Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2018 December

2018 December

Paradisus Judaeorum

Paradisus Judaeorum (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM) (AfD) (No discussion on closer's talk page)

This MRV is to review the decision/result of the AfD, not the previous RM. So "endorse" here means that the reviewer agrees with the AfD result. If editors want the page move reverted to the previous title, then "overturn and revert page move" would be used to denote that review choice. Review of a deletion discussion that resulted in keep means that "overturn and delete" may also be used. Other choices are listed here. Please note whether or not you were involved with the previous RM or the AfD.

Following a no consensus to move at Talk:Paradisus_Judaeorum#Requested_move_7_November_2018, the AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews was closed as keep and move. I find this problematic on several levels: first, the AfD was a clear forum shopping by an editor who failed to get his move at RM so he tried again at AfD and is already using the move as a reason for major rewrite/deletions (despite 'keep' outcome: [1]). AfD is not a forum for moves, and using it in such a way only leads to continued disruption in the article (I expect to see more warring about what the 'keep and move' really means with regards to article's content). It is unlikely that editors who argued for keep want to see major deletion/rewrite, yet some of those who want to see such changes may argue that move requires such changes. This weird closure is omly an invitation for some people to continue disruption. I believe that the AfD's outcome could lead to a new, dedicated RM where consensus for the move could be re-evaluated without waiting the suggested several months (since the last RM ended just a move ago), but should not be used to overturn a prior RM itself because doing so while acknowledging that the majority was also for keep is creating a confusing situation in the form of 'keep but not really'. So I suggest that the move is undone and a new RM restarted to properly judge consensus for move, without confusion of AfD. PS. I am not starting a discussion on the moving admin's talk page as he himself in closing note suggested this venue as the one for further discussion. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:11, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

• Note Fixed malformed MR request Hhkohh (talk) 01:17, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
• (Involved) Endorse move, though given state of article (extensive quotations of 17th century hate speech and WP:OR of such hate speech) - Overturn and delete (or draftify) would be preferable in my eyes - the references in article are useful, but a significant chunk of content requires WP:TNT. Accusing other editors of misconduct (forum shopping) without notifying them is not appropriate. The AfD was on notability grounds of the anti-Semitic slogan (which Piotrus, in the prior move discussed, argued was distinct from the two-word term and various 16th century "poems" (or per RSes - anti-Semitic tracts)). The prior move discussion did not address notability of the 4-clause anti-Semitic slogan. Editors who argued for the move (as well as several delete (or "move or delete") !votes - Icewhiz, Dweller, Shrike, Catrìona, יניב הורון (Yaniv), and !votes for merge (or move + merge) - K.e.coffman, .E.M.Gregory, Andrew D.)) did so on the basis that the 4-clause anti-Semitic slogan was not notable (in an article that was WP:REFBOMBed with passing references from WP:PRIMARY sources - some of which are virulently anti-Semitic tracts). Editors supporting the move, however, noted that much of the material in the article could be kept under a new title - Paradisus Judaeorum - while also noting a rewrite was required. Thus - the content was deemed partially salvageable under a new title. The consensus at the AfD was clear. AfD is the correct venue to discuss notability of a topic - and once opposers of the prior move discussion asserted that the chosen title was a distinct and separate topic from "Paradisus Judaeorum" (furthermore asserting that a separate article could be created on "Paradisus Judaeorum") - AfD was the correct venue to address the rather serious notability concerns of the chosen title. I will note that the initiator of the move review here argued that the 4-clause anti-Semitic slogan was notable based on an article written in 1937(!) by an anti-Semitic Polish politician who advocated at the time for the mass expulsion of most of Poland's Jews - most of the AfD participants viewed this as questionable and PRIMARY. Icewhiz (talk) 09:35, 9 December 2018 (UTC) Refactored comment to make clear. Icewhiz (talk) 07:51, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Oh for fuck's sake, calling a 17th century (or 16th) satirical poem "hate speech" like you insist on doing is ridiculous. It's almost childish. There is not a single source that refers to the phrase as such. You, and only you, made that up, as part of your POV pushing on this article and topic. Neither are there any sources which refer to it as a "anti-Semitic slogan" (except maybe that one cherry picked Janicka source you managed to drudge up somewhere). You made that up too. Guess what, this may be a shocking revelation to you but the idea of there being such a thing as "hate speech" is a pretty recent invention. Which is why, again, no source makes such an absurd characterization. And for fuck's sake again, the individuals who designed and organized the Museum exhibit under this label are Jewish. The designer, Moshe Rosman is Jewish. The lede historian on the exhibit held under the name is Jewish. The program director, Barbara Kirshenblatt-Gimblett, is Jewish. There are academics and representatives from the Polish Center for Holocaust Research and Jewish Historical Institute on the museum's staff. Hell, Antony Polonsky, whom you insisted we use on an article as an academic source until you found out that he doesn't quite fit in with your POV at which point you started inventing absurd reasons to remove him, he was also the chief historian for the museum.

Yet here you come and try to convince us that all these Jewish academics and scholars are pushing "anti-semitic hate speech". And they're doing this because.... why exactly? Gimme a fucking break. The truth of the matter is that it's actually you who holds an extremist POV, one which is not shared among mainstream scholars regardless of their ethnicity and religion. You are trying to exploit the lack of knowledge about the topic and the general gullibility of average Wikipedians to push your extremist POV by engaging in this hyperbolic scare-mongering. You're hoping that if you just call something "anti-semitic" people will feel compelled to support you or at least not oppose you. But it's all bullshit. This whole hoopla started because the Museum of the History of Polish Jews held an exhibition under the title "paradisus Judaeorum", which somehow offended your feelings because part of this exhibition noted that compared to Western Europe, Poland was a pretty good place for Jews... in the 16th century. And since removing ANY positive material about Poland in regard to Polish-Jewish relations (and of course consistently adding ANY negative material about the same) from Wikipedia has been your consistent WP:AGENDA for the past year+ (briefly interrupted by your topic ban) you first tried to POV the article by misrepresenting sources, and when that didn't work you went running to AfD out of spite.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:43, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

• Endorse As one of the editors who voted "delete or move" I concur: (1) the 4-clause slogan was not notable per Icewhiz and (2) for the article to be successful at its current location, it has to be rewritten. I would also not object to redirecting. Catrìona (talk) 11:10, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

• So to be clear, you endorse the AfD closure, isn't that correct? Paine Ellsworth, ed.  ^put'r there  15:57, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

• Endorse. Correct reading of the discussion and well explained. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:26, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
  • It was not an end run nor a forum shop, as it was a valid AfD nomination. AfD has a higher standing that WP:RM, AfD has always had the option to rename, and anyway, process questions do not limit WP:IAR (the rename demonstrably leads to a better product) or WP:CONSENSUS (evident in the better participated discussion, as the closer noted). —SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:12, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
• Endorse. (uninvolved) Agree with the closer that "A more difficult question is whether there is consensus to move the page to Paradisus Judaeorum." In the RM the choices were to move or not to move; however, in the AfD the choices were to delete or not to delete. And while there was a clear consensus not to delete, whether or not to keep the article as is or to rename it and edit to conform to the new title was less clear. Tough choice yet definitely correct. The upcoming situation will be interesting when further options are considered by editors. Paine Ellsworth, ed.  ^put'r there  12:53, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
• Overturn. - the move to be undone and a new RM restarted due to the confusion and immediate undiscussed rewrite [2], [3], [4] of now moved article by the initial nominator. GizzyCatBella (talk) 14:33, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

  GizzyCatBella participated in the AfD as a "Keep". Icewhiz (talk) 14:40, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

  As noted I initially voted "keep" believing that the article should be under its original title (full proverb) and guessing that if moved, the article might be rewritten entirely. It seems that I was correct. GizzyCatBella (talk) 14:59, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

  Most (if not all) of the move !voters noted that a rewrite (ranging from cleanup to major re-write or event TNT) would be necessary (but that retaining references and some of the content would be useful). Icewhiz (talk) 15:05, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

  "Move" !voters didn't advocate for the removal of every citation [5], [6] specifying the entire poverb and didn't endorse almost complete rewrite of the article nearly instantly [7] after the article has been migrated to the current title. I would like to point out again that "move" nominator and rewriter is the same user (Icewhiz).GizzyCatBella (talk) 04:44, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

• Overturn. The vote was in regards to deletion not to changing of the title.The article should be kept and a new RM started in due time--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:47, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

  MyMoloboaccount was invovled in the AfD - diff. Icewhiz (talk) 15:02, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. To clarify, this MRV is to review the decision/result of the AfD, not the previous RM. So "endorse" here means that the reviewer agrees with the AfD result. If editors want the page move reverted to the previous title, then "overturn" would be used to denote that review choice. To write "endorse", and then to write "the move to be undone" or similar is very confusing. Paine Ellsworth, ed.  ^put'r there  15:21, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
• Overturn - AfD and RM are two different things and shouldn't be mixed up. Especially since there already WAS an RM on the article. This is rewarding disruptive WP:FORUMSHOPPING, on top of being against policy.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:34, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

  Volunteer Marek was involved in the AfD diff.Icewhiz (talk) 07:21, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

  Icewhiz is trying to prejudice the closing of this MR by sniping at people who disagree with him with these little snippets of small text underneath their !votes which is just a continuation of his extensive WP:TENDENTIOUS behaviorVolunteer Marek (talk) 08:03, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

  Or, Icewhiz is just noting what editors have been asked to disclose but just forgot to do so. Editors are asked to say whether or not they were involved as a courtesy to the closer of this MRV, as well as to other commenters. Paine Ellsworth, ed.  ^put'r there  01:27, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

• Overturn (I was not involved in either the RM or AfD discussion.) WP:FORUMSHOPPING at its worst. Consider sanctioning Icewhiz under WP:ARBEE for his disruptive behavior at this article and related articles. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:10, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Sanction him for what, exactly? This isn't forum shopping by any stretch of the imagination. SEMMENDINGER (talk) 15:25, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Could you explain why this is FORUMSHOPPING? Icewhiz's deletion request did not recommend a move, rather deleting the article. AfD is the appropriate venue for when a subject is not notable. Catrìona (talk) 01:49, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

• Overturn. I voted in the AfD, against deletion of the article on "Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews". The decision was not to delete the article. Regrettably, an additional decision was gratuitously made, to move the article to the inappropriate, subject-restrictive title, "Paradisus Judaeorum". The result was flawed as to procedure, and misleading as to the article's subject matter. At the time of the AfD, I suggested, among other things: "Write, if you wish to, a separate article on 'Paradise for the Jews', an expression which may or may not have been cognate with the principal saying under discussion here." I stand by my suggestion. Nihil novi (talk) 03:48, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
• Endorse Correct reading of the consensus the AFD could have many different outcomes per WP:AFD including "renamed/moved to another title" So I don't understand those who oppose the close how it can be "out of process" as there was clear consensus for move -- Shrike (talk) 07:18, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
• Endorse This unusual sequence of events is well explained in the AfD. The AfD had to consider the notability of the term as it was and found it was not notable, but that there was valuable, well sourced material, that related to a broader term. Hence participants tended to !vote for delete or move in some combination. The closing admin had no choice but to follow the consensus. Process was correctly followed ... therefore endorse. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:28, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
• Endorse (note I commended in both previous discussions). Consensus in the AfD was clear that the longer term was not notable and that the sources demonstrate notability for the shorter term only so the article should be moved. If the nominator here regards the AfD was forum shopping (it should actually be interpreted as a relisting of an RM that failed to reach a consensus), then I do not understand why MRV is not also forum shopping? Do we really need discussions in three separate venues in quick succession? Are we going to ANI after this one? Thryduulf (talk) 09:14, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
• Endorse: Dweller and Thryduulf hit the nail on the head. The consensus of the community got it right. "Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews" is not notable. The sources demonstrate notability for "Paradisus Judaeorum". --Guy Macon (talk) 09:40, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
• Endorse: (note I said Move at AFD) I think the available sources for the longer phrase are limited, while the available sources for "Paradisus Judaeorum" are more extensive. Given the limited sourcing for the longer phrase, I think it is best dealt with as a section in the "Paradisus Judaeorum" article. And some of the existing text and refs could be used as a base for such an article, including that section. As such, I support move both at AFD and here. Regarding the "forum-shopping" claim, the reality is there are a lot of people (myself included) who pay more attention to AFD than RM, so raising the issue at AFD was appropriate as a way to get the attention of a larger audience. SJK (talk) 10:36, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
• Endorse (I voted to move at AfD) The original title was NOT adequately referenced in the supporting citations at all. The topic was notable however, so I voted to move to this newly titled page, which more accurately reflects the reference material. SEMMENDINGER (talk) 15:23, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
• Endorse (previously voted "move"). I'm unaware of a policy for dealing with cases where people vote (overwhelmingly) for an option not listed by an OP (eg. "move" in a deletion discussion). However, considering the democratic nature of Wikipedia, I would respect such a vote even if it was unexpected and even unintended. As for double jeopardy - since the second discussion brought new evidence to the table - an in-depth analysis of the sources - jeopardy doesn't apply. François Robere (talk) 16:03, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
• Endorse as an appropriate close and reading of the community consensus. However the community consensus was not correct. As I pointed out at both discussions there are ample references of the kind used in proverb articles to support the proverb part of the article. The discussion was complicated by the feeling that the proverb is utterly anti-Semitic. If that were true it is unlikely the proverb would have been used in the POLIN Museum exhibit, which has a Jewish program director. Piotrus, the history and culture of the Jews in the Commonwealth is almost completely absent from Wikipedia. An article covering the golden age of Judaism in Poland, omitting both the proverb and the term Paradisus Judaeorum, should be here. There are historians of the period who have written in English. As Gershon Hundert points out, there is resistance in the Jewish community to this history, but writing such an article might avoid some of the controversies that plagued this one. After the dust has settled and the context is adequately covered in Wikipedia might be the time to reconsider the proverb. StarryGrandma (talk) 21:31, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
• Overturn AfD and RM are two different things. For a record, I voted against the deletion in the AfD.--Darwinek (talk) 00:20, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
• Endorse Paradisus Judaeorum is a more common term and used sometimes in a positive fashion.Jonney2000 (talk) 00:35, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
• Comment - Regardless of the outcome, could I ask the "Endorse" preferring editors to keep an eye on the article and share their expertise/knowledge to its development, please? Most of you are focusing on the title itself without further analysis what is actually happening after the move [8]. Thank you. GizzyCatBella (talk) 02:02, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
• Overturn (I was not involved in either the RM or AfD discussion.). There are problems with treating an AFD as an RM ex post facto. One, not all participants may have been aware that they were participating in what would be taken as an RM. Two, votes like "move or delete" are incoherent and amount to "if I can't have the title I want, I want the article deleted". Srnec (talk) 04:03, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
• Comment. As the nominator of this discussion, I hope it is clear that my opinion is for overturning. Again, I am recommend that a new RM is started instead. There is indeed consensus for a new, wider RM - but due to confusion of how to interpret various AfD votes, I don't think there consensus for move in the AfD is as clear as some people suggest. If there is clear consensus for move, well, why not confirm it through a proper RM rather than confusing AfD? It is easy to start a new RM, ping everyone who participated in this and prior discussion, and then count simple 'for move' and 'against move' votes. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:13, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

  AfD was the correct forum - as the "Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews" fails notability standards - specifically WP:GNG (not covered in depth in secondary sources) and WP:NOTDIC. That the content of the article could be re-purposed with a re-write to something else ("Paradisus Judaeorum" - a notable two word term), does not make RM the correct venue. Refactoring of articles, as WP:ATD, is quite common in AfD discussions - e.g. WP:BLP1E/WP:BIO1E are commonly re-purposed to the event, non-notable entrepreneurs are re-purposed to their notable founded companies (and vice-versa). The view endorsed by the AfD participants wasn't that the article was notable, but rather that it could be repurposed into something notable. Icewhiz (talk) 07:45, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

"AfD was the correct forum - as the "Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews" fails notability standards" - yeah, except that AfD actually disagreed with you there.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:13, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. One thing I'm seeing here is that overturners are not always clear on their preferred outcome. This is a review of the AfD, which decided to keep and move to Paradisus Judaeorum. Do overturners want to delete? or to revert the move? Just as AfD sometimes dispositions to move an article, this MRV can, in a case like this, decide to "overturn and delete". So it would be more helpful if commenters were a bit more detailed about their preferences. Paine Ellsworth, ed.  ^put'r there  06:23, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
  • I think it is pretty clear that all overturners want to revert the move, not a delete. You may want to ping people so that they clarify their votes. This further illustrates potential confusion through the use of AfD for a RM, which is why I said that the proper outcome should be 'keep and a new RM', not a 'keep and move'. Sigh. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:43, 11 December 2018 (UTC)