Talk:Pope Leo X

"Sale" of Indulgences

I think there should be some consideration to the language used here. There was never any "selling" of an indulgence, but rather, the indulgence was tied to almsgiving. Taking the story of St. Peter's Basilica, a citizen would donate the money for the building of the church, much like the way "offering" money is used in churches today. This is where the indulgence comes in, as I understand it. The pope did not scribble "no hell for you" on a piece of paper and collect money from its citizens. That would be selling and was never taught by the Catholic church, not to mention that indulgences have nothing to do with hell. I would be happy to create a section on this within the biography for clarification and leave the word "sale" at the beginning. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.220.51.7 (talk) 05:55, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I worry that there is a bit of semantics here. There was obviously an 'exchange' of some sorts going on - those that gave alms believed they were getting something in return ie a passport out of hell or fast-track through purgatory... In any case this is no place to go into the issue of indulgences so best to leave the detail to that article and stick to the basic biographical stuff here. Contaldo80 (talk) 12:29, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Pagan art

The essential paganism of the Renaissance art and literature was not then perceived; and even now that is fully understood the prestige which Leo gave the church remains but little impaired. The hostility of the Renaissance to Catholicism has been unanswerably shown by Catholic writers themselves, but the popular imagination only notes that Raphael and Michelangelo wrought in the name of religion, and at the bidding of a pope. However severely then Leo may be judged from the strictly sacerdotal point of view, sacerdotalism itslef cannot deny its obligations to him; while, from the point of view of liberal culture, he appears as near perfect in his ecclesiastical character as that character admits.

I cut out this section, the statements of the author are pretty dubious. Arguements can be made for what the author is stating, but they should certainly not be considered unquestioned facts. -SimonP

The definition, however, and the recall of paganism, are not new. It is mostly connected with the depiction of naked bodies, so a matter of sexual morality. The frequent mythological themes are only (or mainly) evaluated as classical (or neoclassical) inspirations.

About sex, we should note that it is with Giotto that the first genitals appear in a fresco, centuries after classic art. Rinascimento (Renaissance) collected what popularly was changing in moral costumes, with a decreased presence of God, of catholic modesty in everyday life, a more laical life. This is not at all a contraposition of Renaissance artists and the Church. It is only the fact that some artists celebrated the religion this time with naked bodies, nearer to popular as well as to more cultivated comprehension (Michelangelo caused most of this scandal with Sixtine Chapel, in the most important church of Christianity). "Paganism" is therefore only a derogatory expression mainly used for propaganda purposes (and sometimes developed too) by the supporters of Controriforma, the ones who really were hostile to some precise aspects of Renaissance. I am indeed in the perhaps limited point of view of the "popular imagination", having no proofs of what was (correctly, IMHO) removed. I only record that Renaissance was really repeatedly financed by the Church. Also, I am thinking of Beato Angelico...

The article however still should need some revision and perhaps NPOVed a little. Gianfranco

Cryptic cleanup

I have no idea what this statement means: "[He] was the only pope who has bestowed his own name upon his age." Kent Wang 07:32, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think it refers to Medici, but that is pretty cryptic. Dominick 15:42, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"The Age of Leo X" a 19th century title-- but the article concerns boys popping out of puddings and doesn't mention humanist writers, urban works in Rome,Raphael etc.Wetman 15:46, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

LorEnzO.... LEO was probably his nickname. During a papacy, it is always "the age of_____", and he used his own name or nickname.

This sentence was translated in Italian page and I made the same question.. I think it should be removed.. By the way the era of Leo was 8 year "only"...--Sailko 17:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Source material work

I added the link to the actual letter from his father replacing the wiki entry to letter since that isn't in support of the article. I know there are other places where the choice of wikification is odd, like indulgences instead of a link to the 95. I am not a good cadidate for Martin Luther NPOV articles, since my personal PoV thinks little of Luther. Dominick 15:42, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Boy in pudding sources

I cant find a source for the boys jumping out of pudding, or the massive hemmeroid story. I think it is a legend, probably an ancient creation. If someone wants to look too, perhaps we can find SOME factual basis. Dominick 15:02, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Pleasure loving pope?

I watched a documentary about Martin Luther and Pope Leo X on PBS the other night. It mentioned that Pope Leo X "loved the pleasures of the flesh" and that at his frequent sumptuous feasts there would always be a "large cake, from which naked boys would emerge." Has anyone heard any substantiation on that claim? Granted, whether there is evidence for such a thing or not it would be debated.

The documentary also said that in order to refill the church coffers, that he had emptied in his lavish lifestyle (apparently they were building St. Peter's basilica at that point, so they needed money), he issued "indulgences". An odd thing that this documentary claimed was that "it was said of these indulgences that they would forgive even the sin of having sex with the Virgin Mary, if that were possible."

I guess my question is basically this: are the above issues mentioned by that documentary things that are well known about Pope Leo X, and generally accepted, or was the documentary stating fringe-type poorly accepted accusations as fact? It presented the above statements without any reference to the sources, nor did they give any room for the possibility they are untrue...hence I figure they've either got to be well known, or too obscure to support. If it's the latter, I would question everything they said. If it is the former...then I would be less inclined to be skeptical about the entirety of the program. Thanks for any responses. 18:30, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't know enough to say, but I'd have guessed by the period he lived some allegations were likely exaggerated. The Reformation generally wanted the Popes of the Sixteenth century to look way worse than reality. However looking him up I'd say exaggerated doesn't mean without basis. The Catholic Encyclopedia, which usually looks on the positive on Popes, even states things like the following: "Though temperate himself, he loved to give banquets and expensive entertainments, accompanied by revelry and carousing; and notwithstanding his indolence he had a strong passion for the chase, which he conducted every year on the largest scale", "The papal palace became a theatre and the pope did not hesitate to attend such improper plays as the immoral 'Calendra' by Bibbiena and Ariosto's indecent 'Suppositi'", and "Various doubtful and reprehensible methods were resorted to for raising money. He created new offices and dignities, and the most exalted places were put up for sale. Jubilees and indulgences were degraded almost entirely into financial transactions, yet without avail, as the treasury was ruined." Although they indicate his piety was genuine and that he did believe in Christianity.(Some indicate he deemed Christ a myth that benefitted him financially) Still it sounds like it is nicely trying to say he had parties where kinky stuff went on, although likely a more normal adult-concensual homo/hetero way, but that he personally didn't take part.--T. Anthony 02:33, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

He did not inhale. PiCo (talk) 01:23, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

An odd thing that this documentary claimed was that "it was said of these indulgences that they would forgive even the sin of having sex with the Virgin Mary, if that were possible."

The documentary in question is PBS's Martin Luther: The Reluctant Revolutionary. As far as the Virgin Mary thing, they were talking about Leo X's reinstatement of indulgences, slips of paper that supposedly pardoned practically any sin and guaranteed your entry to heaven. Therefore, people would (sardonically) say that they could even pardon sex with the Virgin Mary, if that were possible (insert rimshot here).

The odd thing about this cake story is that it appears to be a recurring theme. Apparently, Pope Alexander VI is also believed to have hosted such a baking extravaganza. A blog called Oddee, which appears to have received various critical acclaim, had a 10 Worst Popes of all time article in '09 that claims the naked boys jumping out of cake routine was one of Alexander's old standbys and not Leo's.

So... who knows... Surely there's a slightly more contemporary source that speaks of such a papal practice... But it appears there's ample evidence that Leo X and others hosted lascivious activities that would even bug out the eyes of members of our modern day liberal society. Enderandpeter (talk) 22:51, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Young cardinals

Surely this comment belongs on the Cardinals page rather than here - creates an overcomplex sentence. Jackiespeel 16:55, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

What's up with the POV

"Splendour"? "Dignity"? "Weighty and wise"? 66.95.123.6 17:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Is this vandalism?

"The quote "How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us" is commonly but nonetheless falsely attributed to him. In actuality, the quote is derived from The Pageant of the Popes, a parodical play of the Protestant satirist John Bale.

But then again we do not have any conclusive proof that the quote was falsely attributed to the pope."

If its established that its falsely attributed to him, and there is knowledge of the real author of the quote... how can "we" not have conclusive proof...? Mendez ([email protected])

I have rewritten the above this way:

Knowledge or Speculation?

Okay, I'm confused. The "Personal relationships" section begins with the statement that "Several historians have suggested the likelihood that Leo may have been homosexual" (emphasis mine). This implies that there is no certain knowledge to this effect. But then, in the next paragraph, it is asserted as an established fact that "Leo fell in love with Marc'Antonio [Flaminio]". This seems to me contradictory. Or am I missing something? -Agur bar Jacé (talk) 15:07, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I've looked at this again - I think it's consistent. The article says that some historians that have looked at the issue think he may have been homosexual (or at the very least have considered contemporary reports as such). Not all agree nor have all looked at the issue. One of those historians that has - Falconi - has specifically examined the infatuation with Flaminio. Contaldo80 (talk) 16:52, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I've tweaked the extra detail added under personal relationships. But I'm very concerned about these new sources. Both works were published over 100 years ago! Not sure really what they can usefully tell us. Von Pastor is undoubtedly a papal apologist. Isn't there something more recent. Contaldo80 (talk) 08:50, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

It was not my intention to appreciate which version is more correct. Previously only one version was included, I've added the contrary opinions, maybe actually in too much categorical form. Ludwig von Pastor was undoubtedely a papal apologist, but it cannot be denied that his work is well documentated and referenced. Pastor presented some other contemporary testimonies (e.g. of Matteo Herculano) which explicitly state that Leo X lived in chasity also as a pope. He adds that he found no trace of such allegation in the reports of Venetian and Mantuan ambassadors on the papal court, and that even an envoy of Leo's enemy prince d'Este was unable to find antything to discredit him in this area. He adnotes also that Guicciardini was not a resident of a papal court during Leo's pontificate, that on another occassion he contradicts himself in his statements concerning Leo's moral conduct, and that even anti-papal historian Gregorovius considered this testimony unreliable. Vaughan says that there are many testimonies accusing Leo of sodomy but none of them produced during Leo's lifetime. These later testimonies, according to Vaughan, are based only on obscure and not very numerous allusions (such as that of Guicciardini), and are strongly prejudiced towards Leo, or generally, towards the papacy. Some accounts about homosexual affairs of Leo X contain inaccuracies that seriously undermine their credibility. For example, Nigel Cawthorne in Sex lives of the Popes repeats the story that leader of the plot against Leo in 1517, Alfonso Petrucci, was previously his lover, and that Leo X promoted him to the cardinalate in exchange for this prostitution. But it is well established that Petrucci was elevated to the cardinalate already by Julius II in 1511. I haven't read the book of Falconi, but, basing on the data available to me, I think that there are good reasons to be sceptical towards accounts about the homosexual life of this pope, which of course does not mean that they all must be untrue or unreliable CarlosPn (talk) 11:35, 13 May 2009 (CET)

Strathern is a recent source (2003) CarlosPn (talk) 11:35, 13 May 2009 (CET)

That's helpful - thanks. In which case I might be more comfortable citing the primary sources in favour of Leo's chastity - Herculano; and the caveat that Guiccardini was not resident. I otherwise think referring specifically to these old works. I've nevertheless kept von pastor while ditching the Vaughan and incorporated some of the contrary contemporary evidence. Would be good if we can get some recent works that make the same point to bring it all a bit more up to date. I note also that Stathern argues not that Leo was homosexual, but rather that he was 'active' in his relationships. Contaldo80 (talk) 10:42, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Homosexual inclinations of Leo are rather undeniable. His only contemporary biographer Paolo Giovio mentions that he "flirted" with some of his chamberlains, and the context of this account can hardly be interpretated otherwise (although he seems to suggest that it was nothing more than "flirtation" and looks at this only as a trifle, not serious vice). The question is only: "active or not?". I'm afraid that, as in many similar cases, it is rather unlikely to achieve a final conclusion. CarlosPn (talk) 14:15, 13 May 2009 (CET)

Absolutely - I agree. I think the text as we have looks as close as we can get now. What do you think - any clarifications we might make? Contaldo80 (talk) 15:39, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I think it's good enough now. Just only a general note. I think that the opinions of the authors who are considered partial, just as L. von Pastor, but also the others, and no matter from which "camp", should not be eliminated authomatically from the discussion on the ground of their partiality. They should be treated with greatest caution, but when their opinions are supported by solid references and evidence, there is no reason to exclude them. Ludwig von Pastor generaly rejected all accusations of immorality against the popes and cardinals except those proven for 200 or even more percent, and his partiality in favour of the papacy is beyond the dispute. He tried to discredit even the charges very well documentated (also in the catholic sources), such as that against Julius III or cardinal Antonio Barberini. But in some cases he made detailed examinations of the charges and cast the doubts on them with serious arguments and evidence. The case of Leo X belonges to that category and that's why I've included his opinion here. Further, "newer" study does not necessarily mean "better" or more reliable, vide the case of Nigel Cawthorne in my previous note CarlosPn (talk) 00:10, 14 May 2009 (CET)

Yes - I understand. Sounds sensible. Thanks. Contaldo80 (talk) 16:17, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Prediction of end times?

I read that Pope Leo once said in 1514, "I will not see the end of the world, nor will you my brethren, for its time is long in the future, 500 years hence." Can anyone verify this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.144.17.250 (talk) 01:44, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

No mention of burning

The article downplays the fact that Exsurge Domine permits the burning of heretics. If there is no objection, I intend to be bold and add something about this Eiler7 (talk) 19:35, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

If you can bring references for this, it would be even better. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:44, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

It means serving a POV if you quote just one condemnation (No. 33 [?]) out of Exsurge Domine, make sure that it is the very one out of over forty that will offend modern ears, neglect the fact that the Pope did not condemn it as "heretical" (or "erroneous") but summarily as "heretical or erroneous or scandalous or offending pius ears or ... or ... or ..." (i. e. without exactly giving a qualification), neglect that the condemned proposition (while, per se, it must be said, not erroneous) has a basis in Lutheranism which is flawed, neglect that Luther after all never meant to stop oppression of dissenting thought, on the contrary greatly encouraged it against the Catholic Church, neglect that the other 41 (?) propositions are very justly condemned, and so on and so on.--93.133.222.245 (talk) 12:57, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Homosexuality and the interpretation of "unnatural vice"

Unnatural vice is not necessarily homosexuality, but could also mean masturbation. --93.133.222.245 (talk) 12:57, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

It is undoubtedly a critique of his alleged homosexuality, it should be noted as a perjorative however. He certainly can be defined as one who acted upon same sex attraction, but the concept of homosexuality as a defining structure was alien in the Renaissance. Syxxpackid420 (talk) 10:43, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Masturbation - are you serious? You think someone went to the trouble of recording in their memoirs or whatever that the Pope masturbated? Contaldo80 (talk) 08:33, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm only saying that masturbation, homosexual, and bestial acts were and are altogether grouped under the title "unnatural vice" in moral theology.--93.133.250.204 (talk) 10:09, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Are they - are you sure? In which case it must show how "moral theology" is bonkers! I mean most people masturbate so it can hardly be 'unnatural' can it! Hilarious. Contaldo80 (talk) 12:11, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

It is considered unnatural in Catholic moral theology in that it is a sexual act that cannot lead to procreation.Wkharrisjr (talk) 12:56, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I think you'll agree that in the context of this article this discussion on whether masturbation is "unnatural vice" according to moral theology is rather irrelevant (as indeed it is in the real world too). Contaldo80 (talk) 09:18, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Conflicting information

How can someone elected cardinal in 1489 (Cardinal section) be the "last non-priest to be elected Pope" in 1513 (Pope section)? Travelpleb (talk) 22:18, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Up to 1917, there was no obligation for cardinals to receive priestly ordination. Cardinal Medici was only deacon when elected to the Papacy CarlosPn (talk) 23:45, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

That's interesting. Should the text clarify the non-preistliness of the cardinal? As it stands now it appears confusing.Travelpleb (talk) 18:15, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Allegged Homosexuality

Among the sources of the Homosexuality section there are:

• A former priest who was famous for his hatred against the Church.
• Anonymous pasquinades.
• Mr Cesare Falconi. Search him on google, you'll se he is invisible. There's no trace of him.

This shows that the author of this section does not understand the basics of Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. But then I found out something worse. The book Who's who in Gay and Lesbian history (Aldrich, Wotherspoon) is available online and you can see that the book quotes a lot from the fake Mr. Falconi. The Guicciardini citation also comes from Aldrich, but he does not provide any citation to Guicciardini's work - it could be all made up. If Aldrich's book does not cite sources, how can it be trusted?

In fact, it's wrong to call it "Aldrich's" or "Wotherspoon's" book, since it is a compilation of individual contributions. Leo X's entry was written by Giovanni Dall'Orto, who according to the Spanish Wikipedia, is a LGBT TouTube vlogger. Please re-read WP:SOURCES.

Exceptional claims require exceptional sources: "Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources" (WP:EXCEPTIONAL). So I'm simply deleting everything until at least two non-partisan sources back this theory. --El Huinca (talk) 22:07, 17 December 2013 (UTC)