Talk:Waterboarding

See also: Talk:Waterboarding/Definition

This talk page is automatically archived by MiszaBot III. Any sections older than 31 days are automatically archived. Sections without timestamps are not archived.

Torture?

This site is so far left it's sad. If waterboarding was torture, it would be illegal. Since it's not illegal, it can't be called torture. Can we stop with the word games? 68.143.88.2 (talk) 17:58, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Who says it's not illegal? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:59, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Since you think it's legal, can I pick you up and shackle you to a board and deprive you of oxygen until you pass out without getting in trouble? Also, you might check out the letter from 115 law professors who advised the Attorney General that waterboarding is illegal and prosecutable under United States law. Vivaldi (talk) 03:18, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I can remember that being done to me by a girl wearing lots of PVC, and I paid her for it, It was quite arousing, but I don't think it was going to kill me Therubicon (talk) 04:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

The above statement fills the vacuum created by a discussion devoid of any sense of proportion.

Link me to an official .gov page that states waterboarding as a violation of the law.. Or to a supreme court decision classifying it as illegal (never mind, I just found an article that states Obama made the practice illegal. Terrorists across the globe should be pleased) 68.143.88.2 (talk) 18:08, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Surely they are not. They lost one of their best recruiting tools when Bush left office. And your demand is entirely unreasonable. Show me a link that explicitly says that applying the parrilla is illegal, or that throwing someone from a helicopter into the jungle is ("I did not kill him, gravity did"). That's not how laws are written. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:16, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't disagree how laws are written. I'm saying that liberal ideology injected into laws is so illogical; it's mind boggling and downright depressing. Example?: Wickard v. Filburn. Completely insane. 68.143.88.2 (talk) 18:25, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

You might try St John's Wort or Prozac. Do you have anything to say that's remotely on topic? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:23, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

How is "liberal ideology" injected into laws about torture? And how is torture even a liberal or conservative issue? There are conservative Republicans and other conservatives that recognize that depriving people of oxygen is a torture method. Even the Republicans chosen leader in the last presidential election thought that waterboarding was torture and should NEVER happen. [1] Vivaldi (talk) 03:25, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

User:68.143.88.2 asks for a link that establishes waterboarding is a violation of law. Well, if Japanese torturers who waterboarded American GIs, during World War 2, faced war crime trials for having done so, would you agree that establishes the USA considered it a crime in 1945? Geo Swan (talk) 22:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't disagree that waterboarding probably does constitute torture. However, calling it torture is highly controversial and should not be stated as unqualified fact in the first line. Obviously the opinion of some, including those who practised it, is different. It would be better if the opening took the form "Waterboarding is the practice of immobilizing a victim on his or her back with the head inclined downwards... It has been called torture...". --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 16:44, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

No. We have discussed this over and over again. The opinion that it is anything but torture is extreme fringe among reliable sources. It is constrained to an extremely small group of politically motivated and typically involved people. Independent lawyers (and even many US military lawyers and judges), NGOs, victims, courts, physicians, and other experts are unanimous in calling it torture. See WP:FRINGE and the archives of this page. It has been called many things, but it is a form of torture just like the parilla, the rack and the Pau de Arara. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:39, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

(reduce indent) It has been discussed but no consensus was reached. I also notice an inaccuracy in the first footnote (at least I believe it's an inaccuracy): "In the United States in recent years, arguments have been put forward that waterboarding might not be torture in all cases after it was revealed that this technique was used to interrogate suspects in relation to the war on terror". As I understand it, it was decided in 2002, before the practice was revealed, that waterboarding did not constitute torture. If NGOs, victims, courts, physicians, and other experts call the practice torture, the opening paragraph can say that. From a quick search on Google news it's quite clear that, while most people agree it constitutes torture the question is still a matter for argument and the mainstream media is still pretty unanimously treating the question as controversial rather than settled (see below). One important principle of WP:NOR is that WP:SECONDARY sources that evaluate mainstream opinion should be preferred to the stated views of experts, which are primary source material in this case. A fringe theory is one that has little recognition among secondary sources and I'm not sure it applies here. Most reliable secondary sources that claim to evaluate mainstream opinion, as opposed to sources that give an opinion, treat the question as unsettled. In the case of true fringe theories, we don't write that "Elvis Presley is widely believed to have died in..." or "John F Kennedy is widely believed to have been shot by Lee Harvey Oswald", but nor does the source material. That just isn't the case with the definition of waterboarding.

• [2] "Human rights groups, who say that waterboarding amounts to torture"
• [3]"CIA officials will not be prosecuted for using harsh interrogation methods often considered as torture"
• [4]"CIA agents who may have tortured terror suspects during the Bush administration will not be prosecuted. That decision was announced today by President Barack Obama. The Justice Department also formally rescinded Bush administration memos used to justify harsh techniques including beatings and waterboarding." --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 18:39, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

If there are no objections in the next day or so I am going to change the opening to something more neutral. WP:NPOV is absolutely clear about this, it simply isn't acceptable to state controversial opinions as fact: The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting verifiable perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist... None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth"... Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute."

It just isn't true to say the CIA's definition of torture is an extreme fringe view or that there's no serious dispute. If that were the case, there wouldn't be articles like this [5] appearing in the media. There's no point trying to pretend a point of view doesn't exist just because you believe it is politically motivated. This is a highly significant opinion and it is wrong for Wikipedia to take sides in such a controversial matter. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 12:07, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

It's been in this article for more than a year, as far as I remember. This speaks for a strong consensus. There is an extremely limited debate about the status in the US only, where the issue has been heavily politicized. No-where else in the world is there even a discussion about the fact that it is torture. And again, even in the US the informed opinion is extremely unanimous. Have you looked at Talk:Waterboarding/Definition yet? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:23, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. Last night I spent a couple of hours going through archives, RFCs, RFAs and so on. I've not read the mojority of it but I've got a good idea. It seems the dissembling and repeated introduction of new RFCs made any sort of agreement impossible and eventually one side gave up. There were some rather nasty accusations made on both sides (though certainly not by you). Some users seemed to find the whole thing so stressful they gave in. "Strong consensus" certainly isn't a phrase that I would use to summarise the whole thing. You say "No-where else in the world is there even a discussion about the fact that it is torture". Have you seen the link in my previous post, a British source? And why exclude the debate that is taking place in America? Your characterisation of world opinion is really nothing like the reality of the situation. Opinion is not "extremely unanimous" at all. In fact, the world's media is unanimous in using phrases like "may be torture". I have no problem with more weight being given to the torture definition, in fact that is how it should be. It is important though that a majority opinion not be presented as fact.--Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 17:44, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

If you want to push for a new opening lead and a new consensus, feel free. But I would recommend that you hash out your specific proposal here on the talk page first because otherwise I am sure there will be endless edit wars like there was in the past. Remember (talk) 18:04, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

(dedent)If you (Lo2u) are referring to the BBC article: That is a report on the US debate, not a sign of a debate in Britain. Your Guarding source farther above refers to a number of knowledgeable source calling it torture. N-TV, a center-right German news channel, titled just this week CIA-Gefängnisse -Ärzte folterten mit (CIA Prisons - Physicans participated in torture), Straffreiheit auch bei Folter - Obama schont CIA (Immunity even in torture cases - Obama spares CIA), Scharfe Kritik von rechts und links Obama und die Folterknechte (Bipartisan criticism - Obama and the torturers). Or look at this left-wing rag. The Independent says it's internationally condemned as torture. The Times writes about the CIA’s torture techniques. The Baseler Zeitung in Switzerland talks about the autorisierten Foltertechnik des sogenannten Waterboard (the authorized torture technique of waterboarding). And I could go on for ages. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:44, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Your UK Times link says "Opponents of the practice have described it as “torture lite”." See, they're making a distinction. Granted, most of the people who make a show of claiming to oppose torture like to say it's the same thing as real torture.

Your Economist link uses the phrase "which are commonly held to be torture." That would be a nice way to put it.

Back when I was previously debating this here (I'm not staying long), someone who wanted to say it was always torture created a list, and even he slipped up and used the phrase "generally is torture". I thought that would have been a good way to put it. And yet he didn't want the article itself to say "generally".

That said, Lo2u, it's a nice thought, but sometimes it's best that a biased article gives clues at the beginning so that the hapless reader knows what to expect.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 20:57, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

The Times article also talks directly about "the CIA’s torture techniques", and the Economist about "the officials who authorised torture". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:09, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Remember, thank you. I won't do anything until something is agreed. I'm not denying there is lots of sourcing for the opinion that it is torture. The article should be weighted to reflect that. What we should not be doing is using WP:FRINGE to ignore an opinion that is so well sourced and prominent on a topic that is treated as controversial by most media. When the BBC is debating something and presenting something as a matter of opinion, it should not be possible to check the internet and say "apparently it is torture. It says so on Wikipedia." Once again, I return WP:NPOV. We only treat something as fact if it is "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." This isn't even borderline. It doesn't matter whether it is only disputed in America (it's not actually, because the British government is still unwilling to use the term) the disputes are prominent and well-documented and it is highly inappropriate that we should be taking sides.

My proposal, it's been suggested before, "Waterboarding is the practice of laying a victim on his back... It is widely regarded as torture." That is fact, not opinion and is acceptable for Wikipedia. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 21:14, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

< out The discussion was not aided by the use of sock and meat puppets, when led to an Arbitration Committee thing, which grew to be even larger (IIRC) than the talk archives here and eventually the very noisy and Wikipedia experienced pro- "torture is a definition" crowd's opinion was locked in, with dire penalties threatened if attempts were made to change it. htom (talk) 22:38, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. I can see the subject has been left for a while and I hope it can be discussed without arbitrations, RFCs and so on. As you say, last time one side's view was locked in by default, not by consensus and it mustn't happen again. A smaller number of honest editors, a discussion of what the relevant guidelines such as NPOV actually require and perhaps a willingness to compromise are needed. In this case, the best way to ensure consensus is never reached would be to launch a few unnecessary RFAs and RFCs. Fortunately, we're at nowhere near that stage. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 22:49, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Whats the difficulty with understanding this-->

AEB

Waterboarding is considered to be torture by a wide range of authorities, including legal experts, politicians, war veterans, intelligence officials, military judges, and human rights organizations. David Miliband, the United Kingdom Foreign Secretary described it as torture on July 19, 2008, and stated "the UK unreservedly condemns the use of torture."

What meaningful sources do the "not torture" group have to dispute this? ^{(Hypnosadist)} 21:31, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

David Milliband used the term without the blessing of the PM after President Bush resigned. Anyway as I say it's irrelavant, the veiw exists. By the way I'm not a member of the "not torture group", actually if anything I'm a member of the "torture group". What you need to explain is on what grounds you wish to suspend the convention that Wikipedia does not state opinions as facts, unless there is no serious dispute? --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 21:55, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

When did President Bush resign? Did I miss something? --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 00:19, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

The fact there is no serious dispute is why we state it as fact. Just because the President of Iran thinks that the holocaust did not happen does not mean that wikipedia says that the holocaust might of happened. Again What meaningful sources do the "not torture" group have to dispute this? ^{(Hypnosadist)} 22:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

There is a serious dispute. It is disputed by a 2002 memorandum. The President of Iran's views on the holocaust are irrelevant to the history of the holocaust. The legal advice received by the US government which said waterboarding did not constitute torture was the basis for authorising it. Furthermore, there is a vast body of evidence that the question is still disputed among media sources that discuss the question. That isn't the case with the existence of the holocaust. If the only people who thought the practice doesn't constitute torture were the President of Iran, Gerald Toben, David Irving and a few anonymous bloggers it would constitute a fringe theory. As it is, it constitutes a notable minority view. It should not be given undue weight but should not be ignored either. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 22:41, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Thats it, your serious, the Bybee memo. "The legal advice received by the US government which said waterboarding did not constitute torture" WRONG the memo does not say its not torture, just that it MIGHT not meet a very narrow definition of Torture if done right (the memo concludes that torture is defined as "acts inflicting...severe pain or suffering, whether mental or physical." Physical pain "must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death." Mental pain "must result in significant psychological harm of significant duration, e.g., lasting for months or even years,"). Thats not dispute its the case for the defence, now lets try and find a THIRD-PARTY Source that says its not torture (thats not the same as legal for the CIA to do it!) ^{(Hypnosadist)} 23:00, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The Bybee memo gives guidelines to the CIA on practicing waterboarding in a way that would not constitute torture; if you accept it as anything more than a WP:FRINGE view, it is difficult to see how we can say anything more than that waterboarding probably constitutes torture without a breach of NPOV. Equally important as evidence of a serious dispute about the definition are the countless mainstream media sources that discuss whether waterboarding should be defined as torture. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 23:12, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The Bybee memo does not do any such thing. It invents an extremely limited definition of torture that is inconsistent with both the common semantics and essentially all other legal definitions of torture. It also has been withdrawn and superseded. As Hypnosadist pointed out: We don't let thieves redefine the meaning of property. And the media covers the excuses of the US government and very few fringers, it does not (or extremely rarely) "discuss whether waterboarding should be defined as torture". Do you know about any notable and significant third party WP:RS that denies the fact that waterboarding is torture? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:30, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Your opinion of the wording of the memo and of the political motivation of certain sources is original research. There are plenty of media sources that discuss whether waterboarding is torture without drawing conclusions. What is the BBC article if not evidence of a "serious dispute" over whether waterboarding constitutes torture? --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 23:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Which source? ^{(Hypnosadist)} 23:53, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

[6] --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 23:55, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Look, I accept the practice is torture. I accept most people agree it's torture. I want the article to reflect this. I do, however, regard it as my opinion rather than fact. I just think we need to be careful in the first sentence to avoid the appearance of bias and the remark in the next sentence about which groups regard the practice makes the position quite clear. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 23:59, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I take it that is a "no" to my question? And no, that is not my OR, but rather the overwhelming opinion of all experts who have discussed the issue. Also see Bybee_memo#Subsequent_OLC_opinions for the deprecated state of that memo. If you actually read the BBC article (which, by the way, is nearly 1.5 years old), the only person mentioned as denying that waterboarding is torture (and even that very indirectly) is Cheney. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:01, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes. It is the opinions of certain current and former members of the American government that are leading the press to avoid calling the practice torture. I'm just suggesting we follow their lead. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 00:06, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

"I'm just suggesting we follow their lead" We are not G.W.Bushes or the american governments P.R. guys, we are here to build an ENCYCLOPEDIA, these contain facts about the world such as WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE, it was when the french did it, it was when the Dutch did it (300 F'ing years ago) and it was torture while the CIA did it. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 09:48, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

That source does nothing but show that the people who ordered the waterboarding claim its not torture, this we know and document it in the article, and they are Fringe compared to the Medical/Legal/Military sources we have, they have one lawyer they paid for and thats it. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 00:09, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

No they're minority views. Fringe theories are theories that have no relevance to a topic that are not dealt with in mainstream secondary literature on a topic. Ahmadinejad has nothing to do with the holocaust so there's no reason to mention his views, except perhaps in his own article. These views are wrong, they constitute a small minority but they're also important to the topic. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 00:13, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

They are important as historical facts, but they are irrelevant to the definition. For all the claims of "executive privilege", the US government does not yet have the right or the power to redefine the English language. And BTW, how much more mainstream the USA Today do you need it? Report: CIA ordered unnecessary torture. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:17, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

"These views are wrong, they constitute a small minority but they're also important to the topic." Yes and they get way to much weight, remember these are the OPINIONS of a few politicians, as weighed against the Medical/legal and even Semantic RS's from all over the world. World expert Doctors in the treatment of Torture victims from New York to Helsinki say its Torture, Legal opinions from Harvard to H.M.Gov say its torture. Were are the sources to counter these? ^{(Hypnosadist)} 12:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't want to get drawn into this, but Hypnosadist, you tell others to remember that the non-torture peoples opinions are just that, opinions, yet I would remind you that the Medical/Legal peoples opinions are also simply opinions. I think waterboarding is torture, but the problem I have with the article is that it is very opinionated. Yes, more weight should be given to the non-torture people because they are lawyers, doctors, etc, but for a site which is supposed to be NPOV, in the first paragraph I think it could be mentioned that there are people who oppose the definition. Just a short sentence - it wont do any harm seeing as the list of people who consider it torture is both weighted and long. Alan16 ^talk 22:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

"I would remind you that the Medical/Legal peoples opinions are also simply opinions."Nope they are the educated views of reliable sources. Read the NPOV and RS, we give weight to those who know what there talking about not those that don't, thats why its an encyclopedia. Whats the difficulty, find someone with a Phd or Degree in international law who says its not torture, other than the fact no-one with believes that who is not implicated in the current mess in america. So again show me the sources. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 22:49, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

OK, they are reliable sources yet they are opinions, reliable or not. And I'm not going to waste my time looking for sources. I can think of two of the top of my head. One is a medical doctor who says he considers it not torture, and the other is the politician Liebermann (spelling not necessarily correct) who has a basic law degree or something. And I don't know if it is deliberate, but you come across as very abrasive, and you are getting the desired effect as I can't be bothered arguing with someone who appears so derisive.

And you completely ignored my point. It was that there are people who do not call it torture, whether Bush lovers or not it doesn't matter. There are two groups with two different opinions, and OK, one has more academics, but this is a controversial issue and it does not show in the article. And I think that is wrong. Simple as. Alan16 ^talk 23:10, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

"One is a medical doctor who says he considers it not torture" Love to see that source. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 23:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Drowning and reviving people is a form of torture. Waterboarding, which simulates drowning, is a form of enhanced interrigation. Murder is illegal yet we're not critical when the United States puts people to death who are on death row. It's the same thing. Even if waterboarding is torture there is a difference between personal ethics and governmental ethics. I don't think any country would "turn the cheek" if it got attacked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.252.130.19 (talk) 07:32, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

"Drowning and reviving people is a form of torture." Yes, and thats what waterboarding is, it does not "simulate" drowning it is Controlled drowning ask MANCOW ^{(Hypnosadist)} 13:56, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

It's the "reviving" part that seems to be missing in some methods, as it's not needed. Hence my believe that it's "simulated drowning", not "actual drowning". Your OR may vary. htom (talk) 14:15, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

AEB2

Hypnosadist, will you please try to be civil? Stephan, you know I don't think the US government has the right to redefine the English language. That has nothing to do with it. What it does have the right to do is express an opinion. Of course these are "historical" facts, in the sense that they are opinion that were expressed in the past like all the opposing opinions, why does that exclude them from being considered? They are also being debated right now.

To be clear, this isn't a discussion about weight. We all agree that this is a minority opinion and deserve to weighted appropriately. This is a discussion about neutral point of view The policy requires that 'where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist... none of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth"...' You have asked where is the evidence of multiple perspectives. Dick Cheney, the US Office of Legal Counsel, David Rivkin[7] a consititutional lawyer and member of the US Council on Foreign Relations "I think any objective person who arrives without preconceived notions about these memos would conclude the following: tough techniques to be sure but falling well short or torture or inhuman and degrading treatment." Rudolph Giulianni: "it depends how it's done", US lawyer general Michael Mukasey and Dennis Blair, nominee for director of national intelligence have been asked to condemn the practice as torure and refused.

Regardless of the politics or geographic location of these opinion, they are notable, they are being widely reported and they exist. They cannot be ignored. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 23:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC) (edit conflict)"find someone with a Phd or Degree in international law who says its not torture" see above --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 23:07, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Again read NPOV and RS, what qualification does Rudolph Giulianni or Dick Cheney posses to decide what is and is not torture? Which university did they qualify at and how good was that university? Have they produced and peer reviews journal work on torture? That is how you work out if a source is reliable. In the case of Rudolph Giulianni and Dick Cheney they are not RS's. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 23:15, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Michael Mukasey refused to comment on future legal opinions he might have had to try without reading all the evidence (He did not have the high level CIA clearence to read the files). This has been deliberately and grossly misinterpreted to mean ITS NOT TORTURE, thats just not true, he just refused to give a legal opinion that may have bound him without all the evidence. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 23:22, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

(In reply to comment at 23:15) With repect, I'm not sure that is true. We always look for academic qualifications when writing on matters that are purely academic. If we want an opinion about the justice of executing Ruth Ellis, we might look at what the media of the day said. If want to know when someone was born, we might read his biography, if we want to know about the circumstances of Ian Tomlinson's death, we read a newspaper. Not everything needs to be backed up by a PhD. As Alan says, this article comes across as opinionated. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 23:26, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

No its true we look for the most academic sources, this is the area of specialised lawyers and doctors, to decide what is and is not torture.^{(Hypnosadist)} 23:33, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

You don't quite have the hang of civil discourse, do you?

You seem to like lawyers so: Waterboarding was once legal. So at some point it was surely not torture - a view some people still share. Sorry, I forgot, we can't talk about them. Alan16 ^talk 23:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

You are confusing two things, 1)if something is legal 2)if something is torture. So i'll give an example; In Rome it was legal to torture and even kill your own slaves as they were your property, it was still torture. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 23:52, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

We are not talking about Rome. By american law, torture is illegal, yet waterboarding was legal. Conclusion? Obvious. Alan16 ^talk 00:00, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

That is simply wrong. I doubt that waterboarding was ever strictly legal in the US, while plain old torture surely at least widely tolerated. Not actively prosecuting something does not make it legal, it just grants effective immunity to the perpetrators. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:18, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Thats the exact problem OR,please read the archives. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 00:06, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. There are 115 professors of law that advised the AG that waterboarding was illegal and a punishable crime under US law. How many professors of law hold the view that is absolutely legal and unpunishable? Vivaldi (talk) 03:59, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes Hypno, please do try to be more civil. Are you saying that where multiple opinions exist we find the "most academic" one and report is as the truth? If so, what NPOV says is that where multiple opinions exist, we report them all, we weight them appropriately and we do not present one of the as "the truth". --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 23:48, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

No we show all notable POV's with RS's and report them, there are no RS's for Not-torture so we don't cover this in the intro. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 23:58, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

If there were no reliable sources, not only would we not be able to cover this in the intro, we would not be covering it at all, which is clearly not the case. In fact, there are reliable sources, it just happens that there are fewer of them. Counsel for the CIA, various politicians, lawyers, doctors. They all exist and their opinions are all reliably sourced. And this is a medical and legal matter but it is also a political matter. If a prominent and involved politician has a contradictory opinion, is it right that we disregard it? --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 00:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

"They all exist and their opinions are all reliably sourced" Ok it looks like i found the problem, if the BBC quote Fred about waterboarding then his views are reliably sourced but that does not make Fred a reliable source on waterboarding. If the BBC quote Barnie a world renowned expert in the legal definitions torture from Harvard Law School, Barnie is a reliable source on waterboarding. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 11:44, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

May I offer as evidence Richard_Nixon#Watergate? "The term Watergate has come to encompass an array of illegal and secret activities undertaken by the Nixon administration" - although a "prominent and involved politician" claims that the president's blessing automatically makes an act legal. No, involved politician and the CIA are not reliable sources. Which other doctors and lawyers do you have? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:25, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

You dodged an important point of his there. If there are RSs to have controversy in the article, then there are enough RS to have it in the first paragraph. Alan16 ^talk 00:28, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Alan16, I'll be frank. You want what dispute there is about waterboarding's status as torture to be mentioned in the lead, to be part of our definition of the concept.

No.

In your five posts here, you're not concerned about the effectiveness or moral status of waterboarding, but about problems with NPOV. Thanks, it's a refereshing change from what usually goes on here. Unfortunately, it is not neutral or unbalanced to present two opposing camps as equal regardless of the popularity or merit of their opinions. That is the worst kind of cable news sleazebaggery. NPOV is not, and has never been, about giving views equal time. Now, I'm not accusing you of demanding equality - you say that views in favor of it being torture should have more weight - but presenting the "not-torture" side in the lead, as central to the definition of the matter, would go a great way towards that by giving them massive overimportance. You mention that "Just a short sentence" "won't do any harm", but it would do very definite harm by distorting the issue. It'd make it look like the recent U.S. claims are fundamental to the definition of waterboarding. --Kizor 10:53, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I wrote a couple of lines about this back in January. Allow me to copypaste - they probably won't do any good for the discussion, but what would?

"Good evening, I'd just like to bog down this discussion even further by speaking on behalf of the rest of the planet. Arnold Reinhold mentioned that most of the world probably doesn't know what waterboarding is. Probably not - less than 50% of human beings have proper access to the news media - but here in the First World the USA's human rights status is a very visible issue, and waterboarding's a central part of that. You probably could pull a random person off the street in Western Europe, Canada or Australia (possibly Japan too), ask what waterboarding is, and expect an answer. Here's the thing: there hasn't been any debate, controversy or any other discussion about waterboarding not being torture in any of these countries, including staunchly pro-American ones.

It is not reasonable, balanced, informative, neutral, fair or accurate to rewrite the description of a global concept that's centuries old because of the dissenting opinions of a handful of politicians in one country during one single administration, when even within that country waterboarding has been consistently treated as torture by administrations past and future. In fact I'll go as far as state that it is not going to happen. Everyone involved, drop the issue and go do something useful, like phoning a family member. Seriously. In the five-years-and-change I've been on this website I've had to pick up on how the place operates, and trying to get waterboarding's definition as torture contested is entirely tilting at windmills." --Kizor 09:50, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Kizor, I've been here for roughly the same length of time as you and my interpretation of NPOV is the one that I see operating in nearly every article on Wikipedia. Nobody is talking about presenting the two opinions as equal. What we are talking about is not presenting a controversial matter with two well-documented opposing opinions as if there exists only one opinion. If we think Dick Cheney et al are wrong we don't say so, not explicitly, because that introduces POV. Instead we present the views of others as documented in reliable sources and we place a much greater weight on the majority opinion and leave the reader to draw his own conclusion. That has always been the Wikipedia way. In his comments above Hypnosadist speaks of using "the most academic sources". If it were the case that Wikipedia always reports the most academic opinion as fact to the exclusion of less acaademic opinion, there would never be any need for the neutral point of view on a controversial topic because we could simply pick the view with the support of the most PhDs and claim it's fact.

Can we examine what the reliable sources say? I am aware of one academic publication, an article in the Lancet, that discusses the definition of torture and that would certainly meet the strict requirements of the scholarship section in WP:RS. Apart from that, we're reporting primary and self-published sources, and media summaries. As well as academic articles, which are preferred, newspapers are also considered reliable sources and what they most frequently say is that waterboarding is often considered torture. That basically is the opinion of the reliable sources. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 14:00, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Have you looked at Talk:Waterboarding/Sources? Reliable sources that do take a position take one in particular. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:24, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

And then the archived discussions so we don't have to cover the same ground every 3 months. And then read NPOV and RS please. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 14:38, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Hypnosadist, if you are unable to be polite and show good faith you shouldn't be posting here. I've discussed NPOV in virtually every comment I've posted here so please don't imply I haven't read it. The fact that your interpretation differs from mine does not mean I've not looked at it. Stephan thank you, I hadn't noticed that discussion. It doesn't contradict what I said though, does it? We're still looking entirely at non-scholarly non-peer-reviewed comments reported in the media or self-published, aren't we? --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 21:50, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Not quite. We do have a number of remarkable open letters (the JAGs and the Law Professors come to mind), which qualify under the WP:SPS expert clause. If you look carefully, there are also some papers in Jurist, there is the academic collection "The Torture Debate in America" by Greenberg and a host of academic writers, Wallach's paper in the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law, the IRC, and various other experts. On the other hand, there are virtually no opposing views. You keep insisting that newspapers do not clearly commit to one position - well, that's not their job. They report - and they report that waterboarding is indeed widely held to be torture. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:13, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Also the "non-scholarly non-peer-reviewed comments reported in the media" are quite usable if person making the comment is qualified to do so and the paper is trusted to accurately report what he/she said. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 22:31, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Also sources like this --> http://www.irct.org/Default.aspx?ID=3558&M=News&NewsID=1236 are not self published either. Also yet others testified to congress and other political bodies. 22:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

So, Hypnosadist, what you are saying is, the President can't decide what the law means, but 115 law professors can. Even though they weren't elected by the people, and don't have access to all the information regarding the detainees that were waterboarded. Also, you are saying that Executive Branch officials are not RS about how the Executive Branch enforces the law. Lastly, you are saying that all of the sources that agree with the "waterboarding is torture" idea are reliable, but the Executive Branch of the United States is not. Is that what you mean? I'm just looking for clarification. Joshua Ingram 06:08, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about Hypnosadist, but no, the President cannot decide what a law means. It's called separation of powers. Neither can 115 law professors. But what they have, being experts, is a well-qualified opinion (which, by the way, is shared by a huge group of other experts, including any number of military lawyers and JAGs). The Executive may or may not be a RS on certain topics (read up on Iran-contra affair or Watergate), but its not an applicable source on the semantics of the English language, or on the legal definition of certain terms. -Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:07, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

AEB3

I only skimmed this part of the discussion and I'm not entirely sure what the specific dispute is, so I'll just offer my view here. I changed the introduction to be more NPOV. Wikipedia can cover both sides, but it can't take a stance either way and categorically stating "Waterboarding is a form of torture" in the first sentence is a violation of NPOV. The only circumstance where it wouldn't be is if it were some fringe minority view that wouldn't even be covered in the first place. The fact is, both camps have sizable support for them, regardless of which side has more "experts" or is even better reasoned.

NPOV is not to be confused with a previously proposed and rejected policy, "scientific point of view" ("legal point of view" would be analogous). So long as both sides have substantial support, regardless of how intelligent or stupid that support may be, Wikipedia isn't allowed to take a factual stance.

However, NPOV does require showing the positions in proportion to how much support they have, so if one has 30% support, it should be about 30% of the article. You can subdivide this for sections/proportions covering scientific viewpoints, legal viewpoints, general population viewpoints, etc... We are only talking about reliable sources in terms of representing how these views are proportioned in the respective groups. So yes, academic sources would be great for a purely academic discussion, as someone said, but this is also a political and ideological issue.

This is why, for example, articles on the evolution controversy are split about evenly, in proportion to how supported they are in the general population, but strictly scientific articles are pretty much 99% pro-evolution.
-Nathan J. Yoder (talk) 11:36, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, whats your point, this is a scientific article just like Evolution as theory and fact. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 18:26, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

This discussion has been had many times before. The reliable sources virtually all say that waterboarding is a form of torture. We are not in the business of polling what the pundits say. If we look at scholarly sources, there is no debate. Jehochman ^Talk 11:40, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

The reliable sources show plenty of people who support the viewpoint that it's not torture. As I said, it is called Neutral POV, NOT Scientific POV. This kind of discussion has been tried many times and it's always been the conclusion that NPOV =/= SPOV. This is precisely why opposing viewpoints haven't been removed from evolution articles. Good luck on convincing them that Wikipedia abides by SPOV. Pay special attention to the Undue Weight, Balance, and Impartial Tone sections of WP:NPOV. Remember, there is a big difference between proportioning according to belief and the article taking a stance. Aside from the legal aspect, there is even an issue of who would be considered a relevant scholar, anyway (i.e. whether it's linguists, ethicists, doctors, etc..). That's one of the many reasons why Wikipedia has to represent both sides and not take a stance. -Nathan J. Yoder (talk) 11:56, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, please don't revert an entire statement that establishes a NPOV for the intro simply because a part of it has a weasel word (which I marked as such myself, btw, as a note to myself and others to put the relevant cites there). You reverted the first and second half of the sentence, even though only the second half had the weasel word. It's against the idea of WP:WEASEL to remove a phrase when it's obviously true (who really believes that only some fringe minority holds the opposing view?) and the article itself even later cites specific groups and individuals who hold the opposing viewpoint. It was only a matter of condensing some of the other sources and perhaps some new ones with citations at the beginning, which I hadn't gotten around to yet. -Nathan J. Yoder (talk) 12:07, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with Stephan. The Department of Justice (DoJ), at the direction of the President, can decide how they want to enforce the law. For instance, we have Obama telling the DoJ not to enforce immigration laws.

Also the President has the ability to issue Executive Orders. President Bush signed EO 13440 on July 20, 2007, which authorized the CIA and the military to use the "enhanced interrogation techniques" authorized by the Bush Administration. While I agree that the President cannot interpret the laws, which is the job of the Judicial Branch, it can decide what the law means, in the context of Executive Orders.

And way to go, Nathan! Joshua Ingram 12:44, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

That is plain nonsense. The president can indeed influence how laws are enforced, but not what they mean. Illegal immigration remains illegal, even if immigrants are not send back immediately. Torture remains illegal, even if Bush authorizes it. Indeed, as Commander in Chief he can order all kinds of atrocities - he has the power, but he does not have the right. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:16, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

No, you aren't getting my meaning. I am not saying, or advocating, that a President has the right to declare what laws mean. What I'm saying is, a President does have the right to declare what his Administration says the law means. For instance, (THE FOLLOWING IS COMPLETELY HYPOTHETICAL!!!), let's say President Obama decided that, for whatever reason, the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, was a threat and needed to be assassinated. But, he runs into a problem: EO 12333, written by President Ford, specifically prohibits assassinating foreign heads of state. Solution: The President declares a Presidential Finding, stating that the EO doesn't apply in wartime. In the simplest terms, a Finding means the law means what the President thinks it means.

Someone might notice this idea is not original. I know, I stole it from Debt of Honor by Tom Clancy. I'm not saying that Ahmadinejad needs to be assassinated, just using an example. Torture is illegal. Absolutely. However, the President can write an EO that says it is not illegal to use certain interrogation techniques on enemy combatants arrested on a foreign battlefield that are not a part of a uniformed army. And that's what Bush did. He didn't change the Constitution, he didn't suspend Habeas Corpus, he just said that civilians caught committing acts of terror against US Armed Forces are not POW's, and are not subject to the Geneva Conventions, or the Bill of Rights.

And by the way, and I'm saying this because I haven't seen it stated on here yet, (I haven't read the whole thing, so if this argument has been made, I didn't know, and I apologize) but they do put something over the face of the subject, so no actual water goes in the mouth or nose. Also, there is a medical doctor observing-in person-at all times when waterboarding is used, to make sure there is no physical harm. Joshua Ingram 15:34, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

• I'm about to listen to ManU so i can't talk for 2 hours but please read Iph's very good argument above about torture and please remember that america is only 5% of the world and waterboarding existed 200 years before america declared independance. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 16:24, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

"medical doctor observing-in person-at all times when waterboarding is used" The same was true for the Gestapo, they were still found guilty of war crimes in Norway. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 18:29, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

We cover the issue of Bybee memo in this article, but it does not effect what the rest of the world say is illegal. The UN, EU and CoE all say waterboarding is torture and illegal under the UN charter of fundamental human rights, we also have much legal president on the illegality of waterboarding even in wartime. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 18:40, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

• The UN? Is this the same UN that gave Pro-Abortionists (Not Pro-Choice, Pro-Abortionists) Human Rights medals? The same UN that commits these kinds of lawful acts? The UN that put the Sudan and Zimbabwe on their own Human Rights Council? Oh, okay. I'm with you. Joshua Ingram 19:14, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes that UN. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 19:42, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, the United States is not a member of the European Union, or the Council of Europe (I'm assuming that's what CoE meant), so their laws are not applicable to us. Joshua Ingram 19:17, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

This encyclopedia is written from a global perspective, see NPOV, the European court of human rights has said as legal opinion that waterboarding violates UNDHR and UNCAT, those were signed up to by the USA. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 19:50, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the United States probably broke the rules (I say probably because I actually haven't followed the international side of the story that well) with some international treaties. I am not disputing that waterboarding is considered illegal by some world organizations. I am also not disputing the correctness of your facts. However, it was not considered illegal under the Bush Administration, and we are not subject to EU and CoE laws. My point is, it is not POV to dispute the illegality of something that is primarily illegal outside of the jurisdiction the "crime" was committed in. If we violated a few treaties, yes, that is illegal. However, you can't throw the EU and the CoE around as if we are subject to their laws. That's like me calling the PRC a bunch of illegal abortioners simply because they do not follow American law. It's not right. That's POV, as well, whether NPOV states a global perspective or not. I do not have a problem with the statement that it is against the law in several places, but you have to mention that the US is not subject to those rules. And, is the European Court of Human Rights declaration binding in any way, or just a statement? I ask because I've never heard of them. (I am quite ignorant to the international side of law.) If it's not binding, then you can't say that it is illegal, only that it is considered illegal by some people. Joshua Ingram 20:11, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Heres the source used for the article http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/02/europe-rights-court-upholds-absolute.php ^{(Hypnosadist)} 22:18, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

• Josh, there are so many things wrong with your post that it will be hard not to lose track. First, let me say that a thriller by Clancy is not a reliable source and indeed, a very bad source of legal opinion. Secondly, it may be surprising, but it already is illegal to kill foreign heads of state, or indeed anybody, in nearly all situations. Ford's order does not create this illegality, it only confirms this explicitly and with reference to the CIA. And Obama cannot make such an action legal, no matter what he declares. He may succeed in ensuring that the law is not enforced, in particular not under US jurisdiction, but that again has no effect on the legality of the act. But anyways, all this is an aside. No matter if Bush authorizes waterboarding, no matter if the US congree declares it legal, and the UN suports this, even if a voice from Heaven declares "thou shallst waterboard the unbelievers", it still remains a form of torture. Oh yes, and those medical doctors not only violated basic human rights, but also their professional ethical duties. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:34, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) First of all, I was not using Debt of Honor as a fact reference, but I used it to point out that the hypothetical storyline I gave is not an original idea, and not my original idea. Second, who says it's illegal for the government to sanction the killing of enemy heads of state in wartime? Thirdly, I have agreed that it is a form of torture all along. Thanks for making it look like I haven't. However, we have an obligation to remember that there is a difference between legality and morality. Is it moral to waterboard enemy combatants? That would depend on your point of view. My opinion my OPINION, is that it is not moral, but sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to save lives. Am I glad that they waterboarded three people? Yes. The information they got stopped more terrorist attacks. Was it legal? According to the US Government, YES it was. Maybe illegal to everyone else in the world, but not according to the Bush Administration, and from 2001-2009, they were the elected head of the government, and they had the right to do whatever they deemed necessary to protect the people, with the consent of the people's representatives. Do I like that fact? No. No, I don't. Joshua Ingram 18:52, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

"Maybe illegal to everyone else in the world, but not according to the Bush Administration, and from 2001-2009, they were the elected head of the government" That POV is documented in the article, it does not change the fact waterboarding is Torture. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 19:53, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Let me add that "they had the right to do whatever they deemed necessary to protect the people" would make Jefferson spin in his grave at 18000 RPM or more. *must*avoid*Godwin's law*... ---Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:02, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Thomas Jefferson once shot a man on the White House lawn for treason. (Without a trial first, I might add.) I think he'd be cheering in his grave. Joshua Ingram 20:14, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

You must live in a very different world. In this one, Thomas Jefferson did not shoot any man, neither on the White House lawn, nor, to our knowledge, elsewhere, and neither for treason nor for any other reason. May I suggest you check your source? I already mentioned Tom Clancy novels as unreliable sources. The same holds for most Hollywood movies and also for most things found on WorldNetDaily. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:26, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

During Jefferson's presidential administration, Rodney Cox, from North Carolina was discovered in the act of providing former Tories with information regarding the American naval forces capability to secure American shores. After a brief ad hoc trial, Cox was convicted and sentenced to death by firing squad. Jefferson, being a notorious Anglophobic at the time, served as the sole member of the firing squad. With a single bullet dispatched from a flint lock rifle, Cox received a fatal wound. It took 10 hours for Cox to expire, during which he lay prostrate on the White House lawn. Afterwards, he was committed to the sea in a right proper burial, albeit, without any fanfare. Source -Robert Ludlum, PhD, American History, U. Wisconsin Is that good enough for you? Joshua Ingram 20:38, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

No. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:57, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

And I am going to politely ask that you stop making personal attacks. If you don't like what I have to say, you can respond just like every other rule-abiding user, you can report me, I don't really care. But stop acting like an assclown. Joshua Ingram 20:43, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

You know what? Nevermind. I have lost my faith in good faith users on disputed pages. Please, bash me all you want, because I'm sure you are going to anyway, you cowards. I am done with all of you closed-minded assclowns on this page. As for those of you brave (or stupid) enough to continue, Godspeed. Joshua Ingram 20:54, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

AEB4

Njyoder admits that they didn't read the discussion before adding weasel words to the lede. We don't care what Bush, Obama, DOJ or Amnesty International think. They are not reliable sources for anything axcept their own opinions. We don't get to NPOV by doing a mashup of opinions. We get to NPOV by surveying reliable sources. We've done that, and the situation has not changed since then. Nobody has brought forward a reliable source stating that waterboarding isn't torture. Again, politicians are not reliable sources. Those who continue arguing disruptively could be subject to arbitration sanctions per the message at the top of this page. Jehochman ^Talk 13:19, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I'm not able to access the internet very much at the moment. I'm on a slow dialup connection and until my ISP gets its act together, probably another week, I really can't keep an eye on this thread. The thing is, I don't think that's really true. We're mostly reliant on self-published sources for the opinion in the first sentence. It has been claimed that they some are acceptable under the expert clause of WP:SPS. Fair enough, but such opinions ought to be treated a bit more cautiously. The footnote speaks of "legal experts, politicians, war veterans, intelligence officials, military judges, and human rights organizations". Some legal experts, politicians and intelligence experts have voiced the opposite opinion. Some of them are mentioned above. "Nobody has brought forward a reliable source stating that waterboarding isn't torture." There is at least one undeniably reliable, academic source. That is David Rivkin, who has said unequivocally that the practice is not torture. He is a clear expert (see publications[8][9]) Frankly I can't be bothered discussing this much more, when one editor is so incapable of civilised discussion. I'm starting to think an opinionated, biased opening is better than a subtler bias. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 21:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately i do not access to that source, but when amazon searched it i could not find the words Torture or Waterboarding in the abstract. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 22:12, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm referring to the expert clause of WP:SPS, which was also cited by Stephan when I suggested, correctly, the torture definition sources were mainly self-published. This is an established expert on the subject of international law and these publications are evidence of that. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 22:19, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

My mistake, now where is the source were he says waterboarding is not torture? ^{(Hypnosadist)} 22:43, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, I mentioned the Radio 4 source above (note 22) (The World Tonight, 20/04/09 "I think any objective person who arrives without preconceived notions about these memos would conclude the following: tough techniques to be sure but falling well short or torture or inhuman and degrading treatment." ) Also see [10] --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 22:53, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

The idea that there are no sources to the contrary belief of many is simply stupid. The problem with the debate on the NPOV of this article has never been to do with sources, etc, it is to do with certain users being so being so single-minded and brash. The idea that debate can happen on this talk page is entirely disingenuous. Alan16 ^talk 23:17, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Debate can happen given you know RS and NPOV. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 11:05, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

"The idea that there are no sources to the contrary belief of many is simply stupid." I and others have not said that, there are plenty of sources of americans (and only americans) saying waterboarding is not torture. None so far have met the criteria for being a Reliable Source for that opinion. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 11:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The article is excessively opinionated. It's as simple as that. When I read a Wikipedia article I do not expect to gain an insight into the politics of its author. That is always a bad sign. It says, as evidence in support of its assertions that politicians, war veterans and intelligence operatives all say waterboarding is torture. We point out that not all of them say that and some of them are recorded as saying the opposite. The retort is, "well politicians and war veterans aren't reliable sources". In that case, why is any value placed on their assertions? Why are they cited in the first footnote? That said, the evidence of the sort of expert, academic source that Hypnosadist asked for does no harm. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 00:00, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

"It says, as evidence in support of its assertions that politicians, war veterans and intelligence operatives all say waterboarding is torture." Nope it has half a HISTORICAL ARTICLE devoted to the COVER STORY of the Bush admin, anyway lets have a look at this supposed RS. Mr Rivkin is an actual lawyer, that makes him a step up from the talk show hosts that are usually claimed RS. He even has some experiance of international treaties but only in the area of Energy. Once you look into him hes just a corporate lawyer (quite good ,with a big company), he has no training or expertise in UNDHR or UNCAT or GCIII. Nice try, this is getting closer, now try to find a lawyer who is qualified to talk on the nature of torture. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 11:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to add him to the Controversy over classification as torture in the United States section. But to believe that his legal opinion carries the weight of 100+ legal professors, JAG's who served thier country for 20+ years or internationally renowned experts on Human Rights has no basis is wikipedia policy. 11:12, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Hypno, I've complained several times about your uncivilised tone and I don't know whether you're taking notice. It really isn't polite to begin every post with "Nope." Especially in this case, when my description of the first footnote in the article was accurate. If you were familiar with legal scholarship, you would know that it is perfectly normal for professional rather than university lawyers to write academic journal articles and that their scholarliness (or otherwise) is judged not by their job title but by the quality of the peer-review process and the number of citations other authors give them. According to WP:V: "In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses". I have just pointed to a journal article published in the Washington Quarterly, which is one of the most reputable peer-reviewed journals on international affairs, which is also published by the MIT Press. For you to claim its author doesn't fit the requirements of a reliable source, when in fact he fits the requirements of the most reliable sources, is quite disingenuous. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 00:22, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes hes published, he would be great RS on international treaties to do with Energy,his area of experience. He is not an RS on Torture! Let me explain, a man with a Phd in the area of Enzyme Bio-Kinetics is not an RS on Climate Change. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 12:29, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you ask Joe Barton... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:00, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Two things. Firstly you're trying to partition legal scholarship into extremely narrow artificial disciplines like international energy law and torture law that don't actually exist. The climate change example isn't relevant. In legal academia specialisations are far broader than that. Secondly, have you looked at his publications? This one[11] from the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy specifically discusses Bush's foreign policy in the Middle East and the legality of various measures designed to prevent terrorism. This one[12] discusses the legality of the Iraq war in international law. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 22:36, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm reading the sources see you tomorrow. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 23:08, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that Rivkin's statement on a BBC radio show qualifies as a reliable source. Now, look at the sources listed at Talk:Waterboarding/Archive_7#Is.2Fisn.27t_torture_--_list_all_sources_here. The overwhelming majority of them say that waterboarding is torture. The application of WP:WEIGHT is clear, yes?

Furthermore, that's a list from 2008, now that some of the Bush admin memos justifying the use of "harsh interrogation tactics" have been released, I have no doubt that there are more sources that state waterboarding is torture. This interview with Darius Rejali in Harper's is relevant, as is Rejali's book Torture and Democracy.

By the way, the sources listed in /Archive7 are by and large not self-published, so we don't really need to rely on WP:SPS here. --Akhilleus (talk) 23:24, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, the application of weight is clear. I don't want to write this article in a way that gives the impression that this is anything other than a small minority opinion. Indeed, if you think the "not torture" definition is given too much weight, I'm open to the possibilities of cutting it down. My only concern is for getting the right opening sentence. If we wrote, for example, that the relevant experts are largely of the opinion that waterboarding is torture, or even that they are almost unanimously of that opinion, would that not fulfill the criteria of weight? It certainly wouldn't be a weasel wording if attributed in the footnote. I appreciate there are probably additional sources since archive 7 but that is probably the case for the contrary definition too. Though I haven't been able to access this [13] to see what argument is made and the wording of the title is rather open to interpretation, it does appear that this is an argument against the torture definition too. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 00:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

BTW Akhilleus, I know editing others' comments is generally frowned on so I hope I'm not being too presumptuous: I've just corrected your link to archive 7. I will review these comments tomorrow and it will make life a little easier. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 00:22, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for correcting the link. In my opinion, the lead sentence is fine the way it is, and properly represents the overwhelming majority of expert opinion on waterboarding. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

The Lancet article Lo2u refers to [14] is freely available after free registration. It is only a one-page opinion piece, strongly condemning waterboarding as torture: "[US President George W Bush] has stated consistently that waterboarding, which simulates a near-drowning experience, is not torture and within the law....Such a position violates not only the moral precepts of my own faith and many others', but also the Hippocratic oath. How can those of us who made a commitment to use 'our art' to help the sick and to 'never do harm' remain silent when we know such actions occur?...I believe that torture is abhorrent to all that is moral and sacred to us as civilised beings. ...I do believe that as physicians—healers and guardians of the public trust—we should speak out forcefully and clearly on this issue." --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:36, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Point taken.--Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 00:43, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally, the global warming article has been referred to quite a few times now and the situation is similar to this one. I'm wondering if the precedent of that article might provide some sort of consensus. Expert opinion is largely on one side but there's a vocal and attributable minority opinion. In the opening of the global warming article, no mention is made of theories that there might be other, more significant factors causing climate change or that global warming isn't happening. The idea is completely ignored. However, the article avoids a wording equivalent to "Global warming is an anthropogenic phenomenon", by instead stating what the IPCC has concluded. If anything this lends authority to the assertion because it cannot be dismissed as merely the opinion of the editor. Would a similar approach overcome objections of undue weight here? We don't even hint at the possibililty of another view in the opening but we reword it to say, for example, that the UN Committee Against Torture has concluded that the practice constitutes torture? --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 01:16, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the global warming article starts with a clear statement of fact - "Global warming is..." - just as this article. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

To Lo2u, I don't think it is clear at all. Short of the only opposition being a fringe minority viewpoint (which this clearly isn't), you can't state something as a matter of fact. Even one of the sources claimed, John McCain, actually retracted his previous statements against waterboarding in February of 2008 (not sure why he's an "expert" though as that would mean any politician would be). I would appreciate it if you responded directly to my comment as well, as Jehochman seems to be the only one who has tried and he more just reiterated his original point.

There are two main points here that I had state before: 1) what is an expert source in this respect is unclear and 2) NPOV does not give special precedence to scholars any more than it does to equally prevalent journalists, except as it concerns portions of articles specifically about that type of scholarly analysis. Legal analysis is only one aspect of this, there is also a semantic aspect (and an embedded ethical one in that). Legal analysis only answers "is it legal?" We don't have any linguists or experts in semantics as sources. If we did, we'd see that a massive number of people exist on both sides of the fence, semantically. Ethically, who do we turn to? And obviously, Bush had his legal experts author their views that he used to authorize this and high court judges have made decisions on the matter. Was there a legal survey done on this?

Long ago (and this is reiterated by Jimbo himself), it was rejected that NPOV was "scientific POV." By extension, it's not "[insert type of expertise] POV." This article isn't called "legal analysis of torture," thus all other POVs on this matter apply--linguistic, ethical, or any else. If this was "expert POV," the articles on evolution would be radically different. -Nathan J. Yoder (talk) 09:50, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I should add a bit. It was brought up that the POV statement in the beginning cited "authorities, including legal experts, politicians, war veterans, intelligence officials, military judges, and human rights organizations." Only legal experts, and potentially a military judge, could really be called a legal expert. If we're using psychologists as experts (which intelligence officials are usually not), then we'd need to survey psychology sources and deal with the issue of whether or not a widely accepted psychological definition of torture even exists (I am doubtful and as such, they'd only really be experts on what effects it would have, not what it is). The second source cited is an article from vanity fair, and it's not clear who they're citing as experts, since the implication from it (and the APA's ok) that psychologists exist on both sides. It doesn't seem like the editors have looked much into psychology journals and opinions of torture psychology experts thus far. -Nathan J. Yoder (talk) 10:31, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

The APA now (after much feet dragging due to earning a lot of money form the military) state that waterboarding is torture and participating in it is a breach of medical ethics, a view backed up by the Lancet et al. "intelligence officials" covers people like the current head of the DIA not the members of the APA. "military judge"s which are unanimous on the subject say waterboarding violates GCIII common article 3 (also they are all americans). ^{(Hypnosadist)} 14:51, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Jehochman, could you please specifically address the things that I've said? All you did was simply reiterate your original position, even though I offered counter-points to it. And please don't put words into my mouth. I said that I skimmed it, there is a big difference, especially considering the discussion's size. You haven't offered any good reason for my original statement to not remain as it is, nor why you did a complete revert, as opposed to a partial one, which inherently renders it a violation of NPOV especially as reliable sources do exist as specified later in the thread (which meet your own standard). Please specifically respond to my points regarding the link sections, the evolution analogy, how weight is distributed, types of experts, and why this isn't "scientific POV" (or "expert POV") for that matter.

Accusing me of "arguing disruptively" is a bad faith assumption, especially when you are not specifically addressing my points. If you aren't willing to discuss this, all I can do is re-modify the opening statement to make it NPOV, with necessary citations (because you seem intent on ignoring the purpose of WP:WEASEL just to further your viewpoint on the issue). -Nathan J. Yoder (talk) 09:50, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Has anyone bothered to read evolution there is no mentions of the unscientific views of religion until right at the end. One reading that article would not know millions of people are too brainwashed to understand science. evolution is written from a scientific point of view. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 14:58, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

AEB5

A couple of points I wanted to add to this discussion:

1. When we say "waterboarding is a form of torture" we are not making a legal conclusion under any country's law and instead we are simply using 'torture' as it is defined commonly (usually something along the lines of experiencing intense physical or mental pain). Therefore, the findings that a court or a jurisdiction would find waterboarding to not violate a prohibition on torture would be interesting to note, but not necessarily dispositive on whether we report that "waterboarding is torture".

2. Those in the Bush administration that defended the use of waterboarding as not qualifying as torture legally still acknowledge the following:

(1) those subjected to it experience the fear or panic associated with the feeling of drowning ("the subject's body responds as if the subject were drowning...although the subject may experience the fear or panic associated with the feeling of drowning, the waterboard does not inflict physical pain"),

(2) those subjected to waterboarding as a method of interrogation have a reasonable belief that they are in fact being put to death by waterboarding or will die as a result of waterboarding ("We find the use of the waterboard constitutes a threat of imminent death… Although the procedure will be monitored by personnel with medical training and extensive SERE school experience with this procedure who will ensure the subject's mental and physical safety, the subject is not aware of any of these precautions. From the vantage point of any reasonable person undergoing this procedure in such circumstances, he would feel as if he is drowning at the very moment of the procedure due to the uncontrollable physiological sensation he is experiencing. Accordingly, it constitutes a threat of imminent death and fulfills the predicate act requirement under the statute.")

3. The Bush administration's legal conclusions (which were later withdrawn by subsequent legal analysis) depend upon two conclusions, which in fact are disputed by experts:

(1) waterboarding does not inflict pain ("Thus, although the subject may experience the fear or panic associated with the feeling of drowning, the waterboard does not inflict physical pain"), and

(2) that the threat of immediate death would not cause prolonged mental harm ("Although the waterboard constitutes the real threat of imminent death, prolonged mental harm must nonetheless result to violate the statutory prohibition on infliction of severe mental pain or suffering… We have previously concluded that prolonged mental harm is mental harm of some lasting duration, eg, mental harm lasting months or years.Based on your research into the use of these methods at the SERE school and consultation with others with expertise in the field of psychology and interrogation, you do not anticipate that any prolonged mental harm would result from the use of the waterboard… In the absense of prolonged mental harm,no severe mental pain or suffering would have been inflicted, and the use of these procedures would not constitute torture within the meaning of the statute.")

If you disagree with either of these conclusions (which it appears almost all experts on torture disagree with), then even under the Bush adminsitration's analysis you would have to consider waterboarding torture as defined under the law.

That is all. Remember (talk) 11:31, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

FTW Remember. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 11:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

And while this clearly is original research, please consider walking up two flights of stairs at a comfortable pace, exhale, and then just hold your breath for 40 seconds. Then imagine this helplessly bound on your back, blinded, with water pouring down your mouth and nose, and without the ability to start breathing anytime you want. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:52, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Thats a very weak version of waterboarding, try the "Hypnosadist Its not Torture Honest BDSM workout" based on testimony from inside Gitmo;

1)First strip naked and go to a public place for your "not torture" to begin.

2)Now you are ready for the warm-up exercises, we call these "stress positions" (do try this at home).Stand with your feet shoulder width apart(you might like to have your "not torture"er degrade you publicly by saying how ugly and tiny your genitals are to enhance this interrogation), bend at the knees until they are at right angles keeping your torso vertical. Now keeping the knees bent and torso vertical raise up as high as possible on tip toes. Stay that way for a week (what do you mean you could only last 2 to 5 minutes before you stopped). That hurt didn't it? after a few days your calves start to swell to up to 2 times normal size, medical staff at gitmo measured KSM's often so they would know when to stop, this is due to the risks of DVT and Stroke. Now given that you have to stay that way for a week you will have to piss and shit yourself, but standing in your own piss and shit in physical agony is "not torture".

3)Now naked, covered in your own shit and piss and in agony from the "not torture" you have already had its time for the Main Event WATERBOARDING. Have yourself tied to a board head down and let the waterboarding begin. After the first 15 seconds you will beg for it to stop, your "not torture"er will then listen to you beg and offer sexual favours for it to stop.Then they will then waterboard you again, and again and again. After about four lots of "not torture" your body will be unable to physically endure any more so we will have to stop (too high a risk of heart failure). So its back to the stress positions and the shit 'n piss for a day or two.

4)Repeat for perhaps ever (thats one of the worst thing about "not torture", never knowing when it will end)

Hope that has explained the real nature of "not torture". ^{(Hypnosadist)} 12:42, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

What i love is that none of the pro torture people have challenged my discription above as not torture. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 15:11, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Don't take too much satisfaction from that. There is plenty to challenge there. You're just not worth the time.

It's not our business to say whether or not it is torture under the given circumstances.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 16:18, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's understand what's at stake. Condoleeza Rice and Dick Cheney are now in jeopardy of being indited for authorizing torture of prisoners. It's not yet clear what process will be used to investigate what happened, but it looks like some sort of investigation will take place. When folks look for information about waterboarding on the internet, as many citizens and journalists do, the very first search result is our article, and our lead sentence Waterboarding is a form of torture appears on the search results page. We would be very naive to think that Cheney, Rice, et al will not be engaging in an intensive public relations campaign to defend themselves. No doubt folks sympathetic to their position will try to meddle with our article. We must not allow this to happen. We must also not allow the opponents of the Bush administration to use this article to further their goals either. Jehochman ^Talk 12:57, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with Jehochman on this as Cheney, Rice, et al have more important things to worry about, like there upcoming trip to the Hague. Though their supporters do turn up regularly, they are free to do so. I know the wounds are raw on the disruptive editing of 2007 but none of what has happened has reached that level, some editors have just not read the sources (all 150+ used in the article and more not) or the archives and have dived in feet first into an argument that covers vast ranges of topics.^{(Hypnosadist)} 14:11, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I hope you are right, but am not so optimistic. We need to be vigilant, though not vigilante. Jehochman ^Talk 14:58, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Jehochman, look at the contributions summary of the people who have edited this page. Do any of us look like PR campaigners on behalf of Bush, Cheney et al? You should perhaps have a read of WP:AGF too. This is indicative of the problem with the article. Some editors are so convinced that theirs is the only point of view that when other editors suggest not everyone agrees with them, they can't help but suspect their motives. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 01:11, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Remember, that is not torture "as it is commonly defined," as there isn't a single definition agreed upon by the majority. There is a huge debate over whether or not this semantically qualifies as torture. People are clearly heavily divided on how it is defined with respect to waterboarding. This article stating that waterboarding is torture is thus a clear NPOV violation. -Nathan J. Yoder (talk) 09:56, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

"as there isn't a single definition agreed upon by the majority" Actually yes there is, that of UNCAT which has been signed up to and ratified by the governments of virtually all countries. A definition it clearly meets see the "Bent Sørensen, Senior Medical Consultant to the International Rehabilitation Council for Torture Victims" source. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 15:02, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

"There is a huge debate over whether or not this semantically qualifies as torture." Not in the real world, here only the Gestapo and G.W.BUSH claim that waterboarding is an enhanced interrogation technique(yes they used that same euphemism). ^{(Hypnosadist)} 15:06, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

As for me, I saw the opening sentence and was stunned that this article was not flagged as being in violation of NPOV. And I went directly to the discussion page, without even reading the article. Since I came here for NPOV information and immediately concluded that I wasn't getting such, the article was useless to me. Now, you can claim that you have WEIGHT and enough RS to make such a statement, but that won't change the fact that there is considerable debate among the public at large as to whether it's a true statement. If you want the article to be useful to people, you can't start it off with such an apparent (whether or imagined or real is immaterial) NPOV violation. It lessens the value of the entire article. I'm sure I'll be vilified for this conclusion for a variety of reasons (I can list them in my head already), and since I have no desire to engage in a pointless argument, this is the only and only post I will make on this topic. But I won't use the page in my research, either. Cjbreisch (talk) 13:26, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

"but that won't change the fact that there is considerable debate among the public at large as to whether it's a true statement." Yes we know, about 30% - 50% of americans claim waterboarding is not torture, their still wrong and every Medical source says there wrong, the ECHR says their wrong, American military Judges say their wrong etc etc etc. We don't write this encyclopedia based on what the under-educated masses of america think (such as beliefs in aliens, ghosts or creationism) we use RS's, they say its torture. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 14:21, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Ignorance is a global phenomenon. We should welcome the ignorant. Welcome them because they need an encyclopedia most of all. Jehochman ^Talk 14:33, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Correct and i'm not vilifying Cjbreisch (hopefully), if he/she is serious about researching waterboarding it won't matter we they look they will find it is torture. I would say look at the work of Dr Keller at NYU who is america's top expert on the treating of torture victims, also the statements of torture victims such as Sen. John McCain and other american serving and ex military personel who view it as torture (as well violating GCIII). ^{(Hypnosadist)} 16:20, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

The definition (again)

I decided to leave this a few days because it was getting nowhere. However it really does require proper discussion: Hypno, did you not say: "we show all notable POV's with RS's and report them, there are no RS's for Not-torture so we don't cover this in the intro"? Have I not supplied a reliable source whose expert nature you haven't questioned? Given that I agree that this doesn't warrant coverage in the intro, can you not agree that the opening definition needs to be toned down very slightly? Perhaps by the avoidance of the word "is", because multiple sourced opinions exist? It's really a very small concession I'm asking. As I've said, it doesn't mean that we present the two opinions as equal, just that we adopt the neutral point of view, that where conflicting, reliably sourced opinions exist we don't present any of them as "the truth", even if we make it very clear which the expert opinion favours. This isn't a very radical interpretation of WP:NPOV, is it? --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 00:05, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

The suffocation of a bound prisoner with water is, by definition, torture, just as is the rack (torture). All sources save the fringe opinions of a few U.S. politicians and media personalities verify this. Badagnani (talk) 02:21, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Well that is your opinion and although I agree, this isn't a very good approach when it comes to Wikipedia editing. What you're saying is "this is the definition of torture, this is the defintion of waterboarding, therefore waterboarding constitutes torture": it's called the synthesis of published material to advance a position and is considered original reasearch. On it's own it's not a good enough reason to support the existing opening sentence. One important principle of Wikipedia is that we don't publish "the truth", we publish what the reliable sources tell us is true and where there is a significant difference of opinion we opt for a neutral point of view. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 02:29, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

It's my opinion that the suffocation of a bound prisoner with water is a form of torture, but it is also a fact (following the normal understanding of the word Torture in the English language), and also verified by all sources except the fringe opinions of a few U.S. politicians and media personalities. Please see Talk:Waterboarding/Definition. It's important that you read all prior discussion before commenting further. Fringe opinions may be discussed at Wikipedia but are not allowed to influence well-understood definitions. Badagnani (talk) 02:35, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I think that the idea that it is not torture is a relatively recent, mostly American view, and doesn't necessarily reflect a worldwide view. It seems like those arguing that it isn't torture are doing it for political cover, not because they are torture experts. Dawn Bard (talk) 02:51, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, even during the Spanish Inquisition, and afterwards by various regimes, such water tortures were preferred as somehow special or less bad, as they did not leave marks on the body as most other tortures do. Thus, the former U.S. regime was following a long tradition as regards attempts to legitimize this form of torture. Badagnani (talk) 02:57, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

(to Badagnani) I've read it. You can claim that following a normal understanding of English implies one thing, someone else could claim it implies something else. It's all original research and it's all completely irrelevant here. Fringe theories are esoteric opinions of non-notable people that receive little coverage in the mainstream secondary literature. This is a minority opinion. Also, I'm not proposing allowing this to influence the definition. I've said all along, the not torture definition should go in its own section and not be mentioned in the intro. (to Dawn) Perhaps, but this is a recently coined American term and I would guess more than 50% of RS coverage coverage is of recent American practice. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 02:58, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

WP:NPOV requires that viewpoints be represented in proportion to their prominence. The archives of this talk page list huge numbers of expert sources that tell us waterboarding is torture. The fact that one person, who's arguably an expert, said on a radio show that waterboarding isn't torture doesn't change the fact that the overwhelming weight of expert opinion is that waterboarding is torture. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:14, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I know, I agree. As I've already said, I don't want the not-torture definition to be given more prominence. I've never argued that. What I'm saying is a completely separate matter: that the torture definition should be presented in a manner consistent with NPOV. This has nothing to do with wanting to give additional prominence to minority definitions, I'm discussing how we present what we all agree must be the only definition discussed in the intro. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 03:40, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

It is entirely consistent with NPOV as it is. "A hammer is widely considered to be a tool or driving nails, but Guru Swamy calls it the easiest way to enlightenment". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't see the similarity, do you think Guru Swamy or anyone else actually disputes the mainstream definition of a hammer? Or is he somehow speaking figuratively? And is Guru Swamy a notable or reliable source on the definition of hammers? --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 18:28, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Given that I invented him for the sake of the argument, he is everything I wish him to be, of course. The simple point, as pointed out over and over again, is that waterboarding is torture and it's recognized as such by the vast majority of expert opinion. The dissenting and self-serving claims of some in the Bush government have no bearing on this, and neither does the fringe opinion of a single semi-qualified (and, btw, flip-flopping) lawyer. We report those claims as notable claims, but we do not give them undue weight. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:39, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I will just reiterate some of the points I have made above:

1. When we say "waterboarding is a form of torture" we are not making a legal conclusion under any country's law and instead we are simply using 'torture' as it is defined commonly (usually something along the lines of experiencing intense physical or mental pain). Many of the arguments put forth by the Bush administration have to deal with an argument that waterboarding did not qualify legally as "torture", but did not discuss whether waterboarding would qualify as torture as the term is commonly used.

2. Those in the Bush administration that defended the use of waterboarding as not qualifying as torture still acknowledged the following: (1) those subjected to it experience the fear or panic associated with the feeling of drowning, (2) those subjected to waterboarding as a method of interrogation have a reasonable belief that they are in fact being put to death by waterboarding or will die as a result of waterboarding. I think it is obvious that subjected someone to the experience of drowning or a false execution would qualify as torture as the term is commonly used in the English language.

3. The Bush administration's legal conclusions (which were later withdrawn by subsequent legal analysis) depend upon two conclusions, which in fact are disputed by experts:(1) waterboarding does not inflict pain and (2) that the threat of immediate death would not cause prolonged mental harm. If you disagree with either of these conclusions then even under the Bush adminsitration's analysis you would have to consider waterboarding to be torture as defined legally.

That is all. Remember (talk) 13:56, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/06/waterboard.poll/index.html Obviously, a large percentage (29% according to this poll) of the United States population believes that waterboarding is not torture. This obviously is NOT a "fringe minority opinion", and as such should be at least recognized in the article. The current definition in the beginning of the article is akin to writing that "Abortion is the murder of unborn babies" in the Abortion article. Waterboarding is an issue where there are multiple mainstream points of view, and Wikipedia requires that the article be written in NPOV, without taking sides. 173.68.190.221 (talk) 15:49, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

You are confusing popular opinion (29% of polled americans think its not torture) with what we use to write this encyclopedia which is Reliable Sources. The RS's say its torture, ALL the doctors say its torture, ALL the american armed forces JAGS say its torture, ALL human rights experts say its torture and the European court of human rights says its torture. Remember 50%+ of americans believe in UFO's and Ghosts but we don't use that view to write this encyclopedia. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 20:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Definition violation

"Waterboarding is a form of torture" is very clearly a violation of Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Words_that_label: "Such terms, even when accurate, often convey to readers an implied viewpoint."--Loodog (talk) 15:26, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

No, not at all. How does it "label a group from an outside perspective"? It accurately describes a technique, not a group. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:36, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Loodog you have not answered Iph's points right at the top of this page, why? PS Words that lable is about words like "freedom fighter" "pervert" just as it says. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 22:02, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

"Al-Qaeda suspects upon whom the CIA is known to have used waterboarding include [...]" is incorrect wording

This sentence, in the third paragraph of the article introduction, is improperly worded. This sentence says the list of suspects known to have been subjected to waterboarding includes three people. However, the CIA has only confirmed the use of waterboarding on these three people. Hence, the list of known subjects does not INCLUDE these three names, the list IS these three names. "Include" should be replaced with "are". I don't yet have the authority to make this edit, but somebody should correct the statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nickelcokes (talk • contribs) 12:09, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes and DONE. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 18:24, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Reference #1

Does anyone else think that Ref #1 is not really a reference? What does it refer to? I can't figure. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 16:49, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Its not a ref its a note, i think it should have a different format but i'm not sure. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 22:49, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

As in love note? It looks like a questionable item nonetheless. It's also a key note, and should be something more substantive. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 00:15, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I think its just an artifact of the edit wars in 2007, if no-one objects in the next few days it can be safely deleted in my opinion. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 01:35, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I object. It is a footnote that is suppose to provide substantiation to the claim that waterboarding is torture and point the reader to a fuller discussion of the topic.Remember (talk) 23:27, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes but the exact thing is said two lines later in the intro (and is sourced), there is no need for it. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 00:56, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

• Keep note per above. Badagnani (talk) 02:44, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

What does this note do? please answer my point above, this is not a vote. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 03:00, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I think it should be changed and worked into the main text somehow. It's not a reference; it's more of a parenthetical thought. Some books would have put this information in a sidebar, but I don't think there's any way to do this in Wikipedia.  —Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 06:52, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

It is in the main text already just two lines later, a point at which every claim in that "note" is clearly sourced. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 17:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Uninvolved editor here, and I have to say that the note is useless. It wastes space, isn't even a reference in the first place (why is it even listed there?), and it's clarified at length later in the article. GraYoshi2x►^talk 23:21, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

so it's already been worked into the text. someone was ahead of us on that. so what's left to do except delete it?  —Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 04:39, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Not even that i've deleted it. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 12:26, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

If the reference #1 talked about in this section is the one that is there now, then uh, it's still there. I read the referenced article and it used the word 'torture' once in the opening. The way the footnote is placed right after the word 'torture' make it seem like it is a reference which confirms the act is indeed torture (which, regardless of the opinion here is still a topic of debate) when it does nothing of the sort. The reference seems to be complete unrelated to the idea it follows. I say remove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.202.139.56 (talk) 05:40, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

you're probably looking at the wrong reference. they're automatically numbered so the first one is always #1. this diff shows what was removed.  —Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 06:21, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I believe he is talking about the Vanity Fair ref, while its an interesting source i'm not sure it should be where it is as a source to the word torture so i'm going to remove that source (its used else where in the article). PS "regardless of the opinion here is still a topic of debate)" there is no debate in the civilised world. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 13:05, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Do people think we need to add more sources to the intro or are the 12 sources that say its torture in the first paragraph enough. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 13:11, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Waterboarding in the 21st century strikes back

I believe the Coney Island waterboarding thrill ride should be deleted from this article and a see also link added for it, discuss. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 22:57, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to delete this section in 2 days now it has its own article and is mentioned in W in the 21c. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 16:59, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

RM early due to AFD on W in the 21c. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 00:16, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Grammer/Sentence Correction

Current - In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates a gag reflex almost immediately.[15] The technique does not inevitably cause lasting physical damage. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage or, ultimately, death.[4] Adverse physical consequences can start manifesting months after the event; psychological effects can last for years.[8]

Suggested - In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates a almost immediate gag reflex. Although the technique does not inevitably cause lasting physical damage, it can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, damage to brain due to oxygen deprivation, physical injuries such as broken bones due to struggle against restraints, lasting psychological damage or, ultimately, death. Adverse physical consequences can start manifesting months after the event; psychological effects can last for years. Mukesh320 (talk) 18:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)Mukesh Mittal

I agree to this change. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 01:01, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Should it be "an almost immediate gag reflex" not "a almost immediate gag reflex"? ^{(Hypnosadist)} 16:46, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:55, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

DONE. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 18:17, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Ali Soufan testimony

I propose incorporating the recent congressional testimony from FBI interrogator Ali Soufan, who testified that he personally interrogated Abu Zubaydah, and was able to get the identity of KSM and Jose Padilla *before* waterboarding was used. This contradicts the information given by John Kiriakou - his statements have been discredited by published reports that he has no firsthand knowledge of waterboarding.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/195089 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30721458/ http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/28/business/media/28abc.html?scp=1&sq=%22brian%20ross%22&st=cse Nada (talk) 21:46, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

should probably go into Waterboarding in the 21st century instead.  —Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 21:52, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok.. actually, what I want to do is reword this line about Zubaydah: "While in U.S. custody, he was waterboarded,[109] and subsequently gave a great deal of information about the 9/11 attack plot." This implies information was only extracted after Zubaydah was waterboarded, but in fact, he was giving information before he was waterboarded. Nada (talk) 21:59, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

6.3 As a political issue in confirmation hearings

Now that W in the 21C has been speedy kept, i think the next section to be removed should be 6.3 As a political issue in confirmation hearings. As this does not meet the weight/notability guidelines considering that this article covers the 400 year plus history of waterboarding. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 17:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

yes, 6.3 should be moved to the 21st century article, but do we have to do each subsection one at a time? can't we all just agree that all of 6 should be relocated?  —Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 12:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, all of 6 should be removed. Nada (talk) 05:12, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I want most of it moved, some should remain though as part of the history section. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 19:14, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

after the first statement about Eric Holder

I would like to add the following at the end of the "Torture?" section, right after the first statement about Eric Holder:

However, on May 14, 2009 Holder was forced to admit during questioning by the House Judiciary Committee that U.S. Navy Seals who are waterboarded as part of their training are not being tortured because there is no intent to inflict lasting physical or psychological harm, and that it is "intent" which determines whether or not waterboarding constitutes torture. [Source: http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=31882] Given that interrogators were under strict limits as to how long and how often a terrorist suspect could be subjected to waterboarding, and the great care that was taken to avoid permanent harm, and that the interrogators' intent was to solicit information rather than to inflict harm [cite memos recently released by the Obama administration], Holder's previous statement that "waterboarding is torture" might appear to be a self-contradiction.

I don't want to attempt to edit the article myself and risk being banned, so if one of the approved editors could insert this for me (or explain why not) I'd appreciate it. He or she should also feel free to edit the above as long as the intent (no pun intended) is not significantly altered.Doobie61 (talk) 15:51, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

articles need to be built around reliable sources, not opinion pieces and original research.  —Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 04:50, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Using "torture" as a general factual term for waterboarding is incorrect.

Toture is used in the first sentence however only later in the article is it clear this is according to a UN definition. It is fine to use the definition torture but the organization classifying it that way should be mentioned in the same sentence. "The UN....defines waterboarding as a form of torture, howevere,.... does not." Something along those lines would be much more accurate. The way this article reads it is called torture at the top and later in article it is claimed it is not torture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lazyonetoday (talk • contribs) 09:55, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

there are no reliable sources that are not fringe theories that say waterboarding is not torture.  —Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 11:20, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

So anyone who says waterboarding is not torture is a fringe theorist? How absurd! So Bush, Cheney, the GOP, etc. are all fringe theorists? This topic is a matter of debate in the political community and wikipedia should not be taking one side of the argument. It is articles like this that really hurt Wikipedia's credibility.--76.108.9.103 (talk) 09:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Bush, Cheney and the GOP may be many things, but they are not reliable sources. They also operate under a severe conflict of interests. And which GOP do you refer to? John McCain's? Colin Powell's? Richard Armitage's? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

"Bush, Cheney, the GOP, etc." could be reliable sources on some topics, but they definitely aren't be reliable sources on defining torture or interpreting the geneva conventions.  —Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 10:00, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Mancow is the latest media personality to be waterboarded. (See section below.) He changed his mind in six seconds. Do you want to join him?F (talk) 04:07, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I do not wish to join Mancow but I do wish to clarify that if the article is dealing with waterboarding in the US, with regard to whether or not waterboarding is torture, the standard should be the US legal definition of torture, not a UN statement that it is. UP2U2DO (talk) 20:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The article is not about waterboarding in the US; it has sections that are about waterboarding in the US, but this article is about waterboarding in general. And I think that the distinction between the international law definition and US law is explained well in the Legality section. Is there anything in particular that you think needs to be addressed. Dawn Bard (talk) 20:23, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

1)This article is about Waterboarding NOT waterboarding in the US.

2)The UN definition is the US legal definition of torture, as UNCAT was signed into law by Ronald Regan.

3)The only reason that this article covers so much about the US is that "certain groups" need to "legitimise" torture by playing word games. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 20:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Former Conservative Talk Host now believes Waterboarding to be torture

Here is a former member of the "its just pouring a little water on someone's face" to its "absolutely torture" in 6 seconds.[15].

Better source; http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Mancow-Takes-on-Waterboarding-and-Loses.html  ; ^{(Hypnosadist)} 02:38, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Controversy over classification of Waterboarding as torture

I updated this section yesterday to reflect the latest status on the OPR investigation into the memos on enhanced interrogation techniques, to add key info including some above regarding the debate over the nature of waterboarding, to add the recent opinions of significant Republican figures within the Bush Administration, and to correct references that were not working properly.

Here are recommended future changes to other sections of the article: (1) I believe that the section of the article on the legality of waterboarding would benefit from (a) reference to the Texas case under Governor Bush in which a sheriff was sentenced to 10 years in prison for waterboarding (cited in the material I added) and (b) the opinions of former head of the OLC Goldsmith and others within the Bush Administration also cited in the material I added, and (c) more legal analysis and the failure of the author of the memos to cite the seminal case on Presidential powers during wartime:

Yoo failed to cite the key precedent relating to a President’s war powers, Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, a 1952 Supreme Court case that addressed President Harry Truman’s order to seize steel mills that had been shut down in a labor dispute during the Korean War. Truman said the strike threatened national defense and thus justified his actions under his Article II powers in the Constitution. But the Supreme Court overturned Truman’s order, saying, “the President's power, if any, to issue the order must stem either from an act of Congress or from the Constitution itself.” Since Congress hadn’t delegated such authority to Truman, the Supreme Court ruled that Truman’s actions were unconstitutional, with an influential concurring opinion written by Justice Robert Jackson.[16]

(2) I believe that the piece should reflect the recent testimony of Ali Soufan:

Soufan said he gained valuable intelligence by using traditional non-coercive FBI interrogation techniques when questioning suspected al-Qaeda prisoners.

He said he was replaced at the insistence of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), which he said was using inexperienced contractors, not CIA operatives, to conduct interrogations.

Soufan told senators that so-called enhanced interrogation techniques were ineffective and unreliable, and "as a result harmful to our efforts to defeat al-Qaeda."

"It was one of the worst and most harmful decisions made in our efforts against al Qaeda," he said. [17]

Likesausages (talk) 13:21, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Search function for archives

I´ve noted that other articles have a searchfunction for archived discussions. I´d like to have one here, but don´t know how to add it.

--Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:18, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Added. It's a bit more involved to add a topic index, and I have no time to figure this out now. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:58, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you! --Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:03, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Abu Zubaida information is flat wrong

The information about Abu Zubaida says that waterboarding was what gained actionable intelligence. According to many sources, including the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/28/AR2009032802066.html) this is flat incorrect.

Abu Zubaida was talking BEFORE torture was applied. After that, nothing he gave was of use. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sink (talk • contribs) 17:43, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree. That information is outdated, and new information has come to light recently. Here's what another source said - [18]

According to my reporting, James Mitchell arrived at the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah [...] The FBI had agents present at the scene, and because the CIA’s interrogation team had not yet arrived, they began to interrogate Zubaydah. And what they used was classic rapport-building techniques that almost every FBI agent is trained in, which is to find common ground with the person you’re interrogating, to treat them with humanity. And, lo and behold, Zubaydah responded and talked, and not only talked, but gave them the name of the person who had been the entire master planner of 9/11: K.S.M. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, referred to as Mukhtar. He identified him. He identified Jose Padilla. In other words, there was every indicator that rapport-building techniques were completely effective.

I'll see if I can find additional sources. Dawn Bard (talk) 18:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

See the Ali Soufan testimony above. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 18:54, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I removed the following because it was not supported by the sources: "While in U.S. custody, he was waterboarded, and subsequently gave a great deal of information about the 9/11 attack plot. Such information was used by the Canadian government in seeking to uphold the "security certificate" of Mohamed Harkat."

Should something be added in its place to explicitly say that Zubaydah was cooperative before waterboarding, and useless after? Dawn Bard (talk) 19:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Larry O'Donnell cites a misleading section of this article

Larry O'Donnell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_O%27Donnell) has claimed on two talk shows that the US Army has prosecuted military people for water boarding based on this article.

The topic referred to by O'Donnell is within this article. The topic referred to has no citation, is not a NPOV and spurious even based upon the sources cited. It confuses (either deliberately or unintentionally) Water Boarding with Water cure (which is) is a form of water torture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cure.) I recommend that someone having editorial capability clean it up.

The first sentence has no citation, but says "without attribution" that water boarding was called the "water cure." There is no basis for this statement. The New Yorker article cited clearly explained what the Water cure was: "A letter by A. F. Miller, of the 32nd Volunteer Infantry Regiment, published in the Omaha World-Herald in May, 1900, told of how Miller’s unit uncovered hidden weapons by subjecting a prisoner to what he and others called the “water cure.” “Now, this is the way we give them the water cure,” he explained. 'Lay them on their backs, a man standing on each hand and each foot, then put a round stick in the mouth and pour a pail of water in the mouth and nose, and if they don’t give up pour in another pail. They swell up like toads. I’ll tell you it is a terrible torture.' "

This is clearly not the same as water boarding.

After the Spanish-American War of 1898

After the Spanish American War of 1898 in the Philippines, the US Army used waterboarding which was called the "water cure" at the time. Reports of "cruelties" from soldiers stationed in the Philippines led to Senate Hearings on US activity in the Philippines. {needs citation}

ShashNahalin (talk) 23:52, 27 May 2009 (UTC)Shash NahalinShashNahalin (talk) 23:52, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

1)Each sentence does not have to be atributed, if you look in that paragraph you will find the sources you need such as http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/02/25/080225fa_fact_kramer and http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1007/6647.html

2)The only differneces in the two practices is that the torture victim is flat not head down (a enhancement developed some time in the middle of the 20th century) and the absence of a cloth. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 00:18, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Another historical use

The article is locked, so I'm unable to add the following historical use. If someone could please add it (or something along these lines), I'd very much appreciate it:

'Against Prisoner Slaves in the South after the Civil War'

Per Douglas A. Blackmon's Slavery by Another Name, Anchor Books, at 71 (2009):

"One witness told of the use of water torture at [the] Eureka [iron-ore mine in Alabama], on convicts for whom whipping was deemed insufficient. Such prisoners were physically restrained. Then, 'water [was] poured in his face on the upper lip, and effectually stops his breathing as long as there is a constant stream.' Over the next thirty years, variations of this medieval water torture technique were repeatedly employed in southern slave labor camps, in some cases supplanting whipping as a preferred method of punishment. Many convict managers chose this terrifying method because the convict was able to more quickly recover and return to work than after a severe flogging." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.117.7.237 (talk) 18:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

here's a citation for whoever wants to add something from the book mentioned above:

{{cite book |first=Douglas A. |last=Blackmon |authorlink=Douglas A. Blackmon |title=Slavery By Another Name: The Re-Enslavement of Black Americans from the Civil War to World War II |publisher=[[Anchor Books]] |location=[[Garden City, New York]] |year=2009 |page=71 |isbn=0-385-72270-2 |oclc=232980384}}

  —Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 18:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Mancow Mueller

He is mentioned twice in the "Classification as torture" section (near beginning and near end). I´d like to remove the first one, it seems misplaced.

Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Waterboarding by UK police???

This story is just breaking --> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6466430.ece ^{(Hypnosadist)} 01:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC) BBC on the story, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8092417.stm ^{(Hypnosadist)} 14:59, 10 June 2009 (UTC)