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User:Acadēmica Orientālis/formerly Miradre

Acadēmica_Orientālis has a history as an SPA pushing a pov that has it that certain races are biologically inferior than others regarding intelligence and propensity to commit crimes. Following an editing restriction he expanded his scope to articles generally related to question of biological influence on criminal behavior and intelligence. In the past month or so I have looked at his contributions to three different articles (two had him as main contributor) in which it has been painfully clear that he is not working neutrally but selectively choosing those sources that argue in favor of the the viewpoint that social behavior is determined by biology - completely ignoring opposing viewpoints (of which there are always many as the nature/nurture question is generally contentious, and particularly in the case of crime and psychopathology). The articles are Racism, Biology and political orientation, Biosocial criminology (also note the relative weightinh og "environmental" and biological/genetic in the other article he has recently worked on Psychopathy) (see also his past contributions to Race and crime, Correlates of crime, Imprinted brain theory and the related talkpages). I am not arguing that this bio-centric viewpoint should not be represented in wikipedia, because it obviously should. But I don't think it is in the interest of wikipedia to allow Academic Orientalis to repeatedly create lopsided biased content related to this topic. I would like to assume good faith, for example assuming that Academica Orientalis is not familiar with the fact that the literature he repeatedly inserts into articles is only one side of a large debate, but unfortunately at this point this would not make sense since he has been told multiple times, and even sanctioned for tendentious editing. I think the only sensible course of action is to restrict him from editing in nature/nurture related articles broadly construed (his other recent interest is science and technology in China - I haven't heard of problems with his editing there). In my mind the issue is comparable to the time when a user had the unfortunate habit of writing articles about antisemitic canards without being able to write those articles neutrally. He was stopped from doing that and he was encouraged to start editing in other areas and has since been a useful contributor. I have hope that the same could be the same for Acadēmica_Orientālis if he is restricted from writing about the particular topic regarding which he is clearly incapable of giving a balanced coverage.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:30, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Maunus's argument is rather unclear. But I have repeatedly stated that I will avoid race and intelligence articles except some occasional talk page comments and so I have for many months. Maunus's strangely takes up a few not objectionable talk page comments on the racism page a long time ago as evidence for something. What is unclear. The question of nature/nuture in various other articles I have contributed significantly to is a content dispute where Maunus has a strong personal POV. It is unfortunate that Maunus tries to "win" his content dispute with me this way. No evidence of any wrongdoing whatsoever has been presented by Maunus. Academica Orientalis (talk) 00:54, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I am not trying to "win a content dispute" - I am trying to avoid having to follow you around balancing your articles in the future, in effect preempting future content disputes, except its not really a dispute since you usually don't try to resist your articles becoming neutral you just don't help doing it.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:29, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

What you are describing are content disputes. Academica Orientalis (talk) 01:33, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

First, talk pages count. Second, what about this edit, which actually succeeded a tug of war with others about your previous edits?--Bbb23 (talk) 01:00, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Not sure what your point is. My talk page comments contained nothing objectionable. I have avoided editing R&I article contents for more than half a year now. Your diff is about a content dispute unrelated to R&I. The content dispute is currently discussed on the talk page and elsewhere. Academica Orientalis (talk) 01:11, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

The problems were summarised fairly well a year ago by EdJohnston [1] and by Aprock here at WP:AE. Not much seems to have changed. The problems are not specifically with R&I. Mathsci (talk) 01:15, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

When accused of violating the ban, there appears to be a refrain (then and now) by AC that the material he is editing is not related to R&I. His response that Talk pages are irrelevant is similarly ban-evasive.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:24, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I am not under any topic ban. As stated I do not want to participate anymore in the R&I dispute with Maunus, Mathsci, and other, and have voluntarily avoided these articles for more than half a year except some occasional talk page comments. Mathsci's links are almost a year old. I repeat that no evidence of any wrongdoing has been presented. This is an attempt to use ANI to win a content dispute. Academica Orientalis (talk) 01:26, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Whether you are currently under a ban is only relevant in terms of the sanctions that may be imposed on you through this discussion. Your arguments are evasive and sly and don't really address the issues. If I, without any previous knowledge of you, can see that, you can imagine what others more familiar with your history will think. If you want to help yourself, I suggest you try a different approach.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:35, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) EdJohnston wrote, "Regardless of how one analyzes the topic of evolutionary psychology, Miradre's general approach to collaboration on Wikipedia is so poor that a lengthy block for disruptive editing would have been equally well justified. There is doubt in my mind whether Miradre's brand of zealous advocacy has any prospect of improving the encyclopedia. (The 3RR thread I cited above shows what happens when his edits encounter opposition). If Miradre's attitude remains unchanged when his block expires, which seems likely, the community will face the question of whether there is any value in letting him return to editing." Nothing to do with R&I, just WP:DE. Mathsci (talk) 01:37, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Again, you are linking to one person's view which is almost one year old. I have not wish to be further involved in the R&I dispute with you and Mathsci which is why I have voluntarily avoided the topic. I will do so also in the future. I have instead contributed to many other articles for which I have received praise. I repeat. No evidence of wrongdoing has been presented. This is a content dispute. Academica Orientalis (talk) 01:45, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• I am not accusing Academica Orientalis of evading a ban, I don't think he is currently under one. I am accusing him of tendentious editing, which is very difficult to support with difs. But I have demonstrated on the talkpages of Racism, Biosocial criminology and Biology and political orientation that Academica Orientalis repeatedly selects only sources representeing a single viewpoint, frequently twists sources, and sometimes uses weasel phrasing to avoid describing critical views ("there has been criticism of this viewpoint" without describing the criticism or who made it). It really means that it is a huge job for other editors to supply the other half of the argument and rewrite articles to reflect all of the available scholarship. Civil tendentious editing is a huge time drain for other editors, especially when confronted with repetitive IDHT type arguments and total unwillngness to address the problems.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:52, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

You have not shown that. I cite sources accurately and include opposing views when I find them including describing the criticisms. You on the other hand have admitted claiming there are problems by citing sources you have not even read! [2]. You have not produced any diff showing wrongdoing. Please do not use ANI for content disputes. Academica Orientalis (talk) 02:01, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Diffs

• In this edit Academica Orientalis includes a statement that "Other see twin studies as reliable.". The context is that AO based the heritability section of the article on a single article by Alford, Funk and Hibbing that used twin studies to determine heritability of political orientation. He included no critiques of the study and did not mention any problems with the method used. There is in fact a large body of literature criticizing twin studies as a source of heritability estimates. I included several sources arguing specifically that Alford et al's conclusions were untenable because of methdological problems - two of them stating unequivocally that twin studies have been abandonded as a source of heritability estimates. When I looked in the article provided by AO in support of twin studies as a source of heritability estimates it said this: "Twin studies of heritability are suggestive of genetic factors in social and political attitudes, but they do not specify the biological or psychological mechanisms that could give rise to ideological differences. Recently, researchers have turned to molecular genetics approaches, which involve sampling subjects’ DNA from blood or saliva, and identifying individual differences, or polymorphisms, in a particular gene (Canli 2009)". Here the authors say the opposite of what AO make them say - they state that twin studies may be suggestive of genetic differences but that they are no longer used by serious researchers to provide heritability estimates. This shows two kinds of problematic behavior by AO 1. failure to attempt to provide a balanced view of the topic he writes about (he cannot claim that he didn't know of the problems with twin studies, or that he didn't know it had been criticized - he knows this very well from his time in R&I) (in essence cherry picking) 2. misrepresentation of sources.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:30, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

A complicated content dispute. Regarding heritability and twin studies in general I linked to the heritability article which discusses the subject in great detail. To replicate all the arguments for and against in every article mentioning heritability is of course not possible. I added a secondary literature review to the section. I agreed on the talk page that some researchers argued twin studies are not accurate for exact numbers but they do have been important for showing that genetics play a role. My source started with "The heritability of human behavioral traits is now well established, due in large measure to classical twin studies." I therefore subsequently changed my text to reflect this which you do not mention.[3] See also this review article for a different view on the subject: Nature Reviews Genetics: [4]. Academica Orientalis (talk) 17:17, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

The point is not the issue of content - the point is that: 1. you were aware that the study was controversial and did not state so untill someone made you. 2. you misrepresented the source you did present. If this was a single standing incident it would not be a problem, and i would assume that you would have learned that you ned to include also the opposing view in a major scholarly dispute like this, but unfortunately it isn't. It is a persistent pattern over several years. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:22, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I stated what I was aware of. Regarding the heritability source, see what I wrote previously. Your unsourced claim of persistent pattern is incorrect. I could just as well claim that you have a persistent pattern of being biased in your editing on these subjects. Academica Orientalis (talk) 18:12, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Then you need to be more aware. Especially since people have been making you aware of literature that disagrees with the basic viewpoint expressed in the source for the past several years. I don't buy that excuse -but if I were to assume good faith it would still be an issue of basic WP:COMPETENCE. A wikipedia editor needs to be able to have the mind to realize when a viewpoint is controversial nad requires a balanced treatment. Especially one who has spent so much effort editing controversial topics as you have.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:27, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I added a link the Heritability article discussing the arguments for and against in great detail. To replicate this in every article mentioning heritability is not possible. Regarding competence, how about you actually reading the sources you claim contain important information supporting you. Which you have admitted not doing: [5]]. That would seem to be a minimum requirement. Academica Orientalis (talk) 19:33, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Please stop lying about those two sources. I have not claimed they support me. I have not cited them. I have suggested you read them since they might provide you with a more nuanced view of the fact, and might enable you to actually cite some of the criticism that your source mentions, but apparently doesn't cite.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:40, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

You were listing sources that supposedly should provide information that was supposedly missing in my source without actually having read your own sources! Academica Orientalis (talk) 19:53, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I was providing you a service since you apparently suffer from some kind of handicap when it comes to finding sources that contain information you may disagree with. And I would do it again.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:56, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Nice tactic. So if you disagree with an article you will start filling the talk page with sources which you yourself have not read and demand that the other side must read them since there is a possibility that there may be something in the sources you have not read that will support your views? Academica Orientalis (talk) 20:02, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

You refused to provide citations for the criticisms that your own article mentioned, I found articles that are clearly critical of biosocial criminology (indeed the title of one of them is "a critique of biosocial criminology"). But yes, if I happen to know that an article is leaving out significant viewpoints then I will at times provide sources that I believe express those missing viewpoints on the talkpage so that other editors may use them to improve the article, if I don't have time myself. That's not "a tactic" that is called writing a collaborative encyclopedia.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:09, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I have certainly stated which review source I have used for my statements. You personally "think" that there are missing criticisms and you "think" that these missing criticisms may be in some sources you have actually not read. Since you do not have the "time" yourself to control your speculations, you demand that someone else should do the work for you. Academica Orientalis (talk) 20:18, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

The source you used apparently states there is criticisms, it is not just something I "think" - yet those criticisms are given no shrift at all in the article. That is the problem, and that is why I had to use google to findout what they might be after you refused to provide the sources that i am sure the review source cites. Very collaborative of you.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:45, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• In this edit AO adds a mention of the fact that "has sometimes been criticized for ignoring environmental influences". This is of course correct and it would be very useful for the reader to know who made this criticism and where, and based on what arguments. Instead of giving this basic information AO writes: "Biosocial argues that this is incorrect but that on the other hand many sociologically influenced criminological approaches completely ignores the potential role of genetic which means that the results is likely confounded by genetic factors." That is the criticism is only mentioned so that it can be debunked, without giving the reader a chance to even know who is being debunked. When I placed a tag asking for who made the criticism AO said that it was already sourced (to the source debunking the criticism that is), and he did not offer to find it for me. When I googled crtitiques of Biosocial criminology I quickly found a few studies which I presented on the talkpage so that AO could use them to improve the article. Instead he argued that because I hadn't read them my assertation that the article lacked criticism was unfounded (in spite of the fact that he himself had mentioned the existence of criticism, and refused to provide the citation of the critique)·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:38, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Another content dispute. I have on the talk page given the exact quote from which the statement was made.[6] The source does not give further information than what I stated in the article. Have you not read what I wrote on the talk page? Regarding the sources you gave and claim contain relevant critical information, you yourself have admitted that you have not read them! [7]. Academica Orientalis (talk) 17:22, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Again, it is not the specific content here that is the problem, but that fact that you knowlingly did not adequately represent opposing (mainstream) viewpoints. If you don't have access to mainstream sources about a topic don't edit.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:30, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I stated what the source stated on the subject. I have not "knowingly" excluded anything. I have read sources unlike you who have admitted claiming there are arguments missing by citing sources you have not even read! Academica Orientalis (talk) 18:06, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

So now you are verging into plain untruths. I admitted that I had not read two sources that I added on the talkpage - I have not cited those sources anywhere. Your own source mentioned there was criticisms - that didn't motivate you to look for it. That is at best a competence issue and at worst knowingly omitting the contrary view. You have not admitted to not reading the sources you cite, but if you read the review you introduced then you certainly read it very superficially.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:24, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

The diff speaks for itself. You mentioned these sources you admit not having read as supporting for your views. I have read the Biosocial Crime source I cited carefully and not stated otherwise. Academica Orientalis (talk) 19:38, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• This is similar to the above, in that he gratuitously mentions that there has "been various criticisms", but does not mention who made these critiques orexplain what they are, but instead sources[8] the entire paragraph to an article in which the original authors of the controversial study make a rebuttal of criticisms (The study has been shown to be based on flawed data and statistical methods by Buller, David (2005). "The Emperor is Still Under-dressed". Trends in Cognitive Science 11: 508–510.) - but Ao doesn't think this is relevant for this article.

Content dispute. I did not mention any of the specific arguments either for or against since there is a very long Wikipedia article (Cinderella effect) dedicated to the subject which was linked to. Academica Orientalis (talk) 17:30, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• This edit is just blatant POV peacockery.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:39, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Content dispute. What the sources states. Academica Orientalis (talk) 17:31, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• Here AO removes the only mention of the fact that the mainstream view in criminology still is that most of the causality behind crime is explained by environmental factors. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:50, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Content dispute. In fact, the article starts by stating "contemporary criminology has been dominated by sociological theories". This with a source unlike the completely unsourced material I removed. Academica Orientalis (talk) 17:36, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• It seems odd that the claim that noone would have contradicted this claim "Traditional sociologically oriented theories explain relatively little of the variance" which basically states that all other criminologists have got it all wrong. Where is the "traditional" view (also known as mainstyream) represented? ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:53, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Content dispute. This is what the given source states. There was no "traditional" view there on this that I did not include. Academica Orientalis (talk) 17:38, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. Writing a neutral article requires looking at sources written by...gasp... the other point of view. Basing an article on a single biase source as you routinely have done producess... biased articles.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:54, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

If I wanted to write a POV article I would not have mentioned this criticism at all. Your are assuming that there are counter-arguments without proof. Just like you assume that sources you Google contain relevant information without reading them. If there are in fact opposing view, then state them so they can be included. Academica Orientalis (talk) 18:17, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• Here we're back to race again (but not IQ). Apparently religious Black people tend to vote liberal. It's probably in their genes. (Ok, this isn't really misconduct since its on a talkpage and he's actually using a maisntream source (but cherry picking a factoid out of table))·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:58, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Content dispute. Secondary source. No mention of IQ. No mention of genes. Talk page comment. No cherry picking.Academica Orientalis (talk) 17:41, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• Look at this article edited by AO recently. Notice how anthropology and sociology account for a paragraph each, whereas - evolutionary explanations account for something closer to three screens. One would think that social sciences would have more to say about altruism (of course they do). Ok, AO is not interested in social science and probably shouldn't be forced to write extensively about stuff he's not interested in. But then again isn't every editor responsible at least for maintaining articles in some kind of reasonable weight between viewpoints according to prominence? ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:10, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Content dispute. I edited the area regarding which I have most knowledge. Your description is misleading, there is also a long section on social psychology in the article. If more social science is needed, then please add this. Academica Orientalis (talk) 17:52, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• I could find a lot of similar stuff if i go a few months further back. For example AO's article on Race and crime was stubbified a year ago after the consensus in an afd found the topic notable but the coverage completely lopsided. This apparently didn't deter Ao from writing a bunch of similar ones.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:14, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

See no concrete arguments here. Academica Orientalis (talk) 17:56, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• Question "He included no critiques of the study and did not mention any problems with the method used." This is more than a solid screenful of text at ANI suggesting we should ban all newbies who don't write at FA or above ? serious ? how do these arguments about an experienced editor not also apply to every new editor that walks through the door ? Penyulap ☏ 20:50, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Because AO has been told multiple times that wikipedia requires neutral article and that what he writes rarely is neutral?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 11:38, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• to ANI thread from july 2011, where AO (then Miradre) got a 3 month topic ban for tendentious editing and editwarring in violation of the R&I arbitration restricitons. (This is the reason an RfC seems unwarranted). For Those who have requested diffs of old school disruption there are quite a few in that thread. Now AO has not been editwarring lately, but I don't see the fundamental change that might have been hoped for in his editing behavior after coming back from the topic ban.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:00, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I get the absolute maximum of 3 months for several reverts over a long time period while the person who reported me and who did more reverts during the same extended time period gets nothing at all. See the diffs given for that by me in the link if interested. It seem Maunus have found so little to object to in my current behavior, just the content disputes above, that he must bring up edits almost one year old in a topic I a long time ago stopped editing when he is asked for something more concrete. Academica Orientalis (talk) 13:45, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

The previous topic ban is brought up, not as evidence of current wrongdoing, but to show that this is something that you have been made aware of before, and that an RfCU seems unwarranted given that this is not the first time by far that your editing has attracted negative scrutiny. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:01, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I have avoided editing this topic for a long time. No one here has accused me of edit warring. Yet you fail to see any fundamental change? Academica Orientalis (talk) 14:30, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I think you have avoided the topic of R&I (to some extent - except for example your recent tedious appearance at Talk:Racism, where, contrary to sources, you argued that racism should be narrowly defined only as racial discrimination based in a belief of racial superiority (so that the belief itself is not racist unless it motivates discriminatory practices)). But clearly your entire focus on theories that argue for biological determination of human behavior is closely related to R&I (although I do think its outside of the scope) - and your choice of literature is similarly onesided. Thats a quite close correspondence in behavior, although it does seem that you haven't edit warred. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:42, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

You are making false and defamatory statements. I have expressly stated that I am against racial superiority beliefs theoretical or practical. You are furthermore arguing that adding evolutionary psychology perspectives to, say, evolutionary approaches to depression, imprinted brain theory, evolutionary economics, sports psychology, or evolutionary aesthetics is closely related to R&I? Academica Orientalis (talk) 15:01, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

You are not reading what I write, I made no characterization of your beliefs. You argued for a definition of the concept of racism that tied it only to racial superiority, in spite of the fact that most sources say that such a belief is not necessary for something to constitute racism. Your proposed definition would mean that for example white supremacy would not be classified as falling under the definition of racism, unless it actually argued for discrimination(which few white supremacists do today). This is obviously not evidence for you sharing any of those views , but it is evidence of you still being involved with the topic of race in a way that is closely tied with the problematics of the R&I arbcom case. I don't think adding material on evolutionary psychology to articles is necessarily related to R&I nor necessarily problematic - it depends entirely on whether the material added promotes the view that mental abilities and characteristics is determined by biology - which I think is clearly related to R&I even when not explicitly mentioning that debate. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:50, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I have never argued for any "definition of the concept of racism that tied it only to racial superiority". To clarify, believing that populations may differ in traits is not equal to beliefs in superiority or discrimination. One may believe that populations differ in alcohol tolerance or lactose tolerance without arguing for discrimination or superiority but rather simply argue that such knowledge will help the groups lacking the lactose or the alcohol tolerance. Regarding the content dispute at "Racism" you changed your own proposed definition numerous times in response to my criticisms demonstrating that it was very constructive. You are now actually arguing that all articles describing research on the genetics of mental traits should be under R&I? Thus also articles like Schizophrenia or Positive psychology should be under R&I even if they do not mention race at all? Academica Orientalis (talk) 16:44, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

No, I don't think that is what I am arguing. I am quite sure I am arguing that it depends on the kind of edit one does to that kind of articles - if the edit gives undue prominence to the hereditarian view then I think that does relate to the R&I dispute (I am not saying I am sure it falls under the sanctions, but the relation is clear). (your argument about lactose tolerance does not seem relevant to the issue at all since presumably no one is arguing that noticing genetic differences between populations is necessarily racist, I know I haven't.) ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:08, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Topic ban

• Support an indefinite topic ban of Acadēmica Orientālis from all nature/nurture related articles, broadly construed. There has been a relentless push by Miradre/Acadēmica Orientālis to use Wikipedia to promote the idea that many differences between groups can be explained by the biology of certain races. The relentless WP:CPUSH based on a commitment to use sources from only one side of the debate means it is not possible to sum up the situation with a couple of diffs. One of the many examples can be seen at Talk:Guns, Germs, and Steel#NPOV dispute: Some opposing views removed (and following) to coatrack some R&I views into an article about a book that is only peripherally connected with hereditary effects (search for my comment dated "10:45, 23 February 2012" on that talk page for a quick overview of the book). The above was started by Miradre in July 2011, but related attempts were made by Acadēmica Orientālis in February 2012, see Talk:Guns, Germs, and Steel#Criticism by Rushton removed. There are many other articles where the above is repeated. This editor is interested in only one side of a complex issue, and is damaging articles by introducing POV. Johnuniq (talk) 03:44, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

An infinite topic ban based on what? Some many months old talk page comments in one article? What exactly was objectionable except that I dared disagree with you in that discussion? Should not you also be banned since you were also involved in that talk page discussion if that is a crime? Yet another example of using ANI as a way of winning content disputes.Academica Orientalis (talk) 04:05, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

(To clarify, this was stated before there were any accusatory diffs regarding recent edits)Academica Orientalis (talk) 17:23, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

The claim that I would have been biased regarding the Psychopathy article as stated by Maunus in the initial post is completely ridiculous and outright offensive. Before I started my recent editing there was NO section at all on environmental factors. The article contained statements like "parents cannot be held to fault for their offspring becoming psychopaths, for no amount of good parenting can fix the basic condition, which has genetic causes"! There was no mention of the studies finding that psychopathy can spontaneously improve with age in children. Or studies finding treatment effects. Or that the claim that psychopaths get worse with treatment is likely incorrect. And so on. Academica Orientalis (talk) 04:21, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

And no change in behavior since the criticism of your actions 23 months ago.... — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:01, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Did you miss that I have stated that I voluntarily avoid editing R%I articles and have not done so for many months except some talk page comments such as the above several months ago. Academica Orientalis (talk) 20:47, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• Support a topic ban, based on Miradre/AO's fixed POV and attempt to foist this POV on the encyclopedia, per Johnuniq. We cannot allow such POV-pushers to warp our articles. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:47, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Diffs showing objectionable behaviors in recent months? Academica Orientalis (talk) 11:42, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

(To clarify, this was stated before there were any accusatory diffs regarding recent edits)Academica Orientalis (talk) 04:32, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. Wikipedia must be neutral, and those who continually seek to subvert that are not here to improve the encyclopedia. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:51, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Diffs showing objectionable behaviors in recent months? Academica Orientalis (talk) 11:42, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

(To clarify, this was stated before there were any accusatory diffs regarding recent edits)04:32, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Support There don't seem to be any problems with his edits related to China. But his addition of content related to biological differences/evolutionary psychology in a vast range of articles (eg Honor killings) too often seems biased, unbalanced and undue. He argues interminably in circles on talk pages over these issues and that is a drain on volunteer time. Mathsci (talk) 10:30, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Diffs showing objectionable behaviors in recent months? Academica Orientalis (talk) 11:42, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

(To clarify, this was stated before there were any accusatory diffs regarding recent edits)Academica Orientalis (talk) 04:32, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Almost every comment in the thread[9] is an example. I explained that your single source relating to evolutionary psychology was written by somebody without academic qualifications in the subject (he is a lawyer outside academia). You responded that my statement was an ad hominem attack on the author. You exhaust editors with this kind of circular WP:IDHT argument. Mathsci (talk) 12:22, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

You are misrepresenting, selectively quoting, and ignoring the many different arguments I made in this talk page content dispute. Again, show the diffs showing the need for an indefinite ban. Academica Orientalis (talk) 12:35, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Here are examples from threads on talk pages of multiple articles covered by or related to WP:ARBR&I (I have not picked out individual diffs):[10] [11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18] Mathsci (talk) 12:47, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you have not showed any diff and explained what is supposed to be objectionable with it. You are simply linking to talk page content disputes most of which are very old without explaining what is supposed to violate any policy. Again, show the diff you think show objectionable behavior violating Wikipedia policies. You seem to be arguing for a purely political ban for disagreeing with your own POV.Academica Orientalis (talk) 13:01, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

The pattern of repetitive WP:IDHT edits seems clear enough, as others have written. It cannot be described by individual diffs. In the example from Honor killings, one article by a non-expert in the subject was used to produce the content. AO did not concede that there might have been a problem with the source. He. continued arguing in circles, as seems to be happening here. Mathsci (talk) 14:03, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

So no concrete evidence can be produced and no specific policy I have violated can be named but I should still be indefinitely banned? Regarding the content dispute with you regarding Honor killings, see the Honor killings talk page discussion. Academica Orientalis (talk) 14:16, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Academica Orientalis dismisses all criticism. Not so long ago—barely a month—Roger Davies already commented that Academica Orientalis had spent a considerable amount of time vociferously supporting a blatant sock troll (Alessandra Napolitano) of a banned user.[19] Their contributions here should be viewed in the light of that. Mathsci (talk) 21:15, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I have not supported anyone I knew was sock troll. Academica Orientalis (talk) 21:36, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• Support I became aware of the topic Biology and political orientation based on a post by another editor to WP:FTN. The editor Acadēmica Orientālis appears determined to push biased content which violates core policies (such as the section discussed here Wikipedia:RSN#Biology_and_political_orientation which is clearly based on unreliable sources, but which has not been removed Talk:Biology_and_political_orientation#Unreliable_section because the editor Academica wants the content to stay and "point out that there is controversy and refer to the main article") and to frustrate other editors into submission. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:46, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

No one has produced any diffs showing any objectionable things I have done in recent months but are making accusations without backing. Seems to be a purely political topical ban for my views on a topic I have not edited for many months. Academica Orientalis (talk) 11:10, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

(To clarify, this was stated before there were any accusatory diffs regarding recent edits)Academica Orientalis (talk) 04:32, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I can transform the above links into diff form if that is preferable. Considering I have not edited in this topic area before now, I don't see how my support could be political (I'm not sure what you mean by that). IRWolfie- (talk) 11:12, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, please show the diffs showing anything I have done in recent months showing the need for an indefinite ban. Academica Orientalis (talk) 11:15, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I can only respond with diffs corresponding to when I observed your interaction with me and another editor You have resisted the removal of a section based on a primary study of dubious quality (there is agreement in RSN that it's not reliable) based on some dubious arguments:

Bringing in arguments that were never made: "Do you have any evidence for scientific misconduct?" [20]

Arguing that a Journal of American Political Science should be assumed to reliably discuss Genetics [21].

Arguing that newspaper coverage shows notability (I assume you mean weight) for primary sources in biology rather than coverage in secondary sources. [22]

Denial that the topic is controversial [23]

Arguing that even though acknowledging heritability methods are strongly criticized [24] the section based on the primary study using that method should still be kept: [25][26]

Arguing to have specific criticisms of heritability methods excluded: [27][28]

Still want the section kept even though there is a "large and complex controversy" [29]

Arguing that it has not in fact been discredited: [30] but followed by acknowledgement of the non-quantifiable nature of twin studies: [31][32], despite exact figures been given in the section.

In summary it's clear you are intent on pushing the source on to the article despite it not being reliable for the claims given. But I think reading the full discussion on the article and RSN demonstrates the point better. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:59, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

You are grossly misrepresenting my talk page arguments as anyone can see by reading the diffs and the whole talk page discussion. You are NOT MENTIONING THAT I ADDED A PEER-REVIEWED SECONDARY REVIEW SOURCE to the section. I have not denied that the subject is controversial but claims of a large literature of scientific opposing views needed to be backed up by sources which is what I asked for. Notable scientific controversies are not disallowed from being discussed by any policy as you seem to be arguing. Talk page disagreements on contents are not disallowed. Thanks for making it clear that you want to ban me indefinitely for disagreeing with your own POV on what is a talk page content dispute. Academica Orientalis (talk) 13:08, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

This is also covered in the diffs that I have shown and the link to the article, the journal article itself also mentions why it's not suitable as well (as was already pointed out to you but you appear to have ignored WP:IDHT). IRWolfie- (talk) 13:56, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

You have shown no such things. You seem to think that "original paper" = "primary source". That is of course not the case. The peer-reviewed secondary literature reviews I added to the section does no primary research but is reviewing the existing literature. Thanks for again demonstrating that this is about a content dispute and not about violating any Wikipedia policies. Academica Orientalis (talk) 14:08, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

The review article from nature defends the concept of heritability, not the method of twin studies. In fact it mostly argues that heritability estimates should be based on genetic data even though "classical twin studies" have been useful. It is quite clear that they consider twin studies to be a pre-genomic era kind of method. So why you would include that to support twin studies is odd, and why you seem to think that you deserve praise for having added one more source in defense of the same controversial viewpoint without adding any for the opposite view is even odder.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:47, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I am talking about a completely different review article: [33] Regarding the Nature article cannot see any criticisms of twin studies. Do you have a quote? Academica Orientalis (talk) 21:43, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• Question where is the disruption ? certainly the editor has an opinion on the topic, this is perfectly ordinary, so they discuss and promote their opinion, this is also quite normal. Where is the edit warring, where is the disruption of process, in short, why is this even at ANI, is there a problem on wikipedia now that no editor may have an opinion ? Please be kind enough to diff some disruptive behavior, so we can all get to the point please. Penyulap ☏ 13:23, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)

I am not claiming "disruption" I am claiming persistant failure to edit neutrally. Everyone is entitled to having an opinion, but when editing we are expected to edit neutrally and balancedly, not merely promote one view on a topic (even though perhaps it is a common occurrence - which doesn't legitimize it). Ani is not just for disruption, it ios also for making decisions about how best to direct community resources, in this case a lot of community resurces will be spent patrolling AO's pages for neutrality if he is allowed to continue editing in this field. Whereas if he is allowed to edit only on other topics community reseources (including AO's efforts) will be directed at something more productive.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:21, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

No, promoting your own opinion is not what wikipedia is for. The disruption is evident in the links I have shown and has effected the articles in real terms, the heritability section has been kept in the article despite the study being completely unreliable and unsuitable. Also see Mathsci's link for example. The editors substantial edits, based on primary studies and newspaper coverage of the studies, pertaining to his POV [34] are clear evidence of actual damage to the encyclopedia. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:45, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Having an opinion is to be human, being surrounded by people with the same opinion leads to a lack of awareness that you do, indeed, have an opinion. Tolerating other people's opinions when they are civil, articulate, and following the rules is what wiki is about. Penyulap ☏ 20:39, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)

No, throwing your opinions out the window and deferring to reliable sources is what wikipedia is about. This is an encyclopedia. IRWolfie- (talk) 21:12, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

You are still NOT MENTIONING THAT I ADDED A PEER-REVIEWED SECONDARY REVIEW SOURCE to the section and you are grossly distorting my talk comments. There is not policy against discussing notable scientific controversies. Academica Orientalis (talk) 13:53, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

You added a peer reviewed source supporting your original view after you had been shown that you had failed to include a large body of contradictory views. In short your adding the review article after the initial artciel had been challenged only continued the same biased direction that you had begun. At no point did you say "Oh, I guess its right I left out important criticism, let me correct that" what you said was "but I have a counter criticism to all those critical studies". The tendency is clear.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:35, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I did not leave out any important criticisms of which I was aware. I linked to heritability article which discusses the concept in great detail including arguments for and against. Replicating this long article everytime heritability is mentioned is not possible. Since the source was challenged, I added a secondary review source I had used elsewhere in the article but not in this particular section. Academica Orientalis (talk) 20:29, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Oppose a topic ban. Despite the queasiness I feel in supporting an editor whose views so strongly conflict with my own, I cannot see anything in the diffs so far provided which give grounds for a ban. Civilly arguing a point, however fringe or oddball, is only disruptive when it moves into repetitive, wall 'o' text trolling which this has not. I see no evidence of unjustified edits to articles, no incivility, no vandalism. This editor may be annoying and frustrating to the majority of editors on articles s/he visits, but that's not sufficient reason for a block, in my opinion. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 14:06, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

The issue here is not his views but the fact that he persistently writes biased articles that do not take into account opposite viewpoints. This kind of persistent tendentious editing is very difficult to show in diffs, but I'll be posting a collection of interpreted diffs. Also no one is talking about a block, but about a topic ban so that the fact that he is unable to edit neutrally n this topic will not create problems for the encyclopedia's coverage of this sensitive issue.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:17, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Civil POV pushing is still POV pushing. Arguing a point beyond what is reasonable, and onwards is disruptive and does effect article content (the section based on the unreliable source on heritability is still there, he reverted it back in twice without consensus, his POV push has retained it despite no editors agreeing with his edits). Only after another editor performed significant research did academica indicate there actually was a controversy with the section, his original edits mention none: [35]. All his edits to the page are of this type and will take a lot of work to try and fix, made the more difficult by the editor himself. Topics bans aren't given out just for incivility and vandalism. Civil POV pushers also face topic bans. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:19, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Again, as usual, lots of claims most of which are not supported by any diffs. Sweeping claims regarding all my editing based on a single edit. You are still trying to ignore the reliable secondary review source I added. Heritability is by no means dead today, see this review article in Nature Reviews Genetics: [36] Heritability is controversial, but so is also, say, other scientific debates or political views on various issues and there is no need and possibility to repeat the whole controversy every time the issue is mentioned since we have wikilinks to the main articles. Heritability, including both the general arguments for and against, are discussed in the Heritability article I linked to. Regarding claims that I would generally be biased I will repeat my earlier comments regarding the psychopathy article: Before I started my recent editing there was NO section at all on environmental factors. The article contained statements like "parents cannot be held to fault for their offspring becoming psychopaths, for no amount of good parenting can fix the basic condition, which has genetic causes"! There was no mention of the studies finding that psychopathy can spontaneously improve with age in children. Or studies finding treatment effects. Or that the claim that psychopaths get worse with treatment is likely incorrect. And so on. I urge those interested to examine the article before and after I edited it. Academica Orientalis (talk) 14:47, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• Miradre/Academica Orientalis is sort of the canonical soup-spitter. That sort of behavior isn't obvious in a diff, or even in a single thread, so it's hardly ever deemed "disruptive" in an AN/I setting. I disagree with Kim: I think that if an editor is consistently annoying and frustrating the majority of editors on articles s/he visits, then s/he needs to stop editing those articles. This is a collaborative project, and we don't have unlimited reserves of constructive, cheerful editors to step in and replace those burnt out by dealing with this sort of behavior. I don't see a loss to Wikipedia if AO stops editing the topic in question, and I do see a benefit: namely, decreasing the burnout rate among the constructive editors dealing with him/her in that topic area. MastCell ^Talk 16:04, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

So no concrete evidence can be produced and no specific policy I have violated can be named but I should still be indefinitely banned? It seems like a purely politically motivated ban. I have added a very large amount of material, sourced to secondary academic sources, to numerous evolutionary psychology related articles these past months. Without any objections except on a small minority of them. I deeply resent the claim, given without any evidence, that my editing on the whole is not constructive.Academica Orientalis (talk) 16:18, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

There's a difference between a indefinite ban and a topic ban. Also, it's entirely possible to be a disruptive influence without breaking a single policy, guideline, law, or anything. For instance: let's say that your neighbour buys a shotgun and then sits on his front porch every day holding it, right next to your house and yard where your dog and kids play every afternoon. He hasn't broken a single law, but he's clearly creating a rather uncomfortable environment... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 17:37, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I am not holding a shotgun. Another comparison would be a dictatorship where people with opposing views are punished without any evidence of wrongdoing. If you have any concrete evidence of misdoing, then please give the diffs. Academica Orientalis (talk) 17:47, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

It is is a purely political ban without any supporting evidence for other wrongdoing, should not this be stated clearly in the policies? Like "genetical/neuroscience/evolutionary psychology views are not allowed regarding certain topics such as politics or crime"? Academica Orientalis (talk) 18:47, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Shotgun ? could we please remain on planet Earth, this is civilized editing, not even socking or reverting, it appears more a case of someone who doesn't look like 'we' do, and, on a worldwide project, that is hardly in harmony with policy. Can anyone show me a disruptive diff, such as reverting or some such ? Penyulap ☏ 20:45, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)

You seem to be confusing a civil POV pusher with someone who engages in edit wars, see a description here of the characteristics: Wikipedia:Civil_POV_pushing. That's why he is constantly asking for diffs, because it's hard to impossible to show civil POV pushing in a diff, you need to look at the long term behaviour. IRWolfie- (talk) 21:06, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, please look at my long term behavior regarding articles such as the Psychopathy article where I have as stated above greatly reduced the genetic arguments. Academica Orientalis (talk) 21:21, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I take very seriously the careful arguments against my oppose above. I completely concede the point that this editor is tendentious and uncollaborative, but manages to stay well on this side of the line of civility, edit warring etc. A good example is the set of exchanges here wherein AO stonewalls all attempts at discussion. In all the talk pages I've viewed, I don't see AO acknowledging that s/he is doing anything wrong or could in any way improve their approach. The same is true of this discussion, wherein AO characterises the whole problem as an extended content dispute. So I fully accept the facts of what folks are complaining about here. I guess my problem is with the remedy. I've had occasional brushes with similar editors and have longed for them to become abusive or start to edit war, just so we can reasonably block them. Usually they do, but what if they don't? Others here are arguing that the disruption AO causes is sufficient to merit a topic ban. I'd take the view that AO's nuisance value is the price we pay for accepting a wide diversity of views here, but if the consensus is that the price is not worth paying I will quite understand. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 21:44, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

That is a very well argued deliberation, and I find your oppose on those grounds to be entirely reasonable.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:59, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I would like that I have added a great deal of evolutionary psychology material to many articles and there have been no opposition to this except in a small minority. The Biology and Political Orientation article seems to have caused an enormous controversy considering the AfD and this ban proposal. If it would help I promise to avoid this article and concentrate on other articles where I think I have added much valuable material without opposition. Academica Orientalis (talk) 22:04, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

It would help if you were to admit that you have failed to give a balanced coverage of topics related to nature/nurture, and that you will take steps to remedy that in the future. And no, I see the same problems with your EP edits - EP is a similar controversial field where a large body of critical literature exists, which I have never seen you take steps to include in your writings.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:24, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Sweeping generalizations without giving evidence. I could just as well argue that you biased in your edits regarding these topics. See the Psychopathy article which I thinks is much better after my edits and which, yes, includes evolutionary psychology criticisms added by me and from which I removed much incorrect pro-biology material. Academica Orientalis (talk) 22:37, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• Support. All of the diffs above show content problems, but AO seems unable to stop adding questionable material supporting his POV, and deemphasizing material opposing his POV. or to understand what he's doing wrong. All his statements at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Biology and political orientation show this problem, although there, the entire article represents nothing that does not support his POV. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:50, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Could you give a diff and explain what was unacceptable? Academica Orientalis (talk) 18:13, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

As I couldn't find one that was acceptable, I see no need for additional diffs. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:57, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

If you do not produce any diffs and explain what policy is violated, then how do we know there is a problem and how do I defend myself. An absurd situation. Academica Orientalis (talk) 19:12, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Collapsed trolling by sockpuppet of banned user Echigo mole
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Support topic ban on all topics remotely relevant to human biology. This user has consistently supported an extreme point of view which can be usefully described as pseudo-scientific racism -- attempting to import into numerous articles material which is favorable to the view that human races exist and that there is some scientific backing for a notion of racial superiority. This point of view cannot be tolerated on Wikipedia. Ordinary editing mechanisms are not adequate to address this issue, and otherwise productive editors are exhausted by the prolific and incessant POV-pushing. One editor alone, User:Mathsci, has had to follow this user to Talk:Honor killing, Talk:Guns, Germs, and Steel, Talk:Problem of evil, Talk:Causes of autism, Talk:Cognitive bias, Talk:Cultural anthropology, Talk:Criticism of evolutionary psychology, Talk:Democracy Now!, Talk:Groupthink, Talk:Social anthropology, Talk:NPR -- think of how much useful editing he could have done instead if he had not had to battle this racist claptrap. No, there is no viable alternative to a wide-ranging topic ban, if not a complete ban from Wikipedia altogether for people who peddle this line. Peshawar Cantonment (talk) 21:04, 25 June 2012 (UTC) I have not edited any race articles for over half a year except some occasional talk page comments most of which were several months ago. Honor killings, Problem of evil, Causes of autism, Cognitive bias, NPR, Groupthink, and so on are not about race. You seem to be arguing for a politically based ban for editing in an area I have avoided for many months. Academica Orientalis (talk) 21:18, 25 June 2012 (UTC) No, I'm arguing for a ban based on your continued and continuing pattern of edits, which are promoting a political point of view which is consistent with and a continuation of that older unacceptable behaviour. Of course it's politically based, in that sense, and the overwhelming consensus of opinion is that productive editors ought not to have to waste their time dealing with it. It's just that some editors are shy about admitting it. Peshawar Cantonment (talk) 21:54, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose screen after screen after screen of nonsense at ANI, this is why there are bright lines drawn, so this doesn't happen. The user is causing annoyance by discussing a long list of different new material and many editors are frustrated that this editor doesn't stop trying to add material to articles. It's called wikipedia, and this is what it is for, take up golf you lot, or write a book. Like many things I've seen Johnuniq come up with, this proposal is lacking in any solid foundation and is nothing beyond demagogy, I have come to expect no meat from John unique. Penyulap ☏ 21:14, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)

This is not Johnuniq's proposal but mine. And the problem is not that he adds material, but that he only adds one kind of material and shows no interest in improving his editing to conform with Wp:NPOV. That is not how wikipedia is supposed to work no.

• Oppose: I do not see disruption and I for one am not going to lower the bar for a topic ban to the level of having an unpopular belief system--and the occasional expression of such on talk pages. It would send a chilling message if this becomes the standard threshold for a topic ban.– Lionel ^(talk) 22:07, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

You are misrepresenting the reasoning here. Any and all kinds of beliefs or faiths are completely acceptable for editors to have and argue, but a basic requirement is that we at least demonstrate a willingness to work towards NPOV in collaboration with others. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:21, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• The topic ban was proposed not because of AO's beliefs, but because of the tactics s/he uses to promote those beliefs. MastCell ^Talk 22:15, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Most of my edits have not caused any objections. Much of the criticisms is about a single article and in particular a single section and source. Or regarding my prior editing many months ago in a topic I now avoids. That is hardly evidence for any general current pattern. Again, I urge those interested to look more broadly at other articles I have edited recently. Academica Orientalis (talk) 23:03, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

@Maunus: saying that I am "misrepresenting" is tantamount to calling me a liar. As you can well imagine I take exception to that. Are you sure you want to go down that road at this venue? – Lionel ^(talk) 01:46, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, I take exception to you attributing me an opinion that I have not expressed, that is what I would call misrepresenting my stated opinion, which is what you do in your comment above. That is incidentally mentioned in WP:CIVIL as an uncivil thing to do, if done on purpose. If you didn't do it on purpose then I would have expected you to change your comment so that it didn't misrepresent my views (and those of other "support"ers, none of whom have argued that AO should be banned because of his views). I think you speak English well enough to be able to understand the difference in meaning between "misrepresent" and "lie". So which road is it you want to walk down with me?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 11:44, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

You are sorely mistaken. I have not attributed anything to you, nor to any other supporter. I am entitled to my own analysis of the facts. And what if I told you that my opinion was not based on the specific points you've raised but from other information? That would be a huge mouthful of crow for you to eat, wouldn't it? And to help further your understanding of our policies, it is one thing to disagree with another editor, it is a violation of WP:AGF to accuse an editor of misrepresenting. Hope this helps, and don't swallow the feathers--they make your poop look weird. – Lionel ^(talk) 22:48, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

In my idiolect the word "misrepresent" carries no assumption of intentionality and it is fully possible to misrepresent something unintentionally. I for one never attribute to malice what can be explained by flawed reasoning. So would you mind divulging what "other information" you base your assertion that topic banning AO would lower the bar to "the level of having an unpopular belief system--and the occasional expression of such on talk pages", given the evidence of persistent POv editing in article space?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:49, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Support So this is an editor, who repeatedly breaks our behavioral guidelines as noted in diffs above, against one of our core policies, has been previously sanctioned in a closely related area with a topic ban, with no apparent effect? Why shouldn't a topic ban be put in place? There would still be well over 3 million other articles for the editor to contribute to; it's about time we nudge the editor to edit in an area where they do not disrupt the building of this encyclopedia. Yobol (talk) 02:56, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Most the complaints are regarding a single source in one particular article. Aside from edits made months ago in a topic I now avoids. Would it help if promise to avoid this article in the future? No, my knowledge is regarding evolutionary psychology so I cannot contribute as well elsewhere. Most of my edits regarding this to numerous articles, adding substantial material, have received no complaints whatsoever. Academica Orientalis (talk) 03:22, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

User:Acadēmica Orientālis/formerly Miradre arbitrary break

• Comment - I have trouble saying that I would oppose sanctions based on the actions of the editor involved, but I cannot actively make myself support one. Yes, the editor is apparently incapable of even the most basic reasoning. Yes, the editor politely engages in stonewalling. And certainly his mindless repetition of "I don't see any diffs" and other comments above are almost enough to make one want to strangle him, if that could be done over the web. But I would procedurally prefer it if an RfC on the editor's behavior, with a recommendation to cease editing all articles in the basic topic area, were filed before a topic ban is placed. Based at least on some of the comments here, it may well be possible that the editor has some sort of mental dysfunction or inability and it is impossible for him to view his own conduct rationally. That sort of thing appears a lot in race-related material. The problem seems to be that the editor has recently returned to editing material which is somewhat related recently. For all of his own vapid repetition above, I have seen no reason given by this editor why he has chosen to end his so-called self-imposed ban now. If he at least seemed to have acknowledged his own mistakes earlier, as his repetition of that comment seems to at least strongly imply, how has time made them other than mistakes in the past few months? However, having said all that, there is a precedent for "exhausting the patience of the community," and I do get the impression that AO's behavior has crossed that line. On that basis, I cannot force myself to actively oppose a topic ban either, unless a saw a clear and unambiguous statement that the editor would voluntarily remove himself from all involvement on related articles indefinitely. John Carter (talk) 22:51, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

The reason I didn't start an rFc is the fact that he has participated in an arbcom case and has been under editing restrictions for similar behavior in the past. This did motivate him to edit i other areas rather than being an SPA, and I think that it would probably be to the benefit of wikipedia if he would concentrate his editing on topics such as China-Africa relations, China-South American relations and Chinese science and technology.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:34, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I have not ever been a SPA but edited a broad range of articles. Most of my editing and adding extensive material to numerous articles has not caused any objections at all. I would welcome a RfC so we could get a more fair overview of my recent editing which I think have been generally constructive. Academica Orientalis (talk) 23:46, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I think you quite clearly have, and you have also once stated that you had a previous account but rgistered "Miradre" exactly to be able to edit in "a controversial area" without it reflecting on your previous identity. I can find a dif to a previous ANI thread in which there was a general consensus that your account was an SPA dedicated to R&I. I estimate that less than 5% of the edits of Miradre (talk · contribs) have been outside the general R&I topic area. You clearly are doing good edits in other areas unrelated to biology and psychology, and I would encourage you to continue with that.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:55, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, please present evidence when you make claims and accusations. Many of my edits in biology and psychology have arguably been constructive such as regarding the Psychopathy article as explained earlier above.Academica Orientalis (talk) 00:02, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Well it is of course arguable - which is why we are arguing. The point is not so much that your edits are not constructive as it is about the quality of the construction and the amount of overseeing it requires of other editors to bring it in line with policy, and the fact that you appear to adamantly resist improving.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:18, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Most the complaints are regarding a single source in one article which cannot be taken as evidence for any general editing. Contrast that to the numerous additions that have received no complaints. Academica Orientalis (talk) 03:28, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Evidence has been provided that this takes place on a large number of articles and their talk pages. AO was not a WP:CLEANSTART: the new account was created apparently because of a hard disk failure which also resulted in the user losing their password for the account Miradre. It certainly is relevant to look at AO's prior editing as Miradre, before the accident. The EP related edits and talk page discussions did not change much. Here for example are two threads on Talk:Incest taboo. [37][38] AO unduly changed the thrust of the article by prominently adding content from poor sources. Here are similar kinds of discussions on Talk:Suicide from November 2011,[39] on Talk:War in October 2011, [40], etc, etc. Mathsci (talk) 05:46, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I have asked for diffs because many have made general accusations without presenting evidence. Note that at the beginning of the case there were for a time no diffs at all but people still wanted me to be banned. To then ask for evidence when I am being threatened with an indefinite ban seems justifiable. Otherwise it looks like a political ban due to my editing of a topic I now avoids. I have not ended avoiding this topic. Academica Orientalis (talk) 23:13, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Most of the diffs that have been added are about my editing many months ago in this topic. Or regarding a single article and in particular a single source and section in that article. I urge editors to look more broadly than just at my editing months ago in a topic I now avoids or regarding this single article and section/source. I have edited numerous articles and added material without any objections except in a small minority. If it helps I promise to avoid this particular article (Biology and political orientation) in the future. Academica Orientalis (talk) 23:40, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Look, I know that in the United states, where most people come from, there is no presentation of a case against the accused, for example, the president declares on TV that such and such somewhere in the world is a criminal, and that's the case closed, however, are we really so low as to deny obvious fundamental justice in this case by not providing a single recent diff or two, because I for one would like to see wikipedia hold itself just that little bit up out of the mud of mob stupidity, like a half arsed push-up by a fat slob just before he completely collapses back into the mud face down, so can somebody, for the love of god, provide a diff or two, hey, borrow something I did !!! there's an idea, call it puppetry for crying out loud, but lets see a little light shining in the basic ANI procedure department here ok ? This is not too much to ask. Penyulap ☏ 00:43, 26 Jun 2012 (UTC)

RFC/U is an excellent suggestion, John. This issue is just not clear cut enough to decide in a thread at ANI by tally of !votes. We use the topic ban hammer far too often here. – Lionel ^(talk) 01:33, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Take this to an RFC/U. Topic ban could be a remedy sought if AO can't understand the problem then, but I'd like to see wider discussion first. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 13:22, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

And you are taking into account that he got a 3 month topic ban for the same behavior a year ago?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:24, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

A deeply unfair claim and comparison with editing almost one year ago. I have avoided that topic for a long time and I have not been accused by anyone here of edit warring. Academica Orientalis (talk) 14:11, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I think the editing pattern you have displayed here at ANI as well is also troublesome. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:14, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Am I allowed to defend myself against a proposed indefinite ban? What are you objecting to concretely? Also, all of your criticisms have been regarding a single section in one article. Would it help if I promise to avoid this article in the future? Academica Orientalis (talk) 14:37, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Support When editors continually edit a small group of articles to insert bias, and argue their position on talk pages, they are hindering the improvement of those articles and wasting the time of other editors who wish to improve them or eliminate bias. There are rules related to neutrality and editors must attempt to follow them. TFD (talk) 18:03, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I have edited many pages without any controversy whatsoever. The above criticisms concern just a couple of pages. Most are regarding a single section in one article. Cannot be taken as evidence for any general pattern. This ban seems politically motivated for old editing in an area I now avoids. Academica Orientalis (talk) 18:53, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Support on the basis of the tendentious behavior and disregard for community feedback displayed here. Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, not a place for defending blatant POV pushing against community consensus. aprock (talk) 20:06, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Of course not unexpected that you also would appear. Just to note, I received the maximum possible topic ban of 3 months for several reverts during a time period. None of these violated 3RR but I admit I should not have made as many reverts. I do think the punishment was excessive. However, Aprock did more reverts during this time period but received nothing at all! (See my 15:45, 11 July 2011 comments here: [41]) This is the systematic bias one encounters in this area. So of course I have avoided this area. Obviously this will not help. I will most likely get an indefinite ban. Many have cited the edits I did many months or years ago, in the area I have since avoided, thus making it abundantly clear that they consider I should be punished for expressing an unpoplar opinion at all in this area. The other criticisms regarding my editing concern a few pages. Most regarding a single section in one article which I have offered to never edit again. This can be compared to the numerous articles I have edited with no complaints. My expertise is regarding evolutionary psychology so I will no be able to contribute anywhere as effectively to other areas. So I will most likely retire once I get the indefinite topic ban. Academica Orientalis (talk) 20:37, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

You have a narrow view of what is "the area" which you were to avoid. I'm not sure it should be all of "evolutionary psychology", but only those parts where you have a non-standard view and are not willing to go beyond it to report on the standard view. You would know what those parts are better than I. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:36, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Obviously I cannot edit any evolutionary psychology article, any article mentioning evolutionary psychology explanations, or any article mentioning the possible role of genetics under a ban against "nature/nurture related articles, broadly construed". Academica Orientalis (talk) 00:56, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I suspect I may have been one of the more active users regarding adding substantial new article contents with 3,200 mainspace article edits since I returned in February. I feel it unfortunately increasingly clear why the Wikipeda Community is in decline and is reducing its active contributors by 7% each year.[42] New Wikipedia editors are according to research "entering an environment that is increasingly challenging, critical, and/or hostile to their work".[43] This does not explain exactly what these new editors are accused of doing. They are according to the link not of lower quality than earlier. One may instead suspect that the Wikipedia Community, as often is the case with groups, is becoming increasingly conformist and increasingly hostile and intolerant to views other than the "correct" Wikipedia view on the world. Editors with other views than the single "correct" Wikipedia view are being driven off the project. Academica Orientalis (talk) 02:25, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Support. User gives no indication that there will be an improvement to the clearly demonstrated non-neutral editing. The proposed topic ban is necessary for protection of the wiki, but I fear it is only an intermediate step, that the user will have to be banned indefinitely. Binksternet (talk) 20:32, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

See the comments above to Aprock. Academica Orientalis (talk) 20:37, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose on procedural grounds. There are specific fora in which editors who allegedly violate arbitration remedies have their edits examined by experienced users for recentness, relatedness, and egregiousness. ANI is no place to short-circuit this necessary dispute resolution, unless the editor in question is being outrageously or obviously disruptive. The charges against this user seem to of civil POV pushing, and such a charge is difficult for laypersons in the community to investigate - it seems that those arguing for AO's ban have been involved in editorial disputes with xem for a long time. Also, AO's claims that xe has avoided the topic area for months now seem to be, at first glance, credible. Shrigley (talk) 14:13, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
  • The editor has not violated an arbcom remedy, a previous remedy was brought up to show a pattern of behavior. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:25, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Many editors above ARE citing my earlier edits and having expressed the wrong view in the R&I dispute, a topic I have avoided, except some occasional talk page comments, for more than half a year as reason for topic banning me. Just look at Johnuniq who started the topic ban discussing. This was before anyone had given diffs regarding recent behavior they disagree with. The only links he gives are to R&I topics on which he himself have the opposite view and have argued with me. Or Mathsci, also before anyone had given diffs about recent behaviors, who is linking to R&I talk page content disputes most of which are very old without explaining what is supposed to violate any policy and in which he personally has often been involved. This seems to be arguing for a political ban for disagreeing with Mathsci's own POV. Academica Orientalis (talk) 17:13, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

You are arguing a point I didn't make. That's not helpful. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:54, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps while they are misrepresenting themselves in such a disingenuous way (describing discussions from February 2012 as "very old", etc), Academica Orientalis could explain what exactly they think my "point of view" is? Mathsci (talk) 07:03, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

At ANI, last month is old, and February is Jurassic, this belongs at IAV as much as it belongs here. Penyulap ☏ 11:43, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Topic bans are usually issued for long term problems with conduct. If you are suggesting otherwise, then your edits amount to disruptive trolling. Mathsci (talk) 20:48, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Come on, give it a rest. This topic is already long enough as it is. No need to engage in name-calling, particularly a redundant name (are there undisruptive trolls?).--Bbb23 (talk) 01:51, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Look, I apologize for getting up your nose on this one, I don't mean to, but to have a pattern at ANI, you need a few recent diffs to compliment the old stuff that you find, there may well be some pattern, but without a few decent recent additions the dots join up into a drawing of a dead end, where the editor has abandoned the behavior and moved on. Otherwise it's the wrong venue.

Incidentally I wish this sort of thing didn't get deleted, with a general like that in charge of the charge of the critics, nothing can possibly go wrong. (oh how I wish it were really about me) Penyulap ☏ 16:48, 30 Jun 2012 (UTC)

That edit was removed after the user checkuser blocked as a sock troll of Echigo mole, who has disrupted this thread at least three times. Are you also fighting for the rights of a community banned sock troll? Mathsci (talk) 22:04, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose Reviewing the history of the articles biology and political orientation and biosocial criminology, there doesn't seem to be behaviour which would warrant this extraordinary measure. This just seems to be routine difficulty with controversial topics and so ordinary dispute resolution should be used. My impression is that there has been inadequate recourse to standard processes such as RfC and third opinion and so these ought to be tried. Warden (talk) 12:58, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Collapsed trolling by CU blocked sock - please see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Echigo mole
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Support topic ban, and indeed outright ban from the project. This user is energetically perusing an agenda that can only be described as racist across numerous articles, and multiple editors are spending much valuable time tracking and confronting his spurious contributions. No Platform for racists. (31261) 1998 EF8 (talk) 09:09, 28 June 2012 (UTC) — (31261) 1998 EF8 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. |}

• Support topic ban, per discussion in this thread. I don't see many comments that AO's edits to these particular articles are not problematic. If the case is that AO really is staying away from the topic, and will continue to, then this topic ban doesn't hurt anyone, and simply formalizes AO's self-imposed restriction. Therefore, I don't find that rationale for opposing compelling. If the case is that AO edits well in other areas of the project, then a topic ban won't disrupt that activity. Therefore, I don't find that rationale for opposing compelling either. I do, however, find the pattern of disruption presented above compelling, and I see a topic ban as a good way to eliminate that disruption while allowing AO to contribute positively to the project in other areas. If AO adjusts to the project, and demonstrates a more collaborative attitude, and wants the topic ban lifted in the future, he has that option.   — Jess· Δ♥ 13:23, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Seems to be a basic misunderstanding here. I am voluntarily staying away from R&I topics. The proposed topic ban is against "nature/nurture related articles, broadly construed" which is a much, much broader topic. This topic ban will prevent any edits regarding evolutionary psychology which is the topic regarding which I have most knowledge. Most of my thousands of edits across numerous different articles regarding this has not met any opposition at all. Academica Orientalis (talk) 16:19, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Your knowledge in this area is not helpful to us if you cannot apply it to articles in a neutral and balanced manner -- that is the issue. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:03, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Support topic ban et al. Per the twisting sources to support a WP:POV being a bad thing. see Biosocial_criminology. —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 15:44, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Hm, not sure exactly what you are objecting to here? The version before your recent massive edits and deletions to the article described what the sourced chapter stated accurately. You have also inserted a quote not in the sourced chapter. Your edit summary here [44] seems to indicate that you do in fact know that the sourced chapter support what you deleted. Academica Orientalis (talk) 16:10, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

DoD Acadēmica Orientālis on behaviour

The issue of a topic ban in this case is malformed for ANI, no bright lines have been crossed in the recent past, and the distant past is beyond the scope of this venue. There is little to no chance of any bright lines being crossed in the immediate future, and leaving the issue of a topic ban open in this case can only serve an ill purpose, that is, to topic ban Acadēmica Orientālis because of his obnoxious insatiable desire to answer every comment, which has nothing to do with the topic in question. (not an insult, I like the editor, I want to help the editor, it's just an observation which I can get away with because I'm on friendly terms with him, and it's what you're all thinking). The annoyance is not the issue of the topic ban, but it would assist Acadēmica Orientālis if he understood the minor issue of commenting a little better. He is too well educated and articulate to require mentoring, or, nobody can be bothered offering as it is not appropriate, and as this is not about misbehaviour no trouting could apply.

I would like to present the Donut of doom to Acadēmica Orientālis as something much less than a trout, to let him know that his commenting at ANI could use a little more restraint. I will present it as a complaint, because I think he talks too much at ANI, and I think there are other editors who feel he is somewhat verbose. Penyulap ☏ 21:51, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Your "analysis" of the factors behind the support !votes above is completely unprovable and amounts to a gigantic assumption of bad faith on your part. Since most of those editors have cited both specific and general behaviors on AO's part as the reasons behind their comments, WP:AGF requires you to accept what they say at face value, unless you have evidence to show otherwise. To make sweeping assumptions based on nothing isn't terribly helpful one way or the other. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:25, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with your analysis of what most editors have cited as reasons. Despite Penyulap's admonition I do think I should make a comment here about good faith. Maunus is accusing me of acting in bad faith and deliberately being biased regarding favor of biology in social behavior. Now, I certainly admits that I have sometimes have made mistakes in my edits. I have made thousands of edits to numerous articles in a rather short term period and some of them are most likely mistakes. I know that discover mistakes such as spelling and poorly written sentences when I reread what I have written after a while. But this has not been out any malice and I have not deliberately been withholding any information I know of. I have been acting in good faith. Academica Orientalis (talk) 08:51, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Despite my objection to Penyulap's anaylsis of the reasoning behind those who have !voted against you, I do agree with one thinge he said: you'd be best advised to shut up, your replies are doing you no good, and merely dig the hole deeper. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:28, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

That is what I was getting at Beyond My Ken, that is the precise undercurrent that I would like to separate and address so that the primary concern may be addressed upon it's merit alone. You do have a fair point that my computation of motives and tally of said motives is 'unprovable' that is true, but doesn't your second statement illustrate my accurate analysis ?

On a side note, after the exchange on Acadēmica Orientālis talkpage, I find he is a good sport on my candour.

I think the Donut of Doom is a good, polite way to suggest someone talks too much and it 'dooms' them. Penyulap ☏ 11:32, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)

but doesn't your second statement illustrate my accurate analysis? No, not at all. Editors have given good, solid reasons for their "support" !votes, and to assume that they are, instead, a result of annoyance at AO's behavior here is, as I said above, a massive bit of ABF. These are two entirely separate issues, and, while a donut may well be an appropriate response to AO's AN/I overzealousness, his general editing behavior deserves a much more serious sanction. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:47, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I've DoD'd him. Penyulap ☏ 12:57, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Varlaam and the Hedd Wyn article

• Varlaam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Hedd Wyn (film) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

We seem to have a problem here, and a long term one at that. It's previously been discussed at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive600#And now for the aftermath and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive656#Varlaam's recent edits, the latter resulting in a two week block for what he's doing right now. Edit summaries from back then included "Enough with the anti-English Welsh racism", "Rule, Britannia. Britannia rules the waves. Britons (including the Welsh) never, never, never shall be slaves.", and "Wow, you are really, really racist. You are probably in gaol."

Despite the 2 week block in December 2010, he tried changing it again on 17 May 2011, then 21 January 2012, again on 21 January 2012, 23 January 2012 (edit summary of "You are a pathetic embarrassment to dispassionate, disinterested scholarship"), 24 June and 25 June (edit summary of "Your irrational, one-issue POV pushing is a sad, sad embarrassment to all concerned. Why don't you try making a genuine contribution to anything anywhere?").

There's a discussion about it on Talk:Hedd Wyn (film) that Varlaam has never once taken part in. So sporadic long term edit warring, failing to take part in the relevant discussion, abusive edit summaries. It seems little has been learnt since Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive187#User:‎Varlaam reported by User:One Night In Hackney (Result: 60 hours) which was just two weeks ago.

Any ideas on a solution? 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 16:57, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Anyone? 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 16:47, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Simple solution. Indef block for sustained disruption, general incivility, tendentious editing, slow edit warring, editing against consensus, personal attacks. Did I miss anything? Blackmane (talk) 16:57, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I would have to echo ONiH here. I was involved in the dispute that resulted in his most recent block, and it seems the same behaviour is continuing. Edit warring, assumptions of bad faith, attacks on other editors, there certainly seems to be a problem in need of addressing. Mo ainm~Talk 23:32, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I would like to add my vigorous and full-throated support of an indefinite block for Varlaam. He's been allowed to engage in his out of control behavior for far too long, with far too few sanctions. Varlaam is a profuse editor who feels himself an expert, and the final word, on any topic where he chooses to edit. If only incivility and edit warring were only the problems! His standard mode of response to being reverted is edit warring coupled with spates of personal attacks. Unfortunately, the numbers of personal attacks appear fewer than they actually are because they are spread out among the sheet numbers of small edits he makes, making them appear less frequent than is actually the case.

I had the misfortune to cross Varlaam's path on the various season articles for ER (TV series), where he was attempting to add a. long lists of "notable" guest cast without any discernible criteria for notability, and b. OR interpretations of individual episode titles. His response to reverts wass to immediately become disproportionately angry and abusive in an effort to browbeat what he appears to view as an opponent into recognizing his superior knowledge and allowing him to do as he wishes. He takes tremendous pride in the sheer volume of edits he makes both here and on the IMDB, and his talk page is a collection of revelatory "how much/how many" lists that go a long way to explain his attitude to editing and being reverted. Quality simply doesn't concern him; it's all about the numbers of edits and having others stay out of his way as he does as he wishes. Moreover, he sees nothing wrong with judging or demeaning other editors' contributions or editorial style, always viewing his own approach to contributing to the project as superior.

My most recent encounter with him was in February, when he attempted to add a bit of non-notable trivia to an article related to the TV series Rizzoli and Isles. When I reverted it he responded with what was without question the vilest comment on a talk page I've ever had the misfortune to see an editor make, followed by an attempt to bully me into putting in his edit. This is an editor who sees himself as above Wikipedia policies and practices, sees nothing wrong with what he does, sees the other editor as to blame for whatever behavior is called into question, and is prepared to be as combative as it takes to get his way. Worse, he carries grudges endlessly, one major reason the problem on the Hedd Wyn article persists. He's been allowed to get away with his abusive behavior for far too long, and it's past time he was indefinitely blocked from editing. --Drmargi (talk) 12:19, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

So......anyone? 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 12:42, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

It would be nice if we could get an admin comment - even if it just to tell us why you don't want to respond to this. Considering the drama that we went through over alleged slights to socks who had shown that they did not have the communities best interests at heart it would be nice to know why this abuse of long time and productive editors can continue without action or even comment. MarnetteD | Talk 16:01, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, MarnetteD. It's troubling that a discussion this high up the list has been left without comment while new ones get immediate attention, particularly given the long-term problem the editor addressed has been. --Drmargi (talk) 17:21, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

• Here's the thing. (With apologies for the delay, on behalf of the entire admin corps.) If you look at the diffs given above, for the film and for that 3RR case, it seems obvious: an indef block is the way to go. But this editor has 62,000 edits (probably not enough on talk pages), and their block log isn't necessarily that long. I know, any block is bad, but they've had one since 2010, and that makes me hesitant about an indef block. And since the disruption of the film article is so sporadic, a block would only be punitive.

  I'll make you a deal: I'll give the editor one last warning--the next revert on Hedd Wyn (film) will lead to an indefinite block, since it's time to listen. Now, another admin may decide to indef anyway if more edit-warring and incivility occurs on other articles, of course, but this is what I'm willing to do right now. I'll leave them a note pointing to this conversation. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 03:14, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, if I'm honest, that will keep him away from the noted article for a little while, which is a good thing for that article and the editors trying to improve it, but in time, he'll head back when he thinks no one will notice and start again. However, it will have no effect on the larger problem of his confrontational, uncivil interactions, his failure to respect consensus-building processes and his repeated slow edit warring the minute he enters into the process of editing where collaboration with other editors is concerned. Yes, he has 62,000 edits; sheer numbers are the name of the game for him, as I noted above. But a scan down his list of contributions is revealing: when you separate the voluminous small copy edits from the edits where he must interact with other editors, the glaring pattern of problem unregulated behavior is clear; his appallingly short block history simply means no one has taken action in response. And that is why he is emboldened to liken me to to Josef Mengele simply because I challenged his adding trivia to an episode description. --Drmargi (talk) 12:35, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

That prediction of yours may be accurate but that's in part because this board is not necessarily the right forum. That this user hasn't been blocked more often may have many different reasons: a. he didn't deserve more blocks; b. he wasn't reported enough (you just reverted the Mengele comment; I saw no warning on their talk page); c. he's mixing up enough positive edits to stay out of VOA territory. It is possible that an RfC/U is the better way to go with this type of editor; ANI works best for incidents, less well for series of individual, relatively minor incidents that take place over extended periods of time. That they're uncommunicative, well, other admins have blocked people to force them to respond, but I don't make a habit out of that. Drmies (talk) 21:07, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I understand all this in the abstract, but it doesn't help much in application. Every so often, it's hard not to get pretty fed up when IP editors get away with all sorts of nonsense and editors like Varlaam who teflon around important policies such as WP:CIVIL by burying tendentious to confrontational editing in a sea of minor edits, while we average editors who at least try to play by the rules get the short end of the stick. Why would I put a warning on his talk page after the experiences I had with him? It would have no effect but to accelerate the abusive behavior directed toward me. And frankly, I must take issue with being likened to a Nazi war criminal and mass murderer over reverting trivia as a "minor incident". --Drmargi (talk) 13:30, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

User:Animemidatlantic and article Anime Mid-Atlantic

The following relates to User:Animemidatlantic and article Anime Mid-Atlantic about the user's company.

The user appears to have been editing the article as a Single Purpose Account for 24 edits over 5 years. The user was directed to WP:COI five years ago, 20:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC). Editing continued without much incident.

21:03, 21 June 2012‎ (UTC) The user changed "*Attendance Numbers basedon turnstile not unique registration" to "*Attendance Numbers basedactual attendance* If anyone changes the numbers again without authorization. Legal Action will ensue. We know who you are*" and was reverted and warned by Tiptoety with "uw-talkinarticle", including in the Edit Summary of the reversion "Please address on the talk page".

03:30, 22 June 2012 (UTC) The user removed "3,000
(est)<ref name="hr2012"><</ref>" (39 bytes) and the next minute added five attendance numbers, with no explanation.

03:31, 22 June 2012 (UTC) I reverted and notified with "uw-coi-username".

03:38, 22 June 2012 (UTC) I warned with "Uw-delete4".

03:54,22 June 2012 (UTC) The user removed the same 39 bytes of text, again with no explanation. Tiptoety reverted and included in Edit Summary "Please stop removing sourced content".

04:12, 22 June 2012 (UTC) Tiptoety blocked the user for 24 hours for disruptive editing at Anime Mid-Atlantic, and changed a setting a minute later.

15:47, 22 June 2012 (UTC) 76.104.61.168 (evidently the user logged out) removed the same 39 bytes of text, again with no explanation. I believe this to be the same user logged out, as it is also an SPA only interested in that article. Tiptoety reverted.

16:18, 22 June 2012 (UTC) Tiptoety blocked 76.104.61.168 for 24 hours for block evasion. Tiptoety appears to agree with me that it is the same user logged out.

19:45, 23 Jun 2012 (UTC) The user (undoubtedly the person responsible for http://www.animemidatlantic.com/ given the "About / Contact Us" link) used Special:EmailUser to email me the following message (in which I have only obscured my email address and eliminated the end matter boilerplate):

Email received by User:Jeff G.
(Email content removed per WP:EMAILABUSE; no authorization given to reproduce.) --64.85.214.21 (talk) 07:13, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I was advised to post the preceding here by an Administrator.   — Jeff G. ツ (talk) 03:56, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Given that you aren't Wikipedia's legal counsel, I'm not sure what (person's name redacted by User:Jorgath) hopes to gain informing you that he will file a lawsuit. Having read the site policies though, wouldn't this be a violation of Wikipedia:No legal threats? However, I've also read Wikipedia:Don't overlook legal threats, so perhaps the content is wrong? If so, can we just correct this? - Letsbefiends (talk) 04:12, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I've had a quick look at the article, and actually this seems to be a storm in a teacup. Firstly, making legal threats is very foolish and won't get the editor very far. However, there are actually two sets of attendance figures, so while the figures we have listed are accurate, they aren't the full story. May I suggest that folks take it to the talk page - I've started a discussion. I'm sure that a compromise can be made - it seems a little silly to be battling over this matter! - Letsbefiends (talk) 04:20, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

While an Admin advised you to post it here, you probably should have redacted the real-life name of the person who sent it to you as well, per WP:OUTING. Not your fault; you were advised to do this by an admin. Could someone oversight that? I've redacted the name for now, but that won't help in the edit summary. As for them, they should be reported at WP:COI and also possibly banned for the legal threat. That said, if Letsbefiends (or anyone) can figure out the proper answer to the problem raised, good. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 04:46, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

The editor who made the original legal threat should be directed to Wikipedia:Contact_us/Article_problem/Factual_error_(from_subject), and almost certainly should be blocked from editing until the matter is resolved. If it were me, I would also send the email (with all headers) to [email protected], including a link this ANI. The talk page discussion will handle things from a content end. --Tgeairn (talk) 05:08, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Note: - User:Ironholds blocked the editor who made the orginal legal threat. I have added a note on the editor's talk page explaining the block. --Tgeairn (talk) 05:55, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Slightly off-topic, but are there any sources other than SPS and local passing news for this article? Also, although we should not ignore a threat, does it make sense that a reputable organisation is using a free @(domain redacted by User:Jorgath) email? Anyway, back to the matter at hand... --Tgeairn (talk) 04:48, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it makes sense re: the e-mail. As someone who's been to - (and once helped to organize) - sci-fi/fantasy, gaming, and anime conventions, I can assure you that only the larger ones (and 3,000ish per con is sort of medium) will bother with getting their own e-mail server. Most will get a domain name for their website, but will just link a perfectly normal business yahoo or gmail account from the website. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 05:00, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't have much experience in the convention field. --Tgeairn (talk) 05:02, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I removed the content of the email per WP:EMAILABUSE, which states "You should not post the email itself on the wiki without permission (although you can describe briefly in summary what it contains or shows). This is partly due to copyright concerns, given that Wikipedia pages are able to be re-used by anyone." I saw no authorization given by the sender to reproduce the email here, so I removed it. Since some personal info was included in the original post, some info may need to be oversighted. If I am in error, please feel free to revert. --64.85.214.21 (talk) 07:13, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

You were and were not correct at the same time. Reproducing the e-mail exactly is counter to WP:EMAILABUSE, as you said. However, the sender should have no expectation of general privacy of the e-mail unless they specifically ask for and are promised confidentiality. In this case, what there should be is a summary of the e-mail's contents, which may include limited quotation, but not the actual full text of the e-mail itself (nor any really significant portion of it).

My attempt to summarize this: The source e-mail address that I saw before it was removed, which I will not go into too much detail on, was unmistakably linked to the user and article in question and was hosted on a free-registration e-mail site. I think that's enough detail about the address without revealing too much private info. The content consisted of a legal threat, unambiguously, against WMF/en.wikipedia. The sender appeared to believe, for some reason, that Jeff G. was a person of authority in those bodies. The sender was upset that a) someone (Jeff, in his supposed role with WMF and/or en.wikipedia) had not responded to an urgent e-mail, and b) that "Wikipedia" (again, in the person of Jeff) was insisting on including information in the aforementioned article that was in some way detrimental, financially, to the business of the convention. The sender demanded that something be done, and that they get a response, or else unspecified legal processes would take place. The sender signed the e-mail with their real name and job title, claiming a position of significant authority with the convention organization (Assistant Chairman of something-or-other, I don't remember). - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 08:02, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

The part where you say the sender has no expectation of privacy may be true under normal situations, but by reposing it on WP our licensing opens up the email to endless re-posting via CC-BY-SA. Since the sender did not agree to those terms when they sent it (I don't think they did–I've never sent an email using WP), re-posting it here is not the same as re-posting it on a typical website. Just saying, NBD. I know this is straying off-topic, but seeing as the sender has been blocked and a summary of the email has been provided, I guess this is resolved (unless oversight/revdel of the email is necessary). Rgrds. --64.85.214.21 (talk) 08:31, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. The sender has an expectation of copyright with regards to their e-mail, and doesn't freely release it. However, precedent on WP seems to indicate that a summary of such an e-mail, rather than the e-mail itself, is fair use. Furthermore, as I understand it (and IANAL), the sender has no expectation of confidentiality - if you say something to me, I'm free to say that you said it unless it would break a policy (like WP:OUTING) to do so. It's just that the actual e-mail text should not be posted under CC-BY-SA without the sender's permission, and so should not be in Wikipedia. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 09:34, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I have had the following text on my userpage for years:

"I do not accept any messages sent via PM, IM, or Email. If any such message is received, the sender acknowledges that: the message (including its source IP Address) will not be considered confidential or proprietary; I and my affiliates are under no obligation to keep it confidential; and I will have an unrestricted, irrevocable, world-wide, royalty free right to use, communicate, reproduce, publish, display, distribute, exploit, post, report, and/or ridicule it in any manner I choose. "

I hope that puts the outing issue to rest.   — Jeff G. ツ (talk) 12:34, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, but what you have there is called "implied consent." The implied consent is that if someone is sending you an email, it is implied that they consent to it's release based on your message. However, many US states (and I an not sure about other countries) require explicit consent. The user has to say, or even sign, that they explicitly waive their right and expectation of privacy. So on a personal level, I'd just recommend you not expect such a statement to hold too much weight if you get into any trouble.--v/r - TP 13:18, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

If Stephenie Meyer were to email you the next installation of Twilight, do you think your disclaimer buried in your confusing meandering userpage that someone dosen't even need to look at to email you would be enough to imply consent for you to release the novel under CC-BY-SA? Given that the answer to that is obviously "no," why do you feel it's enough to imply consent to something else? Given that the page they got to when they emailed you stated "Unless the matter is confidential, it is usually better to leave a message on the user's talk page," do you not think there's an implied confidence there? Hipocrite (talk) 13:23, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I'd say yes and no. I am not a lawyer either. I'd venture that your disclaimer does in fact give you the right to re-use e-mails without the sender having an expectation of confidentiality, at least without them asking to opt-in to confidentiality. However, that doesn't mean that WP:OUTING wouldn't still apply, in the sense that private information e-mailed to you is not automatically considered to have been self-disclosed on-wiki. What it means is that you can't shouldn't get in trouble for forwarding an e-mail, and you probably could post that entire e-mail under CC-BY-SA. But if you post it on en.wikipedia, you still would need to redact personal info (name, address, e-mail, IP address, phone number, etc.) from that posted e-mail, unless it had previously been disclosed by that user on-wiki. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 13:54, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I believe WMF System administrators (formerly referred to as developers) have access to logs that can confirm said viewing (that the offender viewed my userpage prior to emailing me) in the case of an actual lawsuit. Also, I did not release the email as if it were my own work, I quoted it and criticized its sender's behavior under fair use. In addition, the sender's email address was already plainly visible on his organization's website, and he had already made a legal threat on-wiki, so I believed he was just forum-shopping and had no expectation of the privacy of his email address or his threatening stance. Furthermore, I did email [email protected] per Wikipedia:Contact us/Article problem/Factual error (from subject) on the user's behalf and to protect English Wikipedia, the WMF, and myself; [Ticket#2012062410003829] was assigned and as a result, Dougweller (talk · contribs) asked me to take the original email to ANI in these two posts. I am willing to add to the statement "make derivative works, use in a commercial manner, " if that will help.   — Jeff G. ツ (talk) 14:25, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

As I said, if you are in, they are in, or the state of Florida is a 'explicit consent' state, it's not going to matter diddly squat what you have on your userpage or what can be proven in the HTTP Access logs. What is going to matter is if they explicitly said 'I consent'.--v/r - TP 14:27, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

The sender is in the Commonwealth of Virginia, is that an 'explicit consent' jurisdiction, and do you have a ref for the applicable statute?   — Jeff G. ツ (talk) 14:33, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

The hell if I know. I'm just giving you a heads up. Not everyone in the future who sends you an email is going to be in the Commonwealth of Virginia. I'm just expressing to you what I've been told in the course of developing instructional videos and audio. What I am saying could be a load of crap. I'm just suggesting you not be surprised if you find out that your disclaimer really isnt worth shit in law.--v/r - TP 14:37, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up.   — Jeff G. ツ (talk) 14:43, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

The sender's name and the first half of his position are mentioned in the article's second reference (I stopped looking when I found that).   — Jeff G. ツ (talk) 14:43, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - Jeff, you keep pointing out who the sender was and equating that off-wiki person with an editor here. That information has been redacted in this thread twice already. You were right to bring this here, and I don't think anyone is looking to slap you over the Outing, but probably best to leave the two personalities (onWiki v offWiki) separate. --Tgeairn (talk) 16:54, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Point taken.   — Jeff G. ツ (talk) 18:07, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Private e-mails are not to be published on-wiki, whether sent through the Wikimedia e-mail system or otherwise. Disclaimers on talkpages or the like do not change this rule. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:50, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I've always heard that e-mails, in this kind of circumstance, are considered copyrighted, so there is no "implied consent". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think there's one exception: that if I sent an e-mail to someone else, I would have the right to post my e-mail here. But not their response. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:09, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

User:Mayumashu

User:Mayumashu has been going around removing the ", Nova Scotia" from the titles of Nova Scotia community articles. While WP:CANSTYLE does allow this, this mass move of articles, without any explanation, makes me doubt this user is going through the care and attention a move needs. I have reverted the obvious violations, but I wonder if all moves this user has made in the past couple of weeks should be reverted. 117Avenue (talk) 05:06, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:CANSTYLE does allow for these moves, so how have any been "violations"? ", Nova Scotia" is a disambiguate that is not necessary for the renames I've done, when the place name in question is unique to WP articles. Where the disambiguate has been necessary, I've not renamed of course. Mayumashu (talk) 11:37, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

It's busywork that accomplishes nothing useful for the readers. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:39, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

If the current title is fine then it is probably best to leave it. However, things like this are not correct as per CANSTYLE and should be reverted. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 12:21, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:CANSTYLE#Places #2, "smaller settlements must have unique place names to qualify for a page move," as well as further criteria listed there. Unique names like Hantsport and Tatamagouche can be moved, but your mass moves makes me doubt you made sure all passed all the criteria, the names may also refer to a person, a stream, or lake. 117Avenue (talk) 00:49, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

If we don't have any other articles with such names, the ", Nova Scotia" is not needed as a disambiguator, so what's the problem? bobrayner (talk) 10:24, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Creeks, lakes, the problem is Mayumashu is moving these. 117Avenue (talk) 03:54, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Erm, creeks and lakes should not have ", State/Provincename" as a disambiguator. They should use the (standard disambiguation format). - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Small communities should as well use the standard disambiguation. 117Avenue (talk) 06:12, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Communities of all sizes, that aren't large enough (i.e. Miami) to stand alone, use the "City, State/Province" format, the same as if you were addressing an envelope, per WP:COMMONNAME. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:02, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Questions on missing page history and moving a list into an article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Resolved

 – List and history restored - Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:36, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

It appears that List of Museums and Cultural Institutions in Chicago was recently moved into the Tourism in Chicago article. Where is the edit history of the now redirected list? Also, there is no discussion on the talk page. Are there guidelines for such moves, it seems we have lists and articles for different reasons? Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:28, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

The merge was done by Thomas Paine1776 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), but it seems he did not comply with several of the steps mandated by WP:MERGE. There's no move proposal or discussion, no mandatory edit summary (which means the merged article is a copyvio), nor appropriate use of the {{Copied}} tag on both articles' talk pages. I'll inform Thomas Paine1776 of this discussion. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 12:50, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, perhaps when he appears, he can also explain the thinking behind renaming an article about an organization (The Convention Bureau) into a generalized topic on Tourism? Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:08, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

That would be a content discussion best held on the appropriate talk pages, or through the relevant dispute resolution pages if that fails. The matter of copyvio-creating merges is, however, appropriate for WP:ANI. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 13:14, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

OK just wanted to get the full history out, so that any dispute (or no dispute) would be streamlined, as it could possibly effect the proper procedures on article arrangements for getting done whatever he wanted to get done. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:21, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

The information in the list was placed in the tourism article, since there is no need to have a list that is part of the same subject, unless the list is so exhaustive as to makes the tourism article too long. Tourism articles generally contain lists of sites including museums. There is no history to speak of for the List of Museums article, only a couple of lines. Not opposed to having a separate list per se. Incorporating it helps improve the article. Thanks.Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 13:29, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Re the history of the list. That cannot be right, as I've previously seen a much longer history. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:39, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

The are dozens of edits by a number of users to List of museums and cultural institutions in Chicago, not "no history to speak of". By merging without proper attribution, as mandated by WP:MERGE, the merged article is not properly licenced. Complying with Wikipedia's copyright policies is not optional. You need to fix this right now. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 13:43, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Here is the list of Museums history [45] to which I was referring (I see someone moved it once before). A public information list probably cannot even be copyrighted, so not sure what is being discussed about that. The editing notice says, "If you do not want your writing to be edited, used, and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here, etc. . . ". Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 13:54, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Organization of a list is copyrightable. And proper procedure for merge still have to be followed. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:05, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, any text written is subject to the copyright of the author. That is the position under English law, at least, and I would think US law is pretty similar. But the point made on copyright is puzzling given that editors release their text for free use per the licence. Could you expand on "By merging without proper attribution, as mandated by WP:MERGE, the merged article is not properly licenced." I've not seen that point made before, and I can't see it in WP:MERGE. Out of interest, could you point to the source for that. Thanks. DeCausa (talk) 14:13, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you're parsing what I wrote differently to how I'd intended. I mean: to comply with the copyright attribution requirements of CC-by-SA and GFDL, when merging one must add the appropriate "merged from" info to the merged article, so someone can know who owns the copyright of the merged article by looking at its history. Without doing that, the merged article contains unattributed content, and so that merged article doesn't comply with CC-by-SA or GFDL. I wasn't saying that WP:MERGE creates copyvios, I was saying that ignoring it does. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 14:20, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Thomas Paine1776, where did this content come from? -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 14:07, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Some of the content is summarized from the main page. Regarding the prior history isn't it accomplished by a link on the tourism article discussion page? Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 14:19, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

No, that isn't sufficient. WP:MERGE tells you what to do. What you're doing, large chunks of text appear, seemingly from nowhere, with no edit summary and no explanation on the receiving talk page, which makes for an impossible papertrail. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 14:32, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I have notified Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chicago of this discussion. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:24, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I think we need Admin tools here. Can the status quo ante be restored? The only time I was involved with something like this there was an admin merge of the histories. I take it this article was created by moving the article about the Convention and Tourism Bureau, an organization, and adding the list of Museums and Cultural Institutions to it. It seems, it would be better organized by creating an article on tourism (if that is what is wanted) and linking to the separate organization article and the separate list. The organization has a separate existence, and the list is not just for tourism or tourists. At least it would be simpler to approach incrementally and it avoids the copyright problem. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:24, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me that the content in the current article is a prose article followed by a list article. The list article should be separated. Based on the discussion above, I think that is how it use to be. I am in favor of restoration.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:56, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Tony on this. The list article and the prose article should be separate. If the goal of the project is to make Chicago-related articles more organized and readable, this is counterproductive as it is not an improvement over what was in place before. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 18:46, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Have restored the List of museums and cultural institutions since there seems to be interest in keeping a separate list.Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 22:47, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience and good faith work. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:58, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

• Request If some Admin who understands the technical aspects can make sure the history of the List is properly back in place that would be appreciated before this is closed.Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:12, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

The history of the list is not affected, its still there.Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 00:34, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User: Logical Cowboy

Logical Cowboy (talk) has been on a constant harassment of my articles past and present, which appears to be due to a failed attempt to have this article deleted. He has been WP:HOUNDING me on several locations [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51].He has also made several snide comments,[52] at an attempt to possibly have me engage in some kind of confrontation…so as to perhaps have me blocked. Now I understand the need for spam, and vandalism control, but he has taken it to an unfair level with me. There has been no constructive input from this editor, only constant badgering nit picking, of my references, and article creation. [53] --‎Jetijonez ^Fire! 02:30, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with the addition of the "confusing" and "essay" tags as the article may be perplexing for viewers. SwisterTwister talk 02:36, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

To me, it doesn't look like Logical Cowboy is trying to hound or harass you. From what I can tell from his edits he means no ill will and is following good faith. Logical Cowboy may have unintentionally insulted or alarmed you, however, to the "snide" comments that he made, that was in fact you who made them, so we may all feel the bite of a WP: BOOMERANG. Robby The Penguin (talk) (contribs) 03:09, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with Penguin. This may all be just a confusion between you and Cowboy, since I can't find clear evidences of hounding or any other notable behavioral harassment against you. Regards. —Hahc21 03:42, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. With regard to Jetijonez, this looks like a matter of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. He just had an article deleted WP:Articles for deletion/THIS Brand Clothing because it failed WP:CORP. The sources were very weak. The next day, he created this article Thrillscape 3D which has no independent sources at all, about a company that gets no hits on Google News. ("Business Week" (sic) is a link to a social networking site, not a magazine article.) Maybe the actual problem here is with JetiJonez' sourcing, and his serial creation of articles about non-notable subjects. The other comments such as that I am upset because a speedy was denied three weeks ago or that I am trying to get another editor blocked are completely unfounded. Some of the "hounding" episodes listed above are removing a superfluous apostrophe and correcting the capitalization of a heading. I won't stop looking at sources, in addition to everything else, but there is no ill will on my part. Let's all get back to the articles. Logical Cowboy (talk) 22:15, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, this is quite the WP: SHOT. Robby The Penguin (talk) (contribs) 19:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

User:Alan Liefting again

See User talk:Alan Liefting, specifically my commenbt here, his reply (to further comments by other editors) Take it to ANI, my final warning here and his further actions [54] [55] [56] [57] . I'm going to bed now, so if someone wants to unblock (or extend the block further), go ahead. Alan's edits are still likely to damage Wikipedia, by making more work for editors creating drafts in user-space or AfC before moving the articles to the live encyclopedia. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:35, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Note also the related discussion Wikipedia:Bot requests#User sandboxes in content categories - again. On the one hand, he considers it a trivial matter[58], but on the other hand it (or the principle) is important enough for him to get blocked over. No one doubted that the initial edits (and the bot request) were made in good faith and to improve Wikipedia: but his refusal to change his approach after being asked by different people to do so, and his immediate continuation of these edits after it was made clear that it would get him blocked are clear examples of disruptive editing. It's sad that a block is needed for something that could have been easily avoided. Fram (talk) 09:46, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Isn't the blocking admin "involved" so maybe somebodyelse should have blocked? And why block and then "going to bed now"? Couldn't you just wake up in the morning in do this? Just asking, not passing judgement on either party. --Mollskman (talk) 11:09, 29 June 2012 (UTC)I have to go to work now so I won't respond right away :), I know, sort of ironic.--Mollskman (talk) 11:11, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Can we just get it carved in stone somewhere that 1) user pages don't get categorized to mainspace categories (i.e. cats other than cats specifically for userspace) and 2) the fix for this, for any passing wikignomes, is to replace these links with the colon-added form and not to simply remove the cat. The arguments to WP:preserve the links to categories are good, as are the arguments against making userspace drafts appear prematurely in live mainspace categories. Wikignomes, including Alan, are encouraged to make this change (and affected users can be directed to an explanation of why it's a good change).

Removal of these cats from userspace should be regarded as any other edit in another user's userspace: potentially problematic and not encouraged. Removing obviously_(sic) incorrect categories would be regarded as any other such edit: assumed to be well intentioned, probably an improvement, but also possibly a provocation to other editors, if they aren't intending that userspace page to be a collaboration as yet. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:29, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Not sure that this was worth a block, but I see no evidence that Arthur Rubin has acted inappropriately here, just that this might have been handled better all round. On the content issue I'm inclined to agree that removing the cats was unhelpful. It's all a bit meh really. I certainly think Alan should be unblocked if he undertakes not to do any more of these, if that is the consensus. --John (talk) 14:12, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

There is no prohibition from removing them, after all, they're still in the edit history, and can be easily restored should the draft be moved to article-space.

But in the face of such criticism, the diplomatic thing to do would have been to do one of the other common practice solutions: just comment the categories out or use the colon trick.

If I were to guess, I think that this may be more a case of identifying an pattern of disruptive editing (note the "again" in the header above) than just only focused on the category removals.

As such, endorse.

That said, as noted by User:John, above, "I certainly think Alan should be unblocked if he [agrees] not to do any more of these". - jc37 14:53, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Does anyone else think it's time to start discussing the removal of Alan's AWB privileges and/or a topic ban from automated editing? He doesn't seem to be cooperative enough to responsibly use such tools. -Scottywong| confess _ 16:25, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Not quite yet. Perhaps we could discuss putting him on probation with automated editing though. My idea is that he's placed under a strict restriction: if anyone raises a concern about an automated edit set he's doing, he must stop until the concerns have been resolved (and it can't just be Alan's opinion that it's resolved - there has to be some kind of consensus). If he does not abide by that restriction, he's automatically topic banned from automated editing. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 20:22, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
    • I'd support that. -Scottywong| communicate _ 23:19, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

FYI - Alan has escalated the situation since this discussion. I have decided to remove his AWB access for the time being. See the subsection below and Alan's talk page. -Scottywong| chat _ 02:01, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Not in isolation. He's being soundly attacked as a bad editor in general, with vague references (no proof; just attacks) that his last 5000 edits are all bad, implications he was found guilty at WP:AN/I recently (provably false), and etc. Stop kicking the puppy. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:05, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• He makes 12 edits using HotCat scattered over 2.5 days that are deemed problematic and you guys want to sanction his automated editing and removing removed his AWB privileges? Do you have any idea how absurd this looks?!?!? My prediction is coming true. 12 edits are being turned into a dispute of epic proportions. Drop the sticks and walk away. This is a non-problem. --Hammersoft (talk) 11:57, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Admitting to disruption to prove a point

Ok, so Alan has lodged an unblock appeal here where he says (paraphrased) that he deliberately disrupted Wikipedia to prove his point. It's not the first time he's seemingly lost the plot and disrupted the project (like this little outburst at WP:AIV), and been blocked for it. I think, at the very least, we should consider removing his access to the semi-automated tools he uses ad infinitum even when asked to desist, and perhaps consider topic blocks (such as recategorisation) until such a time we are confident that he is improving the project rather than causing work for others to undo/redo the edits he's making. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:16, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Wow, that was quite the effective WP:SHOT he just fired. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 21:49, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• How many times has he been to ANI now over the years for his AWB and automated edits? I don't really want to dig up the old discussions, but I can if it's wanted. It's probably going to be pretty long. I think, at this point, enough is enough, especially when Alan was at ANI, what, twice in the past two weeks for automated edit issues? Silverseren^C 22:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
• Right, ok, this is getting ridiculous. He disrupted purposely, to make a point, and has now stated flat-out that he intends to continue that disruption when his block wears off. I know Alan is long-term constructive editor, in general, but I'm really struggling now to find a reason at this point why he shouldn't be indeffed until he's willing to stop disrupting in this manner. Bad: losing a long-term editor who's done a lot for Wikipedia. Worse: not giving an involuntary vacation to a long-term editor who's done a lot for Wikipedia but has now gone disruptively off the rails and is informing us that he has no intention of going back onto the rails any time soon. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 01:45, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• You know, what I'm seeing is a puppy who peed on the floor. In response, he was spanked. Then when the dog wasn't happy about being spanked and seems to intend on peeing again, you spank him again. When he seems to not like that, you decide the next best course of action to improve his behavior is kick him in the jaw, and throw him down the stairs. You don't make a situation better by adding fuel and flame to it. Drop it. If Alan returns to removing cats by way of removal instead of colons, then block for increasingly long periods of time. Easy. We don't need to make this a federal case. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:03, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Um, it was dropped, about 12 hours ago. Why pop up in each and every thread here Hammersoft? Move on. We all have. If Alan is intent on saying he'll deliberately disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point, he deserves whatever he gets. The Rambling Man (talk)
• In addition to the ridiculous hyperbolic characterization of the consequences of Alan's own behavior, you do realize that you are, in effect, saying that Alan, an adult human being, has the same self-control as a puppy dog? Is that a characterization of an adult human being that you think is helpful? --Calton | Talk 13:59, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

AWB access removed

I've removed Alan's access to AWB, mostly per this comment (see bottom of the diff). Alan clearly states that he fully intends to continue making bad automated edits after his block expires. These are not the comments of someone who understands what he's done wrong and is striving to correct behavior that the community has clearly condemned. For those of you joining this thread, Alan has been at ANI several times in the last few weeks regarding his misuse of AWB and other automated editing tools to make large numbers of edits. I've left more extensive comments on Alan's talk page. -Scottywong| gab _ 02:00, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Good call: I fully support removing a tool from an editor who says he intends to continue misusing it. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 04:39, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
• Extremely poor call and Scotty you need to seriously consider whether you are appropriate to the administrator roll. Take away his AWB privs for using HotCat on 12 edits in a way you find objectionable? This is like painting your house a different color as a response to a solicitor showing up at your door. --Hammersoft (talk) 11:59, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Reality check: he's not having privileges revoked for making a few bad edits, he's having them revoked insisting he will continue to make more bad edits -- bad edits because he can't be arsed to do a simple edit properly -- not mention a track record of making questionable edits. --Calton | Talk 13:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• This particular call does not make sense to me. Take away AWB priviledges for misuse of AWB. Don't take it away for misuse of HotCat. Alan's actions here were wrong; they were not a misuse of AWB though. LadyofShalott 12:57, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• That's true, a revoking of all automated editing would make more sense, since it's such editing in general that he's threatening to continue with in a disruptive manner. Silverseren^C 19:43, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Support. If he refuses to use a tool properly, why continue to let him use it? --Calton | Talk 13:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• In this case, he did not use the tool at all, properly or otherwise. Also, as has been pointed out, the last ANI case that was about his AWB had absolutely no consensus that he misused it. If anything, it was leaning the other way. LadyofShalott 14:02, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

It's not about which tool he's using to make bad edits, it's about the fact that his behavior with regard to automated editing in general is unsatisfactory. Based on his recent actions and the statement in the above diff, he is far too high a risk to allow continued AWB access. I've left a further explanation at the growing thread on Alan's talk page. -Scottywong| spill the beans _ 14:06, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Mild Support: While I'm not nearly as inflexibly convinced as some people here that Alan is a force of evil whose edits must not only be reflexively opposed but routinely characterized as destructive, and that LadyofShalott is right that there is no consensus that any of this is true, there certainly is a broad faction holding that they are bad edits. As such, Alan should properly gain a fresh consensus for them, and hold off until he does, and so his language in the diff Scotty put up is disturbing. Announcing that you're going to bull ahead no matter what anyone says, short of being blocked, is poor form. Ravenswing 14:16, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - first, it is removed because he is basically saying that he is going to use the tool in the future, and when he does, it could be in a way that could be objected to by others. It is impossible to already conclude that the way he is going to use it will be inappropriate (a kind of WP:CRYSTAL problem). So this is 'preventing' something that may not happen, but which someone thinks is highly likely to happen. Anyways, anyone using AWB is capable of doing actions which may be objected in the future. Secondly, he was using hotcat in a way that some people find objectable, and we are here now with AWB. By the way, can someone show me where in this diff Alan is saying that he is going to use AWB to continue editing .. he was blocked for using HotCat, he says he will continue to do the edits he was blocked for, so we take AWB. Do we now need to find editors who find it bad that AfC articles have colon-ed categories at the bottom (I find it ugly - that is only used in discussion, then you get strange links at the bottom - I don't like it, newbies may not like it - just like they may not like the altogether removal of the categories). --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 14:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
• Support we tend to provide use of things like AWB to trusted editors who are happy to stop mass-automated edits and discuss what they do. We also consider that trusted editors will not state plainly and clearly that after their block period runs out, they will engage in behaviour that will once again disrupt Wikipedia to prove a WP:POINT. I don't care about the preceding 5,000 edits, nor really the twelve where Alan could have just commented out the categories rather than wholesale delete them (of course, things like HotCat don't allow that, so it slows Alan's edit count increase to do something other than just remove categories). What I do care about is the fact he would rather go ahead and repeat disruptive behaviour, be blocked again, rather than work collaboratively to find a solution to the various issues that have been brought up. It may be a coincidence, but Alan's been blocked for this kind of thing before, has been blocked for deliberate disruption at WP:AIV, has been brought up a number of times at AN/I and has now offered to continue to disrupt Wikipedia. Do we really think editors who have this kind of track record should be afforded the privilege of the use of tools we tend to enable for users in good standing? The Rambling Man (talk) 15:41, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
• Support Obvious action to take when a user is threatening to continue disruptive editing with automated programs even after being told to stop by multiple users. Silverseren^C 19:42, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose; he said he was going to use AWB to do things which are inappropriate; as far as I can tell, he didn't actually use AWB for the specific actions I was complaining about. Of course, there may be other inappropriate things he was using AWB for, in which case, I'd have to Support. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:03, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Not quite, he said "I have a dilemma. I want to fix Wikipedia but cannot do so if blocked. When, and if, I am unblocked I have every intention of doing the very things for which I was blocked in order to improve Wikipedia." which doesn't mean to say he was going to mis-use AWB. It meant to say that he was happy to tell us all he would be happy to disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point. Ordinarily, this would result in an indefinite block; of course, while Alan's positive contributions are welcome, deliberately setting out to disrupt the project, and after his block for flipping his lid at WP:AIV, the privilege of having AWB is in question. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:09, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

vandalism

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Please block http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/89.207.212.95 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/83.100.245.178 for BLP vandalism, thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.203.57.28 (talk) 09:50, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

 Done, thank you. --Bongwarrior (talk) 09:57, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks 192.203.57.28 (talk) 09:58, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

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User:Robertmossing continued disruption at Debate over the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

I looked in at Debate over the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which is an article I removed from my watchlist after a series of personal attacks from User:Robertmossing. Out of curiousity I looked in today and noted that he has continued in the same vein following a block for edit warring.

See [59] he is continuing to edit war as before.

See here, here, here, here and here, where the personal attacks are continuing.

Judging by his comments the last time, he appears to be seeking an indefinite block [60] in order to prove that his views are being "censored". I think the time has come for a warning, followed by a series of escalating blocks if his disruptive behaviour continues. Bringing it here for community discussion. Wee Curry Monster talk 12:21, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Either I'm blind or the personal attacks are masterfully camouflaged. The argument is spirited and there's a lot of back and forth. I could possibly go along with Robertmossing being a disruptive but civil POV pusher. Personally, I think you're going to have to do much better than those diffs to call him out for personal attacks. If anything, apart from the digging in of heels by Robertmossing on various points, there doesn't seem to be anything more serious than a marginally heated debate on the talk page of an article dealing with a controversial topic. Blackmane (talk) 13:26, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Concur with Blackmane. Civil disagreement is not the same as personal attacks. If there are diffs I may have missed, feel free to provide them WCM. --John (talk) 14:18, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

See also [61] where he continues edit warring on another users page. I wouldn't describe multiple headings such as "Seems to me that Binkernet deletes all opposition to the bomb." as spirited debate, they're a fairly clear attack on the individual editor accusing them of censorship. His edits are definitely disruptive, the edit warring sailing close to 3RR continuously is not making for a reasonable debate. I think it will end in tears and had hoped to nip that in the bud. I would hope someone takes a deeper look before it does. Wee Curry Monster talk 18:42, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

That's not really edit warring, so much as apparent confusion on his part. He posts a question on the talk page, which is archived by the user without responding there, and instead the question and answer is copied to the article talk page without informing him. So he thinks it was deleted out of hand, and tries to return the question [62]. He gets a rather bitey response, [63], and then seems to accidentally add it back, before self reverting with a thankyou (but misses some of what he'd accidentally re-added). Then he gets the 3RR warning. It was a bit bitey as an exchange, but I wouldn't put too much weight on it as demonstrating any particularly bad behaviour. - Bilby (talk) 23:41, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Me three. Spirited debate is part of the process, and sometimes that means blunt statements. Unless I'm missing something, I see lots of opinion, and maybe a little gruffness, but mainly real discussion and an attempt to back his claims. As for "Seems to me that Binkernet deletes all opposition to the bomb.", I wouldn't consider that a personal attack, even if it is a bit pointed. He didn't use the word censor, you may be reading too much into the statement. As for 3RR, WP:AN3 is the place to go if he breaches that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 18:50, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Put me on the other side, then, 'cause I was taking Robertmossing's remarks as about the editors, not the content of their arguments. I also have the sense he's pushing a POV, & will continue to regardless of warnings. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 00:42, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

He's still making abusive comments: [64]. Robert's editing style is to add poor quality material to the article, edit war a bit to keep it there, and then accuse the other editors of bias rather than attempt to justify the stuff he wants to add. Nick-D (talk) 08:07, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

And he's still edit warring. Here are the diffs for the last couple of days: 08:59, 28 June 2012, 07:33, 29 June 2012, 09:07, 29 June 2012, 08:27, 30 June 2012. The discussion of this material on the talk page has attracted no support to include it in the article, but yet he keeps on edit warring. Nick-D (talk) 08:41, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

If you see him breaking 3RR, WP:AN3 is that-a-way. Otherwise, I just see one side in a content dispute trying to get leverage by taking a user to an enforcement noticeboard. It is your contention that the user is adding material which is of "poor quality"; that contention is as close to the OP's allegation of "personal attack" as anything else I saw there. Solve the argument in article talk civilly or use WP:DR. AP:AN/I is not WP:DR. --John (talk) 09:35, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• On further reflection and after discussion at my talk, I decided to try WP:0RR on this article. There has been a long-term edit war here with several editors behaving sub-optimally. Let's see how it goes. --John (talk) 15:47, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Nangparbat

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Another IP sock of Nangparbat Special:Contributions/109.145.243.63 has appeared after the last one was blocked. Please take care. --DBigXray 14:35, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Please note this edit, which looked like section blanking to me. --Williamsburgland (talk) 14:47, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Blocked already --DBigXray 14:50, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

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Block review: Hla123

Wikipedia's Conflict of Interest policy states: "COI editing is strongly discouraged. COI editors causing disruption may be blocked. Editors with COIs who wish to edit responsibly are strongly encouraged to follow Wikipedia policies and best practices scrupulously. They are also encouraged to disclose their interest on their user pages and also on the talk page of the related article they are editing, and to request others' views, particularly if those edits may be contested. Most Wikipedians will appreciate your honesty...."

On June 22 a new editor User:Hla123, with apparent connection to a management company — a COI editor, a paid editor — created a piece for a client Matthew Lutton. The piece was neither speedied nor sent to PROD nor sent to AFD. Instead, the content-creator was instantly blocked by User:OrangeMike, an outspoken opponent of paid editing (diffs on request, but I will treat this as axiomatic). The following canned message was used: "Your account's edits and/or username indicate that it is being used on behalf of a company, group, celebrity or other well-known individual, or organization for purposes of promotion and/or publicity. The edits may have violated one or more of our rules on spamming, which include: adding inappropriate external links, posting advertisements, and using Wikipedia for promotion. Wikipedia has many articles on companies, groups, and organizations, but such groups are generally discouraged from using Wikipedia to write about themselves. In addition, usernames like yours are disallowed under our username policy."

Fair enough, bad account name. There's a template for that. However, OrangeMike added the following comment as an edit summary: "HLA cannot have an account here; nor can any HLA employee use us to publicize their clients such as Matthew Lutton." There is nothing whatsoever in Wikipedia's Conflict of Interest policy which would justify either this block or this bitey language, which is clearly designed to scare off the editor from any future contributions.

I appealed this block on behalf of the probably-now-long-gone new content-creator and OrangeMike's aggressive tone and block was upheld by administrator User:jpgordon, who told me that "Perhaps the editor making this request needs to reconsider his understanding of WP:COI."

No, I understand COI Policy fine. COI edits are discouraged, not banned. COI editors are encouraged to follow best practices, not required. COI-related disruption may be cause for banning, not COI-related editing. Since this piece has not been treated as spam via speedy, PROD, or AFD, it is not spam, ergo, not disruption.

I would like this block to be reversed, for the record, and administrators OrangeMike and JPGordon admonished for attempting to formulate policy with their blocking buttons. All parties will be notified of this discussion momentarily. Thank you. Carrite (talk) 15:53, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

All three parties have been notified, hopefully adequately. Carrite (talk) 16:08, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree that there is nothing in policy that states no HLA employee can have an account; however, the username is a violation and the user shouldn't be unblocked without a username change. Ryan Vesey Review me! 16:11, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Alright everyone, calm down. StringdaBrokeda (talk) 16:13, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Without necessarily agreeing with the wording, I would note OM didn't actually say no HLA employee can have an account. What they said is HLA can't have an account which I think we all accept is a given. They also said no HLA employee can use us to publicise their clients which seems to be supported by the template. None of this actually says either that no HLA employee can have an account or that they can't write about their clients. Nil Einne (talk) 16:19, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

You have a point; however, I don't believe a new editor will understand the intricacies of the comment and our policies. Personally, I would have preferred that the user be notified that they should change their username and then told how they can modify the article so it was acceptable. Let them fix any problems they caused and teach them how to contribute constructively in the future. Ryan Vesey Review me! 16:36, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

If by your own admission the account name is disallowed, then I don't see how the block can be reversed. At most, a note can be made in the block log to clarify the reasons for the block. The template etc may need to be changes, but that's a different matter. Note that OM did use a template, Template:Uw-spamublock so whether or not they blocked for the right reason or the template was applied appropriately, if you have problems with the wording of the template you should take that up where appropriate. BTW I think you mean User:Hla123. Nil Einne (talk) 16:15, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

(ec)Whoops, sorry, I see now from the history that this was initially taken to PROD, apparently declined. My bad. Carrite (talk) 16:16, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

The editor should have been told to create a new account first. Count Iblis (talk) 16:16, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

The editor should not have been told to create a new account, that would endorse circumventing a block. Ryan Vesey Review me! 16:19, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

If the reason for the block was an inappropriate username, then we should suggest to the editor to change the username and then block the account. Count Iblis (talk) 16:49, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't think of this as "making policy". I will concede that I am of the militant tendency rather than the unconditional surrender caucus [the latter, I should make it clear, does not include Carrite] when it comes to agents and PR people shilling for their clients (if it's not already clear, HLA is the acronym for Lutton's agent and HLA123 is them, as they themselves admit), and that my summary was a little bitey. I consider myself duly chastised; but I don't think that JP should be held to blame for this failure on my part. I don't see, though, how the username block should be considered anything but canonical. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:21, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• (ec)Although I agree that Orange Mike could have framed his edit summary to appear a little less abrupt, there is nothing wrong with the substance of the text in his block, or jpgordon's decline of the unblock request. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:22, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

  HLA stands for HLA Management and this is WP:CORPNAME and clear case of username violation hence the user was blocked.Further not sure whether the account is for a individual or for editing on behalf of HLA. Both User:OrangeMike and User:Jpgordon are right here and I do not see any policy formulation here.Note this article Matthew Lutton appears to have been deleted under A7 and the undeletion request was declined just a day before it was recreated by the same editor.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 16:51, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• This article turned up on the new article bot for WikiProject Opera. I don't know what the original version looked like, but the this one, even before I copyedited and referenced it, was pretty decent as far as COI articles go. No blatant puffery, reasonably neutral apart from some cherry-picked quotes, and no copyvio. And at least the chap passes WP:GNG. I see a lot of these from artist management agencies. My impression is that the article's creator has re-registered now with a non-company name, and from their edits seems to have taken some of my suggestions on the talk page to heart [65]. Voceditenore (talk) 17:57, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Artist management agencies are just one more subset of COI editors, with a particularly blatant COI in making their clients look good. I am glad that you have taken this one in hand, Voce! The original version [which I did not delete] was doomed by the shamelessly cherry-picked pull quotes, I think, combined with the obvious promotional intent. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:13, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Voceditenore, based on your comment, can we assume that the person formerly editing as Hla123 is now editing Wikipedia as JeanProbert1981 (talk · contribs)? If so, that seems to address the username problem. Maybe Orange Mike can say whether this is now an acceptable user name, and if the person should be allowed to edit. The first two edits by the new account appear to be adding references at Matthew Lutton and making minor tweaks. No objection to an AfD nomination for Matthew Lutton, but it would probably be kept. There are a lot of blue links in the article text. The first Google hit for Matthew Lutton is a statement by The Australian, "Matthew Lutton may be the country's most passionate and ambitious stage director." EdJohnston (talk) 18:24, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Clearly the current username is unexceptionable. I'd suggest that he/she should disclose their COI on their talk page; and obviously there are more editors than usual watching the Lutton article now. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:59, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Support immediate unblock This block was in direct violation of WP:CORPNAME, which states "Users who adopt such usernames, but who are not editing problematically in related articles, should not be blocked. Instead, they should be gently encouraged to change their username." The Matthew Lutton article at the time of block was a rather nice article for a new editor, clearly still a newbie article, but the editor in question was clearly adding good references to the bottom. This blocking acrtion was completely out of line and yet another in a long string of such blocks by OrangeMike in direct violation of CORPNAME. Silverseren^C 23:34, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
  • accounts that purport to represent an entire group or company are not permitted no matter the name - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:46, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
    • Yes, which is why it is explained to them that only one person is allowed to have an account (and that they can make more if other members want to be involved) and that they need to go change their username. But immediate blocking is not the way to go and is not going to make anyone amenable to anything you ask, which is why CORPNAME says that immediate blocking should only be done if the account's edits are being clearly disruptive. Silverseren^C 04:55, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
• Just a couple of things...If the first version deleted under A7 was the same as the intitial version of the current article, then this strikes me as a misapplication of A7. Young Australian of the Year award (and others), quotes from mainline German newspapers reviewing the opera he directed and co-developed, etc. How can that possibly qualify for A7 as that guideline is currently worded? This strikes me as punishment for COI editing, which is not part of the A7 criteria.

Secondly, is that current "badge of shame" on the talk page really necessary? I prefer starting with posts like this, and would only resort to the banner if the COI editor(s) don't take it on board. I have to work with a lot of articles like this. One agency in Barcelona has created 13 articles for "their" opera singers. In my experience, after some initial tussles, the best I can hope for is that they'll edit according to the guidelines in future. I have yet to find one who has ever contributed anything else to Wikipedia. Their only interest in the project is as a PR tool. Having said that, at least it results (after much red-pencilling from other editors) in one new article on a notable subject that we didn't have before. Opera and classical music is an important area to cover. Alas, normal WP editors are not lining up in droves to contribute there. Voceditenore (talk) 07:04, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Comment – This was exactly why I proposed Proposed blocking about 2 months ago, for the exact same incident earlier. However, that was shot down by the community, and now we have the exact same standoff we had 2 months ago over application of the policy (i.e. Do we block and then request they change username, or do we indefinitely wait until they do and, in the meantime, pretend that there is no username problem?). --MuZemike 18:34, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

  Sorry I missed the discussion two months ago. I thought the username policy was clear. You indef the inappropriate username and unblock if the request includes a desire to register a new account which is not a violation. Nothing in this current manner should change. IMO StringdaBrokeda (talk) 18:44, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Have you even read WP:CORPNAME? I quoted the relevant section above that states that immediate blocks should only be given out if the user is editing disruptively. If they aren't, then they should be directed to WP:CHU and told to change their username, but not blocked. Silverseren^C 19:45, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Hence we sit on that indefinitely and pretend that there is no username problem. --MuZemike 19:56, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Comment – Perhaps it may be a good idea to place a moratorium on WP:UAA until this issue is sorted out, lest we want to circle the wagons indefinitely with no progress made. --MuZemike 20:00, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Received email boasting "We wrote the article on Wikipedia"

I am no editor, I do not even have an account, but I received a mass email from a consulting group saying they wrote Inventory optimization on Wikipedia. The announcement included Wikipedia's "globe" logo, implying that there was an official connection.

Sure enough, the article was not begun until June 4 with the uploading of +10,855 characters. The "editors" are employed by the consultancy who sent the email, and EVERY news reference for the article just happens to mention their name or one of their customers. Frankly I do not know why the article is necessary as it is really Supply chain optimization they are talking about.

Is this kosher? I'll watch this board, I am happy to forward the email I received (via VerticalResponse) to Wikipedia legal, or whatever, if anyone is interested. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.175.28 (talk) 18:35, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

The article was created in user space by Braedon Farr (talk · contribs) and then moved into mainspace. I've notified Braedon Farr about this ANI section. Looie496 (talk) 18:48, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Thanks for reporting it! If they were claiming to be Official Wikipedia Writers or whatever, that would be quite problematic. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that the content is bad. The ever-helpful Maunus (talk · contribs) has put a COI tag on it; I'll have a closer look at some of the content too. Declaring that something was written by corporate interests is a good way to attract lots of skeptical eyes. If it's skewed towards a particular vendor, that should be straightforward to fix. bobrayner (talk) 18:50, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

What is the name of the consulting group in question? Who are the clients you mention? We need details. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:02, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Not too many details though. Company names yes, people names only if strictly necessary. (I want to avoid WP:OUTING concerns). I realize that sounds like I'm saying something bad about Orangemike and/or 72.202.175.28, but all I'm saying is that the IP, being a newer editor, might unknowingly give us too much info in response to Mike's eminently reasonable request. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 19:59, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

The article was titled Manhattan Associates when Braedon Farr created it in his user space; he renamed it to Inventory optimization after moving it into mainspace. He also asked Drmies to look at the article after moving and renaming it, and got semi-positive comments in response. All of this is readily apparent from a glance at his contribs. Looie496 (talk) 21:00, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Orange Mike has now redirected the article to Supply chain optimization. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 21:04, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

It seems slightly problematic that the Supply chain optimization article is unsourced whereas the Inventory optimization article at least had some sources.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:16, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I cannot fathom the reasoning behind getting rid of sourced content and redirecting it to an unsourced page on a related but subtly-different topic. What was so wrong with the content that it had to be replaced with stuff like this? bobrayner (talk) 21:56, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I thought the same thing. Drmies (talk) 22:02, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed on sourced versus unsourced. However, the sources in that article all reference the consultancy/author and/or their customer exclusively, not exactly a NPOV and perhaps stands to help their SEO, who knows? Then they put out a mass email boasting about it. However you slice it, allowing it would set a dangerous precedent. I sent orangemike the details provided I got the addy correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.175.28 (talk) 22:07, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Since the article in question has a direct download on the page to their site I guess it should be no secret. Why does the article start with Colgate-Palmolive, Delphi and Luxottica? Colgate-Palmolive, Delphi and Luxottica are their clients. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.175.28 (talk) 22:45, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't accept all your inferences, but I have to say that that part of the article needs work. While the sleuths get on the COI and the abuse, I'm going to edit this stuff out via the normal process, with no guarantees that I'll tackle all the problems or produce a readable result. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 23:04, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• OK, this is not (unless I'm missing something) what was started as Manhattan Associates--that article still exists. If this article, which I've re-redirected, so to speak, is indeed "the same as" Supply chain optimization, then it will need to be handled differently than with a simple redirect. I don't know anything about COI and marketing and what-not, and have nothing to add on Braedon Farr, who struck me as a friendly enough new editor. Barring any evidence of foul play (e.g., that Farr sent the email?) I don't see the need for ANI here--I do see a need for knowledgeable editors to put the articles side by side and possibly merge them to something sensible and verified. Drmies (talk) 22:12, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
• One more thing: I find no discussion on the talk page to validate the COI tag or the reliable sources tag. For the first, apparently we have an email by an IP editor as cause, and for the second, what's wrong with McKinsey Quarterly and Computerworld? Drmies (talk) 22:16, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

  There is nothing wrong with McKinsey Quarterly or Computerworld but that isn't parallel. Those organizations should not be the exclusive authors of Technology journalism or Business journalism and then publicize it under the wikipedia logo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.175.28 (talk) 00:06, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Inventory optimization is the better article. The two ought to be merged but that's a content discussion for the talk page. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 23:06, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

  Alright everyone, calm down. StringdaBrokeda (talk) 23:57, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Libellous vandalism

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I'm not a fan if either individual, but the following two edits by Milkshake6789 (talk · contribs) are libellous vandalism from a user who has a dubious edit history, as evidenced by their talk page:

• George Osborne article
• Ricky Gervais article

Thanks - SchroCat (^ • @) 18:48, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Just FYI, but in future WP:AIV is the best place to go for this. Basalisk ^{inspect damage}⁄_berate 18:58, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• User is no longer active, I see. Thanks for reporting this--they are now blocked for a whole bunch of things including, really, incompetence. If you're wondering about the indef, take a look at their block log: there is a natural progression here. Drmies (talk) 19:00, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer to AIV—and sorry to have posted in the wrong place, but at least he's got what he deserved after being a pain recently! Cheers - SchroCat (^ • @) 20:06, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

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Tendentious IP

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12.129.87.3 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is out of control, edit warring across multiple articles, accusing others of vandalism, being "a Mormon hack that thinks Mitt Romney will win", "radical republicans", etc. It seems pretty likely that it's a regular editor who's lost their cool, but who knows? They've ignored multiple warnings, and are reinserting personal attacks on editors' talk pages.[66] I left a warning but it seems pointless, they're just here to troll. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:42, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I've blocked them for 48 hours. Elockid ^(Talk) 20:48, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! - Wikidemon (talk) 20:53, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

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Complaint About Editors' Behavior In Victoria Pynchon Deletion Discussion

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I wish to complain about the behavior of editors MelanieN and Dondegroovily in the discussion about deleting the page of Victoria Pynchon. The discussion is now hidden, but it appears here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Victoria_Pynchon.

In brief, the discussion shows Donde resorting to profanity, and MelanieN repeatedly making personal insults and attacks upon Pynchon's detractors.

Donde's remarks also suggest that it no longer matters whether a non-notable person has a Wikipedia article about her, because she was the object of a coordinated attack. In other words, the motives of the persons who raised the issue matter more than the issue itself; namely, whether Pynchon is notable. I find it difficult to believe that this is Wikipedia policy.

My suggestions are as follows:

1. Donde and MelanieN should have their editing and administrative privileges temporarily suspended until they receive training in professional behavior, and they should have no further involvement in the Pynchon matter. Their objectivity is now every bit as compromised as the AutoAdmit group's.

2. Responsible administrators should promptly decide the issue of Pynchon's notability, and they should strictly limit their criteria to that issue. AutoAdmit's puerile behavior should be a non-factor in both the decision and in the speed with which that decision is reached.

My complete comments appear in the Talk section of the Pynchon article.Pernoctus (talk) 21:21, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

What I see is two experienced WP editors trying to explain WP policy on deletion, notability and BLPs to a group of editors hellbent on attacking the subject of the article proposed for deletion. I see nothing wrong in the language they used or the way they approached the discussion. In fact I think they should be commended for coming to the defense of Wikipedia and its standards. QU ^TalkQu 21:24, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I am not interested in debating the matter with QU or anyone. I simply wish to bring the matter to more responsible editors' attention. If using "God damn" in replies, and calling others "clueless" meets QU's standard of civil discourse and professional behavior for Wikipedia editors, then we see the world very differently, and little could be gained from further dialogue.Pernoctus (talk) 21:28, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

What is your definition of a "more responsible editor"? I have no involvement with this incident and I've been editing for six years so I feel qualified to comment. Just because I don't agree with your complaint doesn't make me irresponsible. I'll leave you to the administrators to judge if any action is needed then.QU ^TalkQu 21:33, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I feel I should also point out to the reviewing administrator(s) that writing that two fellow editors are "...disgracefully hypocritical and unprofessional" as you did here should also be taken into account when considering the general standard of civility during this issue. QU ^TalkQu 21:40, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I think MelanieN did a fine job under trying circumstances. Dondegroovily let the trolls get to him/her, which is unfortunate, but deserves, at most, an admonition to keep cool, and step back when provoked. I see nothing deserving sanctions, except for the wilding by some IPs, who aren't worth the trouble to slap.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 22:25, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

@ Pernoctus I see that you are new. Neither MelanieN nor Dondegroovily are admins. The determination of notability is not an administrative function. It is decided by consensus; admins are tasked with reviewing the arguments on both sides, and determining what the consensus concludes (Non-admins can close AfD nominations, although none should be attempting to close this one.)--SPhilbrick(Talk) 22:31, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• I agree we commend MelanieN and Dondegroovily for their calmness and equanimity in dealing with this situation; if they wish to become admins they have gone a long way to showing their fitness for it. . In the circumstances, the language used by them was quite forgivable--and perhaps even appropriate; if I were going to pick a descriptor it might be a stronger one than "clueless." I agree it's not worth blocking the ips, but we should certainly block any account persisting in the support of the activities of the site that has concerned itself in this. DGG ( talk ) 22:51, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• DDG is correct - given the circumstances a bit of finger-waggling for language might well be called for, but nothing more. And perhaps this should be closed, both with no action needed and to avoid any potential WP:BOOMERANGs? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:22, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
• I imagined this would happen were Pernoctus actually to take his complaint to ANI. But, in fact, he is not "new" - the account was registered four years ago, however much he has only a handful of edits in that time, and we ought not do him the disservice of treating him with the kid gloves we would a newbie. (It's particularly peachy that he calls for a block on Donde, who brought the AfD at the IPs' request and voted to Delete.)

  That being said, I could think of a lot harsher terms for the altogether-too-typical hordes of disruptive anon IPs at AfD than "Goddamn," and any editor willing to stand up to such barbarian hordes is fine in my books. Ravenswing 23:48, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

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Controversial move

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Could an admin have a look at the move made here [67] apart from being highly controversial they have messed it up. Mo ainm~Talk 22:07, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Controversial or not that is a horrible mess of double / triple redirects... it should be returned to the starting point by someone with a delete button. QU ^TalkQu 22:11, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

It's not horrible. I just made a simple typo. Flag of the Republic of Irelan should of course be deleted. Please be more careful when consider something 'controversial'.--Wester (talk) 22:15, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

This is a highly controversial move which should never have been done without a) informing WikiProject Ireland or b) starting a discussion on the talk page. Please don't hide behind WP:BRD, a simple perusal of the talk page gives an idea of the controversy involved. Also, the user made a complete mess of the move, can it please be restored to the original version? Snappy (talk) 22:20, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

It's a move clearly against the previous consensus at Talk:Flag of Ireland/Archive 1#2nd Requested move (succeeded). Wester is also removing the {{db-move}} template I added in order to reverse this disruptive move (Wester earlier edited the redirect to prevent the move being reversed without admin tools), so could someone please restore the status quo please? Thanks. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 22:21, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

The new title is more accurate since the article is about the flag of the republic of Ireland, not the island Ireland. Secondly it's you that messed up. The two articles were redirecting to each other. I restored it.

Also, when looking at that discussion page. It's clear there is no consensus to move to Flag of Ireland. Flag of Ireland is POV by Irish nationalists.--Wester (talk) 22:25, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

@ Mo ainm: At which point did you engage Wester (talk · contribs) on their talk page about it?--v/r - TP 22:26, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Engage them about the mess they made that couldn't be rectified without admin intervention?? Mo ainm~Talk 22:30, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Without even checking to see if it is, in fact a mess, you should approach them first. Even if it requires and admin, it isn't an emergency, and you can summon an admin with a help template. This is supposed to be for issues that cannot be resolved between the parties, or emergencies requiring immediate action.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 22:38, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

And how can it be resolved by the parties if it needs admin intervention to fix the mess made? Mo ainm~Talk 22:40, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

There actually wasn't very much "consensus" on the link ONiH posted at all. A narrow majority at best. — JonC^ॐ 22:33, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

The closing admin doesn't agree with your unique interpretation. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 22:37, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

admins are no saints. One can see that there is no consensus at that page.--Wester (talk) 22:42, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Great, so hopefully you'll refrain from moving it again without consensus to do so, since you know about consensus. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 22:46, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I have to admit a haven't seen that discussion. I moved it because Ireland is an ambiguous term and the article is about the flag of the Republic, not the island. But now that I have seen that discussion. I do think the page should not have been moved in the first place.--Wester (talk) 22:48, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

What has happened now? The actions of Anthony Bradbury caused that the page is gone now. Flag of Ireland is a redirect to Flag of the Republic of Ireland and Flag of the Republic of Ireland is a redirect to Flag of Ireland.--Wester (talk) 22:36, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Wester, please don't take it upon yourself to override consensus in a controversial area. Your opinion is valid but is not shared by others, so we have to discuss the issue (in great detail!), before reaching a consensus. If you still feel that this article should be renamed, then open a discussion on the talk page. Snappy (talk) 22:46, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

But where is the consensus? And BTW: I did not realise this was a controversial move.--Wester (talk) 22:48, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

That would be the discussion on the talk page (already linked) whose outcome was a move to the current article title. It's not up to you or any other editor to re-interpret this consensus, years later, no matter how narrow it was alleged to be. Consensus can and does change, so the best way to go about that is to start a discussion. You have been bold, your change has been reverted, now if you still feel strongly start a discussion. Snappy (talk) 22:55, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

We have a guideline called WP:BEBOLD. If Wester was unaware of another consensus, then he appropriately followed WP:BEBOLD but made a mistake. This should've been discussed with him before dragging him here. An admin could've been contacted on their talk page to fix any problems or a {{db-move}} could've been used. There are so many other solutions before dragging someone to WP:ANI. User:Mo ainm, in the future, use the others avenues.--v/r - TP 23:16, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Restore page history please

Could someone restore the page history (and presumably content) of Flag of Ireland please, it seems to have gone AWOL during the moves and deletions and restorations. I did drop a note on the admin's talk page, but no response as yet. Thanks. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 22:45, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Done. Number 57 22:50, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

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Vandalism to List of programs broadcast by ABS-CBN Corporation page

This user User:WayKurat have continously deleted and vandalised this ABS-CBN page most especially the upcoming Foreign dramas section. I have given several indications that the dramas that have been listed have been confirmed by the management, and even given more links to further confirm that ABS-CBN have indeed bought the rights, but this user keeps insisting that it is not reliable, EVEN IF THE REFERENCE GIVEN HAVE BEEN POSTED OR MODERATED BY THE ABS-CBN NETWORK THEMSELVES. Can I just please request at least a 4 week ban for this user to edit this particular page? Thank you. User:Ifightback —Preceding undated comment added 00:26, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Sure you can request that. In the meantime I have notified the editor for you, which you are required to do. You are also required to post diffs pointing to the actual edits, and you are required to use independent, reliable sources--management's Facebook page does not usually count as such. But that's all by-the-by. Now, I presume you are talking about List of programs broadcast by ABS-CBN Corporation, where perhaps you edited under one or two IPs? Drmies (talk) 01:42, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
• If this is your work, then I agree with WayKurat. Either way, this isn't a matter for ANI since there is a content issue here, not actionable by an administrator. The only thing that may be called for here is a suggestion to read WP:BOOMERANG. Drmies (talk) 01:44, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

To answer User:Ifightback's complaint, let me point out that I have deleted the upcoming shows since they only rely on Facebook photos, Multiply and Youtube accounts of ABS-CBN and a lot of third party blogs. Also, most of the "sourced" upcoming shows rely on this YouTube video that was published on January but so far, ABS-CBN have not provided a launch date for any of the shows on that video or announce it on one of their more recent commercials. The said sources only says that ABS-CBN bought the rights of these shows but have not yet decided when to air it. I suggest that the shows should be added to the upcoming section if the schedule has been finalized or a press release from ABS-CBN have been published. -WayKurat (talk) 03:38, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Truth be told, Ifightback seems to have a pattern of filing ANIs without troubling himself to discuss the situation on the appropriate talk pages or anywhere else, or to notify the editors in question of the filing, or to pretty much do anything along the lines of proper procedure. [68][69][70]. As such, I believe a topic ban on posting on ANI would be appropriate until and unless he can convince an admin that he can work in a collaborative environment and follow the rules. Ravenswing 03:47, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Thanks for those diffs, Ravenswing. After the first one (critique of which was countered with an injunction not to bite), they should know better. I would not be opposed to a topic ban, but I'd be happier if "Ifightback" found a less combative style of editing. Drmies (talk) 18:21, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

The Aquabats

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I'm asking for some help with The Aquabats. Recently an editor—first editing from IPs and now from the account Jars1 (talk · contribs)—has been trying to force the inclusion of several unverifiable past members, listing their tenures in the band as "1994–unknown". The only source given to support these changes was this, which (A) is thoroughly unreliable and (B) appears to just be a copy of an old version of the Wikipedia article. I reverted based on the unreliability of the source and have been met with flat-out refusal to engage in discussion and threats that this editor's "200 helpful techno friends outside" will help them continually edit-war to retain their preferred version. Here are some of the wonderful edit summaries:

• Heh, not happening. Don't give me any take it to the talk page and don't get into a war with me on this one. I have techno friends outside.
• Check the source. Do not get into a pissing match with me. you'll never win. over 200 helpful friends outside
• 200, buddy, 200!
• Oh, I cited a source. Props on flagging my articles. This account may be done, but you underestimated me. I will win. Starting tomorrow, you will see the big guns.)

If it had remained as IPs I would have asked for semi-protection, but since the edits are now coming from the Jars1 account, which has edits going back to 2009, semi probably won't stop it. I'm going out of town for the weekend and will be off-wiki, so I'm asking for some help keeping an eye on the article and taking whatever measures are necessary to curb this issue. Given the threats, I think blocking the account and semi-ing the article may be in order. --IllaZilla (talk) 04:34, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

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Disruption at consciousness

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Editor 217.12.195.77 (talk · contribs) has thrice added a bunch of gibberish to the article, without explanation or response to warnings. The IP geolocates to Ukraine, and the material has the appearance of something you might get by applying Google Translate to something written in Russian, so I won't call it vandalism, but it is obviously hopeless, as one glance at a diff will show. I am bringing the matter here because I think that is probably the most direct path to a solution. I will notify the IP of this section. Looie496 (talk) 06:23, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I've left a final warning. If this continues, report to WP:AIV for blocking. No further admin action needed at this point.  Sandstein  06:39, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh, it did continue a minute after my warning, so I've blocked the IP for 72 h.  Sandstein  06:41, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

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Poston Butte High School

Having a bit of a dispute with User:Azhix (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) who has only edited this page. He added this content to the article, which includes several images since deleted (some directly from the school district). Other text appears rather advertisement-esque in tone. I've already reverted back to my revision that makes it less crufty. What do I do? Raymie (t • c) 08:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Just revert it. The images were copyright violations and the text was clearly just copied straight from the school's prospectus (and hence also a copyvio). I'll leave them a warning note. Black Kite (talk) 09:18, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

User:In ictu oculi

In ictu oculi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Tenacious

For several months User talk:In ictu oculi ("Iio") has been on a crusade waging a campaign to have the wording of several naming conventions changed to suit his/her personal preference that Continental European names should have the "correct name" (by which s/he presumably means the native name rather than the name used in reliable English language sources -- but Iio can explain better than I what Iio means by the correct name). Until recently this has taken several forms:

1. Long debates with anyone who opposes him/her on the talk pages of articles.
2. Long debates on the talk pages of the relevant artile title policy page and its guidelines (known as naming conventions), to have them changed to wording that suits Iio's POV.
3. When Iio brings up a peripheral guidelines which inadvertently supports his/her POV, Iio defends tenaciously that wording and resists any attempt to harmonise the wording of that guideline with the wording on the main policy pages. For example see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Proper names
4. Moving dozens of pages which can carry accent marks to another title without the use of a WP:RM even though Iio well knows that the moving of article titles to or from a version of a title that may have accent marks is potentially controversial (See Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves). Iio justification for the moves (as given in the history of the article is frequently given as MOS based yet it has been explained to Iio many times that article titles are decided upon by using article title policy and its naming conventions. With names that can have accent marks this is usually decided using the guidance in the section WP:UE and the guideline Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English).

Disruptive

At 14:12 on 27 June 2012‎ Iio created a redirect called WP:Naming conventions (French). In doing this Iio has clearly breached the article title policy. (See the section called Proposed naming conventions and guidelines) S/he has also gone against the spirit of WP:PROPOSAL.

Once created Iio used this "naming convention" to explain the move of Pierre Brulart, marquis de Sillery to Pierre Brûlart, marquis de Sillery at 03:38, 28 June 2012.

Tenacious to disruptive

In the last month Iio has made somewhere in the region of about 100 page moves (excluding talk pages), most of them biography articles about non native speakers of English.

With the creation of this naming convention redirect (WP:Naming conventions (French)) Iio has gone beyond tenacious (as described in the bullet points above) and has become disruptive, because creation of naming conventions without a consensus to do so leads to anarchy and is also in direct contravention of the Arbcom Discretionary sanctions for the MOS and the AT policy (see relevant Arcom remedies).

Remedies

I propose that the redirect is either deleted, or redirected to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), until such time as the need for a WP:Naming conventions (French) is established using the proscribed process.

I further propose that User talk:In ictu oculi be banned from moving or proposing moves of pages which are covered by the WP:UE section of the WP:AT policy for a period of six months, and from editing or participating in debates on the talk pages of polices and guidelines that affect the guidance of article names for a similar length of time. Such a ban will hopefully give Iio time to consider his/her behaviour and come back the the issue in a less combative frame of mind. -- PBS (talk) 11:25, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

Aggh, please use subjunctive on the first remedy! I'd have to support this proposal; you've made a solid case for the idea that Iio is being disruptive here, and your solution sounds like it will keep the peace (if followed or if enforced) and easily be helpful. Nyttend (talk) 11:32, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• I'm not going to comment on the move-ban, but I think a discussion-ban would be unhelpful as I think IIO's comments at RMs are generally above-average in terms of sticking to policy/guideline and sources (this is another way of saying "A bigger problem is with certain other editors whose responses to RMs are impossible to reconcile with available evidence), and we do need to work towards a civilised solution to the diacritic wars, hopefully not a truce where individual wikiprojects set their own spelling rules. If the community decides that sanctions are appropriate, I would prefer something a little more specific. bobrayner (talk) 11:45, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
  • I'd also point out that where we have two different rules which can be interpreted in contradictory ways (let's say rules A and B), there are two different ways to "harmonise" the rules; A could be updated to look more like B, or vice versa. It's unhelpful to advocate making A look more like B for the sake of harmonisation, whilst also characterising efforts to make B look more like A as disruptive. The existence of rules which can be interpreted in different ways is the main ammunition in the diacritics wars. bobrayner (talk) 11:51, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
    • WP:AT is policy the guidelines should not be interpreted in such a way that they can be used to contradict policy. If they appear to do so then they should be harmonised with that policy. But let us stick to the creation of WP:Naming conventions (French) without any discussion (contrary to policy). The redirect could have been made to the page Wikipedia:Manual of Style/France & French-related or it could have been made to the section General rules which starts "The most general rule of the Wikipedia is that editors should use the most common form of the name or expression used in English (WP:ENGLISH)." (bold emphasis as it is in the guideline). Instead Iio chose to redirect it to Accents & ligatures bypassing the section General rules. I put it to you that given his/her known preference for native spellings, that this was an act of bad faith. -- PBS (talk) 12:16, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
      • Since both WP:FRENCHNAMES and WP:ENGLISH are both existing guidelines (not policy), and both are relevant to naming of French articles, I don't see why IIO's preferred target for the redirect is bad faith and disruptive whilst your preferred target is just fine. Having different guidelines which can be interpreted in contradictory ways is part of the problem, not part of the solution. The community should discuss how to improve the rules - and policy itself is a product of community discussion, it wasn't handed down on stone tablets. IIO may well have done other bad stuff, but seeking to sanction IIO for choosing one guideline over the other is not a good solution, I feel. Next week somebody else will prefer one rule which contradicts your preferred rule, and the week after that... bobrayner (talk) 12:49, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
        • WP:FRENCHNAMES was created by Iio on 14:11, 27 June 2012‎! I did not raise it here because it did not breach a policy to create it. But as you say "Having different guidelines which can be interpreted in contradictory ways is part of the problem, not part of the solution." and you now have two examples of redirects created by Iio in the last few days that help to expand this problem. BTW You write "whilst your preferred target is just fine" I did not suggest that it was fine, I said that I think the redirect should be deleted, or failing that redirected to "WP:Naming conventions (Use English)". I used the alternatives as an example of how Iio is trying to create guidance to support his/her POV. -- PBS (talk) 13:09, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
• I see no problem with creating a redirect from the "WP:Naming conventions..." namespace to a pertinent page in the "WP:Manual of style" namespace, when it is clearly the case that the relevant problems pertaining to article naming questions in that domain are treated in that MOS page – including references to possible disputes and uncertainties. I also second Bobrayner's impression that In ictu's contributions to move debates, where I have come across him, have been generally reasonable and policy-aware. This thread strikes me as an attempt at winning a legitimate content dispute through admin-board complaints. I see little merit in PBS's complaint and would even tend to describe it as frivolous. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:57, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Creating redirects in the name of "Naming Convention (xxx)" with no discussion is a breach of policy. AT and the MOS address different issues, and mixing them up is one of the problems that brings confusion to WP:RM debates. See my comment above about creating such a redirect being both a breach of policy and the Arbcom ruling. -- PBS (talk) 13:46, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)*What I've seen of Iio's editing elsewhere has been good and as others have said, policy aware. Nyttend, I'm disappointed that you would support a ban without hearing Iio's side of the dispute. And ban someone from discussions because they are tenacious? No. Dougweller (talk) 13:56, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Hello everyone.

1/ Yes I have made a shortcut to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/France & French-related which already has two shortcuts WP:FRMOS and WP:MOS-FR called WP:Naming conventions (French). I created the shortcut as less cumbersome than Wikipedia:Manual of Style/France & French-related and more transparent than WP:FRMOS and WP:MOS-FR. But I have also used those in edit summaries. WP:FRENCHNAMES is simply a shortcut box within Wikipedia:Manual of Style/France & French-related, I don't think I've even used it. If anyone objects to the shortcut - as it seems PBS does - then delete it.

2/ I have concerns with PBS' removal of the status quo diacritics section of MOSPN, as I have said before, which is why I restored it. I also note PBS edits to MOSPN WP:AT and other policy pages reflecting the views expressed at the (failed) Lech Wałęsa RM and similar going back to 2006.

3/ I stand by edits I have made to bios as being based on sources. As PBS has himself recognised at Talk:Ondřej Látal. Anyone can check them. If they lack sourcing, then revert them.

4/ Even crossed out I object to the term on a crusade for simply editing in the way most Editors interpret existing guidelines. I did not put the 100,000s of en.wikipedia bio articles at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/France & French-related etc., that is the built up consensus of 1000s of editors since 2006. I have invited PBS at least a dozen times to cite 1x an accented Latin-alphabet modern European bio (non-monarch non-stagename non-ß) which he agrees with and PBS has to date not cited 1x. If PBS is not satisfied with where French, German, Czech articles are on en.wikipedia.org that is not my problem - I did not put them there. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:29, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

That logic would not apply to the Vietnamese titles that are being moved.[71][72] WP:Naming conventions (Vietnamese) certainly doesn't support what Iio is doing. Currently, Vietnamese titles are predominantly at ASCII forms. Here is the most recent RM on this issue. Kauffner (talk) 14:38, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Kauffner

Anyone who clicks through will see that the sources support the reverts on those 2 articles. Your 2 moves were also reverted as inconsistent with category:Vietnamese cuisine, which like category:Vietnamese music, category:Vietnamese culture, Category:Populated places in Bac Kan Province etc. etc. etc., are still at full Vietnamese names.

Note that I haven't reverted e.g. the moves you made contrary to the Talk:Cần Thơ/Archive 1 RM. I actually don't care if you continue to move all Vietnam towns and bios even immediately following a failed RM.

In ictu oculi (talk) 15:44, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Philip Baird Shearer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

For the record.

• removal of entire content of diacritics section from MOSPN

If anyone thinks I was wrong to restore this removal then they should re-remove it.. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:09, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Why is this at Ani? - there has been no edits to the guideline since two weeks and there is plenty of talkpage discussion since then, but nothing for four days there either - there is nothing that needs admin action here, can you explain what you want an Administer to do? - if you just want additional opinions - open a WP:RFC. Youreallycan 15:10, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

You also do not appear to have notified PBS about this report - this is mandatory - please either do that now or provide a diff to where you notified him - thanks - Youreallycan 15:16, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

This is meant to be a section of the above. I notified PBS here In ictu oculi (talk) 15:32, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Ah thanks for the diff and the explanation - Youreallycan 15:41, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

So few edits, so many problems

Resolved

 – User indefinitely blocked by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise

F16TopGun (talk · contribs · count · api · block log)

Gene McVay (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This editor, who has had only 80 edits in 5 years, is nothing but trouble. On the McVay article, he has repeatedly removed AfD templates and edit-warred. He has had multiple warnings, yet persists. His latest nonsense are personal attacks in all caps and accusations of sock puppetry against JFHJr and me. Diffs are not needed - just look at his Talk page for strewn comments like "JFHJr AKA Bbb23 ARE CANCERS IN WIKIPEDIA AND MUST BE BLOCKED. PLEASE SEARCH @Wikipedia on TWITTER FOR MORE INFORMATION ON JFHJr aka Bbb23." As I write this, he has again removed the AfD template from the McVay article.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:27, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Report him to the vandal board -  Done - they would deal with him - he needs blocking - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gene_McVay&action=history - Youreallycan 15:46, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

He could be reported to WP:AIV or WP:3RRN, but because of the cross-disruption and personal attacks, I felt ANI was more appropriate.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:55, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes - The vandal board was recommended to me for such situations - quick and quiet - there are a fair few experienced editors usually working that board - and the required action usually happens fast , with less need to type, just add the main disrupted article and wallop the ban hammer is applied - lol - regards - Youreallycan 16:01, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, it certainly worked, YRC, but I was concerned about the length of the block if I reported only to AIV. In this instance, Future was quick and decisive, but it may not always work out that way. Also, although maybe a nit, for the sake of a complete record, I would add to the reason for the block (currently "disruptive editing") "personal harassment" or "personal attacks".--Bbb23 (talk) 16:10, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes its true , via AIV sometimes they don't get hit hard enough - its good to add a clear comment in the additional comment box, such as (user is a long term non constructive revert/vandal) - that way the admin has a bit more reason to extend - I am sure if you want the block summary adjusted User:Future Perfect at Sunrise will consider it. The users indef'ed now anyway, if he show up with any similar edits we can request blocking them as a socks.Youreallycan 16:30, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Helpful points, YRC, thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:33, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Avengers Academy

Avengers Academy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

TriiipleThreat (talk · contribs · count · api · block log)

This is regarding the Wikipedia page Avengers_Academy. The user "TriiipleThreat" is continually erasing valid information and replacing it with inaccurate information. He has attempted to bully me into not editing the page by accusing me of "edit warring" because I repeatedly entered my accurate, sourced information in place of his misinformation. I have now been banned from editing that page, preventing me from correcting recent errors he has insisted on including, even after I told him he was wrong. I believe he is abusing his authority and want to make a formal complaint against him as well as ask that I be allowed to resume editing the page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.252.136 (talk • contribs)

Several things. This is mainly a content dispute and does not belong at ANI. The Avengers article was semi-protected because of your protracted insistence on changing the article without justification. You have made some contributions at the Talk page, and you should continue doing so. Unless you have a consensus for your changes, which appears dubious, you will not be permitted to make them, whether because of semi-protection, or for other reasons. Last, when you post here, you should follow the instructions and inform any editor who is the subject of your complaint that this discussion exists (I have done so for you). A threat on the Talk page is insufficient. On a less harsh note, you are a new editor, and it's hard sometimes to be thwarted in changes you reasonably believe are accurate by more experienced editors. But don't think of it as a battle. Just try to present your case as clearly as possible. It's also helpful if you can cite to reliable sources supporting your changes or challenge sources that are being used as unreliable, rather than just rely on what you think (even if it's true). Wikipedia is all about verifiabilility.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

As already noted to you on your talk page, please inform TriiipleThreat on their talk page, not in the discussion thread at Talk:Avengers Academy about your posting this.

Beyond that, there is little for this noticeboard to deal with in this case since it is primarily a content dispute at this point. However...

Please actually read the following: WP:DISRUPT, WP:EDIT WAR, WP:3RR, WP:EDIT SUMMARY, WP:BRD, and WP:CIVILITY.

Normal procedure is for editors to communicate why they are making edits. This involves using edit summaries. And when a bold edit is undone it involves actually using the article talk page to has out what changes should be made before restoring the bold edit. Not doing that leads to edit warring.

The article was locked to foster and actual discussion on the talk page. Please try to do that keeping in mind WP:CIVILITY

- J Greb (talk) 16:01, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

The page was not protected because of the content but because of your conduct. I stayed with within the three revert limit in 24-hours;

1. Revision as of 06:24, June 25, 2012
2. Revision as of 14:30, June 27, 2012
3. Revision as of 14:36, June 27, 2012
4. Revision as of 15:02, June 27, 2012

You went well beyond 3RR by not just reverting me but with other editors;

1. Revision as of 14:29, June 27, 2012
2. Revision as of 14:34, June 27, 2012
3. Revision as of 14:37, June 27, 2012
4. Revision as of 14:48, June 27, 2012
5. Revision as of 15:06, June 27, 2012
6. Revision as of 15:07, June 27, 2012
7. Revision as of 10:08, June 28, 2012

I tried to communicate with you at 14:45, June 27, 2012 and warned you about your behavior at 15:01, June 27, 2012, explaining how the WP:BRD process is supposed to work. You did not attempt discussion until 10:23, June 28, 2012, after your seventh revert in which you stated "i will keep replacing it if you keep deleting it".

I gave specific reasoning for my edits on the article's talk page and suggested trying to work to consensus or compromise. I even restored a part of your edits after getting a second opinion. I have shown willingness to work with you, which was not reciprocated. Thank you for finally giving a source to verify your edits, but this could all have been avoided if you had responded to my first call for discussion.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 19:25, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Bridge Boy

Requesting a temporary block of Bridge Boy (talk · contribs) for violations of WP:OWN, WP:AGF, and WP:CIVIL. After a copy-paste move [73][74] was repeatedly reverted [75][76][77] by SamBlob (talk · contribs), Dennis Bratland (talk · contribs) and NuclearWarfare (talk · contribs), he began a series of tendentious and pointy edits [78] and attacks on other users.

Bridge Boy has absolutely refused to respect the requests of several other editors not to do copy-paste moves, or to refrain from pointy and POV-pushing edits until consensus is reached. Page protection was required to stop his edit warring. Again and again, any editor who disagrees with him is attacked for lack of subject knowledge. He does not respect the right of other editors to edit articles or even to participate in talk page discussions. Warnings to cease making personal attacks have been ignored, and he has not even acknowledged that such attacks ever occurred or that his personal attacks are unacceptable.

• "Oh fuck off you twat."
• [79] Ownership behavior in reply to a simple point about how to move articles and establish consensus.
• Refusal to ever use edit summaries. Supposedly because he's "new". Note this editor has created a couple dozen new articles and has close to 1,500 edits. Note that much of the conflict this editor draws on himself could be reduced if he would just use edit summaries to explain his intentions.
• "I realise I snubbed enough noses for people to just vote against whatever is being propose rather than depend on what the sources say"… "you are acting out of person prejudices rather than common sense or knowledge of the subject." Not assuming good faith.

• [80] "But I am looking forward to seeing how the other motorcyclists enthusiasts argue otherwise. It'll be good for a laugh." Only motorcycle enthusiasts are allowed to participate, and if they dare disagree with him, it's because of an imagined grudge against him. "a little gang of 2 or 3 people who think they own motorcycle related topics".

• [81] While attacking other editors for lack of subject knowledge and sources, he disingenuously twists the meaning of sources. Here is cites Japanese Grand Prix Racing Motorcycles by Mick Walker, Redline Books, 2002 for calling two-strokes "parallel twins", yet elsewhere has repeatedly said that the term "inline twin" is not used. In fact, Mick Walker uses "inline twin" again and again, in the cited book, and in others (Mick Walker's European Racing Motorcycles ). "Neither you, nor anyone else, are offering any alternative reliable sources at all. "
• No acknowledgment at all of the large number of sources that contradict his arguments.[82][83]. He bluffs by falsely calling the cited sources in books by recognized authorities, and mainstream newspapers and magazines, "merely blogs or PR releases (primary sources)". And forget about an apology for all the personal attacks against those who disagreed with him.

• [84] "I have had too much of time wasted by the stupidity and ignorance of having to question a choice as poor as "Straight-two engine", and all the bitch slapping and conniving that has ensued since. Something these people don't seem to realise detracts from the job at hand."… "I have no idea why Dennis has fixated on me and was working up such a case … Perhaps it is just an unconscious sibling rivalry? " Again, ownership and not assuming good faith. Any slight disagreement draws personal attacks. Note that I *support* an important part of Bridge Boy's argument, but I get attacked anyway.

• Another editor intervenes, and predictably, gets accused of being in on the grand conspiracy against him.

An temporary block is necessary in order to make clear that this behavior is unacceptable. There are bound to be future talk page discussions with this editor and it's getting tiresome to see the same off-topic, paranoid personal attacks every time. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:04, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

As someone who has tried to resist this editor's article ownership by reverting his tendentious changes and ultimately requesting its protection at WP:RPP, and who has subsequently had a short discussion with admin Elockid (who a couple of days ago, prior to sysop edit protecting the article was of a mind to block Bridge Boy), I support Dennis Bratland's assertion that this editor simply doesn't play well with others. He ignores the concept of no personal attacks. does not appear to understand consensus, is blatantly dismissive of other people's opinions and would benefit from a period of timeout to reflect on his unacceptable behaviour. --Biker Biker (talk) 16:18, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I can understand the position here (I've been involved in the talk:), but isn't this awfully close to the "cool-down block", and we know how well those work. Can someone with an involved mop please point out the copy-paste move problem, and that nothing is going to happen either way until the dust settles at talk:. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:29, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what an "involved mop" is. I've been showing him where the guideline is that points out the problem from the start and my effort has been ignored. Instead, he undid everything I did to try and correct the situation (which I now realize I wouldn't have been able to) and blames the whole situation on me.

I don't think he realizes what he's done wrong, which is frightening when one considers how many times he's been told: just about every page edit of this merged page history from this one to this one is either one of us putting the article back to how it was and showing him the link in the edit summary or him ignoring us and putting it back. An administrator put the article back to how it was before the cut-and-paste move, which is what he is supposed to do when there's a move discussion going on, and he questions the administrator's competence to discuss the matter, even though the administrator is *not* discussing the matter but enforcing Wikipedia policy. I try to explain the situation to him and his only response is to blame me for the consequences of his earlier refusal to listen, as mentioned before.

His entire attitude thus far has been combative, which I cannot see as working well in a collaborative effort.

Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 18:05, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)No one here is going to issue Bridge Boy a "time out" or a "cool-down" block. That's outside the scope of the blocking policy; correct me if I'm wrong. Might I suggest that you try some of the steps listed at WP:Dispute resolution before posting here? This noticeboard is not intended to be used as the first place to go for dispute resolution. I am notifying Nuclear Warfare that his name has been mentioned in this thread. -- Dianna (talk) 18:10, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• But someone might block him for personal attacks and disruptive behavior if he doesn't work on his vocabulary and methods. If his behavior continues to disrupt the normal editing of other users, then a block to prevent further disruption is certainly an acceptable way to deal with the problem. His few edits since this ANI started [85] aren't inspiring me as well. I'm all for explaining to an editor what they are doing wrong, but they have to actually listen, and he doesn't seem to WP:HEAR too well. It would have been nice if he actually came here to explain his position. Dispute resolution isn't going to fix him telling others to "Oh fuck off you twat." either. WP:DRN only works when all parties are acting in good faith. After all, it isn't enough to be right, you also have to get along. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 18:38, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

...And there is no dispute that needs to move to another forum to resolve. If Biker Biker and SamBlob and the others change their opinions, then the page Straight-two engine will be moved. If they continue disagree (which is a perfectly defensible and valid position given the inconsistency of the sources), then there is no consensus and the page won't be moved. No further dispute resolution is necessary on that score.

The problem is that every form of persuasion and pressure to improve Bridge Boy's behavior has failed. The only thing left is a block. If a temporary block is ineffective, make it a permanent, and let him request an unblock if he changes his tune. The Check's in the Mail Barnstar was witty and friendly, and beyond the call of duty given what a dick he was being to me and Brianhe (talk · contribs), but I wanted to try being nice to this guy. Didn't work. WP:BLOCK#DETERRENT says blocks should "encourage a more productive, congenial editing style within community norms". It's worth showing that an uninvolved admin judges his behavior unacceptable; it isn't just a cabal of editors who harbor an imaginary grudge. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:23, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

He has been notified of this discussion, and the opinions are pretty clear. I'm not going to block him now, but if he continues his reckless disregard for process and civility and starts back, then I (or any other uninvolved admin) don't have a choice but to use a short term block to prevent the disruption. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 20:43, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Personal attack by User:CoolKoon (again)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

CoolKoon (talk · contribs · count · api · block log)

Hello, there is a serious problem here with CoolKoon (again), see first this personal attacks from CoolKoon [86] vs. Panonian

I'm sorry to say this to you Panonian, but obviously you're not only clueless, but paranoid as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive757#User:CoolKoon

new personal attack from coolkoon vs. Idrian You here [87]

added some sources for nationalist trollls who assert that a church consecrated to Saint Elizabeth of Hungary can't be an example of Hungarian architecture

The words "paranoid" and "nationalist trollls" are textbook examples of extreme incivility and personal attack, and generates doubt whether this user really has any constructive motive. Sorry, but I cannot see that as a good faith edit. 88.101.59.19 (talk) 16:40, 30 June 2012 (UTC) ---

They are obviously attacks, at least the ones you presented. I also notice that most of these arguments occur in article relating to Hungary. If the community does decide to take action, I would suggest a topic ban on Hungary articles. Robby The Penguin (talk) (contribs) 20:32, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Not so fast. The first was already dealt with in the previous ANI discussion, I believe. The second does not appear to me to be directed at anyone in specific (a reference was added, but it didn't replace a cn tag place by a "nationalist troll", as far as I can see). Now, "nationalist troll" is of course unacceptable language, and CoolKoon has a habit of discussing things in an all-too heated and personal matter. I wouldn't block for it, personally, but it's certainly near the borderline. Or, to put it in plain English, CoolKoon, what is wrong with you that you have to resort to such language? Clean it up or you will be blocked, if you're not blocked already as a result of this linguistic buffoonnery. BTW, speaking of bad faith--funny how those charges are typically brought by IPs who don't even have the courtesy of notifying the other editor. Drmies (talk) 20:38, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't understand why we're revisiting this issue. I don't see any personal attacks (just heated discussion). I don't understand who the OP is (only edit under that IP address is this topic). CoolKoon should have been notified and wasn't (I've done so).--Bbb23 (talk) 20:40, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Okay, maybe "nationalist troll" crosses the line, but, in context, I still maintain it's just heat. CoolKoon's intemperance could be improved, but doesn't just name-call, he also provides long (too long) susbtantive reasons for his opinions. I wouldn't recommend a block for this.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:43, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Thanks for the notification, Bbb, and the edit conflict (you troll!). But in my book, "nationalistic troll" isn't an acceptable part of a discussion--"troll" never is. Unless, of course, they're referring to me, haha. Hey, I have an idea. You place a warning of sorts on their talk page, maybe one with words and stuff, and I close this unless some fireworks happen soon. Unless, of course, the IP discloses what their user name is and BOOMERANGs start flying. Drmies (talk)

A lengthy block seems appropriate if he makes a habit of this and has been warned before. User:Fred Bauder Talk 20:48, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Fred--you prompted me to look more carefully, and I noticed he did explain the term on his talk page--it comes with history, right above Bbb's ANI notification. I don't know if this changes matters or not, but they were certainly warned for it. His block log is clean. Drmies (talk) 20:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I read that, too, and he clarified that hadn't used the word "troll" to apply to that particular editor but didn't withdraw it as applied to an IP (and he explained why). I suppose you're technically right about the word "troll", but I find other slurs far more offensive than troll. Usually, when a non-troll is called a troll, it's kind of silly and obviously wrong (I've been called a troll and it doesn't bother me because I may be many things but troll isn't one of them), so it's not the same as being called a racist or even being called brainless. Anyway, he got the warning - whether he needs a more emphatic warning, I dunno, I'll leave that to others - but a block is overkill.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:13, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

What about the drive-by IP that didn't have the courage to post under his user ID? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:01, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

There are lots of possibilities, including a banned user known to impersonate CoolKoon (see his talk page--and I'm assuming "he" since I have a friend called Koen, haha). I don't want to speculate. I still feel that a warning (another warning) should be enough. There's a certain amount of stress in that field (ahem) which explains but does not justify. Drmies (talk) 21:06, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Your typical user would not use an IP to report himself in hopes of getting himself blocked. Unless he's a true eccentric. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:10, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood what Drmies said. He said that the IP was not a sock of CoolKoon but a banned user who impersonates CoolKoon. At least that's what I think he meant.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:15, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

No question he's likely a sock. I couldn't figure out what imitating CK had to do with anything. But if appropriate action has been taken, maybe boxing this one up would be in order ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:26, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Now that I look at it, that message from the IP does look rather hastily written. I'm surprised that I was stupid enough to fall for his phony report. Would someone please WP: Trout me? Robby The Penguin (talk) (contribs) 21:34, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, CoolKoon did use that language, no doubt. Fred, you're the odd one out, it seems, if you'll pardon my French. Any thoughts? I'm not going to close this until I hear from you, and depending on your comments this may not be closed at all just yet. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 21:39, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Why would anyone want to trout a 15-year-old editor who is mature enough to acknowledge a "mistake". I know adults who would sooner die than admit they were mistaken. What I would recommend, though, considering how long you've been at Wikipedia, is stop hanging around ANI and go edit some articles. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 21:43, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Thank you, those compliments mean a lot to me! I am trying to edit more articles, I see mistakes all the time and I should correct them more often! Robby The Penguin (talk) (contribs) 21:58, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, rereading his post, he just seems extremely put upon. Not cool, but within bounds. User:Fred Bauder Talk 21:55, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.