Wikipedia:Featured article review/Che Guevara/archive1

Che Guevara

Review commentary

Notified: User:Jimbo Wales, User:Jmabel, User:Polaris999, User:Redthoreau, User:Zleitzen, User:FayssalF, User:205.240.227.15 (blocked since 2006)

Completed the notifications to WP Bio‎, WP Basque,‎ WP Caribbean, WP Cuba‎, WP Argentina‎ and MilHist. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:14, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

This article reached FA status in the spring of 2006. Concerns now include WP:LEAD, WP:SS, WP:EL, and WP:NOT#LINK. In short, the article may no longer met Wikipedia:WIAFA. Feedback and assistance would be greatly appreciated. Mattisse 18:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Please follow the instructions at the top of WP:FAR to notify all involved editors and relevant WikiProjects. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:08, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Note: long-standing concerns on the talk page about NPOV are more serious than the other issues raised above. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:08, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Promoted version per Dr pda prose size script:

File size: 143 kB

Prose size (HTML): 61 kB

References (HTML): 24 kB

Prose size (text only): 42 kB (6963 words)

References (text only): 7 kB

Images: 122 kB

Current version (Feb 23)

File size: 385 kB

Prose size (HTML): 113 kB

References (HTML): 108 kB

Prose size (text only): 69 kB (11599 words)

References (text only): 42 kB

Images: 348 kB

The article is better than 50% larger than the article that was promoted in 2006; it's not unlikely that POV has crept in. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The article has taken an un unbelievable amount of cruft in External links and lists. Citations aren't correctly formatted. There are WP:MSH issues, WP:GTL issues, and WP:ITALICS just on a quick glance, the article will need a lot of basic cleanup to meet crit. 2. In looking at the content of some of the extremely lengthy footnotes, the article size underestimates the content here, since so much is in footnotes. There are fundamental prose and copyedit needs apparent even in the verbose WP:LEAD (example: Opinions on Guevara vary from being prayed to as "Saint Ernesto" by some rural peasants in Bolivia where he was executed.[13] to the view of him as a "ruthless killer" by some Cuban exiles.) This article will need extensive work to be restored to status, and that's without even analyzing it for the POV issues raised in talk page archives. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:31, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

• Question - Since there is an independent article called The Motorcycle Diaries, and since there was no independent section on The Motorcycle Diaries in the original Feature Article as there is now, could the large section that is now devoted to The Motorcycle Diaries be moved there? Mattisse 21:21, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't quite understand the contention that the current article must mirror one from 2 years ago. Articles are fluid and increase with more information with time. As for the Motorcycle diaries I would be ok with moving it if others thought that would be best, but I could also make a case for it staying put as it could be seen as the "watershed" moment in his life. Redthoreau (talk TR 21:57, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
    • The idea is that as the article grows, you move information into subarticles. The main article is to be in summary style. Mattisse 22:33, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
      • That sounds like a good candidate for summary style; a book/movie about him need not occupy a good chunk of his bio, especially when there's already a separate article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:37, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
• I think Matisse should delete all the external links if him or Sandy finds that best, and in compliance with not having them in a FA. Redthoreau (talk TR 21:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Editors should justify the presence of each link per WP:EL. An article that is comprehensive will have little need for external links, as the important content will either be in the article or in the sources cited. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:37, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Thanks Sandy, I see that What Should be Linked states that only "neutral" material should be linked. Thus I believe that at minimum all the opnion analysis should be removed. Redthoreau (talk TR 03:27, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
      • I went ahead and trimmed the external links with the intention of removing non-neutral sources, and non-established media links. I feel that the remaining ones all derive from fairly credible and neutral sources and thus may be able to remain if others agree. Your thoughts will be appreciated. Redthoreau (talk TR 03:27, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
        • Redthoreau, can you justify every external link left, per SandyGeorgia above per WP:EL? To quote SandyGeorgia: An article that is comprehensive will have little need for external links, as the important content will either be in the article or in the sources cited. One of the category discouraged is newslinks. Please justify links to CNN, The New York Times, BBC, etc. If these links are important, then they would be incorporated into the article. I am going to remove the one to Time 100, as it is already a reference in the article. Mattisse 14:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest that it's gonna be a very long and very hard haul before this article is up to professional standards on any of the following: writing, comprehensiveness and neutrality. I first saw this article a mere three or four days before Matisse took it here to FAR. When I saw it, my jaw dropped. This is not FA quality, and with all due respect to the numerous editors whom I'm sure have put many long hours of work into it, it is not even near FA quality.. Firstly (but not most importantly), I would strongly echo Matisse's concerns about WP:LEAD. The lede needs extensive reworking. It is not a summary of the article. Moreover, it makes no mention of controversy regarding Guevara (in direct contradiction of WP:LEAD). Secondly, the hagiographic tone of the article nearly completely disregards WP:NPOV. It does make some glancing mention of controversy regarding Guevara's life, but those remarks are glaring in their brevity and unobtrusiveness, like grains of salt buried far down in the sugary glaze of praise. I hope that participants in this FAR will return time and again to this key point: adhering to NPOV does not mean that some mention is made somewhere in the article of some aspects of controversy. It means instead that after reading the article, I cannot tell whether its authors support or oppose the article's subject. This article fails that test resoundingly. Where is the other point of view, as exemplified by this quote from Terrorist, Sadist, and Left-Wing Saint by John H. Fund (THE AMERICAN SPECTATOR DECEMBER 2007/JANUARY 2008):

Alvaro Vargas Llosa, author of The Che Guevara Myth, says that Che was in reality the architect of Cuba's infamous labor camps, which housed dissidents, gays, and devout Catholics. He was also a sadist who loved to simulate executions as a form of torture. "At every stage of his adult life, his megalomania manifested itself in the predatory urge to take over other people's lives and property, and to abolish their free will." Vargas Llosa writes.

There are other, more trivial problems. For example, the formatting of the refs is haphazard, but this should require only a few minutes' work to correct. But I think this article needs weeks of work. Ling.Nut (talk) 14:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• comment Citing Alva Varga Llosa as an expert on Che Guevara would be like citing James Dobson on the National Organization for Women. Llosa is a long-time rightwing ideologue (just like his father, the Peruvian novelist), who now runs a think-tank out of the Independent Institute, which has a bunch of dubious people on its staff, including S. Fred Singer — the well-known global warming skeptic. it is clear that you are approaching your evaluation from an extremely bias stance for you to even mention his extremely partisan evaluation. Redthoreau (talk TR 18:31, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment - I have to agree in general with the above statement about neutrality. Should this article's name be changed to Che Guevara's icon image? Mattisse 15:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• This article has deteriorated so far in every aspect of WP:WIAFA that the only viable alternative I can see at this point (regardless of whether it retains featured status) is a revert to the featured version, and starting over from there. Whatever new issues that version may have in terms of POV or tighter standards now at FAC, they pale in comparison to the mess that currently exists at that article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
• Agree - That would be the easiest way to take care of the problems. The more I look at the original version, the more I appreciate its writing. Mattisse 17:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• A revert won't take care of all of the problems, but may provide an easier starting place. Reverting that far back causes other cleanup issues (deleted templates and so on), and the article would still need to be brought to current standards and examined for the hagiographic POV issues mentioned by Ling.Nut. I just don't think it's possible to restore this article to status from where it is now, and in its current state, it should have cleanup and POV tags on top regardless of whether it retains featured status. We should currently be warning our readers that what they are seeing on that page is not neutral and not representative of Wiki's best work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• Again I agree. I do not know how to convey to the other editors the seriousness of the mess. Mattisse 17:32, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, there is at least one POV fork. Mattisse 17:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• User:Polaris999 has expressed his agreement with the revert you propose on the article talk page. It would save wasting our time and energy on this version, rather than using it to bring up to standards the older version. Mattisse 17:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• Reverting that far back will necessitate other types of work, and a coordinated effort to first restore/update/fix what's there (in terms of links and templates that will go dead, etc.) before reviewing/adding/changing content. You may want to give it a few days to make sure everyone is on board and that you have solid consensus and a plan for how to proceed with the restoration that a revert will necessitate. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:50, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• User:Polaris999 is discouraged and feels that restoring it and fixing it will only result in it quickly descending again into the mess it is now. For himself, he would prefer to move on. I would be willing to try but I am not an expert on the subject matter. Without User:Polaris999, I could not handle the POV attacks and such. In fact, even with him we probably could not. Perhaps we should just do as he suggests and let go of the article allowing it to face whatever fate awaits it. You probably should put whatever tags you think belong on the article. I am discouraged also. Perhaps if you reverted it, I could see how much work is involved. It could not be worse than it is now. Mattisse 18:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• This is Wiki. You can lead a horse to water and all that. If it can't be fixed via consensus, my advice is to tag it and move along. Working on messy POV articles is never fun. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• What are you guys talking about? I believe the article is fine now and exceeds all wikipedia standards. I feel that there is on overreaction on the suggestion of a few people (whose objectivity on the matter can not be conclusively asserted) and that deep breathes need to be taken before doing something as drastic as reverting to a 2 year old article (erasing all of the contributions of editors over the past 2 years). To me a 2 year old revert is unconscionable and extremely unnecessary and would constitute vandalism, for all intents and purposes.Redthoreau (talk TR 18:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• If that's what you think, then someone should tag the article with {{POV}} and {{cleanup}} since everyone else agrees both are needed. The article is not currently meeting featured standards, and if there isn't a coordinated and concerted effort to restore it, it looks to be on track to lose its star. What a shame to see such destruction; Zleitzen wrote a fine (if possibly slightly POV) article. What is there now is a POV messy article, in bad need of serious cleanup. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• Redthoreau, User:SandyGeorgia's opinion is the one person whose opinion really counts here. Quality management of Feature Articles is her job here at wikipedia. Her opinion is the most important in determining article quality. It is the fact that you will not listen to her that contributes to my feelings of hopelessness. Mattisse 18:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• That's not quite true, Mattisse; I am but one participant in consensus here. Right now, there are four editors who disagree with Red; if others agree, he is against consensus, and that can be dealt with. But I am only one editor here, no more, no less. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• Sorry. I meant that in the sense of knowledge, not power. Mattisse 19:26, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• Comment -- I would be willing to try to fix the article if you revert it. User:Polaris999 may perhaps be persuaded to work on it, although he is discouraged now. Neither of us are willing to work on the current version. Mattisse 18:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• Comment Why don't you make a list of the things you believe are out of compliance if you deem it so, in order for others to use their efforts as well ? Also everyone knows that in a trial you have more than one "expert" evaluate a situation, as the presence of 2 experts in a room, usually means 2 differing opinions. I see a great deal of “sky is falling” but not much analysis on the objects which we should look out for. Also POV is a subjective matter, and I feel that some people who resent Guevara’s legacy, resent the fact that his legacy, and at present, his iconic status, is overwhelmingly a positive one. That is not opinion, but fact, as the overwhelming amount of evidence points out. Although he is not analogous to Gandhi (in the latter’s noble stance of non-violence), for the purpose of analogy, can you imagine criticisms of Gandhi’s wikipedia page being that it does not equally present the “darker side of the man”. Requiring that all of his failures as a person, also be catalogued to the point where basically on paper everyone appears to be half-villain/half hero. Some people are not viewed as a 50/50 split, however, despite the fact that they may be very despised by a select smaller group of the population. Should President Thomas Jefferson’s wikipedia page lead with the sentence: “A President to some, but a slave owning rapist to others” ,,, etc. The article in its current state I believe includes both the positive and negative legacy of the influential figure that Guevara was, and I feel that anyone with more than a ‘cliff-notes’ polarized view of the man, would view it as such. An additional problem I also see with Guevara, is that there is the individual man and then what he has “morphed into”. The two are inexplicably linked and can not be separated from one another with ease – as with most historical figures who later receive a status of veneration. Redthoreau (talk TR 19:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• If who reverts it? Me? I'm not willing to engage in an article where there are massive issues, cleanup and POV. If regular editors aren't willing and able, I'd say tag it and move along. Better yet, wait for more editors to weigh in and see if consensus is overwhelming, in which case, Red would need to adapt. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

If the final consensus is to revert back to the featured version, I am willing to do the revert, my edits to the article itself haven't been particulary significant (mostly consisting of external link cleanup), so there shouldn't be major problems. - Caribbean~H.Q. 00:10, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Question to User:Caribbean H.Q. - Would you also be willing to work on the article after the revert, fixing broken links, templates, etc.? I am willing to help as I can, but I am not technically proficient regarding templates and such. Mattisse 17:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Mattisse. I am a bit of a "templater" and would be glad to work with others, or on my own, to update those as needed. It is mainly the POV issues in which I do not wish to participate. -- Polaris999 (talk) 18:18, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Polaris999, we could calmly focus on a summary style biography of Che Guevara, not adding material unless requested through FAR comments. Some source links will need fixing and upgrading. I am willing to do what I can. We could take the revert and focus purely on FAR objections that are brought up. Red is welcome to help as is anyone who is willing to focus on the goal at hand. Lets get the facts of the basic biography in place. He has been dead for over half a century so not much is new from two years age. Then others can do spin offs on topics as they choose but leaving the main article in summary style. Mattisse 19:10, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Just to make this clear for users who may not be familiar with the terminology, "spin offs" here means what are sometimes referred to as "child articles", "sub-articles", etc. Whatever name is used for them, they are separate, standalone articles, that can be linked to from the main CG article but are not an integral part of the article itself.

Another point that needs to be stressed, I believe, is the importance of accuracy. I think that each editor should be responsible for the accuracy and coherency of what he writes and that if a contribution is found to be lacking in either, or for some other reason is not in compliance with Wikipedia standards, it will be deleted with a reason given on the Talk page. Trying to endlessly correct error-laden contributions is a self-defeating approach as it only encourages careless editors to persevere in their sloppy habits. Your thoughts? -- Polaris999 (talk) 20:25, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. The article should stick to the generally agreed-upon facts using sourcing per WP:V and WP:RS. If it is done now, with SandyGeorgia looking on, we can be assured of sound feedback for the two weeks. If any material is in doubt or not substantially supported in the article, then it goes. No adding of material without vetting the referencing first. Mattisse 21:16, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Being able to work under SandyGeorgia's watchful eye is a convincing reason to proceed as soon as possible. How long do we need to wait to consider that there is a consensus for the revert, which I notice User:Caribbean H.Q. has volunteered to do? -- Polaris999 (talk) 21:32, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

As I count, you, me, SandyGeorgia, and Caribbean H.Q. (by volunteering since he has contributed previously to the article) are in favor. I count one oppose. That is four to one. User:Ling.Nut has not weighed in since the revert was proposed. Mattisse 21:43, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

User: Jmabel has responded that he will not be able to participate because of other demands on his time. User: Zleitzen is currently inactive on WP and it seems probable that he will not be responding. I am inclined to think that if User:Jimbo Wales were planning to participate he would have said so by now since he has responded to messages on his Talk page that are more recent than the one I posted there notifying him of the FAR ... -- Polaris999 (talk) 22:00, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that is the situation. It may be a Don Quixote effort, but I would like to do what we can. At least we could give it a try. In my mind, it is better than letting it continue as it is. We could only improve it under SandyGeorgia's eye. Then, with a clean start, it would be easier to stay on top of it. I admit I had stopped watching it so I was horrified when I realized what happened. I'd be willing to do the revert if User:Caribbean H.Q. doesn't turn up again. Perhaps we could contact him. Mattisse 22:21, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) I am only willing to work on this article if it has a healthy start under FAR auspices. Otherwise, I am not. I am not clear how much longer FAR will give us. Could FAR be extended if it takes much longer to get consensus? Mattisse 23:55, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Mattisse, your comment above and in the edit summary that accompanies it — i.e, "can FAR review time be extended if consensus takes much longer? It will be impossible to work on under other conditions, IMO" — goes directly to the nexus of my concerns about this effort. Even if the CG article is able to maintain FA status following the FAR, once it is "released" back into the public domain I anticipate that it will soon begin to deteriorate again. This article has a long history of attracting "mad hatters" who fill it up with whatever POV happens to suit their fancy. Most alarmingly, the resultant buildup of "cruft", as User:SandyGeorgia has described it above, seems to be increasing at an increasing rate. While User:Jmabel and User:Zleitzen were active, they made extraordinary efforts to control the situation. Once they had departed, the floodgates were open, and everything would seem to indicate that as soon as the FAR is completed those floodgates will be open again because the 3RR means that, in the end, any determined editor can simply inundate and overwhelm those who attempt to control him. -- Polaris999 (talk) 00:34, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I have my reservations also. That is why only if there is time to develop a well established article under FAR, even an FA which I would aim for, will I consider it. I share all of your concerns. I am really tempted to take the whole thing off my watchlist right now and just not know what happens. If it goes on much longer, that is what I will do. We both know how awful it can be. We both have been painfully through it, me more with a prior article with Zleitzen, but we both know. I am becoming very uncertain whether to continue, especially as I see Red continues not to understand. It is very draining. Mattisse 01:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

As long as steady, productive work is underway, FAR is usually extended (that is up to Marskell, but he has never denied it as long as steady progress is being made. On the other hand, if you get mired in edit wars and POV-pushing, he could decide to pull the plug and defeature). As far as my "watchful eye", I can check in every day or two, but can't be actively involved on an hour by hour basis (for example, tonight, I lost several hours to a sockpuppet at FAC). A revert will bring a lot of work, but if you go that route, FAR can be extended, but you've got to be prepared for the work. Almost all of the growth in the article and its TOC since the featured version is unnecessary, and that content should be spun to daughter articles now, if you're going to go the route of revert. Returning to the clean, cruft-free article that was featured would be a good start, but it will still need to be examined for POV. All sides of the Guevara story need to be accorded due weight, not just the rosy myth. With four agreeing, to one against, I'd say you have consensus, but you might still want to give it a day or so to make sure there are no surprises, causing a waste of time. Maybe in the meantime you can decide what to do about all that image cruft the article has taken on; it looks like a picture book, and you'll have to decide which to keep. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Note that although I declined [1] doing the revert so early in the FAR process, if any edit wars explode I will do the revert and try to keep a control of how the content is subsecuently managed, this is not my current intention but if it must be done to maintain the article's quality it will be done. - Caribbean~H.Q. 03:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

You also might consider that there could be a better version to revert to. Maybe spend some time examing these three versions?

• Featured version, March 10, 2006 (42 KB readable prose)
• After main page appearance, June 19, 2006 (46 KB readable prose)
• Polaris did a lot of work throughout June and July 2006, Zleitzenedited once in early August (49 KB readable prose)

After that, it begins to sprawl, with lots of cooks in the kitchen. If you revert, you'll probably need to preserve the current infobox, "stuff" at the bottom of the article, and review current images. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:00, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Reverting to the original FA version is probably an efficient approach, if chaff significantly outweighs wheat among contributions since the FA date. The original info is still in the article hist (has not been erased), plus one could copy/paste the text of the current version to a temporary workpage in one's user space for easy reference, if desired. Ling.Nut (talk) 04:15, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

(ec x 1) Certainly, I read the Featured version some months before the flood of edits that began in January and recon that this version had some statements that needed sources but it doesn't seem to have the several POV issues that have been noted since last summer, I will make sure to the review the other two versions as well. - Caribbean~H.Q. 04:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree with User:Ling.Nut. Prefer this to a drawn out discussion over "which" version to use. Each will have a favorite. Using the version provided by SandayGeorgia is preferable do deciding whose favorite version we should use. Mattisse 04:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Polaris999 and I will wait for the revert. We are too burned out to do anything unless there is a clear purpose. Neither of us feel like working on either article in the hypothetical. We have both had horrible wikipedia experiences on these articles. We are both only tentatively willing if something happens soon. It cannot continue to drag out. User talk:Blnguyen feels an spa is involved and I do too. I am willing to do the revert, but I want to do it now. Polaris999 has many reservations in getting involved again, as do I. The longer we wait, the less likely there is that we will work on it and the more likely Polaris999 will back out. I am unwilling without him. I think by tomorrow, if a decision is not made about the revert I will take it all off my watchlist. Perhaps after then, someone can notify me if there is further relevant news. Mattisse 04:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Unless all of you are committed to a solid month's work, FAR can't really help restore this article. It's up to you all; you're the ones who are knowledgeable in the content area, we can only help, but we can't lead. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:01, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I have looked at all three versions that User: SandyGeorgia has identified as possible rollback points. I would be fine with working on any of them, but have a preference for Zleitzen edits in early August because I would like to preserve as much of Zleitzen's work as possible. If we go back to the original FA article, we will probably end up pasting much of Zleitzen's subsequent work into it, but then his contributions will appear under our names instead of his which does not seem fair. -- Polaris999 (talk) 13:34, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

That version is fine with me as I have the same desire to preserve Zleitzen's work. Mattisse 13:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Viewing the August version in detail, I would reject it as a good starting place. Zleitzen barely worked on the article between the mainpage date and that version, so it isn't mostly his work, it increased the article size with a lot of crufty lists (for example, external websites). I'd prefer either of the first two, but reject the third as crufty and too long and falling into WP:NOT (an indiscriminate collection of links, lists, websites, etc.) Later today, I'll put the beginnings of a revert plan (including the steps needed to restore the article) on the article talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

O.K. Whatever is the least controversial. I originally opted for the version promoted for that reason. Could we put an {{in use}} tage on it when we start? I notice someone added a POV pic just now. Mattisse 15:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Later today I will put up a list of steps, and then if everyone agrees, work can begin (assuming there is no opposition). I'm still getting through my morning watchlist. Reverting is easy; putting the pieces back together will require some coordination. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:23, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I figured reverting was easy as I have a copy of the promoted version in my sandbox. There are broken/dead references and pictures have been deleted, so those need to be fixed. Plus some references are not up to snuff and need to be upgraded. Is that what you mean by "putting the pieces back together"? And, of course, we will address any POV issues. Mattisse 15:41, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I will add it to the talk page later; the FAR need not go into detail that can be covered on talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:11, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen a reversion such as is going to be done to the CG article and am wondering if someone could please explain to me whether the Talk page and the Talk archives will be preserved as they are now, or will they also be rolled back? -- Polaris999 (talk) 16:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

This can be discussed and explained on talk; the FAR page need not go into detail. I will get there as soon as I can, but this page keeps popping on my watchlist :-) Yes, the talk page is preserved, and no, we don't need Mattisse's sandbox version; reverting is not rocket science. Someone may want to save the current version in a sandbox so it can be accsessed in the future. Now, can we please resume these details on the article talk page, and not clutter the FAR, as others will need to read through this page in the future ? The FAR is where we discuss whether the article meets WP:WIAFA and needs to be removed from WP:FA. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:34, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Adding link to steps on article talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok all steps have been taken and so far only one user has opposed the revert, I will be taking action tommorow if nothing changes. Polaris there have been simmilar reverts in Featured Articles, the latest one that comes to my mind is Link (Legend of Zelda). - Caribbean~H.Q. 03:03, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

"Taking action tomorrow"? Did you see that all talk page participants have already agreed to an orderly plan to revert and restore?[2] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we have a plan after talk page discussion over who will do what. Sandy is going to do the revert itself. Mattisse 13:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

P.S. You are welcome, of course, to join the talk page discussion! Please do. Mattisse 13:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

You should become aware of the relevant thread on my talk page, I am familiar with the plan. - Caribbean~H.Q. 18:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I've decided to stick with my initial instincts and bow out; it's a difficult situation, but I hope the article will pull through and retain status. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, I no longer support the target revert date of March 2006, as only now have I realized (thru articlestats) that the target revert version does not include the work Zleitzen put in to the article. Zleitzen's work on the article began after that date, so my assumption that a revert to the featured version would be the fastest way to recover the work Zleitzen put into the article, and build from there, were incorrect. Certainly, the article has seriously deteriorated since he stopped editing in July 2007, but the March 2006 target isn't necessarily the best revert target, as Zleitzen's improvements began in August 2006. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:12, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Please remember that anything added on or after June 8, 2007 was the result of the POV tag added by Jimmy Wales and was part of what became a revert war and not reality reflective of the careful work of Zleitzen. These were merely fruitless attempts to restore previous wording in the article. Then the article was locked down for a month. So I would not count anything on or after June 8 as important regarding Zleitzen's work. Mattisse 16:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

On checking revision history of 2007, all but a couple edits made by Zleitzen were reversions (almost all). In addition there are two or three corrections of mess ups caused by someone's addition of material by restoring previous material and not "contributions" to the further enhancement of the article by Zleitzen. Mattisse 17:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

My verson of the history shows a few trivial edits in July, and none thereafter in 2006. In April, May and June 2006, Zleitzen did not edit. Mattisse 17:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

In fact, my version of the edit history shows Zleitzen did not edit the article in January, February or March of 2006 either. Am I looking in the wrong place? His personal contribution history does not show edits to the article then either. I am confused. Mattisse 17:39, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Mattisse, you are correct. That is why I had supported the latest version of the three that SandyGeorgia originally suggested for the "target" (early August) as it contained some of Zleitzen's edits. However, after you and I had expressed our preference for that version, she said that she had changed her mind and the early August version was no longer acceptable to her and that we would have to choose between June 19, 2006 and March 10, 2006 versions. -- Polaris999 (talk) 19:39, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• I applaud Sandy's instincts; even appearances of COI should be avoided.
• All sides here should bear in mind Knucmo2's third law: Attempts to change POV articles to NPOV invariably result from a different POV. (Like the rest of Raul's laws, this exaggeration requires several handfuls of salt; but there's meat all the same.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:10, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
• Diffs:
  • March to June
  • June to August
  • August 2006 to FAR Notice
  • FAR notice to present
    • August 2006 to present

Unfortunately my browser crashes in trying to look at the diffs. I am not sure what point you are making when looking at the one diff my browser could handle. Could you be more specific? Mattisse 19:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

These were largely for my own use, and anyone else who cared; I really don't see much difference between Sandy's three preferred versions and the state when it was put under review. But I have not done close comparison. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:28, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - we have reduced artticle size 89 kilobytes long. Mattisse 05:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - I am bowing out from editing the article further, as I realize that SandyGeorgia and others who counseled against the impossible POV problems were right in my case. I have done what I can. As changes are no longer being discussed on the talk page but are being done unilaterally, I have no choice. There is no longer an atmosphere of collaboration. User:Polaris999 and User:Redthoreau will carry on. Mattisse 19:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - User:Polaris999 will not carry on. --Polaris999 (talk) 05:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Disputed Neutrality

The article now has a “Neutrality in Dispute” tag (which I disagree with, but nonetheless) ... for those that do dispute the neutrality of the article in it's current form ... what are some of the statements in the article that you believe compromise it's neutrality? Or represent a particular editor’s POV? And be very specific with exact quotes ... no generalities which will not be helpful. Also if you dispute a particular statement ... provide a “retranslation” for how you believe the same statement can be made to imply greater neutrality. If you believe a statement should be removed from the article let us know which one and why you feel justified in calling for its removal? Redthoreau (talk TR 04:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

• Drive-by comment about the Cuba section The "Cuba" section could use some reorganization so that the paragraphs are chronological. More context is needed about his roles within the Cuban government (and why are the dates of his appointments in footnotes? Wouldn't they be better and more helpful to the reader to just integrate them into the main text?) A copy-edit is needed: "Guevara later served as Minister of Industries, in which post he helped", "...would drive economic growth, all that was needed was will". In my opinion, the section should discuss more about his role in the "great debate" of moral vs. material incentives. He was a vocal advocate of "moral incentives", and his philosophical musings during this time were certainly influential in Cuba, if not altogether successful in getting Cuba to adopt his particular economic views. "Guevara played a key role in bringing to Cuba the Soviet nuclear-armed ballistic missiles..." Really? What was this key role? Explain! BuddingJournalist 05:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Please change Cuevara: to Guevara —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.149.2 (talk) 19:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Following the recent events I think it will not be possible to resolve any of the concerns presented here, the article is currently protected from editing due to edit warring wich obviously conflicts with the stability criteria and the situation has only gotten worse since protection, there appears to be no hope of keeping this listed as a FA. - Caribbean~H.Q. 18:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are POV (1d), focus (4), referencing (1c), and formatting (2). Marskell (talk) 19:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Marskell, can you please provide some more elaboration on these issues. I am willing to work diligently to address all of your concerns; however that would be more easily accomplished with more specificity. Thanks. Redthoreau (talk TR 22:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

To all Editors

Where do things stand?

To the myriad of editors who have commented on this page, and who have made suggestions, I am sending out a request to have you all view the newest version of the article (as of March 27 - One month after the FAR review into effect) ... and please update your critiques, suggestions, criticisms, etc. The article has had considerable modifications, been drastically reduced in size, gone through extensive grammatical and word editing, and had a good deal of "excess" content removed, etc over the last month (thanks to the hard work of several editors). When comparing the two versions, the improvement I believe is clear from when the review went into effect. To view the difference ...March 27th 08 version ----vs---- Feb 23, 08 Version = when the Review was ordered. For comparison also see the version which originally received FA status ---> March 10, 2006. It would be my contention that the current version at least exceeds the quality of the original FA version, but it is the collective view that matters here. So please make your opinion known as it is appreciated. Redthoreau (talk TR 19:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Place to update critiques as of March 27 (one month later)

Since the article has been altered so drastically since the original review ... I am creating this new section to voice those concerns about the current March 27th version of the article. Thank you and please feel free to make any and all suggestions. Also specifics are appreciated as they will allow editors a chance to rectify your specific concern. Redthoreau (talk TR 19:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Continuation of Neutrality and Cleanup ???

Since considerable edits and alterations have been made to the article in the past month since the institution of both of these tags, I feel it is prudent to re-examine their validity and gage whether editors still have specific concerns in relation to the either of these issues in the article. If you are an editor who does, and thus feel the tags should remain, please state so below and justify your reasoning. Also if you believe so, make suggestions on how your specific concerns could be alleviated. Thank you. Redthoreau (talk TR 23:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Restored

I've taken the liberty to read both versions of the article from over the last few months and I have to say that it has degraded considerably and has unfortunately been the subject of over editing which has affected the tone and balance of the article. I've restored it in part whilst removing the overly long external links and media which is now in a sister article but if it is to be condensed considerably (which it needs to) this should be done properly and without affecting the real meat of the article. It should be fairly straighforward to condense it again and try with effort to retain the balance and important points of the article. This is the best solution I believe. It is very unfortunate to see an article erode like this. I can imagine there will be people outraged and will try to revert. But I genuinely believe this is best step to keep the FA. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ ^$1,000,000? 15:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

• Remove The talk page discussion is very active, and the diffs provided above and elsewhere indicate substantial stability issues. The article is bloated with detail which could be siphoned off to daughter articles. Some sentences are unclear in terms of sourcing, relevancy, and whether such details are disputed or not. For example, it shouldn't be necessary to have a 300-word footnote quoting numerous sources for whether or not he had a medic degree. I don't think that these issues can be worked out over the course of a FAR. FAR works best when there is little controversy and a single or a small band of editors work diligently to improve an article. Often, FARs like this one have ended in acrimony. On balance, I think it's better to break this article away from this process and let its regular editors work out the article's problems over a longer timespan. DrKiernan (talk) 16:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

• Remove Not FA material. Here are just a sample of the many problems plaguing this article. Also interspersed are some suggestions and questions.
  • Why does the article spend so much time explaining "rough" in a footnote from the lead? Surely, his travels through South America can be properly detailed in the body of text, and trivial information (such as "Conveyances used" and "nights spent in") can be eliminated. There are also no sources given for this. Where'd that "definition" come from, and why is it even needed? "It is hoped that..."?
  • Is there a compelling reason to detail his family tree (and in such confusing fashion)? Seems like a rather large digression from the main subject.
  • "This statement in a letter written in Costa Rica on December 10, 1953 is important because it proves that..." We should be very careful with statements like this. How about ascribing this to some scholar ("According to ____, this letter proves that")?
  • "by Jon Lee Anderson" Introduce him here on first use to provide context to the reader instead of later.
  • "he would have to affiliate himself with the Communist Party of Guatemala." Explain further! Why did he not want to affiliate himself with them?
  • "At that point, he turned down a free seat on a flight back to Argentina..." Again, explain further. An FA-quality biography should do more than just narrate the choices of its subject. It should seek to explain (with proper sourcing) the possible motivations behind such choices. This, of course, does not mean that we should present motivations as fact when there is scholarly doubt; attribution ("according to" is your friend) is necessary.
  • "It was during this time in June 1955" Redundant prose, no?
  • What's going on in this sentence? "...a Comandante (English translation: Major), respected by his comrades in arms for his courage and military prowess,[17] he gained a reputation for bravery and military prowess second only to Fidel Castro himself." " Note the orphaned quotation mark. Also, why not just "(major)"? Readers will understand that that is an English translation.
  • "high in the Sierra Maestra" While I know what the Sierra Maestra is, some readers may not. A link would be quite useful here. Please double check that the article is not assuming knowledge such as this in other places too.
  • "Though wishing to push the battlefront forward and frustrated by his more stationary role, Guevara spent the period developing contacts with sympathetic locals." "Though" does not work here. Also, the clauses in this sentence imply a connection, but ideas do not seem to be connected.
  • "He also conducted a brief relationship with eighteen-year-old Zoila Rodríguez..." The source for this is broken. (http://ww23.rr.com/index.php?origURL=http://www.fenix.islagrande.cu)
  • "Of note, Che..."
  • "It should be stated, however, that the aforementioned José Vilasuso..."
  • "I am innocent." Reason for italics?
  • "12 June 1959" Why the sudden change to this date format? And unlinked?
  • "Guevara also travels as head of an official delegation" Why the sudden use of present tense in this paragraph?
  • "Later, Guevara..." Surely, it would be more informative to give the date here in the main text body rather than hide it in a footnote for some reason?
  • "He believed that volunteer work and dedication of workers would drive economic growth, all that was needed was will." Huh?
  • "Time was also set aside to write several publications." Why the passive, when the active works perfectly well and sounds so much better?
  • My above critique of the Cuba section still stands: The "Cuba" section could use some reorganization so that the paragraphs are chronological. More context is needed about his roles within the Cuban government (and why are the dates of his appointments in footnotes? Wouldn't they be better and more helpful to the reader to just integrate them into the main text?) A copy-edit is needed: "Guevara later served as Minister of Industries, in which post he helped", "...would drive economic growth, all that was needed was will". In my opinion, the section should discuss more about his role in the "great debate" of moral vs. material incentives. He was a vocal advocate of "moral incentives", and his philosophical musings during this time were certainly influential in Cuba, if not altogether successful in getting Cuba to adopt his particular economic views. "Guevara played a key role in bringing to Cuba the Soviet nuclear-armed ballistic missiles..." Really? What was this key role? Explain!
  • "Some saw Guevara as the simultaneously glamorous and austere model of that "new man."" Smells like a weasel.
  • "arguing that conditions in the various Latin American countries that had been under consideration for the possible establishment of guerrilla focos were not yet optimal." I have a feeling this is sourced incorrectly.
  • "Guevara previously in August of 1964 laid out why..." Explain. In a speech? In writing?
  • "Although Guevara was thirty-seven at the time and had no formal military training..." What's the purpose of this paragraph? It seems like this is leading to something significant, but eventually goes nowhere.
  • I am surprised that the Congo section does not rely on Piero Gleijeses' seminal Conflicting Missions: Havana, Washington, and Africa, 1959-1976. Probably the most comprehensively researched account of Cuba's foray into Africa. Consider relying on the many documents in Gleijeses as research for this section.
  • ""He was a big man - well built..." Why the italics?
  • Why are there two separate footnote styles?
  • Some examples of where citations should be provided but none are:
    • "He was an enthusiastic and eclectic reader, with interests ranging from adventure classics by Jack London, Emilio Salgari, and Jules Verne to essays on sexuality by Sigmund Freud and treatises on social philosophy by Bertrand Russell." Something so specific needs a source.
    • "It was during this period that he acquired his famous nickname, "Che"..."
    • The last half of the fourth paragraph of "Guatemala".
  • References are not formatted with any consistency.
  • Questionable sources, including http://www.geocities.com/madmikehoare/, http://ar.geocities.com/carloseadrake/AJEDREZ/che.htm, http://urumelb.tripod.com/che/biografia-del-che-guevara.htm, etc.
  • Numerous dead links.
  • Please check that all images have proper source information (many that are presumably copied from another website are missing URLs), use the correct permissions tag, and have correct fair use rationales where applicable (for example, the Der Spiegel cover image does not have a fair use rationale for this article).
  • Article does not conform to MOS standards, and the text's formatting is not consistent. In particular: superscript citations should have no space between them and punctuation, and should be placed after punctuation; spacing around em dashes is not consistent; currencies are not properly formatted; hyphens used instead of en dashes.
  • External links need clean up. The numerous links to photo galleries of him really serve no purpose. Linking to a collection of archival footage of him would be much better than linking to individual videos clips. That being said, linking to copyright violations is a big no-no. In fact, I can't see a good reason for any of the links to be there. Can any of those be justified?
  • In general the article suffers from inconsistency, whether it be in formatting, or more importantly, prose. In some areas, the article reads quite well and flows like a well-written biography. However, many times, the text will suddenly jump to a completely different tone and subject in the middle of sections. BuddingJournalist 18:58, 28 March 2008 (UTC)