Talk:Messiah in Judaism

Change in Historical Views: Talmud

I made a change in Historical Views: Talmud. It was written there: He [Elijah] answered him, 'This is what he said to thee, To-day, if ye will hear his voice.'

"if ye will hear his voice" is not the meaning of the sentence. It is a sentence taken from a verse in Psalms 95;7: "today if you will listen to his voice".

The true meaning of the sentence is "listen to his voice", it is also the only right translation there is.

It means to obey, to listen to what G-d says to you and do what he tells you to. Not to hear his voice.

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Messiah in Judaism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20021220182918/http://www.moshiach.com/discover/tutorials/moshiach_ben_yossef.php to http://www.moshiach.com/discover/tutorials/moshiach_ben_yossef.php
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060118114058/http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ideas_belief/afterlife/AE_Messianism_TO/AE_Messiah.htm to http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ideas_belief/afterlife/AE_Messianism_TO/AE_Messiah.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:09, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Messiah in Judaism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150812001753/http://people.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/J_Transp/J05_Messiah.html to http://people.ucalgary.ca/~Elsegal/J_Transp/J05_Messiah.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:42, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Second Temple period and apocalypticism

I think that this section needs some serious updating. Since the 2000's, scholars have argued that Christianity is deeply rooted in Jewish messianism. The aricle now says:

The majority of Second Temple texts have no reference to an individual end-time Messiah.

References

Compare this to:

• William Horbury (1998), Jewish messianism and the cult of Christ:

There were more messianic beliefs in Judaism at the time of Jesus than is commonly supposed.

Google Scholar 197 citations

• William Horbury (2016), Messianism Among Jews and Christians: Biblical and Historical Studies; Google Scholar 70 citations
• David Flusser (2009), Judaism of the Second Temple Period: Sages and Literature, chapter 18, Jewish Messianism Reflected in the Early Church
• Andrew Chester (2007), Messiah and Exaltation: Jewish Messianic and Visionary Traditions and New Testament Christology, p.394-395):

...for Paul, Jesus is clearly a figure of the heavenly world, and thus fits a messianic category already developed within Judaism, where the Messiah is a human or angelic figure belonging…in the heavenly world, a figure who at the same time has had a specific, limited role on earth

• R. J. Zwi Werblowsky (1987), MESSIANISM: JEWISH MESSIANISM, Encyclopedia of Religion:

The messianic doctrines that developed during the second half of the Second Temple period from approximately 220 bce to 70 ce (also called the "intertestamentary" period)

• Larry Hurtado, Paul’s Messianic Christology:

the christology and devotional stance that Paul affirmed (and shared with others in the early Jesus-movement) was not a departure from or a transcending of a supposedly monochrome Jewish messianism, but, instead, a distinctive expression within a variegated body of Jewish messianic hopes. In this paper, applying text-critical categories as a model, I first propose that we view Paul’s “christology” and devotional stance as comprising a particular and remarkable variant-form of Jewish messianism among the diversity of messianic figures and beliefs reflected in second-temple Jewish texts. I then discuss features that made it a distinctive and noteworthy expression of Jewish messianism.

To use a text-critical analogy, just as there was a textual pluriformity in biblical writings in the second-temple period (evident in the biblical manuscripts from Qumran), so there was a pluriformity in Jewish messianic hopes and figures; and I contend that Paul’s beliefs about Jesus constitute an especially noteworthy instance of that diversity.1

[note 1]: See, e.g., John J. Collins, The Scepter and the Star: The Messiahs of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Other Ancient Literature (New York: Doubleday, 1995), who posits “four distinct messianic paradigms”: “king, priest, prophet, and heavenly messiah or Son of Man” (195). “There were different messianic paradigms, not one composite concept of Messiah” (196). But he also notes that there were occasionally instances of the merging of two or more of these paradigms, forming “a composite figure” (195). See also Adela Yarbro Collins and John J. Collins, King and Messiah as Son of God: Divine, Human, and Angelic Messianic Figures in biblical and Related Literature (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2008); Andrew Chester, Messiah and Exaltation: Jewish Messianic and Visionary Traditions and New Testament Christology (WUNT 207; Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2007), esp. 191 -327, 329-63, who judged “it is not possible to speak of a single form of messianic expectation or concept . . .; instead, we have to reckon with a variety of different kinds of beliefs and figures” (355).

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:34, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Scriptural requirements

@Wallingfordtoday, PiCo, Epinoia, and Tgeorgescu: Messiah in Judaism#Scriptural requirements is about Christian interpretations, isn't it? Compare Moody Handbook of Theology. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:23, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

That entire section looks like OR to me. PiCo (talk) 00:38, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

- Sorry, but I am not well-informed enough on Messiah in Judaism to make any kind of significant contribution - but thanks for thinking of me - Epinoia (talk) 23:44, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Page needs rework

Dear Editors who read this,

Feel this page has way too much focus not on Judaism, but its relationship with christianity. Feel Jewish aspects should be turned up whereas christian aspects should be toned down. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 02:57, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Need for overhaul

Dear All,

As I see it, this page needs major overhaul. The information on this page was written by those with little understanding. See sections where it mentioned beliefs that gathering of Jews before building of third Temple. Correct order is building of temple and then gathering of Jews. With regard to those minor factual edits will be changing. With regard to more major decisions, such as removing content should probably wait a couble days before changing it.

Reason for these views is that messianism in Judaism is not well understood, even by the scholarly both secular and religious. The only text which compiled a systemic commentary on Maimonedes last two chapters which deal with Messiah and messianic era, just came out last year and is currently only available in hebrew. Maimonedes is the only authority in Jewish Law who rules on laws of Messiah and Messianic Era. The commentary is entitled "Dvar Malchus Chidushim U'Biurim Be'Hilchos Melochim Le'HoRambam Prokim 11-12" ISBN: 978-1-893855-09-0. I have been studying this for past year and have some familiarity with basic concepts. The previous writers had a general vague knowledge of some details, but lacked a systematic overview of the concept. I intend to address this in coming weeks with editing of just basic concepts such as Two periods in the Messianic era and other concepts. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 04:28, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Yaakov Wa.– please support your changes with citations to reliable sources (WP:RS) – the content you added about, "enabling the Jewish people to observe all 613 commandments" is not supported by either of the sources cited – content without citations counts as original research, see WP:NOR – "Even if you are sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it" per WP:VERIFY – cheers, Epinoia (talk) 04:43, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Dear Epinoia,

Check Maimonides Hilchos Melachim 11:1 Where it states "Then in his days all the statutes will return to their previous state... according to all their particulars as described by the Torah". Translation from Moznaim/ Eliyahu Tougar. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 05:29, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Proposed Overhaul

Dear All,

I propose we revamp article according to this format.

1. Brief description of Jewish Messiah.

2.Role of Messiah in Judaism.

2.1 Restoring Judaism's 613 commandments
2.2 Qualifications for Messiah
 2.2.1 Qualifications for Presumptive Messiah
 2.2.2 Qualifications for Definite Messiah.
 2.2.3 Disqualification factors for (Presumptive?) Messiah.
2.3 Messiah's effect on World.
 2.3.1 Effect on Jews
 2.3.2 Effect on non-Jews
 2.3.3 Effect on physical world

3. How does Messiah come/ Two-Eras of Messiah. (Not yet finalized exact wording)

3.1 Non-Meritorious State-by Year 6000
3.2 Meritorious state.

4. Mashiach Ben David vs. Mashiach Ben Yosef (Joseph?),

5. Etymology.

6. Put in history of Messiah according to Jewish biblical sources. (This is Messiah in Judaism, will have separate section for christianity).

7. Judaic Messianism and christianity

7.1 all the christian stuff
7.2 Judaism's rejection of Jesus as Messiah. 

8. Contemporary Jewish Views era).

8.1 Orthodox
 8.1.1 Hassidic/Chabad
 8.1.2 Non-Hasidic/Litvak.
8.2 Non-Orthodox
 8.2.1 Reform
 8.2.2 Conservative

9. See also

10. Notes

11. References

12. Sources

13. Further Readings

14. External Links

Please comment on any suggestions to this proposed structure.

Blessings,

Yaakov W.

p.s. If no comments by 2/23/21, will start overhaul process.

– there should be a "See also" section before Notes – cheers, Epinoia (talk) 14:44, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Dear Epinoia,

Done Yaakov Wa. (talk) 15:11, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Regarding your suggested section 2 above, especially "2.1 Restoring Judaism's 613 commandments" - what is your Reliable Source for this initial statement, before anything else? Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 19:14, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Dear Warshy,

The source is Maimonedes Hilchos Melachim chapter 11:1. Where it states (translation from Moznaim/ Eliyahu Tougar) "In the future, the Messianic King will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will build the Temple and gather the dispersed of Israel. Then, in his days, [the observance of] all the statutes will return to their previous state. We will offer sacrifices, observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee year according to all their particulars as described by the Torah".

Blessings,

Yaakov Waronker

p.s. Take a look at this article where it briefly goes over this concept. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1122357/jewish/Resumption-of-Suspended-Mitzvot.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaakov Wa. (talk • contribs) 19:24, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

I had a suspicion you may be coming from Chabad sources, which for me are biased sources to begin with. As for the suggested "613 commandments" to begin with, Maimonides does not refer to them in this manner. The proper way to use Maimonides (which should be in the article, no doubt about that) is to directly quote Maimonides giving his complete description of the Messianic age in translation, precisely as you have done above. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 19:31, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Request for assistance

Dear all (Especially speaking to frequent editors (in no particular order): Epinoia, Joshua Jonathan, Tgeorgescu, Warshy, Editor2020, 2600:8805:9200:11c0:d00a:2689:49bc:cddf.),

Since I am looking to do a major overhaul of this article in a couple of days there are a couple of points I want to be clear about.

1. I am not very knowledgeable about how to cite stuff. Meaning that when I do start to revamp sections there will probably be a lot of statements without sources yet, although not OR. Can you please ask me for the source in the talk section and I will provide it within approximately 24 hours (except for Shabbos and Jewish Holidays)? Along these lines, is it possible that you can help out be putting in the sources/references into wikipedia? It will be a enormous undertaking which I don't have the time to effectively accomplish yet.

2. Regards to how we are going to revamp the article: There are two ways which I have thought of so far.

2.1 We can blank out whole article and start adding section by section in. Advantages: We get cleaner and more organized info in. Disadvantages, a lot of info is concealed for time being.
2.2 We can start adding in sections and slowly replacing it. Advantage: It has info. Disadvantage: Will be extremely disorganized and messy. 

I am personally leaning towards option 1. Please give any feedback or suggestions as to how you believe the best process going forward is. I predict this overhaul will take about 1 month of work.

Blessings,

Yaakov Waronker Yaakov Wa. (talk) 18:44, 21 February 2021 (UTC)