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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Seraphimblade Talk to me 01:24, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Patrick McKee

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Patrick McKee (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Elected at a local level only, so does not satisfy WP:POLITICIAN. I don't think he falls under, "Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage", as those cited have been around the by-election or Renua, not McKee himself per se. Links to this page include a television series that included a writer that is not this McKee, and a page that incorrectly notes him as a TD. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 13:21, 8 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 13:21, 8 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 13:21, 8 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Non notable, surprised this one evaded capture for this long! ser! (chat to me). 22:06, 8 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Notable as one of Ireland's few openly LGBT politicians, including being one of the first openly gay councillors, and one of the first openly gay Fianna Fail representatives. --GeneralBelly (talk) 00:06, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Agree with the nominator that while there is some local coverage, fails WP:POLITICIAN and not all the sources are actually this Patrick McKee. Redoryxx (talk) 17:38, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. County council is not a level of office that guarantees inclusion in Wikipedia, people don't get articles just for being candidates in by-elections they did not win either, and the depth of sourcing here is not sufficient to suggest that he should be seen as markedly more notable than the norm for either of those things. I really don't see how being an openly gay county councillor can make a person special just because he's gay, in a country that's already had an openly gay Taoiseach (and doesn't have any particularly galling shortage of people already filed in Category:LGBT politicians from Ireland, either.) Bearcat (talk) 08:13, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment:As I have mentioned below, it is misleading to frame the existence of a gay Taoiseach here, as McKee was elected 6 years before Varadkar came out while serving as Minister for Health, and when he was already an established politician. Smirkybec (talk) 19:42, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Which is irrelevant, because the timing of when one person did or didn't come out relative to some other person coming out has nothing to do with anything. The claim I was responding to was that Ireland has so few openly gay politicians that his sexuality automatically makes him important in its own right, which obviously isn't true. When Leo Varadkar did or didn't come out has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether Patrick McKee clears a Wikipedia notability criterion or not — the mere fact that Leo Varadkar did come out at all puts the lie to the idea that Ireland lacks for openly gay politicians, and his relevance to the matter ends there. Bearcat (talk) 16:25, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • It is you who brought up the chronology, in (your italicisation) "already had an openly gay Taoiseach". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:55, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
          • The chronology of it all is utterly orthogonal to the actual point of what I was saying. It's not a question of who did or didn't come before or after who else — the claim was that being an openly gay county councillor should make him special because openly gay Irish politicians are virtually nonexistent otherwise, which is very obviously not true. Bearcat (talk) 22:03, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • "6 years" appears to be inaccurate. According to their respective articles, McKee came out in 2011 but was elected to his only office in May 2014. Varadkar, who was already in office, came out in January 2015. That's an eight-month gap, not six years. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 15:06, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep McKee is notable for his status as an openly gay candidate since 2011 - especially when running within very conservative circles, as he has continued to do. Most other LGBT politicians that are in Category:LGBT politicians from Ireland are more liberal politicans, so McKee is relatively unusual for his political alignment given that he is a gay man. Varadkar did not come out until 2015, and only after being an established and elected politician. A bit of work on it would elevate the article very easily, as it just suffering from a little lack of input in the references since 2016. Smirkybec (talk) 19:42, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Our notability criteria for politicians do not include "the relationship between his sexuality and his ideological beliefs is a bit different than people might expect", and the question of whether a gay politician came out before or after launching his political career also isn't relevant to anything. If a person doesn't pass NPOL, then he isn't exempted from having to pass NPOL just because he's a gay conservative instead of a gay liberal, or because he came out earlier in his career than some other person. Either he passes NPOL or he doesn't, the end. Bearcat (talk) 16:21, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep WP:POLITICIAN is irrelevant, as WP:GNG is met. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:58, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • GNG is not automatically passed by just every county councillor who can show a handful of run of the mill local coverage in his local media — every county councillor in every county everywhere can always show that, so our established consensus that county councillors are not inherently notable enough for inclusion would be meaningless if every county councillor could always exempt themselves from it. GNG is not, and never has been, just "count the footnotes and keep anybody who surpasses an arbitrary number"; it tests the sources for their depth, their range and the context of what they're covering the person for, and discounts some sources as contributing much less toward a GNG pass as others. Campaign coverage, for example, does not necessarily help to build the permanent notability of a non-winning Dail candidate; local interest coverage in the context of serving as a county council does not necessarily help to build the permanent notability of a county councillor; and on and so forth. The notability test a county councillor has to pass is not just "he's met or surpassed two footnotes"; it is "he has so much, much more, wider and deeper coverage than every other county councillor also gets that he's got a credible claim to being special", and the depth and volume of coverage here isn't passing that bar. Bearcat (talk) 16:21, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • "GNG is not automatically passed by just every county councillor..." Indeed it isn't. Would you like to show me where I said it was? As for "local coverage in his local media", you do know Ireland is a country? Its newspapers are national newspapers, as has already been pointed out above. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:44, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Question for @Bearcat: which sources did you identify as local media? I can only see three of the 17 sources are local sources, two from KCLR 96FM and one from Kilkenny People. John Cummings (talk) 09:42, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment on national sources, these are for most part references to the fact of his candidacy, including defaced posters, or the fact that he joined a new party. The articles are more about the election or the party than McKee. It's in the nature of a new party that defections even at a local council level get national coverage, but that doesn't add notability to McKee himself in this instance. The cited references also include one to the excellent Irish Election Literature site, which hosts leaflets from candidates at all levels, regardless of their notability. —Iveagh Gardens (talk) 18:38, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and suggest the fact he's one of Ireland's few openly LGBT politicians be more clearly described in the first paragraph as its part of what makes him notable. John Cummings (talk) 13:28, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete politician is not met, and the coverage is not really in depth enough to pass any reasonable consideration of GNG.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:23, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Nosebagbear (talk) 13:42, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Non notable politician. Spleodrach (talk) 16:04, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The justification for maintaining the page seems to be based on McKee having been notable as an LGBT councillor, as he was elected in 2014, as against Varadkar who came out as a gay TD and minister in 2015. But in 2011, John Lyons and John Halligan were elected to Dáil, Buttimer came out in 2012, Cian O'Callaghan had been elected in 2009 at a council level. Not to mention the Seanad, whether Norris, O'Gorman and Zappone. Being elected as openly gay in 2014 is not enough to qualify them as notable. If someone had been the first LGBT politician in Ireland, but had only been elected at a council level, they probably would be notable. That is not the case here. —Iveagh Gardens (talk) 17:26, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Currently heading towards no consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 01:34, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per information provided by Iveagh Gardens. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 15:08, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - a Google News search for "Patrick McKee Fianna Fail" and "Patrick McKee Renue" shows sufficient coverage in national news sources to be able to write an article. Not all of it is positive, as well Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:22, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep agree per Ritchie333 - I did a quick search, and it looks like there are a number of sources supporting the subject is notable. VocalIndia (talk) 06:00, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I don't have any stronger feelings on McKee than two other local politicians I tagged for deletion around the same time, where there was consensus to delete. But as discussion has continued, I might respond to the various arguments for rentention. The article was created in 2015, before he was as a by-election candidate. Running for election to a national office doesn't make him notable. By-election candidates receive disproportionate notice, because they are held on their own, the success of parties is taken to mean something for general popularity, and all sorts of other reasons. But it doesn't make the candidates notable for WP:GNG purposes.
McKee has also received coverage because he switched parties from FF to Renua, and then re-ratted back to FF later, to borrow the Churchillian phrase. But lots of local politicians do that over a given five-year period. McKee wasn't the only sitting councillor to move to Renua, and get coverage for doing so, but other councillors who joined Renua like James Charity or Keith Redmond aren't considered notable. A lot of councillors left SF during the same five-year term that McKee served, and if we went through them. Newspapers cover these stories, not because the councillors are themselves notable, but because it's a story about the national parties.
Being a gay councillor doesn't make him notable given that he was elected in 2014. I made this point above, but to consolidate, with three gay TDs in 2014, it wasn't a notable event that there was a gay councillor elected that year. The most notable local authority achievement had been reached in 2012, when Cian O'Callaghan became Cathaoirleach of Fingal County Council. Malcolm Byrne was elected as a gay Fianna Fáil councillor in 2009 in Wexford, Tiernan Brady for the town council in Bundoran in 1999, so McKee isn't notable even for his politics or being in a rural area. The non-notability of the event is indicated by the fact that the page wasn't created in 2014 on his election as a gay councillor, but in 2015, on his candidacy in a by-election.
In terms of further support for keeping, there was a reference to an article where Yes Kilkenny was used as a front for McKee's campaign. A dodgy electioneering practice doesn't make someone notable. If it merits mention at all on WP, maybe on the Renua page?
I'll leave it at that. It seems to me to be a case of coverage of multiple non-notable events leading to perceived notability. If the closer moves to keep, fair enough, I've made my case. –Iveagh Gardens (talk) 11:17, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Very long comment, what you want to pointing out? WP:IDONTLIKE??????? VocalIndia (talk) 12:34, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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