User talk:Kashmiri/Archive 3

This is an archive of past discussions about User:Kashmiri. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

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Archive 8

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Shelby Charter TWP

I don’t know how to direct message you, anyways, I try to make changes to the Shelby TWP Wikipedia page and this Wikipedia-bot keeps deleting them. If you could give me some sort of admin privileges for Shelby Charter TWP only, that would be much appreciated, as I live here and a lot of stuff has changed in the past couple years. My older account had around 3,500 edits so I’m familiar with the UI but I lost the email and password associated with that account so I my modifications end up getting removed immediately, even when I’m correcting typos. Any correspondence would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Chuckski IV Chuckski4 (talk) 15:59, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@Chuckski4: Perhaps because your account is less than 72 hours old and/or the edits look suspicious to the bot. I suggest you to wait, do a few practice edits in WP:SANDBOX, and/or do a few minor edits to other articles (like, correcting typos, formatting errors, etc.). This often helps. — kashmīrī ^TALK 16:05, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@Kashmiri: Thanks for the tip, makes a lot of sense, will do. Wikipedia is not as it was 10 years ago probably for the best, lol. Thanks again. -Chuckie IV

RfArb stuff

No problem. Suggest you just move your comments, and I will fix the rest. Coretheapple (talk) 14:22, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

@Coretheapple: Done. Can you fix my earlier comments please? Thanks, — kashmīrī ^TALK 19:11, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Done. I'm with you on Wilby, though I think a few of his adds might be worth keeping. Coretheapple (talk) 19:52, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Administrators' noticeboard

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Philip Cross (talk) 20:02, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

hi

hi , i hope you are as well . right im not part of pcloud.com . i use pcloud.com from a years ago to now and i used that as backup service and to be honest they provide better free host more than all sites are mentioned in wikipedia. all websites you mentioned in the article have permium account too . i wonder how you dont know pcloud.com

please read the articles here :

Popular Science: https://www.popsci.com/pcloud-storage

https://www.cloudwards.net/review/pcloud/

https://www.sonntagmorgen.com/pcloud-test/

https://www.trustpilot.com/review/pcloud.com

cheers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramtinataee (talk • contribs) 21:33, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

@Ramtinataee: Hi, this list article requires that all entries are notable = have a corresponding Wikipedia article. Feel free to read this essay. Cheers, — kashmīrī ^TALK 16:43, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Kaifyy

Hello, Thanks for your 'kind'response. The contribution made by me was not intended to be promotional and it was only to inform the readers that something on the subject has been written somewhere. That's all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaifyy (talk • contribs) 17:22, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Hello @Kaifyy:, Wikipedia is not a repository of links and you seem to be the editor-in-chief of the publication you keep adding, hence your edits can well be considered promotional. Please keep in mind that Wikipedia is for English-language readers and listing non-English publications (other than as sources) is pretty much pointless. — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:27, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Date of Indus Valley civilization

The recent archaeological findings of Indus valley civilization both in India and Pakistan such as Mehergarh, Birhana, Kalibangan, Rakrigiri have pushed the date of IVC much older to 7000 BCE. The early mature phase started at 5500 BCE- 3500 BCE, so it needs to be updated in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanjoydey33 (talk • contribs) 22:33, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Needs a reliable source. — kashmīrī ^TALK 22:38, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Siddha Yoga

To be continued at Talk:Siddha Yoga#Shiva statue

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi, Please discuss why you think Siddha Yoga's teaching is not based on Hinduism. With reliable sources reliable source, it is established in current page that Siddha yoga follows Kashmiri Shaivism based on the teaching of Bhagawan Muktananda. The Siddha Yoga tradition draws its teachings from the yogic philosophy of Vedanta, Kashmir Shaivism, and the Maharashtran poet-saints.^[1] Principal texts from the Vedantic tradition include the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, the Viveka Chudamani of Shankaracharya, and the Yoga Vasistha. Texts from the Kashmir Shaivite tradition include the Shiva Sutras of Vasugupta, the Spanda Karikas of Vasugupta, the Prataybhijnahridayam, and the Vijnana Bhairava. Other texts referred to by Muktananda and Chidvilasananda include Jnaneshwari, the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, the Bhakti Sutras of Narada, the Mahabharata, the Ramayana, and poet saints such as Kabir and Tukaram Maharaj. Without proper sources Reliable source, don't revert this article.Sanjoydey33 (talk) 19:32, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

@Sanjoydey33: Some of Siddha Yoga teachings are based on Hinduism. A lot of SY teachings are based on Kashmir Shaivism which is a philosophy and not a religion. I see that you are trying to stick Hinduism (religion) into everything but please stop, there are valid reasons for not describing anything remotely connected to India or Indian traditions as "Hinduism". — kashmīrī ^TALK 19:54, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

@Kashmiri: I agree with you that anything that originated in India are not automatically related to Hinduism. But, it's ridiculous to say that Kashmiri Shaivism is only a philosophy and not a religion and thus, not related to Hinduism. Let me educate you little bit on Hinduism (based on authentic sources, which is well-established in both western Indology and religious department and also in the Hindu tradition). Hinduism itself has six philosophical schools, two of them are Advaita and Yoga, which Siddha Yoga particularly belong to. In terms of religion, Hinduism has four well-established major denominations (sect): Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism, and Smartism. Kashmiri Shaivism is one of the oldest school of Shaivism founded by Vasugupta (author of Shiva sutras) and later preached by Abhinavagupta. In the official website of Siddha yoga ^[1], they are clearly mentioning their affiliation to Shaivism and thus automatically to Hinduism. In brief, Hinduism is both a religion and philosophy similar to Buddhism. Therefore, there are many branches (specifically, six philosophies (Sad Dharshana) and four main sects (Sampradayas) as I mentioned here) within Hinduism and Buddhism. There are thousands of references and books on these topic. So, unless you provide valid reason for saying Kashmiri Shaivism is not part of Hinduism, please stop misrepresenting lot of authentic pages and sources. Sanjoydey33 (talk) 20:18, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

@Sanjoydey33: Your knowledge of Indian philosophy is superficial and, I dare to say, incorrect, and I suggest you refrain from touching any article that has to do with Indian philosophy. (1) Hinduism does not "have" any "six philosphical schools" - three of the six darśanas originated well before Hinduism, and two (Nyaya and Vaisheshika) have absolutely nothing to do with religion. (2) There have been many more schools of philosophy in ancient and medieaval India than the six darshanas. (3) Siddha Yoga is not a branch of Yoga philosophy per se but one of hundreds of mystical traditions; its "Muktananda edition" borrows some general concepts from Kashmir Shaivism (faithfully but superficially - Muktananda was not a philosopher nor did understand Sanskrit well) but is otherwise quite faithful to the traditional South Indian tradition of the Siddhas. (4) Kashmir Shaivism is not "the oldest school of Shaivism"; Shaivist traditions precede Vasugupta by several centuries (e.g., Kapalika). It is also almost purely a school of philosophy (and mystical practice) with almost non-existent elements of organised religion. (5) Your proposition of "four denominations in Hinduism" has no basis in reliable academic sources and is so absurd that I don't feel like commenting further. — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:36, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I've copied this discussion to Talk:Siddha Yoga#Shiva statue; please continue there. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:00, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

^ ^a ^b "The Scriptural Tradition". Retrieved 2009-12-02.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

No subject

Hi why you deleted name of mir sayyid Ali Hamadani, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamadani suffism (talk • contribs) 16:38, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

BLP issues on British politics articles arbitration case opened

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/BLP issues on British politics articles. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/BLP issues on British politics articles/Evidence. Please add your evidence by June 22, 2018, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/BLP issues on British politics articles/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:17, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Arbitration request

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Thanks for helping

It was a pleasant surprise for me to find that you had also edited Saghar Siddiqui while I was away from my computer. I finished it this morning. I do appreciate what you did, though. Ngrewal1 (talk) 16:09, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

@Ngrewal: No probs. Thanks for your kind words. — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:33, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Need clarification.

What made you revert back changes that I made again? I provided citations as well. Adding The Truth (talk) 21:20, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

@Adding The Truth: The quote was not appropriate for Wikipedia. I suggest you read about reliable sources. In short, what some X has said about the article subject is irrelevant, unless this is a renowned expert in the subject. The quote you added was definitlely not a neutral analysis of people for or against Balochistan autonomy/independence. I also suggest you read WP:NPOV. — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:32, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand what was wrong about it. It was claimed by a prominent leader of that particular area and I just added that. What's wrong with it? Isn't this a fact that the leader said that? That person is a renowned expert of Balochistan since he comes from there. Are you kidding me? Adding The Truth (talk) 21:47, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Once again: read this page. — kashmīrī ^TALK 07:46, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: लोलेसरा

Hello Kashmiri. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of लोलेसरा, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: R3 does not apply to redirects from page moves unless that page was also recently created. Use WP:RFD if you want deletion. Thank you. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 15:21, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

@Amorymeltzer: The pages was moved one day after it was created under Devanagari name [1]. It was (and still is) an orphan page and clearly remained under the radar until I spotted it at today's ANI report and subsequent indef of its creator.[2] Considering all of this, as well as because redirects are there to help locate and navigate articles while लोलेसरा is an unlikely typo, and as going through full RfD would be a waste of everyone's time, I still think speedy is the best solution. — kashmīrī ^TALK 16:04, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

I'll grant that four days is near-enough the spirit of "recently created" to be fine, but that was nearly four months ago. As this redirect has now existed for that time, I think WP:RFD is the way to go. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 16:08, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

AFRICA UNITE PARTY

I just discovered you had the africa unite party wiki removed. im not sure why. pleas explain. this looks like malicious activity as this is a registered political party with a history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Earthoceans (talk • contribs) 15:53, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) FYI Kashmiri, this is years old stuff. Home Lander (talk) 16:05, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

@Earthoceans: I could find no sources online to confirm this, and so I determined that the AUP article did not clear WP:NCORP. As you can see, other editors agreed. Deletion of poorly sourced articles and those where the subject does not clear WP:N is a standard procedure on Wikipedia, it is no malice. — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:16, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

1. IT ISNT POORLY SOURCED AT ALL! theres dozens of online sources . I think you cant blame other editors here. This is an insult to our country. The AUP has a history that has been fighting corruption and racism and you have decided to erase it because it wasnt written to your standards. The links attached to it prove that it has been in the media. The tv etc. This is bigotry and racism against african people. We have over 100 000 members. Many other articles are far less sourced. 2. How do we get back the article and do the necessary edits- if they dont satisfy your requirements? 3. This feels like a racist act of bigotry and malicious in intent. Theres no basis for this deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Earthoceans (talk • contribs) 14:33, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

CHECK THIS OUT DUDE....http://www.elections.org.za/content/Parties/Political-party-list/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Earthoceans (talk • contribs) 14:43, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@Earthoceans::

Existence alone in not a sufficient reason for having a Wikipedia article – the subject has to satisfy notability criteria. A deletion discussion took place and the community consensus was that the article should be deleted due to lack of notability.
By writing "we have 100 000 members" you suggest that you have a conflict of interest. You should perhaps stay away from this article.
Accusing a fellow editor of racism is a blockable offence – mind your words or you will be blocked from editing.

Additionally, care to explain how got you claim AUP has "100 000 members" but its website contains virtually no material for party members, last website post was 4 years ago while the party's official address is a PO Box? At the same time, no English-language electronic media have carried a single article mentioning AUP since April 2014? I think I am not the only one here who feels that you are making things up. — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:44, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

I just read through your comments about our party. You are not a south african - but even if you were - I woiuld tell you the same thing- we are a real party registered on march 7 2014. we charged president zuma with theft fraud and corruption and it was our actions that led to his eventual resignation. I apologise for calling you racist- perhaps insensitive is a better word. Ref to the media - we have not been active in the media sense - but ave been conducting our activities outside of south africa - you will hear from us again - when we run in next years elections. Our strategy has been grassroots and for that we dont need press or media. Not yet. But just so that you know... check the french media outlets in morocco- we have purposely boycotted zuma regime for its corruption. if helping to get rid of a dictactor is not notable... i dont know what is... fianlyl, if this is an impartial encyclopia about historical things... check the links... the aup is a part of south africna history and i see this as a biased attempt to erase it.

Speedy deletion converted to PROD: Ƣaznavid dynasty

Hello Kashmiri, and thanks for patrolling new pages! I am just letting you know that I have converted the speedy deletion tag that you placed on Ƣaznavid dynasty to a proposed deletion tag. The speedy deletion criteria are extremely narrow to protect the encyclopedia, and do not fit the page in question. You may wish to review the Criteria for Speedy Deletion before tagging further pages. Thank you. —SerialNumber54129^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 22:36, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

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Suggestions

Saw your post at Talk page for :WP:Edit_Warring. At the article in question, edit war is the least of the problems. There are a whopping four purported RSs. RE the first source see WP:SELFPUB. RE sources 2 and 3, quick skim suggests they are identical text held up as different as though that would give greater weight for assessing WP:NOTABILITY. rE source 4, its not in English, and I don't know if we have guidelines about foreign RSs but it sure doesn't help make the case for WP:NOTABILITY. If these problems have been flagged for several days without meaningful discussion or evidence of efforts to fix them, then I'd just list the article at WP:AFD without more muss or fuss. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:27, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

@NewsAndEventsGuy: Thanks, I also thought about AfD'ing the article but wasn't sure if better sources may exist. I'll wait a few days and then follow your advice. Cheers. — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:49, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Proofreading my recent contribution

Dear Kashmiri First of all, thanks very much for the warm welcome and the list of helpful links you included with your message. I am still finding my way around Wikipedia and there is clearly a lot to learn.

In regard to a potential conflict of interest on my part, I am a member of Healthcare Information for All and its Steering Group. I am not paid to edit the HIFA Wikipedia page and I am the only person who can access the Wikipedia account, 'MartinMCarroll'.

I'd be glad to take you up on your offer to proofread my recent contribution and let me know if it has breached Wikipedia's guidelines. The purpose of it is to create a new section on the HIFA page which lists HIFA's current projects and to explain how they help HIFA to achieve its goals and wider vision: 'a world where every person will have access to the healthcare information they need to protect their own health and the health of others'. From my perspective, it doesn't seek to promote or market HIFA; it's merely for information, including links to the individual projects pages for visitors to the page who wish to find out specific details. I would add that, should page visitors decide to join HIFA following their visit to our page, they can do so free of charge - HIFA does not make any financial gain from it.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give, Kashmiri - I look forward to hearing from you and making any necessary changes to make my contribution ready for publication.

Best wishes Martin Carroll London, UK MartinMCarroll (talk) 09:57, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

About reverting my edit on Lalleswari.

I had mentioned another popular name of Lalleswari as Lalla Yogishwari (“Supreme Mistress of Yoga”). You have misunderstood my edit. The meaning of Lalla Yogiswari is not “Supreme Mistress of Yoga” but the meaning of "Yogiswari" is “Supreme Mistress of Yoga”. The name Lalla Yogiswari consists of two parts - Lalla and Yogiswari. The book 'Autobiography of a Yogi' is a world famous book.Badshah165 (talk) 18:40, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

@Badshah165: In no language yogīśvarī mean "Supreme Mistress of Yoga". Paramahansa Yogananda was not a scholar in either Kashmiri literature or Sanskrit, so his autobiography is not a reliable source for this article. Please take a look at WP:RS. — kashmīrī ^TALK 18:44, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

According to 'Rajapal Hindi Sabdakosh' (Rajpal Hindi Dictionary) (p. 685, ed.1998) (lexicographer; Dr. Hardev Bahri), the meaning of Yogiswar is 'Yogiyon mein sresth ya sarvasresth yogi' or 'one who is the supreme master of yoga'. We can also write the meaning as 'One who is the Supreme Master of Yoga'. 'Yogiswari' is the feminine version of 'Yogiswar'. This view is supported by 'Bangala Bhasar Abhidhaan ( Dictioanary of the Bengali Language) Shishu Sahitya Samsad Pvt Ltd. 32A, APC Road, Kolkata – 700009, Volume 1, p.251. (ed. 1994). Can't we write 'greatest' ('sarvasresth') as 'supreme master' or 'supreme mistress'? Who is 'Yogiswar' or 'Yogiswari'?? It is none other than Lord Shiva and Goddess Parvati. Do you think that persons like Swami Vivekananda/Sri Aurobindo cannot be quoted in Wikipedia???Then perhaps Lalleswari's comments and quotes stand invalid Badshah165 (talk) 16:41, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

@Badshah165: (1) Yogīyõ mẽ śreṣṭh yā sarvaśreṣṭh yogī means "the best one among yogis, or the best (most splendid, etc.) yogi ever", and not "supreme master of yoga". (2) "Mistress" is not feminine of "master" these days other than in a limited number of idioms (see Mistress), so such a translation would be confusing. (3) Most importantly, Yogananda is not a reliable source on how Lalleshwari was called. In fact, his autobiography is hardly a reliable source on anything other than Yogananda's life. So, adding such an alternate name needs a better source. — kashmīrī ^TALK 18:42, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

'Yogiswari' refers to Goddess Parvati [Please refer to 'Bangala Bhasar Abhidhaan (Dictianary of the Bengali Language) Shishu Sahitya Samsad Pvt Ltd. 32A, APC Road, Kolkata – 700009, Volume 1, p.251. (ed. 1994)]. 'Yogiswari' = 'Yoga' + 'Iswari'. 'Iswari' means female master (as per Samsad Bengali to English Dictionary). But Goddess Parvati is not a mere master but master of masters as She is Goddess. It is be understood. Sometimes real meanings are hidden! The pearl is hidden in the oyster!! Yogananda was a Self-Realised human being as per Hinduism. What is known by true yogis with regard to others cannot be comprehended by mere intellect and mind of ordinary human beings. Also we can write greatest master or yogi as supreme master or yogi as God or or Goddess is such a One. With regard to interpretation of Yogananda you may find the following website useful:URL - http://www.yoganandasrf.org/whatothershavesaid/Educators___Scientific_Community.aspx#.W1axwNIza1s If you have doubts with regard to views of Paramhansa Yogananda in his famous book Autobiography of a Yogi' please tell me the portions (with chapter no. and page no.) you have found unreliable. I will try my best to closely examine your view(s) and present my opinion. Badshah165 (talk) 05:10, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

There are four kinds of Yogis (male and female) in the world: 1)Ordinary yogis 2) Master Yogis (Siddhas or Paramhansa or Soham Swami) 3) Incarnations (Supreme Master Yogis) 4)Supreme Master Yogi (God and Goddess in determinate form or Brahaman in Indeterminate form). A true Yogi is one who has attained the state of Savikalpa Samadhi or Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Paramhansa Yogananda may have realised by intuition or in the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi that Lalleswari was an Incarnation of Goddess Paravati. That is why he has used the epithet “Supreme Mistress of Yoga”. Please also remember that he had visited Kashmir (please refer to Chapter No. 21 - 'We Visit Kashmir) Badshah165 (talk) 16:41, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

@Badshah165: I think I do not have much interest in continuing this discussion, sorry. — kashmīrī ^TALK 16:43, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

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Talk page

Hello! Could You please use the talk page. I am open to changes and would be happy if You engaged in a discussion rather than reverting. Edaen (talk) 19:47, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Latin transliterations in the National Anthem of South Ossetia article

Please discuss in talk before removing the Latin transliteration. Thank you. Noaccount2564895 (talk) 13:08, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

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Delhi

Hello. I have reverted your addition of Indic script to the infobox since Template:Infobox settlement being within the scope of WikiProject Cities (as the talk page of the template says) does not mean that that project is the exclusive owner of the template, and that other WikiProjects are barred from making decisions about how it is to be used within the scope of their projects. So yes, WikiProject India can indeed decide that no Indic script is to be used in the infobox (and lead) of articles within their scope. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 10:31, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Name of Lal Shahbaz Qalander

I learnt that the name of Lal Shahbaz Qalander is not Usman Marwandi. It was Shah Hussain but due to the risk of murder his father changed the name to Usman Marwandi. His birth name of Syed Shah Hussain. SyedAbbasHaiderZaidi2009 (talk) 07:06, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

@SyedAbbasHaiderZaidi2009: You need a source for this. Read here: WP:V. Also here: WP:RS. — kashmīrī ^TALK 08:33, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

ARBIPA sanctions alert

This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.

You have recently shown interest in India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect: any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or any page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.

For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.

Kautilya3 (talk) 18:50, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: WP:DTR please. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:00, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Not so. Every editor that edits in the topic area gets the warning, once a year. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:05, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Ah, no worries then. Will archive this anyway. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:11, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

[scriptures-1] "The Scriptural Tradition". Retrieved 2009-12-02.

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