Talk:Pretendian

Sourcing and notability

@AntiRaceshifitng: anyone added to the list of Pretendians needs to

• 1. Be notable enough to have their own Wikipedia bio so their name is blue-linked, and
• 2. have multiple WP:RS citations sourcing the fact that they have been called pretendians in multiple, reliable, third-party sources. If this is not done, the article may be threatened with deletion. WP policy must be followed here; no exceptions. Thanks. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 00:05, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

@AntiRaceshifitng: There needs to be much more context in this article. For example, there has been much discussion of the Keeler list, and not all positive. Because it's an unpublished document circulated primary in social media, much of the discussion cannot be cited in Wikipedia. Better would be a good discussion of the support and critiques with appropriate references. In general this article needs much work to ensure it's not simply a "gotcha" list of people with questionable claims, but a solid, well-researched balanced article on the term "Pretendian". I'm going to add some flags to this article, but as above there are issues with sources and I am deeply uncomfortable with the way this article reads and is structured as support the comments above. --Smallison (talk) 16:08, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@Smallison: Please do not ping me for edits or contributions I have not made. I incorrectly added a recently accused person (which was removed) to the Academic section of Notable Examples who lacks a wikipedia page and can not be included per point 1. from CorbieVreccan.

@AntiRaceshifitng: Apologies for that. I will shift some of my criticisms of the article to a new general section.

No information on the source of the term Pretendian

There is no information on this page about the rise of the term Pretendian or reason for the use of this term. This needs to be rectified given the title for the page. It concerns me that the act of taking on an Indigenous identity might not be new, but the term itself is a new phenomenon and there's nothing here about it or race shifting as a term. --Smallison (talk) 16:25, 12 July 2021 (UTC).

I cannot find a specific origin point for the word. It would be good to add such etymological evidence if you can locate it. Vizjim (talk) 11:17, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Fortunately, Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Yuchitown (talk) 13:44, 13 July 2021 (UTC)Yuchitown

Oh, absolutely. It's not essential, but it'd be a nice addition. Vizjim (talk) 07:47, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

There is choice of terms: playing Indian, ethnic fraud, raceshiting, or pretendian. It would be helpful to include a definition/rationale or evidence about usage as I don't think this is a term that is very well known to the general public. The point of an encyclopedia is to help people understand the topic and the article so far mostly talks about people who practice or practised ethnic fraud, not much about the term. I haven't done the research on the term yet (haven't had time), but it strikes me that it's very new. It would be good to note what the changes are given the articles stretches back quite far in time. --Smallison (talk) 02:50, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Keeler Pretendian list

There has been much discussion of the Keeler list on social media and not all positive. Because it's an unpublished document circulated primary in social media, much of the discussion cannot be cited in Wikipedia. It needs to be balanced as a particular action taken by Keeler with a good discussion of the support and critiques with appropriate references.

It is published and cited in the references as cite 12. The Alleged Pretendians List is at the bottom to download and view.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 17:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

My main point was that there wasn't any context around it and there have been critiques, not about accessibility of the document as a google spreadsheet. Typically such a document would not meet reliable source criteria on Wikipedia.--Smallison (talk) 20:48, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

We're not using it as a reliable source to "add" someone to this page. The context around it being mentioned is her activism work as it is widely discussed around this topic. It doesn't matter if people on social media review her work as "not all positive" because this topic is going to be controversial and "not all positive".  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 21:19, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Who is "we" in this case? There is no connection between her list and making a case for the "Pretenian" page. No context was given. The spreadsheet is listed a reference/citation, not a resource.The link to the spreadsheet should not be listed a reference or citation because it is not a citation, just as we don't point to a book listing at a publisher's website when writing about a book. A citation would be a book review. Original work is not to be used a citation. Having Keeler's work as listed as a citation is incorrect. If she is an expert and her work is important you should be citing secondary sources discussing her work, not just posting a link to a google spreadsheet. This is especially important when you have a controversial topic. Help:Referencing for beginners Note: Self-published media, where the author and publisher are the same, including newsletters, personal websites, books, patents, open wikis, personal or group blogs, and tweets, are usually not acceptable as sources. The general exception is where the author is an established expert with a previous record of third-party publications on a topic; in this case, their self-published work may be considered reliable for that topic (but not other topics). Even then, third-party publications are still preferable. --Smallison (talk) 00:49, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Your issue with self-published work applies to the sources you added.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 08:17, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Remove Notable Examples list

I think the list of notable examples should be removed in favour of a narrative to give context to this list. I agree with that these lists are do not enhance the article and require readers go and figure out why they are there.It's frankly lazy. Better, for example, would be a short section on specific controversies with individuals the specific connections to ethnic fraud to support that this article is notable. Including a list also invites people to add without much work and may lead to more maintenance work. @Drmies: @Oncamera: --Smallison (talk) 02:45, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Personally, think it's less maintenance work with a list and cited sources versus writing the ideal narrative unless one has the free time to do so. This article isn't very old so the list was better than nothing. If you have the free time, please write the list into a narrative. However, I completely disagree with blanking the section out of even more laziness than creating the list vs narrative.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 04:40, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Oncamera, I've been thinking about this overnight and I came to the same kind of conclusion that Smallison did. A narrative, likely a chronological one, in which these names appear if they really are relevant, that is the solution. And no, blanking is not an act of laziness: the list is severely problematic and not very well sourced. Listing is also a way of suggesting all cases are the same--as if the claims of Rachel Dolezal or Iron Eyes Cody and Elizabeth Warren are identical. Drmies (talk) 13:12, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not against the narrative, it's the ideal thing to do. Blanking a section is not.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 14:11, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

If it is a BLP violation, then it is the right thing to do. Drmies (talk) 14:19, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Icecube77, Oncamera, Gina Adams really needs work. It can't be that a "controversy" gets her listed here, when the article itself has nothing on it. Oncamera, here is an opportunity to really improve Wikipedia. I still think the list, as a list, should go. Drmies (talk) 14:35, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

The list should be developed into the narrative.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 14:44, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Articles throughout Wikipedia have accompanying lists. As long as everything is cited, it should be fine. The commonality between the individuals listed is they are are non-Native who currently or in the past have claimed to be Native American (Elizabeth Warren is main one who stopped and apologized to tribes). This happens all the time, is widely documented, and yet non-Native people seem to have such difficulty discussing the concept. I don't understand that. Yuchitown (talk) 18:52, 19 July 2021 (UTC)Yuchitown.

One of the issues with the list and the article overall isn't the fact that these individuals are listed incorrectly as being non-native (I have no problem asserting this fact, but that people outside the native community are not as familiar with this issue, this will be especially true for people outside North America. The point is not about whether this is a real problem or not, but ensuring the article can be understood by people with little knowledge of what it means. List of "people from this town" or "people who graduated from this university" is not nearly as complex an issue. Each of these individuals used their claims in different ways. And we also need to be aware that different native communities define membership differently, with (colonial) federal governments having a heavy hand. It would not be terrible for there to be an effort to provide context. Smallison (talk) 20:18, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

I believe a list is useful, but that the idea of giving contextualizing information is also good. I've done the first section. If everyone is happy with this solution, I'll go on to do the rest later this week. Vizjim (talk) 08:40, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Would it be beneficial to include (notable) organizations somewhere on this page that lack historical attestation or issue "identification" without proper procedures. I posted this here because I envision it to also be a list with context. I think someone earlier mentioned membership definitions should be discussed somewhere on this page too. --AntiRaceshifitng (talk) 00:09, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

That might be off topic. There is List of unrecognized tribes in the United States. Do you think it's necessary to start a similar list for Canadian entities or what organizations were you considering?

Essentially organizations that validate or support Pretendians. These do not include valid unrecognized tribes or non-status groups that have historical attestation through documentation or by other means. I am not sure if I am allowed to link examples but any group of people who started a new "tribe" or "nation" in the late 20th century that issues identification and pushes members to use it for monetary or professional gains would be an example. Usually membership criteria is loose and can accept someone with one ancestor from four centuries ago. I think this section could open up discussion about membership criteria and what being indigenous is from the perspective of recognized tribes, nations, band governments, etc. --AntiRaceshifitng (talk) 00:33, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

This is a list about the phenomenon of the Pretenindian, I think adding organizations starts to muddy the article subject and isn't appropriate here. Better would be an article on such organizations, such as unrecognized Indigenous nations(???) in Canada.Smallison (talk) 18:43, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Just FYI, calling a fraudulent group an "unrecognized Indigenous nation" is making a statement that it is Indigenous and it is a nation, when both are demonstratively untrue. Such terminology just backs up their spurious claims. Yuchitown (talk) 15:25, 22 July 2021 (UTC)Yuchitown

As Leroux and others have put forth (and it's honestly very obvious), fake tribes and organizations essentially manufacture pretendians. If you belong to a pretend Indigenous org you're a pretendian. These groups are absolutely part of the phenomena of pretendianism and raceshifting. These folks don't just magically appear out of nowhere.Indigenous girl (talk) 23:00, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Exactly this ^ . These are not Indigenous nations that are just unrecognized. They are organizations pretending to be Indigenous to assert "rights" or receive monetary gains for their members. AntiRaceshifitng (talk) 02:01, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Please see this AntiRaceshifitng (talk) 02:23, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

The overwhelming majority of List of unrecognized tribes in the United States are completely illegitimate. Unfortunately, a precious few legitimate groups (groups that are enrolled in other tribes, legitimate California tribes) are part of that list. You could probably create a Canadian version of the list or mention names of faux groups to the prose of this article. Of course, Wikipedia needs secondary published sources, so it's more important to get this information published in articles and books. Luckily, Leroux's Distorted Descent: White Claims to Indigenous Identity is a solid resource that can be cited here. Yuchitown (talk) 15:23, 22 July 2021 (UTC)Yuchitown

I understand the different between fake/illegitimate and unrecognized and I absolutely do not support illegitimate tribes or nations, though I do believe the situation and context of the "unenrolled" is different in Canada where I am located. And I think it is important to note the international context of Wikipedia. This article is very focused on a particular segment of North America. Further, I know Leroux's work, but that doesn't mean proof based on his website should hinge on his website and his work alone.Smallison (talk) 19:38, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Capitalized or lowercase?

In mid-sentence, should this be Pretendian or pretendian? I found both in the article. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:10, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

I would think capitalized, since it's a word based off "Indian".  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 18:14, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

I think I agree, as it's a pseudo cultural identity, and the names of cultural identities are typically capitalized. What about pretendianism? (Or can we just avoid using that term?) —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:45, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

yeah, I think avoiding "pretendianism" would be ideal.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 19:56, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

I found it lowercased in

• this article and this article in Vancouver Sun
• this article in Vice
• this article in Aboriginal Peoples' Television Network
• this article in Substack.com
• this article] in The Ringer
• this article in ET Canada

and uppercased in

• this article in AzCentral
• this article in National Post

This is just a beginning, so I don't know for sure what's more common, but lowercase is looking more popular at first glance. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:52, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

If it's not settled either way, then lower case would seem the better bet. Unfamiliar terms tend to get capitalized or put in quotation marks by reporters/writers new to working with them. Vizjim (talk) 05:37, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, Wikipedia guidelines say that when the sources are mixed, we should generally use lowercase. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:28, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

I did a little digging to see what I could find - and it wasn't much. I am not seeing any usage outside the press. I tried looking at a number of the books cited in the article. It is pretty much a term coined by the press. I think that the sample of the sources is telling us to lowercase per the guideline. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 00:39, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Use lower case since the sources are inconsistent. There's nothing special about this case.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:05, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 21 December 2021

Pretendian → False claims of Native American identity – The term "pretendian" is a neologism and is not recognizable to many readers. Arguably, as a derogatory term it also falls foul of WP:POVTITLE. Many of the cited sources don't even mention the word "pretendian", suggesting that it is not the most common way of referring to this topic. The proposed title also better matches the article content, as it's not about the people who wrongly claim to be Native American but the false claims themselves. Furthermore, the article currently covers both mistaken beliefs of Native American ancestry as well as deliberate lies. An alternative option is the more recognizable non-abbreviated form of this word, "pretend Indian". (t · c) buidhe 04:45, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - I don't know what sources you're looking at, but Pretendian is the term used in many of the sources, even in the titles of the articles. The article is entirely about the long history of pretendians, motivations and includes a list of people who fall into this category. If you replace pretendian with "false claims of Native American identity" throughout the article, it's difficult to read; showing that it's indeed about the people who are pretendians and how they create a career for themselves. It's not about "False claims of Native American identity" because anyone can do that, a pretendian is one who does it for financial or political gain. Considering that it's modern problem and by that nature, will be considered a "neologism" so that's no reason to change the title either. If the page must be moved, I suggest "fraudulent claims of Native American identity" since it's a form of ethnic fraud, not just ethnic falsehood.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 05:31, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

  The article states that it's not a new phenomenon, for example the first non-lead sentence is "Historian Philip J. Deloria has noted that European Americans "playing Indian" is a phenomenon that stretches back at least as far as the Boston Tea Party". Deloria's book on the subject does not use the word "pretendian". If the article is not supposed to include non-fraudulent cases, then there is some serious pruning to do and a strong case to merge the rest of the content into Racial misrepresentation. (t · c) buidhe 05:39, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

  Those books you mentioned were written prior to the 2000s when the term became more into use. Playing Indian is connected but not the same thing as modern pretendians; that history is there to an evolutionary view of where the concept started. When you read the 2000s: Contemporary controversies, that is when the fraudulent claims became less about wishing to be part of a Native tribe because of their culture and connections to the land and more about financial gain, which is the motivation of the claims behind most of the people included in the list of pretendians. The article Racial misrepresentation isn't about Native Americans, which is the content you suggest removing. Also, this article isn't long enough to break into a separate article on False claims of Native American identity. If you google "False claims of Native American identity" this page is the first thing that comes up, so people will be able to find this topic under the current name despite your claims otherwise.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 06:44, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

  Racial misrepresentation arguably shouldn't even include pretendians, as Indigenous identity is not racial. All the content there is already covered in Passing (racial identity). I'm not sure why it even exists. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:33, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Just because a phenomenon pre-dates the use of a specific word to describe it, that does not invalidate discussion of that history using that term. There is no difference between Deloria's term "playing Indian" and "pretendianism," but it makes sense to use the current term not the historical one, just as we have an article on Hypnotism rather than mesmerism. This article cannot be merged with Racial misrepresentation because Indigenous Americans nations are not "races," but rather sovereign nations with a specific legal status. None of the people listed are there because of "mistaken beliefs" - some are conscious frauds, and others are listed because even after they were made aware of the facts of their genealogy, they continued to claim either tribal membership or descent status without being entitled to do so.Vizjim (talk) 06:35, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Pretendianism is very specific. It's not the same as random folks with blood myths. It is very precise and very calculated resulting in some sort of gain for the pretendian. This in turn has negative effects on members of Indian Country, for example, pretendians in academia or government roles, take job opportunities away from actual Indigenous people. Indigenous girl (talk) 16:17, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. The term is widely used in publish literature. The term and phenomenon are also widespread in Canada, and OP suggested name uses "Native American," which is not used to describe Indigenous peoples in Canada. User:Vizjim is completely correct that this is not a discussion of race or ethnicity. Yuchitown (talk) 17:08, 21 December 2021 (UTC)Yuchitown
• Oppose per Oncamera, Vizjim, Indigenous girl, and Yuchitown. The inline sources use "Pretendian". The title is concise and easy to understand. The proposed alternative is too wordy, does not adequately cover the scope of the issue, and is WP:OR. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:25, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
• Support. I have read several discussions of this topic and this is the first time I've ever seen the word "Pretendian". Some of the "oppose" votes seem to be conflating the issue of "is this a notable topic" (yes, of course) and "what is the best term for this topic's article title." Apparently there are sources that use Pretendian per Oncamera, but I'm not convinced it's anywhere close to a majority, so this neologism shouldn't be privileged over a neutral description. SnowFire (talk) 01:40, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

It might be worth checking out the view counter on this talk page. This page is being found under this name tens and sometimes hundreds of times a day. Editors suggesting the term is not in contemporary use need to provide substantive evidence, not personal feelings. Vizjim (talk) 16:03, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

• Articles with high page hits are moved, too - they're found by internal links or search engines which can smooth over an obscure title. buidhe has already pointed out above that one of the major books cited by this article doesn't use the term. The reason I didn't provide substantial evidence is because reverse whack-a-mole is impossible - I can list 10 works that don't use "Pretendian" while discussing false claims of Indian identity, and that means very little. But have this to chew on: Google NGrams returns NOTHING for Pretendian. That's right, nothing. I don't think that's a bug - as I said before, I've read books that discuss this topic, and this is the first time I've ever seen this term. Several of the books cited in "Further Reading" in this article don't appear to use the term either. Ergo, this term is far more obscure than is being claimed above. SnowFire (talk) 17:02, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

The more straightforward Google Books search yields numerous results for "pretendian" (you do have to screen out Spanish language results, since pretendian means "to pretend"). A general Google search yields 336,000 results. Meanwhile, the suggested alternative "False claims of Native American identity" yields three hits on the entire internet, two of which being this conversation. Yuchitown (talk) 18:34, 22 December 2021 (UTC)Yuchitown

The only arguments I see here in support of a move are based in Original Research, not terms used in the article, so are against policy. The other argument is based in a personal lack of familiarity with the topic. Buidhe and SnowFire, if you go to articles on medical topics, you will find terms you've never heard of. Will you suggest moving Diabetes to Thirsty a lot? Or Glaucoma to WTF is wrong with my eyes? That's the type of rationale I'm seeing here.

Anyone who reads any literature on diabetes knows it is called "diabetes". That would be an appropriate analogy if I was lying about having read literature on the of topic of faux Indians. However, I'm not, and I stand by what I said before: I've never seen this phrase, so it's obviously not as common a term as "diabetes". Cobb's 2020 "The Great Oklahoma Swindle" calls it "the Tribe of the Wannabees" for the most recent example I read. I'd bring up earlier examples but you'd dismiss them as from pre-2000 literature since it seems clear that this is a fairly recent neologism, but those old sources count for something too - no need to hop on every fad term. SnowFire (talk) 23:35, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

I haven't weighed in yet on the AFD for Buidhe's Racial misrepresentation article (which is more of a list, culled from actual articles), but I'm tempted to say delete and redirect to Passing (racial identity) as Buidhe has pretty much indicated that the stub/listicle is there as a placeholder where they want to eventually to move this article. As people have explained, Indigenous identity is based in citizenship, not mainstream ideas of race. Additionally, this article covers more Indigenous/Indian identities than just Native Americans. While I understand the intent with the Racial misrepresentation article, it's potentially very misleading and possibly harmful to list pretendians in that article. I think the topic is probably handled with more context and nuance at the articles you took all the examples and sourcing from to make that blunt tool - this one and Passing (racial identity). - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:22, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

• @Yuchitown: Your Google Books search is also evidence for a move. Of the top five relevant hits, four are a novel, a book of humor, a book of poems, and a life guide/ self-hope book. The only one that appears to be a nonfiction take on the phenomenon - i.e. what this Wikipedia article is about - is Deloria's book, which was discussed by buidhe above and does not appear to use the term much and uses "Playing Indian" instead. On page 2, there's Native American DNA Tribal Belonging and the False Promise of Genetic Science, which apparently uses Pretendian somewhere but not in the Google Books preview section - but there's very little evidence that it's the term the author usually uses, more likely was just mentioned once in passing. We're talking about "maybe used in passing in two nonfiction books". This term exists, sure, but this is hardly evidence of a WP:COMMONNAME. SnowFire (talk) 23:35, 22 December 2021 (UTC)