Talk:Wilhelm Keitel

Moved here

Some believe the hanging violated the rules of the Geneva conventions for how to treat Prisoners of War. There needs to be more detail here if it is to be included. Roadrunner 21:05, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Keitel's last words (two versions)

This article says:

To underscore the criminal rather than military nature of Keitel's acts, the Allies denied his request to be shot by firing squad. Instead, he was executed by hanging. Keitel's last words were: "I call on God Almighty to have mercy on the German people. More than 2 million German soldiers went to their death for the Fatherland before me. I follow now my sons – all for Germany."

But the article Nacht und Nebel says:

In part because of his role in carrying out this decree, Keitel was sentenced to death by hanging, despite his insistence on being shot instead due to his military service and rank. At 1:20am on 16 October 1946 Keitel defiantly shouted out, "Alles für Deutschland! Deutschland über alles!" just before the trap door opened beneath his feet.

These cannot both be true, unless Keitel was a ventriloquist. Can anyone resolve this contradiction? — Lawrence King ^(talk) 06:34, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

My guess is that both are true, and that he began with the more measured words in the first quote, then concluded by shouting the final words in the second quote, but some newspapers chose only to report the final shouts. Also, there appears to be an overlap: 'all for Germany' is the same as 'alles für Deutschland'. Presumably he spoke in German. Dubmill (talk) 10:35, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Your theory makes sense, especially with the overlap you noticed between the two quotes. And surely you're correct that he spoke in German. Hopefully someone has a reliable source that we can cite on this to verify it? — Lawrence King ^(talk) 03:04, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

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Personal life / iron cross

I'm looking to ref his personal life and his awards or delete them if they fail WP:V. They are the only part of the article currently failing WP:V Any ideas? Szzuk (talk) 12:55, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

@Szzuk: I'm not able to find anything either; should probably be removed. --K.e.coffman (talk) 18:32, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

I removed it. I've referenced everything else that was outstanding. Is this anywhere near good article? Szzuk (talk) 19:08, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Copyedit

@K.e.coffman:, @Szzuk: are you looking to take this to GA? If so, I can comment anything that needs changing, if you would like. Regards, Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 09:59, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Before:Keitel was born in the village of Helmscherode near Gandersheim in the Duchy of Brunswick, the eldest son of Carl Keitel (1854–1934), a middle-class landowner, and his wife Apollonia Vissering (1855–1888). His plan to take over his family's estates after completing his education at a gymnasium foundered on his father's resistance.

After:Keitel was born in the village of Helmscherode near Gandersheim in the Duchy of Brunswick, Germany. The eldest son of Carl Keitel (1854–1934), a middle-class landowner, and his wife Apollonia Vissering (1855–1888), he planned to take over his family's estates after completing his education at a gymnasium but this foundered on his father's resistance.

Any comments on this change? I think it reads better, but I may have the changed the meaning a little. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 10:34, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

'In the autumn of 1932, he suffered a heart attack.[6] Shortly after his recovery, in October 1933, Keitel was appointed as deputy commander of the 3rd Infantry Division; in 1934, he was given command of the 22nd Infantry Division at Bremen.'

I presume the recovery was in October 1933? Please clarify that this was the time of recovery and I will be happy to change it to sound better. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 10:51, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

The changes you've made are good. Thank you. I only have phone access until next week and will check sources then. Szzuk (talk) 11:17, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

'a 1939 application for membership was discovered in the archives' what archives? Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:08, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

'As Hitler related after the explosion' what does related mean? clarification needed. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:11, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

The end of the 'Role in the Holocaust' section becomes a bit unfocused. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:24, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

I don't have the source, but I think this needs some clarification: 'Keitel's body, as those of the other nine executed men and the corpse of Hermann Göring, was cremated at Ostfriedhof (Munich) and the ashes were scattered in the river Isar.' Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:34, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Copyedit all  Done, any questions, or any more requests, please do contact me. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:35, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Section "Role in the Holocaust"

Preserving here by providing this link: [1]. My rationale was that the content is somewhat tangential; Keitel committed plenty of this own crimes, directly, and the article should reflect those instead. --K.e.coffman (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

The last couple of sentences, perhaps, but the rest is about him and should remain. (Hohum ^@) 19:34, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

I restored a shortened version, focusing (as it seems was the Browning's intent) on the invasion of Poland: [2]. The version I originally removed was confusing as it talked about "systematic genocide" (in 1939), which was not the case. The genocide of the Jews started with the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. --K.e.coffman (talk) 20:02, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Wilhelm Keitel/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Fiamh (talk · contribs) 06:41, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

• What makes Traces of War an RS?
  • Removed as these details were not significant. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:45, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
• Can we get a page number on ref #17 (Burleigh) for verifiability, or cut it if it's in the other ref?
  • Removed as duplicate. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:45, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
• Not related to GA criteria but one minor quibble with the lede: no need to say 'dependable sycophant and habitual "yes-man"', it's redundant.
  • Shortened. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:45, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
• Great work on this article!