Talk:Syrian civil war

FAQ: infobox

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Question

Why is the infobox short? Where is the information about belligerents and other information commonly seen in an infobox?

Answer

The Syrian civil war is an ongoing multi-sided conflict in Syria involving various state-sponsored and non-state actors. [From the opening sentence of the lead]

Previously, this article had a very long infobox, which attempted to capture the complex relationships between the many belligerent parties in this civil war and present other information such as strengths and casualties.

An RfC was held proposing a substantially shorter version as we now see (Talk:Syrian civil war/Archive 51#RfC on infobox).

To summarise some key points, an infobox is a simple, at-a-glance summary of key points from the article. It is unsuited to capturing nuance and complex information. Quoting from MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE:

The less information that an infobox contains, the more effectively it serves its purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance.

The consensus of the RfC was for the substantially shorter version of the infobox.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Issues

The whole article needs a rewrite, it for example lists allied forces as bellingerents. And it's locked so that nobody can actually do anything to deal with its problems.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.78.207.102 (talk) 07:02, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

I suppose that just as consensus can change, so can allies change. Feel free to use {{Edit semi-protected}} here to suggest specific edits. – wbm1058 (talk) 01:13, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, needs to be re-written. Starting with the title that reads "CIVIL" war. When foreign forces unlawfully invade and annihilate your country, it is not a civil war. It is a hostile and aggressive attack we call today terror. Calling it a "civil" war is a misleading political statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.70.29.185 (talk) 09:22, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

It's quite common for foreign forces to intervene in a civil war. That doesn't (necessarily) change the internal aspect of the war. — kwami (talk) 08:19, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

I would support the notion that this was not a civil war but a proxy war. Mercenaries, foreign or national, fighting a proxy war for foreign powers, paid, armed and guided by those foreign powers, among which the CIA, do not qualify as a local uprising and part of a civil war. Mregelsberger (talk) 17:04, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

For the people who are defending USA and NATO, USA with the help of turkey, they posioned syrian civillians by dropping posion gas from airplanes. If that is not a war crime then I do not know what is. 155.4.141.62 (talk) 21:09, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I think that even the title - Syrian Civil War - is misleading and should be changed. This is corroborated by people here and by information, that is increasingly available, not least the continuation of the proxy war between the USA and Russia in Ukraine. A proxy war opposing armed gangs managed by foreign powers and a national army is not a civil war, even though it apparently is among national parties. The "conflict in Ukraine" as it is called by the OHCHR is quite similar and is named on Wikipedia as "War in Donbas" described, without further proof as follows: "The war in Donbas, or Donbas war was a phase of the Russo-Ukrainian War in the Donbas region of Ukraine." This could also be said of the war in Syria, which could be named the "War in Syria", a "phase of the proxy war of the USA and Russia, opposing US mercenary groups assisted by US and US ally troupes and the Syrian army with Syrian allies (Russia, Iran, Hezbollah)". The war in Syria actually is not over, with the USA illegally occupying the north-eastern part of the country, i.e. the oil fields of Syria, producing oil on its own account without permission from the national government. Nothing is "civil" there. Wikipedia shouldn't get involved in politics and have only one standard, in this case applied to all conflicts alike, without distinction of who is waging them. Mregelsberger (talk) 10:08, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. There is a sentence in there saying that the Syrian Civil War "...started nine years ago..." This page needs work. Livepsycle (talk) 04:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Well said. Spiralwhats in your boxCox (talk) 11:27, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

References

Requesting changing the colours of the free army and/or the interim goverment on the map table

The two groups colours on the map given by the table are both mildly different shades of green and they are genuinely hard for me to tell the difference. I am having issues seeing the difference then i believe others are too, espically those who may be colour blind. i don't know how to change it, i would if i could so instead i am asking that one or both be changed. I propose changing the Syrian Interim Government's (SNA) colours to blue as it would would contrast nicely against the yellow of the AANES and SAAF yellow and red respectively 92.236.211.53 (talk) 22:35, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I recognise your issue which may affect many people. My issue with the article is the complete lack of information regarding the involvement of the American " intelligence" community in fomenting trouble in Syria in 2011 and the years preceding this. Spiralwhats in your boxCox (talk) 11:30, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

New fights around Aleppo

https://levant24.com/news/2024/11/cmos-repelling-the-aggression-operation-gains-ground-against-assad-regime-forces/ 2A02:3032:14:3509:C85A:47D1:3E37:124F (talk) 14:25, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Map needs to be updated

https://syria.liveuamap.com/ Arye Bernshtein (talk) 23:36, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Aleppo

The battles in Aleppo should be added 88.236.189.163 (talk) 10:50, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Hama

Hama has been retaken by SAA map should be changed Mayukh Mitra 123 (talk) 21:03, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Are there multiple WP:RS for intra-Syrian-govt fighting/attempted coup d'etat in Damascus?

Question started at: Talk:Northwestern Syria offensive (2024)#Any sources for intra-Syrian-govt fighting in Damascus? Boud (talk) 00:46, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Map Accuracy and Projection

We need to way out the current map and wait for things to settle, as it seems that the Syrian Interim Government under the Free Syrian Army occupies many areas around the Lake strategic eastern of Aleppo, as they also carried out the operations to occupy it. It is in no way deemable to assume this is part of the HTS (in white). The sources must be syria.liveuamap.com, but they are coloring all the new occupied Territories the same color, so we do not know the exact borders of which group owns what. DerEchteJoan (talk) 22:27, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I want to add to that, that the Syrian Free Army controls areas west of the lake aswell, which the HTS did not take. 79.247.24.147 (talk) 08:17, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Currently they control the whole lake Sabkhat al-Jabbul, and areas surrounding it. In the current version of the map, HTS and the Syrian Army still control it 79.247.24.147 (talk) 09:12, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Still is severely outdated; as uncertain as things are right now, we need to change the detailed map to reflect what we do know is happening. LordOfWalruses (talk) 03:28, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes. This is one of the most complicated armed conflicts, not much is known. Things need to settle out. DerEchteJoan (talk) 05:30, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

So, currently syria.livuamap.com is reporting, that the HTS and the NLF (part of the SNA) are currently both attacking Assad Forces in the same places, which must implicate joint control. We need to find a solution to this problem, as it is impossible under the current circumstances to show accurate projections of HTS and SNA control. One solution may be, that we group the Rebel Forces together. 89.244.83.56 (talk) 16:00, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

We could do that, or we could have a separate coloration for “HTS-SNA joint control.” LordOfWalruses (talk) 20:19, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Black shading over zoomed in map.

When you click on the map in the infobox showing the War Map, some black lines appear over parts of the map that aren't there before. This could be because it's an SVG and chooses not to show those lines until you zoom in, I don't know.

But it's still very strange and I'm not sure what it's supposed to be or if it's even intentional, especially since these black lines even go over Raqqa, which is firmly under SDF control.

My best guess is that it represents renewed ISIS activity, but if so, this hasn't been mentioned anywhere else I can find on any Wikipedia article, so for that to only appear on the map is strange.

And either way, the fact that they onlt appear when the image is clicked on is very strange and I think that should be fixed. Taiyaki Schizo (talk) 10:21, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

• There is also a gray circle to the west of the upper corner of the "D" in Deir ez-Zor. What is that? 104.171.53.110 (talk) 00:53, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

It’s ISIS activity. Ambushes, raids, etc. It’s not really mentioned anywhere except for the SDF advances in “Deir ez-Zoir. ISIS there is a third side of the belligerents. 71.236.127.123 (talk) 18:32, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

“Territorial changes” section outdated

The source is from the beginning of 2023 and major changes have been made since the rebel offensive of 2024: an updated source should be found for this section (if possible). LordOfWalruses (talk) 17:21, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Support Viceskeeni2 (talk) 05:50, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Just wanted to express support for this change. I was going to raise this issue myself until I saw it had already been raised. Editors please update this ASAP in light of recent events. 2A00:23C8:90A:1601:C55F:48DA:5A82:8E4E (talk) 17:43, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Update the map!!!!!

There is a need to include hama 109.53.212.182 (talk) 15:21, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Color changes for southern Syria rebels

The magenta colors don’t match the other colors in the key (not even the purple one, which is for reconciled rebels and not ones that are still fighting the government), and green for the southern rebels may not be accurate since the SNA is currently in the north only. (I may be totally wrong on that though.) As such, new colors should be added into the legend and/or the southern rebels (that are currently in green) should be changed to a new color on the map.LordOfWalruses (talk) 20:34, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

The percentages of control need to be updated.

Possibly, after we know what happens in Damascus. NesserWiki (talk) 17:19, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, I just raised that in a newer section, and we likely have to also change the outcome too should Assad's regime finally collapse---rumors and news report that some high-ranking Syrian officials may want to defect to the rebels now. Bf0325 (talk) 01:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikibox Map

Someone has replaced the normal high quality wikibox map with the LiveUA one, which in addition to having unconfirmed and incorrect information, is also generally low quality. People should wait for the real map to update. Reverting edits doesn't seem to be able to change this back to the normal map though. MegaZeroX7 (talk) 19:05, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Not sure why they thought that'd be a good idea Colin dm (talk) 19:12, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I just reverted the edit. haha169 (talk) 19:13, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

can somebody make the grey lands back to red again Sanad real (talk) 22:04, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

the map is more difficult to read and understand like this especially since the cities are colored red Sanad real (talk) 22:05, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I’m not sure that’s really a good idea: I may be totally wrong on this, but I believe the grey parts of the map are where Assad is technically in control but has no real ability to exert power. Given how much this indicates the severity of Assad’s downfall, I think including this in the map is not a bad idea. LordOfWalruses (talk) 22:41, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

i know but it's simpler for readers to see one color for assad's forces instead of being confused on what the gray is Sanad real (talk) 22:48, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I get what you’re saying. Maybe we could add a separate color for “loose SAA control” or “uncontrolled.” Perhaps even some sheet over the red (similar to the gray stripe sheet used to show ISIS operations). LordOfWalruses (talk) 23:09, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

yeah maybe a lighter shade of red for loose control and a darker one for strong control Sanad real (talk) 23:26, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Map needs update

There have been many new rebel advancements that haven’t been included in the map (especially advanced by the Southern Front and the Syrian Free Army). This should be changed as soon as possible. LordOfWalruses (talk) 19:35, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Not just that, the whole outcome and territorial changes need amendments too...the developments right now have to be measured in hours and minutes instead of days and weeks due to Assad's regime collapse, and this time it won't be as lucky as 2012 when it was able to battle and launch multiple offensives and counteroffensives against the rebels. Bf0325 (talk) 01:33, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Wrong color for Southern Operations Room?

Is it just me or is the color listed for the southern operations room on the color code different than the one used on the map? Onegreatjoke (talk) 22:51, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Territorial Changes etc needs update

The current description of the titled stopped "as of Jan 1, 2023" whereas the ongoing Syrian rebels offensives simply drastically change the whole outcome, and Assad's regime may be numbered in days or hours as we speak.

Should Assad's regime finally collapse, not only we've to change the whole percentages of territorial changes attributed to HTS-led coalition, southern groups, and Kurdish's Rojava, but also the final outcome itself. Bf0325 (talk) 01:31, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, I think the "Territorial Changes" section of the infobox should be removed altogether, as rapid changes have been made. As to the case of hypothetical Syrian Opposition/Rojava victory, we'll have to wait until the outcome to decide that. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 02:08, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Now there're reports that Assad already fled. Bf0325 (talk) 03:35, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Question

Should we make an article on the remnants of the Ba'ath Syria, and the remaining army in Latakia? PopularGames (talk) 04:12, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Status and date

If Assad has confirmed to have fled, is the status now a Rebel victory? Does this mean the civil war is over or should we keep the status and date as is? 2001:56A:7956:9000:7080:2590:97EC:DE15 (talk) 04:17, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

second cold war in infobox

the conflict isn’t even well defined Bte3000 (talk) 04:20, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Fix the date, 8/12/2024 the end of the war

Fix the date, 8/12/2024 the end of the war 2001:8F8:1B2F:478C:A5CE:60AF:67E6:5DEA (talk) 04:40, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I think we should wait and see if everyone accepts HTS or there are groups who would fight HTS. All of this ought to be cleared in few days. DataCrusade1999 (talk) 04:45, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

if there is no agreement between HTS and others, I think it would be wise to declare a "split" between the civil war before the fall of Assad and the time after. AsyarSaronen (talk) 04:48, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

It's not clear that the coast will be taken over by HTS (or another rebel group) peacefully.--Brian Dell (talk) 08:06, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Date Phase

Syria civil war has or rather had(?) gone through very long time - 14 yrs and recent offense done by rebels ascend the fall of Assad dynasty after few years of stalemate from 2020 to 2024. i would propose the adding of Two Phases: first one from 2011 to 2020 and second is from 2024 to present day as there was no significant fighting from 2020 to 2024 Foxy Husky (talk) 06:58, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 December 2024

The syrian civil war has ended 8 Dec 24 Asssad regime has collapsed Syrianheart45 (talk) 07:21, 8 December 2024 (UTC)