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May 16

A record-breaking seven parties

Background: I had a brief dispute with a native English speaker at Talk:Serbian parliamentary election, 2016#Election(s) about the indefinite article in sentence In contrast to the 2014 elections, a record-breaking seven non-minority lists passed the 5% threshold. I don't see an appropriate singular noun to which the article can be plausibly attached; wikt:record-breaking is a compound adjective, so "a" is hardly an antecedent of record, and it's even harder an antecedent of seven lists. OK, I gather that the phrase a record-breaking seven lists is formulaic, but then, is there a grammatical sense in it, or is it just... because? No such user (talk) 15:01, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

It is certainly correct English - the whole phrase would sound completely wrong without that indefinite article. My understanding is that there is an implied "number" - it refers to "a record breaking number of lists" which happens to be seven in this case. The record inn question is the number of lists which qualified for representation. 81.132.106.10 (talk) 15:31, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

To me, the phrase "a number of studies have been made" sounds right and "a number of studies has been made" sounds wrong. 80.44.167.65 (talk) 15:56, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

The compound modifier a number of, meaning "numerous", and making the modified noun plural, is semantically and grammatical not the same as the phrase a [modifier] number of [complement], where number is no longer part of a compound but is a noun in its own right. I believe that 81.132... is correct about an implied singular "number of" in the sentence in question. Marco polo (talk) 17:39, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Refinement sought

Can somebody check the paragraph below and see if it is okay? Does it under mine any religion? Rephrase the paragraph if wished/possible?

"In life our age increments, we age to a detrimental point when we realise what life is all about, some of us realise at an early stage (due to the life we live), some realise after (due to health issue(s) conceive[d] either genetically or environmentally, some after death…), do not be late to realise who God is, in life. God doesn’t need you, you need God. No one will help you in life and or in the afterlife if you don’t help yourself. Not even the prophet, messenger, apostle, messiah, whoever or whatever that comes by, because even they are under God. God come first, the sooner you acknowledge Him, the better for you. He is/will be the reason why you’ll have a solicitor (the religious leader of the religion you follow) in the afterlife. Activate God by using your logic, consciousness and understandings. Have a route (religion you was born with or of your choice) to be distinguished from other routes. Use your logic, consciousness and understandings while following a religion, a solicitor/angel or whatever will automatically be there for you in the afterlife…"

Thanks in advance. -- Apostle (talk) 20:46, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

See Paraclete for the theology, incidentally - "advocate" would be a better term than "solicitor". The paragraph needs quite a bit of work to get it into usable form - you need to merge the parentheses into the text and get rid of the "and/or"'s and similar constructions, to start with. Tevildo (talk) 21:37, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

To describe the point in life when we realize what life is all about as "detrimental" jars in the ears of a non-native speaker. I would consider that to be a point of enlightenment. And IMHO stating that being alive implies aging is stating the obvious... --NorwegianBlue ^talk 22:38, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

There are a number of errors in grammar, vocabulary and punctuation, especially in the first half. But I'll just mention the points where you fail to communicate your point at all (at least to me):

1. "detrimental point" - This doesn't really make sense.
2. "solicitor" - not sure I understand what this means -- someone who tries to convince God to give you better treatment?
3. "Activate God" - I don't know what this means.
4. "Have a route ... distinguished from other routes" -- seems vacuous; all routes are distinguished from other routes.

CodeTalker (talk) 00:03, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

A statement intended to appeal to people of all religions should not use masculine terms to describe the deity. That excludes people who reject the notion that God has a human gender. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:01, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Okay, I understand what you guys mean: Keep my flopped out philosophies to myself because my English is rubbish... -- Apostle (talk) 20:16, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Can somebody refine the enquoted paragraph please, my English is not good enough, and some thing's (philosophies) I have to insert in my book; one of this is this crap paragraph... -- Apostle (talk) 20:16, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Here are a few suggestions. I really do not understand some of it, so it still needs work:

“In life we age in increments. At some point we age to a point of enlightenment where we realise what life is all about: some of us realise it at an early stage (due to the life we live); some later (due to genetic or environmental health issues); and some after death. Do not wait too long to realise who God is in your life. God does not need you, you need God. No one can help you in life or in the afterlife if you will not help yourself. Not even the prophet, messenger, apostle, or messiah, because even they are below God. God comes first. The sooner you acknowledge Him, the better it will be for you. He is the reason why you will have an advocate (the religious leader of the religion that you follow) in the afterlife. Dedicate yourself to God by using your logic, consciousness and understanding. Have a path (the religion you were born with or that you choose), to be distinguished from other paths. Use your logic, consciousness and understanding while following a religion, an advocate or angel will automatically be there for you in the afterlife…” —Stephen (talk) 20:42, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Steph.

Btw, can I use the words "god(s) and or goddess(es) wannabies" before the word prophet? Also, is it okay if I insert the following words "prophet, messenger, apostle, or messiah" in plural form? e.g., "prophet(s), messenger(s), apostle(s), or messiah(s)"? -- Apostle (talk) 06:31, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

I would shorten it. "Realize who God is sooner rather than later. God doesn’t need you; you need God. With death comes the need for an advocate. Activate God in life utilizing the religion you were born with or a religion you adopt." Bus stop (talk) 07:38, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

-- Apostle (talk) 18:59, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Wannabes is the wrong register, too chatty and informal. Maybe "competing gods and goddesses" or "competing deities" instead. Try not to use parentheses except where absolutely necessary, so "prophets, messengers, apostles, or messiahs". —Stephen (talk) 07:55, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Okay! -- Apostle (talk) 18:59, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks a lot everyone. Regards -- Apostle (talk) 18:59, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

If we "should not use masculine terms to describe the deity" the only alternatives are "she" and "it". Which is better? 78.145.24.30 (talk) 14:40, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

They is an alternative. Bazza (talk) 15:21, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Or you could use a neutral noun instead of a gender-specific pronoun, such as God, the Supreme Being, the Lord, the Almighty, the Creator, the Maker, the Godhead, Jehovah, Yahweh, the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Trinity, the Great Spirit, the Deity, the Divine Being, the Celestial Being, the Divinity, the Immortal One, I Am, the Timeless One, the Formless One, the All-Possessing, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise, the Incomparable One, the Gracious One, the Helper, the All-Glorious, the King of Kings, the God of Abraham, HaShem, the Omniscient One, the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, the Most High, God the Father. Take your pick. See also 101 Names of God —Stephen (talk) 19:25, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

No, want to keep it simple. I don't know, Cullen stated above too. I used "[S]he" because of user "Steph" and "Bus Stop" did not change that part earlier. "It" sounds alright (in a way) but using it doesn't fit somehow, to me because someone said it is used at animals and non-living things. And, now you guys confused me... -- Apostle (talk) 20:14, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

A song in a Norwegian dialect

Hello, There is this song of which I can't make out some (many) parts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2rkxrwvZHw. I'm rather bad at this, and the dialect doesn't help either. Would any Norwegian speaker like to help me with the missing words (and possibly identify the dialect, besides being from somewhere in the eastern part of the country)? I have written out the parts that I do get.--95.42.25.72 (talk) 23:35, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Jeg har et lite småbruk langt opp i ......,
men kjerringa ...................................,
................................................ utedo,
drar noe særlig damer, men apropos -
jeg har .......................... på TV-2,
......... fullt av kvinnfolk på høghælte sko
og......... så vælja blant alle dem som kom,
men det er ei spesiell ei som jeg drømmer om.
(Refreng:)
Det er ‘a Katrine Moholt e vil ha,
‘a Katrine Moholt som gjør meg glad,
.............. aldri (gjør seg tau?!)
jeg må bare si at jeg (vil ikke ha no’ laug?!)
............ aleine i alle disse år,
med brennende begjær blant gris og kuer og får
..............gamle kjerringer fra nær og fjern,
men det er ei spesiell ei som gjør meg helt gæren.
(Refreng.)
Det virker itte som ‘a Katrine Moholt er noe klar,
sjøl om (jeg er lei?).................. jeg skulle ønske at ‘a var,
men det er et håp om at når filmrullen er dum,
så skal ‘a Katrine Moholt .......... (litt om?)
(Refreng.)

The performers/songwriters "no:Trøste og Bære" consisted of Bjørn Anders Hermundstad (recently deceased) [1], from Gran in Hadeland, and Trond Amlie from Toten. The dialect is from the west side of Mjøsa. Whether it's Hadelandsdialekt or Totendialekt, I'm not sure; both go under the general heading of "Opplandsmål". I'll see if I get the time to fill in the blanks, but hey, it's 17. mai! If I get the time, would you like the version "written in dialect", i.e. "Je" instead of "Jeg", "tel" instead of "til", or would you like standardized spelling? --NorwegianBlue ^talk 13:33, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the dialect identification, og gratulerer med dagen! It's not a problem if it's not *today* but tomorrow or the day after tomorrow that you fill them in - I'll be very grateful if you do it at all. As for the spelling, the closer to what he is actually singing, the better, but by all means do whatever is more convenient for you! Cheers, --95.42.25.72 (talk) 18:37, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

OK, here goes:

Je har et lite småbruk langt opp i tæ dals,

men kjerring har det æller kømmi frivillig tæ gards,

Det virker ikke som traktor og utedo, drar noe særlig damer, men apropos:

Je har vørti med på no - på TV-2,

GALA/GARDA fullt av fullt av kvinnfolk på høghæle sko

og je ska messom vælja blant ælle dom som kom,

men det er ei spesiell ei som jeg drømmer om:

(Refreng:)

Det er a Katrine Moholt je vil ha,

a Katrine Moholt som gjør meg glad,

Dom andre jinten' som går rundt og gjør seg tel

jeg må bare si at jeg vikke ha dom læll

Og je som gikk aleine i ælle disse år,

med brennende begjær blant gris og ku og får

Plutslig kom det kjerringer fra nær og fjern,

men det er ei spesiell ei som gjør meg helt gærn.

(Refreng)

Det virker itte som a Katrine Moholt er noe klar,

sjøl om det er der jeg skulle ønske at a var,

men jeg har et håp om at når filmrullen er tom,

så skal a Katrine Moholt få tenkje seg litt om

(Refreng)

Notes

The singer switches between standard forms "jeg", "ikke" and dialectal forms "je", "itte"

Some translations:

• a = hun/henne (In many dialects, names are very often prepended with han/'n or hu/ho/a)
• te = til
• æller = aldri
• kømmi=kommet
• dra damer = attract ladies
• vørti = blitt
• GALA/GARDA: I'm unable to recognize this word, but assume from the context that GALA fullt means chocking full
• messom=liksom
• vælja=velge
• dom = de/dem
• jinten' = jentene
• gjør seg tel = I cant think of an exact translation to English, it means pretend to be (something they aren't)
• vikke = vil ikke
• læll = likevel
• plutslig = plutselig
• itte = ikke
• tenkje = tenke

And for the benefit of those who don't understand Norwegian, but still would like to know the meaning of this work of art:

I have a tiny farm far up in the valley

But no woman has ever visited it voluntarily

It appears as though a tractor and and outhouse doesn't attract the ladies, but a propos:

I have joined this thing, on TV-2 (Refers to a TV show, Norwegian version of "Farmer Wants a Wife")

Chocking full of ladies on high-heeled shoes

And I'm supposed to chose between all those who come

But there is someone special, who I'm dreaming of:

(Refrain)

It is Katrine Moholt (The host of the TV show) that I want

Katrine Moholt fills me with joy

The other girls who walk around and pretent to be (hot)

I just have to say that that I don't want them anyway

And I who walked alone, during all those years,

With burning desire among pig and cow and sheep

Suddenly comes ladies from near and far

But there's a special one who drives me out of my mind

(Refrain)

It doesn't appear that Katrine Moholt is ready (at all)

Even though it's there that I would wish that she would be

But I have a hope that when the film reel is empty

Then Katrine Moholt will think things through

(Refreng)

-NorwegianBlue ^talk 21:40, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

I cant think of an exact translation to English, it means pretend to be (something they aren't). - Masquerade? Akld guy (talk) 22:52, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Not really. "Gjøre seg til" has connotations of acting silly, and its meaning will vary quite a bit depending on context. It can mean pretending with the intention of actually achieving something, or pretending just for fun. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 15:20, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Make believe --217.140.96.140 (talk) 10:23, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Closer, but can the expression be used in the lyrics above without specifying what kind of make-believe the girls are doing? In the context given, the expression evokes the image of ordinary girls who usually wouldn't wear high-heeled shoes wobbling around pretending to celebrities. Word-by-word translation: Dom (The) andre (other) jinten' (girls) som (who) går (go/walk) rundt (around) og (and) gjør (do) seg (themselves) tel (to). --NorwegianBlue ^talk 15:09, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Tusen takk, NorwegianBlue! That was a lot of hard work, since I see I had understood even less of the text than I thought. Thanks for the explanations in Bokmål, too - words like messom and læll would have been a problem even when spelled out - and for the English translations! This was really difficult (for a non-native speaker such as myself).--95.42.25.72 (talk) 11:11, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Bare hyggelig. My pleasure! --NorwegianBlue ^talk 15:09, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

"[W]obbling around pretending to celebrities." I presume that should be 'pretending to be celebrities'. Imitating or mimicking might be suitable, but don't convey a sense of silliness. Aping does, but links to the same article as those two and unfortunately the distinction is not brought out. Akld guy (talk) 00:02, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

May 17

Tihwa

An ancient name for the city of Ürümqi was 迪化 (Tihwa or Dǐhuà). What is the Uyghur Arabic script translitteration of this name? Thanks! --2.37.228.109 (talk) 09:42, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

I would write it this way: «دىخۇئا». —Stephen (talk) 21:12, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Peter Peter Pumpkin Eater

• Peter Peter Pumpkin Eater
• Had a wife but couldn't keep her.
• He kept her in a pumpkin shell
• And kept her there very well.

What is the meaning of this nursery rhyme? I imagine that it is about a man named Peter who struggles to keep his wife with him, because he eats pumpkins all day and never works. He loves his wife very much, but without a job, his wife decides to dump him. Peter does not want his wife to leave him, so he makes a giant pumpkin and traps his wife in it. Do I have the right meaning of "keep"? Is this one of those nonsense nursery rhymes? 198.30.87.2 (talk) 12:32, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Hm. I assumed that Peter Peter Pumpkin Eater was about a recent widower burying his dead wife as fertilizer, but this article and this one suggest that the wife was a prostitute and that the husband jealously murdered her. Not academic sources, though. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:26, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

I'd certainly be suspicious of the first one: it repeats the popular 20th-century notion of Ring a Ring o' Roses referring to the Black Death, although the eminent folklore researchers Iona and Peter Opie demonstrated that the words had gradually mutated to their familiar modern form from rather different ones that had nothing to do with the plague. {The poster formerly known as 87.18.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) 13:50, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

As noted at Nursery rhyme#Meanings of nursery rhymes one must be very careful about trying to ascertain meaning from traditional rhymes with no known author; most of the "meanings" of nursery rhymes we have were basically invented out of whole cloth in the 19th century (many centuries after they were probably first created) with no known actual historical or literary methods used to verify the stories behind them. Many of these putative "meanings" are fairly untrustworthy anyways. As was noted about a week ago, a big part of the "meaning" of any art form has to lie in the audience; this is doubly true where we have no known author to interview and ask them what they meant. --Jayron32 14:50, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Keep has a meaning of "to provide financial support for" as seen in the phrase "kept woman". Rmhermen (talk) 17:06, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Right, and in this case it could mean he couldn't afford a house, so carved out a large pumpkin, instead. Clearly not practical, but nursery rhymes aren't expected to be accurate. StuRat (talk) 17:36, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

I'd rather that than being whipped soundly and sent to bed, for the unforgivable crime of being born to a nymphomaniac who lived in a shoe. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:09, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Shoe dwellers get a bad name, even with a profession. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:13, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

You don't need a job to live large when you have a cunning pussy. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:44, May 17, 2016 (UTC)

You're a cunning linguist and a master debater. --Jayron32 21:47, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Or when you have a famous dick. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:49, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

These are most likely skipping rope rhymes, invented by children. If so, they have no meaning, but are the products of children's imagination. OK, there's a guy in the village who grows pumpkins and eats them. The children name him Peter Pumpkin Eater. His wife leaves him, and word gets around among the villagers that Peter Pumpkin Eater couldn't keep her. The children make up a skipping rope rhyme. Not hard to see how it develops. Akld guy (talk) 20:25, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

I once read a book (Who really Killed Cock Robin?) that argued that the apparent nonsense in nursery rhymes is the result of censorship to remove sexual or pagan themes. I suppose its possible, and in some cases even plausible, but the author seems to ignore the fact that sometimes people just make up nonsense rhymes for the fun of it. Iapetus (talk) 09:49, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Those websites cited by Ian should be taken with a pinch of salt. For example, one of them claims that "Mary, Mary, quite contrary" is "Mary, Queen of Scots - and her silver bells, cockle shells and 'pretty maids' were not implements of gardening (who said they were?) but rather torture devices she used while persecuting the Protestants during her reign."

Looking at her article I see that she came to the throne at six days old and was the mother of James I. She married the future king of France and some time after his death remarried in a Protestant wedding ceremony. Also, for the last eighteen years of her life she was held captive by Elizabeth.

As this is the reference desk, here's a question. King Arthur has a brother Brian and his wife is pregnant with a son, whom she has decided to call Charles. Arthur dies and the following day his queen gives birth. Does the crown pass to Brian or Charles? 78.145.24.30 (talk) 13:45, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Brian's wife had Charles or Arthur's wife? In either case, Arthur's wife eventually becomes the king's wife. InedibleHulk (talk) 14:10, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

This scenario is slightly different. Arthur is king and his wife is the queen. Charles is the son of Arthur and his wife (let's call her Debbie). 78.145.24.30 (talk) 14:19, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Well then, I'd give it to Brian. King Brian is a terrible regnal name, but it seems cut and dry by primogeniture. Debbie could go to war for Charlie, but if she's how I imagine her, they'll lose. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:52, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

What about King Brian Boru? Alansplodge (talk) 16:07, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

It might sound better in Gaelic than it looks in English. Mysterious world of consonants, there. I still recognize the one true King of Munster, though. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:13, May 20, 2016 (UTC)

The question, as asked, was ambiguous, but I assume that it was Arthur's wife who was pregnant (not Brian's) and she gave birth to Charles on the day after Arthur died. I would assume that Brian becomes king at the time of Arthur's death, if there is no older brother or sister. At birth a day later, baby Charles becomes next in succession if there are no existing children of the marriage, and eventually will become king himself if Brian dies with no offspring. Akld guy (talk) 17:26, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Grammar of English nursery rhymes

• Jack be nimble
• Jack be quick
• Jack jump over the candlestick

• Fee Fi Fo Fum.
• I smell the blood of an Englishman.
• Be he alive, or be he dead.
• I will grind his bones to make my bread.

Why do English nursery rhymes have a preference of using this form of grammatical construction? Using this grammar, what are the rhymes supposed to mean? Also, what is "Fee Fi Fo Fum"? And about the content, why would Jack jump over the candlestick? Artistic depictions usually make Jack about the size of a candlestick and paint a man who has to jump over it. Is this artist depiction true to the original meaning? 198.30.87.2 (talk) 12:41, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

"Jack be nimble" is an imperative - we are giving Jack an order to be nimble - which is unremarkable modern English grammar. "Be he alive or be he dead" is a subjunctive construction, which connotes uncertainty or counterfactuality. The subjunctive is not as commonly used in English as it used to be, but it's still part of standard English grammar. It means "whether he is alive or dead". As for "Fee Fi Fo Fum", WP:WHAAOE: Fee-fi-fo-fum, which gives a few possibilities for its origin, including one from Shakespeare. And according to Jack Be Nimble, jumping over a candle without putting the flame out was once held to bring good luck. --Nicknack009 (talk) 13:02, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

I think it's a little hard to be sure whether "Jack be nimble" is addressed directly to Jack. It could be a third-person imperative, which is expressed with the present subjunctive. --Trovatore (talk) 17:56, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Bear in mind that some candles were and are quite large, particularly those used in churches for permanent lighting rather than individual devotional purposes. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) 13:57, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Meh, the two Jacks, of beanstalk and candlestick fame, are pretty lame in my opinion. Sing a Song of Sixpence is where to find the real action. although grammatically it's pretty prosaic. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:36, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

It's worth pointing out that "Jack" as a name has been frequently used in literature to mean any generic guy, maybe something like "Joe Schmo". Another nursery rhyme example is "This Is the House That Jack Built". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:02, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

"Joe Shmoe and the Beanstalk" sounds fine to me. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:15, 17 May 2016 (UTC) These nursery rhymes often really mean nothing at all, you know.

Right, they mean bupkis, and in that context "Joe Schmo[e] and the Bupkis-stalk" works. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:25, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

... "goat droppings"?? You must be thinking of a more hircine tale.... Martinevans123 (talk) 15:43, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

"Beans". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:57, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

"Beanz Meanz Hanz". Martinevans123 (talk) 20:38, 17 May 2016 (UTC) Buggsy, you're a real scream

Keep in mind that nursery rhymes are for small children, so the words are each kept short, with lots of repetition, for easy learning. "Be he alive, or be he dead" could be written "Whether he's alive or dead", but it wouldn't be as memorable. StuRat (talk) 17:33, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Nor would it be as poetic. For an example of somewhat twisted English, see the Frog poem.[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:36, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Any chance that Fee, Fi, Fo, Fum might be the notes for musicians tuning up, just as we use doh, re, me, fa, soh, la, te, doh, or My Dog Has Fleas today? They do seem to be in descending order of musical note, but I'm no musician so what do I know. Akld guy (talk) 20:34, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

The poor devil. You can get chilli powder for that. But it's only three syllables in Act 3, Scene 4 of King Lear. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:48, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

So that's where it's fum. Another few neurons used up. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:52, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

"Jumping over a candlestick" was common at weddings, with those who were successful being granted good luck. Collect (talk) 14:19, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

And those who were not, were hot. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:48, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

For more on this custom see [3].

Disenfranchised

"Disenfranchised" means unable to vote. But more and more it seems to be used as a synonym for "disadvantaged," "socially marginalized," or "politically alienated." The US media is using it a lot to refer to poor whites who support Donald Trump. Is this correct? 173.17.170.8 (talk) 17:09, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

The term "disenfranchised" means "deprived of civil or electoral privileges."[4] It's often used metaphorically in reference to groups of people who feel they have been "left out" of the electoral process - or, more accurately, that the election didn't go the way they wanted it to. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:14, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

wikt:disenfranchised says "Not represented; especially, not having the right to vote". So, the broader meaning of not having any power in society seems to apply here. For example, pollution is often far worse in poor areas, because the people who live there lack the political power to keep the polluters out, even though they do have the vote. StuRat (talk) 17:18, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Also note that the poor and minorities often are prevented from voting in the US. See voter suppression in the United States. As yet, that article seems light on 2016 examples, but requiring photo ID (which poor people often lack), a permanent address (which the homeless lack), or barring anyone convicted of crime (which is disproportionately minorities), are some current methods. Arranging for long lines in poor and minority areas on election day by understaffing them is another method. StuRat (talk) 17:22, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

think of it as "not having the franchise"...and the right to vote is a kind of franchise...but there are other kinds of franchises..68.48.241.158 (talk) 17:54, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

McDonald's, for example. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:55, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

One of the strongest underlying themes of U.S. politics in recent years is that the wealthy, the well-connected and the insiders wield vastly disproportionate political power. So, even though ordinary working people and middle class people have the right to vote, their votes are far less powerful than they ought to be. This results in a deep sense of disenfranchisement, even if the formal right to vote exists. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:42, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

That's been true for along time, but the effort has accelerated in recent years. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:35, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

We finally seem to be seeing some signs that it might change, as there seems to be an extreme reaction against "establishment candidates" (supporting the rich and powerful) in the US. Hillary might not have been able to fend off Bernie Sanders if not for the superdelegate system that favors establishment candidates, and establishment candidates in the Republican Party never had much of a chance. Trump, while himself rich and powerful, claims to be fighting for the little guy (of course, he flip-flops even more often than a real politician). So, if not this election, we may soon have a populist President who actually does support the little guy over the power brokers. Then the Supreme Court may actually favor the little guy if the President(s) appoint(s) a few judges. For example, repealing that decision that allows local governments to take personal property by eminent domain for no other reason than to increase their tax base. StuRat (talk) 05:21, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

We can only hope. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:28, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Presuming we're not disheartened, anyway. Often a package deal. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:27, May 22, 2016 (UTC)

May 18

Origin

What is the origin and literal meaning of the word 'remember'?--178.106.99.31 (talk) 22:15, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Here is the full explanation:[5] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:33, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

So, Wabbit, it doesnt have any relation to the word dismember ?--178.106.99.31 (talk) 23:18, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

No. The one derives from "memory", the other from "member". I recommend you use that link to look up those words and any others you're curious about. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:15, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

• Well, if dis-member were the opposite to re-member, the latter would describe the surgical procedure of re-attaching what has been re-moved in the former. See member #4. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:48, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

• Sort of like how "pissed off" is not the opposite of "pissed on". In fact they are close synonyms. Because, whenever I am pissed on, I find I am at the same time pissed off... --Jayron32 03:12, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

When you are pissed on, that's the time to piss off...quickly. Akld guy (talk) 04:59, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Sportswriters are aware of this issue, when writing about players who re-sign with their club. Without the hyphen it is a perfect homograph of "resign", which means exactly the opposite. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:01, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Except that, after the word 'resign' you use the word 'from' and not 'with'. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 11:06, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Except that, within a given context, a sentence such as Joe Schmo has re-signed. is valid. Efforts must be made to ensure it doesn't look or sound like "Joe Schmo has resigned". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:37, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Except that, with a name like that he shouldn't have been employed in the first place. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 10:30, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Except now you're no longer content with being racist, sexist, antidisestablishmentarianist, religionist, ageist, homophobist, alcoholist, deletionist, inclusionist, alarmist, anachronist, chauvinist and larpulartist, but have now descended to being a namist. Shame on you. (Nothing personal, just an observation.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:50, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

And that makes you (and sometimes me) a shamist. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:37, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Which is most correct/natural?

• a place I know exists / a place that I know that exists
• a place I know it exists / a place that I know that it exists

--Theurgist (talk) 23:52, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

My first reaction was, it's I know a place/where the music is fine/and the lights are always low...

Why didn't you suggest "a place that I know exists"? That sounds best to me, if I understand your intended meaning correctly. There are other things you could be intending, I suppose (like "there's this place I know, and by the way, it exists") but they would be unusual. --Trovatore (talk) 23:57, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

As for the "other things" you're talking about: All depends on the whole sentence: If it goes like: "The Paradise is a place I know exists", then the "know" refers to the "exists" (i.e. I know it exists), but if the whole sentence goes like: "Everything exists. Therefore, every place exists. therefore, a place I know exists" (period), then the "know" refers to the "place". HOTmag (talk) 01:50, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

See that: "That is often omitted when used to introduce a subordinate clause—"He told me that it is a good read." could just as easily be "He told me it is a good read."" In general, relative pronouns like "that" can be omitted from their conjunction function without much of a change of meaning in a sentence (though there may be subtle differences in emphasis). See this forum post which discusses it well, as does this style guide and this "ask a grammarian" bit on BBC. --Jayron32 13:10, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

"a place I know it exists" doesn't seem to be valid sequence of words. Can you add some context? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 13:18, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

• Neither, for that matter, is "a place that I know that it exists" --Jayron32 16:25, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

I think Jack is correct. However, the "it" could have been useful if the sentence had been of the form: "a place about which I know it exists". HOTmag (talk) 01:50, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

All the examples are intended to mean the same, and all of them are single nominal phrases. "A place I know exists" should be read as "a place whose existence I'm aware of", as in "This is a place I know exists." It shouldn't be read as a complete sentence: "There exists a place that I know."

What I'm interested in is not the omission or non-omission of the subordinating conjunction that, but rather, the presence or absence of a subject ("it") in the last subordinate clause. Trovatore's suggestion, which I appreciate, is in fact another variant of the examples in the first bullet.

Indeed, "a place that exists" does not require another subject: "a place that it exists" and "a place it exists" are simply wrong. But on the other hand, "I know (that) it exists" requires the subject, because "I know exists" is wrong too, and "I know that exists" can be correct only if that acts as a demonstrative pronoun and not as a subordinating conjunction. My question is what happens when these two types of clauses are combined.

So, how about some more examples:

• (This is) a place (which/that) he claims exists
• (These are) things I think matter
• (This is) a service everyone is aware is available
• (He is) a person I have always firmly believed can do that
• (This is) a mechanism I supposed worked
• (This is) a mechanism I was glad worked
• (He is) a person whose neighbours are complaining makes noise

Are none of them valid sequences of words if one inserts "it/they/he" right before the last verb? --Theurgist (talk) 21:53, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

It has to do with the fact that "I know it exists" and "I know that it exists" both use "it" because they are noun clause that require the subject pronoun it; because they are the predicate of the verb "to know". In the case of "a place that exists"; that's not a predicate clause because it isn't even a complete sentence, in that case it's an adjective clause, that modifies the word "place". Completely different grammatical functions which require different forms. --Jayron32 03:10, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

As for your last example: "(He is) a person whose neighbours are complaining makes noise". I suspect the "whose" here is wrong, and should be replaced by "their" "his". Let's look at a simpler example: "He is a man his neighbours are complaining makes noise ".

I have to strongly disagree with your advice, HOTmag. What you've come up with does not even have the dignity [sic] of a run-on sentence. Your suggested "their" and "his" are just wrong. "Whose" is perfectly correct, and I cannot think of any other word that would do there. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:25, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Before I refer to your response, let me ask you: How would you fill in the blank?

1. Mary is a woman (whom) my neighbours know (i.e. Mary is a woman and my neighbours know her).
2. Mary is a woman (whom) Mary's neighbours know (i.e. Mary is a woman and Mary's neighbours know her).
3. He is a man (whom) my neighbours know (i.e. he is a man and my neighbours know him).
4. He is a man (whom) _____ neighbours know (i.e. he is a man and his neighbours know him).

Please do not remove the "(whom)" from the last sentence, just as it can stay in the other sentences.

Back to your response: Please have a look at the following sentences (the second one of which is constructed according to my view):

1. "He is a man, my neighbours are complaining - makes noise".
2. "He is a man, his neighbours are complaining - makes noise".

In my view, the first four words, must be followed by a clause - followed by the last two words, as you can realize by analyzing the first sentence.

However, what you suggest is the following:

1. "He is a person, my neighbours are complaining - makes noise".
2. "He is a person, whose neighbours are complaining - makes noise".

I cannot agree to the form of the second sentence, because its first four words are (surprisingly) not followed by any clause, although they are - in the first sentence.

HOTmag (talk) 07:05, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

As for your original question, Jack of Oz is correct: The "it" should be omitted. However, it should have been added - if the sentence had been of the form: "a place about which I know it exists ". In order for you to understand why your original sentence should not contain the "it", please have a look at the following sentence: "This phenomenon, I know exists in America, is rather interesting. Question: where do I know this phenomenon exists? Answer: In America ". Please note that the question cannot contain the "it": Therefore, its previous sentence should not contain the "it", either. HOTmag (talk) 01:50, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

May 19

Ý (Vietnamese)

Why is Italy in Vietnamese merely a single letter: Ý? --Davidøsk (talk) 17:54, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

It's a contraction taking only the first syllable of the literal Sino-Vietnamese transliteration. It's not unique - a number of other major countries are also known in Vietnamese as a single syllable.

It's similar to the practice historically common in East Asia of contracting the names of Western countries - which for example is why the United States is often called "Mei Guo" in Chinese ("Guo" being "country") and "Beikoku" in Japanese ("koku" being "country"). --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:11, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

They also use 'Merika' in Japan. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 11:03, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

And in Chinese the full name is "Meilijian". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:16, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

May 20

Great Lakes

Is there any particular reason that these lakes are named with the term "Lake" first and the proper name second? In other words, why is it named Lake Erie instead of Erie Lake and so forth? This is the case with all five of the Great Lakes. Most bodies of water, as far as I know, are named with the proper name first and the type of water body second (e.g., Atlantic Ocean, Red Sea, Nile River, etc.). Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:47, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Were the French active in the vicinity in the early colonial days? Akld guy (talk) 04:56, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

File:North America 1748.PNG

Map showing the 1750 possessions of Britain (pink), France (blue), and Spain (green) in contemporary Canada and the United States

Yes, they lost the area in the French and Indian War. StuRat (talk) 04:59, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

It's wider than just the US Great Lakes. There's Lake Victoria, Lake Tanganyika, and Lake Baikal, for example. But, it's a good question as to why, in English, does the word "lake" typically go in front while other bodies of water do the reverse, with some exceptions, like the River Raisin. StuRat (talk) 04:59, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Please cite a reference for the Great Lakes being in the US. --69.159.60.83 (talk) 06:09, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

There are other lakes in the world called "Great Lakes", but the OP said there were 5 and named one as Lake Erie, so that means they meant the US Great Lakes. StuRat (talk) 02:12, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

StuRat, my guess is that this comment refers to the fact that four of the five Great Lakes are shared between the US and Canada. Lake Michigan is the only exception. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:01, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Could be. But I would say that all 5 are in the US, and 4 of them are in Canada, too. StuRat (talk) 02:07, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

River Raisin is only an exception in American, this is pretty much the norm in English, River Thames, River Severn etc etc. Fgf10 (talk) 06:47, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Which might more aptly be river Thames, river Severn. Most Old World river names (like city names) don't need a generic element; but most New World river names are (adjective) River or (commemorative name) River or the like – or (like Mississippi) once were independent proper names but the name has since become more strongly attached to something else. —Tamfang (talk) 08:02, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

(ec) If you look at Category:Lakes of Illinois, Category:Lakes of New Zealand, Category:Lakes of New South Wales and Category:Lakes of Manitoba, it's clear that it's common throughout the anglosphere for some to be X Lake and others to be Lake X. Why any particular lake is called by one format rather than the other is probably pretty hard to track down. In most cases the namers would be dead, and it's doubtful they ever chronicled why they chose one order over the other. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:05, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes. But, as far as I know, this is common only with lakes. And not other bodies of water. Right? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:51, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

In the US, the pattern "Lake X" is generally more common in the east coast states while "X Lake" is generally more common in the rest of the country. See the data here. (Data for Canada is not available for download in the same manner as was used to construct this, as far as I know.)

As to the Great Lakes specifically, they were indeed originally named in French. In the Historical Atlas of Canada by Derek Hayes (2002, ISBN 0-295-98277-2) several maps are reproduced that show some or all the Great Lakes. In particular there is a map in French showing the "Partie Occidentale du Canada ou de la Nouvelle France" (western part of Canada or New France) as engraved by Vincenzo Coronelli and published in 1688. The five lakes are named as follows:

• LAC DE TRACY, ou SUPERIEUR, et LAC DE CONDE´.
• LAC DES ILINOIS ou MICHIGAMI ou LAC DAUPHIN.
• LAC DES HURONS, et KAREGNONDI ou ALGONKINS MICHIGANGE, ou LAC D'ORLEANS.
• LAC ERIE´; ou TEIOCHARONTIONG, et LAC DE CONTY et du CHAT
• LAC FRONTENAC, ou ONTARIO, et SKANIADORIO. ou S.LOUIS

Another map in the same book was drawn in 1678 by Jean-Baptiste-Louis Franquelin; this gives just one name in French each for the five lakes, and four of them are the modern names:

• LAC SVPEPERIVR.
• LAC DES ILINOIS.
• LAC HVRON.
• LAC ERIE´
• LAC ONTARIO.

The weird punctuation, the accents placed after the letters, and the seemingly random use of "et" (and) and "ou" (or) to join alternative names, and the extra PE in one place, are copied here verbatim.

--69.159.60.83 (talk) 06:09, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

A few more datapoints: None of the lakes of England are "Lake X" (aside from some colloquial mistakes such as "Lake Windermere"). Although the Irish, Scottish and Welsh equivalents (Lough, Loch and Llyn) tend to precede the name. MChesterMC (talk) 08:43, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

In England it's common for lakes to have the name last - certainly the most widely - known ones. "Water" invariably comes last - e.g. Southampton Water. "Pond" invariably comes last - e.g. Clapton Pond, Eagle Pond. "Reservoir" invariably follows. "River" seems to follow if the name is descriptive of something, for example New River, Rattlesden River. All Australian river names appear to precede. 78.145.24.30 (talk) 10:22, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Southampton Water isn't a lake - it is a tidal estuary, an inlet of the sea. There is a common trick question in England, which asks "how many lakes are there in the Lake District?" The answer is just one - all except Bassenthwaite Lake being named either -mere or -water. It works for Scotland too, which also has only one lake (Lake of Menteith) - all others being lochs. 86.141.19.154 (talk) 12:05, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

'Nile River' is not idiomatic in UK English; it would be more common to refer to it as the 'River Nile' or just 'the Nile'. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:39, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

• I'm pretty sure the distinctions, in the U.S. at least, are arbitrary. There's no rhyme or reason, even within states, besides the "Lake X form is a bit more common on the East Coast", but even there there are almost no states where "Lake X" is the most common form. We can even look at neighboring lakes, and see confusing patterns. Lake Winnepesaukee and Winnisquam Lake are within a few miles of each other, and have different naming conventions. Same with Lake Gaston and Kerr Lake. There's no pattern or rhyme or reason to it. --Jayron32 11:55, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Quite. Southampton Water is, I believe, the estuary of the River Test. Derwentwater is, however, a lake. In the same way, it is wrong to talk of the Sahara Desert - "sahara" is the Arabic for desert. 78.145.24.30 (talk) 12:23, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

A built-in redundancy, like Mount Fujiyama, Sierra Nevada Mountains, or ATM Machine. For further info, see RAS syndrome. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:30, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

There was a place I lived in in Japan, and nearby there was a 森林公園フォレストパーク, which means 'Forest forest public park forest park.' KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 12:47, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

And let us not forget the La Brea Tar Pits. —Steve Summit (talk) 13:03, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Ah, yes. And another related article is List of tautological place names. Seems to me I've heard the term "Rio Grande River" before. And I've definitely heard of The The Angels Angels baseball team. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:07, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the tautological place names link, BB. I always thought Pendle Hill is a great example of this, with a suffix added as the meaning of the preceding element was lost in the mists of time. BbBrock (talk) 21:49, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

There's just no figuring these things. Consider the "chain of lakes" in Minneapolis: Lake Harriet, Lake Calhoun, Lake of the Isles... and Crystal Lake. Then there's Lake Minnetonka, and the nearby Medicine Lake and Bass Lake. Then up north you have Mille Lacs Lake, which means... can you guess? Thousand Lakes Lake. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:15, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Why is this an "issue" with lakes more so than other water bodies? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:20, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

This question was also asked at Stack Exchange,[6] and they don't know either. The best guess is that the size of the lake has something to do with it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:15, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Note also Billington Sea the smallest Sea on earth. Collect (talk) 21:41, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

New England has a few of these anomalously-named lakes and ponds. See Opechee Bay, for example, which is a pond and not a bay (under any normal definition of "Bay"). --Jayron32 21:58, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

"Ponds" a lot smaller than that one are called "lakes" in Minnesota. (Hence the 10,000.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:15, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Then there's Hampton Roads, which uses an old-fashioned meaning of "road", and which was so named long before there were any "roads", as we think of them, in the area. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:18, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

• Cartographers, as a rule, are as fun, and as prone to ipsa dixit, as anyone. Just trying, when possible, to avoid the River Styx. No one has yet discussed how Julius recognized the Rubicon in whatever patois he spoke, but we'll get there, no doubt. :) Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:33, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
  • By sailing on the Rubiyacht of Omar Khayyam. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:43, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
    • This is the magnificent craft that Bugs is describing. MarnetteD|Talk 15:53, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Etymology of craic further back than Middle Ages

It would appear that the word craic has its etymology in Middle English but the word is not present in Old English. In any case, I suspect there is a link to the Réunionese storytelling expression Kriké ? Kraké ! (and the Carribean variant Krik? Krak!). Réunionese Creole also has the word 'krak' which means jokes or lies and I have read it said that this word has Celtic origins. Does anyone have more details on the ancient origins of this morpheme? Munci (talk) 06:21, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

My American Heritage Dictionary says OE cracian ‘to resound’, from a PIE root apparently meaning ‘to cry hoarsely’. —Tamfang (talk) 08:07, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

It's from Irish 'craic' meaning 'fun' or 'joke'. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 10:57, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

This seems to indicate it comes from protogermanic originally; which isn't to say the word isn't also in Irish; the Irish may have gotten it from the Anglo-Saxons (and not the other way around). --Jayron32 11:11, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Actually, the article on craic says exactly that: "Like many other words over the centuries, crack was borrowed into the Irish language with the Gaelicized spelling craic." With a reference. --Jayron32 11:13, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

I stand corrected, just for the craic. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 12:37, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

May 21

How would Chinese people in the US in the 1920s and 1930s render their names?

Would it be according to Wade Giles? Also what would be the correct rendering of Liu Shijiu (刘世久) in Wade Giles? I've looked at this table and get Liu Shih Chiu. Is that correct? http://library.ust.hk/guides/opac/conversion-tables.html S2sokay (talk) 14:45, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

It is correct, and Chinese people would have used Wade Giles, if they knew how to, as pinyin hadn't caught on yet. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 16:58, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

May 22

Difference between words

There are several words in English for "boundary between land and water": beach, shore, bank, strand, maybe others too. In Finnish there is just one: ranta. What is the difference between the English words? JIP | Talk 07:38, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Beach implies small rocks or sand.[7] Shore is land bordering a large body of water.[8] Bank indicates an earthen incline next to a river.[9] Strand is similar to shore, and while the EO entry doesn't say it, perhaps ranta and strand are connected.[10] Another possible term of interest is "coast", which comes from French and means both the side of the land and the side of a hill, and is used both ways in French.[11] Another term which really needs no explanation is "water's edge". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:29, 22 May 2016 (UTC)