Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of songs about Portland, Oregon

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. w/o prejudice to future discussions (as postdif describes) about refactoring to Oregon more generally j⚛e decker ^talk 15:08, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

List of songs about Portland, Oregon

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Unsourced trivia extravaganza. Portland is swell and all, by why not "List of songs about drinking" or "List of songs mentioning tractors"??? Carrite (talk) 05:56, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. This is pure unsubstantiated original research. The only blue link relates to a media epithet and an event that happened somewhere in the air between Portland and Seattle. Portland might be the greatest city in the world, but this list is letting the side down. --Richhoncho (talk) 08:36, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 11:11, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Oregon-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 11:11, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 11:12, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Since only one song has a WP article this does not serve the usual function of a WP list. If a secondary source had mentioned that Portland had been the topic or setting of a number of songs that fact could be mentioned in Portland, Oregon itself. I love Portland too and vacationed there last summer. Kitfoxxe (talk) 13:25, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Seattle is about the borderline IMO. At least List of songs about Seattle has song articles to link to. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:31, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I have just made a bunch of edits to upgrade the list. Per WP:LISTN, this topic is discussed as a group by reliable sources:
- Parks, Casey. Portland songs: What's your favorite track about the Rose City?, The Oregonian (March 6, 2014).
- Rosenberg, Jeff. “The Thorn Festival Hit Parade”, Willamette Week (June 2, 2004).
- Kearney, Meghan. "Every town is all the same when you've left your heart in the Portland Rain: Representations of Portland place and local identity in Portland popular lyrics" (2013). Dissertations and Theses. Paper 1489, Portland State University.

Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:03, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Anythingyouwant:. Sorry, but I can't see what you have done that helps your cause. You have blue linked the songs to the albums which is misleading and you have confirmed that many of the songs are listed in an article - not that the song is actually about Portland. We are now left with a list of word association games with the word "Portland" --Richhoncho (talk) 08:55, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It seems unobjectionable to pipe link a song to the album article that mentions it, at least until there's a separate article about the song (which there already is for at least one). I don't claim that a pipe link proves the song is appropriate for the list. Rather, the footnotes should do that. Are you saying that all of the present footnotes are inadequate for that purpose?Anythingyouwant (talk) 11:50, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Anythingyouwant:. If I see a blue-linked song I am expecting to be taken to that song article with an explanation of what reference to Portland is contained in that song. I do not expect to ask myself, “What am I doing here” when I find myself at an album which probably does not mention Portland at all.

The references you have found shows that the song has been contained in a “List of songs about Portland, Oregon,” not why it should be included in such a list. Your references are good enough for “List of lists about Portland, Oregon” but not to claim any definition that a non-notable (none of them have articles) song is ABOUT Portland.

I Left My Heart in San Francisco is NOT about San Francisco, it’s about the singer’s heart.

I checked, I've Been Everywhere does not mention Portland. But it clearly shows that adding a song into a list just because a town is mentioned is not beneficial to an encyclopedia. --Richhoncho (talk) 14:01, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, "I Left My Heart in San Francisco" is listed at List of songs about California, and I have no problem with that. I don't know why you mention "I've Been Everywhere" which is not on the list of Portland songs. I agree with you that mere mention of Portland is not enough for a song to belong on this list, as I already indicated at the List's talk page. Anyway, how about if we kick back and see what others think? Cheers.Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:21, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Anythingyouwant's work and rationale. --Arxiloxos (talk) 21:45, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as it passes WP:LISTN. Songs about drinking is too easy and we already have plenty of coverage. Tractors are more challenging but we could make a start with "She Thinks My Tractor's Sexy". Andrew D. (talk) 22:49, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Andrew Davidson:. D'oh. That belongs in List of songs using tractors as euphemism. It is not about a tractor. --Richhoncho (talk) 08:40, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Rich. See also "She Cranks my Tractor".Anythingyouwant (talk) 13:38, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, right? How is this any different from List of books about the Napoleonic Wars or List of films about outer space? Also Anythingyouwant added a source that shows someone else made a list like this and published it. Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:21, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

One is a list of non-fiction books specifically about the Napoleonic wars, what we are discussing here a list containing a bunch of songs that mention a place, whether in reality, or in fiction, or as metaphor, or as allegory, or merely in passing or for whatever other reason that is never quite clear because we have no references. Quite a difference, right? The "Outer Space" list suffers similar problems, although not quite as pronounced. --Richhoncho (talk) 21:21, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've added this at the top of the list: "This is a list of songs that are notably about Portland (though they may additionally be notable for other reasons), and therefore this list does not include notable songs that merely mention Portland in passing."Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:48, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

One of the quotes in the article is "every town is all the same/when you've left your heart in the Portland rain" That is not notable, not *about* Portland and not referenced. Just from that fragment you could include the song in Lists about hearts, rain, towns... I repeat because a word is used does not make it defining, nor about. What you should have written is "below is a list of songs which have appeared on lists of songs purporting to be about Portland..." --Richhoncho (talk) 09:25, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't that quote referenced to a thesis available online from Portland State University? It's in the title of the thesis, as well as discussed within the thesis.Anythingyouwant (talk) 09:34, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Herein lies the confusion, I am not arguing whether the thesis is notable, if it is, it does not follow that all it's contents (i.e. songs) are notable. --Richhoncho (talk) 10:33, 8 April 2015 (UTC) PS. Might be worth checking WP:RS at this stage. --Richhoncho (talk) 10:33, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like a reliable source to me, at least for purposes of identifying relevant source material. "Although the thesis is not required to show original results, it must reveal independent investigation, including the knowledge and application of the accepted methods of scholarship and research methodology. The thesis represents the independent work of the student and must be developed under the direction of the thesis adviser. The thesis committee must be approved by the Office of Graduate Studies using the GO-16M form in advance of the thesis defense."Anythingyouwant (talk) 11:12, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, it's standard to index cultural works by subject or theme, and there's no real argument as to whether there are songs that are verifiably and substantively about Portland (i.e., that more than merely mention it). Sometimes this will be evident from the lyrics themselves and require no interpretation, other instances we should expect secondary sources to confirm, but disputes over individual entries never invalidates the very idea of having a list unless the organizing concept itself is unworkable (which ["song" + "about Portland"] is not). And provided the list is limited to 1) songs that are independently notable, 2) songs that are part of notable albums, or 3) songs by notable recording artists, there's no genuine concern of this getting indiscriminate or untethered to notability. If editorial judgment determines that there aren't very many songs about Portland that satisfy any of those criteria, then retitle and expand to List of songs about Oregon, which should exist regardless of whether this city merits a standalone list. postdlf (talk) 17:00, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep a standard type of article, and justified in the same way as similar articles about large cities, or at least large cities with enough of a music presence to provide enough content. DGG (at NYPL) -- reply here 20:02, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.