Talk:Million Dollar Extreme

Before going any further, please understand what a reliable source is, which is not defined as YouTube, any of this group's websites or Reddits, and especially not sites where all posters are anonymous. Any sources which do not meet RS are removed on sight and any talk page requests asking for us to add ineligible sources will also be closed or removed.

Sam Hyde

I think he's (in)famous enough now to warrant his own wiki article. What say you? Solntsa90 (talk) 10:28, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

There is nothing notable about Hyde outside of his MDE work (WP:BASIC, WP:PAGEDECIDE).--Ilovetopaint (talk) 15:17, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

He definitely merits his own page. He's been mentioned in multiple news outlets, trolled TEDTalk, Has been repeatedely misidentified as a mass-murdering White Supremacist, and he did it all for the lulz--but in all seriousness, he definitely deserves to have his own page, especially now that he has his own TV show (or at least, he's the star of it). Solntsa90 (talk) 21:24, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

The book

I've been thinking about adding a section dedicated to their upcoming book, How to BOMB the U.S. Gov't, however I have not been able to find enough sources to create anything worthwhile. The most I've come across is the Vapes.com pre-order page. Everything else is either from their Twitter, Reddit or Youtube accounts, which aren't really valid citations. Even their own website's page for HBUG is nothing more than a concept of the cover. Can anybody else find anything to work with, or should it only be added to the article after the book releases? 51.37.104.109 (talk) 10:47, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Status of MDE

If you've kept up with MDE into 2020, then it's clear that the trio (Sam, Nick, Charls) doesn't exist anymore. I know that MDE is used as a branding for Sam's 'Hydewars' content but it's just Sam. Nick is also present but Charls is considered to have left the group. Unfortunately, there aren't many sources that confirm that MDE is on a hiatus (or split up). The only two I have is from here describing MDE post World Peace and a podcast with Sam stating (at 1:17:30) that he'd wish that the group got back together. With that being said, should the article be updated to reflect the fact that MDE isn't active currently? JakeyPotter (talk) 09:12, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

it's back together since 2/19/2023 216.171.6.135 (talk) 03:08, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Lede

@Mrschimpf: reverted the edit I made to the lede without comment, so I want to discuss my issues with the current version here. The current version says "They are also controversial for their documented ties to alt-right, white supremacist and neo-fascist organizations." This is not supported by the sources(4,5,6), which mention controversy stemming from the cult status the show had among alt-right and white supremacist fans. "Neo-fascist" should be removed as fascism isn't mentioned in any source at all, neither are any ties to any organizations - the articles talk about individuals and message boards supporting them, not MDE having links to any organizations. Furthermore "white supremacist" for some reason is linked to the Wiki Page for "white supremacist terror in the United States" instead of the page for White Supremacy. Especially with living people being named in the preceding sentence, we should be really careful about claiming they're linked to domestic terrorism, given that none of the sources talk about anything like this. My proposed change to this sentence would be: "They are also controversial for their support by alt-right and white supremacist fans of the show." Since I am not a native speaker I would be grateful for any corrections and suggestions! RRorg (talk) 11:37, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

This claim has continually been removed without cause to the point of semi-protection of this page, and is well-sourced; at this point removing the text is considered vandalism and justifies rollback. Nate • (chatter) 19:08, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Then we should link the correct sources, because the ones given right now do not support this statement. Maybe we could even name the terrorist groups they're allegedly affiliated with? RRorg (talk) 13:20, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Sam Hyde's connections to the alt-right

An IP has been removing referenced material. I am neither knowledgeable nor bonded to the subject but leave this as a place for concerned editors to discuss rather than edit war. Ifnord (talk) 13:46, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

@Ifnord: If it was unsubstantiated the claim may be libelous. However, the sources pass verification, and I have added another from The Atlantic. It would seem to follow the claims, in effect, that he is associated with the alt-right, and the show was subject to controversy, can stay. If somebody associated with Mr Hyde is reading this and is concerned the article is libelous, the proper course is to contact the information team by emailing [email protected]. See more at WP:LEGAL. Local Variable (talk) 13:55, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

I've seen too many news outlets report objectively false claims to take any reporting on face value that is not backed up by evidence. I believe that is one thing if a reputable news outlets reported a claim that was backed up by evidence, but this claim is sourced back to BuzzFeed News, which is notoriously untrustworthy, and not proven by their own article which failed to provide evidence for their claims and used anonymous sources. So basically the source of MDE being alt-right is someone who doesn't want their name known. Seems suspicious to me. I'd like to see evidence demonstrated by reliable sources alone. Generally reliable sources are only part of the equation, the sources cited have to demonstrate the evidence for their claims. RockabillyRaccoon (talk) 06:39, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Charls Carroll is back in the group

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I’m not sure what the status of YouTube videos is as far as reliable sourcing goes, but the infobox listing of Charls Carroll as a former member is inaccurate, as he himself confirms here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLuwKRGCtvU 2603:7000:A900:D296:F903:15C5:953B:407A (talk) 03:00, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Charls Carrol "former member"

Charls Carrol himself confirmed that he would be back with MDE for "World Peace 2" He did this over YouTube, and no other site. So we cant link other sources, since they dont exist yet. Are YouTube sources banned in general from wikipedia? Sam Hyde has accepted him back in the group publically aswell, albeit over YouTube too. 62.88.254.66 (talk) 08:27, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 22 May 2023

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Charls Carroll is no longer a former member, he is back as a member of MDE as of early 2023 2601:243:C600:F540:1D1D:B8E7:EEF1:3863 (talk) 18:50, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 30 June 2023

Hyperlink "Nick Rochefort" to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Rochefort HiiipowerCandyman (talk) 06:15, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Article failed WP:GNG and WP:BIO hence is now a redirect back to this article. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 08:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 July 2023

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It says Charls Carrol is a former member of MDE when in fact, he has rejoined. Jp.r44200 (talk) 18:42, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

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Charls Carrol is an active member.

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He's listed as a former member but has been back for several months now. 2600:1017:B820:6A3D:84C:F865:CD25:574E (talk) 11:34, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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NPOV

Okay, let's apply this logic to other fanbases and say that furries are known for having sex with animals and Juggalos are known for being in gangs. Is this still neutral because there's sources alleging this or have we broken WP:NPOV yet? Tell me where the NPOV boundary is acceptable. You can literally find a source that says anything about anyone, the question is not whether someone online makes this statement but whether the statement is neutral, and it clearly isn't. 166.181.255.51 (talk) 03:39, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Also, Hyde told Dick Masterson that he didn't intend to attract racist fans. 166.181.255.51 (talk) 04:02, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia goes by reliable sources. The place to discuss how sources talk about furries and juggalos would be those articles' talk pages. Grayfell (talk) 05:42, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 May 2024

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The line "Million Dollar Extreme (MDE) was an American sketch comedy troupe known for their alt-right and white supremacist fans, cultivated by founder Sam Hyde." is inconducive to providing a neutral representation of the topic, especially when it's mentioned at the very beginning. My suggestion is to change "known for their alt-right and white supremacist fans" to "known for their controversial and transgressive comedy, garnering attention from many controversial communities including the alt-right movement."

I think the part "cultivated by Sam Hyde" should be deleted altogether, as it comes off as biased and accusatory despite there being no evidence of this individual explicitly or implicitly trying to garner this sort of community. Pred.exe (talk) 22:21, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Not done This is your only post, suggesting either you've been here before or you LLM'ed this rationale as part of a canvassing effort from who knows where. If you get neutral a source, go ahead and add it like I've asked so many times before. Otherwise, have a nice evening. Nate • (chatter) 22:57, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lede

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The lede has clear bias issues that I've attempted to amend in good faith.

1. "Cultivated" is a poor verb choice; there is no evidence or source to suggest that Sam Hyde has a hand in personally curating his fanbase so I don't see the need for a loaded, transitive verb.

2. "known for their alt-right and white supremacist fans" in the very first sentence of the article is questionable. The group is known for having a show commissioned on the AdultSwim network; that is, after all, the grounds for their notability for a Wikipedia article. Their (partly) alt-right and white supremacist fanbase is not what they are most known for, not basis for an article in itself, and should be treated as subordinate information. Gravyd2 (talk) 13:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Reverted, as you framed the paragraph, despite the sources, as Hyde's politics being a mere 'side hustle' that never permeated into the group and that he somehow told his fans 'everything we say in our work is parody and not our real views' and that the other members had no idea about these views at all; there is an entire series and several sources, along with countless online presences that disprove this whitewashing. I am asking for one source disproving any of this. Not from YouTube. Not from Gumroad. Not from some anonymous forum. This has been asked for several years and yet nobody wants to seem to bring a source with them and just wants to reframe the paragraph with zero discussion outside this 'edit and run' talk post to alledge 'consensus' and call it a day. And usually from editors I suspect know exactly what they're doing. We deal in facts. End of. Nate • (chatter) 16:12, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Hey @MrScrimpf I think it's actually you who is not editing in good faith here.

• "Hyde's politics being a mere 'side hustle" - Didn't say that. I said it's not what this troupe was most known for. Would they merit an article on the back of their alt-right/WS views alone? No, of course not. So why is that in the lede?

• "that the other members had no idea about these views at all" - Didn't say that either.

• "I am asking for one source disproving any of this" - So not only do you want me to prove a negative, but one that I'm not even claiming.

I'm not going to win an edit war so if you want to engage the points I actually made (not the ones you imagined), feel free. They are not apologetic. I don't like Sam and think he is at the very least alt-right, and probably a lot worse Gravyd2 (talk) 19:13, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

It's pretty hard to assume good faith when you say that you think that a guy who openly donated thousands of dollars to a neo-nazi is alt-right. The topic is now notable because of its ties to white supremacism. Whatever it used to be known for is a distraction that only serves to whitewash the article. Grayfell (talk) 20:10, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The fact remains that a large portion of the page is factually inaccurate.

First, setting aside the description of the group's politics and the assertion that they're known for those politics, MDE is not inactive and Charls Carroll is a member. These are verifiable facts -- look at social media, visit their website, attend a show of their national sketch comedy tour [1], or, hell, see clips from the group's ongoing projects [2] -- but I suppose it's true that the New York Times hasn't written about them. I understand the reliable sources guidelines are what they are, but the inaccurate claims of the group's inactivity and current membership are also unsourced. One has to wonder what it accomplishes to leave up obviously false information for which no citations exist.

Second, turning to the lede and the description of the group being known for white-nationalist politics, it's not clear this is justified by up-to-date reliably sourced information. The article itself does not feature sources justifying the assertion about what the group is known for; the Washington Post story, for instance, focuses on the transgressive nature of their humor, and the critical reception again discusses the nature of their comedy rather than its political bent. So the lede risks being internally inconsistent with the material downwind. The most recent RS mentions I can see is this 2022 article in UnHerd about Hyde [3], which describes the show as "represent[ing] an evolution in sketch comedy aesthetics beyond the tamer territory staked out by its obvious inspiration" but says it attracted critics due to "edgy, uncomfortable humour." That's a far cry from the language in the current article. But some people have more time to invest than others, and when they decide to apply that time to winning arcane fights, the truth suffers. C'est la vie. Seventysixtrombones (talk) 01:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

As Bishonen asserts, we've done this before and I'm not going to beat this dead horse with another sock of whoever you are. And yes, I TLDR'ed this AI pink slime you had ChatGPT spit out. Nate • (chatter) 16:14, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 8 August 2024

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Change 'was' to 'is' in the following line:

'Million Dollar Extreme (MDE) was an American sketch comedy troupe known for their alt-right and white…' Stoogeburger25 (talk) 21:33, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. CloakedFerret (talk) 21:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Look for the 'WORLD PEACE 2 "MICRO SNEAK PEAK" TRAILER' on YouTube. Stoogeburger25 (talk) 00:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Uploaded ten months ago, not current, and as re-iterated multiple times YouTube is not a reliable source. If I could create an auto-responder for this specific talk page I would because everyone seems to forget that with every single edit request. Nate • (chatter) 16:09, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

How does WP:ABOUTSELF not apply here? DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 04:19, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Points 1 and 5 for one; in over a year and a half there has not been any kind of outside sourcing for anything outside their own promotion. At the very least there should at least be a couple neutral sources, but none have been presented and its incumbent on the editor to present one. Also OPs comeback was this so at this point I refuse to assume good faith with them. Nate • (chatter) 20:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Your arguments do not invalidate these points. For the first point, I posted multiple clips of the troupe speaking and performing together. This does nothing but cement the claim that they are still performing as a group.

As for the fifth point, the article is not predicated on this claim. This was a simple present-tense change to a single word. Stoogeburger25 (talk) 22:48, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Please provide a reliable source that supports the current text. "The group has been inactive since the cancellation of their show World Peace in 2016" is totally unsourced. This is just unjustifiable status quo bias dressed up in Wikipediese. Seventysixtrombones (talk) 05:48, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I've removed a personal attack by the above editor and given them a 31 hour block for that and other PAs. Note that both the OP and this editor are new. The OP has never posted elsewhere and Seventysixtrombones's first post was here. Doug Weller talk 07:37, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the unsourced sentence in the lede, as it appears nobody can find RS saying the group is inactive. Seventysixtrombones (talk) 04:02, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Again, reverted. Unless you have a neutral source, you are not to change article content. Read WP:RS before editing again. Nate • (chatter) 17:48, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

No source justifies the sentence. Leaving it up doesn't make sense. Read WP:RS before responding to me again. Seventysixtrombones (talk) 04:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

As @Bishonen: inferred, you've clearly been here before and any further disruption will lead to a further block as you refuse to get the point and are now into the childish game of copying my responses instead of complying with policy. This was closed a week ago and that you continue to persist beyond that without presenting a new source is tiresome. @Doug Weller: Nate • (chatter) 19:33, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Brother, I haven't been here before; as I said, my account is new and my first. Please get that WP:POINT through your head. Also, no, the discussion that was closed a week ago pertained to the troupe's alleged notoriety for white nationalist fans, not to their (incorrect) claimed inactive status, a claim for which no source currently exists. I understand these are complex matters, but you're an experienced editor and it shouldn't be too hard to consider two distinct matters at once. Seventysixtrombones (talk) 19:40, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm done responding to someone who thinks calling me 'brother' or an intellectual slur without asking if it's okay is proper decorum (along with being unable to lay off the LLM). Have a nice day. Nate • (chatter) 19:45, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm done responding to someone who thinks calumniating me a as sockpuppet or an LLM-bot without asking if it's true is proper decorum (along with being unable to distinguish between the group's inactivity and their fanbase's politics). Have a lovely evening. Seventysixtrombones (talk) 19:52, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

...Honestly, this is out of my league, but please listen to him, and drop the stick. This is getting repetitive to me. mer764KCTV5 / Cospaw the Wolfo (He/Him | t • c) 19:57, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Re: Was/Is + Dodging Epistemic Collapse

Looks like they did a show in D.C. on Aug 22, 2024.

I think we can probably agree that eventbrite.com "has a reputation for fact-checking and reliability" in regard to selling tickets to shows that exist.

Talk page first because this is obviously already a topic of discussion.

ClifV (talk) 16:11, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Issuing an IPO has nothing at all to do with fact checking and accuracy, and the ticket listing is a WP:PRIMARY source for a single event which lacks context. Without a good source for their recent activity, there's not much to say about this. Grayfell (talk) 18:36, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

What context are you looking for here other than, as stated in the source, Sam Hyde, Nick Rochefort, and Charles Carroll performed under the name Million Dollar Extreme under a month ago? ClifV (talk) 18:40, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

You need a secondary source, plain and simple. I went looking. I don't see one. I don't actually see any recent reliable sources that mention the group as a separate entity - the sources I'm seeing only use the phrase "Million Dollar Extreme" as a shorthand descriptor of the show "Million Dollar Extreme Presents: World Peace". THis raises the possibility that, while the show is notable enough for an article (it has one), the term "Million Dollar Extreme" may not be. If this article were presented for deletion, and the deletion discussion proposed that this content be merged into the show's article, I would support that. Fred Zepelin (talk) 18:50, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Concur with Fred; if someone actually wrote about the show neutrally, there we go, that's acceptable. A show's ticket site, as I have said many times in the past with removing their Gumroad as they refuse to bother with a regular website with an about us page, is not acceptable in itself as an RS. And in August 2024, surely someone out there would write about this performance, unless they required everyone to throw their phones in Yonder pouches and required an NDA to watch the show under threat of a lawsuit if they revealed anything about it, but there are no sources outside that one (or RSS aggregators just going right back to the same page) to be found. Nate • (chatter) 19:46, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

"White Supremacist" Short Description

@Grayfell

You need reliable sources that describe the subject as white supremacist to include it in the short description.

Additionally, the short description should "as far as possible... use universally accepted facts that will not be subject to rapid change, avoiding anything that could be understood as controversial, judgemental, or promotional".

ClifV (talk) 18:35, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

This is well-sourced and treated by those sources as a defining trait. Wikipedia isn't a platform for public relations. Grayfell (talk) 18:37, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Which source(s) describes it as white supremacist? ClifV (talk) 18:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

If you are unable to read the sources in the article that follow that description in the body, then you should not be editing the article. Grayfell is not here to be your Wikipedia tutor. Fred Zepelin (talk) 18:45, 20 September 2024 (UTC)