Talk:Mohun Bagan AC

Requested move 23 September 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn by nominator. GiantSnowman 17:58, 23 September 2020 (UTC) GiantSnowman 17:58, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

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Mohun Bagan A.C. → ATK Mohun Bagan FC – I am reopening this discussion with a new section because I did not agree with the result of the last discussion, a no consensus, and because the last discussion was filled with obvious brigading and non-discourse. The 2020–21 Indian Super League season is coming up next month and I think this needs to be resolved soon before the season starts. The reason I believe this article should be renamed from Mohun Bagan A.C. to ATK Mohun Bagan FC is as follows:

Per WP:NCST, I don't believe there is any ambiguity or confusion over the official spelling of the club's name in English. The club's official twitter (which is verified) is named ATK Mohun Bagan FC. The club's official website will be atkmohunbaganfc.in. The Indian Super League, the league that the club plays in, has the team named as ATK Mohun Bagan FC. The All India Football Federation, the official governing body for football in India has the club registered and listed as ATK Mohun Bagan FC. Additionally, we have reliable sources who call the club ATK Mohun Bagan FC. See examples such as this, this, this, this, this, this, and this.

There is no confusion here. The club was officially rebranded as ATK Mohun Bagan FC on 10 July 2020. Ever since, reliable sources have reported using that name, official accounts have been using the name. There is no doubt here. I think this needs to end now. No, changing the name doesn't hurt the club's image or history. No, this wouldn't confuse editors who decide to read at least two lines. So I am putting this out there. There needs to be a consensus. ArsenalFan700 (talk) 02:51, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

• Comment. The previous discussion (started 3 September and closed 22 September) is here in the talk page archive. 94.21.252.157 (talk) 03:33, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose and speedy procedural close. (edit conflict) This article is about the multi-sport athletic club called "Mohun Bagan A.C." – the football ops called "ATK Mohun Bagan FC" is a subtopic of the athletic club. The football ops title redirects to this page and evidently isn't notable enough for its own article, since it's been merged into this article at least three times. This particular page should remain at its current title. The previous move request, which was just closed for a second time and most recently by BD2412, an admin, can be found at Talk:Mohun Bagan A.C./Archive 2#Requested move 3 September 2020. The first closure of "not moved" was changed by BD2412 to "no consensus". That means that a new move request such as this one should have very strong NEW arguments to expect to be successful. So I recommend speedy closure of this request since the previous move request was closed about nine hours ago as I write this. And I sincerely hope that the nom, ArsenalFan700, refrains from BADGERING me like he appears to have done to other opposing editors in the previous move request. Not for anything, ArsenalFan700, but this is just wrong on several levels. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 03:52, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I am not badgering. I am trying to talk about this and if you read the previous discussion it is obvious that most people were speaking purely based on emotion. But look, let's talk about this. You said that this is an article about the athletic club... no, this article is about the football club. Regardless that this article opens with "Indian multi-sport club", the grand majority of this article is purely just about football. The history section deals with only football and has nothing about other sports. The rivalries section is also only about football, no other sports. The crest and colours, is also only about football in that the merger with ATK is mentioned in it. The "Kit manufacturers and shirt sponsors" section... also only football as these sponsors were football only. The stadium section is also only about football. The supporters section deals with only football. Notable players is only footballers. The players and coaching staff? Only football. Recent seasons? Only football. The honours section? Only football. This article is clearly just a football article, not an article for a multi-sport club. Also, the football club is notable as the club passes WP:FOOTYN and WP:GNG. So either way, we should have an article for ATK Mohun Bagan FC. Look, I am not an expert on wikipedia rules and etiquette, clearly, but I am willing to put myself on the line here because this shouldn't be a problem. The opposes in the previous section were all literally that this would violate WP:COMMONNAME, which I responded too and no one responded back, and that this would ruin the history of the club, which is a ridiculous argument when the actual club, the league, the AIFF, and even reliable sources are now calling the club by a different name. I am sorry again if you think this is badgering and sorry if I am but I do want to discuss this in good faith. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 04:14, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't mind discussing this with you, AF700; however, don't expect me to flip-flop easily. The history section links to History of Mohun Bagan A.C., where football, cricket, athletics, tennis and hockey are mentioned. There is also a youth athletics mentioned in this article. Of course this article is well-endowed with football details since football is where this club has really shined over many years. That's no surprise. It's also no reason to think that this club is all about football, because it obviously is not. This is clearly a case of "too soon", so you should withdraw this request and wait a few months, while that time can be spent looking for newer and stronger arguments for what you want to do. You should respect the previous outcome and the closer's decision. That's really all there is to it, imho. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 04:39, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

i can respect that opinion but IMO, this needs to be resolved prior to the start of the 2020–21 Indian Super League season, which starts next month. I just looked through the History page. Cricket is only mentioned three times... once about a footballer who was also a cricket player, as a part of a small tidbit about the 1949 celebrations, and an exhibition cricket match that occurred in the 60s. Hockey is only mentioned once. Tennis is only mentioned once. And athletics only once as well. Have you read the History of Mohun Bagan A.C. page? It is mainly, 100% about football. I'll be honest, one can make an argument that the football team passes WP:FOOTYN and WP:GNG and that the athletic club Mohun Bagan doesn't pass WP:GNG as almost all sources for the club are about the football side only. I am more than happy to have a Mohun Bagan A.C. (disambiguation) for listing the other teams but there probably isn't even a need for an "athletics article". Also, please look at Mohun Bagan A.C. (youth). It is 100% football only, focusing on the club's youth football teams that participated in the Indian football youth leagues. Also, I would like to add that the opening of this article was always "Mohun Bagan Athletic Club is a professional football club based in West Bengal, India." until 8 May 2020, with no edit summary given for the change. So overall, I don't believe this is a case of too soon. I think this is a case where the football team for this club has had a page for years but was only very recently slightly changed to "multi-sport" but without much mention of other sports. It is quite clear that the football team is notable, as it passes the above notability criteria, including WP:GNG, while the sports side overall probably doesn't warrant an article. I am not sure if this is enough to swap you over but I hope it is. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 05:12, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, you have gotten your wish. This has been resolved and before the start of the season, in all eyes but yours. It doesn't matter if a sport is mentioned three times or three hundred times. The fact remains that this article is about an athletic club that encompasses more than one sport. Forgive me but I'm surprised that you've edited Wikipedia for almost ten years, and you still don't see yourself as an expert. You must know by now how Wikipedia works. This reference work, this encyclopedia, works by consensus. In the previous RM there was no consensus, and in most such cases, the article title stays at the status quo name (by previous consensus). Even if I did change my mind and agree with you, we are still just two voices in a rather large editing community of voices. Those voices were unable to come to consensus in the previous discussion. That is what you should respect and accept. All you're doing here and now is kicking a dead horse. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 07:48, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I am sorry but no. I'll be honest, I am doubting that the closing admin even read the discussion properly. The fact that the closing rationale was simply no consensus without actually mentioning anything discussed says that it was probably skimmed. Also, I don't think there should even be "consensus" but rather it should be what is the right argument. Like, this isn't a vote. And sorry if I am not an expert on all these rules but you have not answered anything I mentioned above. You have not account for the fact that this article was labeled for a football club and only about a football club until one tiny edit in May 2020, where the lead was changed slightly and the rest of the article since has been kept the same. You have not responded back to the other Mohun Bagan pages being only about football. You haven't even responded to the idea that the football club is notable but the athletic club as a whole is not. Did you read the previous discussion in full? I really want to know because that discussion was just exhausting. The opposition answers consisted of just emotion responses such as history being destroyed, confusing editors when this wouldn't be confusing, and how this is a society. I mean, can you see why I am still going with this? It is because I have been editing for over ten years now and it surprises me that a no consensus can be given when most users who don't edit primarily this article say "support" or that most "opposes" come from users who are obviously fans and who only edit this page or related pages who are opposing for emotional reasons. That is why I started a new discussion and wanted more participation from outside, no bias users. This should have been simply a formality, not a terrible issue. Every page right now which references the club currently is labeling it as ATK Mohun Bagan FC, whether on the Indian Super League page, the season page, and even on players pages and they will all reference to a page titled wrongly... all because we believe for some reason that this page is for an athletic club, not a football club, which is frankly ridiculous. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 13:20, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

• Comment WP:DROPTHESTICK Spike 'em (talk) 09:30, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
• Nominator comment: I'm closing this discussion. Obviously nothing will change here yet. I am really disappointed by that, not because I believe I am right and I want to be a sore loser, but because in the last discussion nothing was ever responded to properly and what should honestly have been a formality has been made more complicated than it should have been, all because some fans can't stand seeing three letters in the beginning of their favorite team's page. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 13:27, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Questions about the name change

• Comment I know the discussion on this has closed, but I have a question for ArsenalFan700 (talk). If we change the name of the page to ATK Mohun Bagan FC, (which personally being a Mohun Bagan fan I do not object to) what do we do about the information that is present on the Mohun Bagan A.C. page? Do we attribute it to ATK Mohun Bagan FC? That would be factually incorrect, wouldn't it? Secondly, do we call ATK Mohun Bagan FC as 3 times ISL champions? If so, then the club is a continuation of ATK (Football club) and not of Mohun Bagan A.C. Does it not makes more logical sense to create a new page called 'ATK Mohun Bagan FC'? I am not sure why that page even after being created was deleted. Lastly, I am just trying to understand the situation here and not trying to pass a judgement on what is the right way to go about this. Please let me know your thoughts and if necessary we should maybe re-open this discussion again in the future. Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 20:40, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi, look at examples like at Arsenal. Arsenal were founded originally as Dial Square, then Royal Arsenal, then Woolwich Arsenal, and finally, just Arsenal. In the history section, you will notice sentences like "Royal Arsenal F.C.'s first home was Plumstead Common..." or "Woolwich Arsenal was the first southern member of The Football League, starting out in the Second Division". The same example can be seen at Sporting Kansas City where the team was known as the Kansas City Wizards prior to 2010. Here, you will see sentences like " 2000, their first full season under Bob Gansler, the Wizards opened the season on a 12-game unbeaten streak". So to answer your question, we wouldn't attribute any prior history to ATK Mohun Bagan in name... it would be "Mohun Bagan won the 1911 IFA Shield". Keep in mind though, I get you are against the name, but please don't take this out on wikipedia. That is on your team for deciding to be bought by RPSG Group and have its name changed. ATK Mohun Bagan is still technically the same team that won the 1911 IFA Shield.

For the ATK history, that is tough to explain. I don't think ATK Mohun Bagan or the ISL have made any comments about this team being reigning champions or anything. So no, for now, I wouldn't attribute any ISL titles to ATK Mohun Bagan. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:17, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Just to add on, we also have an Indian example in Odisha FC, who were the Delhi Dynamos before. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:21, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

"Keep in mind though, I get you are against the name, but please don't take this out on wikipedia" - I do not think you read my post correctly. Request to please read the comment in brackets more carefully. The name whatever it is, is beyond my control. I am concerned about how we can make the name change you propose, smoother. Anyhow, I agree with you on the Arsenal example and it makes sense, however, "ATK Mohun Bagan is still technically the same team that won the 1911 IFA Shield" is a big stretch which is not very convincing. The Odisha FC example you gave does not apply in this case, since that was a name change and this is two football clubs getting merged. I would draw your attention to the AS Roma merger though, and note that the three clubs that merged to form the new club have there on pages on Wikipedia. Not only ATK (football club) but technically Mohun Bagan (football club) also does not exist anymore. In a lack of a clear consensus, I think trying to create a new page for ATK Mohun Bagan FC might just be a better thing to do and maybe change the tense for both ATK (Football club) and Mohun Bagan A.C. to past tense could be a way forward. Let me know what you think. IMO, there is no correct thing here, because every perspective seems to have a logical contradiction. Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 22:03, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

First off, I apologize for the last part, didn't read the parentheses properly. But yes, that was the very original discussion... is ATK Mohun Bagan FC a brand new club or are they a continuation of Mohun Bagan (as in, the same team that won the 1911 IFA Shield). Obviously it can't be both and it can't be neither. I am more than okay with going forward with a brand new page for ATK Mohun Bagan FC and technically that is what should have happened. The discussion I started a couple weeks ago in regards to a name change was in respect for the decision of the "merger". Either way, there needs to be a page titled ATK Mohun Bagan FC. The club itself is very confusing. You have Tiri saying that he is happy to return to the club (in this case, ATK) and then you have Brad Inman saying how he is happy to join a club with all the history. If you want, we can discuss probably reopening a discussion on if this is ATK Mohun Bagan FC, the continuation of Mohun Bagan or a new club after the merger of Mohun Bagan and ATK. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 22:17, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I think we should reopen the discussion you propose. Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 23:00, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

• Add So, I have thought about this long, and this is where I stand. 1> ATK Mohun Bagan FC is logically a continuation of Mohun Bagan A.C. The only thing that would contradict my logic is ATK Mohun Bagan playing ISL with the same bid as ATK (Football club). However, the bid winner is Kolkata Games and Sports pvt. ltd. They have decided to disband there football team (ATK (Football club) and buy 80% stake in Mohun Bagan F.C. 2> The wikipedia page Mohun Bagan A.C. is about Mohun Bagan F.C. Without the football club, the remainder of the article does not meet notability requirements in my opinion. 3> We should rename the page ATK Mohun Bagan FC and all sections talking about other sports should exist in a separate section (or a page if anyone can show notability requirements being met) called Mohun Bagan A.C. Finally, either way there has to be a page named ATK Mohun Bagan FC on wikipedia where all mentions of the club in ISL should link to. Please let me know what you think. Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 23:43, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

There was a separate page called ATK Mohun Bagan FC and it was nominated by ArsenalFan700 for merging into the page Mohun Bagan A.C.. The closure of the discussion was followed by merging of that page into the Mohun Bagan A.C. page as AMBFC is a continuation of the same old club. Aarul Chandekar (talk) 09:50, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

• MB website did say its a new football club. As per ISL & AIFF website, ATKMB is the continuation of ATK. ❯❯❯   S A H A 16:21, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Where did the ISL and AIFF website say that? --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 20:15, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

ArsenalFan700, because they continued with ATK's profile. Atletico de Kolkata - ATK - ATK Mohun Bagan. Three of them using the same profile and same office address. ❯❯❯   S A H A 08:53, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Eh, it could very well be possible that it is just the way the coding for the switch works. I think they did the same with FC Pune City and Hyderabad and they are not the same club. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 15:46, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

ArsenalFan700, nope its not. that's why I am emphasizing on this. see 2014 standings from official isl website. we have pune and delhi but not Atletico de Kolkata. It got changed to ATKMB. ❯❯❯   S A H A 16:58, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

That is very interesting actually and I have never seen it like that before. You might be right. Certainly from the articles in the website, it seems like ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a contination of ATK. I am not sure if they have talked about them as being reigning champions though. Since this isn't a discussion officially to move anything or redirect etc. you might want to add this to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football to get other people to dig and add their opinion. After a couple weeks lets start a discussion on which way we think this should go. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 18:44, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Also, just putting it out there... David Williams has signed an extension with ATK Mohun Bagan FC. Carl McHugh has also signed a one year extension. Tiri is excited to return to the club but he has only played for ATK not Mohun Bagan. The press release in July has Ganguly saying "I salute the coming together of ATK and Mohun Bagan. Together the brand name ATK Mohun Bagan will create history" which makes me feel this is a separate club entirely but will recognize the past achievements of both Mohun Bagan and ATK. What say you? --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 18:54, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Final post... look at their facebook page... "ATK Mohun Bagan FC is an Indian professional football club based in Kolkata, West Bengal. The club competes in the Indian Super League, the top flight of Indian football. This new merged club was formed as part of a merger between football section of multi-sport club Mohun Bagan AC and former ISL side ATK. This, to me, confirms that this is a brand new club formed as part of a merger between the football section of Mohun Bagan and ATK. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 18:57, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Please reread what you have posted. Especially the part: a merger between football section of multi-sport club Mohun Bagan AC and former ISL side ATK. Can't you see that the merger was between the football section and ATK? The merger was NOT between the entire and whole Mohun bagan AC athletic club and ATK, just the football section. So the club itself retains its name and its article here on Wikipedia. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 19:26, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

And since this isn't an actual discussion for a move or merge but just a general discussion I don't mind telling you that, with all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about and that this page is not about the club as a whole. It is about the football club only. It was always just about the football club and the only part even explaining the "multi-sport" part is the lead sentence which was changed on 8 May 2020 without any reason given. The lead and page was always about football. But if you want to argue that it is a different page then go for it... the club as a whole is probably not even notable anyway, as stated by me and Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk · contribs) whereas the football team does pass both WP:GNG and WP:FOOTYN. Also please re-read my post. I am basically saying that we should have a new page for ATK Mohun Bagan FC after what I saw written by the club itself. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:38, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

If ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a continuation of ATK (Football Club), as stated/implied by User:ArnabSaha then the name of that page should be changed to ATK Mohun Bagan FC. I still do not buy that argument. There is a huge contradiction on the ISL website. FC Pune City was disbanded, and sold its franchise right to a Telengana based businessman. Thus Hyderabad FC, was not under the same ownership as FC Pune City, so in the ISL website there is mention of FC Pune City in the standings till the 2018-19 season. Starting from the 2019-20 season, which is when Hyderabad FC was formed, there is Hyderabad FC in the standings. However, Delhi Dynamos was not disbanded, they relocated to a new home. No franchise rights ever changed hands. Now given the same thing (no franchise rights changing hands) happened with ATK Mohun Bagan FC, there is no reason why 2014 ISL standings should have ATK Mohun Bagan FC in it, while it still has Delhi Dynamos FC (and not Odisha FC) in it. The existence and inheritance of a club cannot be linked to the franchise rights is my point. Franchise (Kolkata Games and Sports Pvt. Ltd. in case of ATK Mohun Bagan FC) can decide to form a new club or invest in another club whenever they want and should still be able to play ISL with their existing bid. Given all of this, I strongly feel how we should interpret this event is that, Kolkata Games and Sports Pvt. Ltd. disbanded their initial club ATK (Football Club) and decided to invest in Mohun Bagan FC, and renamed Mohun Bagan FC as ATK Mohun Bagan FC. This interpretation is further supported by the letter given to the IFA, which stated that ATK (Football Club) was being disbanded and their team was being withdrawn from the Calcutta Football league (2nd division, I think) and Mohun Bagan FC filed to change the name of their team to ATK Mohun Bagan FC. Given all this,I think ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a continuation of Mohun Bagan FC, and this page (Mohun Bagan A.C.) being just about the football section of Mohun Bagan A.C. should be renamed to ATK Mohun Bagan FC (As a Mohun Bagan fan, I am not pleased about letting this happen, but if we want to maintain correctness of the way Wikipedia operates, I am convinced this is the right thing to do) and the ATK (Football Club) page should be changed to past-tense. Please let me know your thoughts. Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 21:53, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Ramit.mukherjee.1994, I understand your point, but your statement is mostly WP:OR. FSDL is a highly professional and rich company, so its highly unlikely that there's any kind of contradiction from their side.

1. I couldn't find any WP:RS saying ATK disbanded.
2. I couldn't find any RS on the IFA letter. The image that's revolving was posted by MB fan clubs in social media, which is definitely not an RS.
3. In AIFF's club profile also, Atletico de Kolkata to ATK to ATK Mohun Bagan. As of now, 228 players are registered under ATKMB, whereas MB profile exists but with 0 players. In the case of East Bengal, AIFF is using the same profile whether Quess EB or just East Bengal.
4. Mohun Bagan's website refers to ATKMB as a new club

I would prefer sticking to WP:RS, especially the official sources. As I said before, emotionally its continuation of MB but technically its continuation of ATK. ❯❯❯   S A H A 06:03, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Questions left unanswered

The X vs. Y here seems to be X = how the outside world works and Y = how Wikipedia works. The outside world of football club experts appears to see ATK Mohun Bagan FC as a stand-alone entity deserving of its own article on Wikipedia. That is a valid point; however, it butts heads against Y, at least for now. Y, or how Wikipedia works, is about an athletic club, Mohun Bagan A.C., which is notable expressly because among all its other sports activities, its football section, now known as ATK Mohun Bagan FC, has lifted it high above non-notability. One editor likened that to a popular, notable book with one very notable chapter among several chapters – Wikipedia does not change the name of the book just because it has one very notable chapter. Wikipedia goes with what reliable, independent, secondary, English-language sources say. That is how Wikipedia works. Has this athletic club changed its name? or has it just changed the name of its football section? Was the above merger with the entire athletic club? or was the merger just a combining of ATK (football club) with only the football section of Mohun Bagan A.C.? A merging of the very important football section with an outside football club does not warrant a name change of this article. This is still an athletic club that engages in several sports, so if the athletic club known as Mohun Bagan A.C. has not changed its name to ATK Mohun Bagan FC, then the title of this article should remain as it is. If on the other hand this athletic club has changed its name, and reliable sources now use that name to refer to the athletic club, then there is good reason to change the title of this article. So an important question for the experts out there, Ramit.mukherjee.1994 and ArsenalFan700 among them, would be: when reliable sources write about ATK Mohun Bagan FC, do they refer to the entire athletic club known (or previously known) as Mohun Bagan A.C.? or do they still refer only to a very large and notable "section" of that athletic club? P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 03:39, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

According to the club's own description, This new merged club was formed as part of a merger between football section of multi-sport club Mohun Bagan AC and former ISL side ATK. So yes, it is just the football section. RPSG Group, the company that bought into the football side, does not also own the cricket team for example. So it is just the football side that has changed. This page is about the football team and always has been. However, based on the club's own description, ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a brand new team that was formed after the merger of Mohun Bagan and ATK. Therefore, it looks like we should create a new article for ATK Mohun Bagan FC. This actually supports what was said a few months ago when some users brought up Mohun Bagan's own press release. RPSG Group, the owners of ATK bought an 80% stake in Mohun Bagan Football Club (India) Private Limited, which is a subsidiary group of Mohun Bagan Athletic Club. According to the club's press release as well, "This move will see the two football clubs coming together into a new merged identity to compete in the rapidly growing professional Indian football landscape." The Indian Super League also mentions a new merged entity. So based on this, I am definitely more in favor now of moving forward with a new page. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 03:58, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that press release is a primary source, so two things: 1) it does not meet Wikipedia's "independent, secondary" source requirement and 2) judging by the comments in the press release, there are a lot of questions the press release left unanswered. So this does not address whether or not the athletic club has changed its name to the name of the football section (apparently not), nor do we see an abundance of reliable, independent, secondary, English language sources that say beyond doubt that the name of the football section is also the name of the athletic club. Without that, I must disagree that this article's title should be changed, and I disagree that the football section should have its own article. The football section of the multi-sport athletic club is abundantly described within this article, so does not require its own page. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 05:16, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

The football team literally, on its own, passes WP:FOOTYN and WP:GNG and will have a standalone article regardless. But anyway, here is an independent source which clarifies the new ownership: "The ATK franchise is jointly owned by industrialists Sanjiv Goenka, Harshavardhan Neotia, Utsav Parekh, former India cricket team captain and current BCCI president Sourav Ganguly and Mohun Bagan Football Club (India) Private Ltd.". This independent source confirms the merger between Mohun Bagan and ATK. Also WP:FACEBOOK can be used here in that the ATK Mohun Bagan FC page is authenticated as belonging to the subject and the page literally says itself "This new merged club was formed as part of a merger between football section of multi-sport club Mohun Bagan AC and former ISL side ATK." This should thus be more than enough to tell you that this is a merger not with Mohun Bagan the athletic club but with Mohun Bagan's subsidiary football team AND that ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a new club formed as part of a merger. I really don't see what more you need here. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 08:34, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Just to further clarify from this source: RPSG Group bought into Mohun Bagan Football Club, not Mohun Bagan Athletic Club. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 08:42, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Name change and having a new article are different issues. Two things-

1. If the new article isn't made, then it should be renamed, otherwise no.
2. Multisport was added in May, before that it was mentioned football club.

No RS said ATKMB is the continuation or another chapter. Also, how can this be a chapter, when we have two different books? Book 1, Book 2 ❯❯❯   S A H A 06:12, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

To editor S A H A: the "two books" are intriguing. So how does the All India Football Federation screw up like that? Two different names? two different addresses? two different emails? What's up with that? And you still don't provide any reliable sources to support your views that you outline above. What's up with that? P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 08:44, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

And btw, it doesn't matter when "multi-sport" was added, because the athletic club was a multi-sport club long before May, wasn't it? P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 08:49, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

I think you're missing the point when people mention the multi-sport part. This isn't hard. Mohun Bagan A.C. is literally an article created for the football team and because the football team passes WP:GNG and WP:FOOTYN, since the club participated in the I-League, India's top national level football competition. At no point was the intention of the article ever really about the athletic club as a whole, just the football club. You can't just now come in here and say "well, actually this page is for the athletic club" because it isn't, it clearly isn't and has never been for the athletic club minus one line added in May. This is now becoming tiresome because we really don't know how else we can put it at this point. Don't make this article be what is isn't. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 08:56, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Paine Ellsworth- sorry, where did I miss adding sources to my statement? ❯❯❯   S A H A 09:30, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

So it seems none of us is going to change the mind of any other, so we will have to agree to disagree. This article is titled with the athletic club's name, and the reality of the club's situation, that it is a multi-sport club, was added in May. It has now agreed to merge its awesome football section with ATK and retains 20% ownership. Since the athletic club is clearly notable mostly because of its football interest, there is no reason to alter this article's title and no reason to have a separate article for the newly formed ATK Mohun Bagan FC, since it is amply described here in the athletic club's article. Until there are reliable, independent, secondary, English-language sources that say differently, the status quo should remain. I see no reason to change it. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 20:08, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Honestly, you have no idea what you're talking about. The athletic isn't notable because of its football section, the football section is notable on its own. We literally have rules on wiki for this at WP:FOOTYN. Honestly, this is dumb, you're being a hard ass for no reason. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:10, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

BTW, I love how you basically ignore my rebuttals unless they benefit you. You bring up the History of Mohun Bagan A.C. and Mohun Bagan A.C. (youth) pages and claim that they are about the athletic club. I counter by stating how they are both not about the athletic club as a whole, just the football side. You ignore it. I bring up the facebook page and WP:Facebook and you ignore it. We bring up what this article actually is and you ignore all because you want to believe it is for the athletic club when anyone who reads this article can disagree and know it is about the football club. But whatever, you're just being a dick now and personally again, have no idea what you're talking about. You don't follow Indian football, let alone football at all, so at this point, this is pointless to deal with you. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:15, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

P. Ellsworth, I think you misunderstood the thing. ❯❯❯   S A H A 06:16, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

That's interesting and even understandable, because I have been thinking that you and AF are far too close to this to understand Wikipedia's ways, at least in this case. I may not know football (even though I've been watching it and even playing it since a very young age) and I surely don't know Indian football although I've been reading a lot about it; however, I have edited Wikipedia for a significant amount of time and can tell you only what I've learned in that time. You SAHA are at least being civil about this unlike another editor who shall remain nameless. I like to follow the WP:AGF rule and think that you are holding your opinions in good faith. It's just not how this encyclopedia works, as attested by the RM results. Truly sorry that other Wikipedia editors disagree with you. And BTW, WP:FOOTYN doesn't even begin to address this particular kind of situation. That in itself tells me AF is way too close to this issue to have a straightforward perspective. Perhaps be patient and in time consensus can change. And there had better be lots and lots of reliable, independent, secondary, English-language sources cited to sway today's consensus! If AF wants to throw something my way besides insults, try sources. That is the path to change. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 17:01, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Why was my edit reverted? What kind of a sentence is that: "The football operations of Mohun Bagan are known as ATK Mohun Bagan FC since 2020, after Indian Super League club ATK dissolved in football section of Mohun Bagan."? How can a club be "dissolved in" another club, either it is dissolved or it is merged. And in this instance (according to sources) I believe it has merged. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 09:06, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

To editor Ludost Mlačani: it's true that there was a merger, and the result of that merger was that the ATK club was "dissolved" as a result of that merger. So "dissolved into" is a bit more specific than "merged". Thank you for your editing! P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 17:36, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Hmmm, I am afraid that this might be a bit POV. Because you could just as equally say: ...after the football section of Mohun Bagan dissolved in Indian Super League club ATK. And I see no such wording in ATK (football club) article. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 17:47, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

It's the emotions getting better of MB fans. The truth is ATK and Mohun Bagan got merged to form a entirely new club ATK Mohun Bagan. Just like happened with Paris FC & Germainn to form PSG. There should be a seperate page for ATK Mohun Bagan, The officials of the previous clubs has stated that ATK is an entirely new club and has been formed in 2020. ATK Mohun Bagan has replaced ATK's place. And thus you can see all the official ATK pages has now been named ATK Mohun Bagan, so I believe wr got 2 options... 1) Create a new page ATK Mohun Bagan 2) Move the ATK page to ATK Mohun Bagan (same as the official sm pages). Coderdaddy1369 (talk) 12:08, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree. I think that is clear. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 12:09, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Elite League 2019-20 website. It also says ATKMB is the continuation of ATK, ❯❯❯   S A H A 06:18, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Undoubtedly some rival fanatics sitting in the federation did this. All AIFF website results and match summaries are now corrected. It will be foolish to say that Mohun Bagan will be replaced in back dates with ATK Mohun Bagan. Eg. Elite League, AIFF isl or AIFF i-league. So, it simply shows someone sitting behind the screen are intentionally doing this on the direction of ISL, because the ISL are yet to do this, did not yet responded to the issues. Here AIFF media Dir. Nilanjan Datta's tweet for more clarification that it was mistake to do that. Drat8sub (talk) 16:04, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

if ISL website doesnt make a new club profile, then its a whole new ball game.  Saha ❯❯❯Stay safe  17:58, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

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File:ATK Mohun Bagan FC logo.svg and names of football activities table

The non-free use of File:ATK Mohun Bagan FC logo.svg is currently being discussed at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2020 September 30#File:ATK Mohun Bagan FC logo.svg to assess whether it's in compliance with Wikipedia's non-free content use policy. While it might be reasonably argue that the file should be allowed to be used in this article and there are some doing just that at the aforementioned FFD discussion, there's pretty much no way to argue that it can be used more than once per WP:NFCC#3a. A non-free file requires a separate, specific non-free use rationale each time it's used when that means using one time each in different articles or using more than once in the same article. So, adding the file twice to this article without providing a non-free use rationale for that second use is a clear violation of WP:NFCC#10c.

While I don't necessarily agree with the file's use in the image gallery in Mohun Bagan A.C.#Crest, that appears to be the more stable of the two uses (at least until the FFD discussion has finished). The table listing the various names for the football activities has been repeatedly been removed and added by various editors, and each time it's removed the file is removed with it. A non-free file is required to be being used in at least one article per WP:NFCC#7 and those which aren't are eligible for speedy deletion per WP:F5. So, a decision needs to be made (at least for the time being) regarding where to use this logo until the FFD discussion about it's use anywhere in the article has finished. If there's a consensus not to use the table, then the use in the "Crest" section should remain for the time being; on the other hand, if the consensus is to use image in the table, then it should be removed from the "Crest" section.

Without the image that table shouldn't be in the lead, which is where it was recently re-added; so, I've temporarily moved to the body of the article. It can be moved again as needed once everything is sorted out. -- Marchjuly (talk) 12:33, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 18 October 2020

Mohun Bagan A.C. → ATK Mohun Bagan FC – I think that the Mohun Bagan A.C. wikipedia page is mostly based on the football division of the Indian club commonly called Mohun Bagan. Now, the fact that the name of the football division of Mohun Bagan has been changed to ATK Mohun Bagan FC is clear from this report in which an official letter from the Secretary of the IFA (WB) has been cited.

It contains an utmost important note about the official correspondence between the parties and the governing body of football in the state of West Bengal that,

Mohun Bagan A.C. wishes to change its IFA affiliation to ATK Mohun Bagan Pvt. Ltd. and Kolkata Games and Sports Pvt. Ltd. (ATK Club) desires to get disaffiliated from IFA

. This shows that we can safely say that ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a rebranded version of Mohun Bagan (Football Division). Not only this but also the Entry Manual for AFC Club Competitions (2021 edition) might be very helpful in deciding it. The Sporting criteria for a club to enter AFC Competitions include as the first point,

9.1. To meet the sporting criteria, a club must have earned one (1) of the following

(which shall be applied in descending order to determine the representative clubs of a Member Association):

9.1.1. winner of the domestic top division league;

9.1.2. winner of the domestic cup;

9.1.3. runner-up of the domestic top division league;

9.1.4. third place of the domestic top division league;

9.1.5. fourth place of the domestic top division league (only if there is no domestic cup applicable for Article 9.1.2).

So, if ATK Mohun Bagan was any new club it could not qualify for the AFC Cup 2021. However, ATK Mohun Bagan FC has been confirmed about a group stage direct entry at AFC Cup 2021, the slot that is meant for the I-League champions of India. Mohun Bagan under the ownership of Mohun Bagan Football Club (India) Pvt. Ltd. own the I-League 2019-2020. This proves that Mohun Bagan have earned their place by virtue of winning the I-League and have retained it because ATK Mohun Bagan FC is simply a rechristened form of Mohun Bagan. Both the points mentioned above had been there earlier also but the previous move requests could not succeed in gaining consensus. I am making this move request (little quickly than is usual after unsuccessful RM) on the basis of some later sources to back up the genuineness.

The statementfrom Nita Ambani, Founder & Chairperson, Football Sports Development Limited (FSDL), while welcoming East Bengal brand into the ISL included,

The inclusion of both legacy clubs, i.e. East Bengal and Mohun Bagan (now ATK Mohun Bagan) opens limitless possibilities for Indian football

(then, i.e., 27 September 2020, the name of East Bengal football division was undecided). This statement also showed the name change explicitly. The message of congratulations on the day of Mohun Bagan being presented with the I-League trophy (18 October 2020 IST) from the Chief Minister of West Bengal Mamata Banerjee read

Heartiest congratulations to @Mohun_Bagan for becoming @ILeagueOfficial Champions.

Wonderful achievement for the Green & Maroon Brigade & best wishes as you step into upcoming @IndSuperLeague season as @atkmohunbaganfc.

(hashtag)Champions5

Note the words as you step into upcoming @IndSuperLeague season as @atkmohunbaganfc showing the continuity of Mohun Bagan in the form of ATK Mohun Bagan FC.

Another message for congratulations coming from Minister of State (Government of India) Kiren Rijiju read

This is that famous festive football frenzy of Kolkata I like the most about!

Heartiest congratulations to —@Mohun_Bagan for becoming @ILeagueOfficial Champions.

My best wishes for the upcoming @IndSuperLeague season as @atkmohunbaganfc

Another seal on the very fact that ATK Mohun Bagan is undoubtedly another rechristened version of the football division of Mohun Bagan A.C.

I request for the obvious move to be done with no separate page leftover in the name of Mohun Bagan. The main couple of divisions of Mohun Bagan A.C. will then have separate pages devoted to both of them (Football division at ATK Mohun Bagan FC and Cricket division at Mohun Bagan A.C. (Cricket)). I request every user participating in the debate to help keep the discussion organised. Also East Bengal fans are requested to keep things civil. Ardent fans make Indian football beautiful but please do not restart efforts to show ATK Mohun Bagan as a separate so called 'new club' (which it is absolutely not) if this move request reaches consensus in its favour. Do not try to malign an established institution. Thanks. M Kariyappa (talk) 15:58, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose: On the basis that I do believe that this is a new club. This is based on what ATK Mohun Bagan FC have said themselves in their facebook description page: This new merged club was formed as part of a merger between football section of multi-sport club Mohun Bagan AC and former ISL side ATK. Also, if you look at club's social media pages when announcing new signings, players who were part of ATK and not Mohun Bagan last season are being announced as returning to the club. See Arindam Bhattacharya (source), Javi Hernández (source), Tiri (source) who have all signed "extensions" with the club despite never playing for Mohun Bagan but only ATK. Also, please see reliable sources on this such as from scroll.in, goal.com, ESPN India, and Outlook India which all said that a new club will be formed in June 2020. Additionally, please see this article from Business Standard which clarifies that According to the agreement, Kolkata Games and Sports (KGS), an RPSG venture, which owns the ATK brand, will be merged with Mohun Bagan Football Club Pvt Ltd to form a new company. This new entity will come into effect by June 1 this year. and further The new brand identity ATK Mohun Bagan will compete in the Hero Indian Super League season 2020-21, along with other important competitions of the All India Football Federation calendar.

Also see this from the RPSG Group website which says The clubs were merged and will play as one ISL 2020-21 onwards. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 16:26, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose: Technically no. It's either retention of ATK or a new club. Tweets from political figures hardly matter here, as they do this for votes. Talking about TheFanGarage, the portal is run by ATKMB supporters (ChiranjitOjha, the main editor). AIFF website has 3 club profiles for ATK, MB and ATKMB (MB AIFF profile). ISL website denote ATKMB as the continuation of ATK (A small note here. I don't find any coding etc. issue here. They have made a new profile for EB, but not for ATKMB, whereas club profiles of other disbanded ISL don't exist anymore). ATKMB calling the contract extensions as "extension", whereas for MB players (SK Sahil) its "signing". MB player like Fran Gonzalez having 2 year contract, isn't even contacted by the club (goal.com). Neither he is released. The rest is provided by AF700. Then how is this a continuation of MB?  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  19:33, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

I think it is safe to say that this club is trying to act as a continuation of both ATK and Mohun Bagan, thus why they keep the stats that ATK obtained. As the club's own description says This is a ner merged club formed as part of the merger between the football section of Mohun Bagan and former' ISL side ATK. So ATK itself no longer exists for sure. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:45, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Ya, I also agree, its best to go for a 'new club'. Neither MBFC nor ATKFC exists.  Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe  01:53, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose: The reason is simple ATK Mohun Bagan is entirely a new club formed in 2020 due to merging of existing Football clubs namely ATK & Mohun Bagan. Kindly go through all the official statements & websites, the officials have reiterated that ATK Mohun Bagan is an entirely new club. Moreover https://www.indiansuperleague.com/standings

Here you can see ATK which participated in the previous seasons has been rebranded as ATKMB. All the media handles of ATK has been also rebranded as ATK Mohun Bagan. So it's the other way round. So the discussion should've been 1)Move the ATK page to ATK Mohun Bagan, which will have 2 founding dates OR 2) Create a entirely new page for ATK Mohun Bagan. MindSlayer13 (talk) 23:00, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Again, I would just like to show that from the club itself that the club ATK is formerly disbanded and was merged to form a new club. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 23:25, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

ATK Mohun Bagan is wearing the jersey with 'Champions of ISL 2019-20' embroidered on it MindSlayer13 (talk) 07:14, 19 October 2020 (UTC)