Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nori Bunasawa

Nori Bunasawa

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Nori Bunasawa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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The article seems to have started out as draft created by 110347nbtough in November 2020, who subsequently seemed to claim they were Bunasawa himself over on Wikimedia Commons here and here. The draft was then approved by DN27ND about a month later, even though the DN27ND account was only four days old and seems to have no experience as an WP:AFC reviewer. Moreover, DN27ND is an WP:SPA whose primary focus on English Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons and Japanese Wikipedia has been creating/editing content about Bunasawa; in other words, it seems that the account was specifically and only created for that purpose.

I wasn't sure about the subject's Wikipedia notablity per WP:BIO and asked about the article at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Martial arts#Nori Bunasawa. DN27ND was pinged into the discussion but never responded. It was then suggested on my user talk page that the article be nominated for deletion. I tried some more WP:BEFORE but found nothing resembling significant coverage. I also tried looking at the Japanese Wikipedia article ja:樗沢憲昭 and the Egyptian Arabic Wikiepdia article arz:نورى_بوناساوا but found nothing resembling significant coverage being cited in either of them. -- Marchjuly (talk) 12:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. Marchjuly (talk) 12:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Marchjuly (talk) 12:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. Marchjuly (talk) 12:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Olympics-related deletion discussions. Marchjuly (talk) 12:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
• Keep Potential COI issues aside, the subject evidently seems to be a notable coach at Olympic and World Championship level, and for US colleges. Other pursuits as a magazine publisher/author and film consultant (?) would probably not rise to notability themselves, but the coverage for all three careers being mostly in 50+ year old newspapers – paired with the subject being otherwise covered by not only non-English, but non-Latin-alphabet, media – would be the AGF reason for fewer substantial sources (which is satisfactory here). The article could do with some clean-up, but from a glancing view I would also say it is not short on sources for its coverage, and that the coverage generally indicates notability. Kingsif (talk) 13:39, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

There is no conflict of interest. I'm not getting paid by Bunasawa. In order to get leads on sources and information, we do have a working relationship (as a reporter would on their subject) where I could reach out and obtain information. I do have drafts of other judokas in the works but am working on securing their contact information in order to get additional leads to sources and information.

There are multiple sources online in various languages (English, Japanese, Russian, etc.) which indicates notability.

Bunasawa's involvement as a leader of judo in the USA

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2016/may/12/ichiban-sports-complex-shares-strange-s/

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=qNUDAAAAMBAJ&q=bunasawa&pg=PA38&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=bunasawa&f=false

Bunasawa as a co-novelist

https://www.abebooks.com/9780964898424/Toughest-Man-Who-Lived-Nori-096489842X/plp#:~:text=A%20book%20about%20Conde%20Koma,force%20in%20the%20martial%20arts.

Bunasawa's involvement in "Dead or Alive"

https://www.judoinside.com/judoka/90786/Noriaki_Bunasawa/judo-career

Bunasawa and José Padilha

https://www.instagram.com/p/Crg9KAmBek5/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

José Padilha as the director on the BJJ-Judo movie project

https://www.imdb.com/news/ni62362469/

https://about.netflix.com/en/news/jos%C3%A9-padilha-attached-to-write-and-direct-feature-film-dead-or-alive-with-greg-silvermans-stampede-for-netflix

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/narcos-director-jose-padilha-tackling-netflix-jiu-jitsu-movie-dead-alive-1181926/

Nori Bunasawa's involvement in the movie industry

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm12094236/

Russian sources on Bunasawa's movies

https://www.kinopoisk.ru/film/4294861/?utm_referrer=www.google.com

https://en.kinorium.com/2680888/cast/

Japanese sources on Bunasawa's accomplishment and career

Shindo, Kenichi (October 3, 2020). "青春スクロール 市立浦和高校". Asahi Shimbun.

Kudo, Raisuke (September 10, 1969). "日本代表決まる". The Judo Shimbun.

https://www.judo-ch.jp/result/ajsc/men1970.shtml

Russian news media company reporting on Bunasawa's comments and opinions

https://sputniknews.jp/20190902/6634165.html

Bunasawa is notable for his involvement in the sport of judo and for his involvement in the movie industry.

There are no COI issues and I sent him a draft on the article as a courtesy, in order to have a working relationship with him for leads on additional sources and for information regarding judo sports figures of which there will be wiki articles published in the future. DN27ND (talk) 05:03, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I also advised Bunasawa and his newspaper/magazine publishing team to create a wikipedia account in order for them to release some of the photos that they own to wikimedia commons. DN27ND (talk) 05:57, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I received information that Nori Bunasawa and his newspaper/magazine publishing company owns the photos that he uploaded and that were deleted off of wikimedia commons. DN27ND (talk) 06:00, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

And that he is in the process of consulting with his lawyers based in the USA. DN27ND (talk) 06:02, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Being paid is not the only criterion for conflict of interest. See WP:EXTERNALREL. I think the fact that you have a working relationship with this person and especially that you showed the subject of the article a draft itself (presumably for feedback, considering you asked for leads on missing info) is concerning.

The tone in the article has issues with WP:WTW; "dream team", "talented group", "further his education" are unencyclopedic and lean towards WP:PUFFERY.

Whether or not there actually is a COI is debatable, but even the scent of one can ruin your credibility on Wikipedia. You really should be more cautious in future. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 09:33, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

"dream team" is a common phrase that was originally used to describe the 1992 Basketball Olympic team which swept the competition, and then has been adapted by culture to apply to various sports and teams to mean a team that has won by a large margin over opponents. Given the context and the results of the 1969 World Judo Championships in Mexico city, (this only happed twice in the history of the sport) this is an appropriate phrase to use to describe the events.

The phrase is also used in other wikipedia articles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_men%27s_national_basketball_team#Dream_Team_II

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_Dream_Team

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_men%27s_national_sitting_volleyball_team

and the list goes on:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Team

Would it be puffery to describe the 1992 US Olympic dream team as "talented"? Or would it be appropriate to describe any other sports team as talented on wikipedia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team

"Opposing teams were nonetheless overwhelmed by the talent of the American roster, losing by an average of 43.8 points per game"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_men%27s_national_basketball_team#Dream_Team_II

"The team assembled by USA Basketball for the tournament in Barcelona in 1992 was one of the most illustrious collections of talent assembled in the history of international sport"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team

"USA Basketball officials sought to construct the team dubbed Dream Team III (Dream Team II was the moniker of the lesser-known 1994 FIBA World Championship team) with a winning combination of veteran players from the 1992 Dream Team that won the gold medal in Barcelona and some of the league's best young talent."

"When the first ten players of the 1996 United States Men's national basketball team roster were announced in the summer of 1995, that young talent, and first-time Olympians, included the likes of Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, Shaquille O'Neal, and Gary Payton"

Regarding the phrase "further his education", there are sources that Bunasawa attended these universities after receiving a bachelors degree. If that isn't further one's education, then what is?

Are you saying that journalists never show their subjects a draft to ensure the correct sequence of events?

Please advise. DN27ND (talk) 11:33, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

We're not journalists. Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWSPAPER. We're actually allowed to describe people as talented, but not in Wikipedia's voice per WP:NPOV. You have to attribute those kinds of opinions to notable people, like "journalist x described y as talented". 104.232.119.107 (talk) 13:25, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Also "Dream Team" I can concede on, but other flowery wordings I'm relatively confident in. When you're already bordering on having a COI, you should be paranoid about writing stuff that borders on excessively flattering or flowery, but you're not doing adequate due diligence. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 13:29, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

The selection of the word "talent" in that context was to summarize the accomplishments of those selected to be on the 1969 Japan World Judo team and in that particular year. How else would you summarize a collection of people that had multiple world titles, and had multiple Olympic gold medals? In retrospect, even most of the alternatives selected as backups went on to win world titles in subsequent championships. To choose the "talented" word, is this not appropriate considering the results that these players had?

Considering the results of sporting competitions, is it "flowery" to describe Lebron James, Michael Jordan, Tom Brady, Cristiano Ronaldo, Lionel Messi, Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, etc., as talented without having to say "journalist x described y as talented".?These sporting figures have won multiple world and Olympic titles in their respective sport.

At the end of the day, we are not journalist but the human aspect still applies. Courtesy and respect towards one's subject goes a long way. Just because a writer chooses to show courtesy and respect towards the subject he is writing about, it doesn't mean there is a COI.

If a person chooses to take more college courses after achieving a Bachelor's degree, how would you describe that if not "furthering his education" ? There is newspaper evidence that Bunasawa was taking more university level courses while simultaneously coaching the varsity judo team.

Could you give other examples of "flowery" wording from the article? DN27ND (talk) 18:21, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

There is also no "personal, religious, political, academic, legal, or financial" COI. It is common in journalism to keep good relationships (ie protection of anonymity of whistleblowers) with one's subjects/sources in order to further obtain information from them. There is precedence (especially in sports) of subjects denying access of information to journalists who may be rude, disrespectful, etc. Some of the information taken from newspaper sources, sports media sources (ie ESPN) require journalists to be able to contact sports figures for information. DN27ND (talk) 11:44, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Per above, we're not journalists 104.232.119.107 (talk) 13:30, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

We are not journalists. The info on wikipedia articles are not primary sources (birth certificates, actual signed contracts, actual college diplomas, identity cards, actual competition brackets etc). These are citations to newspapers and magazines, which are written by sports journalists or reporters. These are secondary and tertiary sources.

If wikipedia contributors are able to use primary sources, it would make writing these articles easier and actually more accurate (since I could just upload the proof)

Even though we are not journalist, having courtesy and respect towards one's subject could yield leads to information which would make summarizing events easier and more accurate. DN27ND (talk) 18:38, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Since wikipedia contributors aren't allowed to upload primary sources, in essence we are using journalist's opinions (ie journalist from the NY times, OC register, People magazine, Asahi Shimbun, Wall Street Journal, etc) as sources of evidence. Do you think the vetting process to obtain a journalist / reporter pass from these companies is strenuous?

In essence, it would be way easier, "neutral", and encyclopedic if wikipedia contributers were able to use primary sources as evidence rather than secondary, or tertiary sources written by "experts" hired by these media companies. DN27ND (talk) 18:53, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Check out the results of the 1969 Judo World Championships

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_World_Judo_Championships

Is that not a podium sweep where one team had a decisive victory over the other teams? That is the time of only 2 times this has happened in the sports history. If the phrases "dream team" or "talented group" is not appropriate to describe the sporting results. Perhaps those words need to be censored from all other wikipedia articles about sports where these words have been used to describe competition results. DN27ND (talk) 12:42, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

That 1969 World Judo team had multiple World and Olympic champions on them. In the sport of judo, the World Championships are regarded as a more difficult achievement than the Olympics due to their respective qualification processes. DN27ND (talk) 12:49, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

There are also many other newspaper and magazine articles that show Bunasawa's notability on the wikipedia article.

Rezell, John (March 3, 1988). "Top Judo Instructor comes to the defense of self-defense". Orange County Register.

"Judo". Orange Network. 385: 7. April 2023.

New Judo Instructor at 'Y' Here". Indiana Evening Gazette. February 21, 1975

"Instructor on Show". Rogers Daily News. April 1975.

I could scan these newspaper articles and send them to you. Or you can go into the library archives and look them up yourself. DN27ND (talk) 12:17, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Notice: I didn't question the person's notability. I'm questioning COI and your understanding of Wikipedia's editing style. These walls of text and excessive bolding are not necessary; I can read. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 13:26, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but the original poster (Marchjuly) did question notability and it is part of this page's discussion

"I wasn't sure about the subject's Wikipedia notablity per WP:BIO and asked about the article at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Martial arts#Nori Bunasawa. DN27ND was pinged into the discussion but never responded"

People have occupations, other obligations, and commenting on wikipedia doesn't pay the bills. I'm not sure if Marchjuly was expecting an immediate response or what? DN27ND (talk) 18:26, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

You're doubling down on the walls of text and bolding. I can read. I'm still confident in what I said, will not engage anymore. Good luck. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 23:36, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Whether the "working relationship" described by DN27ND consitutes a conflict (at least in regard to Wikipedia editing) per WP:COI is porbably something that needs to be further discussed at WP:COIN. I will start a discusison about it sometime within the next few days. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:42, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Please don't scan any newspaper articles and then upload them to either Wikipedia or Wikimedia Commons because doing so is likely going to be considered a copyright violation. Please also don't reproduce verbatim any of these sources are any Wikipedia page, except perhaps as short and properly attributed quotes in accordance with MOS:QUOTE because that too will almost certainly be considered a copyright violation. If you can find these sources online somewhere (perhaps a site like Newspapers.com), you can perhaps posts links them as long as there are no WP:COPYLINK issues. You can also summarize these sources in your own words at Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Nori Bunasawa (the link is WP:RED because the page doesn't exist yet). I will ask at Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request to see whether anyone might be able to find the Orange County Register, Indiana Evening Gazette, Orange Network and Rogers Daily News articles and provide either a link or an assessment of them. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:55, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

For the sources that are online, I've already linked them to the page.

'''Orange County Register, Indiana Evening Gazette, Orange Network and Rogers Daily News'''

These sources are not online and some of the Japanese sources are not online either. I received them as newspaper clippings. The dates and issues are included. You could try to call the local libraries in those counties and can talk to the librarian about sending you those papers.

Orange County Register has a webpage. Perhaps they might have online achieves. I have photographs of the newspaper clippings.

The Indiana Evening Gazette has online achieves. I have not looked at it because I have access to the scanned newspaper clippings.

The Orange Network is associated with the Orange County Japanese American Association. You can give them a call or search their website to see if they keep their old issues on pdf.

Rogers Daily News is the local paper from Rogers, Ark. that was published from 1927-1981. You can try to call the local library in that city, perhaps they have archives

I have them as clippings, scans, and photos taken by a camera phone.

There are actually much more newspaper articles that were written about Bunasawa in the newspapers, such as a time one of his teen students used judo in self defense against an assault, and many much more. Just because some of the sources are from 25 to 35 years ago, and before the time of the internet, doesn't make Bunasawa a less "notable" sport and martial arts figure.

The information is all there if you want to do the research and look hard enough. Also finding people (through connections) who have saved these newspaper clippings, especially for people who existed before the internet does wonders when writing up a biography.

Have fun on your search DN27ND (talk) 18:18, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

There are also a few other english language papers in California stating that Bunasawa was a pre-medical student while coaching Judo. I haven't included all the sources and kept it general via "furthering his education" as some papers cited stated that he was a uni student in the USA.

If its THAT important to you, you can call Bunsawa's assistants to see if you can obtain his university diploma at Waseda University, then cross reference the dates of the newspaper sources that stated that he was a student in the USA, then voilà, you have inferred that he "furthered his education"

You can look in the biographical section of his book as well

Bunasawa, Nori; Murray, John (2007). The Toughest Man Who Ever Lived. Nevada: Innovations, Inc. and Judo Journal. p. 299. ISBN 978-0-9648984-1-7. DN27ND (talk) 18:27, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• DN27ND, to be blunt, no one is going to read through all of this confusing content you posted, it's overwhelming. You need to be concise. There are a lot of AFDs to look through and this is just one. Editors are much likely to rely on the source analysis table below, which concisely presents information in a way everyone can understand. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:29, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

• I have added the following source assessment table for many of the additional sources cited above by DN27ND. It doesn't cover all of the sources DN27ND mentioned, but I'll keep searching online for links for those not in the table. I used Google translate for the one Russian source since I don't understand Russian, but am able to read the Japanese sources unassisted. The assessments are mine and I tried to give detailed explanations as to the reasons why I made them. The table's last column "Count source toward GNG?" is an assessment done by the table itself. An explanation of it's computed can be found at Template:Source assess#"Overall" assessment.

Source assessment table: prepared by User:Marchjuly
Source	Independent?	Reliable?	Significant coverage?	Count source toward GNG?
https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2016/may/12/ichiban-sports-complex-shares-strange-s/	Independently published newspaper article	2016 article in Arkansas Democrat Gazette	Bunasawa in mentioned by name twice, but the main focus of the article is Willard Robertson and the Ichiban Sports Complex. Bunasawa is mentioned as being won of several "experts" Robertson brought in to work at the complex. Doesn't meet WP:SIGCOV but might be OK to use as a RS for certain article content.	✘ No
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=qNUDAAAAMBAJ&q=bunasawa&pg=PA38&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=bunasawa&f=false	Independently published magazine article	Four-page article titled "Title techniques" in the July 1978 issue of Black Belt (magazine)	? Three of the four pages are photos of Bunsawa demonstrating some technique, but the first page is part interview and part biographical material. Not sure this qualifies as sigcov per se, but it seems enough of a RS to support some article content. The quoted parts of the article though probably need to be treated as WP:ABOUTSELF.	? Unknown
https://www.abebooks.com/9780964898424/Toughest-Man-Who-Lived-Nori-096489842X/plp#:~:text=A%20book%20about%20Conde%20Koma,force%20in%20the%20martial%20arts	? AbeBooks page about the book Toughest Man Who Ever Lived. The paragraph on the book appears to be WP:UGC content	? Could possibly be used to support Bunasawa co-writing the book	Not close to being sigcov for either WP:GNG or WP:NAUTHOR	✘ No
https://www.judoinside.com/judoka/90786/Noriaki_Bunasawa/judo-career	? Has a fansite feel to it.	? Niche website which looks like UGC content, but might be conisdered a RS for Judo.	Brief profile blurb that might be OK as a RS for certain article content but isn't close to being sigcov.	✘ No
https://www.instagram.com/p/Crg9KAmBek5/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D	Instagram account that appears to be connected to Bunasawa.	? UGC and WP:SPS type of source that only could be used per WP:ABOUTSELF	Not close to being sigcov	✘ No
https://www.imdb.com/news/ni62362469/	IMDb blurb about this 2019 The Hollywood Reporter article	? Original article is probably a good source for content about the movie, but there's nothing in the article about Bunasawa; so, trying to use this to support content about Bunasawa's involvement with the film seems to be WP:SYN.	Not close to being signcov	✘ No
https://about.netflix.com/en/news/jos%C3%A9-padilha-attached-to-write-and-direct-feature-film-dead-or-alive-with-greg-silvermans-stampede-for-netflix	? Netflix PR blurb about film	? Like the above source, might be for content about the film as WP:PRIMARY source, but makes no mention of Bunasawa.	Not close to being sigcov	✘ No
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm12094236/	Bunasawa's IMDb page	IMDb pages are generally not considered RS per WP:IMDB	Not close ot being sigcov	✘ No
https://www.kinopoisk.ru/film/4294861/	? Russian language movie website	? Looks to be similar to IMDb, and bascially just a cast/crew list for the 1990 film Martial Marshal (seems to also be called Judo Justice). Bunasawa isn't mentioned at all	Not close to being sigcov	✘ No
https://en.kinorium.com/2680888/cast/	? Another movie database type site	? Appear to be an IMDb type site. Bunasawa in listed by name in the "Cast" section as playing "Gonji Tamashita" but nothing more.	? Not close to being sigcov	? Unknown
https://4kou.jp/news/434/	September 2020 article/feature in the Saitama edition of the Japanese newspaper Asahi Shimbun	The Asahi Shimbun is certainly a RS, but this seems to have appeared only in a local edition of the paper for Saitama Prefecture. It's also primarily about the one of the area's local high school's and the school's alumni. There are five half-pages and Bunasawa is mentioned (there's a photo of him as well) on the fifth half-page along with others (including his older brother) who were involved in the school's judo club. This could be a RS to support article content about Bunasawa having a brother, going to this particular high school, or some other associated article content.	? There's more converage about Bunasawa in this particular article than there's is in perhaps many of the other sources mentioned above, but it doesn't seem to be sigcov.	? Unknown
https://www.judo-ch.jp/result/ajsc/men1970.shtml	? Database-like site of judo competition results	? Appears to be a UGC type of site, but might be considered reliable for articles about judo competitions。Bunsawa is mentioned by name once for finishing runner up in the light-weight class of a 1969 judo tournament in Fukuoka, Japan.	Not close to being sigcov	✘ No
https://sputniknews.jp/20190902/6634165.html	? August 2019 piece by Sputnik (news agency)	Site isn't considered reliable per WP:SPUTNIK but not clear whether that applies to judo. The Wikipedia article about the site states it's frequently described as a "propaganda outlet" that's currently banned in the EU. This might have more to do with other things than judo though. The article is only a few paragraphs long and quotes Bunasawa a couple of times (as an "expert" perhaps) on how non-Japanese judokas can prepare to beat their Japanese counterparts at the 2020 Tokyo Olympics.	Not close to being sigcov	✘ No
https://www.ocjaa.org/orange-network	Piece in the April 2023 issue of a magazine/newsletter put out by the Orange County Japanese American Association.	? This would appear to be UGC content with very little if any kind of rigorous editorial control. I don't think the OCJAA would knowingly post anything false, but they might not have the capability to the type of strenuous fact checking expected of a RS. It's certainly doesn't seem to be a major news publication; it doesn't even seem to be close to the level of the Rafu Shimpo. It's published in Japanese and its target audience is most likely Japanese-Americans, Japanese nationals or other Japanese speakers living/working in the area. The April 2023 issue in which the the article "Judo" is supposed to appear isn't available any longer on the OCJAA website, but the cover can be seen here. I tried to see if I could find an archived version of of the issue from an archived version of the main page like this one from June 2023 or this one from April 2024 and work backwards, but had no luck.	? Hard to assess whether the article is sigcov, but from looking at some recent issues still available online like july 2024, June 2024, May 2024 and April 2024, the "magazine" appears to be mainly advertisements and event listing with a few stories/interviews thrown in. There's a good chance the "Judo" article was an part interview and part general interest piece that had some biographical information about Bunasawa but nothing resembling the sigcov to help establish Wikipedia notability.	? Unknown
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}.

    -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:07, 25 July 2024 (UTC)