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WikiProject Military history coordinator election

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The Bugle: Issue LXXXXX, September 2013

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The Bugle: Issue XCI, October 2013

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Proposed deletion of Aliya (singer)

The article Aliya (singer) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Unsigned artist, doesn't meet WP:NOTABILITY guidelines

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Nomination of Aliya (singer) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Aliya (singer) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aliya (singer) (2nd nomination) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

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Shemini Atzeret

  1. I appreciate your help and support. This has been far more difficult than I expected.
  2. I demoted your entry to a level 4 header, because I wanted it to appear within the rubric of "Relationship to Sukkot." However, and more importantly, I templated it for a source. Obviously, what you say is not wrong. But unless we source it, it can't stay in if the article is to remain GA. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:58, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

More at 15:15, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm inclined to delete your whole section of Biblical origins. I don't mind changing the next section's title to "Significance and Biblical origins." But in an article where we are already being told there is too much detail here, I'm not sure that talking about atzeret in the context of Shvi'i shel Pesach or Shavuot will be helpful; on the contrary, I'm concerned it will raise more questions than it answers. I do mention the etymology to "stop" in the section entitled Atzeret: A day for assembly—or pause, and I think that covers the ground enough.

Will copy this to Talk:Shemini Atzeret/GA2 as well. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:27, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

November 2013

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  • ] Jewish solar-lunar calendar was fixed, the onset of each new month, known as [[Rosh Chodesh]] (literally: "head/start [of the new] month/[new moon]" were determined by when the [[new moon]] was
  • when the New Month had been confirmed and declared by the Sanhedrin. Thus since there was doubt (the word ''safek'' in Hebrew means "doubt" i.e. "doubt about the day on which the new month was

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S'feika d'yoma

Thanks for this. At one point, someone created yom tov sheni shel galuyot, so these two should probably be merged in one spot or the other. I didn't template it, but maybe you could look into that? Thanks, and Shabbat Shalom. StevenJ81 (talk) 12:42, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

  • (P.S.: I am answering you here but I am also copying this discussion to the talk page at sfeka d'yoma. Let's continue the discussion there.) Hi there Steve, no need to jump to merge them because they work in different ways. Sefeika deyuma is the Halachic reason that people sit in a Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret while Shemini Etzeret itself is NOT a "yom sheni shel galuyot"!! Also, there is a connection between Hoshana Rabba and Shemini Atzeret that is based on sefeika deyuam but has nothing to do with yom sheni shel galuyot!! There is a connection, but sefeika deyuma and yom sheni shel galuyot are not the same thing. Additionally, sefeika deyuma is a problem that starts in Eretz Yisrael because the Sanhedrin is unsure (i.e. it has a safek) when it will sanctify the new moon. If eidim come on day one of the new moon, then day one is Rosh chodesh but if eidim come on day two of the new moon then day two is rosh chodesh and not day one. All the while and prior to eidim coming there remained a sefeika deyuma IN ERETZ YISRAEL itself as to when eidim would come that has NOTHING to do with the galut. Only subsequently when problems arose and it became difficult to inform spread out communities, the sages introduced a fixed calendar that took into account the possibility that rosh chodesh could fall out on either of day one or day tow of when the new moon begins, thus they also introduced the need to observe two days of yom tov outside of Eretz Yisrael and and is how it has has remained (except for Reform). So I would proceed very cautiously before mixing sefeika deyuma with yom tov sheni shel galuyot. Don't jump to fix things before some good discussions. Thanks again. IZAK (talk) 13:41, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

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Naming convention for Hasidic dynasty pages

Hi, a Chinese editor has decided to change the way we identify Hasidic Rebbes who have the same names. Please see discussion at Talk:Yissachar Dov Rokeach I#Page rename. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 23:33, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Eleazar Maccabeus

Greetings, IZAK! You recently moved Eleazar Avaran to Eleazar Maccabeus. I believe your justification is based on a misunderstanding. Eleazar was indeed a Maccabean and could rightly be called Eleazar the Maccabean, ie, a member of the group of brothers originally led by Judas Maccabeus. However, Eleazar's name is not and never was Eleazar Maccabeus.

The most obvious source for Eleazar's name is the the (apocryphal) biblical book "I Maccabees". In 1 Maccabees 2:1–5 and 1 Maccabees 6:42–46 Eleazar is called Avaran. Maccabeus is not a family name. It was the a name given only to Judas. Each of the brothers had a different name - John Gaddi, Simon Thassi, Judas Maccabeus, Eleazar Avaran, and Jonathan Apphus - all sons of Mattathias son of John son of Simeon, a priest of the family of Joarib. Nowhere in the biblical sources can the name Eleazar Maccabeus be found.

Interestingly, britannica.com has an entry for Eleazar Maccabeus. However, it is not a biographical entry, but rather a lead to the article about the Maccabees. In that article, Eleazar is called Eleazar Avaran , not Maccabeus.

The article should be reverted to its original name "Eleazar Avaran". I have added an entry to the talk page. Please respond there, not here nor on my talk page, in order for other interested parties to voice their opinions. Kind regards, --@Efrat (talk) 07:38, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

You will have noticed that I have reverted most of the moves. Perhaps WP:RM should have been used. StAnselm (talk) 10:37, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Wait, Wait

Main page: Talk:Eleazar Avaran § Naming conventions on WP for the Maccabees

Before repeating your response on all the Maccabean brothers' pages, please stay on Talk:Eleazar Avaran. If we do open a forrmal discussion, it would be helpful to keep it one place instead of repeating it four times. Kind regards, --@Efrat (talk) 10:48, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi Atefrat: Nothing to worry about, the discussion will remain in one place, but a few more pages directly linked to this need to be notified where the discussion is so that this will be an open discussion. It should be interesting to see the views that come in and of course I will defer to WP:CONSENSUS but at this time it would appear that the articles seem to favor a Christian WP:POV (stemming from the historical oddity that since Christianity puts the Books of the Maccabees in the NT while Judaism does not regard them as part of its holy scriptures, neither Oral nor Written) and the articles do not seek to include current classical Jewish views, starting from the naming conventions. IZAK (talk) 11:05, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Is there a classical Jewish naming convention? The Greek Septuagint is a translation of the (now lost) Hebrew Book of I Maccabess. So the names given in 1 Maccabees 2:1–5 is not specifically a Christian POV. But never mind that for now. Thanks for arranging the discussion a little more logically. However, I think that it needs to be turned into an official WP:RM. One of the advantages of WP:RM is that it brings more people into the discussion and once a consensus is reached, (which seems to be going toward Prop C), the final decision carries more weight than just a bunch of people shootin' the breeze on a talk page! lol --@Efrat (talk) 05:46, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
P.S. The two statements which I crossed out are absolutely irrelevant to the discussion. They just break the flow. How about deleting them? --@Efrat (talk) 06:15, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
@Efrat said: "P.S. The two statements which I crossed out are absolutely irrelevant to the discussion. They just break the flow. How about deleting them?" -- Done [1]. IZAK (talk) 12:12, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

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613 commandments

As you can see at the bottom of the history of 613 commandments, these commandment were added by an IP user who did not really make any other edits on Wikipedia. He claims that such is the order of the commandments in Maimonides. However, when I looked that up, I saw this is not true. The Rambam does not mix positive and negative commandments, and even if we were to look only at the positive commandments, the order is preserved only up to a certain point. Would you be able to shed some light on this? I ask you since I noticed in that same history that you were involved with that article from the very beginning. And of course as a person knowledgeable in Jewish texts. Debresser (talk) 02:17, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

  • Hi Debresser, and thanks for contacting me. Yes, when WP was first starting I was involved with that article around ten years ago. I believe I even posted the original full 613 mitzvas on that page. I tried to look around now, but there is all sorts of editing activity and I can't figure out EXACTLY how I can help out. Please be more SPECIFIC and tell me where I can help you out in this case and I will be more than happy to do so. You can also also contact me via my WP Email if need be. Be well and have a great Shabbos. IZAK (talk) 16:29, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
A gute woch. If you would know who designed the order of the commandments as they are on that page, then we could change the text "as enumerated by Maimonides". And if not, then I think we should remove that text. What do you think? Debresser (talk) 21:31, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi Debresser. Thanks for clarifying. From what I recall, the online source was from the Aish HaTorah page The 613 Commandments:

"The 613 Commandments
613 is one of the most famous Jewish numbers, representing all the commandments of the Torah.
The following is a brief listing of the 613 commandments, as recorded and classified by Maimonides in the 12th century. This listing is taken from his classic compendium of Jewish law, the "Mishneh Torah," which contains 14 primary "books" or sections.
This list should not be used as a source for any practical Halachic ruling. There are differences of opinion over the applicability today of some commandments in this list. Similarly, distinctions must often be made between rabbinically-decreed commandments and those that still have binding force as Torah-law today. In all cases of doubt, a competent rabbinical authority should be consulted.
This list is reprinted from the book, "Bible Basics," a user-friendly, illustrated reference guide to the Five Books of Moses. (Published by International Traditions Corporation, Jerome S. Hahn, General Editor.)..."[2]

Maimonides is definitely listed as the source and there is an additional citation the work "Bible Basics" which presumably is reliable if the Orthodox educators Aish HaTorah editors used it.[3] Hope this helps to resolve things. Regards, IZAK (talk) 20:12, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Gilabrand

Hi IZAK. Gila is a very talented editor, but unfortunately this is not her first trip to WP:A/E. If I'm not mistaken, she was topic-banned once before, and the ban was lifted on the condition that she be on her best behavior. It's hard for me to see any way in which this doesn't end badly for her. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:10, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

  • The discussion was closed, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive142#Gilabrand: "Consensus for editing bias, but not consensus that it is actionable, even under heightened scrutiny of ARBPIA. Gilabrand has been notified, warned of the heightened scrutiny and limits to how far things can go before they would become actionable, and encouraged to edit in a somewhat more neutral manner if possible. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 17:49, 7 December 2013 (UTC)" Thanks, IZAK (talk) 05:12, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue XCII, November 2013

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I will appreciate it to see your notes concerning my remarks in the Arab Israeli 1948 war talk page.

Hi

I will appreciate it to see your notes concerning my remarks in the Arab Israeli 1948 war talk page.

I am an Israeli, but try to be objective. I am the only Israeli regular editor in this articles, and the other editors reactions are mostly negative , as expected. It is much better to hear your opinion as well. If you are not too busy, will it be possible for you to comment in the talk page.

thanks Ykantor (talk) 18:34, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Request for help with the evaluative diversity page

The evaluative diversity page attempts to recognize the contributions of various spiritual traditions to the issue of evaluative diversity. I would like help identifying the contributions of Judaism. Langchri (talk) 19:52, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Sfeka d'yoma

Hi, I finally sat down and worked on this page. It still needs citations for the basic material under Background and regarding the dates of the holidays. I suspect there are better sources in Hebrew, but I'm unable to read them. Kol tuv, Yoninah (talk) 23:30, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of True Torah Jews

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The Bugle: Issue XCIII, December 2013

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January 2014

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Kabbalistic words and phrases

Why do you add Category:Kabbalistic words and phrases to articles about Kabbalistic books? Debresser (talk) 18:12, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

  • Hi there Debresser: Because those names have become part of Kabbalistic terminology and "language". The names are also words and phrases. What are you thinking? I would be glad to hear your views. IZAK (talk) 22:25, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
I would say a book title is not a term. Debresser (talk) 00:07, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
I understand what you are saying, but it's definitely a matter of "semantics" because as you know according to Torah scholarship what would be a so-called "book title" in secular terms, in Torah terms becomes the "symbol" of a whole set of ideas. Thus when, for example, one uses the term it's a "Zohar" or "Tanya" it denotes concepts/terms/notions beyond the actual "title" of the physical book. Admittedly this is more subtle than secular users of WP may be familiar with, but it's definitely encyclopedic to illustrate how such terms, even of "books", are actually part of "Kabbalistic words and phrases". Thanks again and let me know what you think. IZAK (talk) 16:03, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
I thought that that might be your reasoning, but I still disagree. Do you think there is someplace here on Wikipedia where we might ask for a third opinion? Debresser (talk) 20:01, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Debresser: Basically, from what I can tell what your position boils down to at this point is that, technically on WP, is that is it acceptable to have Category:Kabbalah texts as a sub-category of Category:Kabbalistic words and phrases? But my reasoning is that in the way titles and texts of Kabbalah are used, just as names of famous rabbinic authorities are used, the names take on a life that is more than their mere titles or abbreviations may be. I am not sure who can make a definitive decision here because we are talking about something that is inherent and unique to the field of Torah scholarship and would require some degree of familiarity with that. Maybe we could start by presenting the question at WP:TALKJUDAISM and see if anyone wishes to comment over there. Feel free to start the discussion there, as a start, and let's see where that takes us. IZAK (talk) 23:45, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Ok, will do. Debresser (talk) 06:32, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
By the way, I think that User Jfdwolff (talk · contribs) would be an excellent person to consult. IZAK (talk) 03:14, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Good idea. I'll post him an invitation to comment at WT:JUDAISM. Debresser (talk) 09:56, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Ask the rabbi

This is definitely a "trend" but I can't find any articles that actually discuss the concept. All I find are tons of "Ask the Rabbi" or "Ask a Rabbi" columns in newspapers and online sources. There's even a book, "What Christians Ask the Rabbi". The article is basically OR, with no real sources. How do you suggest we go about improving it? Yoninah (talk) 21:25, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

  • Hi there Yoninah: The best way then would seem to be by expanding on what you have just stated here and then listing various media/sources that have such columns, and add some names of the rabbis who are "answering". Thus there should be a section of "Ask the rabbi" in newspapers. Then "Ask the rabbi" in magazines. And "Ask the rabbi" on the Internet. Just a descriptive account/summation of how widespread and popular this is would be encyclopedic. Avoid, as much as humanly possible, making it into a "list" type of article. What do you think? IZAK (talk) 22:32, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
OK, I'll try. But a lot of what's on the page is OR and has to go. Yoninah (talk) 23:14, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

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File source problem with File:MosheDayan small.jpg

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  • Response: This pic was added in 2004, ten years ago. During that time it has been around and by now it is unreasonable to find all these new criteria. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 03:12, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

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The Bugle: Issue XCIV, January 2014

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Thanks and more

Thanks for correcting Machanaim. Other articles important for me and partially written by me are: Inna Meiman-Kitrossky (my mother of blessed memory), Naum Meiman, Benjamin Fain, Ephraim Kholmyansky. Great thanks, lkitross (talk) 23:01, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Need help with Tom Clancy's Op Center (film)

I added this film's page recently but am having trouble finding references other than IMDB and Amazon. It started life as a 170-minute TV miniseries and was edited down to a 114 "made for TV" (ha!) movie - viewable on YouTube.

It's an excellent production, still topical after 19 years (espionage ethics, lack of; politics, ditto; nuclear warheads; Iran), and I'd like to see it through. I know it was broadcast on the IBA when it came out because I saw it. Would you see if you can find anything about it in Hebrew media? I wouldn't know where to look. Cheers! Shir-El too 13:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Will do so. Cheers! Shir-El too 17:04, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

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Philo

Hi,

Just wondering why you removed the links from the article: Philo? He is placed in all those categories. -- Cheers -- ♣Jerm♣729 09:46, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

  • Hi Jerm729, thanks for asking. Nothing has been lost because if you have noticed, I have just created the new Category:Philo and moved all those sub-categories to the new category page to avoid too much duplication. I left the categs referring to "dates" on the article's page. Hope this explains it. Stay in touch. IZAK (talk) 09:49, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

I see now, I was just concerned with the large removal of links. -- Thanks -- ♣Jerm♣729 09:54, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

  • I realize what was bothering you. But when creating a new category (i.e. Category:Philo) it is not unusual to then move many of the sub-categories in place under the article to under the new main category. Sometimes though, admittedly, both are kept, but I think it creates cumbersome duplication. Now, instead of the plain article appearing on all those category pages, it will appear as a category on all those categories in its own right. Nothing has been lost no matter what. IZAK (talk) 10:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Help needed with Sefer haYashar

Greetings! The Sefer haYashar disambiguation page has had over a dozen links pointing to it for several months. Since you worked on that page (nearly ten years ago) I was hoping that you would be able to find the right solution to fix those links. Cheers! bd2412 T 04:33, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

  • Hi BD2412 and thanks for contacting me. I took a quick look at the Sefer haYashar disambiguation page and I am now trying to make heads or tails of the links to it. Could you be more specific and cite exact problems as examples. You could also post a message at WP:TALKJUDAISM and see what some other expert Judaic editors may have to contribute. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 11:38, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
    • It seems that someone has fixed all of the links. Perhaps, however, this should not be a disambiguation page at all, but should be a broader examination of these various writings, and whatever relationships exist between them. Cheers again! bd2412 T 15:38, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
      • Hi again BD2412: As it stands it is correct as a disambiguation page because it happens to be that the various works and writings with this similar sounding title are NOT connected to each other but rather it is a "popular" title that has been chosen by diverse Jewish/rabbinic authors over the millennia. Are you familiar with Judaism and Jewish scholarship? IZAK (talk) 05:28, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
        • I can't say that I am, but when I see a large number of works with the same name, I suspect that there is some relationship between them that can be expanded on in an article, rather than a disambiguation page. In this case, it just looks like there are a lot of copycats trying to gain the prestige of an original work. bd2412 T 15:42, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi again BD2412: Sorry, but you are missing the fact that the name is basically derived from a Biblical sources of over 3,000 years ago, see: Sefer haYashar#Biblical references: Sefer haYashar (Biblical references), the book mentioned in Joshua 10:13 and 2Samuel 1:18. That being so, in Jewish scholarship series of authors over many centuries then typically use that title for their own diverse works that are unrelated to each other. In addition the mere meaning of the words (meaning "book of the upright/just") then allowed authors throughout the millennia to use it for works that they felt denoted that theme or fits as a good title for their writings, none of which need be connected. Thus this disambiguation page is needed. For a WP editor to just cook up an article to tie together works that have no real relationship with each other would be an exercise in futility as well as a gross violation of WP:NOR and WP:NOTMADEUP. Take care and please feel free to stay in touch with me and better yet please keep posting concerns you may have about Jewish topics at WP:TALKJUDAISM as there are always some editors there who can help out in a jam. Sincerely, IZAK (talk) 08:46, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue XCV, February 2014

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Jewish views on slavery

Hi IZAK. I finally implemented the merge suggested here by mikeman67 (talk · contribs). Now that the article is properly named and discusses both Judaism's view on slavery as well as the "Jewish involvement" in it, I would appreciate it if you could help assist me and others in making a few adjustments to the article. It definitely needs some work (it's currently too long, contains unnecessary information, poorly formatted in some places, etc.). Do you know what should we do with the page Talk:Jews and the slave trade - should it be left as is or moved to the main Talk:Jewish views on slavery?

Also, I saw you made a few edit on the article Jews and Communism, which is now the only article that has the shameless title "Jews and ___". It's an outrage that the discussion ended with "no consensus", while 25 votes said delete and only 12 (including 1 IP address!) were in favor of keeping it. I'll soon take a look at its deletion review (The Four Deuces (talk · contribs) brought it to there ahead of me, thanks) at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 March 14, and advice mikeman67 to take a look as well since he participated in the previous discussion. Thanks for your contribution. Yambaram (talk) 23:48, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for making the merge Yambaram (talk), I wasn't entirely sure how to do it. I also strongly agree with you that the "no merger" result makes very little sense, considering votes for deleting it was 2 - 1 in favour. I'll add my two cents there. mikeman67 (talk) 20:22, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

March 2014

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The Bugle: Issue XCVI, March 2014

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Haggadah

I'd like to suggest moving your lengthy addition "Passover Seder according to the Haggadah" toward the end of the Haggadah article. The other sections, Authorship, History, and Illuminated Manuscripts, are much shorter and likely to be missed by most readers in their current placement. Do you have a problem with this?--agr (talk) 10:19, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

  • Hi agr: No problem feel free to move that section, as long as it stays so that readers can also know the contents of the Haggadah. Even though you call it "lengthy" it is in itself only the barest of summaries. I am surprised that there is not more about the content of the Haggadah because it is used in Judaism by Jews on the first (and second outside of Israel) Passover nights practically, and only theoretical scholars may want to know about it s "origins". The outline of the Haggadah can be found in the Mishna going back about 2,000 years. Thanks for contacting me, IZAK (talk) 04:02, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Portal:Judaism/Information

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April 2014

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