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Change in Historical Views: Talmud

I made a change in Historical Views: Talmud. It was written there: He [Elijah] answered him, 'This is what he said to thee, To-day, if ye will hear his voice.'

"if ye will hear his voice" is not the meaning of the sentence. It is a sentence taken from a verse in Psalms 95;7: "today if you will listen to his voice".

The true meaning of the sentence is "listen to his voice", it is also the only right translation there is.

It means to obey, to listen to what G-d says to you and do what he tells you to. Not to hear his voice.

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Second Temple period and apocalypticism

I think that this section needs some serious updating. Since the 2000's, scholars have argued that Christianity is deeply rooted in Jewish messianism. The aricle now says:

The majority of Second Temple texts have no reference to an individual end-time Messiah.^[1]

References

^ Origins of Apocalypticism in Judaism and Christianity: Volume 3 – Page 224 John J. Collins, Bernard McGinn – 2000 "That is, the vast majority of Second Temple Jewish texts have no reference to a messianic leader of the end-time. ... the Damascus Document, the Rule of the Congregation, the Commentary on Genesisa, 4Q521 (Messianic Apocalypse), ..."

Compare this to:

William Horbury (1998), Jewish messianism and the cult of Christ:

There were more messianic beliefs in Judaism at the time of Jesus than is commonly supposed.

Google Scholar 197 citations

William Horbury (2016), Messianism Among Jews and Christians: Biblical and Historical Studies; Google Scholar 70 citations
David Flusser (2009), Judaism of the Second Temple Period: Sages and Literature, chapter 18, Jewish Messianism Reflected in the Early Church
Andrew Chester (2007), Messiah and Exaltation: Jewish Messianic and Visionary Traditions and New Testament Christology, p.394-395):

...for Paul, Jesus is clearly a figure of the heavenly world, and thus fits a messianic category already developed within Judaism, where the Messiah is a human or angelic figure belonging…in the heavenly world, a figure who at the same time has had a specific, limited role on earth

R. J. Zwi Werblowsky (1987), MESSIANISM: JEWISH MESSIANISM, Encyclopedia of Religion:

The messianic doctrines that developed during the second half of the Second Temple period from approximately 220 bce to 70 ce (also called the "intertestamentary" period)

Larry Hurtado, Paul’s Messianic Christology:

the christology and devotional stance that Paul affirmed (and shared with others in the early Jesus-movement) was not a departure from or a transcending of a supposedly monochrome Jewish messianism, but, instead, a distinctive expression within a variegated body of Jewish messianic hopes. In this paper, applying text-critical categories as a model, I first propose that we view Paul’s “christology” and devotional stance as comprising a particular and remarkable variant-form of Jewish messianism among the diversity of messianic figures and beliefs reflected in second-temple Jewish texts. I then discuss features that made it a distinctive and noteworthy expression of Jewish messianism.

To use a text-critical analogy, just as there was a textual pluriformity in biblical writings in the second-temple period (evident in the biblical manuscripts from Qumran), so there was a pluriformity in Jewish messianic hopes and figures; and I contend that Paul’s beliefs about Jesus constitute an especially noteworthy instance of that diversity.1

[note 1]: See, e.g., John J. Collins, The Scepter and the Star: The Messiahs of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Other Ancient Literature (New York: Doubleday, 1995), who posits “four distinct messianic paradigms”: “king, priest, prophet, and heavenly messiah or Son of Man” (195). “There were different messianic paradigms, not one composite concept of Messiah” (196). But he also notes that there were occasionally instances of the merging of two or more of these paradigms, forming “a composite figure” (195). See also Adela Yarbro Collins and John J. Collins, King and Messiah as Son of God: Divine, Human, and Angelic Messianic Figures in biblical and Related Literature (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2008); Andrew Chester, Messiah and Exaltation: Jewish Messianic and Visionary Traditions and New Testament Christology (WUNT 207; Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2007), esp. 191 -327, 329-63, who judged “it is not possible to speak of a single form of messianic expectation or concept . . .; instead, we have to reckon with a variety of different kinds of beliefs and figures” (355).

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:34, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Scriptural requirements

@Wallingfordtoday, PiCo, Epinoia, and Tgeorgescu: Messiah in Judaism#Scriptural requirements is about Christian interpretations, isn't it? Compare Moody Handbook of Theology. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:23, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That entire section looks like OR to me. PiCo (talk) 00:38, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- Sorry, but I am not well-informed enough on Messiah in Judaism to make any kind of significant contribution - but thanks for thinking of me - Epinoia (talk) 23:44, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Page needs rework

Dear Editors who read this,

Feel this page has way too much focus not on Judaism, but its relationship with christianity. Feel Jewish aspects should be turned up whereas christian aspects should be toned down. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 02:57, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Need for overhaul

Dear All,

As I see it, this page needs major overhaul. The information on this page was written by those with little understanding. See sections where it mentioned beliefs that gathering of Jews before building of third Temple. Correct order is building of temple and then gathering of Jews. With regard to those minor factual edits will be changing. With regard to more major decisions, such as removing content should probably wait a couble days before changing it.

Reason for these views is that messianism in Judaism is not well understood, even by the scholarly both secular and religious. The only text which compiled a systemic commentary on Maimonedes last two chapters which deal with Messiah and messianic era, just came out last year and is currently only available in hebrew. Maimonedes is the only authority in Jewish Law who rules on laws of Messiah and Messianic Era. The commentary is entitled "Dvar Malchus Chidushim U'Biurim Be'Hilchos Melochim Le'HoRambam Prokim 11-12" ISBN: 978-1-893855-09-0. I have been studying this for past year and have some familiarity with basic concepts. The previous writers had a general vague knowledge of some details, but lacked a systematic overview of the concept. I intend to address this in coming weeks with editing of just basic concepts such as Two periods in the Messianic era and other concepts. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 04:28, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Overhaul

Dear All,

I propose we revamp article according to this format.

1. Meaning of term Messiah. 2.Role of Messiah in Judaism.

2.1 Restoring Judaism's 613 commandments
2.2 Qualifications for Messiah
2.3 Messiah's effect on World.

3. How does Messiah come/ Two-Eras of Messiah. (Not yet finalized exact wording)

3.1 Non-Meritorious State-by Year 6000
3.2 Meritorious state.

4. Put in history of Messiah according to Jewish biblical sources. (This is Messiah in Judaism, will have separate section for christianity). 5. Judaic Messianism and christianity

5.1 all the christian stuff
5.2 Judaism's rejection of Jesus as Messiah.

6. Contemporary Jewish Views era).

6.1 Orthodox
 6.1.1 Hassidic/Chabad
 6.1.2 Non-Hasidic/Litvak.
6.2 Non-Orthodox
 6.2.1 Reform
 6.2.2 Conservative

7. Notes 8. References 9. Sources 10. Further Readings 11. External Links

Please comment on any suggestions to this proposed structure.

Blessings,

Yaakov W.

[1] Origins of Apocalypticism in Judaism and Christianity: Volume 3 – Page 224 John J. Collins, Bernard McGinn – 2000 "That is, the vast majority of Second Temple Jewish texts have no reference to a messianic leader of the end-time. ... the Damascus Document, the Rule of the Congregation, the Commentary on Genesisa, 4Q521 (Messianic Apocalypse), ..."

[1]