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On June 14, 2008, Jwalte04 eliminated some 55% of this article on what appear to me to be specious grounds. Summarily deleted were three photos of Max and several newspaper accounts of his performance on the field. Where is the policy that indicates Wikipedia articles will be upgraded in proportion as they are impoverished? Martel,C (talk) 03:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The newspaper accounts were all secondary sources that were coming from a single individual. I tried to keep everything that I could find proof of and marked it with a [citation needed]. I got rid of a lot of the pictures just because they would not fit well in the newer edit. But if people do not agree with any of my edits, feel free to change them. Jwalte04 (talk) 07:08, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the newspaper accounts were all from different sources, i.e. different reporters reporting for different sports pages (although these old newspaper clippings did happen to be in the collection owned by the Krause family). Included among the deleted was the National sportswriters Hall of Famer, Shirley Povich of the Washington Post, who wrote a detailed account of Krause's performance against the Philadelphia Eagles after Krause took over from Cliff Battles. I invite someone to restore the Jwalte04 version dated 17:08, 14 June 2008, about a half-hour before he eliminated 55% of the article. Elburts (talk) 17:33, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I did so, Elburts. The earlier version is by far the better one. Carylred (talk) 16:04, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Changed it back. When I said that all the original sources were coming from a single individual, I meant that only one person can see these references and that no one else can confirm. I mean look at some of the old references used, "induction ceremony speech for Max Krause, 4/24/1981", "Undated, unattributed newspaper clipping of November, 1928, in 3 volume scrapbook owned by Mike Krause (hereafter cited Mike Krause collection)", "The Spokesman Review, November 1, 1953", "St. Ignatius Beats Gonzaga 13-12,” Mike Krause collection, article dated c. Oct. 13, 1930", "Seattle Post-Intelligencer, 9/24/1932", "Mike Krause collection", "also told by Max orally to Bob Struble & Bob Struble, Jr. in Spokane c. 1960; confirmed by Mike Krause personally on May 31, 2008", "Bob Struble, Jr., interviews with Mike Krause -- 2/18/2008 (by telephone), 5/31/08, over lunch".......What are we suppose to do with the "sources"? Take the editors word? Come on. Plus the red block writing was awful. Jwalte04 (talk) 16:34, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I notice, Jwalte04, that you've recently graduated from VA Tech in Geography. Congratulations. I did my postgraduate work in History long before computers, in the days when we actually had to go to libraries and look materials up in hardcopy. If you're that interested in verifying the quotations from, say, the Seattle PI, or the Washington Post, I'm afraid you'll have to go to the stacks and do it the hard way. Articles from sports pages of the 1920s and 30's are unlikely to be posted anywhere online.

This difficulty is, however, no reason to exclude primary sources of historical value. Historians will often cite private collections when they are so fortunate as to be granted access to them. To access this particular collection was easier for me, admitedly, in that I am a professional historian and longtime teacher, and Mike Krause, my 2nd cousin, lent me the entire archive of his father's memorabilia for the purpose of doing this research.

Some of the materials will be relatively easy for you to track down, others more difficult; but that's why one provides footnotes for materials, so the reader can make a judgement about their value and credibility. In my own Wikipedia editing I sometimes upgrade existing endnotes, and a little patience is perhaps indicated when sources could use some elaboration. Reverting back to square one means that scores of readers will never see the footnote, and thus never have the opportunity to make a contribution to it.

As for your value judgement against "the red block writing," I'm not sure if your quarrel is with the reporter's literary style or with the color. (In any case they are invaluable primary sources written by eyewitnesses of the events). If the format is the problem and you'd prefer another color, black for example, please feel welcome to make the change.

Elburts (talk) 19:13, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but I still think that those first sources violate WP:RELY and WP:VER, while others qualify as WP:OR. Jwalte04 (talk) 20:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The first Wikipedia guideline you quoted, WP:RELY, includes this: "Material from mainstream news organizations is welcomed, particularly the high-quality end of the market, such as The Washington Post...." So how, Jwalte04, do you justify deleting National Sportswriters Hall of Famer Shirley Povich's eyewitness account as published in the Washington Post, (9/12/1938)? Povich's colorful description of Krause's performance against the Philadelphia Eagles is primary source material of first rate quality and verifiability. That Povich expresses an admiring POV about Krause's talent is perfectly legitimate for this article, in that I quote it as a contemporary account of Max Krause's performance on the field.

You've done a good job in finding some easily verifiable sources online of which I was unaware, like the 1961 Sports Illustrated reference to Max's 62 yard run in 1940. Thank you for that. However, most of your sources are only tangentially related to Max, and none give anything like the detail found in what you unmercifully cut. You've eliminated every single hard copy source! What is your rationale? Hopefully it is not that one has to suffer the inconvenience of leaving one's computer to verify such sources.

How about if I make it easier for Wikipedia readers? I can scan these newspaper clippings onto an internet site accessible via an external link, so that the reader can examine the originals visually without having to do research in the library. Would that be an agreeable compromise?

Elburts (talk) 00:10, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I could see having that stuff from Povich in there, so you might want to scan a few of the articles, but I still have a problem with the following references: "induction ceremony speech for Max Krause, 4/24/1981", "Undated, unattributed newspaper clipping of November, 1928, in 3 volume scrapbook owned by Mike Krause (hereafter cited Mike Krause collection)", "Mike Krause collection", "also told by Max orally to Bob Struble & Bob Struble, Jr. in Spokane c. 1960; confirmed by Mike Krause personally on May 31, 2008", "Bob Struble, Jr., interviews with Mike Krause -- 2/18/2008 (by telephone), 5/31/08, over lunch". I still feel that all of these are unusable. Jwalte04 (talk) 15:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, this could take me a few days. Elburts (talk) 20:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Its nice to see Elburts and Jwalte04 working together to make this article the best it can be.Carylred (talk) 22:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted to the earlier data page. The latest version of the data page contains inaccuracies quite unflattering to Krause:. There was no NFL draft until 1936, so what is the point of listing him on the data page as undrafted in 1933, as if he were a walk-on? In fact he went straight out of college to the NY Giants, and became starting running back for a team which made it to first NFL championship game.. It seems kind of malicious as well as erroneous to make a point of listing him as having no notable achievements. Max had lots of notable achievements, including leading the west in scoring for the 1932 college football season. Finishing second in rushing to Whizzer White for a season was not bad either, especially since his ave. yardage per carry bested White by a good margin. Max was a GU and Inland Northwest hall of famer; he also held a kick-off return record that stood for decades in the NFL.Carylred (talk) 22:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is with Jwalte04’s messing up the data box? Among other bogus modifications he has Max Krause birth and death days both on April 5, 1909; he lists Krause as undrafted three years before the 1936 NFL Draft was instituted; he omits Krause’s height and weight, and substitutes a few rushing stats (no receiving) instead; and he asserts “No notable achievements” listed for a player whose achievements were legion. I’ve put the original box (the accurate one) back in place of the defective one. Martel,C (talk) 08:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Changed it back because it is the neater, more organized box, but I did change some things. I fixed the death date and got rid of the undrafted part, I replaced the "average" stat with "receiving yards", and I added some achievements. Jwalte04 (talk) 17:12, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Future citations of the Mike Krause Collection of his father's newspaper clippings, football photographs, & etc. will reference the particular volume and page in the collection. Some of the cited portions are now online, featuring magnifiable jpg files so the reader can verify the source and consult related materials. Elburts (talk) 04:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am now in the process of expanding the article using the Mike Krause Collection. This process acknowledges the accord between Elburts and Jwalte04 dated 18 June (see above). Elburts (talk) 08:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Much much better. Still needs inprovement. Please refer to him as Krause in the article, not max. And pay a little bit more attention to your grammar. I will work on it more later. Jwalte04 (talk) 16:15, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Readjusted photos to make room for 4th photo. Krause's professional career started with NY Giants, so action photo with Giants preceeds the head shot of him with the Redskins. Elburts (talk) 04:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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After negotiations with the special collections dept at Foley Library at Gonzaga Univ., the final communication from Wikipedia was as follows:Elburts (talk) 07:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

At 10:06 PM 2/15/2008, Thank you for your mail. We have received the permission for the image(s) and have made the necessary modifications to the Image page(s). Thank you for providing this to us, and for your contribution to Wikipedia. Yours sincerely, Philippe Beaudette

GU's last communication was as follows: From: "Hacker-Brumley, Janet W" <[email protected]> To: "Struble" <[email protected]>

Thank you for sending that text to me. After consulting with my supervisor, Stephanie Plowman, we have decided to let you use the photographs on Wikipedia. We realize these two images will become part of the public domain. However, if someone would like a larger resolution quality image or reprint they would have to contact us. Since this new development, we will be reviewing our photographs presence on the web and will be forming guidelines for the future.

Again, you may publish the two pictures of Max Krause that I have sent you as jpegs (cn960 and cn985) on Wikipedia.org. Please include a credit line of Gonzaga University Archives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elburts (talk • contribs) 02:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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