Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Crystal cake

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. No agreement for deletion. Note that this doesn't rule out potential merging. – Juliancolton | ^Talk 03:45, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Crystal cake

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Article cites no reliable sources, and a cursory search of the interwebs yields little to nothing that could be used. If this is a real thing, then author could start by merging with Chinese desserts or Chinese bakery products. TheBlueCanoe 14:42, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:18, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:19, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

merge merge with Mooncake; I think the Chinese for crystal cake is '水晶饼' and yields many more results. The chinese Mooncake article references a particular brand of Crystal cakes, so merging this into Mooncake may make most sense but don't delete the redirect. I also found Snow skin mooncake which may or may not be the same thing. @Benlisquare: asking a Chinese speaker to chime in and assist here.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:37, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There's plenty of google hits, though I'm not entirely sure exactly how "famous" this dessert actually is, since that's a rather subjective measurement. One thing to mention, though, is that the Chinese Wikipedia mentions "水晶饼" within the lead paragraph of zh:月饼 (Mooncake). I don't think there's any relevance with the Hong Kong-origin Snow skin mooncake though, since the Chinese Wikipedia claims that this particular cake comes from Shaanxi Province, and a quick google search shows that this cake is associated with the city of Weinan. The current problem with the article is that it doesn't have any reliable sources to demonstrate notability. For now, it could be redirected to Chinese desserts or Mooncake, and when there is enough sourced information, the content can be split out again. That is, unless, someone manages to save the article prior to the AfD closure by expanding/improving it. --benlisquare_T•C•E 20:14, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Would you mind adding a RS to state that (1) Crystal cake is a sort of moon cake and (2) It is from Weihan? - even if it's in Chinese? We can use this RS when we then merge it within the Mooncake article. I changed my !vote to Merge above, but we just need one source that describes what these things are.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:17, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, here's a RS that I've stumbled across that describes it in a bit of detail, but it doesn't specifically use the term "mooncake". Translation: "Crystal cake is a kind of pastry dessert; because the stuffing has a shiny appearance, it is referred to as "crystal" cake. The cake is made with plentiful stuffing, a moist texture, contoured stuctures, does not feel greasy despite being quite oily, and a deep sweet taste, in addition to having a strong rose and tangerine fragrance... The most famous crystal cakes were made by De Maogong of Xi'an city as a tribute towards the late Empress Cixi, and is a special food of Shaanxi Province known nationwide. During festive holidays, large numbers of people buy these cakes, not only to eat, but to also send boxes to friends and relatives as gifts." --benlisquare_T•C•E 17:44, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here's another article, this time from Sina.com (major Chinese-language news and entertainment portal, think similar to Yahoo.com or MSN.com), which discusses the origins of the cake. Again, there is zero mention of "mooncake". Translation: "A famous dessert of Shaanxi, the crystal cake is said to have a thousand year history. Legend goes that crystal cake was born in the city of Weinan during the Northern Song Dynasty, and is related to prime minister Kou Zhun. During the third year of the Jingde Era (I honestly have no idea what this is in the Gregorian calendar, the old Chinese year system is like Greek to me), as Kou Zhun returned to his home, he visited a temple along the way, which was in the midst of contructing a pagoda tower. He donated silver coins to the temple master, and so a monk and a group of local people... welcomed him with a pastry cake.". --benlisquare_T•C•E 17:55, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Juliancolton | ^Talk 02:12, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

delete Either this is something incredibly uncommon, or it is normally referred to by a different name in English. Mangoe (talk) 03:34, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Easy Keep - Clearly passes WP:GNG per coverage in Chinese-language news sources. Source examples include (with article titles acquired from Google Translate, websites linked below are translated into English using Google Translate):

See this link for more sources, which abound. Also, thanks to User:Obiwankenobi above for providing the Chinese-language text. Northamerica1000^(talk) 08:38, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously no Chinese language source is adequate for the claim that it is called "crystal cake" in English! Mangoe (talk) 10:34, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mangoe: Please review WP:GNG, where it states: "Sources do not have to be available online and do not have to be in English." Northamerica1000^(talk) 11:11, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsense. It's obvious that a source that does not use English words is not a source at all for what anything is called in English. The guideline doesn't require anyone to accept an irrelevant source. Mangoe (talk) 12:26, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

this is an AFD, not a rename discussion, so you are confusing this with what to call the article, instead of 'is this topic of note' - in cases where we don't have an obvious English name a straight translation is sufficient.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:54, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with User:Obiwankenobi here. Also, the sources I provided are relevant, reliable sources. See also: WP:N. Northamerica1000^(talk) 13:44, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Mangoe, I think you are confused as to what reliable sources are for. If you have concerns with the article title, feel free to start a RfC or requested move. This AfD deals with whether or not the article content is notable enough to warrant deletion. --benlisquare_T•C•E 17:35, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sources need to be be reliable "for" the purposes of justifying the statements made in the article, and in our system, chief of those statements is what the subject of the article is called! And if you are giving the article an English name, then you need a source which gives it that English name. If none of the sources uses that name, or indeed, any name at all that is used in English sources, then there is no basis for any article in English. We are not here to make up a name for it! Come up with any source which establishes some name used in English for the thing, and it can have an article. If you can't, then you're just making it up. I cannot suggest renaming the article because there's nothing to rename it to, and I cannot accept it having its existing name because there's no evidence that this name is correct. the only remaining alternative is deletion. Mangoe (talk) 17:52, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alright then. Move the article to Shuijingbing (水晶饼) or Shuijing cake, problem solved. No qualms there, I'd hope? This name is justified by reliable sources, and the standard norm on Wikipedia is to use the Hanyu Pinyin romanization system (per WP:NC-ZH and WP:MOS-ZH) when rendering Chinese characters into the Roman alphabet. I strongly disagree with your statement "there is no basis for any article in English", because there is no Wikipedia policy which rectifies what you have said, and such a statement is also dangerously Anglocentric and further worsens the state of systemic bias on Wikipedia. There are many articles on Wikipedia relating to foreign concepts which have zero English-language reliable sources, because WP:NONENG specifically permits the use of non-English reliable sources in the event that English sources are unavailable or lacking in information, and that there are no policies which prohibit the existence of these articles. --benlisquare_T•C•E 17:57, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep, otherwise merge - there are enough reliable sources to establish notability. Currently very little article content is available; either this page can be kept as a stub, and eventually expanded whenever someone is bold enough to do so, or it can be merged into Chinese desserts until the content grows large enough to warrant splitting off into a separate article again. I'll leave that decision up to the rest of the community. --benlisquare_T•C•E 18:12, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Easily passes GNG and is distinct. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:22, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.