Talk:Tsardom of Russia

While I generally like the Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages policy, creating a whole new section in our cycle of articles about Russian history should have been done after some discussion and not unilaterally.

Anyway, no sources have been presented for making this rather arbitrary division in historical periods at the year 1547. Balcer 15:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Odd sentence

I find this sentence slightly odd:

Some Western sources refer to this state as Muscovite Russia or Muscovy, although the term originally applied to its predecessor, the Grand Duchy of Moscow.

The sentence makes it seem as if there's a contradiction or a mistake somewhere in referring to Russia during that period as "Muscovy"; but I think that was what it was often called by normal English speakers, not just by "sources". The Muscovy Company was, of course, founded at the very time this usage is said to have become inapplicable; and I know that Samuel Pepys referred to Muscovy later still, in his diary of the 1660s—even to the "Tsar of Muscovy". It seems to me that the issue of what English-speaking people called Russia and what it called itself are slightly different and overlap confusingly; the English-language nomenclature lagging behind the change in political reality. I'm in favour of dropping "Muscovy" in favour of forms with "Moscow" or "Russia" from the period indicated (because it sounds antequated; we don't use words like Musselman for Muslim etc. anymore, after all—and British people would not like to be told that they came from "Londony"); but that doesn't mean it's mistaken to use "Muscovy" for that period, given the historical usage in English and in contemporary history books that necessarily use the old term.

Perhaps the sentence can be amended along the lines of: Some Western sources refer to this state as Muscovite Russia or Muscovy, the term originally applied to its predecessor, the Grand Duchy of Moscow. The removal of "although" would make a world of a difference. I'll do it if no-one objects to my comments here. qp10qp 04:28, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't object to this change. I consulted several books. Sir John Mandeville speaks about "Prussia and Russia". The Winter's Tale: "My father was the Emperor of Russia". The use of "Muscovy" actually increased in the 17th century, and Daniel Defoe uses Muscovy and Russia as synonyms in Robinson Crusoe Continued. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 11:44, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they were both used. Absolutely. qp10qp 16:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear Qp10qp, an original article called Muscovy (here as of 19 December 2006) was first moved to Grand Duchy of Moscow and subsequently split in two: Grand Duchy of Moscow and Tsardom of Russia (diff. & diff.).

The old Muscovy was thus first a redirect to Grand Duchy of Moscow (diff.), then transformed in two succesive disambiguation pages (diff. & diff.), and again redirected to Grand Duchy of Moscow (diff.).

All this was done on December 20 by User:Ghirlandajo, apparently without any previous discussion (see Talk:Grand Duchy of Moscow#Moving the article, permanent link). Personally, I'm used to see the term Muscovy used in modern English-language history books for the period until well into the 17th century (sometimes until Peter the Great).

I know, I haven't really answered your comment :-) I'm restricting myself to giving you the general picture of how this article came to be like you found it. After what this whole episode showed, I don't want to be involved in content discussions here. - Best regards, Evv 12:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I think there's room for separate articles on this period and on the earlier period, as well as one on the overall period from Daniel to Peter. This one can be regarded not so much as a fork but as a form of summary style, so long as all the articles build up interlinks to each other and don't contradict each other about the facts. Ghirlandajo may have ignored all rules, but, after all, this is The Glass Bead Game, not chess. qp10qp 16:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Tsardom of Rus

Well, I know that this term is completely unusual in English, but one has to admit that it would reflect the intention and the idea behind Царство Русское more precisely. Russia is the word for Rossiya (Россия), not for Rus (Русь). Rossiya started to be used only in 1721 and before that Rus (Русь) was the common word with Russkoye (Русское) being its adjective. Moreover the idea behind Царство Русское was to underline that it represents the "free" parts of Rus, meaning not under foreign rule (Polish or Lithuanian), since ethnic and cultural differences between Orthodox East Slavs were not yet as obvious in the 16th century. Voyevoda 23:45, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that the term of Russian is coined exclusively by Peter the Great, scewing the true name by the Germanized version derived from Ruß wich is equivalent to Russ. The Moscovite Rus makes whole lot of sense and also the Rus Tsardom as well. At that time the Moscovite Rus became the only state that was governed by the Rurikid dynasty and independent from any other state. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 03:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Maps Needed

Can anyone help ? Ammar (^Talk - ^{Don't Talk}) 18:37, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

All the Rus lands

"The name originated from the fact that it contained all of the Rus lands free of foreign states domination". This is simply not true. Right Bank Ukraine was not part of the Tsardom of Russia. Right Bank Ukraine is Rus' land. It wasn't conquered by the Russians until 1793, long after the formation of the Russian Empire. Ostap 17:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Nobody claims that Right Bank Ukraine belonged to Russia. You seem to have difficulties with English grammar. Ukraine was Rus land but was not free of foreign domination. Voyevoda (talk) 23:36, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I tried to clarify it a little. Let me know what you think. Ostap 23:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, it's probably better for those who never learned what contact clause is. Voyevoda (talk) 00:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Lack of referencing

This part jumped out at me as needing a citation...it sounds like something that would be found in a high school report :)

After just two days, he began abusing his power, killing many people. One day he and his son got into an argument, and in an act of rage he killed his son. After that he began to regret his actions. Hoping for spiritual reconciliation, he surrounded himself with mystics. They projected the day he would die. He died close to midnight on that date while playing chess. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.75.199.174 (talk) 02:53, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

The cross flag on this page?

Flag of Russia states that the first universally-recognized Russian flag was the white, blue, and red tricolor most familiar as the flag of the modern Russian Republic. The cross flag shown here isn't mentioned there; could anyone point me to more information about it? It reminds me of the Byzantine flag, and it certainly looks plausible, but I'd like to know (and see in this article and Flag of Russia) more about its context and use as opposed to the tricolor's. ExOttoyuhr (talk) 17:01, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I posted you a response below. Seryo93 (talk) 14:17, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Czardom of Russia

Czardom of Russia needs to redirect here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.102.200.171 (talk) 01:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Flag

To make it's clear, that tricolor was first all-Russian flag, i would like to post link for photo of Tsar's standard here: http://www.rossimvolika.ru/gos-simv/gos-flag/istoriya/kr-ocherk/20090921121220-8791.jpg

And please, do not put yellow flag again. It was adopted during times of the Russian Empire, not during Tsardom of Russia period. Seryo93 (talk) 13:56, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a source that states this? All you're doing is posting a link to an image of a flag and saying that it was the state flag. Lt.Specht (talk) 11:15, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

This is oldest survived Russian flag, it's stored in Central Naval Museum. Seryo93 (talk) 13:41, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Again...Does a reliable source say its the "oldest surviving flag"? And if it was even used as a civil or national flag in Russia? Lt.Specht (talk) 22:02, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Here and here (in Russian language, however). 92.100.52.29 (talk) 14:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I believe the second page states the flag was the Tsar's personal standard while in Moscow, Standard of the Tsar in Moscow, only from 1693-1700, when it was replaced. I'm not sure why this would make the flag a nationally used flag, or important enough to have it as the article's flag. The book, Yenne, Bill. Flags of the World. Chartwell Books, 1993, p32, states that the the two-headed eagle imperial flag of the Tsar dates back to 1472, and was instituted by the early Romanov's as an official civil flag, until replaced during the empire's time in 1858. Lt.Specht (talk) 21:58, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Tricolor was civil ensign since 1705, so, i've reverted imp.flag edit. Seryo93 (talk) 11:39, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Added info about both yellow Tsar's standard and civil tricolor. I think, topic closed. Seryo93 (talk) 20:27, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

A civil flag is more noteworthy than a civil merchant ensign, as with most articles, should establish a broad consensus if the civil merchant ensign is going to be used over the civil flag for the main flag. Still would need a translation to verify this source as well. Lt.Specht (talk) 03:51, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

1. There is no civil flag ever until 1914 and in 1917-2008
2. Civil ensigns are used more often (because used on generic trade ships), than military naval ensign and tsars only personal standard, and thus, it plays role of de-facto state flag when there is no official state flag.
3. there is no tsar's standard in 1472, the earliest tsar's flag is tricolor with DH-eagle in the center, so, English source is (slight) wrong.
4.Leader's standard by definition cannot be state flag or ever close to that role, like standard of the German Chancellor is not used instead of Flag of Germany
I hope, that now you understand, why civil ensign is de-facto state flag. I hope, that you now learn why i make my edits (that you reverted). Seryo93 (talk) 12:53, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The Empires article's sources do state that the black-orange-white tricolor, and the white-blue-red (alternative), were civil flags until replaced in 1914. I'm not sure if I understand your reasoning behind the civil ensign being used more often on a higher scale, seems to me that the Tsar's standards would of been used more on an official scale, atleast to me anyway. If you read the sentence containing the English source carefully, it does not state that the Tsar's standard featured on this page existed in 1472, whether it did or not I don't know, just that the origin of the flag dates back to then, such as the two-headed eagle being adopted by rulers. It seems to me that civil flags are the norm for featuring for countries main flags in articles instead of state flags, such as the Finland, Iceland, and Monaco articles. I was also reverting the edits largely because you were flat out removing the material which cited the English source, with no clear explanation as to why it should be entirely removed. As there appears to be no clear burden of proof either way on the flags, and no real consensus, perhaps the previous flag featured, the Standard of Tsar in Moscow, should be restored. Atleast until more sources can be found on this issue, anyway. Lt.Specht (talk) 22:37, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Tsar's standard is specially created for Tsar's exclusive use. It's a just royal flag, and it's used only for purpose of representing Tsar, not all Russia. Russia was represented (at Tsardom time) only by Andreevsky flag (military) and, WBR tricolor (trade and other civil ships). This is reason, but i agree, that until consensus is reached, Standard of Tsar of Moscow (as of 1692-1700) may be putted in infobox. And, black-orange-white tricolor adopted in 1858, so, during Tsardom period, the only civil ensign was tricolor. And for last, civil flag is flag, that flown by citizens, not government or ships. Until 1914 and in 1917-2008, flying Russian flag by citizens meet government sanctions and imprisoning, so there is NO civil flag in Tsardom of Russia, but civil ensign. Do not confuse them, please. Seryo93 (talk) 08:06, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

ADDITION: as we have a precedent of showing civil ensign into infobox, i've added tricolor into infobox and explained controversy behind Tsar's Imp. flag info in Flags of the World book. I hope, reasons behind tricolor in infobox finally made clear. Seryo93 (talk) 18:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Seems like the civil ensign is used on the Austria-Hungary article because there was no civil, national, or state flag which was jointly used in both the Kingdom of Hungary and the Austrian Empire. According to the source the Tsar's flag was the civil flag in this case, I've seen no English source that says otherwise. Lt.Specht (talk) 03:14, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Russian source

Per WP:RSUE, English Wikipedia prefers English-language sources to non-English ones, except where no English source of equal quality can be found that contains the relevant material, in this article's case we have one English source, that is from a published book, which partly covers the topics of flags used during the Tsardom, and another Russian source, a website. Per the policy, the English source should be preferred over the Russian source for what it covers. The Russian source would be a fine addition for anything else, as long as a translation is provided, preferably a translation published by a reliable source, per the policy. I'm not sure whats in disagreement over this policy. Lt.Specht (talk) 03:43, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Because this article covers RUSSIA, i think, RUSSIAN source is more reliable in this cases (Tsardom and Empire disputes) than english, because they (russian sources) are written by those, who born in Russia and knows it's country history more than some (not all!) English historiographers. Anyway, when i got some more time, i will translate source for verification. Seryo93 (talk) 12:42, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

In section above, i've futher explained civil ensign's importance in Russian flag history. Also, citizens of Russia, that knows it's country history, may see, that english source is somewhere wrong. (There is no Tsar's flag ever in 15th century, but your source says, that it was yellow banner with eagle in center). Seryo93 (talk) 12:55, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Russian sorces are more reliable? :) This people at least twice rewrote their history to make it look better. --Vovchyck (talk) 11:11, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

What kind of Russia in 17 century

At that time there was no Russia it was Moskovia. Only at the begining of 18 century their tsar (Petter the Great) decided that they need better history and renamed Moskovia into Russia. Even at all European maps the territory is called Moskovia and full stop. Only in 18 century in German maps apears Russia. Before that there was one name "MOSKOVIA" --Vovchyck (talk) 11:08, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Fringe theories or Ukrainian Nationalist Bullshit (UNB). These historical maps illustrate your lies:

• 
  Карта венецианского монаха Фра Мауро, 1475 г. (ориентирована с юга на север)
• 
  Carta Marina Олафа Магнуса, 1539 г.
• 
  "RVSSIA". Карта Ортелия, 1575 г.
• 
  Карта Европы, Меркатор, 1589 г. "Russia Moscouia" - Московская Русь
• 
  Карта азиатской части России, Меркатор, 1594 г.
• 
  Карта Северного полюса, Меркатор, 1623 г.
• 
  Карта Руси, Дженкинсон, 1598 г.
• 
  Карта России, в просторечии Московия (Tabla Russiae vulga Moscovia), Космография Блау, Голландия, 1645 г.

--Voyevoda (talk) 13:48, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Tsardom of Russia???

the discussion up there Talk:Tsardom_of_Russia#Tsardom_of_Rus is right on target. The word Russia was coined by Peter the Great. So why exactly is this article called "Tsardom of Russia"? After all, it's not even close to the most common name in English. The state that existed back then has been always most commonly called Muscovy.

lets WP:GOOGLE: "Tsardom of Russia" on google books About 182 results "Tsardom of Russia" on google scholar about 43

Muscovy on google books About 159,000 results Muscovy on google scholar about 20,900

how about "Tsardom of Muscovy"?

google books About 918 results google scholar about 106

So why exactly is this article called "Tsardom of Russia" if the name Russia didn't exist before Peter the Great and it's far from being the most frequently used to refer to the subject in English?--Termer (talk) 07:05, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Your claim that this name didn't exist before Peter I is clearly wrong. Россия as the hellenized form of Русь can be found in chronicles and documents already in the time of Ivan III. There is much information on the naming in the article, including historical maps with "Russia", I wonder why you didn't read it. Also, in the topic above, there are enough historical maps. You seem to have ideologic blinder on your eyes in its direct form. --Voyevoda (talk) 09:19, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. --Ghirla^-трёп- 10:59, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I do have an ideological blinder indeed, it's called WP:COMMONNAME, and that's not "Tsardom of Russia". The thing you claim Россия may have been found in chronicles and documents already in the time of Ivan III doesn't change the fact that this Tsardom has been called "of Russia" by a handful of sources out there. I mean 182 for "Tsardom of Russia" vs. 918 hits to "Tsardom of Muscovy" is quite drastic difference don't you think? So why exactly is this article called "Tsardom of Russia" again once Tsardom of Muscovy is the most frequently used?--Termer (talk) 16:54, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Actual usage of tsardom

My impression (based on a Google Books search; see a histogram) is that tsardom (or czardom) has been used in English traditionally mostly in the following two meanings:

• (a) The most comon, "rule by Tsar" (Russian: царизм - i.e., similar to "tsarism" in English). E.g., "the end of tsardom", "despotism and tsardom", "Russia from Tsardom to Bolshevism", "Russian Tsardom" in the sense of the political system of the Russian Empire)
• (b) Sometimes, "the position of a Tsar" (comparatively less common meaning of Russian: царство, parallel to English "kingship"). E.g., [anachronistically] "Rurik's election to the czardom"; "assumption of the Tsardom of Russia by the Great Prince of Moscow")

Much less common has been the meaning

• (c) A "country ruled by a tsar" (the usual meaning of Russian: царство, parallel to "kingdom"). It's not like this last meaning never appears - so it is not a "wiki neologism" - but it seems to be comparatively rare, recent, and largely confined to translations from Russian: "from which tsardom" (in a folk tale), "Kazan Tsardom and Polish Tsardom" (in a precise translation of the names of the components of Russian Empire); "Russian Tsardom / Moscow Tsardom" (in a book by a Turkish author).

When I actually try to do a Google Books search on "Tsardom of Russia", and to look at individual pages, I see that the great majority of pages where that expression happens are either clones of Wikipedia pages (thanks to parasitic "publishers" such as Alphascript), or books where "tsardom" is used in the senses of (a) or (b) above. Genuine non-Wikipedia examples of "tsardom of Russia" with the meaning (c) are few and far apart, seem to be mostly confined to precise translations of texts from Russian, or in works by Russian authors in English.

I am not saying that the expression "Russian Tsardom" or "Tsardom of Russia" is necessarily bad and ought to be abandoned in favor of either the traditional "Muscovy" or the descriptive and precise, but long, "Russian State (15xx to 17xx)", but we at least should realize that it is not (yet, at any rate) widely used by mainstream Anglo-American writers outside of Wikipedia. Now, Wikipedia is an influential reference, so maybe we will help the introduction of this expression (which, as Russkoye Tsarstvo [i Moskovskoye Gosudarstvo] is pretty standard in Russian) into the English mainstream, but I am not entirely sure that this is our role. -- Vmenkov (talk) 18:15, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Tsardom of Russia vs.Tsardom of Muscovy

Template:Rfcid it has become evident the name "Tsardom of Russia" (About 182 results) on google books come mostly from clones of Wikipedia at the time when "Tsardom of Muscovy" (About 918 results) is the most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. So why exactly is the article called Tsardom of Russia on Wikipedia?--Termer (talk) 19:01, 15 May 2011 (UTC--Voyevoda (talk) 12:32, 17 May 2011 (UTC))

1) Contrary to your claim, the word Russia was certainly NOT coined by Peter the Great.

2) The wording Tsardom of Russia has its legitimation with regard to content and original historical sources

3) It is found in scientific literature.

5) Czardom of Russia is also being used

6) For a clean comparison, one should also consider cases where Russia vs. Muscovy are being used for 1547-1721 without to add Tsardom of Czardom.

7) A similar discussion was held twice on Russian Wikipedia, but it was decided to leave "Царство Русское". --Voyevoda (talk) 19:15, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Please Voyevoda, I'm already aware of your opinion, an WP:RfC is for requesting outside input.--Termer (talk) 19:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

IMHO, there is nothing wrong with "Russia" in the name of the article, but "Tsardom" (or "Czardom", which is overall much less used as per Google Books) in the name of the state seem somewhat awkward, at least to this reader. With respect to the five points above, I fully agree with (1), have certain doubts about the correctness or relevancy of the rest:

(1) "Russia" is a legitimate word to be used as [part of] the name describing the state of the late Ryurikids or the early Romanovs, as the 16th- and 17th-century maps presented on this very discussion page (scroll up for a few screens) indicate, and as can be seen in plenty of existing modern historical literature.

(2) "Tsardom of Russia" - yes, it appears in original sources in Russian, but is none to common in English (in the sense of the name of the country/state).

(3) Uh... Russkoye Tsarstvo may be the standard term in Russian historical literature, but is it such in English? I am sure there are some historians who use this term "Tsardom of Russia" (in English) to refer to the country/state of the period, but they seem to be a very small minority (as compared to those who may say "Muscovy", "Muscovite Russia" [= Московская Русь, I guess], "Russia", "Russian state"... anything, even "Muscovite Tsardom" on a couple occasions!).

(4) Certainly, one should not not just look at the number of hits; but a look at the content of books or articles where the term is found certainly should give you an idea what terms are - or aren't - in common use. One can make any other kind of survey - pick a few scholarly journals in related fields for example, or several standard Anglo-American textbooks on Russian history. (Did George Vernadsky, for example, use "Tsardom"? I don't remember).

(5) I have no objection to "Царство Русское" in ru.wiki, as it is indeed a standard term in Russian historiography. Here we need to assess the English scholarly use.

(In a sense, I wonder sometimes to which extent this periodization, with 1547 as the break point, between the "Duchy" and the "Tsardom" is the most meaningful - I personally would view something like "Pre-Mongol Rus'", "Northeastern Russian principalities under the Mongol domination", "Muscovite Russia", "Russia of the Romanov Dynasty" as a more natural periodization - but that's a different issue, and needs real historians' input). -- Vmenkov (talk) 20:05, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

-- Vmenkov (talk) 20:05, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

• RfC Comment - Tsardom of Russia is so scarcely used in the English sources that it has no merit to be the article's title. The most frequent versions for this particular time period are "Tsardom of Muscovy" and "Muscovite Tsardom". I personally prefer the first version as it is more natural and thus more likely to be searched for and linked to. Wladthemlat (talk) 11:25, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, I said above that I can hardly find any non-Wikipedia non-translationese examples of using tsardom to mean a "country ruled by a tsar", but this isn't entirely so. A Google Books search on "Tsardom of Muscovy" actually does find quite a few bona fide examples of that usage. "Moscow Tsardom" and "Muscovite Tsardom" occur as well. Now, "Russian Tsardom" occur about as frequently, even if not more frequently, than the "Muscovite" alternatives, but with the caveat that many - probably, a majority - of these occurrences have tsardom used in the meanings that I described as (a) [tsarism, tsarist regime] and (b) [= kingship] above, and often don't refer specifically to the pre-Petrine period. Judging by the hits' content, "Tsardom of Russia" seems the worst of the four (or five) alternatives - it primarily occurs in the meanings (a) and (b), plus of course wiki-clones and occasional translations. -- Vmenkov (talk) 15:41, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Alright, but what do you suggest instead? How would you translate Царство? Judging by the contemporary language of Ivan IV, царство was equivalent to empire (Mongol or Byzantinian rulers have been also called Tsars in Russian) but the term Russian Empire is already occupied. Probably that's the reason why you criticized direct translations of state names and suggested a more "natural" division of history. However, what you have suggested has the disadvantage of ambiguity and partly redundance. For example, most of the 17st century can be assigned to both "Muscovite Russia" and "Russia under the rule of Romanovs", and there is also a crossover between early "Muscovite Russia" and "Northeastern Russian principalities under the Mongol domination". This shows that any other divisions apart from official development stages are problematic. --Voyevoda (talk) 18:31, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

As I see it, Tsardom is not a great name. However, the term "Russia" ("Russian") is the widely used term in the literature I've seen, many mentioning about so-and-so being Prince of Moscow, or whatever, and then going on to use "Russia/Russian" when internal politics are not important. However. we need an article title that demarcates that the content of this article deals with the period of 1547–1721. ("Russia" would thus not suffice alone in that regard.) So I'd suggest some term other than "Tsardom" (which, to me, is somewhat confusing since the word "tsar" is used to describe rulers up to 1917), but keep the use of the word "Russia" in the title somewhere; maybe "Pre-imperial Russia"? I do understand that terms are not likely used much outside Wikipedia, but we have a unique requirement here to provide clarity. I'd suggest, therefore, that there are actually two debates: 1) whether the state is best described as Russia or Muscovy during the 1547–1721 period; 2) where such rule is best described as a Tsardom or something else. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 09:55, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Vmenkov was actually doing google not Google Books searches as on Books the counts are following: "Russian Tsardom" - 599 hits, "Tsardom of Muscovy" - 908 hits, "Muscovite tsardom" - 944 hits. Anyhow, Tsardom of Muscovy still seems like the best shot as it is the most time-specific one of the alternatives. The rule is definitely best described as "tsarism" and to make the name as time specific as possible "Muscovy" is perfect - thus the article title would denote the close temporal proximity to pre-tsarist muscovy, but underline the difference in the governing system Wladthemlat (talk) 10:06, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

As I already wrote, this comparison of google hits is not very clean. More comprehensive and thus reliable results about which name of Russia is being used for the period 1547-1721 should include the mentionings in other contexts, for example "Muscovite army" vs. "Russian army", "Muscovite ambassador" vs. "Russian ambassador" and so on. Such comparison, precisely for the period 1547-1721, is of course very difficult to realize, but would be neccessary, in my opinion. I think, in this very specific and complex case, since the measurement of google hits are not very practicable, we should rather have a discussion with regards to the historical meaning and the factual legitimation of both names. If we do so, we will see that "Muscovy" is the result of ideology and inertness, while "Russia" has the legitimation in the official title of the Tsar and the official state name. --Voyevoda (talk) 11:43, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Basing the article title on the frequency of uses of terms like "Muscovite army" vs. "Russian army" would be WP:OR, we just have to compare which name is more frequent in the sources while keeping focus on the time period, that's all. You see, that sources would name the state Tsardom of Muscovy and then use 'Russian army' as a trope (or vice versa) is not that unlikely, but the name is what counts here. We must quote source use, not invent a suitable name per our own research. We can use more search sources (e.g. EBSCO or ProQuest, if possible) and specify the search for the given time period only, but that's about it. Wladthemlat (talk) 12:05, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

OR is certainly something different, but if you insist that army and other state attributes are something too far-fetched, it is at least obligatory to check the usage of Russia vs. Muscovy directly, without "Tsardom". The google expression "Tsardom of .." is too rare and has a too small share of the overall usage to be a basis for a decision. --Voyevoda (talk) 12:32, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

RE:Voyevoda check the usage of Russia vs. Muscovy directly? That's not necessary since in English singled out "Muscovy" (About 159,000 results on google books)can refer to "Grand Duchy of Moscow". I'm missing what's the problem with "tsardom", it's clear that "Tsardom of Muscovy" with its About 918 results on google books and about 106 on google scholar is the most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources and therefore is in compliance with WP:COMMONNAME--Termer (talk) 13:55, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that the frequency of the usage in combination with Tsardom is pretty low so that it doesn't allow to make serious decisions. You should check "Muscovy" or "Russia" not in every case, but for the period 1547-1721. --Voyevoda (talk) 20:14, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Analysis of a few books. Re: Wladthemlat: what I did was actually a Google Books search, not a general Google search; I must have truncated the URL when posting it. In any event, my focus was on how the word tsardom, and various combinations using it (Tsardom of Muscovy etc.) were used in published books, not on how many times this or that word occurred. Voyevoda asks, "Alright, but what do you suggest instead?" I have to admit that I don't have much intuition on the topic, as I don't read all that much literature on the topic. So what I did, I went to a library and looked at 4 general purpose, academic, histories of Russia, to see what terms their authors (all recognized historians in that field) actually use. Here's the report, surveying both the periodization these authors used, and their terminology. I would summarize the results as follows:

• Of all authors, only George Vernadsky used tsardom much; in fact, he has The Tsardom of Moscow, 1547-1682 as a title of his volume. However, inside the book, the word tsardom does not get that much use: it is mostly concentrated in one chapter, with the meaning varying between a realm ruled by a tsar (parallel to "kingdom") and the institution of rule by a tsar (parallel to "kingship"). When talking about the country, he mostly goes for 'Muscovy.
• For the other authors (Nicholas V. Riasanovsky, and the Cambridge team), Muscovy is the preferred term. One historian, Sergei Bogatyrev, actually explains, in the context of Ivan IV's realm, that his state received in English the established but somewhat inaccurate name of Muscovy; and, despite the inaccuracy, he keeps using it.
• What suggestions can I make based on the above?
  • I probably would be most comfortable with period divisions at ca. 1471-1480 and 1682 (as most authors do), i.e. Ivan III / formal independence from the Mongols as the starting date, and the beginning of the reign of Petr I as the end date. The article then can be simply called "Muscovy" (as I think it was before 2006). It could explain that "Muscovy"is a popular western name for the Eastern Russian state of the period, centered in Moscow. (The term "Western Russia" was at the time still commonly used for Ukraine/Byelorussia). The text would explain that the rulers were called both Great Dukes and Tsars from early on (and until pretty late), the second title becoming more official since Ivan IV. Accordingly, the state could be referred to as the Great Duchy of Moscow and Tsardom of Moscow, with "Tsardom of Russia"/"Russian Tsardom" also being a legitimate translation of an alternative Russian name for the latter.
  • Since the editors who actually developed this article chose to have an extra breakpoint at 1547 (as, after all, did esteemed G. Vernadsky), I would like to respect their choice and am not planning to start a merge debate. I would suggest following Vernadsky's titles, "Great Duchy of Moscow" and "Tsardom of Moscow", for the two article. Again, the latter article would explain and interpret "Tsardom of Russia"/"Russian Tsardom" as per above.
  • If the present split into two articles is kept, I would suggest that we follow Vernadsky and don't use the term "Tsardom of Moscow" (or any other "tsardom") all that much outside of the title of that one article. That is, inside the article one ought to talk about "Russia" or "Muscovy", and if one wants to link to this article from elsewhere, it has better be via a piped link, as in Muscovy or Muscovite Russia or even Russia when called by the context.
  • Again, if the split is kept, "Muscovy" should probably be a disambiguation page, explaining that the term has been widely applied to the entire post-Mongol pre-Petrine period of (Eastern) Russian history, and linking to both the Great Duchy and Tsardom articles.

All the above is very much IMHO, as I don't claim any expertise on the topic. I however, have tried to fairly describe the terms used by the experts in their books. -- Vmenkov (talk) 20:38, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

• RfC Comment - "Tsardom of Muscovy" is the preferred term. JPTINS3000 (talk) 16:53, 26 May 2011 (UTC)