Talk:She-Hulk: Attorney at Law

August 17 Release Leak

Just a heads up to let editors know that a Disney UK page showcasing some of Marvel's content lists She-Hulk as "streaming 17 August". As Forbes points out, this article doesn't include all of Marvel's Disney+ series like Moon Knight or Echo, but it should be kept in mind for future reference, in case this turns out to be true and officially announced. I don't think we should add this as official at this time, given some of these sites being incorrect. Trailblazer101 (talk) 13:57, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the foreign websites can be inaccurate, and I think this section has since been removed from the page, but we can probably expect to hear official confirmation of this soon. - adamstom97 (talk) 20:45, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Production Issues Report

Some of the more unreliable insider sites (and most recently Jeff Sneider on his podcast The Ankler) have been discussing how this series is having issues behind the scenes, and Matthew Belloni, a former editor at The Hollywood Reporter who co-founded Puck News, detailed his independent report on this in an article of Disney earnings call he was on. I used to be subscribed for Puck and restarted a 7-day free trial to look through the report myself, as only sites like ComicBookMovie have reported on this. I did manage to get an archive of the full report that we can use, and will quote the material here: So Moon Knight generated about half the initial viewership as Hawkeye, and many fans seem to dislike it intensely. I recently discussed the question of whether Marvel has a creative problem on my podcast, The Town, but even from a purely business perspective, Marvel needs to figure out how to generate Avenger-level interest from non-Avenger properties. The upcoming She-Hulk is supposedly a mess, I’ve heard (even with Mark Ruffalo in a small role), and Ms. Marvel is another big test for fans. Nobody’s saying Marvel’s TV output is in trouble, but it’s something to keep an eye on. On the other hand, Lucasfilm’s Star Wars movies might be dormant, but Obi-Wan Kenobi, with Ewan McGregor, will almost certainly be huge this May and June. Trailblazer101 (talk) 04:38, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

It's really hard to know what to believe unless one of the trades or Marvel themselves says something similar. And if the August date turns out to be true, then it doesn't seem like the production issues (if there are any) are that bad. -- Zoo (talk) 04:58, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Considering Belloni's a credible journalist and not just some reporter stating things for a third-party source, I don't believe we would need another source (or especially Marvel) to confirm this, as this is a reliable source whereas the other sites reporting on this are less than that, and Marvel doesn't always confirm production details, which is why these industry sources are helpful, especially when they are credible. A third-party source of higher credibility discussing Belloni's report would be preferred, but not necessary given the credibility of the report and Belloni. The potential August release is separate from this report, and that date still could have been delayed from something earlier due to Ms. Marvel and the production issues, but any rationale to say that the leaked release would cast doubt on this would be a stretch and WP:OR. Trailblazer101 (talk) 14:57, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

I think we could site material from Belloni, but in this instance, what is "a mess"? Is it the story? The visual effects? It's kind of a broad statement, and I don't see how we could fit it in to the article. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:44, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

From what I can gather in Belloni's report, he seems to be discussing the reported "creative problems" that he talked about on his podcast, which we could fit in but very briefly, or not at all. It really would depend on if we had more information. I do think Ruffalo's "small role" bit is relevant, but for now, the reported "mess" may be something we should keep in mind and see if anything else comes from that. Belloni's statements do seem relevant to the Phase Four article's commentary on the phase's direction with the popularity of newer non-Avengers brands and their TV output, but I'm not sure how much we can include here without reaching. Potential mock-up wording for them could be, as follows: In development, we can state Matthew Belloni, a former editor for The Hollywood Reporter, said in May 2022 that, in regards to reported creative problems, She-Hulk was "supposedly a mess". while in casting, In May 2022, Ruffalo was reported to have a "small role" in the series. Trailblazer101 (talk) 17:26, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

We'd still need something reputable to back up the "creative mess" to use Belloni. However, I think we can add the "small role" bit just and Feige officially confirmed it the next month, along with Ruffalo's involvement and the casting of Tim Roth in the series. So we can make it and Feige officially confirmed it the next month, along with Ruffalo's involvement and the casting of Tim Roth in the series.<ref name="DisneyInvestorDay" /> Ruffalo was reported to have a "small role" in the series. If there's any site talking about what Belloni said on "The Town" for the creative problem, that could get added to the Phase Four article. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:59, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

MovieWeb has an article discussing Belloni's report, as well as background info from The Ankler's Jeff Sneider about the prior reports of producion issues. It doesn't expand on what was discussed in Belloni's podcast, however. Trailblazer101 (talk) 13:59, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

We could use that for the Ruffalo bit, but yeah, it's still just generalizations about what ever issues there may or may not be. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:21, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

And I see it has been. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:25, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

The fact that Matthew Belloni uses a misconstrued argument out of context to justify claiming that Moon Knight was heavily disliked... makes it difficult to fully trust his credibility for "I've heard" rumors that aren't supported by other independent sources. He uses Hawkeye vs Moon Knight minutes watched in the first week, but intentionally leaves out the fact that Hawkeye had 2 episodes while Moon Knight had one episode and therefore it's natural for Hawkeye to be about two times Moon Knight total minutes. Hawkeye's per episode viewing is just around 7M which is about the same level as other MCU shows besides Loki. So, by painting it as big failure, it makes his argument of MCU creative problems questionable as potential bias. I'd wait for independent sources. Every production has its issues so without specifics, this isn't anything solid to go by. — Starforce¹³ 16:02, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree, there's definitely a skew CreecregofLife (talk) 16:32, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Since Belloni's podcast episode for The Town discussing Marvel's potential problems had The Ringer's Sean Fennessey as a guest where they went back-and-forth discussing the topic, there is an article from The Ringer by both of them with excerpts of their convo. I am currently working on reading through this article and pairing that info with any relevant bits from Belloni's Puck report to add to the commentary on the Phase Four article. Trailblazer101 (talk) 18:53, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

I have now added that information of their commentary to the Phase Four article, with a little bit from Belloni's report. Feel free to c/e as needed, as I'm not set on the wording and a few things can probably get cut down and reworded, but it's there now. Trailblazer101 (talk) 19:26, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

I meant to say this earlier, but Belloni's podcast (and the article) don't mention anything specific about this series, so whatever reported production issues there are are not known publicly, meaning we really have nothing notable and concrete to go off of. If anything comes from this in the future, we can add info on it, but if not, that will be just fine. Trailblazer101 (talk) 02:45, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Just a heads up, but on the series' fact sheet (via DMED), the cast list is presented as "Tatiana Maslany, Jameela Jamil, Josh Segarra, Ginger Gonzaga, Jon Bass with Renée Elise Goldsberry and Tim Roth", while it lists "Special Guest Appearances by: Mark Ruffalo, Benedict Wong". This appears to further Belloni's report. Trailblazer101 (talk) 01:43, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Still nothing concrete about the actual issues though CreecregofLife (talk) 02:28, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm well aware of that. We may not get word of the exact extent of the production issues, which is fine. Trailblazer101 (talk) 12:56, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Premise section issue

Most of the premise section is closely paraphrased from this Hollinwood Reporter article KaraLG84 (talk) 08:14, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

The source is exactly the one used for that section. Jolly1253 (talk) 08:36, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Emil Blonsky

Why don't you do an article on Emil Blonsky from the MCU? 178.216.161.103 (talk) 17:28, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

There's some content about Blonsky in The Incredible Hulk (film) and here. You can start a draft at Draft:Emil Blonsky (Marvel Cinematic Universe). – SirDot (talk) 17:53, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Please don't though. The character hasn't had enough significant appearances to warrant an article on him, and there's no indication he'll ever be the protagonist of a project. —El Millo (talk) 18:01, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

He will be one of the main characters in the She-Hulk series. Viper688 (talk) 18:09, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

That's still not enough to warrant an individual article. This would only mean the character has had two major appearances in the whole MCU. —El Millo (talk) 18:40, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Why then is there an article about Kate Bishop? That's her one major appearance in the MCU. Blonsky has two major appearances. 178.216.161.103 (talk) 18:45, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

I was not aware of this article's existence, but I think she's being considered a co-lead of the Hawkeye show, which per WP:MCUCHARACTERS would qualify her for an individual article. —El Millo (talk) 18:51, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

While she only has the one series so far, it's probably more screentime and plot relevance than a good amount get in a single movieCreecregofLife (talk) 18:57, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

After the TV series comes out, I'll create an article about Blonsky. 94.253.39.3 (talk) 19:15, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

You'll create a draft, which per WP:MCUCHARACTERS won't be an article until the character has four significant appearances or one appearance as a titular character. —El Millo (talk) 19:19, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

It seems like editors are just going to keep creating these character drafts unlikely to become articles in the forseeable future. Looking at WP:MCU/Drafts, this is getting rather ridiculous. InfiniteNexus (talk) 20:34, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree on the ridiculousness of the draft pileup. I would almost say the drafters want their work and devotion validated while not understanding the standard CreecregofLife (talk) 22:49, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Not to undermine the work of some editors, but most character drafts these days are just cut-and-paste jobs from other articles plus a bunch of plot summaries. InfiniteNexus (talk) 01:33, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

I've created one draft (Talos) and revived one (Agatha) as both will be eligible for the mainspace after Secret Invasion and House of Harkness respectively if I understand the criteria correctly. But I do agree that overall the majority of the current drafts won't be eligible for pages any time soon, if ever. -- Zoo (talk) 01:42, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

But if Blonsky is going to have one of the main roles in the TV series, why not make a separate article about him? 94.253.39.3 (talk) 05:54, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

He's not the lead character of the series even if he has a main role. He had a main role in the Hulk film as well, but he'll need two more appearances as a non-minor character, or one as the lead or co-lead, whether in a film or series, before he is eligible for a mainspace article. -- Zoo (talk) 16:43, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Main role != lead role. Blonsky would not be eligible for his own article even after She-Hulk comes out. By the way, I don't think we can say for sure Talos has a co-lead role in Secret Invasion either. Thus far there has been no evidence he will have equal screentime/importance with SLJ. InfiniteNexus (talk) 17:22, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

I think we'll only be able to tell about Talos after the whole series is released, based on how the secondary sources refer to his role. —El Millo (talk) 18:48, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

And I doubt Blonsky is Walters's only case CreecregofLife (talk) 18:49, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Will it be possible to write an article about Walters after the series? 94.253.39.3 (talk) 05:29, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes and a draft has already been started - Draft:Jennifer Walters (Marvel Cinematic Universe) -- Zoo (talk) 05:39, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Archiving

@YoungForever and Favre1fan93: Per WP:TALKCOND, discussions should only be archived when a talk page exceeds 75 KB or has numerous resolved or stale discussions. This page meets neither of those criteria... InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:37, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Three discussions may be a few, but it's not numerous in the sense of excessive CreecregofLife (talk) 03:43, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

I also agreed, but at this point, the "genie was out of the bottle" so to speak. I don't know why YoungForever started archiving in the first place, but I don't think we should be doing that moving forward. I set up the autoarchiving so that will happen in time. I set it to 100 days old, but we can make that much higher if needed until the size gets up there. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:46, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

I was archiving stale discussions that were more than 6 months old. I didn't know it was a big problem given they were stale discussions. — YoungForever^(talk) 04:18, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

This page and /Archive 1 combined are still far from 75 KB, and I wouldn't call three discussions "numerous". But like Favre said: what's happened, happened (kudos to you if you understood that reference), so just take this as advice not to do that again. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:15, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Look, I understand TALKCOND and what Favre1fan93 is saying. No need to repeat what he said. — YoungForever^(talk) 05:27, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Why Smart Hulk?

Unless he is called like that in the series, I don't think he should be named Smart Hulk in the cast section for now (even if it's coming from the Marvel.com article about the trailer) AxGRvS (talk) 18:44, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

You just answered your own question. It’s a reliable source calling him such CreecregofLife (talk) 19:26, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

My point is he has never been called like that so unless he is called "Smart Hulk" in the series, we should simply have it as Hulk. AxGRvS (talk) 20:22, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

But he has been called that. CreecregofLife (talk) 20:55, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Where? In which movie or series? That's what I am talking about, this is like when Wanda Maximoff was called Scarlet Witch in promotional material but never in media until WandaVision, or more recently, the character of Layla in Moon Knight being called Scarlet Scarab by a Marvel.com article when she is never called like that in the actual show. So, my opinion is that unless Hulk ends up being called Smart Hulk in the series, we shouldn't add that alias in the cast section. AxGRvS (talk) 23:06, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

You’re discarding non-Film/TV sources despite their validity and then asking specifically for movies and series? CreecregofLife (talk) 23:41, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Look, it's not too hard to understand my point. So far, the character has never been called "Smart Hulk" in any film or series, just like Wanda Maximoff who was never called Scarlet Witch until WandaVision or Layla who was never called Scarlet Scarab. And yeah, there were Marvel articles and promotional material calling these two by those alias, but they were never actually called like that in the movies or shows (in the case of Wanda, I'm obviously talking about media prior to WandaVision). Just like Hulk. So, again, why don't wait until the series to see if they actually call him "Smart Hulk" and not just follow one article? AxGRvS (talk) 04:20, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Marvel.com usually mirrors the end credits of series, so this is fine. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:46, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Not really, look at the example of Layla and her Scarlet Scarab alias AxGRvS (talk) 21:26, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

He said "usually". A single contradicting example doesn't compromise the statement CreecregofLife (talk) 22:14, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Ruffalo and Wong

Based on this edit, it appears that Ruffalo and Wong will appear in a cameo appearance? 2A00:1FA0:4496:888C:0:69:C654:2901 (talk) 14:20, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes. CreecregofLife (talk) 14:26, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Special guest appearance and a cameo aren't the same. —El Millo (talk) 14:30, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

All it means is they aren't part of the main cast, but it doesn't determine how big or small their roles are in the series. -- Zoo (talk) 14:32, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

What about Tim Roth? 178.216.161.120 (talk) 14:39, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Roth is listed as part of the main cast on the Disney fact sheet. — SirDot (talk) 16:03, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

So it turns out that Abomination will show up more often than the Hulk? 178.216.161.120 (talk) 16:19, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

"Special Guest Appearance" could mean Ruffalo as Hulk for an episode or two, best to see when the show premieres. — SirDot (talk) 16:28, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Right right, I should’ve been more straightforward than running on assumed conflation CreecregofLife (talk) 18:25, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

"Special Guest Appearance" still means they'll appear in the opening credits and will be considered a bulleted cast member. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:01, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Ah true. The John Constantine Legends of Tomorrow way CreecregofLife (talk) 04:45, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Linda Cardellini was credited as such on Hawkeye and we made no special distinction there. Same will apply here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:41, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Absolutely the right move CreecregofLife (talk) 17:45, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Better Call Saul

Just wondering if we have a source for Bob Odenkirk appearing as Saul Goodman? Or if perhaps someone’s having a laugh Jekrox (talk) 02:15, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

The editor has been warned about vandalising the article. - adamstom97 (talk) 08:21, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

It would be best to revert anything out of the ordinary on sight without discussion. If it looks like vandalism it usually is. 2A00:23C8:5228:1601:64A2:62C:6721:B1A (talk) 17:51, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Maybe it doesn’t make any sense when I remove the actor’s name and I saw it and someone removed it causing an edit war. PhampH102 (talk) 15:05, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Matador, Man-Bull, and the Magician

Can we use this source yet? BOZ (talk) 21:05, 27 July 2022 (UTC)