Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Szczuczyn pogrom

Szczuczyn pogrom

Szczuczyn pogrom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Highly problematic, WP:OR/WP:N issues. No reliable sources discuss 'Szczuczyn pogrom' (pl. 'Pogrom w Szczuczynie'). While it does appear that there were some crimes committed on Jews in that region ([1]) it does not seem likely that this crime was notable, nor that this is the correct term for it. Pl wiki uses the term 'crime', not 'pogrom', see pl:Szczuczyn_(województwo_podlaskie)#Zbrodnia_w_Szczuczynie Naming aside, I am not sure if the crime is notable, most related publications talk about the related 'Bzura crime' (pl:Mord w Bzurach, [2], [3]), and the events in Szczuczyn did not get enough coverage. The article makes some claims about a wider pogrom (100 deaths) but I cannot find source to support that claim. It is likely the author confused time and place of several other events. In either case I think it qualifies for deletion due to mistakes/OR/N, or plain WP:TNT mess. Ping User:Poeticbent. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:31, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. ^{Babymissfortune} 09:49, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. ^{Babymissfortune} 09:49, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. ^{Babymissfortune} 09:50, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. ^{Babymissfortune} 09:50, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions. ^{Babymissfortune} 09:50, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. The sole question here is whether to use massacre or pogrom (both are used by sources). Polish POV, as reflected by Polish wikipedia, is not a source for anything (The Polish government is attempting to rewrite history - denying the complicity of Poles in the holocaust, and attempting to outlaw the term "Polish death camp" - Poland's New Government Looks to Rewrite Polish Role in the Holocaust). There are ample sources on the massacre/pogrom in Szczuczyn by Poles prior to the German occupation, e.g. - [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9]. After the Germans bypassed the town on their way foward, the locals killed some ~300 Jews by an axe wielding mob on 28 June, killed ~100 jews on 24 July, +possibly some other incidents (e.g. the murder of the 11 women farm hands - not sure if this is the same Szczuczyn), leaving ~600 Jews for the Germans to kill in August (and pack the remaining Jews into a ghetto, and subsequently off (fairly early) to Treblinka extermination camp - AFAIK there were very few survivors from Szczuczyn (they did however cobble together a Yizkor book with more details - [10]) - the "efficiency" in 1941-2 perhaps reduced the amount of coverage - which still reaches GNG).Icewhiz (talk) 10:21, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

• Note the place has several variant spellings in Yiddish/Hebrew as well as a town in present day Belarus with the same name in Polish (Shchuchyn in enwiki per translit from Belarussian) where circumstances were different. Very few survived Szczuczyn - those who did mostly left (voluntarily or forcibly) in 1939-41 (during the Soviet occupation), some Hebrew sources - Yad Vashem entry, Polish Jewish heritage center entry, yizkor book, book by a survivor (online version), who left eastwards by covers the town in an appendix.Icewhiz (talk) 11:06, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

• Also - Kopstein, Jeffrey S., and Jason Wittenberg. "Deadly communities: Local political milieus and the persecution of Jews in occupied Poland." Comparative Political Studies 44.3 (2011): 259-283. - that discusses the events as a pogrom (referring to the Chaye Golding PRIMARY letter that is questioned in the article at present) and discusses the motivations and causes leading the Poles to massacre the Jews.Icewhiz (talk) 11:22, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

• In terms of completeness, and I'm bringing this up due to the nom asserting the Polish Wikipedia (While it does appear that there were some crimes committed on Jews in that region ([11]) it does not seem likely that this crime was notable, nor that this is the correct term for it. Pl wiki uses the term 'crime', not 'pogrom', see pl:Szczuczyn_(województwo_podlaskie)#Zbrodnia_w_Szczuczynie as a source (the POV of which I've commented above) - this is described in length in hewiki entry on town(towns with little content on hewiki other than the massacres/Jewish history don't always get a standalone massacre), ruwiki entry on the Pogrom, and uawiki entry on the Pogrom. So we have 3 at least cross-wikis here. Perhaps someone should update the Polish wikipedia entry on the town (assuming it is still legal (in Poland) to do so)?Icewhiz (talk) 13:33, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

• Keep - Icewhiz has shown enough RS to establish notability. The article needs a lot of work but definitely appears to have notability. - Galatz^Talk 12:07, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
• Keep As discussed above, notability has been demonstrated. The proper naming and transliteration of Polish orthography needs to be addressed and further sourcing added to the article. Alansohn (talk) 13:27, 5 December 2017 (UTC)