Talk:Zoë Quinn

Holowka allegations

@HC7: Over at WP:BLPN, there's an ongoing discussion regarding whether or not the allegations are even warranted for Holowka's page. It seems like this is really stretching for notability. Also: I have no idea what his death has to do with Quinn, but the placement in the article seems to imply some kind of connection between the accusation and the death, which is utterly unsupported by reliable sources. Nblund ^talk 21:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I say to wait until the Holowka issue is resolved at WP:BLPN before we even start talking about this.--Jorm (talk) 23:06, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I've just reverted an addition of this topic, on the basis that: a) the inclusion in the lead section was UNDUE; b) particularly as it focused on recent events (WP:RECENTISM), and; c) it will need a better source than that which was provided, an op-ed in RT. - Ryk72 ^talk 09:52, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Agree. I still haven't seen high quality sources saying the death was a suicide, and the most recent coverage from the BBC doesn't mention Quinn. I posted this elsewhere, but media guidelines for covering suicide recommend against this kind of oversimplification of the reasons for a persons death. If sources are saying "Quinn made him kill himself" they're probably not reliable. Nblund ^talk 13:49, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Given the recent tragic event involving Alec on August 31, 2019, will we be permitted to cover events related to that event--as reported by the news media in relation to Zoe--on Zoe's page, as we would if this page belonged to someone other than Zoe?

Thank you. -Phone Charger (talk) 23:36, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, of course, if the coverage is sourced reliably and it falls into due weight. If she's barely mentioned, then probably not. At most, this might support a sentence somewhere, but nothing more than that as his death is not, you know, about Zoe.--Jorm (talk) 23:38, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Certainly no conspiracy theories.--Jorm (talk) 23:38, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Obviously we can add information that information that is in accordance of Wikipedia's core policies. But I get the sense from your other edits here that you might not have a clear grasp of those policies. If your question is "has the status quo on Wikipedia shifted in such a way that might allow me to add some reddit nonsense to the entry?" the answer is: "absolutely not, you are wasting your time here and you should find something else to edit." Nblund ^talk 00:47, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

• Archived: Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive290#Alec Holowka czar 23:41, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

So, if anyone wants to put in the work to add this, here's the source links from Alec's article:

https://gamasutra.com/view/news/349504/New_allegations_of_sexual_assault_surface_against_established_game_devs.php https://www.polygon.com/2019/8/29/20835673/night-in-the-woods-alec-holowka-abuse-zoe-quinn https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/349594/Night_in_the_Woods_devs_cut_ties_with_Alec_Holowka_after_abuse_allegations.php https://kotaku.com/night-in-the-woods-designer-alec-holowka-dies-1837783073 https://www.wired.com/story/videogames-industry-metoo-moment-male-fragility/ https://www.pcgamer.com/night-in-the-woods-developer-alec-holowka-has-died/ https://nordic.ign.com/night-in-the-woods/28817/news/night-in-the-woods-developer-accused-of-sexual-assault-dies

This article has the appearance of being a bit of a PoV battleground though. I'll beg off editing main here, please. Bahb the Illuminated (talk) 06:16, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Ngl, i have been watching this article for around a year now, and it definetly seems more than necessary to put in Alec allegations or some sort of news about that. It's on his page, why cant it be on hers? --Whatshisnamee (talk) 04:54, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree, I think it was newsworthy and covered in significant media - her role in the Me Too movement is significant. That said, this article is a sensitive one, and I'm not the most brushed up on living persons articles, much less semi-protected ones. What work would need to be done to update this article with a section describing the allegation, the corroboration, the unfortunate suicide, and the quote that Holowka "wished Zoe well" ? --Semitones (talk) 00:18, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

A reliable source that writes about this in a way that indicates it's WP:DUE for her article. Good luck finding one, though, because it's not really due.--Jorm (talk) 00:40, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Alright, if that's the case, it doesn't seem like it's worth the effort for the (marginal) benefit it would bring this article. It is certainly an interesting detail, and a story that seems important to the overall Me Too movement though. Also, I took a look and you're right, there weren't many independent, established sources reporting on it. This was perhaps the best source: https://www.salon.com/2019/08/28/gamergate-2-0-zoe-quinn-accuses-game-developer-alec-holowka-of-abuse/ --Semitones (talk) 00:13, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

I see User:Woodroar removed the part about Alec Holowka's suicide with a rather lazy "per the talk page" comment but the recent consensus here seems to be that it SHOULD be included, which I agree with. I think the fact that the Wired called this whole thing "the #metoo moment of the video gaming industry" (not exact quote) makes it obviously notable to include in her article, same with the Salon article posted by User:Semitonesabove. Also I would like to address a comment from 2019 I saw above: it's true that most articles on Holowka's death might not mention Zoe Quinn, but they all mention the accusations, and they do in general single out the specific ones from Quinn, for example the BBC says he was accused by "a female games designer" (not several) ([1]).Thisisarealusername (talk) 04:58, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

After reading through these discussions again—here and at BLPN—I'm seeing an agreement among experienced editors that a mention in this article is UNDUE. That's really not going to change unless (a) there are new reliable sources published later on, or (b) the existing reliable sources get updated. I also don't see any recent consensus here, only editors bringing up the same articles from 2019, which isn't going to shift that weight. Woodroar (talk) 13:19, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Describing Quinn

How do we describe Quinn's positions or roles? It seems to me that the long-standing description—almost 4 years—was adequate and sourced, but it has been changed twice recently by Ashmoo and now by Newo70 without any discussion. Is there a reason for the change? WP:BRD says that it should be reverted until there's consensus for that change, but of course I'd rather not edit war over this. Woodroar (talk) 11:51, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Unless you are allowing the word "artist" to lose all meaning (as it has in the music industry), it can be argued that the description of Quinn as "artist" has been unsourced all this time. --Orange Mike | Talk 13:04, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I misread the diff as removing video game programmer, writer, and artist. You're correct that artist is unsourced, and I have no objections to that being removed if it can't be reliably sourced. I think we should keep video game programmer instead of changing it to simply "programmer", unless we have sources saying that she does programming outside of video games? Plus we should keep the serial commas per MOS:SERIAL. Woodroar (talk) 21:13, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Other projects

The mention of the Project Tingle story seems oddly vague - 'Quinn was reported to be working with erotica author Chuck Tingle.' The Kickstarter strikes me as more direct source to say something more like 'Quinn launched a Kickstarter named 'Kickstarted in the Butt' with erotica author Chuck Tingle.' Any thoughts? I can't see any reason to call the Kickstarter an unreliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Random name (talk • contribs) 15:13, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Pronouns

It appears that Zoe Quinn now uses she and they pronouns, rather than just they/them. As proof, I present her verified Twitter account. She clearly states "she/they" there (note, not "they/she" as some do). Both this and this recent article use she and her, and those seem to be the only recent articles that talk about Quinn. Given that use of she and her have more support in the most recent RS, are of at least equal status with they/them according to her profile, and are easier to read, especially for non-native speakers, the article should use those.

Normally IPs are quick to let us know when these things change, but that may not have happened this time since even the talk page is semiprotected. Of course, I understand why that was done. Crossroads ^-talk- 03:48, 29 September 2021 (UTC)