then there's probably something better. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The National Science Institute

The National Science Institute (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Most of § Federal raid and aftermath here violated WP:BLPPRIMARY, except for part that was sourced to an unrelated Russian journal article. It should be easy enough to restore with secondary sources, but I don't have the time at the moment, so per BLPSOURCES I have simply removed. Thought I'd drop this here if anyone is interested in salvaging what I slashed; the case has been getting attention the past few months due to a video by one of the people convicted in the case. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|🤷) 08:40, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Antonio Monda

Courtesy link: Antonio Monda

What is our attitude towards a BLP that appears to be uncontentious (I haven't read it all), but lacks even a single WP:SECONDARY source? This is the case with Antonio Monda, with four primary refs (all interviews or based on them) and no secondary sources. This would never pass Afc if submitted today, but was begun in 2007; does that somehow grandfather in the lack of required sourcing? This issue was first raised at the Teahouse by 69.181.17.113 (talk · contribs). Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 19:07, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is definitely preferable for an article to have reliable secondary sources in addition to primary ones. It may not conform to WP: Primary in its current state. Even if it is uncontentious, I believe that more sources need to be added to this article, including high quality secondary sources. There is too much information that is uncited. Svenska356 (talk) 19:38, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BLPCRIME & international criminal law

Do categories like Category:Fugitives wanted by the International Criminal Court, Category:Fugitives wanted on war crimes charges, & Category:Fugitives wanted on crimes against humanity charges break WP:BLPCRIME?

This issue was first brought up by @AndreJustAndre at Talk:Yoav Gallant#WP:BLPCRIME, but as it calls into question the validity of such categories as a whole, I thought it best to ask how/if WP:BLPCRIME interacts with international criminal law.

_{Moved here by request of @Simonm223.} Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 22:37, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gallant is definitely a PUBLICFIGURE and we should neutrally document what sources say, but categories like "fugitive" and "war criminal" don't seem adequately attested in sources to be a category, which should be a defining characteristic. And you did leave out the "war criminal" category in your question. Andre🚐 22:40, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies. I hadn't asked about "war criminal" as I agreed with your removal of it & that no one reinstated it later. I only asked about categories that are currently still on the page. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 23:09, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gallant is certainly a public figure. "War Criminal" is, unfortunately, the domain of WP:CRYSTALBALL but fugitive from the ICC is accurate and reflected in many reliable sources. Simonm223 (talk) 23:00, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't understand why we have these categories, as someone who edits a lot about crime. How defining are the individual stages of the criminal process vs the crime itself? Fugitive/charged/convicted/acquitted of category trees have always annoyed me for this reason. PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:29, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

might be a case of WP:OVERCATEGORIZATION but dont know much about categories Bluethricecreamman (talk) 14:14, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think these are BLP violations under WP:BLPCRIMINAL, which says "Category:Criminals and its subcategories should be added only for an incident that is relevant to the person's notability; the incident was published by reliable third-party sources; the subject was convicted; and the conviction was not overturned on appeal." The word "fugitive" would mean that these people are still living and are accused of a crime but have not been convicted. There was recently a similar discussion on this noticeboard [9] and there is an ongoing CfD that was relisted today for further discussion [10]. – notwally (talk) 23:56, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That was roughly what I had in mind from the removal. Thanks for stating it more eloquently and with proper links supporting. Andre🚐 00:01, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that Gallant has been charged. I think (but I'm not sure) that he would only be charged once arrested. In any case, a more bland category name that is 100% true and relevant to notability would be something like "Persons subject to an International Criminal Court arrest warrant". If such a category existed, I can't think of any reason to not include him. Zero^talk 01:40, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why would that not also fail the provision in BLPCRIME mentioned above? It's related to crime. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:58, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, how is this arrest warrant relevant to his notability? Isn't he notable fully without that fact for several other things? Regardless of what happens with his status as having had a warrant issued, he was notable fully as an Israeli military man, politician and minister, and I don't see the warrant is a relevant thing to his notability but simply a recent news fact that involves him. Unless "relevant to notability" is intended to mean anything that might be part of his biography, if it were written today, this would occupy a small portion of it, right? Andre🚐 02:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

People can be notable for multiple reasons. Of course he was already notable enough for an article, but now he is a bit more notable. BLPCRIME doesn't exclude it, since he is a public figure and the name I suggested does not say that he committed a crime. It only states an objective fact. An ICC warrant puts him in a very exclusive club and I don't see why there shouldn't be a category for that club. We don't omit scientists from the Nobel Prize winners category if they were already famous before winning the prize. Zero^talk 04:14, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, but the existing "fugitive" categories being discussed, unlike winning a Nobel Prize, are subcategories of "Category:People associated with crime." and of "Category:Suspected criminals," and "Category:Fugitives" is a subcategory of "Criminals by status" which indeed is under "Criminals." Now, the BLP text above mentions Criminals and its subcategories, so it seems like a matter for interpretation whether the caveat applies that they must have been convicted to include the categories. It would seem to say though that these fugitive categories on this basis should not be included. Andre🚐 04:27, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A "convicted fugitives" category would presumably be fine under WP:BLPCRIMINAL, but not any categories that contain living people and allege criminal conduct without a conviction. – notwally (talk) 00:37, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Categories aside we also have List of fugitives from justice who disappeared. The title seems sorta odd since it includes people like Febri Irwansyah Djatmiko who's location seems to have been known even when they were fugitives and who might still be somewhat easily findable but are protected by the lack of an extradition treaty between where they are and the jurisdiction seeking them. Heck I just noticed it even includes Abu Mohammad al-Julani who recently isn't exactly low profile, and who even did a CNN interview. Nil Einne (talk) 13:28, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If we are going to contend that this is a BLP violation then we should be consistent. Is Sean Combs sexual misconduct allegations a BLP violation? It's got lots of controversial categories for what is technically an article about unproven accusations against a BLP. Example [[Category:Sexual abuse cover-ups]], [[Category:Sex trafficking]] and [[Category:Rape in the United States]] I would suggest a famous politician who is one of the leaders of his country is at least as much a public person as a music producer. I would likewise suggest that accusations of war crimes are even more severe than accusations of systematic sexual assault. So what is the consistent Wikipedia policy here? Should we be deleting the Sean Combs article as a BLP violation? Should we be deleting categories that, while accurate, might lead people to believe a person subject to unproven crminal accusations is guilty? Or should we also maintain the "accusation" categories on Gallant? Simonm223 (talk) 13:42, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd favor removing the categories from the Sean Combs article. Nobody is advocating deleting either article. Andre🚐 13:44, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd agree with removing the categories from the article. Covering alleged crimes by living people is permissible in articles, but WP:BLPCRIMINAL puts an absolute bar on those types of categories being used. – notwally (talk) 18:31, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So wouldn't the WP:BOLD action be to delete all "accused of" categories? Simonm223 (talk) 19:02, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like just removing the "accused of" categories from Gallant while leaving them established is inviting a double-standard. Simonm223 (talk) 19:03, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that BLPCRIME wise its kosher because saying someone is a fugitive from justice is different than saying they're guilty... The war criminal category though should be reserved for those with a conviction. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:14, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "fugitive" categories are a subcategory of Category:Criminals (because they are by definition alleging criminal conduct), and therefore should not contain any living people pursuant to WP:BLPCRIMINAL. The requirements at WP:BLPCRIME are separate considerations for content in articles, but WP:BLPCRIMINAL has an absolute bar on the use of categories in these circumstances. – notwally (talk) 20:07, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then remove Category:Criminals... You're literally proposing the opposite of what we're supposed to do. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:34, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, yeah, I mean, we could recategorize the fugitive categories to not be under "Criminals" and maybe we should do that anyway. I confess I do not know if this requires some kind of requested move process or is a bold type of move. However, while we could look into that anyway, or Puffy or whatnot (Wikipedia doesn't demand that Puffy be treated the same as Gallant, and I don't have much interest in editing him, but that shouldn't stop anyone from doing that and maybe someone should), I think keeping the "fugitives" category on the Gallant page is counter to the spirit of BLP even if we make it policy-abiding by divorcing it from the "criminal" tree. Categories are supposed to be accurate and neutral. A certain POV is that Israel isn't a signatory to the ICC and didn't sign the Rome Statute, AFAIK, and while CAIR is calling Yoav Gallant a fugitive and war criminal, that doesn't seem to be the most accurate or common description in reliable sources, and might not be a neutral description of the situation. It's also misleading under the plain meaning of "fugitive" which would imply that he's fleeing justice, as opposed to simply not being extradited by his own government, or I guess, just showing up somewhere that would arrest him, both of which seem pretty unlikely to occur. But a naive reader could assume that means he was convicted of a crime or is somehow on the lam. Andre🚐 04:16, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have added Category:Legal procedure. You're supposed to voluntarily surrender to the court. Someone who doesn't turn themselves in to the court is a fugitive from justice, that is within the plain meaning of the term. Gallant is "on the lam from the law" (you would have to be incredibly naive to believe otherwise). Note that this isn't an endorsement of the court or a particular form of justice. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:25, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ruth Kearney

Hi, a single-purpose editor @Rataway: is persistently adding an unsourced date of birth despite four warnings on their talk page User talk:Rataway and has ignored an article talk page discussion Talk:Ruth Kearney. Previously an ip was adding the same unreferenced information which was probably the same user. There was previously a different date referenced to my family past.co uk which I removed because it is an unreliable source, regards Atlantic306 (talk) 00:13, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Frank Pando

I saw this nominated for deletion, but denied it because the only stated reason was a request by the subject himself. The subject is a notable character actor and the uncle of the Wikipedian who nominated the article for deletion. I think editing the article judiciously is a better outcome, especially considering the circumstances. I notified the editor in their talk page that posting this matter here was an option. Bearian (talk) 09:34, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If someone else feels the article warrants deletion, per WP:BLPREQDEL the subject's preference should be considered in a borderline case. Nil Einne (talk) 13:19, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How to delete a BLP-violating redirect?

I moved the newly created article "Murder of Elianne Andam" to "Death of Elianne Andam" as there has not been a murder conviction, as to assert that there has been a murder without a conviction contravenes WP:BLPCRIME. I then blanked the resulting redirect ("Murder of Elianne Andam") and tagged it for speedy deletion. However, SilverLocust then reverted my change, saying Not eligible for WP:G7. "For redirects created as a result of a page move, the mover must also have been the only substantive contributor to the pages before the move.".

So my question is, how do we get such inappropriate pages removed speedily? -- DeFacto (talk). 14:24, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The most relevant CSD criterion I can find seems to be WP:G10, which references WP:BLPDEL. If that doesn't apply, then I think WP:RFD is the next best option. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:34, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I do not actually think it is clear cut that a redirect called "Murder of X" violates WP:BLPCRIME: the redirect does not accuse a particular living person of committing a crime, and BLPCRIME does not forbid doing so, merely requires that we "seriously consider" not doing so. In this specific case the article not only says that someone is being tried for the murder, it names them despite the fact that they have not been convicted; it's seems to me hard to defend a position that saying that Andam was murdered is a BLP violation when we are including the name of her killer and the fact that he is on trial for murder in the article. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:44, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there is plenty else wrong with the article, but I don't think that exempts it from BLPCRIME. There is an ongoing trial, yes, but we don't know what the outcome will be, and we certainly cannot assume that there will be a guilty verdict. I'll try a G10, and see what happens with that. -- DeFacto (talk). 14:50, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a very admin-answer, but I'm a firm believer that WP:BLPDEL is competent here. That I've done. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 14:55, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Zzuuzz, perfect - thank you. -- DeFacto (talk). 15:07, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Zzuuzz: These tend to be kept at RfD, including a nomination by OP: Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 September 28#Murder of Matiu Ratana. A non-neutral redirect (WP:RNEUTRAL), unlike an article title, is not in wikivoice and doesn't imply Wikipedia is asserting that this was a murder. All it means is that "murder of ___" is a valid search term/in use in sources and refers to this subject. These should not be speedy deleted on that basis. SilverLocust 💬 10:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate the example. This case is somewhat lower profile, the article under much less scrutiny, the suspect prominently named, but to mainly factor in, it was recently created 'peak-trial' where the murder charge is being hotly contested. The previous discussion was a little bit borderline, IMO, with WP:RNEUTRAL offered as the supporting guideline, however, I don't think that guideline and its mentions of 'non-neutral' trumps the BLP policy and legal aspects here. But let me add that if someone wants to recreate the redirect then I won't be speedy deleting it again. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 12:58, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the more I look at the article the worse it seems. I might have a go at making it less bad... Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 15:01, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this redirect violates BLP - it's a reasonable search term, and when it comes to what people actually say, they call many many many killings murder without a conviction, therefore it is a reasonable search term. COMMONNAME trumps the killings flowchart for naming, and with a redirect especially that is fine. However I don't think this is even notable. PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:00, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, per the flowchart, "death" would be the wrong title if it is notable. "Killing" is for homicide without a conviction. PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that 'Killing of..' would be the more usual title at this time. Just to mention here, that the article is currently up for WP:PROD deletion.. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 12:58, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yang Tengbo

Article on Yang Tengbo a Chinese businessman recently accused of being a spy in the British press has just been created. It seems like a WP:BLP1E that is only notable for his relationship with Prince Andrew. In my opinion Tengbo is worth covering in Andrew's article and Chinese_intelligence_activity_abroad#United_Kingdom (where it is already covered). Wanted to get second opinions before I created an AfD. Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:51, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I do not think that Tengbo is notable enough for an article. The subject is only somewhat notable by means of association with Prince Andrew. But they remain a low-profile individual, only receiving media coverage due to a single event. So, I would personally support deletion. Svenska356 (talk) 19:33, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are media interviews which predate [11] the reporting about Prince Andrew, so they are unambiguously *not* a low-profile individual per WP:LOWPROFILE. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 06:40, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Horse Eye's Back Does the subject really satisfy the notability criteria though? Svenska356 (talk) 11:11, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Who knows... Probably, but either way they definitely aren't a low-profile individual. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:43, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prince Gharios El Chemor of Ghassan Al-Numan VIII

In July there was a discussion at AfD for a BLP on "Prince" Gharios El Chemor of Ghassan Al-Numan VIII. The AfD discussion was swarmed by SPAs and a few of them were blocked. What didn't come up in that discussion was the fact the subject had a previously deleted article from 2010. That discussion has been blanked as a courtesy, so I can't see if he had any previous articles before that one.

The "Prince Gharios El Chemor of Ghassan Al-Numan VIII" article was clearly titled that to circumvent the original article being deleted.

I'm wondering if there's a way to link these discussions? I've looked around a bit and apparently you can salt topics? Perhaps that's needed here before it's re-created with yet another iteration of his "title". --Gym Samba (talk) 19:38, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can place Template:Old AfD list in the second AfD. I would oppose salting, though. If he's come up with a different version of his name once, he'll do it twice. See also WP:NOSALT. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|🤷) 19:48, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Tamzin: Good to know about the Old AfD template! I added that to the most recent AfD. That's interesting about evading the salting. With a "royal" article, even if it's a fake title, there are endless combinations of his name that can be re-created.

Is there a way to see the original AfD that was blanked as a courtesy to see if there are other old AfDs on the subject? Gym Samba (talk) 19:55, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The original AfD can still be viewed in the page history. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|🤷) 20:01, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Found it! Thank you! Is the blanking so it just doesn't show up in search engines if people can read it in the page history anyway? --20:08, 16 December 2024 (UTC) Gym Samba (talk) 20:08, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The biography of Sall Grover is almost entirely dedicated to the legal case Tickle v Giggle, and basically almost all coverage of her as far as I can tell is in relation to this court case. The court case was recently spun out into its own article, and discussion is ongoing as to whether this individual warrants a standalone biography, see Talk:Sall_Grover#Topic_of_page. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:54, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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