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I suggest trimming down to the basics. The information about Altschuller should be transferred to his article. RS critiques of TRIZ need to be found. This seems to be a movement with a lot of passionate advocates; we need to be aware of such editing patterns.[[User:VsevolodKrolikov|VsevolodKrolikov]] ([[User talk:VsevolodKrolikov|talk]]) 06:34, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
I suggest trimming down to the basics. The information about Altschuller should be transferred to his article. RS critiques of TRIZ need to be found. This seems to be a movement with a lot of passionate advocates; we need to be aware of such editing patterns.[[User:VsevolodKrolikov|VsevolodKrolikov]] ([[User talk:VsevolodKrolikov|talk]]) 06:34, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

What is "unsourced stuff" to you ? What you consider to be "unsourced" is in fact references to TRIZ publications.
Ignorance of something is not a ground for starting editing articles written by the knowledgeable people.

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Comment 1

Altschuler has never been to the USA, he lived in Baku, Azerbaijan, and then moved to Petrozavodsk in Russia during the violence in the Caucasus during the breakup of the Soviet Union.

More has to be said about the actual history of the movement beyond personally Altschuler. Also, need to invite more TRIZ experts to add their 5 cents. This is a fairly divergent discipline by now, and effort has to be made to give an accurate picture of it.

Does anyone use it?

Does anyone use this technique? And more importantly, are there examples of sucessful application? All the links seems to be sellers but no happy buyer is mentioned. Pavel Vozenilek 04:22, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And when I am here: could it be explained in the first paragraph what it is? Right now it is just bunch of acronyms giving no sense to me. I found the whole article very dubious. (I am software engineer, this could be the problem :). Pavel Vozenilek 04:46, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There is sufficient examples to suggest that TRIZ has many takers around the world.

TRIZ is a sub-discipline of inter-disciplinary science of Creatology: the science of Creativity and Innovation and Altshuller is a great Creatologist(Sayed Mahdi Golestan Hashemim ,Iran Research Center for Creatology,Innovation & TRIZ :[email protected]) www.triz-journal.com/archives/2002/05/a/ TRIZ Work Recognized-Samsung Award -- AndriuZ 00:25, 2005 Apr 23 (UTC)

Some citation from well know and well regarded journal isn't available? triz-journal doesn't sound as unbiased one. Pavel Vozenilek 01:15, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You could do Your own investigation - list of clients, users of software, participants on yearly conferences, etc..:
If TRIZ is such a good idea, why isn't everyone using it?
Comments on “If TRIZ is Such a Good Idea…” --AndriuZ 04:54, 2005 May 12 (UTC)

Congreses

at Samsung

My friend worked in Samsung in Korea for an internship. He told me that everybody at Samsung is using Triz.

Evidence for the Samsung TRIZ would be helpful. AndriuZ, links to TRIZ conferences and sites that have "triz" in the domain name are clearly biased and not helpful. The Japanese site you linked to does not exist. The one valid reference there is the ThinkSmart conference. How well-known is this conference? Was TRIZ presented there as a talk, or just in the proceedings? RSpeer 03:22, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

others

In response to your points above, while not perfect, the website I have set up via the Institution of Mechanical Engineers may go some way in helping those interested in TRIZ: Institution of Mechanical Engineers TRIZ website

Article style discussion

Google search links should not be used in articles (low control over result, it looks very unprofessional). If possible, majority of external links should be one section (quite common habit on Wiki that should be kept). I would quite like to see short example of TRIZ in opening paragraph (webpages that were linked from here had a lot of these but I could misread) instead of buzzwords currently here. Pavel Vozenilek 19:57, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I'm convinced that it's used. Thanks for going to the effort, AndriuZ. I agree with the style points above, regarding how the article needs to be revised. RSpeer 23:03, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

You are welcome. It was pleasure for me. Please more specific comments for imporvement?--AndriuZ 08:15, 2005 May 11 (UTC)

Well, to be a good Wikipedia article, it has to be a good explanation on its own. It shouldn't rely so much on external links (and as Pavel said, it would be best for all external links to be in a section at the bottom).

There are also too many internal links. TRIZ is not realistically going to have that many Wiki articles (and if those articles were created, I bet they would be requested to merge into the main TRIZ article fairly quickly). Long lists of linked words don't do a lot to explain TRIZ anyway. Most of them are terms that will mean nothing to the typical reader, and even those terms with existing meanings (like "System" and "Contradiction") probably have a more specific meaning within TRIZ.

Not every piece of jargon from TRIZ needs to be mentioned, especially if the jargon is not going to be explained (like "Maxi-Problem"). The article shouldn't have to go into that level of detail; it should give an overview for people unfamiliar with the field, which someone can read and understand without having to follow any links. If it is necessary to introduce some terminology, then that terminology should be explained.

An example of a situation where TRIZ could be used, and how it would be applied, near the top of the article would be useful.

RSpeer 22:34, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks again. I'll try to "invent" new article. All TRIZ comunity tries to do the same :-)))
..as about "System" or "Contradiction" - IMHO situation on "lexics vs semantics" or Lexical semantics in the world is not so simple and efforts of Ontology to collect knowledge "in one place" are on big demand. TRIZ does not pretend to change meaning of regular worlds. One technique is explain your problem to the child - that means use no special terms. On the other side terms are very useful, because contaisn some regular meanings... Wikipedia is very handy tool to glue peaces together. But maybe extended explanation should go under Wikibooks? --AndriuZ 05:17, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
I don't think you're even using these terms correctly. Lexical semantics is a field of computer science and linguistics; I should know, because it overlaps my field of research. And Ontology is far too general of a concept to be contained within a management system. I doubt that TRIZ addresses questions such as "What is existence?" As for other terms like contradiction, I think you are using a more specific meaning of the word, but not even realizing it, because from your perspective the TRIZ meaning is the overall meaning.
Please keep in mind that you probably have a different perspective on things because you work with TRIZ so much. Though I am convinced that TRIZ is a notable concept, it is only notable in the field of management, and it should be described in that context. It is not notably connected to linguistics, philosophy, anthropology, or fields of scientific study in general.
I also think that moving your extended discussion of TRIZ to WikiBooks is a good idea.
RSpeer 17:29, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks again for Your time & kind atention. I think You think little notNPOV (regardless of Your's 500:-)), but I leave it to Your concern. As long as I care about quality over quantity of edits lets talk here about things, only related to TRIZ domain or quality of article: (1) I see no contradiction of term in TRIZ meaning of contradiction against contradiction meaning in logic or dialectics... In other words there is no special meaning of contradiction in TRIZ. (2) Ontology (computer science) is very close too general of a concept to be contained within a management issues. (3) I beleve that our differences in perspective on things could help make this article better :-)) --AndriuZ 15:31, 2005 May 15 (UTC)


Point of style: should it be "inventors'" and not "inventor's" as the system is refering to many inventors? 193.35.132.150 (talk) 20:27, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

user 205.162.133.2

Thank You for Your contribution. Could You act more in the spirit of Wikipedia next time by fixing links, providing meaningfull comments? see for more Help:Contents --AndriuZ 00:15, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Revert wars

Cool down with revert wars and discuss disagreements in the talk page, or I will block you all.

For starters, please explain me why the reference to the book by the original author of TRIZ keeps deleted? I am inclined to consider this as a malicious vandalism. `'mikka (t) 21:45, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Genady Filkovsky: Sorry for that. My mistake. That reference should've stayed. Thanks.


Michael Slocum: All I have tried to do is make the content more complete. You can see from filkovsky's message that he believes HE controls what should be used as a reference. The Altshuller book listed does NOT even contain useful TRIZ information. I may certainly add a best selling book on Innovation that highlites the TRIZ methodology. INsourcing Innovation should be included as a reference (as should the other books filkovsky deleted). filkovsky has added much material about worhtless stuff he is involved in (like the Althshuller Prize--the Altshuller Family attorney will be directing him to not use their name very soon). filkovsky is not the final arbiter concerning TRIZ. I am recognized, respected, and a proponent of the successfull practice of TRIZ. My useful additions are relevent and important. filkovsky is anti-triz--why else does he try to ruin and bias this entry????? At least allow the addition of relevent information and stop his reverts--you'll note that I have never reverted anything.

TRIZ honours

The section contains claims (including personal ones) that currently are not supported with sources and may be considered by someone as biased and even offensive. IMHO, it should be either provided with facts or rewritten in a more neutral form. Bronx 18:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks you, 205.207.66.3 (Mr. Karasik?). Provided with your links, I somewhat cleared the issue for myself and made changes trying to make it clear for others and to remove some NPOVness. I still have a question: were Zhuravleva, Flikstein et al. not granted a Master Diploma or Sertificate or both? It seems to me that in [[2]] these two forms are sometimes used interchangeably, raising some confuse. Is there a public list of masters and sertified specialsts? Bronx 12:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Possible "get rich quick" scheme

Many of the inventive principles are quite obvious. TRIZ is just out there to sell the books that provide information on problem-solving that is vague and rhetorical. Read some of Insourcing Innovation and you'll see what I mean. Whenever you think some sort of interesting epiphany about design will be written, Slocum writes about how it cannot be discussed due to intellectual property concerns or something else. Thanks for nothing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 150.135.161.73 (talk) 18:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Clause is not objective...

The version of clause about TRIZ in English essentially differs from its version in Russian. Here rules of this encyclopedia are broken all! There there was a section of " Critic TRIZ ". In it there was a referencehttp://liw1949.narod.ru/index.html. Only there there is a constructive criticism of technical version TRIZ of the sample of the last century. And here there are only for a long time out-of-date materials. You meaningly deceive the readers! 80.95.41.213 17:08, 6 May 2007 (UTC)Leonid Wullo (LIW1949)[reply]

Resolving contradictions

The following statement from the article contains a contradiction; either an inventor resolves a contradiction or they do not.

"The inventor typically does not resolve a contradiction but trades one of the contradictory parameter for another: No special inventivity is needed for that. Rather, the inventor develops some creative approach for resolving the contradiction"

I can't tell if TRIZ teaches that inventors should resolve contradictions or not but I think it is safe to say someone should resolve this one.

Fixed, check please. Bronx 10:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A useful tool

I am an Australian mechanical engineer, and have on occasion used TRIZ to help solve problems. I have found it to be a very useful tool, such that when used appropriately it suggests other avenues to explore. It is however only a tool, and people should not have unrealistic expectations of it. It will not help with every problem, nor does it always get it right. At the same time, people are wrong to unfairly criticize it, (eg. get rich quick scheme) as it has a solid technical basis and really does work. If you are in any doubt then I suggest you learn the technique (it's really not that difficult) and try applying it to your problems. Logicman1966 07:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Article intro should be modified to state that TRIZ is about technical creativity and innovation.

TRIZ is not a general method of being creative, i.e. you will not write a better symfony. TRIZ is a method for technical creativity and innovation. This should be stated in the beginning of the article. I have just read Altshullers 'Creativity as an exact science - The Theory of the Solution of Inventive Problems' (translated by Anthony Willians, ISBN 0-677-21230-5, 4th printing, 1998; Gordon and Breach Science Publishers Inc.). The book states over and over again, that its methods is for the solution of technical problems, so please make that clear in the article. Right now the article seems like a sales ploy to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.185.21.93 (talk) 17:55, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

Page sounds like an advertising. More cleanup, and on linked articles, need to be done. --Statsone 05:41, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

looks just like robinson resolution principle (1965 - source MathWorld) (logic)

Where You are removing "impossibles" (contradictions), for example: water and not water, until You have nothing left to remove (of courese sometimes it can't be done).... FIXME please 84.16.123.194 (talk) 19:10, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple issues tag

This article has a massive amount of unsourced material, and what sourcing there is, is from TRIZ advocates. It reads partly as POV for TRIZ, as well as some POV inserted against TRIZ, or reflecting what seems to be a split in the TRIZ movement. It's also not very clearly written. The lede gives the reader no particular idea of what TRIZ is, apart from something really wonderful. (I actually had to look at other sites to get a clear idea of what TRIZ meant). An anonymous IP editor recently reversed an attempt to at least get rid of the unsourced stuff, and has since added more unsourced or poorly sourced material. This isn't good. I put a message on their talkpage, but they've continued to edit since then.

I suggest trimming down to the basics. The information about Altschuller should be transferred to his article. RS critiques of TRIZ need to be found. This seems to be a movement with a lot of passionate advocates; we need to be aware of such editing patterns.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 06:34, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is "unsourced stuff" to you ? What you consider to be "unsourced" is in fact references to TRIZ publications. Ignorance of something is not a ground for starting editing articles written by the knowledgeable people.

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